{"id":151466,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151466","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/566e821c95e2b4455b37e0e4d6a693cdf81d0e85270258c9c5dab72e655c1c94c22e425c45b5ead05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:20:52 - 12:31:31","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2024-04-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n四、委員鄭天財Sra 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\"制\", \"start\": 96.536, \"end\": 96.736, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 96.736, \"end\": 97.137, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 97.137, \"end\": 97.297, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 97.297, \"end\": 97.317, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"違\"}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 100.246, \"end\": 128.083, \"text\": \"從五八五一路這樣推下因為本來立法院的調查權跟委員八號過五八五號解釋變本來是賦予我們這個普世性的權利嘛那在已經很明確的在解釋文裡面寫得很清楚了是 謝謝民主黨好 那我想請教一下那你知不知道為什麼憲法賦予這個國會的這個調查權這個權利我們一直急著要把它法制化民主黨知道原因嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"從\"}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 100.246, \"end\": 100.366, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"八\", \"start\": 100.366, \"end\": 100.546, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"五\", \"start\": 100.546, \"end\": 100.686, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 100.686, \"end\": 100.766, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 100.766, \"end\": 101.147, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": 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125.841, \"end\": 125.981, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"它\", \"start\": 125.981, \"end\": 126.142, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 126.142, \"end\": 126.402, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 126.402, \"end\": 126.642, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 126.642, \"end\": 127.262, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 127.262, \"end\": 127.442, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 127.442, \"end\": 127.662, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"黨\"}, {\"word\": \"知\", \"start\": 127.662, \"end\": 127.742, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"道\", \"start\": 127.742, \"end\": 127.923, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 127.923, \"end\": 128.063, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 128.063, \"end\": 128.083, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 129.861, \"end\": 