{"id":151427,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4452f660c102fc00c12cc5372cc05450cb2c5dab72e655c1c94b79a220842b8dbde5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:28:08 - 11:42:08","影片長度":"00:14:00","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告「如何增進海外僑胞對國家之認同與支持具體做法」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-14"},"date":"2024-04-18","duration":840,"end_time":"2024-04-18T11:42:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-18T11:28:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":496,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時28分）請委員長。"],["主席：請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：洪委員你好。"],["洪委員申翰：委員長好。從這幾年我們看了一下僑委會的預算裡面，大概滿清楚可以看到僑生的業務如果扣除一般的行政費用的話，其實占了整體業務費……我目前看到的數字是占了一半以上。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：所以這代表僑生來臺的政策其實是我們非常非常重要的政策方向，尤其是對僑委會裡面來說，委員長同意嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我同意。"],["洪委員申翰：所以，委員長我們看了這個書面報告，這個報告裡面也提到，讓海外僑生來臺接受教育，能促成他們更認識臺灣，甚至把好的人才留下來，甚至回到僑居地以後，大概發展出更多的校友組織，來把臺灣自由民主的價值，這大概也是我們二軌外交上面很重要的努力。","但委員長要看一下，監察院去年在12月的時候發布的一個調查報告裡面看到，其實僑委會從103年開始擴大辦理的這個計畫，103是2014年嘛！產學攜手合作僑生專班，畢業率跟留臺率都……"],["徐委員長佳青：非常低"],["洪委員申翰：偏低。"],["徐委員長佳青：非常低，對。"],["洪委員申翰：那目前完成7年的僑生總共是110年……他們大概在110年到112年3年的狀況裡面陸續畢業，從這表格裡面可以看到，其實畢業率跟留臺率都不到五成，甚至離五成是有很大一段距離。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["洪委員申翰：而且我最擔心的事情是，看起來這數字是逐年遞減，而且遞減的幅度非常大。委員長，這個部分僑委會有提出原因嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：有，我來了以後有認真地去看這些東西……"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["徐委員長佳青：監察院的這個報告我也很認真地去看了，等於去年出來報告是再更前一年的。"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["徐委員長佳青：事實上，這個計畫、產攜合作的專班是從2014年，就是103年開始。當時是有試辦性質，所以人數並不是很多。然後辦了3年，就是開始這3年有畢業生出現了嘛！我們有觀察到就是說，他們其實最容易離開的就是在高職端的時代。所以如果第1年、第2年他們不穩定的時候離開，你招生進來再多也沒有用。","所以我們現在是強化在高職端，因為那時候可能學生的年紀也偏輕，學校學生的輔導上面就需要給他們更多的援助。所以我們現在有2個措施在加強。第一個措施，通常適應不良原因是，第一個，他的華語能力還不太夠，所以怎麼強化他在來臺灣以前，他的華語程度就可以補充、增進。這樣的話，他的溝通能力跟他的適應力就會強化，這是第一個。","第二個，我們也要求學校，對於學生的生活照顧跟輔導上面，不要讓學生覺得說很孤單，沒有求助的這種狀況。還有一部分是，在最源頭，學生就帶著錯誤的資訊進來了。那這部分我確實不可諱言跟委員講……"],["洪委員申翰：委員長，我看了一下這個數據……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其是112年畢業的這一梯，幾乎只有1/4畢業跟留臺。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["洪委員申翰：坦白說，我覺得這恐怕稱不上是一個成功的計畫，甚至會被認為是一個失敗的計畫。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在這個狀況之下，我其實不想多做苛責，也許它前面有一個試辦的意義在，但恐怕它這個不會是單一的原因，尤其是當你的留臺率跟畢業率幾乎都不到1/4，我相信這恐怕不是單一原因，恐怕是很多原因；甚至在計畫一開始設計之初，就有一些事情沒弄對。"],["徐委員長佳青：不過，我跟委員報告，我們現在有在追蹤了。從106年開始的，就2017年開始之後，這些進來讀書的學生從3年的高職畢業端去接科技大學，現在穩定度就高很多了。就是說，他們不是在高職就離開……"],["洪委員申翰：我想先問委員長，在這個數據之下，我們有沒有做相關的比較完整的調查？就是他們的調查到底原因……各自沒有辦法畢業、沒有辦法留臺最主要的原因，或前3個對他們來講最有影響的原因，我們有沒有這個相關的調查？"],["徐委員長佳青：有、有、有，我們都有跟學校端說，為什麼這個學生讀了一年、兩年，他就離開？"],["洪委員申翰：那這調查可不可以……也許這禮拜可以送到我們辦公室一份？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們會把這個資料彙整。"],["洪委員申翰：就是原因探究的調查。以這個績效來說，這勢必是一定需要一個完整的檢討的嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["洪委員申翰：這一定沒有錯。我覺得這部分一定有一些量化的評估，包括量化的因素、包括相關的問卷。這禮拜把會呈現這個數據的原因的調查報告給我們，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["洪委員申翰：這禮拜好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。委員，你看一下，如果他真的有畢業以後，他的留臺率其實是很接近的，就比例上做起來就是高，就是等於說他畢業完留臺就有高達9成的意思。所以我們現在就是緊盯著說，他為什麼在高職端就離開了？所以第一個，高職端他如果可以通過以後，通常穩定度就很高，因為他的適應力就增強了。所以我們現在都會緊盯著我們所有的高職端的這些狀況，我們會把資料整理好給您。"],["洪委員申翰：因為僑生的業務占僑委會這麼大的比例，這麼一個重要的政策卻呈現這個數據，我知道委員長一定會……"],["徐委員長佳青：不過，委員，我們的預算增加比例是從去年才開始增加的，在那之前並沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：對，我知道對委員長來說，你應該是會做很多的檢討，我覺得這個檢討包括可能會牽涉到需要有些跨部會的部分。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：包括對教育部、包括勞動部的部分。我希望看到具體的數據跟……到底這個因素的分析下面……"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["洪委員申翰：才比較能夠給出一個完整的藥方。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["洪委員申翰：第二個是我接下來想跟委員長請教，我們其實在2019遠見雜誌裡面看到一個報導，這報導裡面講到，隨著政府擴大僑生專班的招生，背後開始傳出有人力仲介運作的影子，甚至我們看到國內部分私立學校因為它的招生人數不足，所以它到海外去的時候，需要當地懂這個語言的人幫忙，所以傳出每一位學生要支付1萬元的臺幣給仲介的業者，那是由這個學校跟僑生各付一半。","可能也不只有人力仲介的部分，我們也看到，也有部分的檢舉說，僑委會遴選出來的這些保薦單位，來審核僑生資格的保薦單位，他以簽核每位學生100到200美元，大概3,000元到6,000元臺幣的行情，來收所謂的「咖啡錢」。委員長，對於這些訊息你的看法是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們其實都有跟學校特別提醒，就是我們絕對禁絕有仲介介入。對於保薦單位，一旦被我們查到一個個案，我們就會取消他的保薦資格。所以這一方面，我們在遴選保薦單位的時候，都會跟他們講得很清楚，他們也要簽下切結書跟保證書。