{"id":151594,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151594","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c0c8540be2d6a456b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432e2131648064ea1b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:11:12 - 09:21:58","影片長度":"00:10:46","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":646,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:21:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:11:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時11分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，我把衛福部上個月的報告書跟檢察官的起訴書做了比對，灰色的部分是衛福部報告書，紅色底的部分是檢察官的起訴書，起訴書寫得非常清楚，從9月1號到12月23號將近4個月的時間，劉姓保母和他的姐妹接連對愷愷實行了很多的兒虐行為。9月7號開始用指甲刮愷愷的右頸部，在住家中捆綁愷愷，甚至把幼小的他塞入水桶，罰他裸體躺地上，用腳踹他，毆打他等等，導致愷愷的脖子有撕裂傷，全身多處新舊不同程度的鈍挫擦傷痕，大血管塌陷、兩側額頂瘀青、陰囊裂傷、多處瘀傷、皮下組織出血、壞死，以及血液組織液淤積，身體甚至因為長期的捆綁導致四肢變形不對稱。但是在兒福社工師的報告中僅簡略地記載了額頭瘀青還有孩子比較安靜，就連孩子掉了4顆牙，這個保母辯稱是磨牙脫落的荒唐理由，社工師照單全收了。12月5號社工約訪不成之後，保母後續都用LINE跟電話來聯繫、回報，社工師沒有察覺異狀，我覺得這都是因為保母過去和兒童出養合作經驗良好，有很深的信任，但是其實衛福部早就有規定，這種訪視是要用不約訪的方式，但是社工、保母在這次是多採約訪的方式，所以他可能因此沒有辦法查到真相。沒有人否認第一線的社工非常辛苦，但是我還是想問，為何社工的訪視卻沒有對孩子身上產生瘀青等等有所警覺？我必須指出這個透過長期合作培養出來的所謂的信任感，其實它是要接受外部機制的挑戰，因為這種信任感到底是對孩子有利還是有害？部長，請問您覺得這個是個案還是系統性的問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：以這個案子來說，當然是一個個案，因為那麼沒有人性的人應該不會是通案。"],["陳委員昭姿：希望如此。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是剛剛委員提到所謂的互相信任，就是社工跟……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為他們長期合作。"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上以這個案子來看的話也不到那種程度，因為這個劉姓保母前後有收了3個小孩子的托育，其中一個是自費的，不是全日的。"],["陳委員昭姿：稍後我會提到保母，保母到底都是初次還是新手，部長……"],["薛部長瑞元：我記得那兩、三個月他就出養了，所以事實上並沒有所謂的長期合作的關係啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，我是指社工跟保母間的信任感，我指的是這個，部長，不好意思……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個信任感是沒有什麼理由的信任感。"],["陳委員昭姿：之前質詢我有提到監察委員王美玉的報告，那時候我有提到說其實這個報告內容很值得衛福部做參考，報告中有指出2019到2020年11月兒虐事件施虐者，從當中可以看到，看第一個，有關兒保安置，保母都列在其中，很遺憾的，近期保母施虐的案件層出不窮，前幾天高雄5月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折以及內傷，疑似是保母施虐，目前羈押中；2023年4月基隆3歲孩子遭狠踩腹部、長期施暴，最後肝臟破裂死亡；2022年底，臺中清水1歲的小女嬰小桃子遭到保母施虐，顱內出血，併發缺氧性腦病變而身亡。涉案的許多保母大多不是新手，都是已經照顧過很多孩子的保母，所以我想提醒部長，保母施暴需要衛福部花更多的心力去瞭解，因為每個孩子都是寶貝，政府是不是應該更積極介入，有一些機制淘汰不適任的保母？聯合國有一個兒童權利公約一直都呼籲孩子最需要的就是回歸到家庭或社區，所以家外安置的優先次序是以親屬為優先，其次是寄養家庭，然後才是機構，並且盡可能讓機構小規模化，部長你認為這個跟我們現況一致嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上也差不多，以目前來講的話，當然就是機構還有寄養家庭……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長覺得差不多，部長，因為我們……"],["薛部長瑞元：方向上面差不多。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們的兒少權法施行細則第十條也有相關規定，家外安置的順序，第一個就是適當的親屬，順位二就是與兒少有長期正向穩定依附關係的第三人等。