157.414, \"text\": \"其實我上次也說過因為我們現行的職權行使法本來就不足嘛所以因為當時我88年在處理的時候是只有3到5號解釋只有文件調閱那58號解釋是1993年才有的所以必須要去補強所以國衛的內內規的職權行使法在補強的時候調壓前這一章裡面本來就需要稍微再修正啦\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 129.861, \"end\": 130.521, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 130.521, \"end\": 130.841, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 130.841, \"end\": 131.062, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 131.062, \"end\": 131.202, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 131.202, \"end\": 131.762, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 131.762, \"end\": 132.442, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 132.442, \"end\": 133.043, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 133.043, \"end\": 133.223, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 133.223, \"end\": 133.563, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 133.563, 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\"start\": 633.797, \"end\": 633.817, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"非\", \"start\": 633.817, \"end\": 633.917, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 633.917, \"end\": 633.937, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 633.937, \"end\": 633.957, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,319 --> 00:00:07,919\n麻煩秘書長秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:13,396 --> 00:00:36,365\n委員好秘書長好我想請教一下秘書長我先提一下我想國會調查權它的一個理念其實我們在法律上面也可以看到有相類似的理念比如說政府資訊公開法或檔案法這些東西其實它主要實現的就是人民資的權利所以我覺得國會調查權因為國會的這些議員都是\n\n3\n00:00:41,167 --> 00:01:00,204\n人民選出來的。他一樣是在實踐人民對於知的一個權利。所以我想請教一下秘書長對於大法官皆是以調查權然後獲取資訊能夠讓國會善盡民意機關的職責那秘書長是否同意憲法賦予立法院的這個職責?\n\n4\n00:01:01,425 --> 00:01:01,445\n案。\n\n5\n00:01:17,125 --> 00:01:37,317\n違反解讀秘書長的說法。」所以我想說秘書長這邊其實說得非常清楚那我們對於法律的見解我想說我大概的想法跟秘書長也是類似所以那個記者的報導可能有所誤解那我想請教一下那依據我們剛剛所說的那國會制定調查權這是違憲嗎\n\n6\n00:01:40,246 --> 00:02:08,083\n從五八五一路這樣推下因為本來立法院的調查權跟委員八號過五八五號解釋變本來是賦予我們這個普世性的權利嘛那在已經很明確的在解釋文裡面寫得很清楚了是謝謝民主黨好那我想請教一下那你知不知道為什麼憲法賦予這個國會的這個調查權這個權利我們一直急著要把它法制化民主黨知道原因嗎\n\n7\n00:02:09,861 --> 00:02:37,414\n其實我上次也說過因為我們現行的職權行使法本來就不足嘛所以因為當時我88年在處理的時候是只有3到5號解釋只有文件調閱那58號解釋是1993年才有的所以必須要去補強所以國衛的內內規的職權行使法在補強的時候調壓前這一章裡面本來就需要稍微再修正啦\n\n8\n00:02:37,834 --> 00:03:01,931\n我上次也說過我想我們把一個憲法上面的權利我們把它法制化中間有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要把它的行使的要件把它明文對不對因為我國是仇文法國家我們把它明文下來讓政府讓這些立法委員在質詢的時候他有所依詢嘛那另外還有一個就是\n\n9\n00:03:03,106 --> 00:03:18,096\n如果你沒有一個法制化的話很容易在運作的時候就造成侵害人民權利甚至洩漏國家機密的風險所以這就是我們為什麼急著把它法制化的一個非常重要的原因\n\n10\n00:03:19,980 --> 00:03:39,747\n我來談一下就是說其實最近有很多人有很多委員一直講嘛哇你這個調查權這個什麼出來之後或者是你的對於這個呃呃國會國會對於這些受調查者的一些請他來說明或者是一些處罰他說這是老民啊什麼但是我在這邊跟各位報告\n\n11\n00:03:41,246 --> 00:04:05,657\n其實三權分立國家他們的國會也常常有很多東西是要去詢問到一般民間機關但是他是有個前提他絕對不是說亂七八糟想叫你來就來他一定是調查的事項是涉及到公共利益而且跟國會的職權有關聯性的時候才會做這件事情所以\n\n12\n00:04:06,317 --> 00:04:28,762\n很多時候是被帶風向,很多時候是危言聳聽,跟人民說哇那你家開麵店我就傳你過來國會這邊處罰,沒有這種事情啦。