{"id":151512,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3361711219b57b8f08497e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2f46c87f22c9e3f6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:49:55 - 09:57:43","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":468,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:57:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:49:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時49分）謝謝主席。有請秘書長跟打詐辦公室。"],["主席：好，請秘書長，還有打詐辦公室主任。"],["李秘書長孟諺：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：早安！今天我們討論預算解凍案，因為是總體業務，所以其實有蠻多都在討論範圍之內，本席先就一個打詐的特別案例跟行政院還有打詐辦公室做一個研討。當然我們都非常同意打擊詐騙應該是各式各樣的手段都要用，然後用盡所有的方法，從嚴地來處理詐騙的問題，我想不分黨派、不分執政在野，大家都同意這樣的事情。當然今天要花時間去檢討打詐執行的成效，大概用這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚，但是我要講一個特殊的案例，這算是在本席選區發生的一個特別的事情，也就是詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人即警示帳戶的存款人，請問分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶、什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎？要不要簡單說明一下？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我是不是請……"],["牛委員煦庭：由主任說明也可以，都可以，沒關係。"],["李秘書長孟諺：因為這個比較細節。"],["李主任憲明：跟委員報告，所謂的警示帳戶就是這個帳戶曾經有過詐騙的行為，包括借給詐騙集團使用。另外，衍生性帳戶就是有其他跟它相關的不同銀行的帳戶，我們都一併列入管制。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是說，警示帳戶的程度是比較高的，衍生性帳戶相對來講沒有那麼嚴格嘛！對不對？大體上沒錯，方向是這樣子喔！我跟你講一個個案，倒楣鬼某A是一位汽車引擎技師，他只是幫客戶B保養汽車，保養汽車當然就要收錢，所以客戶B就把保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶，客戶B本身不管是怎麼樣的原因，他有跟詐騙集團配合，所以他的帳戶跟詐騙集團有金流往來，在受害人報案之後當然就開始查辦，對不對？可是在查辦的時候，因為你要從嚴處置，所以大家的帳戶通通變成所謂的警示帳戶，就因為B跟詐騙有關，他有匯錢給A，他們之間彼此有金流往來，雖然明明就是一筆正常的業務交易，但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶。我只是一個汽車維修員，怎麼那麼倒楣，做了一個生意，因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙，結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶，很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用相關的款項。那遇到這樣的事情，大家當然就循線來處理，採一定的救濟方式，請問主任，他要救濟的時候應該走什麼樣的程序？"],["李主任憲明：如果這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係，金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置，我們也希望在經過查證之後，確實沒有關係的就能夠適度降低對這個帳戶的管制。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你剛剛講的，當然嘛！大家在經過事實的查明之後就予以通融處置，不過你清楚實際上的程序是什麼嗎？"],["李主任憲明：這個細節我比較不瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是申請人要檢附證明文件，然後親赴戶籍地或現住地的警察分局偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委，就是到警察機關去尋求幫忙，警察方面相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設狀況的時候，就要發公文書給金融機構解除警示，然後還要註明解除帳號、原因跟代號，然後受通報的金融機構還要要求檢附民眾解除警示帳戶申請書，所以程序其實非常的複雜。當然打詐的方向是好的，但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士，我覺得這部分政府機關對行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討，看看有沒有比較簡單、便民的方式可以來處理，因為目前可以通報警示帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位，法院可以，檢察署可以，司法警察機關也可以，一旦列為警示帳戶，有的時候會長達兩年，然後剛剛我講的這些行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的。那我現在就要問了，理論上按照法理來講，警示帳戶的實質效果其實跟扣押基本上是相同的，對不對？就完全限制了這個財產權嘛！對不對？"],["李主任憲明：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是一般的扣押如果從法律上角度來講，就要有令狀原則，也就是說法院核發搜索票等等，你才有辦法去做扣押的行為，然而警示帳戶這個封鎖的動作顯然比扣押簡單，可是達成了一樣的效果，那我現在就要問，政府機關針對這樣的狀況怎麼在維持打詐強度的情況之下避免牽連無辜？有沒有一些檢討跟改善的方向？"],["李主任憲明：謝謝委員的指教，我們對於打詐當然要嚴予懲處，但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的，我們會從輕來發落，就是如果能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係，我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，因為今天談的層級、今天來的都是行政院的長官，我想你們有跨部會所以瞭解內政部警政的作為、瞭解金管會或怎麼樣，所以應該要召開一個協商的平臺，讓這種案例可以被妥善處理，也就是說，也許是用衍生管制帳戶的方式，解凍的時候，相對來講，它的程序也好、標準也好，是相對寬鬆的，速度要加快啦！