{"id":151555,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3360adde0c3cd318952cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2ad8eac70585468305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:25:56 - 11:42:26","影片長度":"00:16:30","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":990,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:42:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:25:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時26分）主席、各位大家午安，繼續請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，移動汽機車的噪音污染其實是很嚴重的，2021年有一則新聞說新北市6天執法開罰了1,500件，6天就取締了1,500件！當然我們知道這個設備必須要有測速、有聲音還必須照相，所以它是很複雜的一套機器。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：我們也知道新北市目前分配到36套，像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定設置在中山一路，可是你知道，我是受害者，曾經在我們蘆洲，不曉得有人是不是超跑的愛用者，他很準時在半夜十二點以後才開出門，好像好的車沒有開出去飆一下不太像超跑，所以他半夜十二點以後才開出去飆，我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路，是還有一段距離的大條四線道馬路……"],["薛部長富盛：但是你們都聽得到。"],["林委員淑芬：不是我們的社區，不是我們的街廓，整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜十二點以後有人開超跑在飆車，其實在那裡，你說臨時發現了，你沒有設定固定的，你用移動的聲音照相設備來，結果已經跑掉了……"],["薛部長富盛：來不及，跑了。"],["林委員淑芬：這種狀況，第一個不是患不均而已，也患寡。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：這麼多年來，你投資三十億元，你說噪音對人體身心健康的影響很大，可是這麼多年只有投資30億元，其實是遠遠不足的，老實說，真的造成我們很大的困擾，我們就是受害者，所以其實從量來講、從法制面，你對噪音的規範，夜間白天的規範不一，這個當然要有落差，早期的人會說「地靈輕」，晚上夜深人靜的30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。法制面也要檢討，執行面也要檢討，設備有法也沒用！你沒有測速、測音，還有照相設備，沒用！工欲善其事，必先利其器，我想部長你剛才有回應了。","但我今天主要不談這個，我談空污，有關深坑的大火，就是7,000顆鋰電池的倉庫，在臺北市區、在新北市區，其實造成很大的影響，後來我們蘆洲、五股的隔壁叫林口，林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩、三天，後來又是淡水的泡棉廠，後來又有樹林的木材廠，泡棉跟塑膠廠的風險危害對我們來講，我們很直覺的反應就是應該有一定的程度，可是我今天要講的是從深坑這個案例，因為它受到非常高大且影響層面很廣、關注度很高的狀況，我先來討論。當時7,000顆鋰電池這樣堆置燃燒的時候，你們木柵空品測站的資料顯示，到了隔一天，你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他測站明顯升高，但是當時雙北的環保局都表示，空氣品質仍在普通範圍內，有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內，這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受有很大的落差。","我今天要講的是法制面問題，還有執行面，法制面問題就是對於空污防制法，我們於2018年修法時在裡面放了一個很重要的概念，也就是把環境知情權放到空污防制裡面。因為我們當時在空污防制法第三十三條放了第一項，公私場所的固定污染源因突發事故，大量排放空污時，負責人應採取緊急應變措施，而且還有限時間，最慢1個小時內要通知直轄市或縣（市）主管機關。第二，前項情形，直轄市、縣（市）主管機關政府要令公私場所採取必要措施，或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外，還要發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施。其實我們當初修法是已經授權給你們了，也授權給地方政府了，發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施，第三十三條第四項還規定惡化警告發布通知方式和因應措施，還有突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載內容、執行辦法由中央主管機關定之。你們當然就定出來了，你們定出了「空氣污染突發事故緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知作業辦法」，這是你們的子法。","可惜的是你們的子法裡面講到經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防制專責單位或人員的公私場所，你們限縮了，你們把這些公私場所限縮在你們所指定公告的這些範圍，不管是行業、製程或物質，才需要設置防制單位。固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製程、儲槽、產品種類，你們要求使用附表所列的空污突發事故管制物質，並應擬定空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫，空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切執行。你們有要求應變計畫、警告措施等等，但是限縮在於你們指定的公告業別、製程或產業，或是我剛剛講的物質，你們限縮了，我為什麼講這個？你們應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡，但是以深坑7,000顆鋰電池大火來講，這個影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面，它是不是你們公告應該要設置的範圍，是不是在你們緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知作業應提出的廠商裡面，它是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，事實上它不是，因為深坑的案子事實上是一個產品倉庫。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！我知道是它的倉庫，所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內，而空污防制法第三十三條並沒有限縮在你們所管制的製程，你們所管制的行業別裡面，沒有！我們的母法裡面是規定要有環境知情權，不管哪一種污染源突發事故，大量排放空污時，負責人要採取緊急應變措施，最慢1個小時要通報給地方主管機關，公私場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作，而且要發布惡化警報，我們的母法是長這樣子，但是你的辦法限縮了。"],["薛部長富盛：我們來檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：你們限縮了，但是像深坑這個案子，你們也不是沒有辦法，你們有一個空污突發事故通報與緊急應變標準作業流程的SOP，但是這個SOP只是一個內規，也沒有法律明文規定，也不是辦法，是吧？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，事實上在深坑這個案子發生之後，後續幾個案子的情況處理，地方政府環保局馬上就會跟民眾反映，深坑這個案子事實上的確造成很大民怨。"],["林委員淑芬：事實上，深坑這個案子我們非常不能接受，你知道原因在哪裡嗎？因為大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北，但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛，我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查得出來？"],["薛部長富盛：一個禮拜。"],["林委員淑芬：那他怎麼可能馬上第一時間說沒有測到戴奧辛，要一個禮拜才檢查得出來，他怎麼可以這樣子？為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員用手持式的測試器，在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗，現場風速只有2.3M/S，還有電子鼻的讀值是零，他們說多功能氣體偵測儀偵測起來都是零，檢測的項目只有什麼，部長知道嗎？