{"id":151309,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016271f5071b9de01f66f0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94b17bc107fd8b3f6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:41:08 - 12:45:51","影片長度":"00:04:43","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":283,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:45:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:41:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時41分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了，午安。今天討論一下學校退場條例跟技職教育的一些問題，第一個，現在私校退場基本上就是針對營運不善的學校嘛。"],["潘部長文忠：因為它有幾個指標。"],["牛委員煦庭：為了避免它影響教育品質嘛，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以由政府介入的角度來要求它退場，但本席有接到一些陳情啦，當然就在這個地方跟部長做個討論。現在私校解散清算之後的財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金嘛，要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校，等於就充公的概念。有一種說法是這樣，其實當初大家都是為了興學，私人興學其實有它們的理想性，有些學校營運不善當然應該退場，這本席完全同意，但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯，它會希望透過整併或擴大的方式來處理，所以有沒有可能在財產歸屬的部分也開放私立學校的學校法人變成捐贈對象？對於這樣的說法，我想先聽一聽教育部的意見。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，當時退場條例在上一屆大院委員會這邊充分討論，為了這個歸屬的問題，當時最後決議了還是以歸公……"],["牛委員煦庭：還是以歸公為主。"],["潘部長文忠：目前這是在法規所設的，因為當時如委員剛才所提的，也有很多不同學校提出各種不同的想法，但是條例定下來是歸公。"],["牛委員煦庭：我同意你們現在依法行政，這沒有問題。那我要問政策方向，因為現在按照你的報告來講，真的走到這個退場條例而且把它走完的學校其實很少，對不對？而且滿多在中間就卡那個地方，其實對於教育品質影響是很大的！所以這一部分看教育部是不是會後來努力？因為前面有一個討論的……"],["潘部長文忠：我這樣講，如果不是進到退場，因為退場後疑義就多了。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，退場後爭議多嘛。"],["潘部長文忠：如果在過程當中，其實現在很多私校彼此之間去做，本身依法是可行的，但是不能進到……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你希望不要走到退場的階段再來做這件事情。"],["潘部長文忠：對！所以它應該提前去思考這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考，主要以加快退場的速度啦！因為我們現在很擔心，有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段就沒有辦法前進，那對學生也好、教師作為受僱者的勞工權益也受到影響，這都不是件好事，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果你有一個輔導的機制可以預警或其他等等，讓它早一點處理完這個事情，可以處理掉這個事情當然很好；但如果不行的話，是不是再做一些思考跟討論？"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是第一個問題。第二個問題是，很多私校走的是技職體系，本席滿關心技職體系的發展，特別是有關產學合作的這個部分，現行技術及職業教育法第九條第二項只有規定讓職涯的認識跟探索列入國小跟國中的課綱，就是知道有這條路存在，高中最多只是安排到企業跟產業參訪，要求宣導說明活動，但我們有發現，如果你真的走了技職這一條路的話，根據專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法，就可以辦理產學合作或是校外實習，那當然就要簽所謂的契約，原則上要符合勞基法的規定，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則，但本席有點擔心啦，希望教育部先做一個資料的蒐集，在現行的規定下，保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的。比如專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法第六條之一第一項第六款有講實習期滿前有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這件事情，可是針對產學合作，萬一中間出了一些狀況、出現一些爭端的時候，它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的程序，所以我要求針對這個東西，針對產學合作的部分做一個檢討，看看有沒有哪些地方，也許是工時，也許是爭端處理的一些機制，有沒有哪些部分應該要優於勞動基準法的一些條件，讓學生在產學合作的過程中被充分地保護，也讓他們充分地具有勞工意識，我想這是有助於技職體系順利落地滿重要的一件事情，所以這兩件事情希望教育部會後提供一些資料，好不好？讓我們作後續的研究跟討論。"],["潘部長文忠：好，我對委員有一個請求。