{"id":151462,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151462","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b445d98a0546e4fcd6728f066bc03aa2538ac5dab72e655c1c948f6a9c70dc4894db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:53:28 - 12:02:52","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等17人擬具「地方制度法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\t三、審查委員賴士葆等20人擬具「地方制度法第七條之一條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「地方制度法增訂第七條之四條文草案」案。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,36-1"},"date":"2024-04-18","duration":564,"end_time":"2024-04-18T12:02:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-18T11:53:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":802,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時53分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的機關首長官員、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請內政部吳次長。"],["主席：請吳次長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有原民會的鍾副主委。"],["主席：好，鍾副主委。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有中選會的余處長。"],["主席：好，中選會的余處長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好、副主委好、余處長好。我先請問一下副主委。請問目前我們在選舉上常用來稱呼的山地原住民和平地原住民是從什麼時候開始有這樣的界定？山地原住民和平地原住民在選舉的時候有這樣的區分是從什麼時候、哪裡開始有這個規定的？可能有點久遠了，我暗示一下，在1996年到2000年我曾經擔任第3屆的國民大會代表，那時候我們曾經修過憲法增修條文，有記憶了嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：增額國大的時候。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在增額國大之前，我們為了讓原住民族的參政權在憲法的層次當中得以保障，所以是不是我們在增修條文當中特別針對當時在終結萬年國會之後，我們進行國會的全面改選，有鑑於要保障原住民族的參政權，所以我們在增修條文中臚列了山地原住民和平地原住民的區隔，並且名額分別計算，有沒有？好，請中選會余處長。請問，我們歷來辦理這樣的一個選舉跟其他的選舉有沒有連動、關連，還是我們在辦理立法委員的選舉時就按照憲法增修條文的規定辦理，還是要受到其他地方選舉或是民意機關的改選而影響？"],["余處長淑𡝮：我們就是依法辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：依法辦理，有回答跟沒回答一樣。請問次長，次長過去在地方政府服務過，您覺得地方政府、地方民意機關的職權和中央政府立法委員的職權是不是有所區別？"],["吳次長容輝：是的，不一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼會有地方制度法跟增修條文對於國家憲政機關的規定是不太一樣的，是不是這樣？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你認為地方政府、地方議會、地方民意機關、地方民意代表的產生方式是否要完全比照憲法或增修條文當中對於中央民意機關或者立法委員選舉方式的拘束？"],["吳次長容輝：我想憲法層次規範的大概是立法委員的部分有明確的規範，地方的部分則回歸到地制法的相關規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以並沒有一定要由地制法來比照，請問鍾副主委，當初設定山地原住民和平地原住民的時候有規定山地原住民一定要住在山地鄉，平地原住民就不能住在山地鄉嗎？有沒有這個規定。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：並沒有這個規定，還是依他原來居住的環境當時的設定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當時有他的設定，後來原住民有固定在那個地方不能動了嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：遷徙自由。"],["鍾委員佳濱：遷徙自由嘛，所以現在六都是不是有很多原住民同胞在那邊居住？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問居住在六都裡面的原住民朋友到底是山地原住民還是平地原住民在沒有選舉的時候會有區分嗎？坐高鐵時要區分買票嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：並沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：登記戶籍時要區分計算嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：以目前來講，山原、平原大概是在選舉時才有區分。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，而且是選立法委員時才要，對不對？可不可以說為了保障居住在六都或者非山地鄉原住民的參政權，參與地方民意機關的名額設計不受憲法增修條文山原和平原的規範拘束，有沒有這樣的要求？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：並沒有，不過如果能提升他的參政權，我們都樂觀其成。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然我也認為要保障不管住在哪裡原住民同胞的參政權，請教中選會余處長，你知道目前屏東縣縣議會有幾席嗎？"],["余處長淑𡝮：目前？"],["鍾委員佳濱：請次長講好了，次長還比較清楚。"],["吳次長容輝：55席。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人口80萬以上是55席，現在屏東縣的人口數未達80萬，以後會剩幾席？"],["吳次長容輝：以後會剩到43席，就少了12席。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個80萬人口的計算有區分原住民和非原住民嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：它是併在一起計算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是併在一起計算的，我要說的是目前我們看到的地制法各個版本其實有很多的計算方式，但是我發現過去地制法設計時有點過頭的援用了憲法增修條文中對於原住民行使中央民意機關參政權的山原和平原的規定，也在六都居住人口當中創設了山原和平原，而且只有針對平原的部分予以名額特殊規定的計算，山原並沒有。我要說，山原跟平原本來就是在立法委員的選舉才有區分，地方民意機關不管是都或非都並沒有這樣區分，是不是？有這樣的區分嗎？我剛剛就問過了，難道投立法委員時山原和平原會限制是住在都或非都？住在山地鄉或非山地鄉？