部長，你覺得方向一致，你知道我們親屬安置的比率嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：親屬安置的比率應該不是很高。"],["陳委員昭姿：我讓部長知道，安置在機構的孩子現在是60%，親屬安置只有3%，而且安置在機構的小孩有一成多是6歲以下，所以我想不論是基於情理或法律規定，甚至是國際兒童權利公約。愷愷本來是應該在他長期正向穩定依附關係的這位保母家中，讓他繼續待在那裡是最好的方式，何況這位保母也表示願意出養，但是愷愷被永久地剝奪了這樣的機會。我是報告部長，部長，請特別看一下序號21號，我把它框起來了，讀到這些文字的時候真的令人心痛憤慨，這個孩子的家庭經過16次兒少保護通報、脆弱家庭、自殺防治、有毒品前科還有酒駕等等通報，我們的社會安全網根本沒有接住他，有想過要接住他嗎？還是無感呢？我不知道這個孩子後續如何啦！我很不敢再想下去，也不願想，因為我不知道他會不會成為另外一個事實上已經離開人世的孩子。","根據臺大劉淑瓊教授的研究，從2011年到2016年有68件重大的兒虐事件，其中四分之一的孩子過往有受暴史；在2019到2020年4月期間，有43件重大兒虐事件，其中5件不曾被通報，但是有38件雖然有進入政府相關的服務系統或利用了福利資源，甚至多次被通報，但防護網終究沒有接住他們，反而發生虐死或重大傷害的悲劇。所以部長，我想說的是這兩個狀況必須趕快處理，第一個就是通報的黑數，第二個是通報後沒有即時地有效處理或追蹤，因為有時候社工在家訪中可能誤評，就是沒有正確地去評估，所以沒有開案，所以這兩種狀況是不是應該立刻進行檢討，部長您同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：同意。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長。部長，衛福部需要努力填補的漏洞還滿多的，許多專家、學者都有指出，國健署的6歲以下兒童死因回溯分析，這個報告非常好，但是它沒有涵蓋所有死因的小孩，缺乏針對兒少虐待事件的分析部分，比較偏重公衛嘛！因為這是從公衛的角度去做，當然從公衛角度的切入很好，因為是從預防的角度去看。我想跟部長分享實務上會出現的幾個狀況，就是國健署有委託幾個縣市在做實驗計畫，請各縣市提供個案，並由各局處來做討論，但是因為局處不會直接瞭解這個小孩子的情況，所以能夠討論的成效其實是有限的。第二個、有專家反映中央兒少權益小組討論的時候，死因回溯報告中與兒虐相關的部分相對是比較少的；第三、又有某縣市提出來說討論的期中報告裡面，有時候根本就沒有兒虐的部分，都是意外事件，所以讓參與者沒有機會就兒虐的部分來做討論。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個原因是因為兒虐的部分有另外的系統。"],["陳委員昭姿：有另外的系統？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們看一下右下角F專家講的，就是做一個兒虐案件的死亡根本原因分析要花一個醫師跟一個專家30個小時的時間，因此做死亡根本原因分析其實要耗費很多資源，我也希望衛福部跟國健署有這個認知，就是其實有時候資源要盤點然後做改善計畫。另外，劉教授的研究報告也提到，可能因為害怕中央究責，所以事實上地方呈報中央的報告當中有很多失真或不完整的地方，在這個過程當中可能都經過長官幾度修改喔！部長，與事實可能不符的檢討報告有意義嗎？請你瞭解有這個狀況，因為這個研究報告中都有指出。在2020年南投縣有一名4歲女童彤彤遭母親男友虐殺致死，那個案件其實有很多的漏洞，包括社工誤評，另外一個漏洞就是在轉診時醫師未能及時發現這個小朋友是有腦部傷勢的，當時衛福部的解釋是因為沒有照會該醫院比較熟悉兒少議題的醫師，真的很遺憾。我知道衛福部已經啟動了幼兒專責醫師制度，不過我們上去看發現目前還是空空的，還沒有相關的報告，那這個制度是不是能夠讓接觸兒虐案件的醫師們熟悉兒少保護的議題？有關後續的成效、醫師的覆蓋率也請衛福部多努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：會，幼兒專責醫師的制度其實只是另外提供一個篩選的制度，如果出現兒虐，也多一道可以早期發現的機制。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151594","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151594","tool":"pyannote","id":"151594-pyannote"},"job_id":"Ae3Z7BNWrXgTJRE9","queued_at":"2024-05-31 19:34:59","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 19:35:53","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151594"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:35:54","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c0c8540be2d6a456b903698ddfaa754ad2ddfac4d3fd9eb7a10c39d4f6f692525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:36:17","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:36:18","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:36:29","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 