{"id":151411,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b445d661965a34f06f45f81d0e85270258c9c5dab72e655c1c94f711b04a562537095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:43:18 - 10:52:53","影片長度":"00:09:35","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n四、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-14"},"date":"2024-04-18","duration":575,"end_time":"2024-04-18T10:52:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-18T10:43:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時43分）麻煩有請立法院秘書長。"],["主席：有請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好。延續上一次在針對國會改法案的時候對您所提出來的詢問，我知道您作為立法院的秘書長，基本上是一個行政幕僚總管的性質，所以在很多法案上您不便表示意見，這個我都理解。因此，接下來在針對有關於國會改革相關法案關鍵、重要的問題，您在您方便的程度範圍內表達意見就好，不用覺得太勉強。","過去這段時間，不斷的有立委說，依據大法官釋字729，相關的議案只要有涉及刑事偵查，立法院就不可以組成調閱小組，秘書長，你贊成這樣的法律見解嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：是可以成立啊。"],["黃委員國昌：是可以成立嘛？"],["周秘書長萬來：有它的規範，不違背729號的解釋。"],["黃委員國昌：說得非常的好，可不可以成立調閱小組，跟調閱了以後可以調閱什麼東西，這是兩個完全不同層次的事情，秘書長，你贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：我贊同。"],["黃委員國昌：贊成嘛？729它的關鍵是什麼？729它的關鍵是我們的立法院司法及法制委員會成立了一個調閱小組以後，跑去跟最高檢察署要求要調閱什麼？要求調閱最高檢察署特他61的案件，秘書長，您知不知道為什麼會有大法官釋字729號解釋文？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時有一些事情發生。"],["柯委員建銘：我提的啊。"],["黃委員國昌：當初有一些事情發生嘛，你講得非常非常的委婉，當初就是司法及法制委員會成立了調閱小組，跟最高檢察署要調閱特他61的卷嘛，所以才被人家提釋憲，大法官才宣告違憲嘛，它宣告違憲的是什麼？你成立這個調閱小組了以後，怎麼會去跟人家調閱偵查中的卷證呢？是這件事情被宣告違憲，這個才是核心。而當初提案要成立這一個監聽調閱小組的，正是民主進步黨的黨團，要去調閱特他61的，也正是民主進步黨的黨團要去調閱這一個，所以被大法官釋字729宣告違憲嘛。民進黨團一天到晚在跟大家講「毀憲亂政、毀憲亂政」，結果在我們的大法官釋憲史上，729號，在729號裡面被清楚地記下一筆的，正是民主進步黨黨團當初要調的東西。","我第二個問題，我覺得非常的納悶，我就回顧當初監聽調閱專案小組那個時候的議事錄，我發現那個時候要調特他61，有一個非常重要的關鍵點，那個重要的關鍵點是說，我們國會的電話是不是有被監聽吧？那為什麼會產生國會的電話是不是有被監聽的問題？因為那時候涉及到了我們那個時候立法院的院長王金平跟在野黨最大的黨鞭柯建銘是不是有關說司法的問題嘛，叫曾勇夫交代高等檢察署的檢察官，針對柯建銘所涉及的刑事案件不可以提起上訴，就是因為這件事情，整個風暴才全部都起來。但我看完了以後，我發現很奇怪，那個時候2013年，監聽調閱專案小組，柯建銘某個程度上可以說是涉案當事人啊，他為什麼可以參加這個監聽調閱專案小組？秘書長，依照您的高度，您對於立法院裡面利益衝突迴避的理解，你認為這樣妥當嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為那是由委員會來組成啦，我不太瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：你不太瞭解嘛？所以按照秘書長您今天表示的意見是說，以後我們成立不管是調閱委員會，還是調閱小組，涉案的當事人自己參與這個調閱小組，都不會有什麼問題。秘書長，您的立場是這樣嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：應該按照相關規定去處理。"],["黃委員國昌：你認為應該的相關規定是什麼？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果有涉及到有相關性的利害的，當然有時候會需要迴避。"],["黃委員國昌：需要迴避嘛，OK，秘書長，您肯講到這邊，我老實講，已經是勇氣可嘉、勇氣可嘉。好，沒有關係。","第二個爭點，過去又有民主進步黨的立委說逕付二讀一定要交付黨團協商，那時候他們提出這個主張的時候，我就百思不得其解，到底規範在哪裡？結果今天民進黨自己提出來的法案，終於承認了這件事情根本沒規範，這件事情根本沒規範，所以他們希望按照他們覺得他們想要的方式提了這個修正草案嘛，秘書長，我的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果容許我講兩分鐘……"],["黃委員國昌：可以，我給你兩分鐘。"],["周秘書長萬來：因為當時在第4屆第6會期的時候，在處理的時候，是有黨團有給法制局，因為黨團協商原則是由法制局主政來寫條文啦，那時候我恰好奉派到台聯那邊去報告一些國會的運作，回來以後，在會辦該法案時，我只增列了第十條之一。當時的法制局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會逕付二讀，在實際運作上，反而是爭議的話，才會逕付二讀比較多啦。後來這變成是一個漏洞，形成漏洞以後，就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例，所以這也是不成文的一個議事例啦，並不是在法明文規定，所以才會有第八條的第二項跟第三項，如果有面臨到這個的時候，按照案例就是會交黨團協商，整個的過程是這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：好啦，那問題就來了嘛，第一個，我們剛剛確認了，目前立法院職權行使法也好，議事規則也好，從來沒有一條說逕付二讀要交付黨團協商，我的理解正不正確？"],["周秘書長萬來：也是對，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛，實際的例子在第10屆第1會期第13次會議的時候，民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔，逕付二讀的提案喔，他沒有說要交付黨團協商耶，他逕付二讀的提案是什麼？並照案通過！奇怪了，民主進步黨怎麼一方面主張逕付二讀一定要交付黨團協商，結果自己推的案子，符合他們需要、方便的時候，這個逕付二讀不用交黨團協商，就直接照案通過了。因為我拜讀他們的提案表，這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建銘簽名，上面寫說擬請院會逕付二讀並什麼？照案通過。那就奇怪啦，民進黨不是說逕付二讀一定要交付黨團協商嗎？怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢？這證明了什麼事？這證明了什麼事？這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的，從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩，從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣，別人逕付二讀，不希望交付黨團協商，他就說不行，一定要交付黨團協商，而自己逕付二讀，然後希望照案通過，他就什麼？他就照案通過。","我算是很尊重主席的人啦，主席站起來了，我一定會尊重，但大家所有在看的人可以去看看，剛剛程序發言的時候，說兩分鐘也好、三分鐘也好，站在對面講了多久？