有沒有？"],["吳次長容輝：這部分是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛，為了充分保障每個都或非都地方政府的自治，應該以當地人口當中又區分成原住民族和非原住民族來保障原住民族的席次計算，你認為這樣是否妥適，是無法回答或者你們希望本會、本院解決？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這一部分現在還沒討論到底要不要跟他們併在一起。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以我在問你們的意向嘛！可能你們不便回答。而我認為在目前的版本當中，有的版本還沒有思考到針對保障原住民同胞的參政權，無論是在都與非都，在地方議會選舉當中其實沒有作區分、分別計算的必要。但是同此時間，其額數的計算會牽動地制法當中對於該縣市議會名額的計算。以屏東縣為例，80萬是以已計入原住民同胞的選民為主，而從80萬至不到80萬就差了12席。但是如果把原住民族的參政權區分開來，例如把屏東縣不到80萬、是78萬的人口區分成原住民跟非原住民，算起來屏東縣非原住民的議會席次可以達到幾席？有沒有大概初算過？我聽說大概少了5席，大概是49席到50席，是不是這樣？"],["吳次長容輝：對，跟外加一樣，會少5席，算是緩降。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，因為目前各版本中有外加、有內含，而且不是只有影響到原住民族選民的參選權利，也影響到非原住民、居住在同一縣市其他選民參與選舉席次的計算員額，是不是這樣？"],["吳次長容輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是！所以本席在此謝謝主席給本席這樣的時間。未來在我們討論地制法這個議題的時候，我強烈地支持保障原住民朋友在地方政府、地方議會的參政權，包括其席次、名額應該單獨計算，但是沒有受到憲法增修條文規範作山地跟平原之區分的必要。第二，在計算名額的同時也要兼顧到該縣市居住的非原住民人口，在計算議席消長變化之下為妥慎的規劃。對於這樣的內容，請問次長，你可以承諾給我們一個設算的結果嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：我們會把設算結果提供給委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概多久？"],["吳次長容輝：這個很快，我們……"],["鍾委員佳濱：1天、2天？還是下個星期？"],["吳次長容輝：下個星期就給委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。","那我拜託主席做個裁示，希望內政部儘快把設算的可能方向給予本院，也提供給本委員會參考，以作為後續各個版本修法時的參酌，可以嗎？"],["主席：委員，因為其他委員沒有提這樣的版本，而今天我們修的版本就是由高金素梅委員……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不！我是說內政部的報告啦！要趕快提來我們委員會啦！"],["主席：對，但我們今天就要排審我的版本還有鄭天財委員版本的增修條文，以及伍麗華委員的版本。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！不影響啦！主席，那個不影響。"],["主席：但是你剛剛說的是平原與山原部分，而我們今天只處理山原部分，好不好？"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝，那是不是裁示請內政部下週送來？"],["主席：對，我們請他提出。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員、謝謝次長。","繼續我們請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","丁學忠、丁學忠、丁學忠委員不在。","登記發言的委員除了不在場者之外，其餘都已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員莊瑞雄、丁學忠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":338,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,36-1","speakers":["高金素梅","陳玉珍","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 92.161, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"別\", \"start\": 92.161, \"end\": 92.481, \"score\": 0.813}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 92.481, \"end\": 92.641, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 92.641, \"end\": 92.761, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 92.761, \"end\": 92.881, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 92.881, \"end\": 93.822, \"score\": 0.904}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 93.822, \"end\": 94.002, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 94.002, \"end\": 94.162, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 94.162, \"end\": 94.362, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 94.362, \"end\": 94.522, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 94.522, \"end\": 95.002, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 95.002, \"end\": 95.523, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"余\", \"start\": 95.523, \"end\": 95.543, \"score\": 0.424}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}]}, {\"start\": 97.042, \"end\": 114.885, \"text\": \"那請問我們歷來辦理這樣的一個選舉跟其他的選舉有沒有連動關聯還是在辦理立法委員選舉的時候我們就按照這個憲法正條文規定辦理還是要受到其他的地方選舉或是民意機關的改選而影響有沒有\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 97.042, \"end\": 97.423, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 97.423, \"end\": 99.005, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"歷\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 99.005, \"end\": 99.565, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 99.565, \"end\": 99.685, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 99.685, \"end\": 100.847, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 