那你說華航,假設華航今天那個飛機沒有保養好,發生一些事故,我們請他來說明,這種跟公共利益有重大關聯性,這個才有可能。\n\n13\n00:04:29,082 --> 00:04:43,932\n例如美國國會常常找波音公司去問為什麼沒有人說他們那個叫老民我想說這個部分我想剛剛把它解釋說明一下這是怎麼回事另外就是我覺得\n\n14\n00:04:45,850 --> 00:05:14,329\n我們在行使這個調查權的時候比如說我的版本以及黨團的版本其實都非常的寫得很清楚就是有關調查權的行使我們是會那個準用到行政程序法以及刑事訴訟法其實為什麼我當時在寫法案的時候我會特別要求這個因為我自己本身是很重視程序正義我要求國會在做調查的時候在做懲罰的時候\n\n15\n00:05:16,051 --> 00:05:34,526\n不能自以妄為、不能擴權,所以一切要依照、要準用相關的程序法,這樣子才能保障人民的權利,也讓人民有救濟的管道。」這就是為什麼我的版本一直堅持說有一些東西要準用相關的程序法,也就是說在\n\n16\n00:05:35,587 --> 00:05:37,347\n議員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n\n17\n00:05:59,252 --> 00:06:00,192\n一、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n\n18\n00:06:19,557 --> 00:06:34,623\n關於機密外洩的問題,我們剛剛有講到說立法院職權行使的時候也是要保障讓機密不能外洩。你知不知道就是就我們立法院職權行使法還有國家機密保障法都有規範到這個部分。\n\n19\n00:06:36,784 --> 00:07:03,513\n例如說4至729號他有提到當立法院進行文件調閱的時候對於包含工商秘密的部分其實立法委員他有進到這個保密的義務這個在729號也寫得非常清楚也就是說729號其實他在你符合法定程序之下進到這些保密義務之下其實你去調閱這些私人的工商秘密這個是合憲的\n\n20\n00:07:04,113 --> 00:07:29,667\n我想大家可以去閱讀729號我想729號跟585號我們在這邊多次的攻防但我要跟各位報告法律的閱讀判決判例的閱讀我從學生時代到現在我就知道一個點不能只截一段來看必須整篇把它看完不能只截頭來看尾不看所以上次行政院副秘書長來這裡我為什麼發脾氣因為他在胡說八道\n\n21\n00:07:30,707 --> 00:07:58,386\n他亂解485號所以那次我很不高興我認為行政院的高官來這裡不能講那種話你要是說不懂的人來講就算了高官來這裡亂講話帶風向這個我不太能接受這也是國之不信啊走到那個位置的人卻胡說八道這真的不應該尤其行政本來要維持中立他不能玩政治他應該要持平的說如果你今天你依照585號去講我沒有意見但是你不能亂解485號\n\n22\n00:08:00,408 --> 00:08:01,073\n好,那那個\n\n23\n00:08:02,657 --> 00:08:29,813\n我想我最後我可能講一個東西也幫大家示意因為今天有直播示意幾個東西第一個我想柯總召他前幾天有講一句話叫做總統會被抓去關我想第一個我們念過憲法的人一定知道我不是迴憲亂政憲法五十二條非常清楚總統有刑事或免權\n\n24\n00:08:30,613 --> 00:08:39,926\n所以絕對不會發生總統在那邊被問一問抓去關的事情所以不要亂帶風向憲法五十二條再來第二個\n\n25\n00:08:41,598 --> 00:09:05,643\n有關我們藐視國會罪,其實這個適用上面也跟總統的關聯性沒有那麼大。比如說我的版本,總統他來國情報告他是基於憲政的秩序,跟質詢行政院的規範不同,跟聽證調查權的規範也不同,所以不會發生那種什麼總統來問一問被抓去關這個事情。\n\n26\n00:09:06,643 --> 00:09:24,722\n這崩馬牛不相及啊不能混在一起講所以我認為是這樣啦每一位我上次有講每一位立委先進我在這邊政治之力是最淺的每一位立委先進我都很敬佩每一個立委都是他的家族他的父母眼中的驕傲但是來這裡我認為不能亂帶風向\n\n27\n00:09:27,425 --> 00:09:53,273\n今天這個法案這個法律規範即使跟國民黨的邏輯不同我也不敢隨便亂講這是我的堅持所以我對於法律的解釋對於釋制的解釋我不會挑有力的來講我一定是持平看完之後該怎麼說就怎麼說就像我說總統要不要急問急答我的想法跟黨團不一樣那我勇於講出我的想法嘛我還是要講出我對於憲法的\n\n28\n00:09:54,033 --> 00:10:08,509\n感受是怎麼樣?跟大家不一定一樣但是我必須要勇敢的說出來那一樣我對於柯董昭說總統被抓去關這個我也覺得這個是亂帶風向因為憲法明定總統有刑事豁免權\n\n29\n00:10:09,790 --> 00:10:33,957\n再來我們說的行政院的這些我們對於行政權的這些監督這些聽證調查權跟總統也無關所以不存在總統抓去關這件事情我在這邊要特別說明我一切依法論法任何人都可以挑戰我的想法好那謝謝在這邊謝謝剛剛把這些我對於這個國會改革的一些想法提出來謝謝各位好謝謝吳朝偉的質詢我非常認同\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7319\t7919\t麻煩秘書長秘書長\n13396\t36365\t委員好秘書長好我想請教一下秘書長我先提一下我想國會調查權它的一個理念其實我們在法律上面也可以看到有相類似的理念比如說政府資訊公開法或檔案法這些東西其實它主要實現的就是人民資的權利所以我覺得國會調查權因為國會的這些議員都是\n41167\t60204\t人民選出來的。