站在對面講了多久？大家可以去計時啊。基本上面的規矩跟規範，這個國會的運作，我再強調一次啊，不是某一個人愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃委員的發言。為了議事運作順暢，有時候本席在主持會議的時候，會儘量給予多寬容。那現在議事進行非常順暢，就希望各位發言的委員能夠遵守我們發言的規則。","接下來有請我們柯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-14","speakers":["鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","謝衣鳯","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":479,"meetingDate":["2024-04-18"],"gazette_id":"1133101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133101_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬\n具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案；三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職\n權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案；四、委員鄭天財 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\"start\": 393.438, \"end\": 393.618, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 393.618, \"end\": 393.778, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"加\", \"start\": 393.778, \"end\": 393.959, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 393.959, \"end\": 394.319, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 394.319, \"end\": 394.499, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"十\", \"start\": 394.499, \"end\": 394.879, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 394.879, \"end\": 395.059, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 395.059, \"end\": 395.08, \"score\": 1.0}]}, {\"start\": 395.76, \"end\": 423.34, \"text\": \"那當時的法治局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會進入二度那在實際運作上反而是爭議的話才會進入二度比較多啦那後來這事變成是一個漏洞那漏洞就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例所以這也是不成文的一個立規一個議事例啦並不是在法院有規定所以才會有第八條的第二項\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 395.76, \"end\": 396.681, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 396.681, \"end\": 396.961, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 418.096, \"end\": 418.777, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 418.777, \"end\": 418.957, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 418.957, \"end\": 419.117, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"例\", \"start\": 419.117, \"end\": 419.638, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"啦\", \"start\": 419.638, \"end\": 419.758, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 419.758, \"end\": 419.918, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 419.918, \"end\": 420.038, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 420.038, \"end\": 420.278, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 420.278, \"end\": 420.458, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 420.458, \"end\": 420.798, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 420.798, \"end\": 421.039, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 421.039, \"end\": 421.559, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 421.559, \"end\": 421.639, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 421.639, \"end\": 421.739, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 421.739, \"end\": 421.979, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 421.979, \"end\": 422.159, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 422.159, \"end\": 422.3, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"八\", \"start\": 422.3, \"end\": 422.68, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 422.68, \"end\": 423.2, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 423.2, \"end\": 423.32, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 423.32, \"end\": 423.34, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"項\"}]}, {\"start\": 424.341, \"end\": 