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12:19:23","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":486,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:19:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:11:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時11分）謝謝主席，我們先請部長。"],["主席：好，請王部長。"],["王部長國材：王委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。相見的日子不多了，但是施政還是延續的。首先還是要請教，一開始來談地震之後臺鐵445車次在4月10日一樣有遇到擦撞落石的問題，交通部的說法是因為這一段評估認為不是高風險路段，所以沒有安裝相關的偵測機制。但是部長，不管是臺鐵公司或是公路局，應該都是屬於交通部轄下單位，是吧？"],["王部長國材：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：我為什麼特別提到公路局，貴部公路局提供蘇花改、蘇花安的相關報告裡面提到，台9線160K路段的落石區，在蘇花安評估的時候，基本上公路局認為這一段有落石的風險，但是臺鐵公司覺得這一段非屬落石高風險路段。本席今天特別提出來，是因為同屬交通部，我們一直希望政府的橫向聯繫要做好，當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好，我想就不會有公路局說這邊是落石區，結果臺鐵覺得這邊是非屬落石高風險路段。這二份同樣都是政府的報告，出自同一個部，還沒有跨部會喔，還是同一個部裡的。所以我想拜託一下，這種事情不要再發生了，因為其實自從2021年太魯閣號事件之後，全臺灣大家都很關心軌道運輸的安全性，希望在偵測機制能夠更加落實，更加去執行這個案子。包含今天談到落石區的問題，部長，你可不可以回應一下，未來在評估是不是落石高風險路段的時候，你們還會依據什麼標準？各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行？"],["王部長國材：很謝謝黃委員的指教。的確這一次在臺鐵自己的邊坡，它覺得是沒有問題的，可是上面台9線的部分，公路局認為在蘇花安的範圍內，落石從公路邊坡掉到臺鐵的軌道，過去的確沒有思考到這樣的狀況。由於花蓮這次有八百多次的主震跟餘震，未來這個地方，比如公路的東西會不會掉到鐵路上，這很重要。我已經有跟兩個局長談，我們下一階段是做38處的告警系統，如果要增加，比如這個地方因為地震以後地質和地貌都改變了，我們會支持。委員提的這個課題的確是我們現在面臨到，也要積極處理的課題。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。人民安全還是非常重要，尤其像你們現在提到正在進行中的鐵路邊坡維護與管理規範草案，是2023年12月9日才提出來，也就是去年年底提出的，這個草案其實也是源自於當初太魯閣號出事之後，才會提出這個相關的規範草案，想問一下這個草案目前進度到哪裡？2021年發生之後，到2023年年底才提出，中間隔了兩年多，現在已經2024年4月，快要月底了，這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成，然後送進立法院？"],["王部長國材：這個是部頒，現在交通部在複審，我們會加速來審查。"],["黃委員健豪：多加速？你們每次都說加速，兩年多了，你離職之前會不會提出來？"],["王部長國材：年底，但是我覺得應該要再加速。"],["黃委員健豪：你離職之前有沒有辦法提出來？畢竟這是你任內發生的事情嘛。"],["王部長國材：因為它有專家審查的機制，我加速啦，我來加速。"],["黃委員健豪：好啦，沒關係，不為難你。我是希望儘快，如果再來一次，邊坡如果沒有維護好，如果再發生意外，其實這都是人命的損失，我真的要誠摯地拜託。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來談到我們今天的主題，國道六號東延花蓮的問題，我想先跟部長確認一個消息，這次花蓮的地震，在沿線都有很多損傷，我想問一下隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情？"],["王部長國材：蘇花改的部分沒有，蘇花改的隧道沒有災情。"],["黃委員健豪：中橫這一段隧道內部有沒有災情？"],["王部長國材：明隧道應該都有擋到落石。"],["黃委員健豪：好，為什麼特別提這個，今天為什麼特別提到國道六段東延花蓮要做路廊，就在這次地震之後，我們發現按照現代的工程，相對於直接遇到落石，在隧道裡比較能夠保護用路人的安全。我想問，以能高隧道為例，技術上工程面能不能做到？單純就工程面、技術面來說，先不管環評這些行政流程，我先了解一下，就現代的科技、現代的工程技術，做這樣的隧道可不可行？做不做得到？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，所有的隧道沒有打不通的，但是到底要怎麼來做，必須要有審慎的思考。"],["黃委員健豪：我接受要審慎思考。我現在舉個例子，1996年瑞士要做阿爾卑斯山脈的聖哥達基線隧道，1996年就開始要做，1998年開始執行，2016年通車。大家回想一下，其實阿爾卑斯山也有地震的問題，瑞士在上個世紀末覺得在技術上可以做，也就做了，到前幾年才通車，十年前正式通車。所以我才問以臺灣的地質環境跟工程面來，技術上能不能做到？當然過程中要去評估、要做環評，我都可以理解。人家在20年、30年前在技術上就評估可以做，到了現在，而且又加上花蓮的震災，我剛才提到，確實這次地震當中，發現所有有機會獲救的這群人，他們都是躲在隧道直接獲救，所以我們期望這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式解決，提供花東地區不管是經濟也好，民生問題也好，能夠有一條回家的道路。交通部是不是能夠儘快來執行相關的工程？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我沒有反對啦！我剛才講，我正向來進行這件事。剛剛談到能高隧道，最重要的是要怎麼挖這個隧道，當然不能經過岩爆的地區，所以我們現在正在做地質調查，找路廊也是這個原因。我個人是覺得整個東延案我們加速來進行，但是我是希望循我們原來的程序加速進行。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。我還是要強調，25年前歐洲就做了，打通這個隧道，長達60公里的道路，我想臺灣應該在工程面、技術面和科學上是可行的。謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：謝謝黃健豪委員。","在此先作宣告，本日有委員提出臨時提案1案，稍後在所有登記委員發言、詢答完畢以後，隨即處理臨時提案。","另外，後面工作人員，現在12點20分了，發便當好不好？我們邊質詢邊吃便當。因為不是12點20分就結束，下面繼續開會，還有逐條審查。所以你們方便就發，沒關係。","現在請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra 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483.975, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 483.975, \"end\": 484.115, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 484.115, \"end\": 484.495, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 484.495, \"end\": 484.515, \"score\": 0.009}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,066 --> 00:00:30,816\n好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下,我一開始來談這個地震之後,我想這個台鐵445車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個\n\n2\n00:00:33,783 --> 00:00:54,871\n交通部的說法是因為這一段沒有安裝就是這一段評估認為不是這個高風險路段所以沒有安裝這個相關的偵測機制但是部長這個我想不管是台鐵公司或是說我們的公路局應該都是屬於交通部狹下單位吧是吧好那我們看下一張喔\n\n3\n00:00:55,988 --> 00:01:14,104\n為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160K路段的落實區在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險\n\n4\n00:01:15,144 --> 00:01:31,301\n但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好那我想\n\n5\n00:01:32,102 --> 00:02:01,021\n你們就不會說這邊是這個公共局覺得是落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告都出自同一個部還沒有跨部會還是點部裡面的所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後大家全台灣都很關心說關於軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實\n\n6\n00:02:02,483 --> 00:02:18,685\n更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行\n\n7\n00:02:19,326 --> 00:02:40,114\n是。很謝謝黃委員的指教。