所以我們如果在後端，一旦有人來跟我們檢舉有這樣的個案的時候，我們就跟他解約。"],["洪委員申翰：委員長，第一個，我前面先講人力仲介的部分。人力仲介的部分，因為那是2019的新聞，如果你們有改善，那也讓我們知道你們具體提出改善的做法是什麼、怎麼杜絕這種不當的或非法的人力仲介。他要拿出做法，可能不是只是口頭警告而已。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的，是的。"],["洪委員申翰：實際上面具體的做法是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們要多管齊下，因為我們有去研究為什麼這些仲介可以做出這些行為，最主要的原因有兩項。第一項是，因為大部分的僑生跟家長，或者外籍生，他們由於語言的程度上面不足，無法了解我們這些方案增生的核心內容，那這些仲介就有機會在這裡操作，把不實的訊息給他們。所以確實有僑生來臺灣以後為什麼離職，跟這個有一點關係，就是說他以為他是來臺灣工作的，但事實上我們明明是讓他來讀書，加上產學合作的實習。因為他資訊的錯誤，他就會說「我期待落差」，所以讀一年就離開。他說：「我不是來工作嗎？你怎麼叫我在學校讀書？」"],["洪委員申翰：所以如果從剛剛那個新聞裡面可以看到的事情是，假設這新聞講的是真的，私校到海外招生，人生地不熟，需要語言的幫忙，照理來說，這個需要語言的服務，或者是語言人才的供給，這是政府可以協助的地方。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，所以……"],["洪委員申翰：因為私校要招生這件事情不是只是私校自己的問題，這也是一個國家的教育政策的問題。"],["徐委員長佳青：正確。"],["洪委員申翰：所以今天從政府的角度，我們應該提供這些私校，你要去海外招生的時候，你的語言協助我們怎麼協助你，你不用自己人生地不熟去找那邊能夠提供你語言的服務，變成他可以在這裡面操弄或中介這些資訊嘛！所以照理來說，僑委會或者我們教育部其實應該跟他們討論說，你們如果去海外招生需要語言人才的話，政府可以協助你嘛！包括你在各地的僑社，或者是相關這些駐點的單位可以協助的部分，這應該我們要主動表達。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。所以我們現在多管齊下，我們多管齊下的做法有以下幾個：第一個，就是我們把所有的資訊做多語化的處理。今天送到越南的一定有越南文，跟華語並列，還有英文，至少有這樣子；到菲律賓，我們也是英文、華語；到了印尼，印尼文、英文、華語；到了柬埔寨、到了泰國，泰語、英語跟華語都是並列。"],["洪委員申翰：委員長，我們希望你們可以提供給我們一個資訊跟報告，就是我們到底怎麼來協助這些……我們國內的單位要到海外去攬才，或者是要來招生的時候，我們怎麼提供給他我們相關的翻譯，或者是語言人才的協助，這是第一個。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["洪委員申翰：第二件事，我必須說，我看到這個「咖啡錢」的部分，我自己會有一個擔心，擔心的點是什麼呢？假如每一個審核他可以收錢的話，如果從這些單位來說，他可能覺得：那我收越多越好；甚至我找到一些不適合來臺灣的，我都可以收錢。對不對？這其實會有一些道德風險哦！"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有錯，所以我們也……"],["洪委員申翰：所以會不會因為他們舉薦一些不一定很適合的，所以也變成你最後留臺跟畢業率會降低？因為他如果協助找了不適合的人來，他可能覺得說「我要來收前面的這一筆咖啡錢」，那變成他不適合來到臺灣以後，你後面的畢業率跟留臺率當然不會高嘛！這前後之間，其實可能會是有邏輯上面的關係。所以我覺得這部分要請僑委會非常非常重視、注意，這件事是絕對不能發生，因為這會有道德風險，甚至會連動到你們事後畢業率、留臺率這些相關的績效，也都會影響的事情啊！"],["徐委員長佳青：是，洪委員你這個提醒我非常同意，因為2019年之前確實有好幾個案例，所以這幾年我們都非常緊密地在監視這些事情。包括我們對保薦單位，他們只能收最多20塊美金，是做什麼呢？因為他們要幫他們郵寄資料，有一些郵資費用；或者他們要幫他們申請表格，有一些印刷費用。除此之外，他們不可以收其他任何的費用。所以我們的保薦單位我自己都親自run了一圈，跟他們做說明會的時候，就有特別強調這些事情。絕大多數保薦單位，我必須說，他們真的是熱心在幫忙我們，而且他們自己都很有錢。"],["洪委員申翰：委員長，我覺得是，他今天在幫忙這個業務上面，合理的成本我們該給他的，就應該給他，讓它變成是合法的，而不是變成私下的、非法的。"],["徐委員長佳青：沒錯。"],["洪委員申翰：所以讓他合法的支出能夠有他獲得的方式，我覺得這是合理的事情。"],["徐委員長佳青：所以我們也會跟學生說，你們最多就付20塊美金的工本費而已。"],["洪委員申翰：對。那他如果說需要什麼業務上面協助的經費，我覺得我們用預算的編列來提供給他，這是合法的，我都贊成。但是如果他自己的成本他覺得無法cover，變成他要去收這些非法的「咖啡錢」的話，那我覺得就很多事情被扭曲了。"],["徐委員長佳青：還有另外一方，就是我們對國內學校也是加強做這樣子的要求，說要簽切結書。你今天要參加這個方案，我一定要禁絕仲介。所以如果你被我抓到，那麼你下一個年度再申請的時候，你可能就不過了。"],["洪委員申翰：委員長，我跟你說，不管是剛才說的人力仲介，或這部分這樣子的佣金，我們會特別關注。我們希望合法的收入可以讓這些協助我們的單位，其實該付給他的就付給他，該得到的就得到，這沒有問題。但是非法的，我覺得我們一定要嚴厲地查緝。"],["徐委員長佳青：有些代辦費我們可以了解……"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["徐委員長佳青：這個是合理的成本。"],["洪委員申翰：甚至我說他的支出裡面，他真的有些必要支出，我都贊成我們有些可以編列預算、編列經費，來協助他們去cover這些事情，這是合理的、合法的，我覺得沒有問題。但不要落入一個非法的抽佣的狀況……"],["徐委員長佳青：不能商業機制，沒錯。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員申翰：不要變成非法抽佣，這後面道德風險太大了，會讓你整套機制的設計可能都會歪掉。好，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝洪委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。這個部分可能沒有那麼簡單，我想請委員長再去了解一下，表面跟實際上在執行的時候，是不是現在有問題，我想這個很容易查得出來。","接下來我們請邱志偉委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":98,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-14","speakers":["馬文君","沈伯洋","羅美玲","黃仁","林楚茵","王定宇","陳冠廷","徐巧芯","麥玉珍","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","洪申翰","邱志偉","陳培瑜","羅智強"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-04-18"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告「如何增進海外僑胞對國家之認同與支持具體做法」，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"151427","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151427","tool":"pyannote","id":"151427-pyannote"},"job_id":"GIzsB1DuM0qx5LQl","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"業\"}, {\"word\": \"率\", \"start\": 675.221, \"end\": 675.461, \"score\": 0.708}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"降\", \"start\": 675.461, \"end\": 675.742, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"低\", \"start\": 675.742, \"end\": 676.262, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 676.262, \"end\": 676.523, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 676.523, \"end\": 676.683, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 676.683, \"end\": 