其實一般的人民會願意基於打擊詐騙去配合警方的調查，大家都會配合啦！但是如果他可以很明確地證明清白，我希望在行政流程的過程之中，程序可以不要那麼繁瑣，他又要跑警察局，又要跑銀行，中間還要等公文往返，我覺得這個速度常常是很慢的，你們在經過商量跟討論之後是不是能夠有一個機制，比如說有一個時間？至少在遇到這樣的事情時有一個明確的時間依據，也就是說，我開始提出申請之後7天或十幾天，我可以在快速的行政流程的情況之下，我可以讓它比較簡單的來解凍。至少這個汽車維修員為了要配合政府機關進行調查，我可能有一個禮拜、兩個禮拜，也許最多一個月的時間，我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用，但是我可以很明確地知道什麼時候我就可以用，至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做生意的時候不會受到太多的衝擊。現在就是在你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候，那會沒完沒了，我不知道這什麼時候才會解凍，很有可能就會影響到很多事情，我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了。"],["李主任憲明：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這部分什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明？"],["李主任憲明：我們會請金管會來研議，我覺得只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係，就不應該受這麼嚴格的管控，那這個也影響到個人的權利還有整體經濟的發展。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席完全贊成打擊詐騙的行為，附帶效果就是衝擊民眾的部分，救濟的制度要相對完備，所以你們行政院要多久的時間研商一套比較明確的SOP？"],["李主任憲明：好，我們在一個月之內。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月之內好不好？"],["李主任憲明：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：研商一個完整的SOP，以這個救濟的形式讓不相干的人不要因為這樣而受到衝擊，但是打詐的力道當然還是一點都不能輕、不能減下來，可以嗎？"],["李主任憲明：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席本來還有準備另外一個租屋市場的題目，但是因為禮拜三我們還有別的解凍案，那我們就在內政部在的時候來做討論。我們就針對打詐這個題目請辦公室還有行政院這邊加強處理，我們一個月之後繼續追蹤，可以嗎？"],["李主任憲明：好，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。現在請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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\"但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼多倒霉做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 134.073, \"end\": 134.153, \"score\": 0.768}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 134.153, \"end\": 134.253, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 134.253, \"end\": 134.353, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 134.353, \"end\": 134.473, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 134.473, \"end\": 134.593, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 134.593, \"end\": 134.673, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 134.673, \"end\": 134.913, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"筆\"}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 134.913, \"end\": 135.074, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"常\", \"start\": 135.074, \"end\": 135.214, \"score\": 0.757}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 135.214, \"end\": 135.634, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"交\", 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{\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 446.531, \"end\": 446.572, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 446.572, \"end\": 446.592, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,290 --> 00:00:01,953\n打造辦公室主任\n\n2\n00:00:08,862 --> 00:00:32,782\n今天因為討論這個預算凍結案嘛那因為是總體業務啦所以其實蠻多都在討論範圍之內所以本席先就打詐的一個特別的案例跟這個行政院跟打詐辦公室做一個研討這個當然啦我們都非常同意就是說打擊詐騙你應該要各式各樣的手段都要用然後用盡所有的方法重演來處理這個詐騙的問題這我想大家不分黨派不分\n\n3\n00:00:33,442 --> 00:00:57,324\n指正在野大家都同意這樣的事情當然你今天花時間去檢討說打詐執行的成效大概這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚但是我要講一個特殊的案例這算是本席選區發生的一個特別的事情也就是說詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人叫做警示帳戶的存款人這分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶嗎?什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎?要不要簡單說明一下\n\n4\n00:00:59,975 --> 00:01:26,261\n我是不是請...主任說明可以,都可以沒關係比較細節好,跟委員報告所謂的警示賬戶說就是在這個賬戶曾經有過這個詐騙的行為包括這個借用的這個詐騙借用詐騙集團的使用那另外衍生性賬戶就是說那有其他的跟他相關的其他的不同的這個銀行我們都一併列入管制\n\n5\n00:01:26,843 --> 00:01:49,998\n也就是說解釋帳戶的程度是比較高的嘛,衍生性相對來講它沒有那麼嚴格嘛,對不對?大局長沒錯,方向是這樣子喔。我覺得你講一個個案喔,這個倒霉鬼啊,某A啊,是一位汽車引擎技師,他只是幫客戶B啊,保養汽車,然後收,當然就保養汽車收錢嘛,所以這客戶B就把這個保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶。好,這個客戶B啊,他本身是\n\n6\n00:01:50,879 --> 00:01:52,880\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案\n\n7\n00:02:14,073 --> 00:02:40,767\n但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼多倒霉做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序\n\n8\n00:02:42,253 --> 00:03:06,986\n我們同意他如果說這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係那金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置那我們也希望說這個經過查證之後確實沒有關係的所以能夠適度降低的這個賬戶的管制對就是說你剛剛講說當然嘛就是大家會經過適時的查明之後就予以通融處置不過實際上的程序是什麼你清楚嗎\n\n9\n00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:25,429\n這個細節我比較不瞭解這個申請人要檢附文件親附這個設定警示戶籍地或限住地的警察分局、偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委到警察機關去尋求這個幫忙警察就相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設的狀況的時候他要發公文書\n\n10\n00:03:28,371 --> 00:03:28,431\n凍結書面報告案\n\n11\n00:03:41,877 --> 00:03:53,327\n這就是程序其實非常複雜那其實當然打仗的方向是好的但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士我覺得這部分政府機關這個行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討看看有沒有比較簡單辨明的一個方式來處理\n\n12\n00:03:59,272 --> 00:04:08,762\n因為目前可以通報警視帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位法院可以、檢察署可以、司法警察機關也可以那一旦列為警視帳戶的時候這個有的時候長達兩年然後剛剛我講的這個行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的\n\n13\n00:04:15,009 --> 00:04:17,751\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n\n14\n00:04:34,082 --> 00:04:37,086\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n\n15\n00:04:50,911 --> 00:05:14,997\n謝謝委員的指教我們對於這個打詐當然要嚴以懲處但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的我們會從輕來發落就是對於這一些如果說能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明這個資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係的話那我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬今天談的成績當然今天來都是行政院的長官\n\n16\n00:05:17,378 --> 00:05:32,312\n所以說我想你們對跨部也瞭解內政部警政的作為瞭解金管會或怎麼樣所以應該要召開一個這個協商的一個平台讓這種案例它是可以被妥善處理的也就是說也許是用衍生管制的方式就是解凍的時候它相對來講它的這個程序也好標準也好是相對寬鬆的\n\n17\n00:05:35,615 --> 00:06:00,353\n速度要加快啦其實一般的人民會願意配合基於打擊詐騙去配合這個警方的調查大家都會配合啦但是如果他可以很明確的證明清白的時候我希望在行政流程的過程之中他可以不要那麼繁瑣嘛他又要跑警察又要跑警察局又要跑銀行中間還要等他的公文往返這個速度來講我覺得常常是很慢的是不是能夠有一個機制你們要經過商量跟討論之後比如說有一個時間啦\n\n18\n00:06:01,454 --> 00:06:03,056\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告\n\n19\n00:06:18,698 --> 00:06:39,174\n一個禮拜兩個禮拜也許最多一個月的時間我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用但是我至少很明確的知道什麼時候我可以用嘛至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做他的生意的時候他不會受到太多的衝擊現在就是你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候那沒完沒了我不知道這個什麼時候才會解凍那很有可能他就會影響到很多事情那我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了\n\n20\n00:06:41,436 --> 00:06:47,279\n所以這部分是什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明我們會請金管會來研議我覺得這個只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係的不應該受這個這麼嚴格的管控那這個也影響到\n\n21\n00:06:54,670 --> 00:06:58,292\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n\n22\n00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:26,592\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n290\t1953\t打造辦公室主任\n8862\t32782\t今天因為討論這個預算凍結案嘛那因為是總體業務啦所以其實蠻多都在討論範圍之內所以本席先就打詐的一個特別的案例跟這個行政院跟打詐辦公室做一個研討這個當然啦我們都非常同意就是說打擊詐騙你應該要各式各樣的手段都要用然後用盡所有的方法重演來處理這個詐騙的問題這我想大家不分黨派不分\n33442\t57324\t指正在野大家都同意這樣的事情當然你今天花時間去檢討說打詐執行的成效大概這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚但是我要講一個特殊的案例這算是本席選區發生的一個特別的事情也就是說詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人叫做警示帳戶的存款人這分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶嗎?什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎?要不要簡單說明一下\n59975\t86261\t我是不是請...主任說明可以,都可以沒關係比較細節好,跟委員報告所謂的警示賬戶說就是在這個賬戶曾經有過這個詐騙的行為包括這個借用的這個詐騙借用詐騙集團的使用那另外衍生性賬戶就是說那有其他的跟他相關的其他的不同的這個銀行我們都一併列入管制\n86843\t109998\t也就是說解釋帳戶的程度是比較高的嘛,衍生性相對來講它沒有那麼嚴格嘛,對不對?大局長沒錯,方向是這樣子喔。我覺得你講一個個案喔,這個倒霉鬼啊,某A啊,是一位汽車引擎技師,他只是幫客戶B啊,保養汽車,然後收,當然就保養汽車收錢嘛,所以這客戶B就把這個保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶。好,這個客戶B啊,他本身是\n110879\t112880\t三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案\n134073\t160767\t但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼多倒霉做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序\n162253\t186986\t我們同意他如果說這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係那金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置那我們也希望說這個經過查證之後確實沒有關係的所以能夠適度降低的這個賬戶的管制對就是說你剛剛講說當然嘛就是大家會經過適時的查明之後就予以通融處置不過實際上的程序是什麼你清楚嗎\n188760\t205429\t這個細節我比較不瞭解這個申請人要檢附文件親附這個設定警示戶籍地或限住地的警察分局、偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委到警察機關去尋求這個幫忙警察就相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設的狀況的時候他要發公文書\n208371\t208431\t凍結書面報告案\n221877\t233327\t這就是程序其實非常複雜那其實當然打仗的方向是好的但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士我覺得這部分政府機關這個行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討看看有沒有比較簡單辨明的一個方式來處理\n239272\t248762\t因為目前可以通報警視帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位法院可以、檢察署可以、司法警察機關也可以那一旦列為警視帳戶的時候這個有的時候長達兩年然後剛剛我講的這個行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的\n255009\t257751\t二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n274082\t277086\t二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n290911\t314997\t謝謝委員的指教我們對於這個打詐當然要嚴以懲處但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的我們會從輕來發落就是對於這一些如果說能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明這個資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係的話那我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬今天談的成績當然今天來都是行政院的長官\n317378\t332312\t所以說我想你們對跨部也瞭解內政部警政的作為瞭解金管會或怎麼樣所以應該要召開一個這個協商的一個平台讓這種案例它是可以被妥善處理的也就是說也許是用衍生管制的方式就是解凍的時候它相對來講它的這個程序也好標準也好是相對寬鬆的\n335615\t360353\t速度要加快啦其實一般的人民會願意配合基於打擊詐騙去配合這個警方的調查大家都會配合啦但是如果他可以很明確的證明清白的時候我希望在行政流程的過程之中他可以不要那麼繁瑣嘛他又要跑警察又要跑警察局又要跑銀行中間還要等他的公文往返這個速度來講我覺得常常是很慢的是不是能夠有一個機制你們要經過商量跟討論之後比如說有一個時間啦\n361454\t363056\t二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告\n378698\t399174\t一個禮拜兩個禮拜也許最多一個月的時間我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用但是我至少很明確的知道什麼時候我可以用嘛至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做他的生意的時候他不會受到太多的衝擊現在就是你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候那沒完沒了我不知道這個什麼時候才會解凍那很有可能他就會影響到很多事情那我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了\n401436\t407279\t所以這部分是什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明我們會請金管會來研議我覺得這個只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係的不應該受這個這麼嚴格的管控那這個也影響到\n414670\t418292\t二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n445030\t446592\t二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n","txt":"打造辦公室主任\n今天因為討論這個預算凍結案嘛那因為是總體業務啦所以其實蠻多都在討論範圍之內所以本席先就打詐的一個特別的案例跟這個行政院跟打詐辦公室做一個研討這個當然啦我們都非常同意就是說打擊詐騙你應該要各式各樣的手段都要用然後用盡所有的方法重演來處理這個詐騙的問題這我想大家不分黨派不分\n指正在野大家都同意這樣的事情當然你今天花時間去檢討說打詐執行的成效大概這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚但是我要講一個特殊的案例這算是本席選區發生的一個特別的事情也就是說詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人叫做警示帳戶的存款人這分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶嗎?什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎?要不要簡單說明一下\n我是不是請...主任說明可以,都可以沒關係比較細節好,跟委員報告所謂的警示賬戶說就是在這個賬戶曾經有過這個詐騙的行為包括這個借用的這個詐騙借用詐騙集團的使用那另外衍生性賬戶就是說那有其他的跟他相關的其他的不同的這個銀行我們都一併列入管制\n也就是說解釋帳戶的程度是比較高的嘛,衍生性相對來講它沒有那麼嚴格嘛,對不對?大局長沒錯,方向是這樣子喔。我覺得你講一個個案喔,這個倒霉鬼啊,某A啊,是一位汽車引擎技師,他只是幫客戶B啊,保養汽車,然後收,當然就保養汽車收錢嘛,所以這客戶B就把這個保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶。好,這個客戶B啊,他本身是\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案\n但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼多倒霉做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序\n我們同意他如果說這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係那金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置那我們也希望說這個經過查證之後確實沒有關係的所以能夠適度降低的這個賬戶的管制對就是說你剛剛講說當然嘛就是大家會經過適時的查明之後就予以通融處置不過實際上的程序是什麼你清楚嗎\n這個細節我比較不瞭解這個申請人要檢附文件親附這個設定警示戶籍地或限住地的警察分局、偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委到警察機關去尋求這個幫忙警察就相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設的狀況的時候他要發公文書\n凍結書面報告案\n這就是程序其實非常複雜那其實當然打仗的方向是好的但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士我覺得這部分政府機關這個行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討看看有沒有比較簡單辨明的一個方式來處理\n因為目前可以通報警視帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位法院可以、檢察署可以、司法警察機關也可以那一旦列為警視帳戶的時候這個有的時候長達兩年然後剛剛我講的這個行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n謝謝委員的指教我們對於這個打詐當然要嚴以懲處但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的我們會從輕來發落就是對於這一些如果說能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明這個資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係的話那我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬今天談的成績當然今天來都是行政院的長官\n所以說我想你們對跨部也瞭解內政部警政的作為瞭解金管會或怎麼樣所以應該要召開一個這個協商的一個平台讓這種案例它是可以被妥善處理的也就是說也許是用衍生管制的方式就是解凍的時候它相對來講它的這個程序也好標準也好是相對寬鬆的\n速度要加快啦其實一般的人民會願意配合基於打擊詐騙去配合這個警方的調查大家都會配合啦但是如果他可以很明確的證明清白的時候我希望在行政流程的過程之中他可以不要那麼繁瑣嘛他又要跑警察又要跑警察局又要跑銀行中間還要等他的公文往返這個速度來講我覺得常常是很慢的是不是能夠有一個機制你們要經過商量跟討論之後比如說有一個時間啦\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告\n一個禮拜兩個禮拜也許最多一個月的時間我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用但是我至少很明確的知道什麼時候我可以用嘛至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做他的生意的時候他不會受到太多的衝擊現在就是你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候那沒完沒了我不知道這個什麼時候才會解凍那很有可能他就會影響到很多事情那我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了\n所以這部分是什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明我們會請金管會來研議我覺得這個只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係的不應該受這個這麼嚴格的管控那這個也影響到\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.290 --> 00:01.953\n打造辦公室主任\n\n00:08.862 --> 00:32.782\n今天因為討論這個預算凍結案嘛那因為是總體業務啦所以其實蠻多都在討論範圍之內所以本席先就打詐的一個特別的案例跟這個行政院跟打詐辦公室做一個研討這個當然啦我們都非常同意就是說打擊詐騙你應該要各式各樣的手段都要用然後用盡所有的方法重演來處理這個詐騙的問題這我想大家不分黨派不分\n\n00:33.442 --> 00:57.324\n指正在野大家都同意這樣的事情當然你今天花時間去檢討說打詐執行的成效大概這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚但是我要講一個特殊的案例這算是本席選區發生的一個特別的事情也就是說詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人叫做警示帳戶的存款人這分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶嗎?什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎?要不要簡單說明一下\n\n00:59.975 --> 01:26.261\n我是不是請...