他一樣是在實踐人民對於知的一個權利。所以我想請教一下秘書長對於大法官皆是以調查權然後獲取資訊能夠讓國會善盡民意機關的職責那秘書長是否同意憲法賦予立法院的這個職責?\n61425\t61445\t案。\n77125\t97317\t違反解讀秘書長的說法。」所以我想說秘書長這邊其實說得非常清楚那我們對於法律的見解我想說我大概的想法跟秘書長也是類似所以那個記者的報導可能有所誤解那我想請教一下那依據我們剛剛所說的那國會制定調查權這是違憲嗎\n100246\t128083\t從五八五一路這樣推下因為本來立法院的調查權跟委員八號過五八五號解釋變本來是賦予我們這個普世性的權利嘛那在已經很明確的在解釋文裡面寫得很清楚了是 謝謝民主黨好 那我想請教一下那你知不知道為什麼憲法賦予這個國會的這個調查權這個權利我們一直急著要把它法制化民主黨知道原因嗎\n129861\t157414\t其實我上次也說過因為我們現行的職權行使法本來就不足嘛所以因為當時我88年在處理的時候是只有3到5號解釋只有文件調閱那58號解釋是1993年才有的所以必須要去補強所以國衛的內內規的職權行使法在補強的時候調壓前這一章裡面本來就需要稍微再修正啦\n157834\t181931\t我上次也說過我想我們把一個憲法上面的權利我們把它法制化中間有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要把它的行使的要件把它明文對不對因為我國是仇文法國家我們把它明文下來讓政府讓這些立法委員在質詢的時候他有所依詢嘛那另外還有一個就是\n183106\t198096\t如果你沒有一個法制化的話很容易在運作的時候就造成侵害人民權利甚至洩漏國家機密的風險所以這就是我們為什麼急著把它法制化的一個非常重要的原因\n199980\t219747\t我來談一下就是說其實最近有很多人有很多委員一直講嘛哇你這個調查權這個什麼出來之後或者是你的對於這個呃呃國會國會對於這些受調查者的一些請他來說明或者是一些處罰他說這是老民啊什麼但是我在這邊跟各位報告\n221246\t245657\t其實三權分立國家他們的國會也常常有很多東西是要去詢問到一般民間機關但是他是有個前提他絕對不是說亂七八糟想叫你來就來他一定是調查的事項是涉及到公共利益而且跟國會的職權有關聯性的時候才會做這件事情所以\n246317\t268762\t很多時候是被帶風向,很多時候是危言聳聽,跟人民說哇那你家開麵店我就傳你過來國會這邊處罰,沒有這種事情啦。那你說華航,假設華航今天那個飛機沒有保養好,發生一些事故,我們請他來說明,這種跟公共利益有重大關聯性,這個才有可能。\n269082\t283932\t例如美國國會常常找波音公司去問為什麼沒有人說他們那個叫老民我想說這個部分我想剛剛把它解釋說明一下這是怎麼回事另外就是我覺得\n285850\t314329\t我們在行使這個調查權的時候比如說我的版本以及黨團的版本其實都非常的寫得很清楚就是有關調查權的行使我們是會那個準用到行政程序法以及刑事訴訟法其實為什麼我當時在寫法案的時候我會特別要求這個因為我自己本身是很重視程序正義我要求國會在做調查的時候在做懲罰的時候\n316051\t334526\t不能自以妄為、不能擴權,所以一切要依照、要準用相關的程序法,這樣子才能保障人民的權利,也讓人民有救濟的管道。」這就是為什麼我的版本一直堅持說有一些東西要準用相關的程序法,也就是說在\n335587\t337347\t議員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n359252\t360192\t一、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n379557\t394623\t關於機密外洩的問題,我們剛剛有講到說立法院職權行使的時候也是要保障讓機密不能外洩。你知不知道就是就我們立法院職權行使法還有國家機密保障法都有規範到這個部分。\n396784\t423513\t例如說4至729號他有提到當立法院進行文件調閱的時候對於包含工商秘密的部分其實立法委員他有進到這個保密的義務這個在729號也寫得非常清楚也就是說729號其實他在你符合法定程序之下進到這些保密義務之下其實你去調閱這些私人的工商秘密這個是合憲的\n424113\t449667\t我想大家可以去閱讀729號我想729號跟585號我們在這邊多次的攻防但我要跟各位報告法律的閱讀判決判例的閱讀我從學生時代到現在我就知道一個點不能只截一段來看必須整篇把它看完不能只截頭來看尾不看所以上次行政院副秘書長來這裡我為什麼發脾氣因為他在胡說八道\n450707\t478386\t他亂解485號所以那次我很不高興我認為行政院的高官來這裡不能講那種話你要是說不懂的人來講就算了高官來這裡亂講話帶風向這個我不太能接受這也是國之不信啊走到那個位置的人卻胡說八道這真的不應該尤其行政本來要維持中立他不能玩政治他應該要持平的說如果你今天你依照585號去講我沒有意見但是你不能亂解485號\n480408\t481073\t好,那那個\n482657\t509813\t我想我最後我可能講一個東西也幫大家示意因為今天有直播示意幾個東西第一個我想柯總召他前幾天有講一句話叫做總統會被抓去關我想第一個我們念過憲法的人一定知道我不是迴憲亂政憲法五十二條非常清楚總統有刑事或免權\n510613\t519926\t所以絕對不會發生總統在那邊被問一問抓去關的事情所以不要亂帶風向憲法五十二條再來第二個\n521598\t545643\t有關我們藐視國會罪,其實這個適用上面也跟總統的關聯性沒有那麼大。比如說我的版本,總統他來國情報告他是基於憲政的秩序,跟質詢行政院的規範不同,跟聽證調查權的規範也不同,所以不會發生那種什麼總統來問一問被抓去關這個事情。