676.863, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 676.863, \"end\": 677.444, \"score\": 0.958}, {\"word\": \"協\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 677.444, \"end\": 677.664, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"找\", \"start\": 677.664, \"end\": 677.864, \"score\": 0.674}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 677.864, \"end\": 678.004, \"score\": 0.731}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 678.004, \"end\": 678.345, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"適\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 678.345, \"end\": 678.505, \"score\": 0.892}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 678.505, \"end\": 678.645, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 678.645, \"end\": 679.206, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 679.206, \"end\": 679.326, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 679.326, \"end\": 679.406, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 679.406, \"end\": 679.646, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 679.646, \"end\": 679.946, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 679.946, \"end\": 680.127, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 680.127, \"end\": 680.287, \"score\": 0.823}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"收\", \"start\": 680.287, \"end\": 680.547, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 680.547, \"end\": 680.707, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 680.707, \"end\": 680.847, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 680.847, \"end\": 681.268, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": 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00:00:33,518\n委員長好從這幾年我們看了一下僑委會的預算裡面大家蠻清楚可以看到僑生的業務其實如果扣除一般的行政費用的話其實佔的整體優惠我目前看到的數字是佔了一半以上是的那所以這代表其實僑生來台的政策其實是我們非常非常重要的政策方案尤其是對僑委會裡面來說委員長同意嗎我同意好\n\n3\n00:00:38,360 --> 00:01:04,698\n所以委員長我們一直很看著這個書面的報告其實這個報告裡面也提到讓海外僑生來臺接受教育能促成他們更認識臺灣那甚至把好的人才留下來甚至回到僑居地以後那大概發展出更多的這些效果組織來把臺灣的這個自由民主的價值這大概也是我們俄國外交上面很重要的努力但這個委員長要看一下\n\n4\n00:01:06,179 --> 00:01:13,181\n監察院去年在12月的時候發布的一個調查報告裡面看到其實僑委會從103年開始擴大辦理的這個計畫103是2014年這個產學攜手合作僑生專班那這個畢業率跟留台率都相當偏低\n\n5\n00:01:27,406 --> 00:01:55,379\n那在目前這完成3加7年的喬森總共是110年但他們大概在110年到112年3年的狀況裡面陸續畢業但從這表格裡面可以看到其實畢業率跟留台率都不到五成甚至離五成是有很大一段距離而且我最擔心的事情是看起來這數字是逐年遞減而且遞減的幅度非常大這個委員長這個部分喬森會有提出原因嗎\n\n6\n00:01:56,555 --> 00:02:07,521\n有,我來了以後有認真的去看這些東西那監察院的這個報告我也很認真的去看了它是等於去年出來的報告是在更前一年的那事實上這個計畫從產息合作的專班是2014年就是103年開始當時是有事辦性質\n\n7\n00:02:15,786 --> 00:02:30,027\n所以人數並不是很多然後辦了三年就是開始這三年有畢業生出現了我們有觀察到就是說他們其實最容易離開的就是在高值端的時代\n\n8\n00:02:30,888 --> 00:02:56,883\n所以如果第一年第二年他們不穩定的時候離開你招生進來再多也沒有用所以我們現在是強化在這個高職端因為那時候可能學生的年紀也偏輕然後學校學生的輔導上面就需要給他們更多的援助所以我們現在有兩個措施在加強第一個措施呢通常適應不良的原因是第一個他華語能力還不太夠\n\n9\n00:02:57,823 --> 00:03:03,064\n所以怎麼強化他在來台灣以前他的華語程度就可以補充增進那這樣的話他的溝通能力跟他的適應力就會強化這是第一個第二個呢是我們也要求學校就是說對於學生的這個生活照顧跟輔導上面不要讓學生覺得說很孤單沒有求助的這種狀況那還有一部分是就在最源頭學生就帶著錯誤的資訊進來了\n\n10\n00:03:27,290 --> 00:03:30,620\n這部分我確實不可諱言跟委員講委員長我看了一下這個數據\n\n11\n00:03:34,316 --> 00:03:56,357\n尤其是112年畢業的這一梯幾乎只有四分之一畢業跟留台坦白說我覺得恐怕稱不上是一個成功的計畫甚至會被認為是一個失敗的計畫在這個狀況之下我其實不想多做苛責也許它前面有一個事半的意義在但恐怕它這個不會是單一的原因\n\n12\n00:03:57,017 --> 00:04:14,000\n尤其是當你的留台率跟畢業率幾乎都不到四分之一我相信這恐怕不是單一原因恐怕是很多原因甚至在計畫一開始設計之初就有一些事情沒弄對不過我跟委員報告我們現在有在追蹤了就是說從106年開始的就2017年開始之後這些近來讀書的學生從三年的高職畢業端去接科技大學現在穩定度就高很多了\n\n13\n00:04:25,402 --> 00:04:53,192\n就是他們不是在高職就離開我想先問委員長說在這個數據之下我們有沒有做相關的比較完整的調查就是他們的調查到底原因各自沒有辦法畢業沒有辦法留台最主要的原因或前三個對他們來講最有影響的原因是我們有沒有這個相關的有有有我們都有跟學校端說為什麼這個學生讀了一年兩年他就離開那這個調查可不可以也許這禮拜可以送到我們辦公室一份我們會把這個資料彙整原因的\n\n14\n00:04:54,372 --> 00:04:56,653\n委員你看一下如果他真的有畢業以後他的留台率其實是很接近的\n\n15\n00:05:21,227 --> 00:05:22,048\n因為這個僑生的業務占僑委會這麼大的比例\n\n16\n00:05:48,704 --> 00:05:48,724\n韓國瑜議員\n\n17\n00:06:05,430 --> 00:06:05,650\n主席\n\n18\n00:06:22,946 --> 00:06:37,325\n2019的遠見的雜誌裡面看到一個報導這報導裡面講到其實這個隨著政府擴大僑身專班的招生那背後開始傳出有人力仲介的運作的影子\n\n19\n00:06:37,985 --> 00:07:03,063\n甚至我們看到國內部分私立學校因為他的招生人數不足所以他到海外去的時候需要當地懂這個語言的幫忙所以傳出每一位學生要支付一萬元的台幣給這個仲介的業者那是由這個學校跟僑生各付一半那可能也不只有這個人力仲介的部分我們也看到下一張\n\n20\n00:07:04,990 --> 00:07:25,712\n有部分的檢舉說僑委會領選而出來的這些保健單位來審核僑生資格的保健單位他已簽合每位學生100到200美元大概3000塊到6000塊台幣的行情來收所謂的咖啡錢委員長對於這些訊息你的看法是什麼\n\n21\n00:07:27,971 --> 