{"id":151431,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b445abe709ecfb2a2cb4f81d0e85270258c9c5dab72e655c1c94eef6df7d42f6b4155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:31:35 - 11:42:54","影片長度":"00:11:19","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n四、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-14"},"date":"2024-04-18","duration":679,"end_time":"2024-04-18T11:42:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-18T11:31:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":343,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時31分）謝謝主席，也謝謝我們好同事林思銘林委員。有請立法院周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長好。有幾個關於議事的部分來就教，你也算是大家尊重的「老先覺」。"],["周秘書長萬來：哪裡。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是我問你，你要回答我，你不要像上次那樣叫我自己看，我跟你說完之後，網路上說我好像流氓，說我在羞辱你，這樣怎麼對？"],["周秘書長萬來：抱歉、抱歉。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我那天有羞辱你嗎？沒有吧！"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有、沒有。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！我也是學法律的，我也當律師，被人家說成流氓，聽了「kimoji」實在很差，你知道嗎？但是我要來就教秘書長，在立法院整個議事規則裡面，你認為有沒有什麼叫異議權？"],["周秘書長萬來：你講的異議權，大概是保留院會發言的時候，比如說在委員會裡面，他對於審查結果有意見的話，有異議就保留院會發言，法條裡面大概有這個規範在那個地方。"],["莊委員瑞雄：其實在立法院職權行使法第六十八條第三項裡面，它有講各委員會在審查議案，也不用院會啦！遇到有爭議的時候，主席就可以裁決來進行協商，這其實也是廣泛地在講異議權，說得通，對不對？我也不要讓你太為難，禮拜一本委員會在審查立法院職權行使法的時候，你也在現場，秘書長你可不可以認同，當時是不是屬於各委員會審查議案碰到爭議？那天的情形是不是叫做遇到爭議？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個我未便發言，因為委員會的審查由委員會直接處理，我大概是院會的幕僚啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，我不要害你被國民黨訐譙。吵到那種程度了，當然就是爭議，但是爭議的時候怎麼樣去解決，其實我們議事規範裡面都講得非常清楚啦！譬如說那個時候主席裁決所有的議案都保留送朝野協商，我要來請教你的是，在我們立法院職權行使法所做的裁決的這種協商，主席裁決送協商是送出委員會去協商，還是在委員會裡面來協商？"],["周秘書長萬來：應該要這樣說，剛才莊委員所提的第六十八條第三項，你看在第三項裡面有另外一個規定，就是在委員會中啦！"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：那另外一個狀況，當時在設計的時候，在第4屆第6會期當時交下來我研究設計的時候，因為我本身當時的考量是委員會中心，院會的黨團協商是輔助性的，那是一個接軌，所以要協商的話，一開始一定是委員會的召集委員去召集協商。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然，謝謝。這就是有專業的人，所以我也不要挖坑給你跳。大家都很清楚嘛！協商當然就是在委員會，主席比如說鍾佳濱委員在主持的時候，大家有意見，當然就是要協商啊！"],["周秘書長萬來：我要補充，不是，協商是兩種，一個是在委員會開會當中的協商，那是委員會的主席……"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["周秘書長萬來：如果這個案已經審查完竣，送到院會的時候需要協商，那個時候是委員會的召集委員去協商。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是嘛！所以我們委員會當場碰到有爭議的時候，本來就可以這樣來做協商。那你認為當天的主席這樣處理好不好？"],["周秘書長萬來：我未便表示意見。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你不好意思講，我跟你說，以你的個性，如果應該誇獎你早就誇獎了，你不便表示意見，我也不要為難你，免得等一下害你又被國民黨訐譙。但是很怪的就是說，司法及法制委員會我覺得最不應該，在立法院不要創下這種惡例，我今天要特別提醒，我一早就跑3個委員會，我們有提案，我們一定要做提案說明給人家聽，說我們為什麼要提案嘛！提案說明完之後，我們在做逐條審查的時候，法令到底是什麼，大家來表達意見嘛！你贊成或是反對，說不定我贊成的人聽到你反對的理由，覺得你也有道理，看要怎麼加進來，怎麼來做修正。所以法案如果在委員會裡面，我們一直在強調委員會中心主義，如果審到最後連提案說明也不讓人說明，逐條也全部不要，碰到有爭議也不在委員會裡面做協商，這個是非常不合理的。","我來套一個最近很紅的電影，我希望以後逐條審查在表達意見的時候，我不用先在家裡擲筊，向關聖帝君擲9個聖筊，擲筊之後說我今天可以來做逐條討論；秘書長可能比較沒有在看這個，這個現在在網路上很紅。我要請教秘書長，像我們碰到這種狀況，過去民進黨在審查，我相信政黨之間會產生最大爭議的一個法案就是不當黨產條例，你去看當時審查的照片，右邊第一個是江啟臣，再來是李彥秀、陳超明、王育敏，甚至於前時代力量的委員黃國昌，大家也都是在討論，討論到後來沒有共識以後，才去動用表決哦！但要不要協商，在表決之後，輸贏大家要甘願，照議事程序來嘛！社會自有公斷，但是在禮拜一的時候，大家都沒有機會講，這個就非常非常可惜了。","接下來要請教，我也請法務部陳次長上來一下，借重你們兩位「老先覺」。這個國會調查權，今天在野黨的委員一直在提說民進黨2016年有，是啊！有啊！連我都跟顧立雄共同提案，我也贊成要有國會調查權，這確實是輔助立法委員行使職權，監督行政部門一個很好的工具嘛！行政部門本來就要接受立法院的監督，但是當初真的就是沒有共識，所以只通過了一些國會改革的法案，比如說直播，現在看起來覺得那已經是很簡單的事情了，但是為什麼說國會要改革？是我們要被改革，我們要去改進啊！如果說又碰到爭議的話，我也認為很麻煩，像現在這麼多法案裡面，我從秘書長的書面報告裡面也看到了，幾乎每一個事項你都講由立法院自己來做決定就好，就只有4個字「國會自主」嘛！