\n546643\t564722\t這崩馬牛不相及啊不能混在一起講所以我認為是這樣啦每一位我上次有講每一位立委先進我在這邊政治之力是最淺的每一位立委先進我都很敬佩每一個立委都是他的家族他的父母眼中的驕傲但是來這裡我認為不能亂帶風向\n567425\t593273\t今天這個法案這個法律規範即使跟國民黨的邏輯不同我也不敢隨便亂講這是我的堅持所以我對於法律的解釋對於釋制的解釋我不會挑有力的來講我一定是持平看完之後該怎麼說就怎麼說就像我說總統要不要急問急答我的想法跟黨團不一樣那我勇於講出我的想法嘛我還是要講出我對於憲法的\n594033\t608509\t感受是怎麼樣?跟大家不一定一樣但是我必須要勇敢的說出來那一樣我對於柯董昭說總統被抓去關這個我也覺得這個是亂帶風向因為憲法明定總統有刑事豁免權\n609790\t633957\t再來我們說的行政院的這些我們對於行政權的這些監督這些聽證調查權跟總統也無關所以不存在總統抓去關這件事情我在這邊要特別說明我一切依法論法任何人都可以挑戰我的想法好那謝謝在這邊謝謝剛剛把這些我對於這個國會改革的一些想法提出來謝謝各位好謝謝吳朝偉的質詢我非常認同\n","txt":"麻煩秘書長秘書長\n委員好秘書長好我想請教一下秘書長我先提一下我想國會調查權它的一個理念其實我們在法律上面也可以看到有相類似的理念比如說政府資訊公開法或檔案法這些東西其實它主要實現的就是人民資的權利所以我覺得國會調查權因為國會的這些議員都是\n人民選出來的。他一樣是在實踐人民對於知的一個權利。所以我想請教一下秘書長對於大法官皆是以調查權然後獲取資訊能夠讓國會善盡民意機關的職責那秘書長是否同意憲法賦予立法院的這個職責?\n案。\n違反解讀秘書長的說法。」所以我想說秘書長這邊其實說得非常清楚那我們對於法律的見解我想說我大概的想法跟秘書長也是類似所以那個記者的報導可能有所誤解那我想請教一下那依據我們剛剛所說的那國會制定調查權這是違憲嗎\n從五八五一路這樣推下因為本來立法院的調查權跟委員八號過五八五號解釋變本來是賦予我們這個普世性的權利嘛那在已經很明確的在解釋文裡面寫得很清楚了是 謝謝民主黨好 那我想請教一下那你知不知道為什麼憲法賦予這個國會的這個調查權這個權利我們一直急著要把它法制化民主黨知道原因嗎\n其實我上次也說過因為我們現行的職權行使法本來就不足嘛所以因為當時我88年在處理的時候是只有3到5號解釋只有文件調閱那58號解釋是1993年才有的所以必須要去補強所以國衛的內內規的職權行使法在補強的時候調壓前這一章裡面本來就需要稍微再修正啦\n我上次也說過我想我們把一個憲法上面的權利我們把它法制化中間有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要把它的行使的要件把它明文對不對因為我國是仇文法國家我們把它明文下來讓政府讓這些立法委員在質詢的時候他有所依詢嘛那另外還有一個就是\n如果你沒有一個法制化的話很容易在運作的時候就造成侵害人民權利甚至洩漏國家機密的風險所以這就是我們為什麼急著把它法制化的一個非常重要的原因\n我來談一下就是說其實最近有很多人有很多委員一直講嘛哇你這個調查權這個什麼出來之後或者是你的對於這個呃呃國會國會對於這些受調查者的一些請他來說明或者是一些處罰他說這是老民啊什麼但是我在這邊跟各位報告\n其實三權分立國家他們的國會也常常有很多東西是要去詢問到一般民間機關但是他是有個前提他絕對不是說亂七八糟想叫你來就來他一定是調查的事項是涉及到公共利益而且跟國會的職權有關聯性的時候才會做這件事情所以\n很多時候是被帶風向,很多時候是危言聳聽,跟人民說哇那你家開麵店我就傳你過來國會這邊處罰,沒有這種事情啦。那你說華航,假設華航今天那個飛機沒有保養好,發生一些事故,我們請他來說明,這種跟公共利益有重大關聯性,這個才有可能。\n例如美國國會常常找波音公司去問為什麼沒有人說他們那個叫老民我想說這個部分我想剛剛把它解釋說明一下這是怎麼回事另外就是我覺得\n我們在行使這個調查權的時候比如說我的版本以及黨團的版本其實都非常的寫得很清楚就是有關調查權的行使我們是會那個準用到行政程序法以及刑事訴訟法其實為什麼我當時在寫法案的時候我會特別要求這個因為我自己本身是很重視程序正義我要求國會在做調查的時候在做懲罰的時候\n不能自以妄為、不能擴權,所以一切要依照、要準用相關的程序法,這樣子才能保障人民的權利,也讓人民有救濟的管道。」這就是為什麼我的版本一直堅持說有一些東西要準用相關的程序法,也就是說在\n議員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n一、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n關於機密外洩的問題,我們剛剛有講到說立法院職權行使的時候也是要保障讓機密不能外洩。你知不知道就是就我們立法院職權行使法還有國家機密保障法都有規範到這個部分。\n例如說4至729號他有提到當立法院進行文件調閱的時候對於包含工商秘密的部分其實立法委員他有進到這個保密的義務這個在729號也寫得非常清楚也就是說729號其實他在你符合法定程序之下進到這些保密義務之下其實你去調閱這些私人的工商秘密這個是合憲的\n我想大家可以去閱讀729號我想729號跟585號我們在這邊多次的攻防但我要跟各位報告法律的閱讀判決判例的閱讀我從學生時代到現在我就知道一個點不能只截一段來看必須整篇把它看完不能只截頭來看尾不看所以上次行政院副秘書長來這裡我為什麼發脾氣因為他在胡說八道\n他亂解485號所以那次我很不高興我認為行政院的高官來這裡不能講那種話你要是說不懂的人來講就算了高官來這裡亂講話帶風向這個我不太能接受這也是國之不信啊走到那個位置的人卻胡說八道這真的不應該尤其行政本來要維持中立他不能玩政治他應該要持平的說如果你今天你依照585號去講我沒有意見但是你不能亂解485號\n好,那那個\n我想我最後我可能講一個東西也幫大家示意因為今天有直播示意幾個東西第一個我想柯總召他前幾天有講一句話叫做總統會被抓去關我想第一個我們念過憲法的人一定知道我不是迴憲亂政憲法五十二條非常清楚總統有刑事或免權\n所以絕對不會發生總統在那邊被問一問抓去關的事情所以不要亂帶風向憲法五十二條再來第二個\n有關我們藐視國會罪,其實這個適用上面也跟總統的關聯性沒有那麼大。