00:07:44,101\n我們其實都有跟學校特別提醒就是說我們絕對禁絕有仲介介入那對於這個保健單位一旦被我們查到一個個案我們就會取消他的保健資格\n\n22\n00:07:45,021 --> 00:07:55,827\n所以這一方面呢我們在領選保健單位的時候都要跟他們講得很清楚他們也要簽下切結書跟保證書所以我們如果在後端一旦有人來跟我們檢舉有這樣的個案的時候我們就跟他解約\n\n23\n00:07:58,700 --> 00:08:22,828\n委員長第一個我前面先講人力仲介的部分人力仲介的部分因為那是2019的新聞那如果你們有改善那也讓我們知道你們具體提出改善的做法是什麼怎麼杜絕這種不當的或非法的人力仲介他要拿出做法可能不是只是口頭警告而已那實際上面具體的做法是什麼\n\n24\n00:08:23,228 --> 00:08:41,981\n我們要多管齊下因為我們有去研究說為什麼這些仲介可以做出這些行為最主要的原因有兩項第一項就是說因為大部分的僑生跟家長或者外籍生他們由於語言的程度上面不足\n\n25\n00:08:42,762 --> 00:08:55,851\n無法了解我們這些方案真身的核心內容那這些仲介就有機會在這裡操作把不實的訊息給他們所以確實有喬森來台灣以後為什麼離職跟這個有一點關係就是說他以為他是來台灣工作的但事實上我們明明是讓他來讀書加上產學合作的實習那因為他資訊的錯誤他就會說我期待落差所以給我讀一年就離開他說我不是來工作嗎你怎麼叫我再需要讀\n\n26\n00:09:10,762 --> 00:09:32,368\n所以如果從剛剛那個新聞裡面可以看到的事情是假設我們按照那假設這新聞講的是真的是私校到海外招生生生地部手需要語言的幫忙照理來說這個需要語言的服務對或者是語言人才的供給這是政府可以協助的地方對所以因為私校要招生這件事情不是只是私校自己的問題是這也是一個國家的教育政策的問題正確\n\n27\n00:09:33,248 --> 00:09:55,496\n所以今天從政府的角度我們應該提供這些私校你要去海外招生的時候你的語言協助我們怎麼協助你你不用自己人生地不熟去找那邊的這個能夠提供你語言的服務變成他可以在這裡面操弄或中介這些資訊嘛所以這是照理來說這應該是僑友會或者我們教育部其實應該跟他們討論說你們如果需要去海外招生的人才\n\n28\n00:09:56,076 --> 00:10:03,999\n需要語言人才的話政府可以協助你嘛包括你在各地的僑社或者是相關這些駐點的單位可以協助的部分所以我們現在主動表達多管齊下我們多管齊下的做法有幾個以下第一個就是我們把所有的資訊呢做多語化的處理今天送到越南的一定有越南文跟華語並列還有英文至少有這樣子那到菲律賓我們也是英文華語到了印尼印尼文英文華語\n\n29\n00:10:25,247 --> 00:10:26,748\n我看到這個咖啡錢的部分我自己會有一個擔心\n\n30\n00:10:50,024 --> 00:11:02,839\n擔心的點是什麼呢假如每一個審核他可以收錢的話其實如果從這些單位來說他可能覺得那我收越多越好甚至我找到一些不適合來台灣的我都可以收錢對不對\n\n31\n00:11:04,670 --> 00:11:21,468\n這其實會有一些道德風險喔沒有錯所以會不會也是因為其實變成是他們其實包括舉薦的一些其實不一定很適合的所以也變成你最後留台跟畢業率會降低因為他如果協助找了不適合的人來他可能覺得說我要來收前面的這筆咖啡錢\n\n32\n00:11:22,429 --> 00:11:45,539\n那你變成他不適合來到台灣以後你這個後面的畢業率跟留台率當然不會高嘛這前後之間其實可能會是有邏輯上面的關係的所以我覺得這部分要請僑委會非常非常重視注意說這件事是絕對不能發生因為這會有道德風險甚至會連動到你們事後畢業率留台率這些相關的績效也都會影響的事情啊\n\n33\n00:11:45,799 --> 00:12:02,125\n是洪委員你這個提醒我非常同意因為2019年之前確實有好幾個案例所以這幾年我們都很非常緊密的在監視這些事情然後包括我們對保健單位只能說他們只能收最多20塊錢的美金是做什麼呢因為他們要幫他們郵寄資料有一些郵資費用\n\n34\n00:12:08,907 --> 00:12:28,820\n那或者他們要幫他們申請表格有一些印刷費用除此之外他們不可以收其他任何的費用所以我們的保健單位我自己都親自run了一圈跟他們做說明會的時候就特別強調這些事情那絕大多數保健單位我必須說他們是真的是熱心在幫忙我們而且他們自己都很有錢\n\n35\n00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:55,947\n委員長我覺得是他今天在幫忙這個業務上面合理的成本我們該給他的就應該給他讓他變成是合法的而不是變成私下的非法的所以讓他的合法的支出能夠有能夠他獲得的方式我覺得這是合理的事情所以我們也會跟學生說你們最多就付20塊每天的公本費而已那他如果說需要什麼業務上面的協助的經費如果需要的話我覺得我們用預算的編列來提供給他這是合法的我都贊成\n\n36\n00:12:56,867 --> 00:13:16,805\n但是如果他變成說他自己的成本他覺得無法cover他變成要去收這些非法的咖啡錢的話還有另外一方就是我們對國內學校也是加強做這樣子的要求說要簽卸結書你今天要參加這個方案我一定要敬絕仲介所以如果你被我抓到那麼你下一個年度再申請的時候你可能就\n\n37\n00:13:18,447 --> 00:13:31,241\n這個委員長我跟你說不管是剛才說的人力仲介或這部分這樣子的佣金我們會特別關注那我們希望合法的收入可以讓這些協助我們單位他其實該付給他的就付給他該得到就得到這沒有問題\n\n38\n00:13:32,102 --> 00:13:39,828\n但是非法的我覺得我們一定要嚴厲的打擊有些貸辦費我們可以了解是說對這個是合理的根本甚至的我說他的支出裡面他真的有些必要支出我都贊成我們有些編列預算編列經費來協助他們去cover這些事情這是合理的合法的我覺得沒有問題但不要落入一個非法的抽擁的狀況不能商業機制不要變成非法非法抽擁這後面到的風險太大了會讓你整套的機制的設計可能都會歪掉這樣子好謝謝謝謝洪委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n960\t2121\t呃僑務委員長僑務委員長侯委員你好\n10066\t33518\t委員長好從這幾年我們看了一下僑委會的預算裡面大家蠻清楚可以看到僑生的業務其實如果扣除一般的行政費用的話其實佔的整體優惠我目前看到的數字是佔了一半以上是的那所以這代表其實僑生來台的政策其實是我們非常非常重要的政策方案尤其是對僑委會裡面來說委員長同意嗎我同意好\n38360\t64698\t所以委員長我們一直很看著這個書面的報告其實這個報告裡面也提到讓海外僑生來臺接受教育能促成他們更認識臺灣那甚至把好的人才留下來甚至回到僑居地以後那大概發展出更多的這些效果組織來把臺灣的這個自由民主的價值這大概也是我們俄國外交上面很重要的努力但這個委員長要看一下\n66179\t73181\t監察院去年在12月的時候發布的一個調查報告裡面看到其實僑委會從103年開始擴大辦理的這個計畫103是2014年這個產學攜手合作僑生專班那這個畢業率跟留台率都相當偏低\n87406\t115379\t那在目前這完成3加7年的喬森總共是110年但他們大概在110年到112年3年的狀況裡面陸續畢業但從這表格裡面可以看到其實畢業率跟留台率都不到五成甚至離五成是有很大一段距離而且我最擔心的事情是看起來這數字是逐年遞減而且遞減的幅度非常大這個委員長這個部分喬森會有提出原因嗎\n116555\t127521\t有,我來了以後有認真的去看這些東西那監察院的這個報告我也很認真的去看了它是等於去年出來的報告是在更前一年的那事實上這個計畫從產息合作的專班是2014年就是103年開始當時是有事辦性質\n135786\t150027\t所以人數並不是很多然後辦了三年就是開始這三年有畢業生出現了我們有觀察到就是說他們其實最容易離開的就是在高值端的時代\n150888\t176883\t所以如果第一年第二年他們不穩定的時候離開你招生進來再多也沒有用所以我們現在是強化在這個高職端因為那時候可能學生的年紀也偏輕然後學校學生的輔導上面就需要給他們更多的援助所以我們現在有兩個措施在加強第一個措施呢通常適應不良的原因是第一個他華語能力還不太夠\n177823\t183064\t所以怎麼強化他在來台灣以前他的華語程度就可以補充增進那這樣的話他的溝通能力跟他的適應力就會強化這是第一個第二個呢是我們也要求學校就是說對於學生的這個生活照顧跟輔導上面不要讓學生覺得說很孤單沒有求助的這種狀況那還有一部分是就在最源頭學生就帶著錯誤的資訊進來了\n207290\t210620\t這部分我確實不可諱言跟委員講委員長我看了一下這個數據\n214316\t236357\t尤其是112年畢業的這一梯幾乎只有四分之一畢業跟留台坦白說我覺得恐怕稱不上是一個成功的計畫甚至會被認為是一個失敗的計畫在這個狀況之下我其實不想多做苛責也許它前面有一個事半的意義在但恐怕它這個不會是單一的原因\n237017\t254000\t尤其是當你的留台率跟畢業率幾乎都不到四分之一我相信這恐怕不是單一原因恐怕是很多原因甚至在計畫一開始設計之初就有一些事情沒弄對不過我跟委員報告我們現在有在追蹤了就是說從106年開始的就2017年開始之後這些近來讀書的學生從三年的高職畢業端去接科技大學現在穩定度就高很多了\n265402\t293192\t就是他們不是在高職就離開我想先問委員長說在這個數據之下我們有沒有做相關的比較完整的調查就是他們的調查到底原因各自沒有辦法畢業沒