但是國會自主它的射程到底有多遠？範圍到哪裡？強制手段要到什麼地步？甚至於這個客體到底是只有行政部門，還是包括老百姓？這個當然就要討論啊！秘書長，難道不是這樣嗎？這種事情哪有不用討論的，你認為這不用討論嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為你們要合議。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊！就是說大家要合議，什麼叫合議？就是要討論嘛！沒有討論，哪來的合議呢？我必須要指出來的是，我一直非常擔心，2016年的法案當初就是因為沒有共識，也被國民黨批評為擴權，那現在國民黨好像撿到寶貝一樣，過去民進黨有這樣的主張，就全部都寫進去，這個叫進步哦？我沒有意見！但是我再次提醒，為什麼請次長上來？像翁曉玲委員她留學德國，她算是一個法學素養非常豐厚的委員，但是我為什麼要在這邊提醒？你看當年德國在發動國會調查權的時候，德國在阿富汗駐軍一、二十萬，當年從阿富汗撤軍的時候，國會發動調查權要去調查第一個，當年撤軍的程序到底有沒有完備，有沒有保護到他們的阿兵哥？第二個，調查他們的阿兵哥在撤退的時候，到底有沒有去搶阿富汗那些百姓，有沒有碰那些女人？德國他們國會發動調查權，可是他們國會調查權就跟我們現在的憲法法庭解釋一樣，它很重要地揭示出什麼？就是跟你講說要發動調查權，國會發動調查權幾乎都是基於政爭，以政治的鬥爭為目的，可是如果涉及人民的話，你必須要有公益性，你如果沒有公益性，想調查就調查，到時候你說虛偽陳述就判3年，立法院沒有這麼大的權限啦！","憲法第二十三條在講比例原則，你們兩個都是大「仙」的，對不對？我們創設一個藐視國會，就變成是創設憲法第二十三條的一個例外的規定，我擔心的是這個啊！從德國留學回來的人，你說要不要救濟？當然要有救濟，甚至於要不要仿效德國他們所規定的國會調查權裡面，連證人、人民被你找到國會裡面來，他都會有像我們刑事訴訟法裡面規定的拒絕證言權哦！哪些需不需要、有需要沒需要？如果今天我是法官，我審一個案子，你們要傳喚證人的話，我會跟你說次長，你傳那個證人沒有必要，我就裁定把你駁回掉，可是現在立法院連這些相關的配套都沒有，這是我很擔心的地方。強制的手段到底會不會過高？甚至於那個客體到底要不要加到人民？請次長簡單回應一下。"],["主席：次長請簡單回應，因為時間的關係。"],["陳次長明堂：基本上，縱然是立法，委員也要注意到「比例原則」這4個字啦！在比例原則下，相關的作為也應該注意到正當程序前端的保障，才能做後端的強制，這個要配套。所以剛才秘書長有提到合議，合議大家要說好，對於比例原則、合乎正當程序、後面的強制是不是過當等等的情況，要來做深切的思考。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，你認為德國憲法法庭他們揭示出來的，他們發動國會調查權要具備公益性才可以，你贊不贊同？"],["周秘書長萬來：我想委員會去考量，相關的一些原則在討論的過程委員當然會考量。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，謝謝秘書長，謝謝次長。","接下來有請林委員思銘詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":532,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-14","speakers":["鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","謝衣鳯","羅智強","莊瑞雄","沈發惠","陳俊宇","吳宗憲","沈伯洋","翁曉玲","黃國昌","謝龍介"],"page_start":479,"meetingDate":["2024-04-18"],"gazette_id":"1133101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133101_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案；二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬\n具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案；三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職\n權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案；四、委員鄭天財 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這個就當然要討論啦你覺得是不是這樣 這麼多都不用討論的你去問這個不用討論嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 431.645, \"end\": 432.005, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"項\"}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 432.005, \"end\": 432.065, \"score\": 0.784}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 432.065, \"end\": 433.125, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 433.125, \"end\": 433.766, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 433.766, \"end\": 434.706, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 434.706, \"end\": 434.826, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 434.826, \"end\": 434.966, \"score\": 0.868}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 434.966, \"end\": 435.126, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"自\", \"start\": 435.126, \"end\": 435.206, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 435.206, \"end\": 435.446, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 435.446, \"end\": 435.746, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 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00:00:32,054\n委員長好,有幾個關於議事的部分來就教,你也算大家自己尊重的老選角,但是我問你要不要幫我引,你沒酒店,叫我自己看。