比如說我的版本,總統他來國情報告他是基於憲政的秩序,跟質詢行政院的規範不同,跟聽證調查權的規範也不同,所以不會發生那種什麼總統來問一問被抓去關這個事情。\n這崩馬牛不相及啊不能混在一起講所以我認為是這樣啦每一位我上次有講每一位立委先進我在這邊政治之力是最淺的每一位立委先進我都很敬佩每一個立委都是他的家族他的父母眼中的驕傲但是來這裡我認為不能亂帶風向\n今天這個法案這個法律規範即使跟國民黨的邏輯不同我也不敢隨便亂講這是我的堅持所以我對於法律的解釋對於釋制的解釋我不會挑有力的來講我一定是持平看完之後該怎麼說就怎麼說就像我說總統要不要急問急答我的想法跟黨團不一樣那我勇於講出我的想法嘛我還是要講出我對於憲法的\n感受是怎麼樣?跟大家不一定一樣但是我必須要勇敢的說出來那一樣我對於柯董昭說總統被抓去關這個我也覺得這個是亂帶風向因為憲法明定總統有刑事豁免權\n再來我們說的行政院的這些我們對於行政權的這些監督這些聽證調查權跟總統也無關所以不存在總統抓去關這件事情我在這邊要特別說明我一切依法論法任何人都可以挑戰我的想法好那謝謝在這邊謝謝剛剛把這些我對於這個國會改革的一些想法提出來謝謝各位好謝謝吳朝偉的質詢我非常認同\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.319 --> 00:07.919\n麻煩秘書長秘書長\n\n00:13.396 --> 00:36.365\n委員好秘書長好我想請教一下秘書長我先提一下我想國會調查權它的一個理念其實我們在法律上面也可以看到有相類似的理念比如說政府資訊公開法或檔案法這些東西其實它主要實現的就是人民資的權利所以我覺得國會調查權因為國會的這些議員都是\n\n00:41.167 --> 01:00.204\n人民選出來的。他一樣是在實踐人民對於知的一個權利。所以我想請教一下秘書長對於大法官皆是以調查權然後獲取資訊能夠讓國會善盡民意機關的職責那秘書長是否同意憲法賦予立法院的這個職責?\n\n01:01.425 --> 01:01.445\n案。\n\n01:17.125 --> 01:37.317\n違反解讀秘書長的說法。」所以我想說秘書長這邊其實說得非常清楚那我們對於法律的見解我想說我大概的想法跟秘書長也是類似所以那個記者的報導可能有所誤解那我想請教一下那依據我們剛剛所說的那國會制定調查權這是違憲嗎\n\n01:40.246 --> 02:08.083\n從五八五一路這樣推下因為本來立法院的調查權跟委員八號過五八五號解釋變本來是賦予我們這個普世性的權利嘛那在已經很明確的在解釋文裡面寫得很清楚了是謝謝民主黨好那我想請教一下那你知不知道為什麼憲法賦予這個國會的這個調查權這個權利我們一直急著要把它法制化民主黨知道原因嗎\n\n02:09.861 --> 02:37.414\n其實我上次也說過因為我們現行的職權行使法本來就不足嘛所以因為當時我88年在處理的時候是只有3到5號解釋只有文件調閱那58號解釋是1993年才有的所以必須要去補強所以國衛的內內規的職權行使法在補強的時候調壓前這一章裡面本來就需要稍微再修正啦\n\n02:37.834 --> 03:01.931\n我上次也說過我想我們把一個憲法上面的權利我們把它法制化中間有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要把它的行使的要件把它明文對不對因為我國是仇文法國家我們把它明文下來讓政府讓這些立法委員在質詢的時候他有所依詢嘛那另外還有一個就是\n\n03:03.106 --> 03:18.096\n如果你沒有一個法制化的話很容易在運作的時候就造成侵害人民權利甚至洩漏國家機密的風險所以這就是我們為什麼急著把它法制化的一個非常重要的原因\n\n03:19.980 --> 03:39.747\n我來談一下就是說其實最近有很多人有很多委員一直講嘛哇你這個調查權這個什麼出來之後或者是你的對於這個呃呃國會國會對於這些受調查者的一些請他來說明或者是一些處罰他說這是老民啊什麼但是我在這邊跟各位報告\n\n03:41.246 --> 04:05.657\n其實三權分立國家他們的國會也常常有很多東西是要去詢問到一般民間機關但是他是有個前提他絕對不是說亂七八糟想叫你來就來他一定是調查的事項是涉及到公共利益而且跟國會的職權有關聯性的時候才會做這件事情所以\n\n04:06.317 --> 04:28.762\n很多時候是被帶風向,很多時候是危言聳聽,跟人民說哇那你家開麵店我就傳你過來國會這邊處罰,沒有這種事情啦。那你說華航,假設華航今天那個飛機沒有保養好,發生一些事故,我們請他來說明,這種跟公共利益有重大關聯性,這個才有可能。\n\n04:29.082 --> 04:43.932\n例如美國國會常常找波音公司去問為什麼沒有人說他們那個叫老民我想說這個部分我想剛剛把它解釋說明一下這是怎麼回事另外就是我覺得\n\n04:45.850 --> 05:14.329\n我們在行使這個調查權的時候比如說我的版本以及黨團的版本其實都非常的寫得很清楚就是有關調查權的行使我們是會那個準用到行政程序法以及刑事訴訟法其實為什麼我當時在寫法案的時候我會特別要求這個因為我自己本身是很重視程序正義我要求國會在做調查的時候在做懲罰的時候\n\n05:16.051 --> 05:34.526\n不能自以妄為、不能擴權,所以一切要依照、要準用相關的程序法,這樣子才能保障人民的權利,也讓人民有救濟的管道。」這就是為什麼我的版本一直堅持說有一些東西要準用相關的程序法,也就是說在\n\n05:35.587 --> 05:37.347\n議員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n\n05:59.252 --> 06:00.192\n一、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文\n\n06:19.557 --> 06:34.623\n關於機密外洩的問題,我們剛剛有講到說立法院職權行使的時候也是要保障讓機密不能外洩。