只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體。手持式偵測器的數值都是零，因為它偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體，當然就沒有測到啊！但是深坑大火燒掉的是電話、耳機，最多的是鋰電池，而這裡面有很多的聚氯乙烯（PVC）或是銅，很可能產生戴奧辛和氟化氫，而他們用手持式的偵測器在案發現場檢測，這樣的方法是對的嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上是太過武斷，用手持式的去測說確定沒有戴奧辛。"],["林委員淑芬：那一台手持式的就沒有戴奧辛檢測的項目，戴奧辛必須在實驗室進行化驗，沒有辦法用這一台機器馬上檢測，所以第一時間市長告訴我們現場沒有戴奧辛是根本連測都沒測就隨便說說。我要講的是制度面，針對複合性的火災災害，你們應該要訂出監測方法，到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的，你們要規範吧？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：你是要在靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度，持手持式的在火場旁邊測，還是應該在火場下風處、上風處，不同的距離會有數值的差異，污染物的濃度包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、戴奧辛、重金屬、揮發性有機氣體等，要進行定性分析，還有各種物質的濃度監測，然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍。而且最重要的是，你們都只是在靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方測，根本不具代表性，它可能還必須監測高空濃度，所以高空濃度的測站要怎麼設，測站的內容又是什麼？讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了，難怪臺北市市長也在生氣。","存在環境當中的污染物質是什麼、濃度多少，你要真實揭露環境的資訊，而且要把這個資訊完整地傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾，當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候，民眾要採取防護措施，減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害，這才是環境治理最重要的危害預警責任。而我今天要告訴你，以深坑的大火為例，在附近300公尺就有3間安養中心和護理之家，這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家，不要忘記，在你們的SOP裡面還有一個危害評估，但是你們的危害評估沒有任何規範，到底在幾個小時要做出危害評估的規範，這些老人家或是學校的學生都是靠我是深坑人、我是臺北人、我是哪裡人，靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政，然後來採取應變措施，這太離譜了！"],["主席：林委員，因為時間的關係，等一下牛煦庭委員質詢完要處理臨時提案。"],["林委員淑芬：可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完，因為他真的太離譜啦！"],["主席：對，我們請部長會後……"],["林委員淑芬：我們重大空污的定義跟量化指標，部長你要好好地檢討，第一線環保局人員根本沒有辦法明確地判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變的時機，而你的危害評估淪為紙上作業，而且沒有具體的應踐行的步驟、行政程序，也沒有時間規範，所以難以達到緊急應變的功效，導致你這個危害評估有可能事實上是淪為紙上作業。"],["薛部長富盛：我們再來檢討。"],["主席：是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明？"],["林委員淑芬：對不對？你們的空污突發事故通報緊急應變措施這一些，以深坑大火為例，新北市有沒有通報？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上中央跟地方是一起合作的，執行面大概是……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，因為它不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計畫還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業，但是民眾檢舉事情發生以後，地方政府也應該要通報，而且還要通報到中央來，這件事情有沒有通報？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有？"],["薛部長富盛：隔天。"],["林委員淑芬：隔天早上有嗎？我看新聞報導說好像好多天以後還說沒有通報，連通報都沒有，緊急應變措施是業者的責任，但危害評估是地方政府的責任，危害評估沒有具體的規範、沒有時程的規範，這淪為紙上作業，部長，還有很多要檢討的，可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦！"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：我看只能留給下一任的部長了吧？還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段，馬上檢討，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個是沉痾已久的問題的話……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有空窗期，這一個月馬上要求……"],["薛部長富盛：我們來努力看看。"],["林委員淑芬：可以嗎？業管單位可以嗎？一個月內寫出檢討報告。"],["張司長順欽：可以。"],["林委員淑芬：書面檢討報告？可以？好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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00:01:38,748\n因為這個好像好的車沒有跑開出去飆一下不太像超跑所以在半夜12點以後才會開出去飆那我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路它是還有一段距離的大條的四線道的馬路但是你們都聽得到我們大家所有不是我們的社區不是我們的結果整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜12點以後有人開超跑在飆車\n\n5\n00:01:40,470 --> 00:01:47,593\n其實在那裡你說臨時發現了然後你沒有設定鼓動的你用移動的這個聲音照相設備來你移動了來已經照了這個永遠第一個不是換不均而也換寡那你全部這麼多年來你花投資30億元你要講說對於噪音對人體身體健康的影響很大可是30億元這麼多年投資只有30億元\n\n6\n00:02:08,522 --> 00:02:18,086\n其實是遠遠不足的啦,老實說。真的造成我們很大的困擾。我們就是受害者。所以其實從量來講,從法制面你對噪音的規範、夜間白天的規範不一。這個當然要有落差。國際上常常說天空、晚上夜深人靜。你30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。\n\n7\n00:02:34,052 --> 00:02:36,914\n法制面也要檢討．執行面也要檢討．設備．有法沒好．你沒測速、測音．還有照相設備沒好．公寓、善集室必先利其器．這個我想部長你剛才有回應了．但我今天不是要談．主要不談這個．