有辦法留台最主要的原因或前三個對他們來講最有影響的原因是我們有沒有這個相關的有有有我們都有跟學校端說為什麼這個學生讀了一年兩年他就離開那這個調查可不可以也許這禮拜可以送到我們辦公室一份我們會把這個資料彙整原因的\n294372\t296653\t委員你看一下如果他真的有畢業以後他的留台率其實是很接近的\n321227\t322048\t因為這個僑生的業務占僑委會這麼大的比例\n348704\t348724\t韓國瑜議員\n365430\t365650\t主席\n382946\t397325\t2019的遠見的雜誌裡面看到一個報導這報導裡面講到其實這個隨著政府擴大僑身專班的招生那背後開始傳出有人力仲介的運作的影子\n397985\t423063\t甚至我們看到國內部分私立學校因為他的招生人數不足所以他到海外去的時候需要當地懂這個語言的幫忙所以傳出每一位學生要支付一萬元的台幣給這個仲介的業者那是由這個學校跟僑生各付一半那可能也不只有這個人力仲介的部分我們也看到下一張\n424990\t445712\t有部分的檢舉說僑委會領選而出來的這些保健單位來審核僑生資格的保健單位他已簽合每位學生100到200美元大概3000塊到6000塊台幣的行情來收所謂的咖啡錢委員長對於這些訊息你的看法是什麼\n447971\t464101\t我們其實都有跟學校特別提醒就是說我們絕對禁絕有仲介介入那對於這個保健單位一旦被我們查到一個個案我們就會取消他的保健資格\n465021\t475827\t所以這一方面呢我們在領選保健單位的時候都要跟他們講得很清楚他們也要簽下切結書跟保證書所以我們如果在後端一旦有人來跟我們檢舉有這樣的個案的時候我們就跟他解約\n478700\t502828\t委員長第一個我前面先講人力仲介的部分人力仲介的部分因為那是2019的新聞那如果你們有改善那也讓我們知道你們具體提出改善的做法是什麼怎麼杜絕這種不當的或非法的人力仲介他要拿出做法可能不是只是口頭警告而已那實際上面具體的做法是什麼\n503228\t521981\t我們要多管齊下因為我們有去研究說為什麼這些仲介可以做出這些行為最主要的原因有兩項第一項就是說因為大部分的僑生跟家長或者外籍生他們由於語言的程度上面不足\n522762\t535851\t無法了解我們這些方案真身的核心內容那這些仲介就有機會在這裡操作把不實的訊息給他們所以確實有喬森來台灣以後為什麼離職跟這個有一點關係就是說他以為他是來台灣工作的但事實上我們明明是讓他來讀書加上產學合作的實習那因為他資訊的錯誤他就會說我期待落差所以給我讀一年就離開他說我不是來工作嗎你怎麼叫我再需要讀\n550762\t572368\t所以如果從剛剛那個新聞裡面可以看到的事情是假設我們按照那假設這新聞講的是真的是私校到海外招生生生地部手需要語言的幫忙照理來說這個需要語言的服務對或者是語言人才的供給這是政府可以協助的地方對所以因為私校要招生這件事情不是只是私校自己的問題是這也是一個國家的教育政策的問題正確\n573248\t595496\t所以今天從政府的角度我們應該提供這些私校你要去海外招生的時候你的語言協助我們怎麼協助你你不用自己人生地不熟去找那邊的這個能夠提供你語言的服務變成他可以在這裡面操弄或中介這些資訊嘛所以這是照理來說這應該是僑友會或者我們教育部其實應該跟他們討論說你們如果需要去海外招生的人才\n596076\t603999\t需要語言人才的話政府可以協助你嘛包括你在各地的僑社或者是相關這些駐點的單位可以協助的部分所以我們現在主動表達多管齊下我們多管齊下的做法有幾個以下第一個就是我們把所有的資訊呢做多語化的處理今天送到越南的一定有越南文跟華語並列還有英文至少有這樣子那到菲律賓我們也是英文華語到了印尼印尼文英文華語\n625247\t626748\t我看到這個咖啡錢的部分我自己會有一個擔心\n650024\t662839\t擔心的點是什麼呢假如每一個審核他可以收錢的話其實如果從這些單位來說他可能覺得那我收越多越好甚至我找到一些不適合來台灣的我都可以收錢對不對\n664670\t681468\t這其實會有一些道德風險喔沒有錯所以會不會也是因為其實變成是他們其實包括舉薦的一些其實不一定很適合的所以也變成你最後留台跟畢業率會降低因為他如果協助找了不適合的人來他可能覺得說我要來收前面的這筆咖啡錢\n682429\t705539\t那你變成他不適合來到台灣以後你這個後面的畢業率跟留台率當然不會高嘛這前後之間其實可能會是有邏輯上面的關係的所以我覺得這部分要請僑委會非常非常重視注意說這件事是絕對不能發生因為這會有道德風險甚至會連動到你們事後畢業率留台率這些相關的績效也都會影響的事情啊\n705799\t722125\t是 洪委員你這個提醒我非常同意因為2019年之前確實有好幾個案例所以這幾年我們都很非常緊密的在監視這些事情然後包括我們對保健單位只能說他們只能收最多20塊錢的美金是做什麼呢因為他們要幫他們郵寄資料有一些郵資費用\n728907\t748820\t那或者他們要幫他們申請表格有一些印刷費用除此之外他們不可以收其他任何的費用所以我們的保健單位我自己都親自run了一圈跟他們做說明會的時候就特別強調這些事情那絕大多數保健單位我必須說他們是真的是熱心在幫忙我們而且他們自己都很有錢\n749420\t775947\t委員長我覺得是他今天在幫忙這個業務上面合理的成本我們該給他的就應該給他讓他變成是合法的而不是變成私下的非法的所以讓他的合法的支出能夠有能夠他獲得的方式我覺得這是合理的事情所以我們也會跟學生說你們最多就付20塊每天的公本費而已那他如果說需要什麼業務上面的協助的經費如果需要的話我覺得我們用預算的編列來提供給他這是合法的我都贊成\n776867\t796805\t但是如果他變成說他自己的成本他覺得無法cover他變成要去收這些非法的咖啡錢的話還有另外一方就是我們對國內學校也是加強做這樣子的要求說要簽卸結書你今天要參加這個方案我一定要敬絕仲介所以如果你被我抓到那麼你下一個年度再申請的時候你可能就\n798447\t811241\t這個委員長我跟你說不管是剛才說的人力仲介或這部分這樣子的佣金我們會特別關注那我們希望合法的收入可以讓這些協助我們單位他其實該付給他的就付給他該得到就得到這沒有問題\n812102\t819828\t但是非法的我覺得我們一定要嚴厲的打擊有些貸辦費我們可以了解是說對這個是合理的根本甚至的我說他的支出裡面他真的有些必要支出我都贊成我們有些編列預算編列經費來協助他們去cover這些事情這是合理的合法的我覺得沒有問題但不要落入一個非法的抽擁的狀況不能商業機制不要變成非法非法抽擁這後面到的風險太大了會讓你整套的機制的設計可能都會歪掉這樣子好謝謝謝謝洪委員\n","txt":"呃僑務委員長僑務委員長侯委員你好\n委員長好從這幾年我們看了一下僑委會的預算裡面大家蠻清楚可以看到僑生的業務其實如果扣除一般的行政費用的話其實佔的整體優惠我目前看到的數字是佔了一半以上是的那所以這代表其實僑生來台的政策其實是我們非常非常重要的政策方案尤其是對僑委會裡面來說委員長同意嗎我同意好\n所以委員長我們一直很看著這個書面的報告其實這個報告裡面也提到讓海外僑生來臺接受教育能促成他們更認識臺灣那甚至把好的人才留下來甚至回到僑居地以後那大概發展出更多的這些效果組織來把臺灣的這個自由民主的價值這大概也是我們俄國外交上面很重要的努力但這個委員長要看一下\n監察院去年在12月的時候發布的一個調查報告裡面看到其實僑委會從103年開始擴大辦理的這個計畫103是2014年這個產學攜手合作僑生專班那這個畢業率跟留台率都相當偏低\n那在目前這完成3加7年的喬森總共是110年但他們大概在110年到112年3年的狀況裡面陸續畢業但從這表格裡面可以看到其實畢業率跟留台率都不到五成甚至離五成是有很大一段距離而且我最擔心的事情是看起來這數字是逐年遞減而且遞減的幅度非常大這個委員長這個部分喬森會有提出原因嗎\n有,我來了以後有認真的去看這些東西那監察院的這個報告我也很認真的去看了它是等於去年出來的報告是在更前一年的那事實上這個計畫從產息合作的專班是2014年就是103年開始當時是有事辦性質\n所以人數並不是很多然後辦了三年就是開始這三年有畢業生出現了我們有觀察到就是說他們其實最容易離開的就是在高值端的時代\n所以如果第一年第二年他們不穩定的時候離開你招生進來再多也沒有用所以我們現在是強化在這個高職端因為那時候可能學生的年紀也偏輕然後學校學生的輔導上面就需要給他們更多的援助所以我們現在有兩個措施在加強第一個措施呢通常適應不良的原因是第一個他華語能力還不太夠\n所以怎麼強化他在來台灣以前他的華語程度就可以補充增進那這樣的話他的溝通能力跟他的適應力就會強化這是第一個第二個呢是我們也要求學校就是說對於學生的這個生活照顧跟輔導上面不要讓學生覺得說很孤單沒有求助的這種狀況那還有一部分是就在最源頭學生就帶著錯誤的資訊進來了\n這部分我確實不可諱言跟委員講委員長我看了一下這個數據\n尤其是112年畢業的這一梯幾乎只有四分之一畢業跟留台坦白說我覺得恐怕稱不上是一個成功的計畫甚至會被認為是一個失敗的計畫在這個狀況之下我其實不想多做苛責也許它前面有一個事半的意義在但恐怕它這個不會是單一的原因\n尤其是當你的留台率跟畢業率幾乎都不到四分之一我相信這恐怕不是單一原因恐怕是很多原因甚至在計畫一開始設計之初就有一些事情沒弄對不過我跟委員報告我們現在有在追蹤了就是說從106年開始的就2017年開始之後這些近來讀書的學生從三年的高職畢業端去接科技大學現在穩定度就高很多了\n就是他們不是在高職就離開我想先問委員長說在這個數據之下我們有沒有做相關的比較完整的調查就是他們的調查到底原因各自沒有辦法畢業沒有辦法留台最主要的原因或前三個對他們來講最有影響的原因是我們有沒有這個相關的有有有我