就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公路局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡掉到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況\n\n8\n00:03:15,029 --> 00:03:35,074\n好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案\n\n9\n00:03:35,734 --> 00:04:01,372\n那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在互審我們要加速來來來審查互審多加速\n\n10\n00:04:02,495 --> 00:04:19,081\n你們每次都說加速啊。兩年多了。年底喔。再加速一點好了。你離之前要被提出來。但是我覺得應該再加速。我只問你離之前。你離之前也沒有提出來。畢竟這個是你的任內發生的事情嗎?\n\n11\n00:04:21,374 --> 00:04:46,368\n好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制,我教數了,我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦,這個不為難你喔,我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔,我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情,這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震的問題,\n\n12\n00:04:47,789 --> 00:04:59,662\n在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?\n\n13\n00:05:01,289 --> 00:05:28,541\n蘇花公……那個中環這一段有沒有……隧道內部有沒有出現在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的\n\n14\n00:05:29,505 --> 00:05:37,835\n那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到\n\n15\n00:05:38,544 --> 00:06:04,192\n他主要齁,能夠算應該是17日沒有,純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是說就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考\n\n16\n00:06:05,526 --> 00:06:31,146\n我結束後要神聖思考我先要舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓斯山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道的時候1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車當然回想一下其實阿爾賓斯山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了\n\n17\n00:06:31,826 --> 00:06:46,918\n到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家\n\n18\n00:06:48,640 --> 00:07:04,500\n這個幾年二十年前三十年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能有結果獲救的這一群人他們都是躲在這個隧道之間來獲救\n\n19\n00:07:05,581 --> 00:07:20,197\n所以我們期望說這個這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式來解決也提供給花東地區不管經濟也好不管是他的民生問題也好能夠有一條回家的道路是不是能夠盡快的來執行相關的工程市長\n\n20\n00:07:22,538 --> 00:07:40,503\n我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能夠隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那一種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因\n\n21\n00:07:41,423 --> 00:08:04,515\n那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5066\t30816\t好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下,我一開始來談這個地震之後,我想這個台鐵445車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個\n33783\t54871\t交通部的說法是因為這一段沒有安裝就是這一段評估認為不是這個高風險路段所以沒有安裝這個相關的偵測機制但是部長這個我想不管是台鐵公司或是說我們的公路局應該都是屬於交通部狹下單位吧是吧好那我們看下一張喔\n55988\t74104\t為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160K路段的落實區在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險\n75144\t91301\t但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好那我想\n92102\t121021\t你們就不會說這邊是這個公共局覺得是落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告都出自同一個部還沒有跨部會還是點部裡面的所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後大家全台灣都很關心說關於軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實\n122483\t138685\t更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行\n139326\t160114\t是。很謝謝黃委員的指教。就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公路局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡掉到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況\n162875\t179036\t﹏﹏\n179036\t194889\t﹏﹏\n195029\t215074\t好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案\n215734\t241372\t那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在互審我們要加速來來來審查互審多加速\n242495\t259081\t你們每次都說加速啊。兩年多了。年底喔。再加速一點好了。你離之前要被提出來。但是我覺得應該再加速。我只問你離之前。你離之前也沒有提出來。畢竟這個是你的任內發生的事情嗎?\n261374\t286368\t好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制,我教數了,我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦,這個不為難你喔,我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔,我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情,這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震的問題,\n287789\t299662\t在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?\n301289\t328541\t蘇花公……那個中環這一段有沒有……隧道內部有沒有出現在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的\n329505\t337835\t那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到\n338544\t364192\t他主要齁,能夠算應該是17日沒有,純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是說就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考\n365526\t391146\t我結束後要神聖思考我先要舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓斯山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道的時候1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車當然回想一下其實阿爾賓斯山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了\n391826\t406918\t到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家\n408640\t424500\t這個幾年二十年前三十年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能有結果獲救的這一群人他們都是躲在這個隧道之間來獲救\n425581\t440197\t所