216.689, \"end\": 217.09, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 217.09, \"end\": 217.49, \"score\": 0.829}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 217.49, \"end\": 217.65, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"候\", \"start\": 217.65, \"end\": 217.771, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 217.771, \"end\": 217.871, \"score\": 0.897}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 217.871, \"end\": 217.991, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 217.991, \"end\": 218.091, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 218.091, \"end\": 218.431, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 218.431, \"end\": 219.032, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 219.032, \"end\": 219.172, \"score\": 0.758}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 219.172, \"end\": 219.272, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"內\"}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 219.272, \"end\": 219.452, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 219.452, \"end\": 219.613, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 219.613, \"end\": 219.793, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"值\", \"start\": 219.793, \"end\": 219.933, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 219.933, \"end\": 220.193, \"score\": 0.729}, {\"word\": \"衛\"}, {\"word\": \"福\", \"start\": 220.193, \"end\": 220.313, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 220.313, \"end\": 220.454, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 220.454, \"end\": 220.634, \"score\": 0.84}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 220.634, \"end\": 220.654, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 221.775, \"end\": 240.332, \"text\": \"那這個報告中有指出2019到2011月額略事件失略者從當中可以看到看第一個保姆就是有關兒保安置保姆都列在其中那很遺憾的近年近期來這個保姆失略的這個案件層出不窮前幾天高雄五月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 221.775, \"end\": 222.456, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, 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\"診\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"醫\"}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 588.112, \"end\": 588.252, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 588.252, \"end\": 588.272, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"及\", \"start\": 588.272, \"end\": 588.292, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"小\", \"start\": 588.292, \"end\": 588.432, \"score\": 0.707}, {\"word\": \"朋\", \"start\": 