\n\n3\n00:00:33,696 --> 00:00:42,681\n我跟您說過之後,人家就跟我說我怎麼落馬,說我跟您羞辱太多,我覺得有羞辱嗎?沒有沒有。是啊,我也有發論的,我也做律師王說落馬,聽到那些人的心情很開心。但是我要來救救秘書長就是說,就是說我們立法院裡面,整個議事規則裡面,你認為有沒有什麼叫意義權?\n\n4\n00:01:02,768 --> 00:01:30,785\n在議議前裏面大概保留院會發言的時候大概譬如說委員會裏面他對於這個審查結果有意見的話他就保留有意義就保留院會發言大概法條裏面大概有這個規範在哪個地方其實在我們立法院的職權行使法第68條第三項裏面他有去講各委員會在審查議案也不用院會啦有爭議的時候主席就可以裁決來進行協商啦\n\n5\n00:01:31,525 --> 00:01:50,704\n這其實也是在廣泛、也是在講意義權啦!會通嘛!對不對!你要看啦!我們拜他啦!我也不要讓你太為難啦!我們拜委員會來在審查立法院職權行使法的時候啊!你也在現場啦!那民主黨你可不可以認同當時是不是屬於各個委員會審查議案碰到那天這樣是不是叫作剛才的爭議?\n\n6\n00:01:53,322 --> 00:02:01,188\n因此我未變壞,因為委員會有審查,有委員會的直接處理,因為我大概是院會的幕僚啦。好啦,我不要害你,國民黨都在幹架啦。吵到那種程度了,當然就是爭議啦。當然就是爭議啦。但是爭議的時候,怎麼樣去解決啊?其實啊,我們議事規範裡面都講得非常清楚啦。你像比如說啊,\n\n7\n00:02:17,341 --> 00:02:33,877\n那十三個主席裁決所有的議案都保留送草也協商。我要來請教你了就是說在我們立法院職權行使法所做的裁決的這種協商是主席是裁決送協商還是上次委員會協商還是說協商是在委員會裡面來協商\n\n8\n00:02:39,098 --> 00:02:59,436\n應該要這樣說啦,因為這一個剛才專委所提的六十八條第三項你看在第三項裡面有另外的規定在委員會中啦那另外一個狀況當時在設計的時候在第四屆第六會期在當時交下來我研究設計的時候因為我本身有當時考量是\n\n9\n00:03:00,177 --> 00:03:23,337\n委員會中心,院會的黨團協商是輔助性的,是一個接軌,所以要協商的話,應該先開始一定是委員會的召集委員,去召集協商。所以這叫做有專業的人,所以我不要為困擾你跳,所以大家都很清楚嘛。那協商當然就是在委員會主席,譬如說宗嘉濱委員,那其他這邊在主持的時候,大家有意見嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:24,618 --> 00:03:49,105\n當然就是要協商啊。要我補充,協商有兩種。一個在委員會開會當中的協商,那是委員會的主席。那當然。那如果這個案已經審查完畢,送到委員會的時候需要協商,那個時候還是委員會的招集委員會是協商。是嘛。所以我們委員會當場裡面碰到有爭議的時候,本來就可以這個這個這樣來做協商。那你認為當天的主席這樣處理好不好?\n\n11\n00:03:50,050 --> 00:03:52,171\n我今天特別去提醒就是說我一早我就跑三個委員會\n\n12\n00:04:15,407 --> 00:04:18,054\n我們有提案,我們一定要提案說明,讓人聽嘛,說我們為什麼要提案嘛。\n\n13\n00:04:20,547 --> 00:04:45,458\n提案稍後,你再看,你如果說我們對法院在做諸條審查的時候法令到底是什麼,大家來表達意見嘛你贊成還是反對,不然你告訴我贊成的人聽聽你反對,覺得你的也有道理,看要怎麼加進來,還要怎麼做修正所以法案如果在委員會裡面,我們一直在強調委員會中心主義但如果審到最後,就是連提案說明\n\n14\n00:04:46,798 --> 00:05:03,048\n不容說明,主條兩種賣,碰到有爭議也不在委員會裡面做協商。這個是非常不合理的。最近,我來套一個最近很紅的一個電影,我希望議長在主條在審查的時候,表達意見的時候,我不用想大廚擲筊啦,跟官聖帝君擲架的時候擲筊,擲筊說我今天可以來做主條討論,你可能比較沒在看這個啦,但是現在網路上很紅。\n\n15\n00:05:15,896 --> 00:05:35,126\n所以我要請教秘書長就是說像我們碰到這種狀況碰到這樣的一個狀況在審查過去民進黨在審查我相信最大的爭議的最大的一個政黨之間會產生最大爭議的一個法案就是不當擔任條例你去看那時候在審的時候蔣其成、李彥秀、陳超明\n\n16\n00:05:42,170 --> 00:06:06,642\n王玉敏甚至於前時代力量的委員黃國昌。大家也是都討論啊,討論到最後你都沒有共識以後啊,那你才去動用表決,但要不要協商。包括了之後輸贏,這就大家感恩啦,叫議數定數來嘛,社會自有公斷啦。但是在禮拜一的時候啊,大家都沒有機會講,這個就非常非常可惜了。\n\n17\n00:06:07,142 --> 00:06:30,185\n那另外接下來要請教的就是說我也請我們法務部陳次長可以上來一下就中你們倆的老先覺這個國會調查權我相信今天在黨的委員一直在提說民進黨2016年有是啊有啊連我都跟顧立雄共同提案我也贊成要國會調查權\n\n18\n00:06:32,783 --> 00:06:48,235\n這確實是一個輔助立法委員行使職權監督行政部門的一個很好的一個工具嘛行政部門本來要接受立法院的一個監督但是呢當初就是真的就沒有共識所以只通過了一些國會改革的一個法案像比如說直播\n\n19\n00:06:48,895 --> 00:06:50,436\n二、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n\n20\n00:07:11,645 --> 00:07:35,832\n事項你都講這都是立法院自己來做決定就好就只有四個事嘛國會自主嘛但是這個國會自主它的射程到底會有多遠範圍到哪裡強制手段要到什麼地步甚至於這個課題到底是只有行政部門還包括老百姓這個就當然要討論啦你覺得是不是這樣這麼多都不用討論的你去問這個不用討論嗎\n\n21\n00:07:39,233 --> 00:07:43,895\n因為你們要合議啊是啊就是說大家要合議什麼叫合議就是要討論嘛沒有討論哪來的合議呢我必須要指出來了就是說我一直非常擔心啦2016年的法案當初就是因為沒有共識也被國民黨批評為這個叫擴權那現在國民黨好像撿到法撿到寶貝一樣嘿過去你民進黨有這樣主定嗎全部都把他嚇死了\n\n22\n00:08:05,582 --> 00:08:20,384\n這個叫進步我沒有意見但是我再次提醒為什麼請次長上來就是說翁小玲翁委員他留學德國他算是一個法學素養非常豐厚的一個委員但是我為什麼要在這邊提醒呢\n\n23\n00:08:21,185 --> 00:08:27,330\n當年你看那個德國在發動國會調查權的時候德國他在阿富汗駐軍一又十萬當年在從阿富汗撤軍的時候國會發動調查權要去調查說當年在撤軍這個程序到底有沒有完備有沒有保護到他們的阿兵哥第二個就是說在調查他們的阿兵哥在撤退的時候到底有去跟人家搶搶到阿富汗那裡的被子有去把女兒被打到嗎\n\n24\n00:08:49,366 --> 00:08:58,910\n德國他們國會發動調查權可是他們國會調查權就跟我們現在的憲法法庭解釋一樣他很重要揭示出一個什麼就是跟你講說要發動調查權\n\n25\n00:09:03,901 --> 00:09:12,753\n國內發動調查委員幾乎都是基於政治的鬥爭為目的,可是呢,如果涉及到人民的話,你必須要有公義性。