我談空汙\n\n8\n00:02:54,987 --> 00:03:06,392\n就是說深坑啊深坑那個大火就是7000顆的鋰電池的這個倉庫在台北市區在新北市區其實造成很大的影響\n\n9\n00:03:08,391 --> 00:03:34,911\n後來我們蘆洲五谷的隔壁叫林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩三天後來又淡水的泡棉廠後來又有樹林的木材廠泡棉跟塑膠廠這個風險危害對我們來講我們很直覺的反應就是相當應該是有一定程度可是我今天來講從深坑這個案例因為它比較受到非常高大的影響層面很廣\n\n10\n00:03:36,372 --> 00:03:41,037\n然後關注度很高的狀況我先來討論就是他當時7000顆鋁電池這樣子堆製然後燒的時候你們木柵空瓶的策戰的資料顯示到了隔一天你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他策戰明顯升高\n\n11\n00:03:58,815 --> 00:04:14,304\n但是當時雙北的環保局都表示空氣品質仍在普通範圍內有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受是很大的落差\n\n12\n00:04:16,485 --> 00:04:19,047\n我今天再講我要講的是法制面的問題還有執行面也有法制面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面\n\n13\n00:04:36,138 --> 00:04:55,836\n因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源因突發事故大量排放空污時負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市儲管機關第二\n\n14\n00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:17,591\n這些狀況呢主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府除了他要令公司、場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施\n\n15\n00:05:18,812 --> 00:05:31,186\n那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們了也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施但是呢我們33條裡面的第4項還講說\n\n16\n00:05:38,575 --> 00:06:02,376\n這裏面的二話的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法還是要給中央主管機關去定那你們當然就定出來了你們定出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法\n\n17\n00:06:03,581 --> 00:06:19,844\n可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所\n\n18\n00:06:20,365 --> 00:06:26,692\n先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位\n\n19\n00:06:35,322 --> 00:06:52,955\n他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製成除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫或者是這個就是空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切的執行所以你們限定了你們有要求應變計畫\n\n20\n00:07:04,504 --> 00:07:19,928\n然後這個警告措施等等但是限縮在於公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看\n\n21\n00:07:24,608 --> 00:07:44,323\n你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個\n\n22\n00:07:47,085 --> 00:07:56,707\n而範圍然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個而廠商裡面他們是不是\n\n23\n00:07:57,986 --> 00:08:26,358\n給林委員報告,事實上他不是因為深根那個案子,它事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們空戶防治法的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權\n\n24\n00:08:27,698 --> 00:08:56,493\n不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子你們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了\n\n25\n00:08:59,073 --> 00:09:19,687\n因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法\n\n26\n00:09:21,101 --> 00:09:38,632\n是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反映深耕這個事實上的確造成很大民怨深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎\n\n27\n00:09:39,912 --> 00:09:53,358\n他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來\n\n28\n00:09:56,208 --> 00:09:57,929\n為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗\n\n29\n00:10:14,104 --> 00:10:16,367\n現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長\n\n30\n00:10:32,406 --> 00:10:45,532\n只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊\n\n31\n00:10:49,264 --> 00:11:07,362\n但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裏面有很多的聚氯乙烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?\n\n32\n00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:34,012\n事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測\n\n33\n00:11:35,543 --> 00:11:49,204\n然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧\n\n34\n00:11:51,483 --> 00:12:19,582\n是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且\n\n35\n00:12:21,563 --> 00:12:39,685\n最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼\n\n36\n00:12:41,235 --> 00:12:57,804\n所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊\n\n37\n00:13:08,670 --> 00:13:26,340\n那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例你知道嗎在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家\n\n38\n00:13:27,421 --> 00:13:38,933\n然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估\n\n39\n00:13:41,994 --> 00:14:02,093\n你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了\n\n40\n00:14:08,019 --> 00:14:22,193\n因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討\n\n41\n00:14:23,354 --> 00:14:43,063\n第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效\n\n42\n00:14:49,005 --> 00:15:09,516\n所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是淪語指上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩瓦來為例啊新北市有沒有通報\n\n43\n00:15:10,785 --> 00:15:32,433\n有沒有通報?沒有啊,因為他不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計劃還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢,當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來,這個事情有沒有通報?沒有\n\n44\n00:15:35,834 --> 00:15:49,764\n昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有實証的規範\n\n45\n00:15:52,566 --> 00:16:19,380\n在輪雨組上作業啦,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎\n\n46\n00:16:20,765 --> 00:16:21,065\n林淑芬委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9006\t13410\t主席,各位大家午安,是不是再繼續請我們薛部長?