588.432, \"end\": 588.452, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"友\", \"start\": 588.452, \"end\": 588.612, \"score\": 0.765}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 588.612, \"end\": 588.852, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 588.852, \"end\": 588.872, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"腦\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 588.872, \"end\": 588.932, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"傷\"}, {\"word\": \"勢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 588.932, \"end\": 588.952, \"score\": 0.001}]}, {\"start\": 591.815, \"end\": 596.838, \"text\": 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00:00:39,494\n委員長。部長早。部長,我把衛福部上個月的報告書跟檢察官的起訴書做了比對。那這個灰色的部分是衛福部報告書,紅色底的部分是檢察官的起訴書。那起訴書寫得非常的清楚,從9月1號到12月23號,將近4個月的時間,劉姓保母和她的姊妹接連對凱凱實行了很多的這個,做了很多額虐的行為。7月7號開始用指甲刮\n\n3\n00:00:40,955 --> 00:01:00,332\n凱凱的右頸部,在住家中捆綁凱凱,甚至把右腳踩入水桶,罰他裸體躺地上,用腳踹他、毆打他等等,導致凱凱脖子有撕裂傷,全身多處新舊不同程度的頓挫、擦傷痕,大血管塌陷,兩側額頂淤青,陰囊裂傷。」\n\n4\n00:01:04,716 --> 00:01:15,327\n多處遺傷皮下組織出血壞死以及血液裡面組織是淤積的身體甚至因為長期的捆綁導致四肢變形不對稱\n\n5\n00:01:18,598 --> 00:01:40,649\n但是在兒扶社公司的報告中,僅簡略地記載了這個額頭淤青還有孩子比較安靜,那就連孩子掉了四顆牙,他這個保姆變成是磨牙脫落的荒唐理由社公司照單全收,那12月5號社工的約訪不成之後,保姆後續都用LINE跟電話來聯繫\n\n6\n00:01:43,690 --> 00:01:48,712\n回報社工沒有察覺異狀我覺得這都是因為所謂的保母過去和兒童出養合作的經驗良好的信任但是其實衛福部早就有規定這種訪視是要用不約訪的方式就是不約訪的方式但是社工保母在這次是多採約訪的方式所以他可能因此沒有辦法查到真相\n\n7\n00:02:08,937 --> 00:02:35,546\n那沒有人否認第一線的社工的非常的辛苦但是我還是想問為何社工的訪視卻沒有對孩子身上產生這個瘀青等等有所警覺那我必須指出這個透過長期合作培養出來的所謂的信任感其實他是要接受這個外部機制的挑戰因為這種信任感到底是對孩子有利還是有害部長請問您覺得這個是個案還是系統性的問題\n\n8\n00:02:41,268 --> 00:02:56,998\n這案子當然是一個個案,因為那麼沒有人性的人應該不會是同案的。但是剛剛委員所提到的,這個所謂的這個互相信任,社工…因為他們長期合作?\n\n9\n00:02:57,738 --> 00:03:25,357\n事實上以這個案子來看的話也不到那種程度因為這一個流行保姆他有前後有收了三個小孩子的這個托育那其中一個是自費的那不是全日的最後我也提到說保姆是因為保姆到底都是初次還是新手第一個也只不過我記得他兩三個月他就出養了所以事實上並沒有所謂的長期合作的關係\n\n10\n00:03:26,738 --> 00:03:40,654\n我是指這個社工跟這個保姆的信任感我指的是這個這個信任感是沒有什麼理由的信任感這個之前質詢我有提到那個監察委員王美玉的報告那時候我有提到說其實這個裡面的內容報告很值得衛福部做參考\n\n11\n00:03:41,775 --> 00:04:00,332\n那這個報告中有指出2019到2011月額略事件失略者從當中可以看到看第一個保姆就是有關兒保安置保姆都列在其中那很遺憾的近年近期來這個保姆失略的這個案件層出不窮前幾天高雄五月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折\n\n12\n00:04:02,415 --> 00:04:20,976\n以及內商疑似保姆失孽,目前羈押中。2023年4月,基隆3歲孩子橫踩腹部長期施暴,最後肝臟破裂死亡。2022年底,台中1歲清水的小女嬰小桃子遭到保姆失孽,顱內出血,併發缺氧性腦病變而身亡。