你知不知道就是就我們立法院職權行使法還有國家機密保障法都有規範到這個部分。\n\n06:36.784 --> 07:03.513\n例如說4至729號他有提到當立法院進行文件調閱的時候對於包含工商秘密的部分其實立法委員他有進到這個保密的義務這個在729號也寫得非常清楚也就是說729號其實他在你符合法定程序之下進到這些保密義務之下其實你去調閱這些私人的工商秘密這個是合憲的\n\n07:04.113 --> 07:29.667\n我想大家可以去閱讀729號我想729號跟585號我們在這邊多次的攻防但我要跟各位報告法律的閱讀判決判例的閱讀我從學生時代到現在我就知道一個點不能只截一段來看必須整篇把它看完不能只截頭來看尾不看所以上次行政院副秘書長來這裡我為什麼發脾氣因為他在胡說八道\n\n07:30.707 --> 07:58.386\n他亂解485號所以那次我很不高興我認為行政院的高官來這裡不能講那種話你要是說不懂的人來講就算了高官來這裡亂講話帶風向這個我不太能接受這也是國之不信啊走到那個位置的人卻胡說八道這真的不應該尤其行政本來要維持中立他不能玩政治他應該要持平的說如果你今天你依照585號去講我沒有意見但是你不能亂解485號\n\n08:00.408 --> 08:01.073\n好,那那個\n\n08:02.657 --> 08:29.813\n我想我最後我可能講一個東西也幫大家示意因為今天有直播示意幾個東西第一個我想柯總召他前幾天有講一句話叫做總統會被抓去關我想第一個我們念過憲法的人一定知道我不是迴憲亂政憲法五十二條非常清楚總統有刑事或免權\n\n08:30.613 --> 08:39.926\n所以絕對不會發生總統在那邊被問一問抓去關的事情所以不要亂帶風向憲法五十二條再來第二個\n\n08:41.598 --> 09:05.643\n有關我們藐視國會罪,其實這個適用上面也跟總統的關聯性沒有那麼大。比如說我的版本,總統他來國情報告他是基於憲政的秩序,跟質詢行政院的規範不同,跟聽證調查權的規範也不同,所以不會發生那種什麼總統來問一問被抓去關這個事情。\n\n09:06.643 --> 09:24.722\n這崩馬牛不相及啊不能混在一起講所以我認為是這樣啦每一位我上次有講每一位立委先進我在這邊政治之力是最淺的每一位立委先進我都很敬佩每一個立委都是他的家族他的父母眼中的驕傲但是來這裡我認為不能亂帶風向\n\n09:27.425 --> 09:53.273\n今天這個法案這個法律規範即使跟國民黨的邏輯不同我也不敢隨便亂講這是我的堅持所以我對於法律的解釋對於釋制的解釋我不會挑有力的來講我一定是持平看完之後該怎麼說就怎麼說就像我說總統要不要急問急答我的想法跟黨團不一樣那我勇於講出我的想法嘛我還是要講出我對於憲法的\n\n09:54.033 --> 10:08.509\n感受是怎麼樣?跟大家不一定一樣但是我必須要勇敢的說出來那一樣我對於柯董昭說總統被抓去關這個我也覺得這個是亂帶風向因為憲法明定總統有刑事豁免權\n\n10:09.790 --> 10:33.957\n再來我們說的行政院的這些我們對於行政權的這些監督這些聽證調查權跟總統也無關所以不存在總統抓去關這件事情我在這邊要特別說明我一切依法論法任何人都可以挑戰我的想法好那謝謝在這邊謝謝剛剛把這些我對於這個國會改革的一些想法提出來謝謝各位好謝謝吳朝偉的質詢我非常認同\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.319,"end":7.919,"text":"麻煩秘書長秘書長"},{"start":13.396,"end":36.365,"text":"委員好秘書長好我想請教一下秘書長我先提一下我想國會調查權它的一個理念其實我們在法律上面也可以看到有相類似的理念比如說政府資訊公開法或檔案法這些東西其實它主要實現的就是人民資的權利所以我覺得國會調查權因為國會的這些議員都是"},{"start":41.167,"end":60.204,"text":"人民選出來的。他一樣是在實踐人民對於知的一個權利。所以我想請教一下秘書長對於大法官皆是以調查權然後獲取資訊能夠讓國會善盡民意機關的職責那秘書長是否同意憲法賦予立法院的這個職責?"},{"start":61.425,"end":61.445,"text":"案。"},{"start":77.125,"end":97.317,"text":"違反解讀秘書長的說法。」所以我想說秘書長這邊其實說得非常清楚那我們對於法律的見解我想說我大概的想法跟秘書長也是類似所以那個記者的報導可能有所誤解那我想請教一下那依據我們剛剛所說的那國會制定調查權這是違憲嗎"},{"start":100.246,"end":128.083,"text":"從五八五一路這樣推下因為本來立法院的調查權跟委員八號過五八五號解釋變本來是賦予我們這個普世性的權利嘛那在已經很明確的在解釋文裡面寫得很清楚了是 謝謝民主黨好 那我想請教一下那你知不知道為什麼憲法賦予這個國會的這個調查權這個權利我們一直急著要把它法制化民主黨知道原因嗎"},{"start":129.861,"end":157.414,"text":"其實我上次也說過因為我們現行的職權行使法本來就不足嘛所以因為當時我88年在處理的時候是只有3到5號解釋只有文件調閱那58號解釋是1993年才有的所以必須要去補強所以國衛的內內規的職權行使法在補強的時候調壓前這一章裡面本來就需要稍微再修正啦"},{"start":157.834,"end":181.931,"text":"我上次也說過我想我們把一個憲法上面的權利我們把它法制化中間有一個很重要的原因就是因為我們要把它的行使的要件把它明文對不對因為我國是仇文法國家我們把它明文下來讓政府讓這些立法委員在質詢的時候他有所依詢嘛那另外還有一個就是"},{"start":183.106,"end":198.096,"text":"如果你沒有一個法制化的話很容易在運作的時候就造成侵害人民權利甚至洩漏國家機密的風險所以這就是我們為什麼急著把它法制化的一個非常重要的原因"},{"start":199.98,"end":219.747,"text":"我來談一下就是說其實最近有很多人有很多委員一直講嘛哇你這個調查權這個什麼出來之後或者是你的對於這個呃呃國會國會對於這些受調查者的一些請他來說明或者是一些處罰他說這是老民啊什麼但是我在這邊跟各位報告"},{"start":221.246,"end":245.657,"text":"其實三權分立國家他們的國會也常常有很多東西是要去詢問到一般民間機關但是他是有個前提他絕對不是說亂七八糟想叫你來就來他一定是調查的事項是涉及到公共利益而且跟國會的職權有關聯性的時候才會做這件事情所以"},{"start":246.317,"end":268.762,"text":"很多時候是被帶風向,很多時候是危言聳聽,跟人民說哇那你家開麵店我就傳你過來國會這邊處罰,沒有這種事情啦。