請薛部長。好,林委好。部長,這個噪音移動汽機車,噪音的污染其實是很嚴重的。2021年有一則新聞,說新北市6天的執法開罰了1500件。\n36720\t52346\t6天就取締了1500件那當然我們知道這個設備大概就是它必須要測速還要有聲音還必須照相所以它是很複雜的一套機器那我們也知道新北市目前分配到這個36套\n55208\t63540\t那我們蘆洲像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定的固定設置在中山一路可是你知道我是受害者曾經我們蘆洲不曉得是那個超跑的愛用者還是什麼他很準時半夜12點以後才開出門\n70350\t98748\t因為這個好像好的車沒有跑開出去飆一下不太像超跑所以在半夜12點以後才會開出去飆那我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路它是還有一段距離的大條的四線道的馬路但是你們都聽得到我們大家所有不是我們的社區不是我們的結果整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜12點以後有人開超跑在飆車\n100470\t107593\t其實在那裡你說臨時發現了然後你沒有設定鼓動的你用移動的這個聲音照相設備來你移動了來已經照了這個永遠第一個不是換不均而也換寡那你全部這麼多年來你花投資30億元你要講說對於噪音對人體身體健康的影響很大可是30億元這麼多年投資只有30億元\n128522\t138086\t其實是遠遠不足的啦,老實說。真的造成我們很大的困擾。我們就是受害者。所以其實從量來講,從法制面你對噪音的規範、夜間白天的規範不一。這個當然要有落差。國際上常常說天空、晚上夜深人靜。你30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。\n154052\t156914\t法制面也要檢討．執行面也要檢討．設備．有法沒好．你沒測速、測音．還有照相設備沒好．公寓、善集室必先利其器．這個我想部長你剛才有回應了．但我今天不是要談．主要不談這個．我談空汙\n174987\t186392\t就是說深坑啊深坑那個大火就是7000顆的鋰電池的這個倉庫在台北市區在新北市區其實造成很大的影響\n188391\t214911\t後來我們蘆洲五谷的隔壁叫林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩三天後來又淡水的泡棉廠後來又有樹林的木材廠泡棉跟塑膠廠這個風險危害對我們來講我們很直覺的反應就是相當應該是有一定程度可是我今天來講從深坑這個案例因為它比較受到非常高大的影響層面很廣\n216372\t221037\t然後關注度很高的狀況我先來討論就是他當時7000顆鋁電池這樣子堆製然後燒的時候你們木柵空瓶的策戰的資料顯示到了隔一天你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他策戰明顯升高\n238815\t254304\t但是當時雙北的環保局都表示空氣品質仍在普通範圍內有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受是很大的落差\n256485\t259047\t我今天再講 我要講的是法制面的問題還有執行面也有 法制面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面\n276138\t295836\t因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源因突發事故大量排放空污時負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市儲管機關第二\n298839\t317591\t這些狀況呢主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府除了他要令公司、場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施\n318812\t331186\t那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們了也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施但是呢我們33條裡面的第4項還講說\n338575\t362376\t這裏面的二話的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法還是要給中央主管機關去定那你們當然就定出來了你們定出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法\n363581\t379844\t可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所\n380365\t386692\t先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位\n395322\t412955\t他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製成除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫或者是這個就是空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切的執行所以你們限定了你們有要求應變計畫\n424504\t439928\t然後這個警告措施等等但是限縮在於公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看\n444608\t464323\t你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個\n467085\t476707\t而範圍然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個而廠商裡面他們是不是\n477986\t506358\t給林委員報告,事實上他不是因為深根那個案子,它事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們空戶防治法的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權\n507698\t536493\t不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子你們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了\n539073\t559687\t因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法\n561101\t578632\t是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反映深耕這個事實上的確造成很大民怨深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎\n579912\t593358\t他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來\n596208\t597929\t為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗\n614104\t616367\t現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長\n632406\t645532\t只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊\n649264\t667362\t但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裏面有很多的聚氯乙烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?