\n\n13\n00:04:21,977 --> 00:04:39,957\n那涉案的許多保姆大多不是新手喔都是已經照顧過很多孩子的保姆所以我想提醒部長保姆施暴是需要衛福部花更多的心力去瞭解因為每個孩子都是寶貝政府是不是應該更積極介入有一些機制淘汰不適任的保姆\n\n14\n00:04:41,789 --> 00:04:59,046\n那聯合國有一個兒童權利公寓一直都呼籲孩子最需要的就是回歸到家庭或社區所以家外安置的優先次序是以親屬為優先其次是寄養家庭然後才是機構並且盡可能讓這個機構是小規模化部長你認為這個跟我們現況一致嗎\n\n15\n00:05:04,232 --> 00:05:31,512\n事實上也差不多啦以目前來講的話當然就是說機構還有企業家庭部長覺得差不多部長對方向上面差不多我們的兒少全法實行系的第10條也有相關規定這個家外安置的數據第一個就是適當的親屬順位二就是與兒少有長期正向穩定依附關係的這個第三人等那部長請問您知道您覺得方向一致你知道我們親屬安置的比率嗎\n\n16\n00:05:33,246 --> 00:05:48,687\n親屬安置的比例應該不是很高我讓部長知道安置在機構的孩子現在是六成百分之六十親屬安置只有百分之三而且安置在機構的小孩有一成多是六歲以下\n\n17\n00:05:49,768 --> 00:06:18,201\n所以我想不論是基於情理或法律規定甚至是國際這個兒童權利公約凱凱本來是應該在他所謂的長期正向穩定依附的關係的這位保母中讓他繼續待在那裡都是最好的方式何況這位保母也表示願意出養但是凱凱被永久的剝奪了這樣的一個機會我是報告部長部長請特別看一下這個序號21號我把它框起來你讀到這些\n\n18\n00:06:19,386 --> 00:06:33,561\n文字的時候真的令人心痛憤慨這個孩子的家庭他經過16次兒少保護通報脆弱家庭自殺防治有毒品前科還有酒駕等等通報我們的社會安全網根本沒有接觸他\n\n19\n00:06:34,642 --> 00:07:00,242\n有想過要接觸他嗎?還是我敢呢?我不知道這個孩子後續如何我很不敢再想下去也不願意想因為我不知道他會不會成為另外一個事實上已經離開人世的一個孩子那根據臺大這個劉淑彤教授研究從2011年這個這一張對到2016年有68件重大的惡劣事件其中四分之一的孩子過往有受暴食\n\n20\n00:07:01,638 --> 00:07:22,288\n在2019到2020年4月期間有43件重大額虐事件,其中5件不曾被通報,但是有38件雖然有進入政府相關的服務系統或利用了所謂福利資源,甚至多次被通報,但防務網終究沒有接觸他們,反而發生虐死或重大傷害的悲劇。」\n\n21\n00:07:23,909 --> 00:07:43,446\n所以部長我想說的是這兩個狀況必須趕快處理第一個就是通報的黑書第二個是通報後沒有及時的有效處理或追蹤有時候社工在家訪中因為他們可能誤評就是沒有正確的去評估所以沒有開案所以這兩個狀況是不是應該可以立刻進行檢討部長您同意嗎\n\n22\n00:07:47,691 --> 00:07:59,848\n衛福部需要努力填補的漏洞許多專家學者指出國健署的六歲以下兒童死因回溯分析沒有涵蓋所有死因的小孩\n\n23\n00:08:01,029 --> 00:08:15,193\n缺乏針對兒、少、虐待事件的分析部分。」比較偏重公衛嘛,因為是公衛角度去做。當然公衛角度切度很好,因為是從預防的角度去看。那我想跟部長分享實務上會出現幾個狀況,就是國健署有委託幾個縣市在做實驗計畫,請各縣市提供各案,並由各局處來做這個討論。但是因為局處不會直接瞭解這個小孩子的情況,所以能夠討論的成效其實是有限的。\n\n24\n00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:46,039\n二、有專家反映中央兒校權益小組討論時,能夠死因回溯報告中與兒虐的部分相對比較少。第三、優某縣市提出討論其中報告中有時候根本就沒有兒虐的部分,都是意外事件,所以讓參與者沒有機會就兒虐的部分來做\n\n25\n00:09:03,391 --> 00:09:31,658\n所以因此做死亡這個根本原因分析其實要耗費很多資源那我也希望說衛福部跟國健署有這個認知就是說其實有時候資源要盤點然後做改善計畫那劉教授的研究報告另外研究報告也提到說可能因為害怕中央中央究責所以事實上地方呈報中央的這個報告當中有很多失真或不完整在這個過程當中可能長官都幾度修改所以部長與事實可能不符的這個檢討報告\n\n26\n00:09:33,098 --> 00:09:48,952\n有意義嗎?」這個就是請你了解有這個狀況,因為這個報告中都有指出那2022年南投縣一名4歲女童童童她遭遇母親男友虐殺致死那那個案件其實有很多的漏洞,包括社工物品一個另外一個漏洞就是轉診時醫師未能及時發現這小朋友是有腦部傷勢的\n\n27\n00:09:51,815 --> 00:09:56,838\n那當時衛福部的解釋是說因為沒有照會該醫院比較熟悉兒少議題的這個醫師啦真的很遺憾那我知道衛福部已經啟動了這個幼兒專責醫師制度不過我們上去看目前還是沒有空空的目前還沒有相關報告那這個報告這個制度是不是能夠讓這個接觸額內案件的醫師們能夠熟悉兒少這個保護的議題是不是後續的成效醫師的涵蓋率也能夠請衛福部多努力\n\n28\n00:10:21,791 --> 00:10:42,940\n而那個幼兒專責醫師的制度,即使只是另外提供一個篩選的一個制度,讓這一個如果出現額內的,多一道可以來早期把它發現的一個機制。謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。謝謝陳昭之委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n169\t6737\t發言。」謝謝主席。有請薛部長。\n12694\t39494\t委員長。部長早。部長,我把衛福部上個月的報告書跟檢察官的起訴書做了比對。那這個灰色的部分是衛福部報告書,紅色底的部分是檢察官的起訴書。那起訴書寫得非常的清楚,從9月1號到12月23號,將近4個月的時間,劉姓保母和她的姊妹接連對凱凱實行了很多的這個,做了很多額虐的行為。7月7號開始用指甲刮\n40955\t60332\t凱凱的右頸部,在住家中捆綁凱凱,甚至把右腳踩入水桶,罰他裸體躺地上,用腳踹他、毆打他等等,導致凱凱脖子有撕裂傷,全身多處新舊不同程度的頓挫、擦傷痕,大血管塌陷,兩側額頂淤青,陰囊裂傷。」