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["潘部長文忠：委員剛才講到的建教合作、實習等等，有一些反映的意見，如果委員方便，也可以給我們參考一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我今天的這份資料，同樣用書面的方式發給你，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：對，我們這樣做一些檢視會比較聚焦。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣就會非常清楚，兩個題目，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：OK。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就麻煩教育部提供資料，謝謝你。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。剛剛牛煦庭委員也提出他的書面報告了。","接下來我們請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151309","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151309","tool":"pyannote","id":"151309-pyannote"},"job_id":"dZ1iYr0oyJDMLyVu","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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00:00:47,819\n所以說由政府介入的角度來要求他來做退場但這本席有接到一些陳情當然就在這個地方來跟部長做個討論就是說現在私校解散清篡之後的這個財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校等於就是充公的一個概念那有一種說法是這樣就是說\n\n3\n00:00:49,000 --> 00:01:12,701\n其實當初大家都是為了興學那私人興學其實他們有他們的理想性那有些學校營運不善當然應該退場這本席完全同意但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯然後他會希望說我透過整併或擴大的方式來處理所以說有沒有可能就是說在這個財產歸屬的部分也開放所謂的私立學校的學校法人變成一個捐贈的一個對象要這樣的一個說法我想先聽一聽教育部的意見\n\n4\n00:01:13,647 --> 00:01:41,102\n我跟委員報告因為這個當時退場條例在我們上一屆大院這邊委員會是大家充分的討論為了這個就歸屬的問題當時最後決議了就是還是以歸功還是以歸功為主那目前這是在法規所設的因為當時這些如委員剛才所提的也有很多不同的學校也有提出各種不同的想法但是條例定下來是歸功\n\n5\n00:01:42,062 --> 00:02:07,839\n我同意你們現在依法行政這沒有問題但我要問政策方向因為現在按照你的報告來講真的走到這個所謂的退場條例然後把走完的學校其實很少對不對而且蠻多其實在中間就卡在那個地方那其實對於教育品質的影響是很大的所以說這一部分看教育部是不是會後來因為他你前面有一個討論的我現在講如果不是進到退場啦也就是說因為退場後一億就多了對退場後就增多嘛\n\n6\n00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:14,222\n所以他應該提前去思考這個問題我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考主要以加快退場的速度因為我們現在就很擔心就是說有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段然後他就沒有辦法前進學生也好教師作為受僱者其實勞工權也受到影響這都不是件好事\n\n7\n00:02:36,370 --> 00:02:53,695\n所以如果你有一個輔導的機制可以讓他預警或怎麼樣讓他早一點處理完這個事可以處理一下這事情當然很好但如果不行的話是不是可以再做一些思考跟討論這是第一個問題第二個問題是很多私校走的是技職體系那北京一般關心技職體系的一個發展特別是有關於產學合作的這一個部分\n\n8\n00:02:54,876 --> 00:03:09,312\n現行這個技術及職業教育法9條2項只有規定就是說讓職涯的認識跟探索列入這個國小跟國中的課綱就是知道有這條路存在那高中只是說安排最多到安排企業參訪跟這個產業參訪要求宣導說明活動\n\n9\n00:03:13,416 --> 00:03:26,391\n但我們有發現那到了你如果真的走了技職這一條路的話根據專科以上學校產學合作事實辦法就可以辦理產學合作或者是校外實習那當然就要簽所謂的契約原則上要符合勞基法的規定嘛對不對這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則啦\n\n10\n00:03:28,413 --> 00:03:44,015\n但本期有點擔心啦希望教育部先做一個資料的一個收集就是說在現行的規定下保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的比如說這個專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法六條一項六條之一一項六款有講\n\n11\n00:03:45,557 --> 00:03:58,225\n實習起碼你有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這種事情可是針對產學合作萬一中間出了一些狀況出現一些爭端的時候它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的一個程序的所以我要求針對這個東西針對產學合作的部分\n\n12\n00:04:00,726 --> 00:04:01,707\n我跟委員一個請求若委員有\n\n13\n00:04:24,468 --> 00:04:24,508\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6722\t9025\t謝謝主席 