\n671880\t694012\t事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測\n695543\t709204\t然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧\n711483\t739582\t是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且\n741563\t759685\t最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼\n761235\t777804\t所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊\n788670\t806340\t那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊 這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例 你知道嗎 在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家\n807421\t818933\t然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔 這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估\n821994\t842093\t你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了\n848019\t862193\t因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討\n863354\t883063\t第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效\n889005\t909516\t所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是淪語指上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩瓦來為例啊新北市有沒有通報\n910785\t932433\t有沒有通報?沒有啊,因為他不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計劃還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢,當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來,這個事情有沒有通報?沒有\n935834\t949764\t昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有實証的規範\n952566\t979380\t在輪雨組上作業啦,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎\n980765\t981065\t林淑芬委員\n","txt":"主席,各位大家午安,是不是再繼續請我們薛部長?請薛部長。好,林委好。部長,這個噪音移動汽機車,噪音的污染其實是很嚴重的。2021年有一則新聞,說新北市6天的執法開罰了1500件。\n6天就取締了1500件那當然我們知道這個設備大概就是它必須要測速還要有聲音還必須照相所以它是很複雜的一套機器那我們也知道新北市目前分配到這個36套\n那我們蘆洲像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定的固定設置在中山一路可是你知道我是受害者曾經我們蘆洲不曉得是那個超跑的愛用者還是什麼他很準時半夜12點以後才開出門\n因為這個好像好的車沒有跑開出去飆一下不太像超跑所以在半夜12點以後才會開出去飆那我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路它是還有一段距離的大條的四線道的馬路但是你們都聽得到我們大家所有不是我們的社區不是我們的結果整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜12點以後有人開超跑在飆車\n其實在那裡你說臨時發現了然後你沒有設定鼓動的你用移動的這個聲音照相設備來你移動了來已經照了這個永遠第一個不是換不均而也換寡那你全部這麼多年來你花投資30億元你要講說對於噪音對人體身體健康的影響很大可是30億元這麼多年投資只有30億元\n其實是遠遠不足的啦,老實說。真的造成我們很大的困擾。我們就是受害者。所以其實從量來講,從法制面你對噪音的規範、夜間白天的規範不一。這個當然要有落差。國際上常常說天空、晚上夜深人靜。你30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。\n法制面也要檢討．執行面也要檢討．設備．有法沒好．你沒測速、測音．還有照相設備沒好．公寓、善集室必先利其器．這個我想部長你剛才有回應了．但我今天不是要談．主要不談這個．我談空汙\n就是說深坑啊深坑那個大火就是7000顆的鋰電池的這個倉庫在台北市區在新北市區其實造成很大的影響\n後來我們蘆洲五谷的隔壁叫林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩三天後來又淡水的泡棉廠後來又有樹林的木材廠泡棉跟塑膠廠這個風險危害對我們來講我們很直覺的反應就是相當應該是有一定程度可是我今天來講從深坑這個案例因為它比較受到非常高大的影響層面很廣\n然後關注度很高的狀況我先來討論就是他當時7000顆鋁電池這樣子堆製然後燒的時候你們木柵空瓶的策戰的資料顯示到了隔一天你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他策戰明顯升高\n但是當時雙北的環保局都表示空氣品質仍在普通範圍內有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受是很大的落差\n我今天再講 我要講的是法制面的問題還有執行面也有 法制面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面\n因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源因突發事故大量排放空污時負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市儲管機關第二\n這些狀況呢主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府除了他要令公司、場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施\n那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們了也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施但是呢我們33條裡面的第4項還講說\n這裏面的二話的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法還是要給中央主管機關去定那你們當然就定出來了你們定出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法\n可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所\n先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位\n他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製成除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫或者是這個就是空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切的執行所以你們限定了你們有要求應變計畫\n然後這個警告措施等等但是限縮在於公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看\n你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個\n而範圍然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個而廠商裡面他們是不是\n給林委員報告,事實上他不是因為深根那個案子,它事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們空戶防治法的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權\n不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子你們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了\n因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法\n是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反映深耕這個事實上的確造成很大民怨深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎\n他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來\n為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗\n現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長\n只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊\n但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裏面有很多的聚氯乙烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?