\n64716\t75327\t多處遺傷皮下組織出血壞死以及血液裡面組織是淤積的身體甚至因為長期的捆綁導致四肢變形不對稱\n78598\t100649\t但是在兒扶社公司的報告中,僅簡略地記載了這個額頭淤青還有孩子比較安靜,那就連孩子掉了四顆牙,他這個保姆變成是磨牙脫落的荒唐理由社公司照單全收,那12月5號社工的約訪不成之後,保姆後續都用LINE跟電話來聯繫\n103690\t108712\t回報社工沒有察覺異狀我覺得這都是因為所謂的保母過去和兒童出養合作的經驗良好的信任但是其實衛福部早就有規定這種訪視是要用不約訪的方式就是不約訪的方式但是社工保母在這次是多採約訪的方式所以他可能因此沒有辦法查到真相\n128937\t155546\t那沒有人否認第一線的社工的非常的辛苦但是我還是想問為何社工的訪視卻沒有對孩子身上產生這個瘀青等等有所警覺那我必須指出這個透過長期合作培養出來的所謂的信任感其實他是要接受這個外部機制的挑戰因為這種信任感到底是對孩子有利還是有害部長請問您覺得這個是個案還是系統性的問題\n161268\t176998\t這案子當然是一個個案,因為那麼沒有人性的人應該不會是同案的。但是剛剛委員所提到的,這個所謂的這個互相信任,社工…因為他們長期合作?\n177738\t205357\t事實上以這個案子來看的話也不到那種程度因為這一個流行保姆他有前後有收了三個小孩子的這個托育那其中一個是自費的那不是全日的最後我也提到說保姆是因為保姆到底都是初次還是新手第一個也只不過我記得他兩三個月他就出養了所以事實上並沒有所謂的長期合作的關係\n206738\t220654\t我是指這個社工跟這個保姆的信任感我指的是這個這個信任感是沒有什麼理由的信任感這個之前質詢我有提到那個監察委員王美玉的報告那時候我有提到說其實這個裡面的內容報告很值得衛福部做參考\n221775\t240332\t那這個報告中有指出2019到2011月額略事件失略者從當中可以看到看第一個保姆就是有關兒保安置保姆都列在其中那很遺憾的近年近期來這個保姆失略的這個案件層出不窮前幾天高雄五月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折\n242415\t260976\t以及內商疑似保姆失孽,目前羈押中。2023年4月,基隆3歲孩子橫踩腹部長期施暴,最後肝臟破裂死亡。2022年底,台中1歲清水的小女嬰小桃子遭到保姆失孽,顱內出血,併發缺氧性腦病變而身亡。\n261977\t279957\t那涉案的許多保姆大多不是新手喔都是已經照顧過很多孩子的保姆所以我想提醒部長保姆施暴是需要衛福部花更多的心力去瞭解因為每個孩子都是寶貝政府是不是應該更積極介入有一些機制淘汰不適任的保姆\n281789\t299046\t那聯合國有一個兒童權利公寓一直都呼籲孩子最需要的就是回歸到家庭或社區所以家外安置的優先次序是以親屬為優先其次是寄養家庭然後才是機構並且盡可能讓這個機構是小規模化部長你認為這個跟我們現況一致嗎\n304232\t331512\t事實上也差不多啦以目前來講的話當然就是說機構還有企業家庭部長覺得差不多部長對方向上面差不多我們的兒少全法實行系的第10條也有相關規定這個家外安置的數據第一個就是適當的親屬順位二就是與兒少有長期正向穩定依附關係的這個第三人等那部長請問您知道您覺得方向一致你知道我們親屬安置的比率嗎\n333246\t348687\t親屬安置的比例應該不是很高我讓部長知道安置在機構的孩子現在是六成百分之六十親屬安置只有百分之三而且安置在機構的小孩有一成多是六歲以下\n349768\t378201\t所以我想不論是基於情理或法律規定甚至是國際這個兒童權利公約凱凱本來是應該在他所謂的長期正向穩定依附的關係的這位保母中讓他繼續待在那裡都是最好的方式何況這位保母也表示願意出養但是凱凱被永久的剝奪了這樣的一個機會我是報告部長部長請特別看一下這個序號21號我把它框起來你讀到這些\n379386\t393561\t文字的時候真的令人心痛憤慨這個孩子的家庭他經過16次兒少保護通報脆弱家庭自殺防治有毒品前科還有酒駕等等通報我們的社會安全網根本沒有接觸他\n394642\t420242\t有想過要接觸他嗎?還是我敢呢?我不知道這個孩子後續如何我很不敢再想下去也不願意想因為我不知道他會不會成為另外一個事實上已經離開人世的一個孩子那根據臺大這個劉淑彤教授研究從2011年這個這一張對到2016年有68件重大的惡劣事件其中四分之一的孩子過往有受暴食\n421638\t442288\t在2019到2020年4月期間有43件重大額虐事件,其中5件不曾被通報,但是有38件雖然有進入政府相關的服務系統或利用了所謂福利資源,甚至多次被通報,但防務網終究沒有接觸他們,反而發生虐死或重大傷害的悲劇。」\n443909\t463446\t所以部長我想說的是這兩個狀況必須趕快處理第一個就是通報的黑書第二個是通報後沒有及時的有效處理或追蹤有時候社工在家訪中因為他們可能誤評就是沒有正確的去評估所以沒有開案所以這兩個狀況是不是應該可以立刻進行檢討部長您同意嗎\n467691\t479848\t衛福部需要努力填補的漏洞許多專家學者指出國健署的六歲以下兒童死因回溯分析沒有涵蓋所有死因的小孩\n481029\t495193\t缺乏針對兒、少、虐待事件的分析部分。」比較偏重公衛嘛,因為是公衛角度去做。當然公衛角度切度很好,因為是從預防的角度去看。那我想跟部長分享實務上會出現幾個狀況,就是國健署有委託幾個縣市在做實驗計畫,請各縣市提供各案,並由各局處來做這個討論。但是因為局處不會直接瞭解這個小孩子的情況,所以能夠討論的成效其實是有限的。\n506636\t526039\t二、有專家反映中央兒校權益小組討論時,能夠死因回溯報告中與兒虐的部分相對比較少。第三、優某縣市提出討論其中報告中有時候根本就沒有兒虐的部分,都是意外事件,所以讓參與者沒有機會就兒虐的部分來做\n526459\t543251\t討論。」\n543391\t571658\t所以因此做死亡這個根本原因分析其實要耗費很多資源那我也希望說衛福部跟國健署有這個認知就是說其實有時候資源要盤點然後做改善計畫那劉教授的研究報告另外研究報告也提到說可能因為害怕中央中央究責所以事實上地方呈報中央的這個報告當中有很多失真或不完整在這個過程當中可能長官都幾度修改所以部長與事實可能不符的這個檢討報告\n573098\t588952\t有意義嗎?」