以我們期望說這個這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式來解決也提供給花東地區不管經濟也好不管是他的民生問題也好能夠有一條回家的道路是不是能夠盡快的來執行相關的工程市長\n442538\t460503\t我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能夠隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那一種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因\n461423\t484515\t那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝\n","txt":"好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下,我一開始來談這個地震之後,我想這個台鐵445車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個\n交通部的說法是因為這一段沒有安裝就是這一段評估認為不是這個高風險路段所以沒有安裝這個相關的偵測機制但是部長這個我想不管是台鐵公司或是說我們的公路局應該都是屬於交通部狹下單位吧是吧好那我們看下一張喔\n為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160K路段的落實區在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險\n但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好那我想\n你們就不會說這邊是這個公共局覺得是落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告都出自同一個部還沒有跨部會還是點部裡面的所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後大家全台灣都很關心說關於軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實\n更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行\n是。很謝謝黃委員的指教。就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公路局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡掉到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況\n﹏﹏\n﹏﹏\n好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案\n那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在互審我們要加速來來來審查互審多加速\n你們每次都說加速啊。兩年多了。年底喔。再加速一點好了。你離之前要被提出來。但是我覺得應該再加速。我只問你離之前。你離之前也沒有提出來。畢竟這個是你的任內發生的事情嗎?\n好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制,我教數了,我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦,這個不為難你喔,我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔,我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情,這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震的問題,\n在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?\n蘇花公……那個中環這一段有沒有……隧道內部有沒有出現在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的\n那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到\n他主要齁,能夠算應該是17日沒有,純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是說就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考\n我結束後要神聖思考我先要舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓斯山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道的時候1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車當然回想一下其實阿爾賓斯山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了\n到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家\n這個幾年二十年前三十年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能有結果獲救的這一群人他們都是躲在這個隧道之間來獲救\n所以我們期望說這個這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式來解決也提供給花東地區不管經濟也好不管是他的民生問題也好能夠有一條回家的道路是不是能夠盡快的來執行相關的工程市長\n我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能夠隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那一種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因\n那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.066 --> 00:30.816\n好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下,我一開始來談這個地震之後,我想這個台鐵445車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個\n\n00:33.783 --> 00:54.871\n交通部的說法是因為這一段沒有安裝就是這一段評估認為不是這個高風險路段所以沒有安裝這個相關的偵測機制但是部長這個我想不管是台鐵公司或是說我們的公路局應該都是屬於交通部狹下單位吧是吧好那我們看下一張喔\n\n00:55.988 --> 01:14.104\n為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160K路段的落實區在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險\n\n01:15.144 --> 01:31.301\n但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好那我想\n\n01:32.102 --> 02:01.021\n你們就不會說這邊是這個公共局覺得是落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告都出自同一個部還沒有跨部會還是點部裡面的所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後大家全台灣都很關心說關於軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實\n\n02:02.483 --> 02:18.685\n更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行\n\n02:19.326 --> 02:40.114\n是。很謝謝黃委員的指教。就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公路局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡掉到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況\n\n03:15.029 --> 03:35.074\n好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案\n\n03:35.734 --> 04:01.372\n那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在互審我們要加速來來來審查互審多加速\n\n04:02.495 --> 04:19.081\n你們每次都說加速啊。兩年多了。年底喔。再加速一點好了。你離之前要被提出來。但是我覺得應該再加速。我只問你離之前。你離之前也沒有提出來。畢竟這個是你的任內發生的事情嗎?\n\n04:21.374 --> 04:46.368\n好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制,我教數了,我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦,這個不為難你喔,我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔,我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情,這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震的問題,\n\n04:47.789 --> 04:59.662\n在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?