444.462, \"text\": \"跟第三項如果有面臨到這個的時候按照案例就是會交黨團協商是這樣的一個整個一個過程好來那就問題就來了嘛第一個我們剛剛確認了目前立法院職權行使法也好議事規則也好從來沒有一條說進夫二讀要交付黨團協商我的理解正不正確\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 424.341, \"end\": 424.501, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 440.799, \"end\": 440.919, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 440.919, \"end\": 440.979, \"score\": 0.611}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 440.979, \"end\": 442.04, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"夫\", \"start\": 442.04, \"end\": 442.18, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 442.18, \"end\": 442.46, \"score\": 0.735}, {\"word\": \"讀\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 442.46, \"end\": 442.62, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 442.62, \"end\": 442.801, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"付\", \"start\": 442.801, \"end\": 443.441, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 443.441, \"end\": 443.722, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 443.722, \"end\": 443.822, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 443.822, \"end\": 443.922, \"score\": 0.575}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 443.922, \"end\": 444.062, \"score\": 0.767}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 444.062, \"end\": 444.242, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 444.242, \"end\": 444.342, \"score\": 0.701}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 444.342, \"end\": 444.442, \"score\": 0.73}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 444.442, \"end\": 444.462, \"score\": 0.212}, {\"word\": \"確\"}]}, {\"start\": 446.752, \"end\": 465.895, \"text\": \"好,那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛實際的例子在第十屆第一會期第十三次會議的時候民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔進復二讀的提案喔欸他沒有說要交付黨團協商欸他進復二讀的提案是什麼必!造案通過\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 446.752, \"end\": 447.413, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 447.413, \"end\": 447.573, \"score\": 0.866}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 447.573, \"end\": 447.713, \"score\": 0.794}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 447.713, \"end\": 447.893, \"score\": 0.852}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 447.893, \"end\": 448.194, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 459.988, \"end\": 461.029, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 461.029, \"end\": 461.23, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 461.23, \"end\": 461.39, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"付\", \"start\": 461.39, \"end\": 462.031, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 462.031, \"end\": 462.691, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"欸\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 462.691, \"end\": 463.112, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"復\"}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 463.112, \"end\": 463.613, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"讀\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 463.613, \"end\": 463.773, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 463.773, \"end\": 463.893, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 463.893, \"end\": 464.133, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 464.133, \"end\": 464.273, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 464.273, \"end\": 464.714, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"必\", \"start\": 464.714, \"end\": 465.435, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"!