100.847, \"end\": 101.207, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 101.207, \"end\": 101.428, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 101.428, \"end\": 101.608, 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\"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 113.704, \"end\": 113.844, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"改\", \"start\": 113.844, \"end\": 114.345, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"而\", \"start\": 114.345, \"end\": 114.505, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 114.505, \"end\": 114.665, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 114.665, \"end\": 114.685, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 114.685, \"end\": 114.865, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 114.865, \"end\": 114.885, \"score\": 0.017}]}, {\"start\": 115.891, \"end\": 134.167, \"text\": \"我們就是依法來辦理。依法來辦理,這個有回答跟沒回答一樣。好,我先問一下次長啦。次長,您也是過去在地方政府服務過啦。你覺得地方政府、地方民意機關的職權和中央政府、立法委員的職權是不是有所區別?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 115.891, \"end\": 116.071, \"score\": 0.817}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 116.071, \"end\": 116.231, \"score\": 0.856}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 116.231, \"end\": 116.352, \"score\": 0.847}, 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{\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 198.899, \"end\": 199.239, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 199.239, \"end\": 199.359, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 199.359, \"end\": 199.5, \"score\": 0.752}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 199.5, \"end\": 199.62, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"六\", \"start\": 199.62, \"end\": 199.9, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 199.9, \"end\": 200.1, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 200.1, \"end\": 200.22, \"score\": 0.69}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 200.22, \"end\": 200.32, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 200.32, \"end\": 200.42, \"score\": 0.789}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 200.42, \"end\": 200.601, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 200.601, \"end\": 200.901, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 200.901, \"end\": 201.041, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 201.041, \"end\": 201.141, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 201.141, \"end\": 201.321, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 201.321, \"end\": 201.421, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 201.421, \"end\": 201.562, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 201.562, \"end\": 201.742, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"胞\", \"start\": 201.742, \"end\": 201.922, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 201.922, \"end\": 202.062, \"score\": 0.741}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 202.062, \"end\": 202.202, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"居\", \"start\": 202.202, \"end\": 202.382, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 202.382, \"end\": 202.843, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 202.843, \"end\": 202.863, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"。\"}]}, {\"start\": 203.965, \"end\": 208.559, \"text\": \"請問居住在六都裡面的原住民朋友,他到底是三地原住民還是平地原住民?