這個就是請你了解有這個狀況,因為這個報告中都有指出那2022年南投縣一名4歲女童童童她遭遇母親男友虐殺致死那那個案件其實有很多的漏洞,包括社工物品一個另外一個漏洞就是轉診時醫師未能及時發現這小朋友是有腦部傷勢的\n591815\t596838\t那當時衛福部的解釋是說因為沒有照會該醫院比較熟悉兒少議題的這個醫師啦真的很遺憾那我知道衛福部已經啟動了這個幼兒專責醫師制度不過我們上去看目前還是沒有空空的目前還沒有相關報告那這個報告這個制度是不是能夠讓這個接觸額內案件的醫師們能夠熟悉兒少這個保護的議題是不是後續的成效醫師的涵蓋率也能夠請衛福部多努力\n621791\t642940\t而那個幼兒專責醫師的制度,即使只是另外提供一個篩選的一個制度,讓這一個如果出現額內的,多一道可以來早期把它發現的一個機制。謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。謝謝陳昭之委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。\n","txt":"發言。」謝謝主席。有請薛部長。\n委員長。部長早。部長,我把衛福部上個月的報告書跟檢察官的起訴書做了比對。那這個灰色的部分是衛福部報告書,紅色底的部分是檢察官的起訴書。那起訴書寫得非常的清楚,從9月1號到12月23號,將近4個月的時間,劉姓保母和她的姊妹接連對凱凱實行了很多的這個,做了很多額虐的行為。7月7號開始用指甲刮\n凱凱的右頸部,在住家中捆綁凱凱,甚至把右腳踩入水桶,罰他裸體躺地上,用腳踹他、毆打他等等,導致凱凱脖子有撕裂傷,全身多處新舊不同程度的頓挫、擦傷痕,大血管塌陷,兩側額頂淤青,陰囊裂傷。」\n多處遺傷皮下組織出血壞死以及血液裡面組織是淤積的身體甚至因為長期的捆綁導致四肢變形不對稱\n但是在兒扶社公司的報告中,僅簡略地記載了這個額頭淤青還有孩子比較安靜,那就連孩子掉了四顆牙,他這個保姆變成是磨牙脫落的荒唐理由社公司照單全收,那12月5號社工的約訪不成之後,保姆後續都用LINE跟電話來聯繫\n回報社工沒有察覺異狀我覺得這都是因為所謂的保母過去和兒童出養合作的經驗良好的信任但是其實衛福部早就有規定這種訪視是要用不約訪的方式就是不約訪的方式但是社工保母在這次是多採約訪的方式所以他可能因此沒有辦法查到真相\n那沒有人否認第一線的社工的非常的辛苦但是我還是想問為何社工的訪視卻沒有對孩子身上產生這個瘀青等等有所警覺那我必須指出這個透過長期合作培養出來的所謂的信任感其實他是要接受這個外部機制的挑戰因為這種信任感到底是對孩子有利還是有害部長請問您覺得這個是個案還是系統性的問題\n這案子當然是一個個案,因為那麼沒有人性的人應該不會是同案的。但是剛剛委員所提到的,這個所謂的這個互相信任,社工…因為他們長期合作?\n事實上以這個案子來看的話也不到那種程度因為這一個流行保姆他有前後有收了三個小孩子的這個托育那其中一個是自費的那不是全日的最後我也提到說保姆是因為保姆到底都是初次還是新手第一個也只不過我記得他兩三個月他就出養了所以事實上並沒有所謂的長期合作的關係\n我是指這個社工跟這個保姆的信任感我指的是這個這個信任感是沒有什麼理由的信任感這個之前質詢我有提到那個監察委員王美玉的報告那時候我有提到說其實這個裡面的內容報告很值得衛福部做參考\n那這個報告中有指出2019到2011月額略事件失略者從當中可以看到看第一個保姆就是有關兒保安置保姆都列在其中那很遺憾的近年近期來這個保姆失略的這個案件層出不窮前幾天高雄五月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折\n以及內商疑似保姆失孽,目前羈押中。2023年4月,基隆3歲孩子橫踩腹部長期施暴,最後肝臟破裂死亡。2022年底,台中1歲清水的小女嬰小桃子遭到保姆失孽,顱內出血,併發缺氧性腦病變而身亡。\n那涉案的許多保姆大多不是新手喔都是已經照顧過很多孩子的保姆所以我想提醒部長保姆施暴是需要衛福部花更多的心力去瞭解因為每個孩子都是寶貝政府是不是應該更積極介入有一些機制淘汰不適任的保姆\n那聯合國有一個兒童權利公寓一直都呼籲孩子最需要的就是回歸到家庭或社區所以家外安置的優先次序是以親屬為優先其次是寄養家庭然後才是機構並且盡可能讓這個機構是小規模化部長你認為這個跟我們現況一致嗎\n事實上也差不多啦以目前來講的話當然就是說機構還有企業家庭部長覺得差不多部長對方向上面差不多我們的兒少全法實行系的第10條也有相關規定這個家外安置的數據第一個就是適當的親屬順位二就是與兒少有長期正向穩定依附關係的這個第三人等那部長請問您知道您覺得方向一致你知道我們親屬安置的比率嗎\n親屬安置的比例應該不是很高我讓部長知道安置在機構的孩子現在是六成百分之六十親屬安置只有百分之三而且安置在機構的小孩有一成多是六歲以下\n所以我想不論是基於情理或法律規定甚至是國際這個兒童權利公約凱凱本來是應該在他所謂的長期正向穩定依附的關係的這位保母中讓他繼續待在那裡都是最好的方式何況這位保母也表示願意出養但是凱凱被永久的剝奪了這樣的一個機會我是報告部長部長請特別看一下這個序號21號我把它框起來你讀到這些\n文字的時候真的令人心痛憤慨這個孩子的家庭他經過16次兒少保護通報脆弱家庭自殺防治有毒品前科還有酒駕等等通報我們的社會安全網根本沒有接觸他\n有想過要接觸他嗎?還是我敢呢?我不知道這個孩子後續如何我很不敢再想下去也不願意想因為我不知道他會不會成為另外一個事實上已經離開人世的一個孩子那根據臺大這個劉淑彤教授研究從2011年這個這一張對到2016年有68件重大的惡劣事件其中四分之一的孩子過往有受暴食\n在2019到2020年4月期間有43件重大額虐事件,其中5件不曾被通報,但是有38件雖然有進入政府相關的服務系統或利用了所謂福利資源,甚至多次被通報,但防務網終究沒有接觸他們,反而發生虐死或重大傷害的悲劇。」