\"}, {\"word\": \"造\", \"start\": 465.435, \"end\": 465.655, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 465.655, \"end\": 465.875, \"score\": 0.843}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 465.875, \"end\": 465.895, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"過\"}]}, {\"start\": 467.642, \"end\": 492.177, \"text\": \"那奇怪囉?民主進步黨怎麼一方面要主張進步二讀一定要交付黨團協商喔?結果自己推的案子符合他們需要方便的時候這個進步二讀不用交黨團協商啊就直接照案通過啊因為我拜讀他們的提案表啊這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建民簽名的啊上面寫說您請願會進步二讀並什麼?照案通過\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 467.642, \"end\": 467.802, \"score\": 0.778}, {\"word\": \"奇\", \"start\": 467.802, \"end\": 468.042, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"怪\", \"start\": 468.042, \"end\": 468.983, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"囉\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 468.983, \"end\": 469.283, \"score\": 0.781}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 469.283, \"end\": 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\"用\", \"start\": 479.849, \"end\": 480.009, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"交\", \"start\": 480.009, \"end\": 480.79, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"團\"}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"商\", \"start\": 480.79, \"end\": 480.95, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 480.95, \"end\": 481.33, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 481.33, \"end\": 481.51, \"score\": 0.846}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 481.51, \"end\": 481.63, \"score\": 0.795}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 481.63, \"end\": 481.811, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 481.811, \"end\": 481.951, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 481.951, \"end\": 482.131, \"score\": 0.734}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 482.131, \"end\": 482.491, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 482.491, \"end\": 482.971, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 482.971, \"end\": 483.051, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", 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\"會\"}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"步\", \"start\": 491.196, \"end\": 491.416, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 491.416, \"end\": 491.596, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"讀\"}, {\"word\": \"並\"}, {\"word\": \"什\", \"start\": 491.596, \"end\": 491.917, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 491.917, \"end\": 492.077, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 492.077, \"end\": 492.157, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 492.157, \"end\": 492.177, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"過\"}]}, {\"start\": 496.038, \"end\": 521.039, \"text\": \"那就奇怪啦!民進黨不是說進夫二讀一定要交付黨團協商嗎?怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢?這證明了什麼事?這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 496.038, \"end\": 496.158, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 496.158, \"end\": 496.318, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"奇\", \"start\": 496.318, \"end\": 496.518, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"怪\", 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567.461, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"愛\"}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 567.461, \"end\": 567.481, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"幹\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 567.481, \"end\": 567.601, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"怎\", \"start\": 567.601, \"end\": 567.621, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"幹\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:17,238 --> 00:00:19,499\n麻煩有請立法院秘書長有請莊秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:30,460 --> 00:00:53,374\n秘書長好,延續上一次在針對國會改革法案的時候對您所提出來的詢問我知道您作為立法院的秘書長基本上是一個行政幕僚總管的性質所以在很多法案上您不便表示意見,這個我都理解因此接下來在針對有關於國會改革相關法案關鍵\n\n3\n00:00:54,895 --> 00:01:19,249\n重要的問題您在您方便的程度範圍內表達意見就好不用覺得太勉強過去這段時間不斷的有立委說依據大法官釋字729相關的議案只要有涉及刑事偵查立法院就不可以組成第二小組秘書長你贊成這樣的法律見解嗎\n\n4\n00:01:20,711 --> 00:01:37,551\n是可以成立啦是可以成立啦由於他的規範齁是不違背7號、9號的歧視說得非常的好可不可以成立調閱小組啊跟調閱了以後可以調閱什麼東西啊這是兩個完全不同層次的事情秘書長你贊不贊成\n\n5\n00:01:39,774 --> 00:01:45,600\n贊同贊成嘛7月9他的關鍵是什麼7月9他的關鍵是啊我們的立法院司法法制委員會成立了一個調閱小組以後跑去跟最高檢察署啊要求要調閱什麼要求調閱最高檢察署特他61啊的案件啊祕書長\n\n6\n00:02:05,233 --> 00:02:32,599\n您知不知道為什麼會有大法官釋字729號解釋文當時有一些事情發生當初有一些事情發生嘛你講得非常非常的為外當初就是司法法制委員會成立了調閱小組嘛跟最高檢察署要調閱扣他60億的券嘛所以才被人家提釋憲嘛大法官才宣告違憲嘛他宣告違憲的是什麼\n\n7\n00:02:33,439 --> 00:02:40,587\n你成立這個調閱小組了以後怎麼會去跟人家調閱偵查中的卷證呢是這一件事情被宣告違憲這個才是核心而當初這個監聽調閱小組提案要成立的正是民主進步黨的黨團\n\n8\n00:02:53,780 --> 00:03:06,267\n要去調閱特他61的也正是民主進步黨的黨團要去調閱這一個所以被大法官4至7月9宣告違憲嘛民進黨團一天到晚在跟大家講毀憲亂政、毀憲亂政結果在我們的大法官釋憲史上729號\n\n9\n00:03:15,540 --> 00:03:27,507\n在729號裡面被清楚地記下一筆的正式民主進步黨黨團當初要掉落東西第二個問題我就非常的納悶我就回顧當初監聽調閱專案小組那個時候的議事錄我發現\n\n10\n00:03:34,690 --> 00:04:01,490\n那個時候要退他六十一有個非常重要的關鍵點那個重要的關鍵點是說因為我們的國會的電話是不是有被監聽那為什麼會產生國會的電話是不是有被監聽的問題因為那時候涉及到了我們那個時候立法院的院長王金平跟在野黨最大的黨鞭柯建民是不是有去關說司法的問題\n\n11\n00:04:03,157 --> 00:04:28,617\n叫曾永夫交代高等檢察署的檢察官針對柯建民所涉及的刑事案件不可以提起上訴就是因為這件事情整個風暴才全部都起來但我看完了以後我發現很奇怪那個說2013年監聽調閱專案小組柯建民某個程度上可以說是涉案當事人\n\n12\n00:04:29,861 --> 00:04:41,557\n他為什麼可以參加這個監聽調閱專案小組啊?律師長依照您的高度您對於立法院裡面利益衝突迴避的理解你認為這樣妥當嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:43,251 --> 00:05:11,278\n因為那是由委員會來組成的我不太了解你也不太了解嘛所以按照秘書長您今天表示的意見是說以後我們成立不管是調閱委員會還是調閱小組涉案的當事人自己參與這個調閱小組都不會有什麼問題秘書長您的立場是這樣嗎按照相當規定去處理那你認為應該的相關規定是什麼\n\n14\n00:05:13,345 --> 00:05:34,061\n涉及到有相關性的利害的當然有需要迴避需要迴避嘛OK齁秘書長您可能講到這邊啊我老實講已經是勇氣可嘉勇氣可嘉齁沒有關係第二個爭點過去又有民主進步黨的立委啊說政府惡毒一定\n\n15\n00:05:34,707 --> 00:05:50,167\n要交付黨團協商。」那個時候他們提出這個主張的時候我就百思不得其解到底規範在哪裡結果今天民進黨自己提出來的法案終於承認了這件事情根本沒規範\n\n16\n00:05:51,830 --> 00:06:07,476\n這件事情根本沒規範所以他們希望按照他們覺得他們想要的方式提了這個修正草案嘛秘書長我的理解有沒有錯誤如果容許我講兩分鐘可以是是是我給你兩分鐘\n\n17\n00:06:09,397 --> 00:06:35,080\n因為當時在第四屆第六會期的時候在處理的時候因為是由黨團有給法治局做就是黨團協商是原則是由法治局來主政來寫條文啦那時候我才恰好是後面到台聯那邊去報告一些國會的運作回來以後當然在會的時候我是有加了第十條之一\n\n18\n00:06:35,760 --> 00:07:03,340\n那當時的法治局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會進入二度那在實際運作上反而是爭議的話才會進入二度比較多啦那後來這事變成是一個漏洞那漏洞就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例所以這也是不成文的一個立規一個議事例啦並不是在法院有規定所以才會有第八條的第二項\n\n19\n00:07:04,341 --> 00:07:24,462\n跟第三項如果有面臨到這個的時候按照案例就是會交黨團協商是這樣的一個整個一個過程好來那就問題就來了嘛第一個我們剛剛確認了目前立法院職權行使法也好議事規則也好從來沒有一條說進夫二讀要交付黨團協商我的理解正不正確\n\n20\n00:07:26,752 --> 00:07:45,895\n好,那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛實際的例子在第十屆第一會期第十三次會議的時候民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔進復二讀的提案喔欸他沒有說要交付黨團協商欸他進復二讀的提案是什麼必!造案通過\n\n21\n00:07:47,642 --> 00:08:12,177\n那奇怪囉?民主進步黨怎麼一方面要主張進步二讀一定要交付黨團協商喔?結果自己推的案子符合他們需要方便的時候這個進步二讀不用交黨團協商啊就直接照案通過啊因為我拜讀他們的提案表啊這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建民簽名的啊上面寫說您請願會進步二讀並什麼?照案通過\n\n22\n00:08:16,038 --> 00:08:41,039\n那就奇怪啦!民進黨不是說進夫二讀一定要交付黨團協商嗎?怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢?這證明了什麼事?這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣\n\n23\n00:08:42,961 --> 00:08:55,745\n別人近乎二讀不希望交付黨團協商他就說不行一定要交付黨團協商而自己近乎二讀然後失望造案通過他就什麼他就造案通過我算啦是很尊重主席的人啦主席站起來了我一定會尊重但大家啊\n\n24\n00:09:08,829 --> 