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"居\", \"start\": 203.965, \"end\": 204.146, 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206.533, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"底\", \"start\": 206.533, \"end\": 206.633, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 206.633, \"end\": 206.814, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 206.814, \"end\": 207.035, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 207.035, \"end\": 207.215, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 207.215, \"end\": 207.356, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 207.356, \"end\": 207.456, \"score\": 0.816}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 207.456, \"end\": 207.737, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 207.737, \"end\": 207.897, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"平\", \"start\": 207.897, \"end\": 208.078, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 208.078, \"end\": 208.218, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 208.218, \"end\": 208.399, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"住\", \"start\": 208.399, \"end\": 208.539, \"score\": 0.863}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 208.539, \"end\": 208.559, \"score\": 0.081}, {\"word\": \"?\"}]}, {\"start\": 209.83, \"end\": 236.982, \"text\": \"在沒有選舉的時候會有區分嗎?或者坐高鐵的時候要區分買票嗎?並沒有。有沒有去登記戶籍的時候要區分來計算嗎?依目前來講,三元片大概在選舉的時候才有參選。對,而且是在選立法委員的時候對不對?所以可不可以說,為了保障居住在我們六都或者非山地鄉的這些原住民的參政權,他的參與地方民意機關的名額的設計,\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 209.83, \"end\": 210.03, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 210.03, \"end\": 210.21, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 210.21, \"end\": 210.69, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"舉\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 210.69, \"end\": 210.83, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 210.83, \"end\": 211.691, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 211.691, \"end\": 212.031, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"區\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 212.031, \"end\": 213.172, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}, {\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 213.172, \"end\": 213.312, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"者\", 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\"start\": 554.415, \"end\": 554.435, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 554.435, \"end\": 554.455, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 556.305, \"end\": 556.386, \"score\": 0.748}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 556.386, \"end\": 556.406, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,895 --> 00:00:15,010\n主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府局長、首長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、技術女士先生。有請我們內政部吳次長。還有原民會的中副主委。中選會的余處長。次長好、副主委好、還有余處長好。\n\n2\n00:00:23,552 --> 00:00:46,066\n我先請問一下我們的副主委請問目前我們在選舉上常用來稱呼的三地原住民跟平地原住民是從什麼時候開始有這樣的界定的?三地原住民跟平地原住民選舉的部分在選舉的時候會有這樣的區分是從什麼時候哪裡開始有這個規定?\n\n3\n00:00:51,525 --> 00:01:10,009\n我曾經擔任過國民大會代表第三屆在1996年到2000年的時候,那時候我們曾經修過憲法整修條文,有記憶了嗎?在爭俄國大之前,我們為了讓原住民族的參政權在憲法的程式當中得以保障\n\n4\n00:01:10,709 --> 00:01:35,543\n所以是不是我們在徵修條文當中特別針對當時在終結萬年國會之後我們進行國會的全面改選有鑒於要保障原住民族的參政權所以我們在徵修條文當中有如列了三地原住民跟平地原住民的區隔並且名額分別計算有沒有是好那我們請中選會那個余處長\n\n5\n00:01:37,042 --> 00:01:54,885\n那請問我們歷來辦理這樣的一個選舉跟其他的選舉有沒有連動關聯還是在辦理立法委員選舉的時候我們就按照這個憲法正條文規定辦理還是要受到其他的地方選舉或是民意機關的改選而影響有沒有\n\n6\n00:01:55,891 --> 00:02:14,167\n我們就是依法來辦理。依法來辦理,這個有回答跟沒回答一樣。好,我先問一下次長啦。次長,您也是過去在地方政府服務過啦。你覺得地方政府、地方民意機關的職權和中央政府、立法委員的職權是不是有所區別?\n\n7\n00:02:15,367 --> 00:02:39,440\n所以為什麼會有地方制度法跟我們正優條文對於國家憲政機關的規定是不太一樣的?是不是這樣?所以你認為我們地方政府、地方議會、地方民意機關、地方民意代表產生方式是否要完全比照憲法或正優條文當中對於中央民意機關或者是立法委員選舉方式的計數?\n\n8\n00:02:41,670 --> 00:02:55,877\n我想這個憲法程式它規範大概是立法委員部分它有規範那地方的部分就回歸到地制法的相關規定所以並沒有一定要由地制法來比照好來我們請中副主委\n\n9\n00:02:57,259 --> 00:03:22,863\n請問一下,原來你知道在當初設定3D原住民跟平地原住民的時候,有規定3D原住民一定要住在3D鄉,那平地原住民就不能住在3D鄉嗎?有沒有這個規定?並沒有這個規定。並沒有這個規定?