們都有跟學校端說為什麼這個學生讀了一年兩年他就離開那這個調查可不可以也許這禮拜可以送到我們辦公室一份我們會把這個資料彙整原因的\n委員你看一下如果他真的有畢業以後他的留台率其實是很接近的\n因為這個僑生的業務占僑委會這麼大的比例\n韓國瑜議員\n主席\n2019的遠見的雜誌裡面看到一個報導這報導裡面講到其實這個隨著政府擴大僑身專班的招生那背後開始傳出有人力仲介的運作的影子\n甚至我們看到國內部分私立學校因為他的招生人數不足所以他到海外去的時候需要當地懂這個語言的幫忙所以傳出每一位學生要支付一萬元的台幣給這個仲介的業者那是由這個學校跟僑生各付一半那可能也不只有這個人力仲介的部分我們也看到下一張\n有部分的檢舉說僑委會領選而出來的這些保健單位來審核僑生資格的保健單位他已簽合每位學生100到200美元大概3000塊到6000塊台幣的行情來收所謂的咖啡錢委員長對於這些訊息你的看法是什麼\n我們其實都有跟學校特別提醒就是說我們絕對禁絕有仲介介入那對於這個保健單位一旦被我們查到一個個案我們就會取消他的保健資格\n所以這一方面呢我們在領選保健單位的時候都要跟他們講得很清楚他們也要簽下切結書跟保證書所以我們如果在後端一旦有人來跟我們檢舉有這樣的個案的時候我們就跟他解約\n委員長第一個我前面先講人力仲介的部分人力仲介的部分因為那是2019的新聞那如果你們有改善那也讓我們知道你們具體提出改善的做法是什麼怎麼杜絕這種不當的或非法的人力仲介他要拿出做法可能不是只是口頭警告而已那實際上面具體的做法是什麼\n我們要多管齊下因為我們有去研究說為什麼這些仲介可以做出這些行為最主要的原因有兩項第一項就是說因為大部分的僑生跟家長或者外籍生他們由於語言的程度上面不足\n無法了解我們這些方案真身的核心內容那這些仲介就有機會在這裡操作把不實的訊息給他們所以確實有喬森來台灣以後為什麼離職跟這個有一點關係就是說他以為他是來台灣工作的但事實上我們明明是讓他來讀書加上產學合作的實習那因為他資訊的錯誤他就會說我期待落差所以給我讀一年就離開他說我不是來工作嗎你怎麼叫我再需要讀\n所以如果從剛剛那個新聞裡面可以看到的事情是假設我們按照那假設這新聞講的是真的是私校到海外招生生生地部手需要語言的幫忙照理來說這個需要語言的服務對或者是語言人才的供給這是政府可以協助的地方對所以因為私校要招生這件事情不是只是私校自己的問題是這也是一個國家的教育政策的問題正確\n所以今天從政府的角度我們應該提供這些私校你要去海外招生的時候你的語言協助我們怎麼協助你你不用自己人生地不熟去找那邊的這個能夠提供你語言的服務變成他可以在這裡面操弄或中介這些資訊嘛所以這是照理來說這應該是僑友會或者我們教育部其實應該跟他們討論說你們如果需要去海外招生的人才\n需要語言人才的話政府可以協助你嘛包括你在各地的僑社或者是相關這些駐點的單位可以協助的部分所以我們現在主動表達多管齊下我們多管齊下的做法有幾個以下第一個就是我們把所有的資訊呢做多語化的處理今天送到越南的一定有越南文跟華語並列還有英文至少有這樣子那到菲律賓我們也是英文華語到了印尼印尼文英文華語\n我看到這個咖啡錢的部分我自己會有一個擔心\n擔心的點是什麼呢假如每一個審核他可以收錢的話其實如果從這些單位來說他可能覺得那我收越多越好甚至我找到一些不適合來台灣的我都可以收錢對不對\n這其實會有一些道德風險喔沒有錯所以會不會也是因為其實變成是他們其實包括舉薦的一些其實不一定很適合的所以也變成你最後留台跟畢業率會降低因為他如果協助找了不適合的人來他可能覺得說我要來收前面的這筆咖啡錢\n那你變成他不適合來到台灣以後你這個後面的畢業率跟留台率當然不會高嘛這前後之間其實可能會是有邏輯上面的關係的所以我覺得這部分要請僑委會非常非常重視注意說這件事是絕對不能發生因為這會有道德風險甚至會連動到你們事後畢業率留台率這些相關的績效也都會影響的事情啊\n是 洪委員你這個提醒我非常同意因為2019年之前確實有好幾個案例所以這幾年我們都很非常緊密的在監視這些事情然後包括我們對保健單位只能說他們只能收最多20塊錢的美金是做什麼呢因為他們要幫他們郵寄資料有一些郵資費用\n那或者他們要幫他們申請表格有一些印刷費用除此之外他們不可以收其他任何的費用所以我們的保健單位我自己都親自run了一圈跟他們做說明會的時候就特別強調這些事情那絕大多數保健單位我必須說他們是真的是熱心在幫忙我們而且他們自己都很有錢\n委員長我覺得是他今天在幫忙這個業務上面合理的成本我們該給他的就應該給他讓他變成是合法的而不是變成私下的非法的所以讓他的合法的支出能夠有能夠他獲得的方式我覺得這是合理的事情所以我們也會跟學生說你們最多就付20塊每天的公本費而已那他如果說需要什麼業務上面的協助的經費如果需要的話我覺得我們用預算的編列來提供給他這是合法的我都贊成\n但是如果他變成說他自己的成本他覺得無法cover他變成要去收這些非法的咖啡錢的話還有另外一方就是我們對國內學校也是加強做這樣子的要求說要簽卸結書你今天要參加這個方案我一定要敬絕仲介所以如果你被我抓到那麼你下一個年度再申請的時候你可能就\n這個委員長我跟你說不管是剛才說的人力仲介或這部分這樣子的佣金我們會特別關注那我們希望合法的收入可以讓這些協助我們單位他其實該付給他的就付給他該得到就得到這沒有問題\n但是非法的我覺得我們一定要嚴厲的打擊有些貸辦費我們可以了解是說對這個是合理的根本甚至的我說他的支出裡面他真的有些必要支出我都贊成我們有些編列預算編列經費來協助他們去cover這些事情這是合理的合法的我覺得沒有問題但不要落入一個非法的抽擁的狀況不能商業機制不要變成非法非法抽擁這後面到的風險太大了會讓你整套的機制的設計可能都會歪掉這樣子好謝謝謝謝洪委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.960 --> 00:02.121\n呃僑務委員長僑務委員長侯委員你好\n\n00:10.066 --> 00:33.518\n委員長好從這幾年我們看了一下僑委會的預算裡面大家蠻清楚可以看到僑生的業務其實如果扣除一般的行政費用的話其實佔的整體優惠我目前看到的數字是佔了一半以上是的那所以這代表其實僑生來台的政策其實是我們非常非常重要的政策方案尤其是對僑委會裡面來說委員長同意嗎我同意好\n\n00:38.360 --> 01:04.698\n所以委員長我們一直很看著這個書面的報告其實這個報告裡面也提到讓海外僑生來臺接受教育能促成他們更認識臺灣那甚至把好的人才留下來甚至回到僑居地以後那大概發展出更多的這些效果組織來把臺灣的這個自由民主的價值這大概也是我們俄國外交上面很重要的努力但這個委員長要看一下\n\n01:06.179 --> 01:13.181\n監察院去年在12月的時候發布的一個調查報告裡面看到其實僑委會從103年開始擴大辦理的這個計畫103是2014年這個產學攜手合作僑生專班那這個畢業率跟留台率都相當偏低\n\n01:27.406 --> 01:55.379\n那在目前這完成3加7年的喬森總共是110年但他們大概在110年到112年3年的狀況裡面陸續畢業但從這表格裡面可以看到其實畢業率跟留台率都不到五成甚至離五成是有很大一段距離而且我最擔心的事情是看起來這數字是逐年遞減而且遞減的幅度非常大這個委員長這個部分喬森會有提出原因嗎\n\n01:56.555 --> 02:07.521\n有,我來了以後有認真的去看這些東西那監察院的這個報告我也很認真的去看了它是等於去年出來的報告是在更前一年的那事實上這個計畫從產息合作的專班是2014年就是103年開始當時是有事辦性質\n\n02:15.786 --> 02:30.027\n所以人數並不是很多然後辦了三年就是開始這三年有畢業生出現了我們有觀察到就是說他們其實最容易離開的就是在高值端的時代\n\n02:30.888 --> 02:56.883\n所以如果第一年第二年他們不穩定的時候離開你招生進來再多也沒有用所以我們現在是強化在這個高職端因為那時候可能學生的年紀也偏輕然後學校學生的輔導上面就需要給他們更多的援助所以我們現在有兩個措施在加強第一個措施呢通常適應不良的原因是第一個他華語能力還不太夠\n\n02:57.823 --> 03:03.064\n所以怎麼強化他在來台灣以前他的華語程度就可以補充增進那這樣的話他的溝通能力跟他的適應力就會強化這是第一個第二個呢是我們也要求學校就是說對於學生的這個生活照顧跟輔導上面不要讓學生覺得說很孤單沒有求助的這種狀況那還有一部分是就在最源頭學生就帶著錯誤的資訊進來了\n\n03:27.290 --> 03:30.620\n這部分我確實不可諱言跟委員講委員長我看了一下這個數據\n\n03:34.316 --> 03:56.357\n尤其是112年畢業的這一梯幾乎只有四分之一畢業跟留台坦白說我覺得恐怕稱不上是一個成功的計畫甚至會被認為是一個失敗的計畫在這個狀況之下我其實不想多做苛責也許它前面有一個事半的意義在但恐怕它這個不會是單一的原因\n\n03:57.017 --> 04:14.000\n尤其是當你的留台率跟畢業率幾乎都不到四分之一我相信這恐怕不是單一原因恐怕是很多原因甚至在計畫一開始設計之初就有一些事情沒弄對不過我跟委員報告我們現在有在追蹤了就是說從106年開始的就2017年開始之後這些近來讀書的學生從三年的高職畢業端去接科技大學現在穩定度就高很多了\n\n04:25.402 --> 04:53.192\n就是他們不是在高職就離開我想先問委員長說在這個數據之下我們有沒有做相關的比較完整的調查就是他們的調查到底原因各自沒有辦法畢業沒有辦法留台最主要的原因或前三個對他們來講最有影響的原因是我們有沒有這個相關的有有有我們都有跟學校端說為什麼這個學生讀了一年兩年他就離開那這個調查可不可以也許這禮拜可以送到我們辦公室一份我們會把這個資料彙整原因的\n\n04:54.372 --> 04:56.653\n委員你看一下如果他真的有畢業以後他的留台率其實是很接近的\n\n05:21.227 --> 05:22.048\n因為這個僑生的業務占僑委會這麼大的比例\n\n05:48.704 --> 05:48.724\n韓國瑜議員\n\n06:05.430 --> 06:05.650\n主席\n\n06:22.946 --> 06:37.325\n2019的遠見的雜誌裡面看到一個報導這報導裡面講到其實這個隨著政府擴大僑身專班的招生那背後開始傳出有人力仲介的運作的影子\n\n06:37.985 --> 07:03.063\n甚至我們看到國內部分私立學校因為他的招生人數不足所以他到海外去的時候需要當地懂這個語言的幫忙所以傳出每一位學生要支付一萬元的台幣給這個仲介的業者那是由這個學校跟僑生各付一半那可能也不只有這個人力仲介的部分我們也看到下一張\n\n07:04.990 --> 07:25.712\n有部分的檢舉說僑委會領選而出來的這些保健單位來審核僑生資格的保健單位他已簽合每位學生100到200美元大概3000塊到6000塊台幣的行情來收所謂的咖啡錢委員長對於這些訊息你的看法是什麼\n\n07:27.971 --> 07:44.101\n我們其實都有跟學校特別提醒就是說我們絕對禁絕有仲介介入那對於這個保健單位一旦被我們查到一個個案我們就會取消他的保健資格\n\n07:45.021 --> 07:55.827\n所以這一方面呢我們在領選保健單位的時候都要跟他們講得很清楚他們也要簽下切結書跟保證書所以我們如果在後端一旦有人來跟我們檢舉有這樣的個案的時候我們就跟他解約\n\n07:58.700 --> 08:22.828\n委員長第一個我前面先講人力仲介的部分人力仲介的部分因為那是2019的新聞那如果你們有改善那也讓我們知道你們具體提出改善的做法是什麼怎麼杜絕這種不當的或非法的人力仲介他要拿出做法可能不是只是口頭警告而已那實際上面具體的做法是什麼\n\n08:23.228 --> 08:41.981\n我們要多管齊下因為我們有去研究說為什麼這些仲介可以做出這些行為最主要的原因有兩項第一項就是說因為大部分的僑生跟家長或者外籍生他們由於語言的程度上面不足\n\n08:42.762 --> 08:55.851\n無法了解我們這些方案真身的核心內容那這些仲介就有機會在這裡操作把不實的訊息給他們所以確實有喬森來台灣以後為什麼離職跟這個有一點關係就是說他以為他是來台灣工作的但事實上我們明明是讓他來讀書加上產學合作的實習那因為他資訊的錯誤他就會說我期待落差所以給我讀一年就離開他說我不是來工作嗎你怎麼叫我再需要讀\n\n09:10.762 --> 09:32.368\n所以如果從剛剛那個新聞裡面可以看到的事情是假設我們按照那假設這新聞講的是真的是私校到海外招生生生地部手需要語言的幫忙照理來說這個需要語言的服務對或者是語言人才的供給這是政府可以協助的地方對所以因為私校要招生這件事情不是只是私校自己的問題是這也是一個國家的教育政策的問題正確\n\n09:33.248 --> 09:55.496\n所以今天從政府的角度我們應該提供這些私校你要去海外招生的時候你的語言協助我們怎麼協助你你不用自己人生地不熟去找那邊的這個能夠提供你語言的服務變成他可以在這裡面操弄或中介這些資訊嘛所以這是照理來說這應該是僑友會或者我們教育部其實應該跟他們討論說你們如果需要去海外招生的人才\n\n09:56.076 --> 10:03.999\n需要語言人才的話政府可以協助你嘛包括你在各地的僑社或者是相關這些駐點的單位可以協助的部分所以我們現在主動表達多管齊下我們多管齊下的做法有幾個以下第一個就是我們把所有的資訊呢做多語化的處理今天送到越南的一定有越南文跟華語並列還有英文至少有這樣子那到菲律賓我們也是英文華語到了印尼印尼文英文華語\n\n10:25.247 --> 10:26.748\n我看到這個咖啡錢的部分我自己會有一個擔心\n\n10:50.024 --> 11:02.839\n擔心的點是什麼呢假如每一個審核他可以收錢的話其實如果從這些單位來說他可能覺得那我收越多越好甚至我找到一些不適合來台灣的我都可以收錢對不對\n\n11:04.670 --> 11:21.468\n這其實會有一些道德風險喔沒有錯所以會不會也是因為其實變成是他們其實包括舉薦的一些其實不一定很適合的所以也變成你最後留台跟畢業率會降低因為他如果協助找了不適合的人來他可能覺得說我要來收前面的這筆咖啡錢\n\n11:22.429 --> 11:45.539\n那你變成他不適合來到台灣以後你這個後面的畢業率跟留台率當然不會高嘛這前後之間其實可能會是有邏輯上面的關係的所以我覺得這部分要請僑委會非常非常重視注意說這件事是絕對不能發生因為這會有道德風險甚至會連動到你們事後畢業率留台率這些相關的績效也都會影響的事情啊\n\n11:45.799 --> 12:02.125\n是洪委員你這個提醒我非常同意因為2019年之前確實有好幾個案例所以這幾年我們都很非常緊密的在監視這些事情然後包括我們對保健單位只能說他們只能收最多20塊錢的美金是做什麼呢因為他們要幫他們郵寄資料有一些郵資費用\n\n12:08.907 --> 12:28.820\n那或者他們要幫他們申請表格有一些印刷費用除此之外他們不可以收其他任何的費用所以我們的保健單位我自己都親自run了一圈跟他們做說明會的時候就特別強調這些事情那絕大多數保健單位我必須說他們是真的是熱心在幫忙我們而且他們自己都很有錢\n\n12:29.420 --> 12:55.947\n委員長我覺得是他今天在幫忙這個業務上面合理的成本我們該給他的就應該給他讓他變成是合法的而不是變成私下的非法的所以讓他的合法的支出能夠有能夠他獲得的方式我覺得這是合理的事情所以我們也會跟學生說你們最多就付20塊每天的公本費而已那他如果說需要什麼業務上面的協助的經費如果需要的話我覺得我們用預算的編列來提供給他這是合法的我都贊成\n\n12:56.867 --> 13:16.805\n但是如果他變成說他自己的成本他覺得無法cover他變成要去收這些非法的咖啡錢的話還有另外一方就是我們對國內學校也是加強做這樣子的要求說要簽卸結書你今天要參加這個方案我一定要敬絕仲介所以如果你被我抓到那麼你下一個年度再申請的時候你可能就\n\n13:18.447 --> 13:31.241\n這個委員長我跟你說不管是剛才說的人力仲介或這部分這樣子的佣金我們會特別關注那我們希望合法的收入可以讓這些協助我們單位他其實該付給他的就付給他該得到就得到這沒有問題\n\n13:32.102 --> 13:39.828\n但是非法的我覺得我們一定要嚴厲的打擊有些貸辦費我們可以了解是說對這個是合理的根本甚至的我說他的支出裡面他真的有些必要支出我都贊成我們有些編列預算編列經費來協助他們去cover這些事情這是合理的合法的我覺得沒有問題但不要落入一個非法的抽擁的狀況不能商業機制不要變成非法非法抽擁這後面到的風險太大了會讓你整套的機制的設計可能都會歪掉這樣子好謝謝謝謝洪委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.96,"end":2.121,"text":"呃僑務委員長僑務委員長侯委員你好"},{"start":10.066,"end":33.518,"text":"委員長好從這幾年我們看了一下僑委會的預算裡面大家蠻清楚可以看到僑生的業務其實如果扣除一般的行政費用的話其實佔的整體優惠我目前看到的數字是佔了一半以上是的那所以這代表其實僑生來台的政策其實是我們非常非常重要的政策方案尤其是對僑委會裡面來說委員長同意嗎我同意好"},{"start":38.36,"end":64.698,"text":"所以委員長我們一直很看著這個書面的報告其實這個報告裡面也提到讓海外僑生來臺接受教育能促成他們更認識臺灣那甚至把好的人才留下來甚至回到僑居地以後那大概發展出更多的這些效果組織來把臺灣的這個自由民主的價值這大概也是我們俄國外交上面很重要的努力但這個委員長要看一下"},{"start":66.179,"end":73.181,"text":"監察院去年在12月的時候發布的一個調查報告裡面看到其實僑委會從103年開始擴大辦理的這個計畫103是2014年這個產學攜手合作僑生專班那這個畢業率跟留台率都相當偏低"},{"start":87.406,"end":115.379,"text":"那在目前這完成3加7年的喬森總共是110年但他們大概在110年到112年3年的狀況裡面陸續畢業但從這表格裡面可以看到其實畢業率跟留台率都不到五成甚至離五成是有很大一段距離而且我最擔心的事情是看起來這數字是逐年遞減而且遞減的幅度非常大這個委員長這個部分喬森會有提出原因嗎"},{"start":116.555,"end":127.521,"text":"有,我來了以後有認真的去看這些東西那監察院的這個報告我也很認真的去看了它是等於去年出來的報告是在更前一年的那事實上這個計畫從產息合作的專班是2014年就是103年開始當時是有事辦性質"},{"start":135.786,"end":150.027,"text":"所以人數並不是很多然後辦了三年就是開始這三年有畢業生出現了我們有觀察到就是說他們其實最容易離開的就是在高值端的時代"},{"start":150.888,"end":176.883,"text":"所以如果第一年第二年他們不穩定的時候離開你招生進來再多也沒有用所以我們現在是強化在這個高職端因為那時候可能學生的年紀也偏輕然後學校學生的輔導上面就需要給他們更多的援助所以我們現在有兩個措施在加強第一個措施呢通常適應不良的原因是第一個他華語