00:09:27,621\n所有在看的人可以去看看剛剛程序發言的時候說兩分鐘也好三分鐘也好站在對面講了多久站在對面講了多久大家可以去計時基本上面的規矩跟規範這個國會的運作我再強調一次不是某一個人愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n17238\t19499\t麻煩有請立法院秘書長有請莊秘書長\n30460\t53374\t秘書長好,延續上一次在針對國會改革法案的時候對您所提出來的詢問我知道您作為立法院的秘書長基本上是一個行政幕僚總管的性質所以在很多法案上您不便表示意見,這個我都理解因此接下來在針對有關於國會改革相關法案關鍵\n54895\t79249\t重要的問題您在您方便的程度範圍內表達意見就好不用覺得太勉強過去這段時間不斷的有立委說依據大法官釋字729相關的議案只要有涉及刑事偵查立法院就不可以組成第二小組秘書長你贊成這樣的法律見解嗎\n80711\t97551\t是可以成立啦是可以成立啦由於他的規範齁是不違背7號、9號的歧視說得非常的好可不可以成立調閱小組啊跟調閱了以後可以調閱什麼東西啊這是兩個完全不同層次的事情秘書長你贊不贊成\n99774\t105600\t贊同贊成嘛7月9他的關鍵是什麼7月9他的關鍵是啊我們的立法院司法法制委員會成立了一個調閱小組以後跑去跟最高檢察署啊要求要調閱什麼要求調閱最高檢察署特他61啊的案件啊祕書長\n125233\t152599\t您知不知道為什麼會有大法官釋字729號解釋文當時有一些事情發生當初有一些事情發生嘛你講得非常非常的為外當初就是司法法制委員會成立了調閱小組嘛跟最高檢察署要調閱扣他60億的券嘛所以才被人家提釋憲嘛大法官才宣告違憲嘛他宣告違憲的是什麼\n153439\t160587\t你成立這個調閱小組了以後怎麼會去跟人家調閱偵查中的卷證呢是這一件事情被宣告違憲這個才是核心而當初這個監聽調閱小組提案要成立的正是民主進步黨的黨團\n173780\t186267\t要去調閱特他61的也正是民主進步黨的黨團要去調閱這一個所以被大法官4至7月9宣告違憲嘛民進黨團一天到晚在跟大家講毀憲亂政、毀憲亂政結果在我們的大法官釋憲史上729號\n195540\t207507\t在729號裡面被清楚地記下一筆的正式民主進步黨黨團當初要掉落東西第二個問題我就非常的納悶我就回顧當初監聽調閱專案小組那個時候的議事錄我發現\n214690\t241490\t那個時候要退他六十一有個非常重要的關鍵點那個重要的關鍵點是說因為我們的國會的電話是不是有被監聽那為什麼會產生國會的電話是不是有被監聽的問題因為那時候涉及到了我們那個時候立法院的院長王金平跟在野黨最大的黨鞭柯建民是不是有去關說司法的問題\n243157\t268617\t叫曾永夫交代高等檢察署的檢察官針對柯建民所涉及的刑事案件不可以提起上訴就是因為這件事情整個風暴才全部都起來但我看完了以後我發現很奇怪那個說2013年監聽調閱專案小組柯建民某個程度上可以說是涉案當事人\n269861\t281557\t他為什麼可以參加這個監聽調閱專案小組啊?律師長依照您的高度您對於立法院裡面利益衝突迴避的理解你認為這樣妥當嗎?\n283251\t311278\t因為那是由委員會來組成的我不太了解你也不太了解嘛所以按照秘書長您今天表示的意見是說以後我們成立不管是調閱委員會還是調閱小組涉案的當事人自己參與這個調閱小組都不會有什麼問題秘書長您的立場是這樣嗎按照相當規定去處理那你認為應該的相關規定是什麼\n313345\t334061\t涉及到有相關性的利害的當然有需要迴避需要迴避嘛OK齁秘書長您可能講到這邊啊我老實講已經是勇氣可嘉勇氣可嘉齁沒有關係第二個爭點過去又有民主進步黨的立委啊說政府惡毒一定\n334707\t350167\t要交付黨團協商。」那個時候他們提出這個主張的時候我就百思不得其解到底規範在哪裡結果今天民進黨自己提出來的法案終於承認了這件事情根本沒規範\n351830\t367476\t這件事情根本沒規範所以他們希望按照他們覺得他們想要的方式提了這個修正草案嘛秘書長我的理解有沒有錯誤如果容許我講兩分鐘可以是是是我給你兩分鐘\n369397\t395080\t因為當時在第四屆第六會期的時候在處理的時候因為是由黨團有給法治局做就是黨團協商是原則是由法治局來主政來寫條文啦那時候我才恰好是後面到台聯那邊去報告一些國會的運作回來以後當然在會的時候我是有加了第十條之一\n395760\t423340\t那當時的法治局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會進入二度那在實際運作上反而是爭議的話才會進入二度比較多啦那後來這事變成是一個漏洞那漏洞就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例所以這也是不成文的一個立規一個議事例啦並不是在法院有規定所以才會有第八條的第二項\n424341\t444462\t跟第三項如果有面臨到這個的時候按照案例就是會交黨團協商是這樣的一個整個一個過程好來那就問題就來了嘛第一個我們剛剛確認了目前立法院職權行使法也好議事規則也好從來沒有一條說進夫二讀要交付黨團協商我的理解正不正確\n446752\t465895\t好,那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛實際的例子在第十屆第一會期第十三次會議的時候民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔進復二讀的提案喔欸他沒有說要交付黨團協商欸他進復二讀的提案是什麼必!造案通過\n467642\t492177\t那奇怪囉?民主進步黨怎麼一方面要主張進步二讀一定要交付黨團協商喔?結果自己推的案子符合他們需要方便的時候這個進步二讀不用交黨團協商啊就直接照案通過啊因為我拜讀他們的提案表啊這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建民簽名的啊上面寫說您請願會進步二讀並什麼?照案通過\n496038\t521039\t那就奇怪啦!民進黨不是說進夫二讀一定要交付黨團協商嗎?怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢?這證明了什麼事?這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣\n522961\t535745\t別人近乎二讀不希望交付黨團協商他就說不行一定要交付黨團協商而自己近乎二讀然後失望造案通過他就什麼他就造案通過我算啦是很尊重主席的人啦主席站起來了我一定會尊重但大家啊\n548829\t567621\t所有在看的人可以去看看剛剛程序發言的時候說兩分鐘也好三分鐘也好站在對面講了多久站在對面講了多久大家可以去計時基本上面的規矩跟規範這個國會的運作我再強調一次不是某一個人愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹謝謝\n","txt":"麻煩有請立法院秘書長有請莊秘書長\n秘書長好,延續上一次在針對國會改革法案的時候對您所提出來的詢問我知道您作為立法院的秘書長基本上是一個行政幕僚總管的性質所以在很多法案上您不便表示意見,這個我都理解因此接下來在針對有關於國會改革相關法案關鍵\n重要的問題您在您方便的程度範圍內表達意見就好不用覺得太勉強過去這段時間不斷的有立委說依據大法官釋字729相關的議案只要有涉及刑事偵查立法院就不可以組成第二小組秘書長你贊成這樣的法律見解嗎\n是可以成立啦是可以成立啦由於他的規範齁是不違背7號、9號的歧視說得非常的好可不可以成立調閱小組啊跟調閱了以後可以調閱什麼東西啊這是兩個完全不同層次的事情秘書長你贊不贊成\n贊同贊成嘛7月9他的關鍵是什麼7月9他的關鍵是啊我們的立法院司法法制委員會成立了一個調閱小組以後跑去跟最高檢察署啊要求要調閱什麼要求調閱最高檢察署特他61啊的案件啊祕書長\n您知不知道為什麼會有大法官釋字729號解釋文當時有一些事情發生當初有一些事情發生嘛你講得非常非常的為外當初就是司法法制委員會成立了調閱小組嘛跟最高檢察署要調閱扣他60億的券嘛所以才被人家提釋憲嘛大法官才宣告違憲嘛他宣告違憲的是什麼\n你成立這個調閱小組了以後怎麼會去跟人家調閱偵查中的卷證呢是這一件事情被宣告違憲這個才是核心而當初這個監聽調閱小組提案要成立的正是民主進步黨的黨團\n要去調閱特他61的也正是民主進步黨的黨團要去調閱這一個所以被大法官4至7月9宣告違憲嘛民進黨團一天到晚在跟大家講毀憲亂政、毀憲亂政結果在我們的大法官釋憲史上729號\n在729號裡面被清楚地記下一筆的正式民主進步黨黨團當初要掉落東西第二個問題我就非常的納悶我就回顧當初監聽調閱專案小組那個時候的議事錄我發現\n那個時候要退他六十一有個非常重要的關鍵點那個重要的關鍵點是說因為我們的國會的電話是不是有被監聽那為什麼會產生國會的電話是不是有被監聽的問題因為那時候涉及到了我們那個時候立法院的院長王金平跟在野黨最大的黨鞭柯建民是不是有去關說司法的問題\n叫曾永夫交代高等檢察署的檢察官針對柯建民所涉及的刑事案件不可以提起上訴就是因為這件事情整個風暴才全部都起來但我看完了以後我發現很奇怪那個說2013年監聽調閱專案小組柯建民某個程度上可以說是涉案當事人\n他為什麼可以參加這個監聽調閱專案小組啊?律師長依照您的高度您對於立法院裡面利益衝突迴避的理解你認為這樣妥當嗎?\n因為那是由委員會來組成的我不太了解你也不太了解嘛所以按照秘書長您今天表示的意見是說以後我們成立不管是調閱委員會還是調閱小組涉案的當事人自己參與這個調閱小組都不會有什麼問題秘書長您的立場是這樣嗎按照相當規定去處理那你認為應該的相關規定是什麼\n涉及到有相關性的利害的當然有需要迴避需要迴避嘛OK齁秘書長您可能講到這邊啊我老實講已經是勇氣可嘉勇氣可嘉齁沒有關係第二個爭點過去又有民主進步黨的立委啊說政府惡毒一定\n要交付黨團協商。」