這是以他原來居住的環境當時設定的。對,當時有他的設定。後來,原住民有固定就在那個地方不能動了嗎?遷徙自由。遷徙自由嗎?是。所以現在六都是不是有很多的原住民同胞在裡面居住?是。\n\n10\n00:03:23,965 --> 00:03:28,559\n請問居住在六都裡面的原住民朋友,他到底是三地原住民還是平地原住民?\n\n11\n00:03:29,830 --> 00:03:56,982\n在沒有選舉的時候會有區分嗎?或者坐高鐵的時候要區分買票嗎?並沒有。有沒有去登記戶籍的時候要區分來計算嗎?依目前來講,三元片大概在選舉的時候才有參選。對,而且是在選立法委員的時候對不對?所以可不可以說,為了保障居住在我們六都或者非山地鄉的這些原住民的參政權,他的參與地方民意機關的名額的設計,\n\n12\n00:03:59,070 --> 00:04:20,203\n他不受到憲法正六條文三元跟平元的規範?據述有沒有這樣的要求?並沒有,不過如果提升他的參政權我們都樂觀其成。好,當然我也是認為要保障在不管居住在哪裡原住民同胞的參政權。你知道我們屏東縣,來我請一下中選會,處長。你知道我們目前屏東縣的縣議會有幾席嗎?\n\n13\n00:04:22,711 --> 00:04:27,094\n目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前\n\n14\n00:04:52,768 --> 00:05:07,822\n他是併在一起計算的。好,那我要說的一個就是說,其實目前我們看到各個版本關於地質法各個版本,其實有很多的計算方式,但是我發現過去我們在地質法的設計的時候,有一點過頭的去沿用了\n\n15\n00:05:11,085 --> 00:05:34,642\n憲法正規條文當中對於原住民行使中央民意機關參政權的山園跟平原的規定也在六都當中的人口居住人口當中去創設了山園跟平原而且只有針對平原的部分已以名額的特殊規定的計算山園並沒有那我要說的啦山園跟平原本來就存在於立法委員的選舉\n\n16\n00:05:35,723 --> 00:05:40,680\n地方民意機關,不管你是督還是非督,並沒有這樣的區分。」是不是?\n\n17\n00:05:42,264 --> 00:06:05,984\n我們有這樣的區分嗎?我剛剛就問過了嘛。難道說你在投立法委的時候在山原、在平原,會限制你住在都還是非都?住在山地下還是非山地下?有沒有?這部分是沒有。沒有嘛。所以為了充分保障每一個都或非都地方政府的自治,應該以當地人口當中,我們就區分成原住民族跟非原住民族,來保障原住民族的席次計算,你認為這樣適不妥適?\n\n18\n00:06:10,255 --> 00:06:14,830\n無好回答還是這是你們希望我們本會解決的?本願解決的?\n\n19\n00:06:16,951 --> 00:06:23,515\n我認為在目前的版本當中,有的版本還沒有去思考到其實保障原住民同胞的參政權在都與非都、在地方議會的選舉當中其實是沒有做區分分別計算的必要\n\n20\n00:06:42,421 --> 00:06:45,830\n但是同此時間因為它的額數的計算會牽動到地制法當中對於該縣市\n\n21\n00:06:52,203 --> 00:07:16,750\n議會名額計算,以屏東縣為例,你八十萬是包含已記錄原住民同胞選民為主,從八十萬到不到八十萬就差了十二席。但是如果我們把原住民族的參政權把它區分開來,我們把屏東縣的八十萬不到八十萬人口七十八萬區分成原住民跟非原住民,那這樣算起來,屏東縣的非原住民的議會席是可以幾席?\n\n22\n00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:34,848\n有沒有大概出算過?我聽說大概只有少了五席,大概是49席到50席,大概是不是這樣?對,如果假設是,這跟他外交一樣,他會少五席又會換掉。因為目前這版本有外交有內涵,不是只有影響到原住民族選民的參選權利,\n\n23\n00:07:36,331 --> 00:08:02,364\n也影響到非原住民同樣居住在同一縣市的其他選民參與參選的席次的計算元額。是不是這樣?所以我在這裡本席謝謝主席給本席這樣的時間我希望我們未來在討論地制法這個議題的時候我強烈的支持保障我們原住民朋友在地方政府、地方議會的參政權包括他的席次名額應該單獨計算\n\n24\n00:08:04,545 --> 00:08:29,173\n但是沒有受到憲法正確三元和平元區分的必要。第二、在計算名額的同時,也要兼顧到該縣市居住的非原住民人口在計算之下預期的消長的變化,為妥善的規劃。請問這樣的內容,市長你能承諾給我們一個射算的結果嗎?我們會把射算的結果提出來。\n\n25\n00:08:31,182 --> 00:08:50,254\n這個很快,我們一天兩天還是下個星期?我們下個星期就可以好,那我就跟拜託主席做個裁示希望內政部盡快的把這樣的設算的一個可能的方向給我們本院也提供一個本委員會來參考以作為後續各個版本修法的時候的參酌,可以嗎?\n\n26\n00:08:52,248 --> 00:09:14,455\n因為委員還有其他沒有提這樣的版本那今天我們修的版本就是由高金素的委員但是我們今天就要排審我的版本還有鄭天財委員一定徵兇條文這五立法委員但是你剛剛說的是平原三原這個部分因為我們今天是只有三原的部分好不好\n\n27\n00:09:16,305 --> 00:09:16,406\n審查委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1895\t15010\t主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府局長、首長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、技術女士先生。有請我們內政部吳次長。還有原民會的中副主委。中選會的余處長。次長好、副主委好、還有余處長好。\n23552\t46066\t我先請問一下我們的副主委請問目前我們在選舉上常用來稱呼的三地原住民跟平地原住民是從什麼時候開始有這樣的界定的?三地原住民跟平地原住民選舉的部分在選舉的時候會有這樣的區分是從什麼時候哪裡開始有這個規定?\n51525\t70009\t我曾經擔任過國民大會代表第三屆在1996年到2000年的時候,那時候我們曾經修過憲法整修條文,有記憶了嗎?在爭俄國大之前,我們為了讓原住民族的參政權在憲法的程式當中得以保障\n70709\t95543\t所以是不是我們在徵修條文當中特別針對當時在終結萬年國會之後我們進行國會的全面改選有鑒於要保障原住民族的參政權所以我們在徵修條文當中有如列了三地原住民跟平地原住民的區隔並且名額分別計算有沒有是好那我們請中選會那個余處長\n97042\t114885\t那請問我們歷來辦理這樣的一個選舉跟其他的選舉有沒有連動關聯還是在辦理立法委員選舉的時候我們就按照這個憲法正條文規定辦理還是要受到其他的地方選舉或是民意機關的改選而影響有沒有\n115891\t134167\t我們就是依法來辦理。依法來辦理,這個有回答跟沒回答一樣。好,我先問一下次長啦。次長,您也是過去在地方政府服務過啦。你覺得地方政府、地方民意機關的職權和中央政府、立法委員的職權是不是有所區別?\n135367\t159440\t所以為什麼會有地方制度法跟我們正優條文對於國家憲政機關的規定是不太一樣的?是不是這樣?所以你認為我們地方政府、地方議會、地方民意機關、地方民意代表產生方式是否要完全比照憲法或正優條文當中對於中央民意機關或者是立法委員選舉方式的計數?\n161670\t175877\t我想這個憲法程式它規範大概是立法委員部分它有規範那地方的部分就回歸到地制法的相關規定所以並沒有一定要由地制法來比照好來我們請中副主委\n177259\t202863\t請問一下,原來你知道在當初設定3D原住民跟平地原住民的時候,有規定3D原住民一定要住在3D鄉,那平地原住民就不能住在3D鄉嗎?有沒有這個規定?並沒有這個規定。並沒有這個規定?這是以他原來居住的環境當時設定的。對,當時有他的設定。後來,原住民有固定就在那個地方不能動了嗎?遷徙自由。遷徙自由嗎?是。所以現在六都是不是有很多的原住民同胞在裡面居住?是。\n203965\t208559\t請問居住在六都裡面的原住民朋友,他到底是三地原住民還是平地原住民?\n209830\t236982\t在沒有選舉的時候會有區分嗎?或者坐高鐵的時候要區分買票嗎?並沒有。有沒有去登記戶籍的時候要區分來計算嗎?依目前來講,三元片大概在選舉的時候才有參選。對,而且是在選立法委員的時候對不對?