能力還不太夠"},{"start":177.823,"end":183.064,"text":"所以怎麼強化他在來台灣以前他的華語程度就可以補充增進那這樣的話他的溝通能力跟他的適應力就會強化這是第一個第二個呢是我們也要求學校就是說對於學生的這個生活照顧跟輔導上面不要讓學生覺得說很孤單沒有求助的這種狀況那還有一部分是就在最源頭學生就帶著錯誤的資訊進來了"},{"start":207.29,"end":210.62,"text":"這部分我確實不可諱言跟委員講委員長我看了一下這個數據"},{"start":214.316,"end":236.357,"text":"尤其是112年畢業的這一梯幾乎只有四分之一畢業跟留台坦白說我覺得恐怕稱不上是一個成功的計畫甚至會被認為是一個失敗的計畫在這個狀況之下我其實不想多做苛責也許它前面有一個事半的意義在但恐怕它這個不會是單一的原因"},{"start":237.017,"end":254,"text":"尤其是當你的留台率跟畢業率幾乎都不到四分之一我相信這恐怕不是單一原因恐怕是很多原因甚至在計畫一開始設計之初就有一些事情沒弄對不過我跟委員報告我們現在有在追蹤了就是說從106年開始的就2017年開始之後這些近來讀書的學生從三年的高職畢業端去接科技大學現在穩定度就高很多了"},{"start":265.402,"end":293.192,"text":"就是他們不是在高職就離開我想先問委員長說在這個數據之下我們有沒有做相關的比較完整的調查就是他們的調查到底原因各自沒有辦法畢業沒有辦法留台最主要的原因或前三個對他們來講最有影響的原因是我們有沒有這個相關的有有有我們都有跟學校端說為什麼這個學生讀了一年兩年他就離開那這個調查可不可以也許這禮拜可以送到我們辦公室一份我們會把這個資料彙整原因的"},{"start":294.372,"end":296.653,"text":"委員你看一下如果他真的有畢業以後他的留台率其實是很接近的"},{"start":321.227,"end":322.048,"text":"因為這個僑生的業務占僑委會這麼大的比例"},{"start":348.704,"end":348.724,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":365.43,"end":365.65,"text":"主席"},{"start":382.946,"end":397.325,"text":"2019的遠見的雜誌裡面看到一個報導這報導裡面講到其實這個隨著政府擴大僑身專班的招生那背後開始傳出有人力仲介的運作的影子"},{"start":397.985,"end":423.063,"text":"甚至我們看到國內部分私立學校因為他的招生人數不足所以他到海外去的時候需要當地懂這個語言的幫忙所以傳出每一位學生要支付一萬元的台幣給這個仲介的業者那是由這個學校跟僑生各付一半那可能也不只有這個人力仲介的部分我們也看到下一張"},{"start":424.99,"end":445.712,"text":"有部分的檢舉說僑委會領選而出來的這些保健單位來審核僑生資格的保健單位他已簽合每位學生100到200美元大概3000塊到6000塊台幣的行情來收所謂的咖啡錢委員長對於這些訊息你的看法是什麼"},{"start":447.971,"end":464.101,"text":"我們其實都有跟學校特別提醒就是說我們絕對禁絕有仲介介入那對於這個保健單位一旦被我們查到一個個案我們就會取消他的保健資格"},{"start":465.021,"end":475.827,"text":"所以這一方面呢我們在領選保健單位的時候都要跟他們講得很清楚他們也要簽下切結書跟保證書所以我們如果在後端一旦有人來跟我們檢舉有這樣的個案的時候我們就跟他解約"},{"start":478.7,"end":502.828,"text":"委員長第一個我前面先講人力仲介的部分人力仲介的部分因為那是2019的新聞那如果你們有改善那也讓我們知道你們具體提出改善的做法是什麼怎麼杜絕這種不當的或非法的人力仲介他要拿出做法可能不是只是口頭警告而已那實際上面具體的做法是什麼"},{"start":503.228,"end":521.981,"text":"我們要多管齊下因為我們有去研究說為什麼這些仲介可以做出這些行為最主要的原因有兩項第一項就是說因為大部分的僑生跟家長或者外籍生他們由於語言的程度上面不足"},{"start":522.762,"end":535.851,"text":"無法了解我們這些方案真身的核心內容那這些仲介就有機會在這裡操作把不實的訊息給他們所以確實有喬森來台灣以後為什麼離職跟這個有一點關係就是說他以為他是來台灣工作的但事實上我們明明是讓他來讀書加上產學合作的實習那因為他資訊的錯誤他就會說我期待落差所以給我讀一年就離開他說我不是來工作嗎你怎麼叫我再需要讀"},{"start":550.762,"end":572.368,"text":"所以如果從剛剛那個新聞裡面可以看到的事情是假設我們按照那假設這新聞講的是真的是私校到海外招生生生地部手需要語言的幫忙照理來說這個需要語言的服務對或者是語言人才的供給這是政府可以協助的地方對所以因為私校要招生這件事情不是只是私校自己的問題是這也是一個國家的教育政策的問題正確"},{"start":573.248,"end":595.496,"text":"所以今天從政府的角度我們應該提供這些私校你要去海外招生的時候你的語言協助我們怎麼協助你你不用自己人生地不熟去找那邊的這個能夠提供你語言的服務變成他可以在這裡面操弄或中介這些資訊嘛所以這是照理來說這應該是僑友會或者我們教育部其實應該跟他們討論說你們如果需要去海外招生的人才"},{"start":596.076,"end":603.999,"text":"需要語言人才的話政府可以協助你嘛包括你在各地的僑社或者是相關這些駐點的單位可以協助的部分所以我們現在主動表達多管齊下我們多管齊下的做法有幾個以下第一個就是我們把所有的資訊呢做多語化的處理今天送到越南的一定有越南文跟華語並列還有英文至少有這樣子那到菲律賓我們也是英文華語到了印尼印尼文英文華語"},{"start":625.247,"end":626.748,"text":"我看到這個咖啡錢的部分我自己會有一個擔心"},{"start":650.024,"end":662.839,"text":"擔心的點是什麼呢假如每一個審核他可以收錢的話其實如果從這些單位來說他可能覺得那我收越多越好甚至我找到一些不適合來台灣的我都可以收錢對不對"},{"start":664.67,"end":681.468,"text":"這其實會有一些道德風險喔沒有錯所以會不會也是因為其實變成是他們其實包括舉薦的一些其實不一定很適合的所以也變成你最後留台跟畢業率會降低因為他如果協助找了不適合的人來他可能覺得說我要來收前面的這筆咖啡錢"},{"start":682.429,"end":705.539,"text":"那你變成他不適合來到台灣以後你這個後面的畢業率跟留台率當然不會高嘛這前後之間其實可能會是有邏輯上面的關係的所以我覺得這部分要請僑委會非常非常重視注意說這件事是絕對不能發生因為這會有道德風險甚至會連動到你們事後畢業率留台率這些相關的績效也都會影響的事情啊"},{"start":705.799,"end":722.125,"text":"是 洪委員你這個提醒我非常同意因為2019年之前確實有好幾個案例所以這幾年我們都很非常緊密的在監視這些事情然後包括我們對保健單位只能說他們只能收最多20塊錢的美金是做什麼呢因為他們要幫他們郵寄資料有一些郵資費用"},{"start":728.907,"end":748.82,"text":"那或者他們要幫他們申請表格有一些印刷費用除此之外他們不可以收其他任何的費用所以我們的保健單位我自己都親自run了一圈跟他們做說明會的時候就特別強調這些事情那絕大多數保健單位我必須說他們是真的是熱心在幫忙我們而且他們自己都很有錢"},{"start":749.42,"end":775.947,"text":"委員長我覺得是他今天在幫忙這個業務上面合理的成本我們該給他的就應該給他讓他變成是合法的而不是變成私下的非法的所以讓他的合法的支出能夠有能夠他獲得的方式我覺得這是合理的事情所以我們也會跟學生說你們最多就付20塊每天的公本費而已那他如果說需要什麼業務上面的協助的經費如果需要的話我覺得我們用預算的編列來提供給他這是合法的我都贊成"},{"start":776.867,"end":796.805,"text":"但是如果他變成說他自己的成本他覺得無法cover他變成要去收這些非法的咖啡錢的話還有另外一方就是我們對國內學校也是加強做這樣子的要求說要簽卸結書你今天要參加這個方案我一定要敬絕仲介所以如果你被我抓到那麼你下一個年度再申請的時候你可能就"},{"start":798.447,"end":811.241,"text":"這個委員長我跟你說不管是剛才說的人力仲介或這部分這樣子的佣金我們會特別關注那我們希望合法的收入可以讓這些協助我們單位他其實該付給他的就付給他該得到就得到這沒有問題"},{"start":812.102,"end":819.828,"text":"但是非法的我覺得我們一定要嚴厲的打擊有些貸辦費我們可以了解是說對這個是合理的根本甚至的我說他的支出裡面他真的有些必要支出我都贊成我們有些編列預算編列經費來協助他們去cover這些事情這是合理的合法的我覺得沒有問題但不要落入一個非法的抽擁的狀況不能商業機制不要變成非法非法抽擁這後面到的風險太大了會讓你整套的機制的設計可能都會歪掉這樣子好謝謝謝謝洪委員"}]}}}}