主任說明可以,都可以沒關係比較細節好,跟委員報告所謂的警示賬戶說就是在這個賬戶曾經有過這個詐騙的行為包括這個借用的這個詐騙借用詐騙集團的使用那另外衍生性賬戶就是說那有其他的跟他相關的其他的不同的這個銀行我們都一併列入管制\n\n01:26.843 --> 01:49.998\n也就是說解釋帳戶的程度是比較高的嘛,衍生性相對來講它沒有那麼嚴格嘛,對不對?大局長沒錯,方向是這樣子喔。我覺得你講一個個案喔,這個倒霉鬼啊,某A啊,是一位汽車引擎技師,他只是幫客戶B啊,保養汽車,然後收,當然就保養汽車收錢嘛,所以這客戶B就把這個保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶。好,這個客戶B啊,他本身是\n\n01:50.879 --> 01:52.880\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案\n\n02:14.073 --> 02:40.767\n但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼多倒霉做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序\n\n02:42.253 --> 03:06.986\n我們同意他如果說這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係那金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置那我們也希望說這個經過查證之後確實沒有關係的所以能夠適度降低的這個賬戶的管制對就是說你剛剛講說當然嘛就是大家會經過適時的查明之後就予以通融處置不過實際上的程序是什麼你清楚嗎\n\n03:08.760 --> 03:25.429\n這個細節我比較不瞭解這個申請人要檢附文件親附這個設定警示戶籍地或限住地的警察分局、偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委到警察機關去尋求這個幫忙警察就相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設的狀況的時候他要發公文書\n\n03:28.371 --> 03:28.431\n凍結書面報告案\n\n03:41.877 --> 03:53.327\n這就是程序其實非常複雜那其實當然打仗的方向是好的但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士我覺得這部分政府機關這個行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討看看有沒有比較簡單辨明的一個方式來處理\n\n03:59.272 --> 04:08.762\n因為目前可以通報警視帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位法院可以、檢察署可以、司法警察機關也可以那一旦列為警視帳戶的時候這個有的時候長達兩年然後剛剛我講的這個行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的\n\n04:15.009 --> 04:17.751\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n\n04:34.082 --> 04:37.086\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n\n04:50.911 --> 05:14.997\n謝謝委員的指教我們對於這個打詐當然要嚴以懲處但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的我們會從輕來發落就是對於這一些如果說能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明這個資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係的話那我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬今天談的成績當然今天來都是行政院的長官\n\n05:17.378 --> 05:32.312\n所以說我想你們對跨部也瞭解內政部警政的作為瞭解金管會或怎麼樣所以應該要召開一個這個協商的一個平台讓這種案例它是可以被妥善處理的也就是說也許是用衍生管制的方式就是解凍的時候它相對來講它的這個程序也好標準也好是相對寬鬆的\n\n05:35.615 --> 06:00.353\n速度要加快啦其實一般的人民會願意配合基於打擊詐騙去配合這個警方的調查大家都會配合啦但是如果他可以很明確的證明清白的時候我希望在行政流程的過程之中他可以不要那麼繁瑣嘛他又要跑警察又要跑警察局又要跑銀行中間還要等他的公文往返這個速度來講我覺得常常是很慢的是不是能夠有一個機制你們要經過商量跟討論之後比如說有一個時間啦\n\n06:01.454 --> 06:03.056\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告\n\n06:18.698 --> 06:39.174\n一個禮拜兩個禮拜也許最多一個月的時間我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用但是我至少很明確的知道什麼時候我可以用嘛至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做他的生意的時候他不會受到太多的衝擊現在就是你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候那沒完沒了我不知道這個什麼時候才會解凍那很有可能他就會影響到很多事情那我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了\n\n06:41.436 --> 06:47.279\n所以這部分是什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明我們會請金管會來研議我覺得這個只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係的不應該受這個這麼嚴格的管控那這個也影響到\n\n06:54.670 --> 06:58.292\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon\n\n07:25.030 --> 07:26.592\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.29,"end":1.953,"text":"打造辦公室主任"},{"start":8.862,"end":32.782,"text":"今天因為討論這個預算凍結案嘛那因為是總體業務啦所以其實蠻多都在討論範圍之內所以本席先就打詐的一個特別的案例跟這個行政院跟打詐辦公室做一個研討這個當然啦我們都非常同意就是說打擊詐騙你應該要各式各樣的手段都要用然後用盡所有的方法重演來處理這個詐騙的問題這我想大家不分黨派不分"},{"start":33.442,"end":57.324,"text":"指正在野大家都同意這樣的事情當然你今天花時間去檢討說打詐執行的成效大概這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚但是我要講一個特殊的案例這算是本席選區發生的一個特別的事情也就是說詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人叫做警示帳戶的存款人這分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶嗎?什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎?要不要簡單說明一下"},{"start":59.975,"end":86.261,"text":"我是不是請...主任說明可以,都可以沒關係比較細節好,跟委員報告所謂的警示賬戶說就是在這個賬戶曾經有過這個詐騙的行為包括這個借用的這個詐騙借用詐騙集團的使用那另外衍生性賬戶就是說那有其他的跟他相關的其他的不同的這個銀行我們都一併列入管制"},{"start":86.843,"end":109.998,"text":"也就是說解釋帳戶的程度是比較高的嘛,衍生性相對來講它沒有那麼嚴格嘛,對不對?大局長沒錯,方向是這樣子喔。我覺得你講一個個案喔,這個倒霉鬼啊,某A啊,是一位汽車引擎技師,他只是幫客戶B啊,保養汽車,然後收,當然就保養汽車收錢嘛,所以這客戶B就把這個保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶。好,這個客戶B啊,他本身是"},{"start":110.879,"end":112.88,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":134.073,"end":160.767,"text":"但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼多倒霉做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序"},{"start":162.253,"end":186.986,"text":"我們同意他如果說這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係那金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置那我們也希望說這個經過查證之後確實沒有關係的所以能夠適度降低的這個賬戶的管制對就是說你剛剛講說當然嘛就是大家會經過適時的查明之後就予以通融處置不過實際上的程序是什麼你清楚嗎"},{"start":188.76,"end":205.429,"text":"這個細節我比較不瞭解這個申請人要檢附文件親附這個設定警示戶籍地或限住地的警察分局、偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委到警察機關去尋求這個幫忙警察就相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設的狀況的時候他要發公文書"},{"start":208.371,"end":208.431,"text":"凍結書面報告案"},{"start":221.877,"end":233.327,"text":"這就是程序其實非常複雜那其實當然打仗的方向是好的但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士我覺得這部分政府機關這個行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討看看有沒有比較簡單辨明的一個方式來處理"},{"start":239.272,"end":248.762,"text":"因為目前可以通報警視帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位法院可以、檢察署可以、司法警察機關也可以那一旦列為警視帳戶的時候這個有的時候長達兩年然後剛剛我講的這個行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的"},{"start":255.009,"end":257.751,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":274.082,"end":277.086,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":290.911,"end":314.997,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我們對於這個打詐當然要嚴以懲處但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的我們會從輕來發落就是對於這一些如果說能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明這個資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係的話那我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬今天談的成績當然今天來都是行政院的長官"},{"start":317.378,"end":332.312,"text":"所以說我想你們對跨部也瞭解內政部警政的作為瞭解金管會或怎麼樣所以應該要召開一個這個協商的一個平台讓這種案例它是可以被妥善處理的也就是說也許是用衍生管制的方式就是解凍的時候它相對來講它的這個程序也好標準也好是相對寬鬆的"},{"start":335.615,"end":360.353,"text":"速度要加快啦其實一般的人民會願意配合基於打擊詐騙去配合這個警方的調查大家都會配合啦但是如果他可以很明確的證明清白的時候我希望在行政流程的過程之中他可以不要那麼繁瑣嘛他又要跑警察又要跑警察局又要跑銀行中間還要等他的公文往返這個速度來講我覺得常常是很慢的是不是能夠有一個機制你們要經過商量跟討論之後比如說有一個時間啦"},{"start":361.454,"end":363.056,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":378.698,"end":399.174,"text":"一個禮拜兩個禮拜也許最多一個月的時間我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用但是我至少很明確的知道什麼時候我可以用嘛至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做他的生意的時候他不會受到太多的衝擊現在就是你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候那沒完沒了我不知道這個什麼時候才會解凍那很有可能他就會影響到很多事情那我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了"},{"start":401.436,"end":407.279,"text":"所以這部分是什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明我們會請金管會來研議我覺得這個只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係的不應該受這個這麼嚴格的管控那這個也影響到"},{"start":414.67,"end":418.292,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":445.03,"end":446.592,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"}]}}}}