所以可不可以說,為了保障居住在我們六都或者非山地鄉的這些原住民的參政權,他的參與地方民意機關的名額的設計,\n239070\t260203\t他不受到憲法正六條文三元跟平元的規範?據述有沒有這樣的要求?並沒有,不過如果提升他的參政權我們都樂觀其成。好,當然我也是認為要保障在不管居住在哪裡原住民同胞的參政權。你知道我們屏東縣,來我請一下中選會,處長。你知道我們目前屏東縣的縣議會有幾席嗎?\n262711\t267094\t目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前\n292768\t307822\t他是併在一起計算的。好,那我要說的一個就是說,其實目前我們看到各個版本關於地質法各個版本,其實有很多的計算方式,但是我發現過去我們在地質法的設計的時候,有一點過頭的去沿用了\n311085\t334642\t憲法正規條文當中對於原住民行使中央民意機關參政權的山園跟平原的規定也在六都當中的人口居住人口當中去創設了山園跟平原而且只有針對平原的部分已以名額的特殊規定的計算山園並沒有那我要說的啦山園跟平原本來就存在於立法委員的選舉\n335723\t340680\t地方民意機關,不管你是督還是非督,並沒有這樣的區分。」是不是?\n342264\t365984\t我們有這樣的區分嗎?我剛剛就問過了嘛。難道說你在投立法委的時候在山原、在平原,會限制你住在都還是非都?住在山地下還是非山地下?有沒有?這部分是沒有。沒有嘛。所以為了充分保障每一個都或非都地方政府的自治,應該以當地人口當中,我們就區分成原住民族跟非原住民族,來保障原住民族的席次計算,你認為這樣適不妥適?\n370255\t374830\t無好回答還是這是你們希望我們本會解決的?本願解決的?\n376951\t383515\t我認為在目前的版本當中,有的版本還沒有去思考到其實保障原住民同胞的參政權在都與非都、在地方議會的選舉當中其實是沒有做區分分別計算的必要\n402421\t405830\t但是同此時間因為它的額數的計算會牽動到地制法當中對於該縣市\n412203\t436750\t議會名額計算,以屏東縣為例,你八十萬是包含已記錄原住民同胞選民為主,從八十萬到不到八十萬就差了十二席。但是如果我們把原住民族的參政權把它區分開來,我們把屏東縣的八十萬不到八十萬人口七十八萬區分成原住民跟非原住民,那這樣算起來,屏東縣的非原住民的議會席是可以幾席?\n439400\t454848\t有沒有大概出算過?我聽說大概只有少了五席,大概是49席到50席,大概是不是這樣?對,如果假設是,這跟他外交一樣,他會少五席又會換掉。因為目前這版本有外交有內涵,不是只有影響到原住民族選民的參選權利,\n456331\t482364\t也影響到非原住民同樣居住在同一縣市的其他選民參與參選的席次的計算元額。是不是這樣?所以我在這裡本席謝謝主席給本席這樣的時間我希望我們未來在討論地制法這個議題的時候我強烈的支持保障我們原住民朋友在地方政府、地方議會的參政權包括他的席次名額應該單獨計算\n484545\t509173\t但是沒有受到憲法正確三元和平元區分的必要。第二、在計算名額的同時,也要兼顧到該縣市居住的非原住民人口在計算之下預期的消長的變化,為妥善的規劃。請問這樣的內容,市長你能承諾給我們一個射算的結果嗎?我們會把射算的結果提出來。\n511182\t530254\t這個很快,我們一天兩天還是下個星期?我們下個星期就可以好,那我就跟拜託主席做個裁示希望內政部盡快的把這樣的設算的一個可能的方向給我們本院也提供一個本委員會來參考以作為後續各個版本修法的時候的參酌,可以嗎?\n532248\t554455\t因為委員還有其他沒有提這樣的版本那今天我們修的版本就是由高金素的委員但是我們今天就要排審我的版本還有鄭天財委員一定徵兇條文這五立法委員但是你剛剛說的是平原三原這個部分因為我們今天是只有三原的部分好不好\n556305\t556406\t審查委員\n","txt":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府局長、首長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、技術女士先生。有請我們內政部吳次長。還有原民會的中副主委。中選會的余處長。次長好、副主委好、還有余處長好。\n我先請問一下我們的副主委請問目前我們在選舉上常用來稱呼的三地原住民跟平地原住民是從什麼時候開始有這樣的界定的?三地原住民跟平地原住民選舉的部分在選舉的時候會有這樣的區分是從什麼時候哪裡開始有這個規定?\n我曾經擔任過國民大會代表第三屆在1996年到2000年的時候,那時候我們曾經修過憲法整修條文,有記憶了嗎?在爭俄國大之前,我們為了讓原住民族的參政權在憲法的程式當中得以保障\n所以是不是我們在徵修條文當中特別針對當時在終結萬年國會之後我們進行國會的全面改選有鑒於要保障原住民族的參政權所以我們在徵修條文當中有如列了三地原住民跟平地原住民的區隔並且名額分別計算有沒有是好那我們請中選會那個余處長\n那請問我們歷來辦理這樣的一個選舉跟其他的選舉有沒有連動關聯還是在辦理立法委員選舉的時候我們就按照這個憲法正條文規定辦理還是要受到其他的地方選舉或是民意機關的改選而影響有沒有\n我們就是依法來辦理。依法來辦理,這個有回答跟沒回答一樣。好,我先問一下次長啦。次長,您也是過去在地方政府服務過啦。你覺得地方政府、地方民意機關的職權和中央政府、立法委員的職權是不是有所區別?\n所以為什麼會有地方制度法跟我們正優條文對於國家憲政機關的規定是不太一樣的?是不是這樣?所以你認為我們地方政府、地方議會、地方民意機關、地方民意代表產生方式是否要完全比照憲法或正優條文當中對於中央民意機關或者是立法委員選舉方式的計數?\n我想這個憲法程式它規範大概是立法委員部分它有規範那地方的部分就回歸到地制法的相關規定所以並沒有一定要由地制法來比照好來我們請中副主委\n請問一下,原來你知道在當初設定3D原住民跟平地原住民的時候,有規定3D原住民一定要住在3D鄉,那平地原住民就不能住在3D鄉嗎?有沒有這個規定?並沒有這個規定。並沒有這個規定?這是以他原來居住的環境當時設定的。對,當時有他的設定。後來,原住民有固定就在那個地方不能動了嗎?遷徙自由。遷徙自由嗎?是。所以現在六都是不是有很多的原住民同胞在裡面居住?是。\n請問居住在六都裡面的原住民朋友,他到底是三地原住民還是平地原住民?\n在沒有選舉的時候會有區分嗎?或者坐高鐵的時候要區分買票嗎?並沒有。有沒有去登記戶籍的時候要區分來計算嗎?依目前來講,三元片大概在選舉的時候才有參選。對,而且是在選立法委員的時候對不對?所以可不可以說,為了保障居住在我們六都或者非山地鄉的這些原住民的參政權,他的參與地方民意機關的名額的設計,\n他不受到憲法正六條文三元跟平元的規範?據述有沒有這樣的要求?並沒有,不過如果提升他的參政權我們都樂觀其成。好,當然我也是認為要保障在不管居住在哪裡原住民同胞的參政權。你知道我們屏東縣,來我請一下中選會,處長。你知道我們目前屏東縣的縣議會有幾席嗎?\n目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前\n他是併在一起計算的。好,那我要說的一個就是說,其實目前我們看到各個版本關於地質法各個版本,其實有很多的計算方式,但是我發現過去我們在地質法的設計的時候,有一點過頭的去沿用了\n憲法正規條文當中對於原住民行使中央民意機關參政權的山園跟平原的規定也在六都當中的人口居住人口當中去創設了山園跟平原而且只有針對平原的部分已以名額的特殊規定的計算山園並沒有那我要說的啦山園跟平原本來就存在於立法委員的選舉\n地方民意機關,不管你是督還是非督,並沒有這樣的區分。」是不是?\n我們有這樣的區分嗎?我剛剛就問過了嘛。難道說你在投立法委的時候在山原、在平原,會限制你住在都還是非都?住在山地下還是非山地下?有沒有?這部分是沒有。沒有嘛。所以為了充分保障每一個都或非都地方政府的自治,應該以當地人口當中,我們就區分成原住民族跟非原住民族,來保障原住民族的席次計算,你認為這樣適不妥適?\n無好回答還是這是你們希望我們本會解決的?本願解決的?\n我認為在目前的版本當中,有的版本還沒有去思考到其實保障原住民同胞的參政權在都與非都、在地方議會的選舉當中其實是沒有做區分分別計算的必要\n但是同此時間因為它的額數的計算會牽動到地制法當中對於該縣市\n議會名額計算,以屏東縣為例,你八十萬是包含已記錄原住民同胞選民為主,從八十萬到不到八十萬就差了十二席。但是如果我們把原住民族的參政權把它區分開來,我們把屏東縣的八十萬不到八十萬人口七十八萬區分成原住民跟非原住民,那這樣算起來,屏東縣的非原住民的議會席是可以幾席?\n有沒有大概出算過?我聽說大概只有少了五席,大概是49席到50席,大概是不是這樣?