潘部長有請好 請部長委員好部長辛苦了 午安今天討論一下學校退場條例跟即時教育的一些問題現在私校退場基本上就是針對營運不善的學校因為它有幾個指標為了避免它影響教育品質\n27262\t47819\t所以說由政府介入的角度來要求他來做退場但這本席有接到一些陳情當然就在這個地方來跟部長做個討論就是說現在私校解散清篡之後的這個財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校等於就是充公的一個概念那有一種說法是這樣就是說\n49000\t72701\t其實當初大家都是為了興學那私人興學其實他們有他們的理想性那有些學校營運不善當然應該退場這本席完全同意但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯然後他會希望說我透過整併或擴大的方式來處理所以說有沒有可能就是說在這個財產歸屬的部分也開放所謂的私立學校的學校法人變成一個捐贈的一個對象要這樣的一個說法我想先聽一聽教育部的意見\n73647\t101102\t我跟委員報告因為這個當時退場條例在我們上一屆大院這邊委員會是大家充分的討論為了這個就歸屬的問題當時最後決議了就是還是以歸功還是以歸功為主那目前這是在法規所設的因為當時這些如委員剛才所提的也有很多不同的學校也有提出各種不同的想法但是條例定下來是歸功\n102062\t127839\t我同意你們現在依法行政這沒有問題但我要問政策方向因為現在按照你的報告來講真的走到這個所謂的退場條例然後把走完的學校其實很少對不對而且蠻多其實在中間就卡在那個地方那其實對於教育品質的影響是很大的所以說這一部分看教育部是不是會後來因為他你前面有一個討論的我現在講如果不是進到退場啦也就是說因為退場後一億就多了對退場後就增多嘛\n128880\t134222\t所以他應該提前去思考這個問題我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考主要以加快退場的速度因為我們現在就很擔心就是說有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段然後他就沒有辦法前進學生也好教師作為受僱者其實勞工權也受到影響這都不是件好事\n156370\t173695\t所以如果你有一個輔導的機制可以讓他預警或怎麼樣讓他早一點處理完這個事可以處理一下這事情當然很好但如果不行的話是不是可以再做一些思考跟討論這是第一個問題第二個問題是很多私校走的是技職體系那北京一般關心技職體系的一個發展特別是有關於產學合作的這一個部分\n174876\t189312\t現行這個技術及職業教育法9條2項只有規定就是說讓職涯的認識跟探索列入這個國小跟國中的課綱就是知道有這條路存在那高中只是說安排最多到安排企業參訪跟這個產業參訪要求宣導說明活動\n193416\t206391\t但我們有發現那到了你如果真的走了技職這一條路的話根據專科以上學校產學合作事實辦法就可以辦理產學合作或者是校外實習那當然就要簽所謂的契約原則上要符合勞基法的規定嘛對不對這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則啦\n208413\t224015\t但本期有點擔心啦希望教育部先做一個資料的一個收集就是說在現行的規定下保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的比如說這個專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法六條一項六條之一一項六款有講\n225557\t238225\t實習起碼你有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這種事情可是針對產學合作萬一中間出了一些狀況出現一些爭端的時候它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的一個程序的所以我要求針對這個東西針對產學合作的部分\n240726\t241707\t我跟委員一個請求若委員有\n264468\t264508\t主席\n","txt":"謝謝主席 潘部長有請好 請部長委員好部長辛苦了 午安今天討論一下學校退場條例跟即時教育的一些問題現在私校退場基本上就是針對營運不善的學校因為它有幾個指標為了避免它影響教育品質\n所以說由政府介入的角度來要求他來做退場但這本席有接到一些陳情當然就在這個地方來跟部長做個討論就是說現在私校解散清篡之後的這個財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校等於就是充公的一個概念那有一種說法是這樣就是說\n其實當初大家都是為了興學那私人興學其實他們有他們的理想性那有些學校營運不善當然應該退場這本席完全同意但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯然後他會希望說我透過整併或擴大的方式來處理所以說有沒有可能就是說在這個財產歸屬的部分也開放所謂的私立學校的學校法人變成一個捐贈的一個對象要這樣的一個說法我想先聽一聽教育部的意見\n我跟委員報告因為這個當時退場條例在我們上一屆大院這邊委員會是大家充分的討論為了這個就歸屬的問題當時最後決議了就是還是以歸功還是以歸功為主那目前這是在法規所設的因為當時這些如委員剛才所提的也有很多不同的學校也有提出各種不同的想法但是條例定下來是歸功\n我同意你們現在依法行政這沒有問題但我要問政策方向因為現在按照你的報告來講真的走到這個所謂的退場條例然後把走完的學校其實很少對不對而且蠻多其實在中間就卡在那個地方那其實對於教育品質的影響是很大的所以說這一部分看教育部是不是會後來因為他你前面有一個討論的我現在講如果不是進到退場啦也就是說因為退場後一億就多了對退場後就增多嘛\n所以他應該提前去思考這個問題我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考主要以加快退場的速度因為我們現在就很擔心就是說有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段然後他就沒有辦法前進學生也好教師作為受僱者其實勞工權也受到影響這都不是件好事\n所以如果你有一個輔導的機制可以讓他預警或怎麼樣讓他早一點處理完這個事可以處理一下這事情當然很好但如果不行的話是不是可以再做