\n事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測\n然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧\n是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且\n最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼\n所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊\n那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊 這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例 你知道嗎 在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家\n然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔 這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估\n你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了\n因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討\n第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效\n所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是淪語指上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩瓦來為例啊新北市有沒有通報\n有沒有通報?沒有啊,因為他不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計劃還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢,當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來,這個事情有沒有通報?沒有\n昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有實証的規範\n在輪雨組上作業啦,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎\n林淑芬委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.006 --> 00:13.410\n主席,各位大家午安,是不是再繼續請我們薛部長?請薛部長。好,林委好。部長,這個噪音移動汽機車,噪音的污染其實是很嚴重的。2021年有一則新聞,說新北市6天的執法開罰了1500件。\n\n00:36.720 --> 00:52.346\n6天就取締了1500件那當然我們知道這個設備大概就是它必須要測速還要有聲音還必須照相所以它是很複雜的一套機器那我們也知道新北市目前分配到這個36套\n\n00:55.208 --> 01:03.540\n那我們蘆洲像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定的固定設置在中山一路可是你知道我是受害者曾經我們蘆洲不曉得是那個超跑的愛用者還是什麼他很準時半夜12點以後才開出門\n\n01:10.350 --> 01:38.748\n因為這個好像好的車沒有跑開出去飆一下不太像超跑所以在半夜12點以後才會開出去飆那我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路它是還有一段距離的大條的四線道的馬路但是你們都聽得到我們大家所有不是我們的社區不是我們的結果整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜12點以後有人開超跑在飆車\n\n01:40.470 --> 01:47.593\n其實在那裡你說臨時發現了然後你沒有設定鼓動的你用移動的這個聲音照相設備來你移動了來已經照了這個永遠第一個不是換不均而也換寡那你全部這麼多年來你花投資30億元你要講說對於噪音對人體身體健康的影響很大可是30億元這麼多年投資只有30億元\n\n02:08.522 --> 02:18.086\n其實是遠遠不足的啦,老實說。真的造成我們很大的困擾。我們就是受害者。所以其實從量來講,從法制面你對噪音的規範、夜間白天的規範不一。這個當然要有落差。國際上常常說天空、晚上夜深人靜。你30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。\n\n02:34.052 --> 02:36.914\n法制面也要檢討．執行面也要檢討．設備．有法沒好．你沒測速、測音．還有照相設備沒好．公寓、善集室必先利其器．這個我想部長你剛才有回應了．但我今天不是要談．主要不談這個．我談空汙\n\n02:54.987 --> 03:06.392\n就是說深坑啊深坑那個大火就是7000顆的鋰電池的這個倉庫在台北市區在新北市區其實造成很大的影響\n\n03:08.391 --> 03:34.911\n後來我們蘆洲五谷的隔壁叫林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩三天後來又淡水的泡棉廠後來又有樹林的木材廠泡棉跟塑膠廠這個風險危害對我們來講我們很直覺的反應就是相當應該是有一定程度可是我今天來講從深坑這個案例因為它比較受到非常高大的影響層面很廣\n\n03:36.372 --> 03:41.037\n然後關注度很高的狀況我先來討論就是他當時7000顆鋁電池這樣子堆製然後燒的時候你們木柵空瓶的策戰的資料顯示到了隔一天你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他策戰明顯升高\n\n03:58.815 --> 04:14.304\n但是當時雙北的環保局都表示空氣品質仍在普通範圍內有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受是很大的落差\n\n04:16.485 --> 04:19.047\n我今天再講我要講的是法制面的問題還有執行面也有法制面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面\n\n04:36.138 --> 04:55.836\n因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源因突發事故大量排放空污時負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市儲管機關第二\n\n04:58.839 --> 05:17.591\n這些狀況呢主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府除了他要令公司、場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施\n\n05:18.812 --> 05:31.186\n那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們了也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施但是呢我們33條裡面的第4項還講說\n\n05:38.575 --> 06:02.376\n這裏面的二話的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法還是要給中央主管機關去定那你們當然就定出來了你們定出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法\n\n06:03.581 --> 06:19.844\n可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所\n\n06:20.365 --> 06:26.692\n先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位\n\n06:35.322 --> 06:52.955\n他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製成除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫或者是這個就是空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切的執行所以你們限定了你們有要求應變計畫\n\n07:04.504 --> 07:19.928\n然後這個警告措施等等但是限縮在於公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看\n\n07:24.608 --> 07:44.323\n你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個\n\n07:47.085 --> 07:56.707\n而範圍然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個而廠商裡面他們是不是\n\n07:57.986 --> 08:26.358\n給林委員報告,事實上他不是因為深根那個案子,它事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們空戶防治法的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權\n\n08:27.698 --> 