你若沒有公義性,三個要調查的就調查,到時你說虛偽的陳述就三當。\n\n26\n00:09:22,216 --> 00:09:29,059\n立法院沒有這麼大的權限啊。憲法23條在講比例原則嘛,你倆都大聲的嘛,對不對。我們在創設一個藐視國會,就變成創設憲法23條的一個例外的一個規定。我擔心的是這個啊。\n\n27\n00:09:38,359 --> 00:09:57,918\n於帝國回來、立法回來的人,你說要不要救濟?當然要有救濟!甚至於要不要仿效德國他們所規定的國會調查權裡面,連證人、連人民被你調查到、傳喚到、找到國會裡面來,他都有像我們刑訴訴訟法裡面的規定的拒絕證言權喔!\n\n28\n00:09:59,620 --> 00:10:25,510\n哪些需不需要?有需要沒需要?我如果今天是法官,一個案子我審,你們要傳喚證人的話,我會跟你說:「欸,次長,你傳那個證人沒有必要,我就裁定把你剝掉。」現在立法院連這些相關的配套都沒有,這是我很擔心的地方。強制的手段到底會不會過高?甚至於說你那個課題到底要不要加到人民?簡單請那個次長回應一下。\n\n29\n00:10:28,351 --> 00:10:50,792\n市長請簡單回應因為時間關係基本上呢重點是立法也要注意到比例原則這四個字啦齁那在比例原則下的話呢相關的作為也應該注意到正當程序前端的保障才能做後端的強制這樣的要配套所以剛才民進黨也提到說合意嘛合意大家要講得好就講那在比例原則合乎正當程序在後面強制的時候是不是過檔\n\n30\n00:10:51,753 --> 00:11:16,005\n等等這些來做深切示範。那秘書長你認為那個人家德國憲法法庭他們揭示出來的他們要發動國會調整要具備公益性才可以,你認不認同?國會委員會去考量啦,這個相關的一些原則大概都委員會在討論的過程大概會考量。好謝謝,謝謝莊委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝次長。接下來有請林委員。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3105\t12154\t謝謝主席也謝謝我們好同事我們林士明林委員有請我們立法院我們周秘書長請周秘書長\n18857\t32054\t委員長好,有幾個關於議事的部分來就教,你也算大家自己尊重的老選角,但是我問你要不要幫我引,你沒酒店,叫我自己看。\n33696\t42681\t我跟您說過之後,人家就跟我說我怎麼落馬,說我跟您羞辱太多,我覺得有羞辱嗎?沒有沒有。是啊,我也有發論的,我也做律師王說落馬,聽到那些人的心情很開心。但是我要來救救秘書長就是說,就是說我們立法院裡面,整個議事規則裡面,你認為有沒有什麼叫意義權?\n62768\t90785\t在議議前裏面大概保留院會發言的時候大概譬如說委員會裏面他對於這個審查結果有意見的話他就保留有意義就保留院會發言大概法條裏面大概有這個規範在哪個地方其實在我們立法院的職權行使法第68條第三項裏面他有去講各委員會在審查議案也不用院會啦有爭議的時候主席就可以裁決來進行協商啦\n91525\t110704\t這其實也是在廣泛、也是在講意義權啦!會通嘛!對不對!你要看啦!我們拜他啦!我也不要讓你太為難啦!我們拜委員會來在審查立法院職權行使法的時候啊!你也在現場啦!那民主黨你可不可以認同當時是不是屬於各個委員會審查議案碰到那天這樣是不是叫作剛才的爭議?\n113322\t121188\t因此我未變壞,因為委員會有審查,有委員會的直接處理,因為我大概是院會的幕僚啦。好啦,我不要害你,國民黨都在幹架啦。吵到那種程度了,當然就是爭議啦。當然就是爭議啦。但是爭議的時候,怎麼樣去解決啊?其實啊,我們議事規範裡面都講得非常清楚啦。你像比如說啊,\n137341\t153877\t那十三個主席裁決所有的議案都保留送草也協商。我要來請教你了就是說在我們立法院職權行使法所做的裁決的這種協商是主席是裁決送協商還是上次委員會協商還是說協商是在委員會裡面來協商\n159098\t179436\t應該要這樣說啦,因為這一個剛才專委所提的六十八條第三項你看在第三項裡面有另外的規定在委員會中啦那另外一個狀況當時在設計的時候在第四屆第六會期在當時交下來我研究設計的時候因為我本身有當時考量是\n180177\t203337\t委員會中心,院會的黨團協商是輔助性的,是一個接軌,所以要協商的話,應該先開始一定是委員會的召集委員,去召集協商。所以這叫做有專業的人,所以我不要為困擾你跳,所以大家都很清楚嘛。那協商當然就是在委員會主席,譬如說宗嘉濱委員,那其他這邊在主持的時候,大家有意見嗎?\n204618\t229105\t當然就是要協商啊。要我補充,協商有兩種。一個在委員會開會當中的協商,那是委員會的主席。那當然。那如果這個案已經審查完畢,送到委員會的時候需要協商,那個時候還是委員會的招集委員會是協商。是嘛。所以我們委員會當場裡面碰到有爭議的時候,本來就可以這個這個這樣來做協商。那你認為當天的主席這樣處理好不好?\n230050\t232171\t我今天特別去提醒就是說我一早我就跑三個委員會\n255407\t258054\t我們有提案,我們一定要提案說明,讓人聽嘛,說我們為什麼要提案嘛。\n260547\t285458\t提案稍後,你再看,你如果說我們對法院在做諸條審查的時候法令到底是什麼,大家來表達意見嘛你贊成還是反對,不然你告訴我贊成的人聽聽你反對,覺得你的也有道理,看要怎麼加進來,還要怎麼做修正所以法案如果在委員會裡面,我們一直在強調委員會中心主義但如果審到最後,就是連提案說明\n286798\t303048\t不容說明,主條兩種賣,碰到有爭議也不在委員會裡面做協商。這個是非常不合理的。最近,我來套一個最近很紅的一個電影,我希望議長在主條在審查的時候,表達意見的時候,我不用想大廚擲筊啦,跟官聖帝君擲架的時候擲筊,擲筊說我今天可以來做主條討論,你可能比較沒在看這個啦,但是現在網路上很紅。\n315896\t335126\t所以我要請教秘書長就是說像我們碰到這種狀況碰到這樣的一個狀況在審查過去民進黨在審查我相信最大的爭議的最大的一個政黨之間會產生最大爭議的一個法案就是不當擔任條例你去看那時候在審的時候蔣其成、李彥秀、陳超明\n342170\t366642\t王玉敏甚至於前時代力量的委員黃國昌。大家也是都討論啊,討論到最後你都沒有共識以後啊,那你才去動用表決,但要不要協商。包括了之後輸贏,這就大家感恩啦,叫議數定數來嘛,社會自有公斷啦。但是在禮拜一的時候啊,大家都沒有機會講,這個就非常非常可惜了。