\n\n05:01.289 --> 05:28.541\n蘇花公……那個中環這一段有沒有……隧道內部有沒有出現在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的\n\n05:29.505 --> 05:37.835\n那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到\n\n05:38.544 --> 06:04.192\n他主要齁,能夠算應該是17日沒有,純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是說就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考\n\n06:05.526 --> 06:31.146\n我結束後要神聖思考我先要舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓斯山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道的時候1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車當然回想一下其實阿爾賓斯山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了\n\n06:31.826 --> 06:46.918\n到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家\n\n06:48.640 --> 07:04.500\n這個幾年二十年前三十年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能有結果獲救的這一群人他們都是躲在這個隧道之間來獲救\n\n07:05.581 --> 07:20.197\n所以我們期望說這個這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式來解決也提供給花東地區不管經濟也好不管是他的民生問題也好能夠有一條回家的道路是不是能夠盡快的來執行相關的工程市長\n\n07:22.538 --> 07:40.503\n我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能夠隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那一種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因\n\n07:41.423 --> 08:04.515\n那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.066,"end":30.816,"text":"好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下,我一開始來談這個地震之後,我想這個台鐵445車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個"},{"start":33.783,"end":54.871,"text":"交通部的說法是因為這一段沒有安裝就是這一段評估認為不是這個高風險路段所以沒有安裝這個相關的偵測機制但是部長這個我想不管是台鐵公司或是說我們的公路局應該都是屬於交通部狹下單位吧是吧好那我們看下一張喔"},{"start":55.988,"end":74.104,"text":"為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160K路段的落實區在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險"},{"start":75.144,"end":91.301,"text":"但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好那我想"},{"start":92.102,"end":121.021,"text":"你們就不會說這邊是這個公共局覺得是落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告都出自同一個部還沒有跨部會還是點部裡面的所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後大家全台灣都很關心說關於軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實"},{"start":122.483,"end":138.685,"text":"更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行"},{"start":139.326,"end":160.114,"text":"是。很謝謝黃委員的指教。就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公路局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡掉到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":162.875,"end":179.036,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":179.036,"end":194.889,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":195.029,"end":215.074,"text":"好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案"},{"start":215.734,"end":241.372,"text":"那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在互審我們要加速來來來審查互審多加速"},{"start":242.495,"end":259.081,"text":" 你們每次都說加速啊。兩年多了。年底喔。再加速一點好了。你離之前要被提出來。但是我覺得應該再加速。我只問你離之前。你離之前也沒有提出來。畢竟這個是你的任內發生的事情嗎?"},{"start":261.374,"end":286.368,"text":"好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制,我教數了,我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦,這個不為難你喔,我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔,我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情,這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震的問題,"},{"start":287.789,"end":299.662,"text":"在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?"},{"start":301.289,"end":328.541,"text":"蘇花公……那個中環這一段有沒有……隧道內部有沒有出現在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的"},{"start":329.505,"end":337.835,"text":"那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到"},{"start":338.544,"end":364.192,"text":"他主要齁,能夠算應該是17日沒有,純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是說就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考"},{"start":365.526,"end":391.146,"text":"我結束後要神聖思考我先要舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓斯山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道的時候1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車當然回想一下其實阿爾賓斯山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了"},{"start":391.826,"end":406.918,"text":"到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家"},{"start":408.64,"end":424.5,"text":"這個幾年二十年前三十年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能有結果獲救的這一群人他們都是躲在這個隧道之間來獲救"},{"start":425.581,"end":440.197,"text":"所以我們期望說這個這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式來解決也提供給花東地區不管經濟也好不管是他的民生問題也好能夠有一條回家的道路是不是能夠盡快的來執行相關的工程市長"},{"start":442.538,"end":460.503,"text":"我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能夠隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那一種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因"},{"start":461.423,"end":484.515,"text":"那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝"}]}}}}