那你說華航,假設華航今天那個飛機沒有保養好,發生一些事故,我們請他來說明,這種跟公共利益有重大關聯性,這個才有可能。"},{"start":269.082,"end":283.932,"text":"例如美國國會常常找波音公司去問為什麼沒有人說他們那個叫老民我想說這個部分我想剛剛把它解釋說明一下這是怎麼回事另外就是我覺得"},{"start":285.85,"end":314.329,"text":"我們在行使這個調查權的時候比如說我的版本以及黨團的版本其實都非常的寫得很清楚就是有關調查權的行使我們是會那個準用到行政程序法以及刑事訴訟法其實為什麼我當時在寫法案的時候我會特別要求這個因為我自己本身是很重視程序正義我要求國會在做調查的時候在做懲罰的時候"},{"start":316.051,"end":334.526,"text":"不能自以妄為、不能擴權,所以一切要依照、要準用相關的程序法,這樣子才能保障人民的權利,也讓人民有救濟的管道。」這就是為什麼我的版本一直堅持說有一些東西要準用相關的程序法,也就是說在"},{"start":335.587,"end":337.347,"text":"議員呂玲等16人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":359.252,"end":360.192,"text":"一、委員呂玲等17人擬具:「立法院職權行使法部分條之一條文"},{"start":379.557,"end":394.623,"text":"關於機密外洩的問題,我們剛剛有講到說立法院職權行使的時候也是要保障讓機密不能外洩。你知不知道就是就我們立法院職權行使法還有國家機密保障法都有規範到這個部分。"},{"start":396.784,"end":423.513,"text":"例如說4至729號他有提到當立法院進行文件調閱的時候對於包含工商秘密的部分其實立法委員他有進到這個保密的義務這個在729號也寫得非常清楚也就是說729號其實他在你符合法定程序之下進到這些保密義務之下其實你去調閱這些私人的工商秘密這個是合憲的"},{"start":424.113,"end":449.667,"text":"我想大家可以去閱讀729號我想729號跟585號我們在這邊多次的攻防但我要跟各位報告法律的閱讀判決判例的閱讀我從學生時代到現在我就知道一個點不能只截一段來看必須整篇把它看完不能只截頭來看尾不看所以上次行政院副秘書長來這裡我為什麼發脾氣因為他在胡說八道"},{"start":450.707,"end":478.386,"text":"他亂解485號所以那次我很不高興我認為行政院的高官來這裡不能講那種話你要是說不懂的人來講就算了高官來這裡亂講話帶風向這個我不太能接受這也是國之不信啊走到那個位置的人卻胡說八道這真的不應該尤其行政本來要維持中立他不能玩政治他應該要持平的說如果你今天你依照585號去講我沒有意見但是你不能亂解485號"},{"start":480.408,"end":481.073,"text":"好,那那個"},{"start":482.657,"end":509.813,"text":"我想我最後我可能講一個東西也幫大家示意因為今天有直播示意幾個東西第一個我想柯總召他前幾天有講一句話叫做總統會被抓去關我想第一個我們念過憲法的人一定知道我不是迴憲亂政憲法五十二條非常清楚總統有刑事或免權"},{"start":510.613,"end":519.926,"text":"所以絕對不會發生總統在那邊被問一問抓去關的事情所以不要亂帶風向憲法五十二條再來第二個"},{"start":521.598,"end":545.643,"text":"有關我們藐視國會罪,其實這個適用上面也跟總統的關聯性沒有那麼大。比如說我的版本,總統他來國情報告他是基於憲政的秩序,跟質詢行政院的規範不同,跟聽證調查權的規範也不同,所以不會發生那種什麼總統來問一問被抓去關這個事情。"},{"start":546.643,"end":564.722,"text":"這崩馬牛不相及啊不能混在一起講所以我認為是這樣啦每一位我上次有講每一位立委先進我在這邊政治之力是最淺的每一位立委先進我都很敬佩每一個立委都是他的家族他的父母眼中的驕傲但是來這裡我認為不能亂帶風向"},{"start":567.425,"end":593.273,"text":"今天這個法案這個法律規範即使跟國民黨的邏輯不同我也不敢隨便亂講這是我的堅持所以我對於法律的解釋對於釋制的解釋我不會挑有力的來講我一定是持平看完之後該怎麼說就怎麼說就像我說總統要不要急問急答我的想法跟黨團不一樣那我勇於講出我的想法嘛我還是要講出我對於憲法的"},{"start":594.033,"end":608.509,"text":"感受是怎麼樣?跟大家不一定一樣但是我必須要勇敢的說出來那一樣我對於柯董昭說總統被抓去關這個我也覺得這個是亂帶風向因為憲法明定總統有刑事豁免權"},{"start":609.79,"end":633.957,"text":"再來我們說的行政院的這些我們對於行政權的這些監督這些聽證調查權跟總統也無關所以不存在總統抓去關這件事情我在這邊要特別說明我一切依法論法任何人都可以挑戰我的想法好那謝謝在這邊謝謝剛剛把這些我對於這個國會改革的一些想法提出來謝謝各位好謝謝吳朝偉的質詢我非常認同"}]}}}}