\n367142\t390185\t那另外接下來要請教的就是說我也請我們法務部陳次長可以上來一下就中你們倆的老先覺這個國會調查權我相信今天在黨的委員一直在提說民進黨2016年有是啊有啊連我都跟顧立雄共同提案我也贊成要國會調查權\n392783\t408235\t這確實是一個輔助立法委員行使職權監督行政部門的一個很好的一個工具嘛行政部門本來要接受立法院的一個監督但是呢當初就是真的就沒有共識所以只通過了一些國會改革的一個法案像比如說直播\n408895\t410436\t二、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n431645\t455832\t事項你都講 這都是立法院自己來做決定就好就只有四個事嘛 國會自主嘛但是這個國會自主 它的射程到底會有多遠範圍到哪裡 強制手段要到什麼地步甚至於這個課題 到底是只有行政部門還包括老百姓 這個就當然要討論啦你覺得是不是這樣 這麼多都不用討論的你去問這個不用討論嗎\n459233\t463895\t因為你們要合議啊是啊就是說大家要合議什麼叫合議就是要討論嘛沒有討論哪來的合議呢我必須要指出來了就是說我一直非常擔心啦2016年的法案當初就是因為沒有共識也被國民黨批評為這個叫擴權那現在國民黨好像撿到法撿到寶貝一樣嘿過去你民進黨有這樣主定嗎全部都把他嚇死了\n485582\t500384\t這個叫進步我沒有意見但是我再次提醒為什麼請次長上來就是說翁小玲翁委員他留學德國他算是一個法學素養非常豐厚的一個委員但是我為什麼要在這邊提醒呢\n501185\t507330\t當年你看那個德國在發動國會調查權的時候德國他在阿富汗駐軍一又十萬當年在從阿富汗撤軍的時候國會發動調查權要去調查說當年在撤軍這個程序到底有沒有完備有沒有保護到他們的阿兵哥第二個就是說在調查他們的阿兵哥在撤退的時候到底有去跟人家搶搶到阿富汗那裡的被子有去把女兒被打到嗎\n529366\t538910\t德國他們國會發動調查權可是他們國會調查權就跟我們現在的憲法法庭解釋一樣他很重要揭示出一個什麼就是跟你講說要發動調查權\n543901\t552753\t國內發動調查委員幾乎都是基於政治的鬥爭為目的,可是呢,如果涉及到人民的話,你必須要有公義性。你若沒有公義性,三個要調查的就調查,到時你說虛偽的陳述就三當。\n562216\t569059\t立法院沒有這麼大的權限啊。憲法23條在講比例原則嘛,你倆都大聲的嘛,對不對。我們在創設一個藐視國會,就變成創設憲法23條的一個例外的一個規定。我擔心的是這個啊。\n578359\t597918\t於帝國回來、立法回來的人,你說要不要救濟?當然要有救濟!甚至於要不要仿效德國他們所規定的國會調查權裡面,連證人、連人民被你調查到、傳喚到、找到國會裡面來,他都有像我們刑訴訴訟法裡面的規定的拒絕證言權喔!\n599620\t625510\t哪些需不需要?有需要沒需要?我如果今天是法官,一個案子我審,你們要傳喚證人的話,我會跟你說:「欸,次長,你傳那個證人沒有必要,我就裁定把你剝掉。」現在立法院連這些相關的配套都沒有,這是我很擔心的地方。強制的手段到底會不會過高?甚至於說你那個課題到底要不要加到人民?簡單請那個次長回應一下。\n628351\t650792\t市長請簡單回應因為時間關係基本上呢重點是立法也要注意到比例原則這四個字啦齁那在比例原則下的話呢相關的作為也應該注意到正當程序前端的保障才能做後端的強制這樣的要配套所以剛才民進黨也提到說合意嘛合意大家要講得好就講那在比例原則合乎正當程序在後面強制的時候是不是過檔\n651753\t676005\t等等這些來做深切示範。那秘書長你認為那個人家德國憲法法庭他們揭示出來的他們要發動國會調整要具備公益性才可以,你認不認同?國會委員會去考量啦,這個相關的一些原則大概都委員會在討論的過程大概會考量。好謝謝,謝謝莊委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝次長。接下來有請林委員。\n","txt":"謝謝主席也謝謝我們好同事我們林士明林委員有請我們立法院我們周秘書長請周秘書長\n委員長好,有幾個關於議事的部分來就教,你也算大家自己尊重的老選角,但是我問你要不要幫我引,你沒酒店,叫我自己看。\n我跟您說過之後,人家就跟我說我怎麼落馬,說我跟您羞辱太多,我覺得有羞辱嗎?沒有沒有。是啊,我也有發論的,我也做律師王說落馬,聽到那些人的心情很開心。但是我要來救救秘書長就是說,就是說我們立法院裡面,整個議事規則裡面,你認為有沒有什麼叫意義權?\n在議議前裏面大概保留院會發言的時候大概譬如說委員會裏面他對於這個審查結果有意見的話他就保留有意義就保留院會發言大概法條裏面大概有這個規範在哪個地方其實在我們立法院的職權行使法第68條第三項裏面他有去講各委員會在審查議案也不用院會啦有爭議的時候主席就可以裁決來進行協商啦\n這其實也是在廣泛、也是在講意義權啦!會通嘛!對不對!你要看啦!我們拜他啦!我也不要讓你太為難啦!我們拜委員會來在審查立法院職權行使法的時候啊!你也在現場啦!那民主黨你可不可以認同當時是不是屬於各個委員會審查議案碰到那天這樣是不是叫作剛才的爭議?\n因此我未變壞,因為委員會有審查,有委員會的直接處理,因為我大概是院會的幕僚啦。好啦,我不要害你,國民黨都在幹架啦。吵到那種程度了,當然就是爭議啦。當然就是爭議啦。但是爭議的時候,怎麼樣去解決啊?其實啊,我們議事規範裡面都講得非常清楚啦。你像比如說啊,\n那十三個主席裁決所有的議案都保留送草也協商。我要來請教你了就是說在我們立法院職權行使法所做的裁決的這種協商是主席是裁決送協商還是上次委員會協商還是說協商是在委員會裡面來協商\n應該要這樣說啦,因為這一個剛才專委所提的六十八條第三項你看在第三項裡面有另外的規定在委員會中啦那另外一個狀況當時在設計的時候在第四屆第六會期在當時交下來我研究設計的時候因為我本身有當時考量是\n委員會中心,院會的黨團協商是輔助性的,是一個接軌,所以要協商的話,應該先開始一定是委員會的召集委員,去召集協商。所以這叫做有專業的人,所以我不要為困擾你跳,所以大家都很清楚嘛。那協商當然就是在委員會主席,譬如說宗嘉濱委員,那其他這邊在主持的時候,大家有意見嗎?\n當然就是要協商啊。要我補充,協商有兩種。一個在委員會開會當中的協商,那是委員會的主席。那當然。那如果這個案已經審查完畢,送到委員會的時候需要協商,那個時候還是委員會的招集委員會是協商。是嘛。所以我們委員會當場裡面碰到有爭議的時候,本來就可以這個這個這樣來做協商。那你認為當天的主席這樣處理好不好?\n我今天特別去提醒就是說我一早我就跑三個委員會\n我們有提案,我們一定要提案說明,讓人聽嘛,說我們為什麼要提案嘛。\n提案稍後,你再看,你如果說我們對法院在做諸條審查的時候法令到底是什麼,大家來表達意見嘛你贊成還是反對,不然你告訴我贊成的人聽聽你反對,覺得你的也有道理,看要怎麼加進來,還要怎麼做修正所以法案如果在委員會裡面,我們一直在強調委員會中心主義但如果審到最後,就是連提案說明\n不容說明,主條兩種賣,碰到有爭議也不在委員會裡面做協商。這個是非常不合理的。最近,我來套一個最近很紅的一個電影,我希望議長在主條在審查的時候,表達意見的時候,我不用想大廚擲筊啦,跟官聖帝君擲架的時候擲筊,擲筊說我今天可以來做主條討論,你可能比較沒在看這個啦,但是現在網路上很紅。\n所以我要請教秘書長就是說像我們碰到這種狀況碰到這樣的一個狀況在審查過去民進黨在審查我相信最大的爭議的最大的一個政黨之間會產生最大爭議的一個法案就是不當擔任條例你去看那時候在審的時候蔣其成、李彥秀、陳超明\n王玉敏甚至於前時代力量的委員黃國昌。大家也是都討論啊,討論到最後你都沒有共識以後啊,那你才去動用表決,但要不要協商。包括了之後輸贏,這就大家感恩啦,叫議數定數來嘛,社會自有公斷啦。但是在禮拜一的時候啊,大家都沒有機會講,這個就非常非常可惜了。