對,如果假設是,這跟他外交一樣,他會少五席又會換掉。因為目前這版本有外交有內涵,不是只有影響到原住民族選民的參選權利,\n也影響到非原住民同樣居住在同一縣市的其他選民參與參選的席次的計算元額。是不是這樣?所以我在這裡本席謝謝主席給本席這樣的時間我希望我們未來在討論地制法這個議題的時候我強烈的支持保障我們原住民朋友在地方政府、地方議會的參政權包括他的席次名額應該單獨計算\n但是沒有受到憲法正確三元和平元區分的必要。第二、在計算名額的同時,也要兼顧到該縣市居住的非原住民人口在計算之下預期的消長的變化,為妥善的規劃。請問這樣的內容,市長你能承諾給我們一個射算的結果嗎?我們會把射算的結果提出來。\n這個很快,我們一天兩天還是下個星期?我們下個星期就可以好,那我就跟拜託主席做個裁示希望內政部盡快的把這樣的設算的一個可能的方向給我們本院也提供一個本委員會來參考以作為後續各個版本修法的時候的參酌,可以嗎?\n因為委員還有其他沒有提這樣的版本那今天我們修的版本就是由高金素的委員但是我們今天就要排審我的版本還有鄭天財委員一定徵兇條文這五立法委員但是你剛剛說的是平原三原這個部分因為我們今天是只有三原的部分好不好\n審查委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.895 --> 00:15.010\n主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府局長、首長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、技術女士先生。有請我們內政部吳次長。還有原民會的中副主委。中選會的余處長。次長好、副主委好、還有余處長好。\n\n00:23.552 --> 00:46.066\n我先請問一下我們的副主委請問目前我們在選舉上常用來稱呼的三地原住民跟平地原住民是從什麼時候開始有這樣的界定的?三地原住民跟平地原住民選舉的部分在選舉的時候會有這樣的區分是從什麼時候哪裡開始有這個規定?\n\n00:51.525 --> 01:10.009\n我曾經擔任過國民大會代表第三屆在1996年到2000年的時候,那時候我們曾經修過憲法整修條文,有記憶了嗎?在爭俄國大之前,我們為了讓原住民族的參政權在憲法的程式當中得以保障\n\n01:10.709 --> 01:35.543\n所以是不是我們在徵修條文當中特別針對當時在終結萬年國會之後我們進行國會的全面改選有鑒於要保障原住民族的參政權所以我們在徵修條文當中有如列了三地原住民跟平地原住民的區隔並且名額分別計算有沒有是好那我們請中選會那個余處長\n\n01:37.042 --> 01:54.885\n那請問我們歷來辦理這樣的一個選舉跟其他的選舉有沒有連動關聯還是在辦理立法委員選舉的時候我們就按照這個憲法正條文規定辦理還是要受到其他的地方選舉或是民意機關的改選而影響有沒有\n\n01:55.891 --> 02:14.167\n我們就是依法來辦理。依法來辦理,這個有回答跟沒回答一樣。好,我先問一下次長啦。次長,您也是過去在地方政府服務過啦。你覺得地方政府、地方民意機關的職權和中央政府、立法委員的職權是不是有所區別?\n\n02:15.367 --> 02:39.440\n所以為什麼會有地方制度法跟我們正優條文對於國家憲政機關的規定是不太一樣的?是不是這樣?所以你認為我們地方政府、地方議會、地方民意機關、地方民意代表產生方式是否要完全比照憲法或正優條文當中對於中央民意機關或者是立法委員選舉方式的計數?\n\n02:41.670 --> 02:55.877\n我想這個憲法程式它規範大概是立法委員部分它有規範那地方的部分就回歸到地制法的相關規定所以並沒有一定要由地制法來比照好來我們請中副主委\n\n02:57.259 --> 03:22.863\n請問一下,原來你知道在當初設定3D原住民跟平地原住民的時候,有規定3D原住民一定要住在3D鄉,那平地原住民就不能住在3D鄉嗎?有沒有這個規定?並沒有這個規定。並沒有這個規定?這是以他原來居住的環境當時設定的。對,當時有他的設定。後來,原住民有固定就在那個地方不能動了嗎?遷徙自由。遷徙自由嗎?是。所以現在六都是不是有很多的原住民同胞在裡面居住?是。\n\n03:23.965 --> 03:28.559\n請問居住在六都裡面的原住民朋友,他到底是三地原住民還是平地原住民?\n\n03:29.830 --> 03:56.982\n在沒有選舉的時候會有區分嗎?或者坐高鐵的時候要區分買票嗎?並沒有。有沒有去登記戶籍的時候要區分來計算嗎?依目前來講,三元片大概在選舉的時候才有參選。對,而且是在選立法委員的時候對不對?所以可不可以說,為了保障居住在我們六都或者非山地鄉的這些原住民的參政權,他的參與地方民意機關的名額的設計,\n\n03:59.070 --> 04:20.203\n他不受到憲法正六條文三元跟平元的規範?據述有沒有這樣的要求?並沒有,不過如果提升他的參政權我們都樂觀其成。好,當然我也是認為要保障在不管居住在哪裡原住民同胞的參政權。你知道我們屏東縣,來我請一下中選會,處長。你知道我們目前屏東縣的縣議會有幾席嗎?\n\n04:22.711 --> 04:27.094\n目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前\n\n04:52.768 --> 05:07.822\n他是併在一起計算的。好,那我要說的一個就是說,其實目前我們看到各個版本關於地質法各個版本,其實有很多的計算方式,但是我發現過去我們在地質法的設計的時候,有一點過頭的去沿用了\n\n05:11.085 --> 05:34.642\n憲法正規條文當中對於原住民行使中央民意機關參政權的山園跟平原的規定也在六都當中的人口居住人口當中去創設了山園跟平原而且只有針對平原的部分已以名額的特殊規定的計算山園並沒有那我要說的啦山園跟平原本來就存在於立法委員的選舉\n\n05:35.723 --> 05:40.680\n地方民意機關,不管你是督還是非督,並沒有這樣的區分。」是不是?\n\n05:42.264 --> 06:05.984\n我們有這樣的區分嗎?我剛剛就問過了嘛。難道說你在投立法委的時候在山原、在平原,會限制你住在都還是非都?住在山地下還是非山地下?有沒有?這部分是沒有。沒有嘛。所以為了充分保障每一個都或非都地方政府的自治,應該以當地人口當中,我們就區分成原住民族跟非原住民族,來保障原住民族的席次計算,你認為這樣適不妥適?\n\n06:10.255 --> 06:14.830\n無好回答還是這是你們希望我們本會解決的?本願解決的?\n\n06:16.951 --> 06:23.515\n我認為在目前的版本當中,有的版本還沒有去思考到其實保障原住民同胞的參政權在都與非都、在地方議會的選舉當中其實是沒有做區分分別計算的必要\n\n06:42.421 --> 06:45.830\n但是同此時間因為它的額數的計算會牽動到地制法當中對於該縣市\n\n06:52.203 --> 07:16.750\n議會名額計算,以屏東縣為例,你八十萬是包含已記錄原住民同胞選民為主,從八十萬到不到八十萬就差了十二席。但是如果我們把原住民族的參政權把它區分開來,我們把屏東縣的八十萬不到八十萬人口七十八萬區分成原住民跟非原住民,那這樣算起來,屏東縣的非原住民的議會席是可以幾席?\n\n07:19.400 --> 07:34.848\n有沒有大概出算過?我聽說大概只有少了五席,大概是49席到50席,大概是不是這樣?對,如果假設是,這跟他外交一樣,他會少五席又會換掉。因為目前這版本有外交有內涵,不是只有影響到原住民族選民的參選權利,\n\n07:36.331 --> 08:02.364\n也影響到非原住民同樣居住在同一縣市的其他選民參與參選的席次的計算元額。是不是這樣?所以我在這裡本席謝謝主席給本席這樣的時間我希望我們未來在討論地制法這個議題的時候我強烈的支持保障我們原住民朋友在地方政府、地方議會的參政權包括他的席次名額應該單獨計算\n\n08:04.545 --> 08:29.173\n但是沒有受到憲法正確三元和平元區分的必要。第二、在計算名額的同時,也要兼顧到該縣市居住的非原住民人口在計算之下預期的消長的變化,為妥善的規劃。請問這樣的內容,市長你能承諾給我們一個射算的結果嗎?我們會把射算的結果提出來。\n\n08:31.182 --> 08:50.254\n這個很快,我們一天兩天還是下個星期?我們下個星期就可以好,那我就跟拜託主席做個裁示希望內政部盡快的把這樣的設算的一個可能的方向給我們本院也提供一個本委員會來參考以作為後續各個版本修法的時候的參酌,可以嗎?