一些思考跟討論這是第一個問題第二個問題是很多私校走的是技職體系那北京一般關心技職體系的一個發展特別是有關於產學合作的這一個部分\n現行這個技術及職業教育法9條2項只有規定就是說讓職涯的認識跟探索列入這個國小跟國中的課綱就是知道有這條路存在那高中只是說安排最多到安排企業參訪跟這個產業參訪要求宣導說明活動\n但我們有發現那到了你如果真的走了技職這一條路的話根據專科以上學校產學合作事實辦法就可以辦理產學合作或者是校外實習那當然就要簽所謂的契約原則上要符合勞基法的規定嘛對不對這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則啦\n但本期有點擔心啦希望教育部先做一個資料的一個收集就是說在現行的規定下保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的比如說這個專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法六條一項六條之一一項六款有講\n實習起碼你有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這種事情可是針對產學合作萬一中間出了一些狀況出現一些爭端的時候它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的一個程序的所以我要求針對這個東西針對產學合作的部分\n我跟委員一個請求若委員有\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.722 --> 00:09.025\n謝謝主席潘部長有請好請部長委員好部長辛苦了午安今天討論一下學校退場條例跟即時教育的一些問題現在私校退場基本上就是針對營運不善的學校因為它有幾個指標為了避免它影響教育品質\n\n00:27.262 --> 00:47.819\n所以說由政府介入的角度來要求他來做退場但這本席有接到一些陳情當然就在這個地方來跟部長做個討論就是說現在私校解散清篡之後的這個財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校等於就是充公的一個概念那有一種說法是這樣就是說\n\n00:49.000 --> 01:12.701\n其實當初大家都是為了興學那私人興學其實他們有他們的理想性那有些學校營運不善當然應該退場這本席完全同意但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯然後他會希望說我透過整併或擴大的方式來處理所以說有沒有可能就是說在這個財產歸屬的部分也開放所謂的私立學校的學校法人變成一個捐贈的一個對象要這樣的一個說法我想先聽一聽教育部的意見\n\n01:13.647 --> 01:41.102\n我跟委員報告因為這個當時退場條例在我們上一屆大院這邊委員會是大家充分的討論為了這個就歸屬的問題當時最後決議了就是還是以歸功還是以歸功為主那目前這是在法規所設的因為當時這些如委員剛才所提的也有很多不同的學校也有提出各種不同的想法但是條例定下來是歸功\n\n01:42.062 --> 02:07.839\n我同意你們現在依法行政這沒有問題但我要問政策方向因為現在按照你的報告來講真的走到這個所謂的退場條例然後把走完的學校其實很少對不對而且蠻多其實在中間就卡在那個地方那其實對於教育品質的影響是很大的所以說這一部分看教育部是不是會後來因為他你前面有一個討論的我現在講如果不是進到退場啦也就是說因為退場後一億就多了對退場後就增多嘛\n\n02:08.880 --> 02:14.222\n所以他應該提前去思考這個問題我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考主要以加快退場的速度因為我們現在就很擔心就是說有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段然後他就沒有辦法前進學生也好教師作為受僱者其實勞工權也受到影響這都不是件好事\n\n02:36.370 --> 02:53.695\n所以如果你有一個輔導的機制可以讓他預警或怎麼樣讓他早一點處理完這個事可以處理一下這事情當然很好但如果不行的話是不是可以再做一些思考跟討論這是第一個問題第二個問題是很多私校走的是技職體系那北京一般關心技職體系的一個發展特別是有關於產學合作的這一個部分\n\n02:54.876 --> 03:09.312\n現行這個技術及職業教育法9條2項只有規定就是說讓職涯的認識跟探索列入這個國小跟國中的課綱就是知道有這條路存在那高中只是說安排最多到安排企業參訪跟這個產業參訪要求宣導說明活動\n\n03:13.416 --> 03:26.391\n但我們有發現那到了你如果真的走了技職這一條路的話根據專科以上學校產學合作事實辦法就可以辦理產學合作或者是校外實習那當然就要簽所謂的契約原則上要符合勞基法的規定嘛對不對這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則啦\n\n03:28.413 --> 03:44.015\n但本期有點擔心啦希望教育部先做一個資料的一個收集就是說在現行的規定下保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的比如說這個專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法六條一項六條之一一項六款有講\n\n03:45.557 --> 03:58.225\n實習起碼你有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這種事情可是針對產學合作萬一中間出了一些狀況出現一些爭端的時候它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的一個程序的所以我要求針對這個東西針對產學合作的部分\n\n04:00.726 --> 04:01.707\n我跟委員一個請求若委員有\n\n04:24.468 --> 04:24.508\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.722,"end":9.025,"text":"謝謝主席 潘部長有請好 請部長委員好部長辛苦了 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