\n那另外接下來要請教的就是說我也請我們法務部陳次長可以上來一下就中你們倆的老先覺這個國會調查權我相信今天在黨的委員一直在提說民進黨2016年有是啊有啊連我都跟顧立雄共同提案我也贊成要國會調查權\n這確實是一個輔助立法委員行使職權監督行政部門的一個很好的一個工具嘛行政部門本來要接受立法院的一個監督但是呢當初就是真的就沒有共識所以只通過了一些國會改革的一個法案像比如說直播\n二、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n事項你都講 這都是立法院自己來做決定就好就只有四個事嘛 國會自主嘛但是這個國會自主 它的射程到底會有多遠範圍到哪裡 強制手段要到什麼地步甚至於這個課題 到底是只有行政部門還包括老百姓 這個就當然要討論啦你覺得是不是這樣 這麼多都不用討論的你去問這個不用討論嗎\n因為你們要合議啊是啊就是說大家要合議什麼叫合議就是要討論嘛沒有討論哪來的合議呢我必須要指出來了就是說我一直非常擔心啦2016年的法案當初就是因為沒有共識也被國民黨批評為這個叫擴權那現在國民黨好像撿到法撿到寶貝一樣嘿過去你民進黨有這樣主定嗎全部都把他嚇死了\n這個叫進步我沒有意見但是我再次提醒為什麼請次長上來就是說翁小玲翁委員他留學德國他算是一個法學素養非常豐厚的一個委員但是我為什麼要在這邊提醒呢\n當年你看那個德國在發動國會調查權的時候德國他在阿富汗駐軍一又十萬當年在從阿富汗撤軍的時候國會發動調查權要去調查說當年在撤軍這個程序到底有沒有完備有沒有保護到他們的阿兵哥第二個就是說在調查他們的阿兵哥在撤退的時候到底有去跟人家搶搶到阿富汗那裡的被子有去把女兒被打到嗎\n德國他們國會發動調查權可是他們國會調查權就跟我們現在的憲法法庭解釋一樣他很重要揭示出一個什麼就是跟你講說要發動調查權\n國內發動調查委員幾乎都是基於政治的鬥爭為目的,可是呢,如果涉及到人民的話,你必須要有公義性。你若沒有公義性,三個要調查的就調查,到時你說虛偽的陳述就三當。\n立法院沒有這麼大的權限啊。憲法23條在講比例原則嘛,你倆都大聲的嘛,對不對。我們在創設一個藐視國會,就變成創設憲法23條的一個例外的一個規定。我擔心的是這個啊。\n於帝國回來、立法回來的人,你說要不要救濟?當然要有救濟!甚至於要不要仿效德國他們所規定的國會調查權裡面,連證人、連人民被你調查到、傳喚到、找到國會裡面來,他都有像我們刑訴訴訟法裡面的規定的拒絕證言權喔!\n哪些需不需要?有需要沒需要?我如果今天是法官,一個案子我審,你們要傳喚證人的話,我會跟你說:「欸,次長,你傳那個證人沒有必要,我就裁定把你剝掉。」現在立法院連這些相關的配套都沒有,這是我很擔心的地方。強制的手段到底會不會過高?甚至於說你那個課題到底要不要加到人民?簡單請那個次長回應一下。\n市長請簡單回應因為時間關係基本上呢重點是立法也要注意到比例原則這四個字啦齁那在比例原則下的話呢相關的作為也應該注意到正當程序前端的保障才能做後端的強制這樣的要配套所以剛才民進黨也提到說合意嘛合意大家要講得好就講那在比例原則合乎正當程序在後面強制的時候是不是過檔\n等等這些來做深切示範。那秘書長你認為那個人家德國憲法法庭他們揭示出來的他們要發動國會調整要具備公益性才可以,你認不認同?國會委員會去考量啦,這個相關的一些原則大概都委員會在討論的過程大概會考量。好謝謝,謝謝莊委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝次長。接下來有請林委員。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.105 --> 00:12.154\n謝謝主席也謝謝我們好同事我們林士明林委員有請我們立法院我們周秘書長請周秘書長\n\n00:18.857 --> 00:32.054\n委員長好,有幾個關於議事的部分來就教,你也算大家自己尊重的老選角,但是我問你要不要幫我引,你沒酒店,叫我自己看。\n\n00:33.696 --> 00:42.681\n我跟您說過之後,人家就跟我說我怎麼落馬,說我跟您羞辱太多,我覺得有羞辱嗎?沒有沒有。是啊,我也有發論的,我也做律師王說落馬,聽到那些人的心情很開心。但是我要來救救秘書長就是說,就是說我們立法院裡面,整個議事規則裡面,你認為有沒有什麼叫意義權?\n\n01:02.768 --> 01:30.785\n在議議前裏面大概保留院會發言的時候大概譬如說委員會裏面他對於這個審查結果有意見的話他就保留有意義就保留院會發言大概法條裏面大概有這個規範在哪個地方其實在我們立法院的職權行使法第68條第三項裏面他有去講各委員會在審查議案也不用院會啦有爭議的時候主席就可以裁決來進行協商啦\n\n01:31.525 --> 01:50.704\n這其實也是在廣泛、也是在講意義權啦!會通嘛!對不對!你要看啦!我們拜他啦!我也不要讓你太為難啦!我們拜委員會來在審查立法院職權行使法的時候啊!你也在現場啦!那民主黨你可不可以認同當時是不是屬於各個委員會審查議案碰到那天這樣是不是叫作剛才的爭議?\n\n01:53.322 --> 02:01.188\n因此我未變壞,因為委員會有審查,有委員會的直接處理,因為我大概是院會的幕僚啦。好啦,我不要害你,國民黨都在幹架啦。吵到那種程度了,當然就是爭議啦。當然就是爭議啦。但是爭議的時候,怎麼樣去解決啊?其實啊,我們議事規範裡面都講得非常清楚啦。你像比如說啊,\n\n02:17.341 --> 02:33.877\n那十三個主席裁決所有的議案都保留送草也協商。我要來請教你了就是說在我們立法院職權行使法所做的裁決的這種協商是主席是裁決送協商還是上次委員會協商還是說協商是在委員會裡面來協商\n\n02:39.098 --> 02:59.436\n應該要這樣說啦,因為這一個剛才專委所提的六十八條第三項你看在第三項裡面有另外的規定在委員會中啦那另外一個狀況當時在設計的時候在第四屆第六會期在當時交下來我研究設計的時候因為我本身有當時考量是\n\n03:00.177 --> 03:23.337\n委員會中心,院會的黨團協商是輔助性的,是一個接軌,所以要協商的話,應該先開始一定是委員會的召集委員,去召集協商。所以這叫做有專業的人,所以我不要為困擾你跳,所以大家都很清楚嘛。那協商當然就是在委員會主席,譬如說宗嘉濱委員,那其他這邊在主持的時候,大家有意見嗎?\n\n03:24.618 --> 03:49.105\n當然就是要協商啊。要我補充,協商有兩種。一個在委員會開會當中的協商,那是委員會的主席。那當然。那如果這個案已經審查完畢,送到委員會的時候需要協商,那個時候還是委員會的招集委員會是協商。是嘛。所以我們委員會當場裡面碰到有爭議的時候,本來就可以這個這個這樣來做協商。那你認為當天的主席這樣處理好不好?\n\n03:50.050 --> 03:52.171\n我今天特別去提醒就是說我一早我就跑三個委員會\n\n04:15.407 --> 04:18.054\n我們有提案,我們一定要提案說明,讓人聽嘛,說我們為什麼要提案嘛。\n\n04:20.547 --> 04:45.458\n提案稍後,你再看,你如果說我們對法院在做諸條審查的時候法令到底是什麼,大家來表達意見嘛你贊成還是反對,不然你告訴我贊成的人聽聽你反對,覺得你的也有道理,看要怎麼加進來,還要怎麼做修正所以法案如果在委員會裡面,我們一直在強調委員會中心主義但如果審到最後,就是連提案說明\n\n04:46.798 --> 05:03.048\n不容說明,主條兩種賣,碰到有爭議也不在委員會裡面做協商。這個是非常不合理的。最近,我來套一個最近很紅的一個電影,我希望議長在主條在審查的時候,表達意見的時候,我不用想大廚擲筊啦,跟官聖帝君擲架的時候擲筊,擲筊說我今天可以來做主條討論,你可能比較沒在看這個啦,但是現在網路上很紅。\n\n05:15.896 --> 05:35.126\n所以我要請教秘書長就是說像我們碰到這種狀況碰到這樣的一個狀況在審查過去民進黨在審查我相信最大的爭議的最大的一個政黨之間會產生最大爭議的一個法案就是不當擔任條例你去看那時候在審的時候蔣其成、李彥秀、陳超明\n\n05:42.170 --> 06:06.642\n王玉敏甚至於前時代力量的委員黃國昌。