08:56.493\n不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子你們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了\n\n08:59.073 --> 09:19.687\n因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法\n\n09:21.101 --> 09:38.632\n是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反映深耕這個事實上的確造成很大民怨深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎\n\n09:39.912 --> 09:53.358\n他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來\n\n09:56.208 --> 09:57.929\n為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗\n\n10:14.104 --> 10:16.367\n現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長\n\n10:32.406 --> 10:45.532\n只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊\n\n10:49.264 --> 11:07.362\n但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裏面有很多的聚氯乙烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?\n\n11:11.880 --> 11:34.012\n事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測\n\n11:35.543 --> 11:49.204\n然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧\n\n11:51.483 --> 12:19.582\n是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且\n\n12:21.563 --> 12:39.685\n最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼\n\n12:41.235 --> 12:57.804\n所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊\n\n13:08.670 --> 13:26.340\n那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例你知道嗎在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家\n\n13:27.421 --> 13:38.933\n然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估\n\n13:41.994 --> 14:02.093\n你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了\n\n14:08.019 --> 14:22.193\n因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討\n\n14:23.354 --> 14:43.063\n第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效\n\n14:49.005 --> 15:09.516\n所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是淪語指上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩瓦來為例啊新北市有沒有通報\n\n15:10.785 --> 15:32.433\n有沒有通報?沒有啊,因為他不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計劃還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢,當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來,這個事情有沒有通報?沒有\n\n15:35.834 --> 15:49.764\n昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有實証的規範\n\n15:52.566 --> 16:19.380\n在輪雨組上作業啦,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎\n\n16:20.765 --> 16:21.065\n林淑芬委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.006,"end":13.41,"text":"主席,各位大家午安,是不是再繼續請我們薛部長?請薛部長。好,林委好。部長,這個噪音移動汽機車,噪音的污染其實是很嚴重的。2021年有一則新聞,說新北市6天的執法開罰了1500件。"},{"start":36.72,"end":52.346,"text":"6天就取締了1500件那當然我們知道這個設備大概就是它必須要測速還要有聲音還必須照相所以它是很複雜的一套機器那我們也知道新北市目前分配到這個36套"},{"start":55.208,"end":63.54,"text":"那我們蘆洲像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定的固定設置在中山一路可是你知道我是受害者曾經我們蘆洲不曉得是那個超跑的愛用者還是什麼他很準時半夜12點以後才開出門"},{"start":70.35,"end":98.748,"text":"因為這個好像好的車沒有跑開出去飆一下不太像超跑所以在半夜12點以後才會開出去飆那我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路它是還有一段距離的大條的四線道的馬路但是你們都聽得到我們大家所有不是我們的社區不是我們的結果整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜12點以後有人開超跑在飆車"},{"start":100.47,"end":107.593,"text":"其實在那裡你說臨時發現了然後你沒有設定鼓動的你用移動的這個聲音照相設備來你移動了來已經照了這個永遠第一個不是換不均而也換寡那你全部這麼多年來你花投資30億元你要講說對於噪音對人體身體健康的影響很大可是30億元這麼多年投資只有30億元"},{"start":128.522,"end":138.086,"text":"其實是遠遠不足的啦,老實說。真的造成我們很大的困擾。我們就是受害者。所以其實從量來講,從法制面你對噪音的規範、夜間白天的規範不一。這個當然要有落差。國際上常常說天空、晚上夜深人靜。你30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。"},{"start":154.052,"end":156.914,"text":"法制面也要檢討．執行面也要檢討．設備．有法沒好．你沒測速、測音．還有照相設備沒好．公寓、善集室必先利其器．這個我想部長你剛才有回應了．但我今天不是要談．主要不談這個．我談空汙"},{"start":174.987,"end":186.392,"text":"就是說深坑啊深坑那個大火就是7000顆的鋰電池的這個倉庫在台北市區在新北市區其實造成很大的影響"},{"start":188.391,"end":214.911,"text":"後來我們蘆洲五谷的隔壁叫林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩三天後來又淡水的泡棉廠後來又有樹林的木材廠泡棉跟塑膠廠這個風險危害對我們來講我們很直覺的反應就是相當應該是有一定程度可是我今天來講從深坑這個案例因為它比較受到非常高大的影響層面很廣"},{"start":216.372,"end":221.037,"text":"然後關注度很高的狀況我先來討論就是他當時7000顆鋁電池這樣子堆製然後燒的時候你們木柵空瓶的策戰的資料顯示到了隔一天你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他策戰明顯升高"},{"start":238.815,"end":254.304,"text":"但是當時雙北的環保局都表示空氣品質仍在普通範圍內有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受是很大的落差"},{"start":256.485,"end":259.047,"text":"我今天再講 我要講的是法制面的問題還有執行面也有 