那個時候他們提出這個主張的時候我就百思不得其解到底規範在哪裡結果今天民進黨自己提出來的法案終於承認了這件事情根本沒規範\n這件事情根本沒規範所以他們希望按照他們覺得他們想要的方式提了這個修正草案嘛秘書長我的理解有沒有錯誤如果容許我講兩分鐘可以是是是我給你兩分鐘\n因為當時在第四屆第六會期的時候在處理的時候因為是由黨團有給法治局做就是黨團協商是原則是由法治局來主政來寫條文啦那時候我才恰好是後面到台聯那邊去報告一些國會的運作回來以後當然在會的時候我是有加了第十條之一\n那當時的法治局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會進入二度那在實際運作上反而是爭議的話才會進入二度比較多啦那後來這事變成是一個漏洞那漏洞就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例所以這也是不成文的一個立規一個議事例啦並不是在法院有規定所以才會有第八條的第二項\n跟第三項如果有面臨到這個的時候按照案例就是會交黨團協商是這樣的一個整個一個過程好來那就問題就來了嘛第一個我們剛剛確認了目前立法院職權行使法也好議事規則也好從來沒有一條說進夫二讀要交付黨團協商我的理解正不正確\n好,那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛實際的例子在第十屆第一會期第十三次會議的時候民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔進復二讀的提案喔欸他沒有說要交付黨團協商欸他進復二讀的提案是什麼必!造案通過\n那奇怪囉?民主進步黨怎麼一方面要主張進步二讀一定要交付黨團協商喔?結果自己推的案子符合他們需要方便的時候這個進步二讀不用交黨團協商啊就直接照案通過啊因為我拜讀他們的提案表啊這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建民簽名的啊上面寫說您請願會進步二讀並什麼?照案通過\n那就奇怪啦!民進黨不是說進夫二讀一定要交付黨團協商嗎?怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢?這證明了什麼事?這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣\n別人近乎二讀不希望交付黨團協商他就說不行一定要交付黨團協商而自己近乎二讀然後失望造案通過他就什麼他就造案通過我算啦是很尊重主席的人啦主席站起來了我一定會尊重但大家啊\n所有在看的人可以去看看剛剛程序發言的時候說兩分鐘也好三分鐘也好站在對面講了多久站在對面講了多久大家可以去計時基本上面的規矩跟規範這個國會的運作我再強調一次不是某一個人愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:17.238 --> 00:19.499\n麻煩有請立法院秘書長有請莊秘書長\n\n00:30.460 --> 00:53.374\n秘書長好,延續上一次在針對國會改革法案的時候對您所提出來的詢問我知道您作為立法院的秘書長基本上是一個行政幕僚總管的性質所以在很多法案上您不便表示意見,這個我都理解因此接下來在針對有關於國會改革相關法案關鍵\n\n00:54.895 --> 01:19.249\n重要的問題您在您方便的程度範圍內表達意見就好不用覺得太勉強過去這段時間不斷的有立委說依據大法官釋字729相關的議案只要有涉及刑事偵查立法院就不可以組成第二小組秘書長你贊成這樣的法律見解嗎\n\n01:20.711 --> 01:37.551\n是可以成立啦是可以成立啦由於他的規範齁是不違背7號、9號的歧視說得非常的好可不可以成立調閱小組啊跟調閱了以後可以調閱什麼東西啊這是兩個完全不同層次的事情秘書長你贊不贊成\n\n01:39.774 --> 01:45.600\n贊同贊成嘛7月9他的關鍵是什麼7月9他的關鍵是啊我們的立法院司法法制委員會成立了一個調閱小組以後跑去跟最高檢察署啊要求要調閱什麼要求調閱最高檢察署特他61啊的案件啊祕書長\n\n02:05.233 --> 02:32.599\n您知不知道為什麼會有大法官釋字729號解釋文當時有一些事情發生當初有一些事情發生嘛你講得非常非常的為外當初就是司法法制委員會成立了調閱小組嘛跟最高檢察署要調閱扣他60億的券嘛所以才被人家提釋憲嘛大法官才宣告違憲嘛他宣告違憲的是什麼\n\n02:33.439 --> 02:40.587\n你成立這個調閱小組了以後怎麼會去跟人家調閱偵查中的卷證呢是這一件事情被宣告違憲這個才是核心而當初這個監聽調閱小組提案要成立的正是民主進步黨的黨團\n\n02:53.780 --> 03:06.267\n要去調閱特他61的也正是民主進步黨的黨團要去調閱這一個所以被大法官4至7月9宣告違憲嘛民進黨團一天到晚在跟大家講毀憲亂政、毀憲亂政結果在我們的大法官釋憲史上729號\n\n03:15.540 --> 03:27.507\n在729號裡面被清楚地記下一筆的正式民主進步黨黨團當初要掉落東西第二個問題我就非常的納悶我就回顧當初監聽調閱專案小組那個時候的議事錄我發現\n\n03:34.690 --> 04:01.490\n那個時候要退他六十一有個非常重要的關鍵點那個重要的關鍵點是說因為我們的國會的電話是不是有被監聽那為什麼會產生國會的電話是不是有被監聽的問題因為那時候涉及到了我們那個時候立法院的院長王金平跟在野黨最大的黨鞭柯建民是不是有去關說司法的問題\n\n04:03.157 --> 04:28.617\n叫曾永夫交代高等檢察署的檢察官針對柯建民所涉及的刑事案件不可以提起上訴就是因為這件事情整個風暴才全部都起來但我看完了以後我發現很奇怪那個說2013年監聽調閱專案小組柯建民某個程度上可以說是涉案當事人\n\n04:29.861 --> 04:41.557\n他為什麼可以參加這個監聽調閱專案小組啊?律師長依照您的高度您對於立法院裡面利益衝突迴避的理解你認為這樣妥當嗎?\n\n04:43.251 --> 05:11.278\n因為那是由委員會來組成的我不太了解你也不太了解嘛所以按照秘書長您今天表示的意見是說以後我們成立不管是調閱委員會還是調閱小組涉案的當事人自己參與這個調閱小組都不會有什麼問題秘書長您的立場是這樣嗎按照相當規定去處理那你認為應該的相關規定是什麼\n\n05:13.345 --> 05:34.061\n涉及到有相關性的利害的當然有需要迴避需要迴避嘛OK齁秘書長您可能講到這邊啊我老實講已經是勇氣可嘉勇氣可嘉齁沒有關係第二個爭點過去又有民主進步黨的立委啊說政府惡毒一定\n\n05:34.707 --> 05:50.167\n要交付黨團協商。」那個時候他們提出這個主張的時候我就百思不得其解到底規範在哪裡結果今天民進黨自己提出來的法案終於承認了這件事情根本沒規範\n\n05:51.830 --> 06:07.476\n這件事情根本沒規範所以他們希望按照他們覺得他們想要的方式提了這個修正草案嘛秘書長我的理解有沒有錯誤如果容許我講兩分鐘可以是是是我給你兩分鐘\n\n06:09.397 --> 06:35.080\n因為當時在第四屆第六會期的時候在處理的時候因為是由黨團有給法治局做就是黨團協商是原則是由法治局來主政來寫條文啦那時候我才恰好是後面到台聯那邊去報告一些國會的運作回來以後當然在會的時候我是有加了第十條之一\n\n06:35.760 --> 07:03.340\n那當時的法治局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會進入二度那在實際運作上反而是爭議的話才會進入二度比較多啦那後來這事變成是一個漏洞那漏洞就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例所以這也是不成文的一個立規一個議事例啦並不是在法院有規定所以才會有第八條的第二項\n\n07:04.341 --> 07:24.462\n跟第三項如果有面臨到這個的時候按照案例就是會交黨團協商是這樣的一個整個一個過程好來那就問題就來了嘛第一個我們剛剛確認了目前立法院職權行使法也好議事規則也好從來沒有一條說進夫二讀要交付黨團協商我的理解正不正確\n\n07:26.752 --> 07:45.895\n好,那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛實際的例子在第十屆第一會期第十三次會議的時候民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔進復二讀的提案喔欸他沒有說要交付黨團協商欸他進復二讀的提案是什麼必!造案通過\n\n07:47.642 --> 08:12.177\n那奇怪囉?