大家也是都討論啊,討論到最後你都沒有共識以後啊,那你才去動用表決,但要不要協商。包括了之後輸贏,這就大家感恩啦,叫議數定數來嘛,社會自有公斷啦。但是在禮拜一的時候啊,大家都沒有機會講,這個就非常非常可惜了。\n\n06:07.142 --> 06:30.185\n那另外接下來要請教的就是說我也請我們法務部陳次長可以上來一下就中你們倆的老先覺這個國會調查權我相信今天在黨的委員一直在提說民進黨2016年有是啊有啊連我都跟顧立雄共同提案我也贊成要國會調查權\n\n06:32.783 --> 06:48.235\n這確實是一個輔助立法委員行使職權監督行政部門的一個很好的一個工具嘛行政部門本來要接受立法院的一個監督但是呢當初就是真的就沒有共識所以只通過了一些國會改革的一個法案像比如說直播\n\n06:48.895 --> 06:50.436\n二、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n\n07:11.645 --> 07:35.832\n事項你都講這都是立法院自己來做決定就好就只有四個事嘛國會自主嘛但是這個國會自主它的射程到底會有多遠範圍到哪裡強制手段要到什麼地步甚至於這個課題到底是只有行政部門還包括老百姓這個就當然要討論啦你覺得是不是這樣這麼多都不用討論的你去問這個不用討論嗎\n\n07:39.233 --> 07:43.895\n因為你們要合議啊是啊就是說大家要合議什麼叫合議就是要討論嘛沒有討論哪來的合議呢我必須要指出來了就是說我一直非常擔心啦2016年的法案當初就是因為沒有共識也被國民黨批評為這個叫擴權那現在國民黨好像撿到法撿到寶貝一樣嘿過去你民進黨有這樣主定嗎全部都把他嚇死了\n\n08:05.582 --> 08:20.384\n這個叫進步我沒有意見但是我再次提醒為什麼請次長上來就是說翁小玲翁委員他留學德國他算是一個法學素養非常豐厚的一個委員但是我為什麼要在這邊提醒呢\n\n08:21.185 --> 08:27.330\n當年你看那個德國在發動國會調查權的時候德國他在阿富汗駐軍一又十萬當年在從阿富汗撤軍的時候國會發動調查權要去調查說當年在撤軍這個程序到底有沒有完備有沒有保護到他們的阿兵哥第二個就是說在調查他們的阿兵哥在撤退的時候到底有去跟人家搶搶到阿富汗那裡的被子有去把女兒被打到嗎\n\n08:49.366 --> 08:58.910\n德國他們國會發動調查權可是他們國會調查權就跟我們現在的憲法法庭解釋一樣他很重要揭示出一個什麼就是跟你講說要發動調查權\n\n09:03.901 --> 09:12.753\n國內發動調查委員幾乎都是基於政治的鬥爭為目的,可是呢,如果涉及到人民的話,你必須要有公義性。你若沒有公義性,三個要調查的就調查,到時你說虛偽的陳述就三當。\n\n09:22.216 --> 09:29.059\n立法院沒有這麼大的權限啊。憲法23條在講比例原則嘛,你倆都大聲的嘛,對不對。我們在創設一個藐視國會,就變成創設憲法23條的一個例外的一個規定。我擔心的是這個啊。\n\n09:38.359 --> 09:57.918\n於帝國回來、立法回來的人,你說要不要救濟?當然要有救濟!甚至於要不要仿效德國他們所規定的國會調查權裡面,連證人、連人民被你調查到、傳喚到、找到國會裡面來,他都有像我們刑訴訴訟法裡面的規定的拒絕證言權喔!\n\n09:59.620 --> 10:25.510\n哪些需不需要?有需要沒需要?我如果今天是法官,一個案子我審,你們要傳喚證人的話,我會跟你說:「欸,次長,你傳那個證人沒有必要,我就裁定把你剝掉。」現在立法院連這些相關的配套都沒有,這是我很擔心的地方。強制的手段到底會不會過高?甚至於說你那個課題到底要不要加到人民?簡單請那個次長回應一下。\n\n10:28.351 --> 10:50.792\n市長請簡單回應因為時間關係基本上呢重點是立法也要注意到比例原則這四個字啦齁那在比例原則下的話呢相關的作為也應該注意到正當程序前端的保障才能做後端的強制這樣的要配套所以剛才民進黨也提到說合意嘛合意大家要講得好就講那在比例原則合乎正當程序在後面強制的時候是不是過檔\n\n10:51.753 --> 11:16.005\n等等這些來做深切示範。那秘書長你認為那個人家德國憲法法庭他們揭示出來的他們要發動國會調整要具備公益性才可以,你認不認同?國會委員會去考量啦,這個相關的一些原則大概都委員會在討論的過程大概會考量。好謝謝,謝謝莊委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝次長。接下來有請林委員。\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.105,"end":12.154,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝我們好同事我們林士明林委員有請我們立法院我們周秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":18.857,"end":32.054,"text":"委員長好,有幾個關於議事的部分來就教,你也算大家自己尊重的老選角,但是我問你要不要幫我引,你沒酒店,叫我自己看。"},{"start":33.696,"end":42.681,"text":"我跟您說過之後,人家就跟我說我怎麼落馬,說我跟您羞辱太多,我覺得有羞辱嗎?沒有沒有。是啊,我也有發論的,我也做律師王說落馬,聽到那些人的心情很開心。但是我要來救救秘書長就是說,就是說我們立法院裡面,整個議事規則裡面,你認為有沒有什麼叫意義權?"},{"start":62.768,"end":90.785,"text":"在議議前裏面大概保留院會發言的時候大概譬如說委員會裏面他對於這個審查結果有意見的話他就保留有意義就保留院會發言大概法條裏面大概有這個規範在哪個地方其實在我們立法院的職權行使法第68條第三項裏面他有去講各委員會在審查議案也不用院會啦有爭議的時候主席就可以裁決來進行協商啦"},{"start":91.525,"end":110.704,"text":"這其實也是在廣泛、也是在講意義權啦!會通嘛!對不對!你要看啦!我們拜他啦!我也不要讓你太為難啦!我們拜委員會來在審查立法院職權行使法的時候啊!你也在現場啦!那民主黨你可不可以認同當時是不是屬於各個委員會審查議案碰到那天這樣是不是叫作剛才的爭議?"},{"start":113.322,"end":121.188,"text":"因此我未變壞,因為委員會有審查,有委員會的直接處理,因為我大概是院會的幕僚啦。好啦,我不要害你,國民黨都在幹架啦。吵到那種程度了,當然就是爭議啦。當然就是爭議啦。但是爭議的時候,怎麼樣去解決啊?其實啊,我們議事規範裡面都講得非常清楚啦。你像比如說啊,"},{"start":137.341,"end":153.877,"text":"那十三個主席裁決所有的議案都保留送草也協商。我要來請教你了就是說在我們立法院職權行使法所做的裁決的這種協商是主席是裁決送協商還是上次委員會協商還是說協商是在委員會裡面來協商"},{"start":159.098,"end":179.436,"text":"應該要這樣說啦,因為這一個剛才專委所提的六十八條第三項你看在第三項裡面有另外的規定在委員會中啦那另外一個狀況當時在設計的時候在第四屆第六會期在當時交下來我研究設計的時候因為我本身有當時考量是"},{"start":180.177,"end":203.337,"text":"委員會中心,院會的黨團協商是輔助性的,是一個接軌,所以要協商的話,應該先開始一定是委員會的召集委員,去召集協商。