法制面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面"},{"start":276.138,"end":295.836,"text":"因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源因突發事故大量排放空污時負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市儲管機關第二"},{"start":298.839,"end":317.591,"text":"這些狀況呢主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府除了他要令公司、場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施"},{"start":318.812,"end":331.186,"text":"那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們了也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施但是呢我們33條裡面的第4項還講說"},{"start":338.575,"end":362.376,"text":"這裏面的二話的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法還是要給中央主管機關去定那你們當然就定出來了你們定出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法"},{"start":363.581,"end":379.844,"text":"可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所"},{"start":380.365,"end":386.692,"text":"先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位"},{"start":395.322,"end":412.955,"text":"他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製成除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫或者是這個就是空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切的執行所以你們限定了你們有要求應變計畫"},{"start":424.504,"end":439.928,"text":"然後這個警告措施等等但是限縮在於公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看"},{"start":444.608,"end":464.323,"text":"你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個"},{"start":467.085,"end":476.707,"text":"而範圍然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個而廠商裡面他們是不是"},{"start":477.986,"end":506.358,"text":"給林委員報告,事實上他不是因為深根那個案子,它事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們空戶防治法的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權"},{"start":507.698,"end":536.493,"text":"不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子你們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了"},{"start":539.073,"end":559.687,"text":"因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法"},{"start":561.101,"end":578.632,"text":"是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反映深耕這個事實上的確造成很大民怨深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":579.912,"end":593.358,"text":"他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來"},{"start":596.208,"end":597.929,"text":"為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗"},{"start":614.104,"end":616.367,"text":"現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長"},{"start":632.406,"end":645.532,"text":"只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊"},{"start":649.264,"end":667.362,"text":"但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裏面有很多的聚氯乙烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?"},{"start":671.88,"end":694.012,"text":"事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測"},{"start":695.543,"end":709.204,"text":"然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧"},{"start":711.483,"end":739.582,"text":"是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且"},{"start":741.563,"end":759.685,"text":"最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼"},{"start":761.235,"end":777.804,"text":"所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊"},{"start":788.67,"end":806.34,"text":"那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊 這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例 你知道嗎 在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家"},{"start":807.421,"end":818.933,"text":"然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔 這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估"},{"start":821.994,"end":842.093,"text":"你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了"},{"start":848.019,"end":862.193,"text":"因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討"},{"start":863.354,"end":883.063,"text":"第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效"},{"start":889.005,"end":909.516,"text":"所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是淪語指上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩瓦來為例啊新北市有沒有通報"},{"start":910.785,"end":932.433,"text":"有沒有通報?沒有啊,因為他不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計劃還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢,當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來,這個事情有沒有通報?沒有"},{"start":935.834,"end":949.764,"text":"昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有實証的規範"},{"start":952.566,"end":979.38,"text":"在輪雨組上作業啦,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎"},{"start":980.765,"end":981.065,"text":"林淑芬委員"}]}}}}