\n\n08:52.248 --> 09:14.455\n因為委員還有其他沒有提這樣的版本那今天我們修的版本就是由高金素的委員但是我們今天就要排審我的版本還有鄭天財委員一定徵兇條文這五立法委員但是你剛剛說的是平原三原這個部分因為我們今天是只有三原的部分好不好\n\n09:16.305 --> 09:16.406\n審查委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.895,"end":15.01,"text":"主席、在場委員、先進、列席的政府局長、首長、官員、會長、公眾夥伴、媒體、技術女士先生。有請我們內政部吳次長。還有原民會的中副主委。中選會的余處長。次長好、副主委好、還有余處長好。"},{"start":23.552,"end":46.066,"text":"我先請問一下我們的副主委請問目前我們在選舉上常用來稱呼的三地原住民跟平地原住民是從什麼時候開始有這樣的界定的?三地原住民跟平地原住民選舉的部分在選舉的時候會有這樣的區分是從什麼時候哪裡開始有這個規定?"},{"start":51.525,"end":70.009,"text":"我曾經擔任過國民大會代表第三屆在1996年到2000年的時候,那時候我們曾經修過憲法整修條文,有記憶了嗎?在爭俄國大之前,我們為了讓原住民族的參政權在憲法的程式當中得以保障"},{"start":70.709,"end":95.543,"text":"所以是不是我們在徵修條文當中特別針對當時在終結萬年國會之後我們進行國會的全面改選有鑒於要保障原住民族的參政權所以我們在徵修條文當中有如列了三地原住民跟平地原住民的區隔並且名額分別計算有沒有是好那我們請中選會那個余處長"},{"start":97.042,"end":114.885,"text":"那請問我們歷來辦理這樣的一個選舉跟其他的選舉有沒有連動關聯還是在辦理立法委員選舉的時候我們就按照這個憲法正條文規定辦理還是要受到其他的地方選舉或是民意機關的改選而影響有沒有"},{"start":115.891,"end":134.167,"text":"我們就是依法來辦理。依法來辦理,這個有回答跟沒回答一樣。好,我先問一下次長啦。次長,您也是過去在地方政府服務過啦。你覺得地方政府、地方民意機關的職權和中央政府、立法委員的職權是不是有所區別?"},{"start":135.367,"end":159.44,"text":"所以為什麼會有地方制度法跟我們正優條文對於國家憲政機關的規定是不太一樣的?是不是這樣?所以你認為我們地方政府、地方議會、地方民意機關、地方民意代表產生方式是否要完全比照憲法或正優條文當中對於中央民意機關或者是立法委員選舉方式的計數?"},{"start":161.67,"end":175.877,"text":"我想這個憲法程式它規範大概是立法委員部分它有規範那地方的部分就回歸到地制法的相關規定所以並沒有一定要由地制法來比照好來我們請中副主委"},{"start":177.259,"end":202.863,"text":"請問一下,原來你知道在當初設定3D原住民跟平地原住民的時候,有規定3D原住民一定要住在3D鄉,那平地原住民就不能住在3D鄉嗎?有沒有這個規定?並沒有這個規定。並沒有這個規定?這是以他原來居住的環境當時設定的。對,當時有他的設定。後來,原住民有固定就在那個地方不能動了嗎?遷徙自由。遷徙自由嗎?是。所以現在六都是不是有很多的原住民同胞在裡面居住?是。"},{"start":203.965,"end":208.559,"text":"請問居住在六都裡面的原住民朋友,他到底是三地原住民還是平地原住民?"},{"start":209.83,"end":236.982,"text":"在沒有選舉的時候會有區分嗎?或者坐高鐵的時候要區分買票嗎?並沒有。有沒有去登記戶籍的時候要區分來計算嗎?依目前來講,三元片大概在選舉的時候才有參選。對,而且是在選立法委員的時候對不對?所以可不可以說,為了保障居住在我們六都或者非山地鄉的這些原住民的參政權,他的參與地方民意機關的名額的設計,"},{"start":239.07,"end":260.203,"text":"他不受到憲法正六條文三元跟平元的規範?據述有沒有這樣的要求?並沒有,不過如果提升他的參政權我們都樂觀其成。好,當然我也是認為要保障在不管居住在哪裡原住民同胞的參政權。你知道我們屏東縣,來我請一下中選會,處長。你知道我們目前屏東縣的縣議會有幾席嗎?"},{"start":262.711,"end":267.094,"text":"目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前目前"},{"start":292.768,"end":307.822,"text":"他是併在一起計算的。好,那我要說的一個就是說,其實目前我們看到各個版本關於地質法各個版本,其實有很多的計算方式,但是我發現過去我們在地質法的設計的時候,有一點過頭的去沿用了"},{"start":311.085,"end":334.642,"text":"憲法正規條文當中對於原住民行使中央民意機關參政權的山園跟平原的規定也在六都當中的人口居住人口當中去創設了山園跟平原而且只有針對平原的部分已以名額的特殊規定的計算山園並沒有那我要說的啦山園跟平原本來就存在於立法委員的選舉"},{"start":335.723,"end":340.68,"text":"地方民意機關,不管你是督還是非督,並沒有這樣的區分。」是不是?"},{"start":342.264,"end":365.984,"text":"我們有這樣的區分嗎?我剛剛就問過了嘛。難道說你在投立法委的時候在山原、在平原,會限制你住在都還是非都?住在山地下還是非山地下?有沒有?這部分是沒有。沒有嘛。所以為了充分保障每一個都或非都地方政府的自治,應該以當地人口當中,我們就區分成原住民族跟非原住民族,來保障原住民族的席次計算,你認為這樣適不妥適?"},{"start":370.255,"end":374.83,"text":"無好回答還是這是你們希望我們本會解決的?本願解決的?"},{"start":376.951,"end":383.515,"text":"我認為在目前的版本當中,有的版本還沒有去思考到其實保障原住民同胞的參政權在都與非都、在地方議會的選舉當中其實是沒有做區分分別計算的必要"},{"start":402.421,"end":405.83,"text":"但是同此時間因為它的額數的計算會牽動到地制法當中對於該縣市"},{"start":412.203,"end":436.75,"text":"議會名額計算,以屏東縣為例,你八十萬是包含已記錄原住民同胞選民為主,從八十萬到不到八十萬就差了十二席。但是如果我們把原住民族的參政權把它區分開來,我們把屏東縣的八十萬不到八十萬人口七十八萬區分成原住民跟非原住民,那這樣算起來,屏東縣的非原住民的議會席是可以幾席?"},{"start":439.4,"end":454.848,"text":"有沒有大概出算過?我聽說大概只有少了五席,大概是49席到50席,大概是不是這樣?對,如果假設是,這跟他外交一樣,他會少五席又會換掉。因為目前這版本有外交有內涵,不是只有影響到原住民族選民的參選權利,"},{"start":456.331,"end":482.364,"text":"也影響到非原住民同樣居住在同一縣市的其他選民參與參選的席次的計算元額。是不是這樣?所以我在這裡本席謝謝主席給本席這樣的時間我希望我們未來在討論地制法這個議題的時候我強烈的支持保障我們原住民朋友在地方政府、地方議會的參政權包括他的席次名額應該單獨計算"},{"start":484.545,"end":509.173,"text":"但是沒有受到憲法正確三元和平元區分的必要。第二、在計算名額的同時,也要兼顧到該縣市居住的非原住民人口在計算之下預期的消長的變化,為妥善的規劃。請問這樣的內容,市長你能承諾給我們一個射算的結果嗎?我們會把射算的結果提出來。"},{"start":511.182,"end":530.254,"text":"這個很快,我們一天兩天還是下個星期?我們下個星期就可以好,那我就跟拜託主席做個裁示希望內政部盡快的把這樣的設算的一個可能的方向給我們本院也提供一個本委員會來參考以作為後續各個版本修法的時候的參酌,可以嗎?"},{"start":532.248,"end":554.455,"text":"因為委員還有其他沒有提這樣的版本那今天我們修的版本就是由高金素的委員但是我們今天就要排審我的版本還有鄭天財委員一定徵兇條文這五立法委員但是你剛剛說的是平原三原這個部分因為我們今天是只有三原的部分好不好"},{"start":556.305,"end":556.406,"text":"審查委員"}]}}}}