所以這叫做有專業的人,所以我不要為困擾你跳,所以大家都很清楚嘛。那協商當然就是在委員會主席,譬如說宗嘉濱委員,那其他這邊在主持的時候,大家有意見嗎?"},{"start":204.618,"end":229.105,"text":"當然就是要協商啊。要我補充,協商有兩種。一個在委員會開會當中的協商,那是委員會的主席。那當然。那如果這個案已經審查完畢,送到委員會的時候需要協商,那個時候還是委員會的招集委員會是協商。是嘛。所以我們委員會當場裡面碰到有爭議的時候,本來就可以這個這個這樣來做協商。那你認為當天的主席這樣處理好不好?"},{"start":230.05,"end":232.171,"text":"我今天特別去提醒就是說我一早我就跑三個委員會"},{"start":255.407,"end":258.054,"text":"我們有提案,我們一定要提案說明,讓人聽嘛,說我們為什麼要提案嘛。"},{"start":260.547,"end":285.458,"text":"提案稍後,你再看,你如果說我們對法院在做諸條審查的時候法令到底是什麼,大家來表達意見嘛你贊成還是反對,不然你告訴我贊成的人聽聽你反對,覺得你的也有道理,看要怎麼加進來,還要怎麼做修正所以法案如果在委員會裡面,我們一直在強調委員會中心主義但如果審到最後,就是連提案說明"},{"start":286.798,"end":303.048,"text":"不容說明,主條兩種賣,碰到有爭議也不在委員會裡面做協商。這個是非常不合理的。最近,我來套一個最近很紅的一個電影,我希望議長在主條在審查的時候,表達意見的時候,我不用想大廚擲筊啦,跟官聖帝君擲架的時候擲筊,擲筊說我今天可以來做主條討論,你可能比較沒在看這個啦,但是現在網路上很紅。"},{"start":315.896,"end":335.126,"text":"所以我要請教秘書長就是說像我們碰到這種狀況碰到這樣的一個狀況在審查過去民進黨在審查我相信最大的爭議的最大的一個政黨之間會產生最大爭議的一個法案就是不當擔任條例你去看那時候在審的時候蔣其成、李彥秀、陳超明"},{"start":342.17,"end":366.642,"text":"王玉敏甚至於前時代力量的委員黃國昌。大家也是都討論啊,討論到最後你都沒有共識以後啊,那你才去動用表決,但要不要協商。包括了之後輸贏,這就大家感恩啦,叫議數定數來嘛,社會自有公斷啦。但是在禮拜一的時候啊,大家都沒有機會講,這個就非常非常可惜了。"},{"start":367.142,"end":390.185,"text":"那另外接下來要請教的就是說我也請我們法務部陳次長可以上來一下就中你們倆的老先覺這個國會調查權我相信今天在黨的委員一直在提說民進黨2016年有是啊有啊連我都跟顧立雄共同提案我也贊成要國會調查權"},{"start":392.783,"end":408.235,"text":"這確實是一個輔助立法委員行使職權監督行政部門的一個很好的一個工具嘛行政部門本來要接受立法院的一個監督但是呢當初就是真的就沒有共識所以只通過了一些國會改革的一個法案像比如說直播"},{"start":408.895,"end":410.436,"text":"二、委員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":431.645,"end":455.832,"text":"事項你都講 這都是立法院自己來做決定就好就只有四個事嘛 國會自主嘛但是這個國會自主 它的射程到底會有多遠範圍到哪裡 強制手段要到什麼地步甚至於這個課題 到底是只有行政部門還包括老百姓 這個就當然要討論啦你覺得是不是這樣 這麼多都不用討論的你去問這個不用討論嗎"},{"start":459.233,"end":463.895,"text":"因為你們要合議啊是啊就是說大家要合議什麼叫合議就是要討論嘛沒有討論哪來的合議呢我必須要指出來了就是說我一直非常擔心啦2016年的法案當初就是因為沒有共識也被國民黨批評為這個叫擴權那現在國民黨好像撿到法撿到寶貝一樣嘿過去你民進黨有這樣主定嗎全部都把他嚇死了"},{"start":485.582,"end":500.384,"text":"這個叫進步我沒有意見但是我再次提醒為什麼請次長上來就是說翁小玲翁委員他留學德國他算是一個法學素養非常豐厚的一個委員但是我為什麼要在這邊提醒呢"},{"start":501.185,"end":507.33,"text":"當年你看那個德國在發動國會調查權的時候德國他在阿富汗駐軍一又十萬當年在從阿富汗撤軍的時候國會發動調查權要去調查說當年在撤軍這個程序到底有沒有完備有沒有保護到他們的阿兵哥第二個就是說在調查他們的阿兵哥在撤退的時候到底有去跟人家搶搶到阿富汗那裡的被子有去把女兒被打到嗎"},{"start":529.366,"end":538.91,"text":"德國他們國會發動調查權可是他們國會調查權就跟我們現在的憲法法庭解釋一樣他很重要揭示出一個什麼就是跟你講說要發動調查權"},{"start":543.901,"end":552.753,"text":"國內發動調查委員幾乎都是基於政治的鬥爭為目的,可是呢,如果涉及到人民的話,你必須要有公義性。你若沒有公義性,三個要調查的就調查,到時你說虛偽的陳述就三當。"},{"start":562.216,"end":569.059,"text":"立法院沒有這麼大的權限啊。憲法23條在講比例原則嘛,你倆都大聲的嘛,對不對。我們在創設一個藐視國會,就變成創設憲法23條的一個例外的一個規定。我擔心的是這個啊。"},{"start":578.359,"end":597.918,"text":"於帝國回來、立法回來的人,你說要不要救濟?當然要有救濟!甚至於要不要仿效德國他們所規定的國會調查權裡面,連證人、連人民被你調查到、傳喚到、找到國會裡面來,他都有像我們刑訴訴訟法裡面的規定的拒絕證言權喔!"},{"start":599.62,"end":625.51,"text":"哪些需不需要?有需要沒需要?我如果今天是法官,一個案子我審,你們要傳喚證人的話,我會跟你說:「欸,次長,你傳那個證人沒有必要,我就裁定把你剝掉。」現在立法院連這些相關的配套都沒有,這是我很擔心的地方。強制的手段到底會不會過高?甚至於說你那個課題到底要不要加到人民?簡單請那個次長回應一下。"},{"start":628.351,"end":650.792,"text":"市長請簡單回應因為時間關係基本上呢重點是立法也要注意到比例原則這四個字啦齁那在比例原則下的話呢相關的作為也應該注意到正當程序前端的保障才能做後端的強制這樣的要配套所以剛才民進黨也提到說合意嘛合意大家要講得好就講那在比例原則合乎正當程序在後面強制的時候是不是過檔"},{"start":651.753,"end":676.005,"text":"等等這些來做深切示範。那秘書長你認為那個人家德國憲法法庭他們揭示出來的他們要發動國會調整要具備公益性才可以,你認不認同?國會委員會去考量啦,這個相關的一些原則大概都委員會在討論的過程大概會考量。好謝謝,謝謝莊委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝次長。接下來有請林委員。"}]}}}}