民主進步黨怎麼一方面要主張進步二讀一定要交付黨團協商喔?結果自己推的案子符合他們需要方便的時候這個進步二讀不用交黨團協商啊就直接照案通過啊因為我拜讀他們的提案表啊這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建民簽名的啊上面寫說您請願會進步二讀並什麼?照案通過\n\n08:16.038 --> 08:41.039\n那就奇怪啦!民進黨不是說進夫二讀一定要交付黨團協商嗎?怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢?這證明了什麼事?這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣\n\n08:42.961 --> 08:55.745\n別人近乎二讀不希望交付黨團協商他就說不行一定要交付黨團協商而自己近乎二讀然後失望造案通過他就什麼他就造案通過我算啦是很尊重主席的人啦主席站起來了我一定會尊重但大家啊\n\n09:08.829 --> 09:27.621\n所有在看的人可以去看看剛剛程序發言的時候說兩分鐘也好三分鐘也好站在對面講了多久站在對面講了多久大家可以去計時基本上面的規矩跟規範這個國會的運作我再強調一次不是某一個人愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":17.238,"end":19.499,"text":"麻煩有請立法院秘書長有請莊秘書長"},{"start":30.46,"end":53.374,"text":"秘書長好,延續上一次在針對國會改革法案的時候對您所提出來的詢問我知道您作為立法院的秘書長基本上是一個行政幕僚總管的性質所以在很多法案上您不便表示意見,這個我都理解因此接下來在針對有關於國會改革相關法案關鍵"},{"start":54.895,"end":79.249,"text":"重要的問題您在您方便的程度範圍內表達意見就好不用覺得太勉強過去這段時間不斷的有立委說依據大法官釋字729相關的議案只要有涉及刑事偵查立法院就不可以組成第二小組秘書長你贊成這樣的法律見解嗎"},{"start":80.711,"end":97.551,"text":"是可以成立啦是可以成立啦由於他的規範齁是不違背7號、9號的歧視說得非常的好可不可以成立調閱小組啊跟調閱了以後可以調閱什麼東西啊這是兩個完全不同層次的事情秘書長你贊不贊成"},{"start":99.774,"end":105.6,"text":"贊同贊成嘛7月9他的關鍵是什麼7月9他的關鍵是啊我們的立法院司法法制委員會成立了一個調閱小組以後跑去跟最高檢察署啊要求要調閱什麼要求調閱最高檢察署特他61啊的案件啊祕書長"},{"start":125.233,"end":152.599,"text":"您知不知道為什麼會有大法官釋字729號解釋文當時有一些事情發生當初有一些事情發生嘛你講得非常非常的為外當初就是司法法制委員會成立了調閱小組嘛跟最高檢察署要調閱扣他60億的券嘛所以才被人家提釋憲嘛大法官才宣告違憲嘛他宣告違憲的是什麼"},{"start":153.439,"end":160.587,"text":"你成立這個調閱小組了以後怎麼會去跟人家調閱偵查中的卷證呢是這一件事情被宣告違憲這個才是核心而當初這個監聽調閱小組提案要成立的正是民主進步黨的黨團"},{"start":173.78,"end":186.267,"text":"要去調閱特他61的也正是民主進步黨的黨團要去調閱這一個所以被大法官4至7月9宣告違憲嘛民進黨團一天到晚在跟大家講毀憲亂政、毀憲亂政結果在我們的大法官釋憲史上729號"},{"start":195.54,"end":207.507,"text":"在729號裡面被清楚地記下一筆的正式民主進步黨黨團當初要掉落東西第二個問題我就非常的納悶我就回顧當初監聽調閱專案小組那個時候的議事錄我發現"},{"start":214.69,"end":241.49,"text":"那個時候要退他六十一有個非常重要的關鍵點那個重要的關鍵點是說因為我們的國會的電話是不是有被監聽那為什麼會產生國會的電話是不是有被監聽的問題因為那時候涉及到了我們那個時候立法院的院長王金平跟在野黨最大的黨鞭柯建民是不是有去關說司法的問題"},{"start":243.157,"end":268.617,"text":"叫曾永夫交代高等檢察署的檢察官針對柯建民所涉及的刑事案件不可以提起上訴就是因為這件事情整個風暴才全部都起來但我看完了以後我發現很奇怪那個說2013年監聽調閱專案小組柯建民某個程度上可以說是涉案當事人"},{"start":269.861,"end":281.557,"text":"他為什麼可以參加這個監聽調閱專案小組啊?律師長依照您的高度您對於立法院裡面利益衝突迴避的理解你認為這樣妥當嗎?"},{"start":283.251,"end":311.278,"text":"因為那是由委員會來組成的我不太了解你也不太了解嘛所以按照秘書長您今天表示的意見是說以後我們成立不管是調閱委員會還是調閱小組涉案的當事人自己參與這個調閱小組都不會有什麼問題秘書長您的立場是這樣嗎按照相當規定去處理那你認為應該的相關規定是什麼"},{"start":313.345,"end":334.061,"text":"涉及到有相關性的利害的當然有需要迴避需要迴避嘛OK齁秘書長您可能講到這邊啊我老實講已經是勇氣可嘉勇氣可嘉齁沒有關係第二個爭點過去又有民主進步黨的立委啊說政府惡毒一定"},{"start":334.707,"end":350.167,"text":"要交付黨團協商。」那個時候他們提出這個主張的時候我就百思不得其解到底規範在哪裡結果今天民進黨自己提出來的法案終於承認了這件事情根本沒規範"},{"start":351.83,"end":367.476,"text":"這件事情根本沒規範所以他們希望按照他們覺得他們想要的方式提了這個修正草案嘛秘書長我的理解有沒有錯誤如果容許我講兩分鐘可以是是是我給你兩分鐘"},{"start":369.397,"end":395.08,"text":"因為當時在第四屆第六會期的時候在處理的時候因為是由黨團有給法治局做就是黨團協商是原則是由法治局來主政來寫條文啦那時候我才恰好是後面到台聯那邊去報告一些國會的運作回來以後當然在會的時候我是有加了第十條之一"},{"start":395.76,"end":423.34,"text":"那當時的法治局是認為大概比較沒有爭議的案會進入二度那在實際運作上反而是爭議的話才會進入二度比較多啦那後來這事變成是一個漏洞那漏洞就在公民投票法裡面有一個案例所以這也是不成文的一個立規一個議事例啦並不是在法院有規定所以才會有第八條的第二項"},{"start":424.341,"end":444.462,"text":"跟第三項如果有面臨到這個的時候按照案例就是會交黨團協商是這樣的一個整個一個過程好來那就問題就來了嘛第一個我們剛剛確認了目前立法院職權行使法也好議事規則也好從來沒有一條說進夫二讀要交付黨團協商我的理解正不正確"},{"start":446.752,"end":465.895,"text":"好,那我們接下來再看實際的例子嘛實際的例子在第十屆第一會期第十三次會議的時候民主進步黨黨團自己提案喔進復二讀的提案喔欸他沒有說要交付黨團協商欸他進復二讀的提案是什麼必!造案通過"},{"start":467.642,"end":492.177,"text":"那奇怪囉?民主進步黨怎麼一方面要主張進步二讀一定要交付黨團協商喔?結果自己推的案子符合他們需要方便的時候這個進步二讀不用交黨團協商啊就直接照案通過啊因為我拜讀他們的提案表啊這個是我們民主進步黨黨團總召柯建民簽名的啊上面寫說您請願會進步二讀並什麼?照案通過"},{"start":496.038,"end":521.039,"text":"那就奇怪啦!民進黨不是說進夫二讀一定要交付黨團協商嗎?怎麼會提出這樣子一個違反他們自己心中所認定的規定的提案呢?這證明了什麼事?這證明了民進黨心中他們在意的從來就不是立法院要怎麼建立規矩從來關心的就是我喜歡怎麼樣就怎麼樣"},{"start":522.961,"end":535.745,"text":"別人近乎二讀不希望交付黨團協商他就說不行一定要交付黨團協商而自己近乎二讀然後失望造案通過他就什麼他就造案通過我算啦是很尊重主席的人啦主席站起來了我一定會尊重但大家啊"},{"start":548.829,"end":567.621,"text":"所有在看的人可以去看看剛剛程序發言的時候說兩分鐘也好三分鐘也好站在對面講了多久站在對面講了多久大家可以去計時基本上面的規矩跟規範這個國會的運作我再強調一次不是某一個人愛怎麼幹就怎麼幹謝謝"}]}}}}