\n所以部長我想說的是這兩個狀況必須趕快處理第一個就是通報的黑書第二個是通報後沒有及時的有效處理或追蹤有時候社工在家訪中因為他們可能誤評就是沒有正確的去評估所以沒有開案所以這兩個狀況是不是應該可以立刻進行檢討部長您同意嗎\n衛福部需要努力填補的漏洞許多專家學者指出國健署的六歲以下兒童死因回溯分析沒有涵蓋所有死因的小孩\n缺乏針對兒、少、虐待事件的分析部分。」比較偏重公衛嘛,因為是公衛角度去做。當然公衛角度切度很好,因為是從預防的角度去看。那我想跟部長分享實務上會出現幾個狀況,就是國健署有委託幾個縣市在做實驗計畫,請各縣市提供各案,並由各局處來做這個討論。但是因為局處不會直接瞭解這個小孩子的情況,所以能夠討論的成效其實是有限的。\n二、有專家反映中央兒校權益小組討論時,能夠死因回溯報告中與兒虐的部分相對比較少。第三、優某縣市提出討論其中報告中有時候根本就沒有兒虐的部分,都是意外事件,所以讓參與者沒有機會就兒虐的部分來做\n討論。」\n所以因此做死亡這個根本原因分析其實要耗費很多資源那我也希望說衛福部跟國健署有這個認知就是說其實有時候資源要盤點然後做改善計畫那劉教授的研究報告另外研究報告也提到說可能因為害怕中央中央究責所以事實上地方呈報中央的這個報告當中有很多失真或不完整在這個過程當中可能長官都幾度修改所以部長與事實可能不符的這個檢討報告\n有意義嗎?」這個就是請你了解有這個狀況,因為這個報告中都有指出那2022年南投縣一名4歲女童童童她遭遇母親男友虐殺致死那那個案件其實有很多的漏洞,包括社工物品一個另外一個漏洞就是轉診時醫師未能及時發現這小朋友是有腦部傷勢的\n那當時衛福部的解釋是說因為沒有照會該醫院比較熟悉兒少議題的這個醫師啦真的很遺憾那我知道衛福部已經啟動了這個幼兒專責醫師制度不過我們上去看目前還是沒有空空的目前還沒有相關報告那這個報告這個制度是不是能夠讓這個接觸額內案件的醫師們能夠熟悉兒少這個保護的議題是不是後續的成效醫師的涵蓋率也能夠請衛福部多努力\n而那個幼兒專責醫師的制度,即使只是另外提供一個篩選的一個制度,讓這一個如果出現額內的,多一道可以來早期把它發現的一個機制。謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。謝謝陳昭之委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.169 --> 00:06.737\n發言。」謝謝主席。有請薛部長。\n\n00:12.694 --> 00:39.494\n委員長。部長早。部長,我把衛福部上個月的報告書跟檢察官的起訴書做了比對。那這個灰色的部分是衛福部報告書,紅色底的部分是檢察官的起訴書。那起訴書寫得非常的清楚,從9月1號到12月23號,將近4個月的時間,劉姓保母和她的姊妹接連對凱凱實行了很多的這個,做了很多額虐的行為。7月7號開始用指甲刮\n\n00:40.955 --> 01:00.332\n凱凱的右頸部,在住家中捆綁凱凱,甚至把右腳踩入水桶,罰他裸體躺地上,用腳踹他、毆打他等等,導致凱凱脖子有撕裂傷,全身多處新舊不同程度的頓挫、擦傷痕,大血管塌陷,兩側額頂淤青,陰囊裂傷。」\n\n01:04.716 --> 01:15.327\n多處遺傷皮下組織出血壞死以及血液裡面組織是淤積的身體甚至因為長期的捆綁導致四肢變形不對稱\n\n01:18.598 --> 01:40.649\n但是在兒扶社公司的報告中,僅簡略地記載了這個額頭淤青還有孩子比較安靜,那就連孩子掉了四顆牙,他這個保姆變成是磨牙脫落的荒唐理由社公司照單全收,那12月5號社工的約訪不成之後,保姆後續都用LINE跟電話來聯繫\n\n01:43.690 --> 01:48.712\n回報社工沒有察覺異狀我覺得這都是因為所謂的保母過去和兒童出養合作的經驗良好的信任但是其實衛福部早就有規定這種訪視是要用不約訪的方式就是不約訪的方式但是社工保母在這次是多採約訪的方式所以他可能因此沒有辦法查到真相\n\n02:08.937 --> 02:35.546\n那沒有人否認第一線的社工的非常的辛苦但是我還是想問為何社工的訪視卻沒有對孩子身上產生這個瘀青等等有所警覺那我必須指出這個透過長期合作培養出來的所謂的信任感其實他是要接受這個外部機制的挑戰因為這種信任感到底是對孩子有利還是有害部長請問您覺得這個是個案還是系統性的問題\n\n02:41.268 --> 02:56.998\n這案子當然是一個個案,因為那麼沒有人性的人應該不會是同案的。但是剛剛委員所提到的,這個所謂的這個互相信任,社工…因為他們長期合作?\n\n02:57.738 --> 03:25.357\n事實上以這個案子來看的話也不到那種程度因為這一個流行保姆他有前後有收了三個小孩子的這個托育那其中一個是自費的那不是全日的最後我也提到說保姆是因為保姆到底都是初次還是新手第一個也只不過我記得他兩三個月他就出養了所以事實上並沒有所謂的長期合作的關係\n\n03:26.738 --> 03:40.654\n我是指這個社工跟這個保姆的信任感我指的是這個這個信任感是沒有什麼理由的信任感這個之前質詢我有提到那個監察委員王美玉的報告那時候我有提到說其實這個裡面的內容報告很值得衛福部做參考\n\n03:41.775 --> 04:00.332\n那這個報告中有指出2019到2011月額略事件失略者從當中可以看到看第一個保姆就是有關兒保安置保姆都列在其中那很遺憾的近年近期來這個保姆失略的這個案件層出不窮前幾天高雄五月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折\n\n04:02.415 --> 04:20.976\n以及內商疑似保姆失孽,目前羈押中。2023年4月,基隆3歲孩子橫踩腹部長期施暴,最後肝臟破裂死亡。2022年底,台中1歲清水的小女嬰小桃子遭到保姆失孽,顱內出血,併發缺氧性腦病變而身亡。\n\n04:21.977 --> 04:39.957\n那涉案的許多保姆大多不是新手喔都是已經照顧過很多孩子的保姆所以我想提醒部長保姆施暴是需要衛福部花更多的心力去瞭解因為每個孩子都是寶貝政府是不是應該更積極介入有一些機制淘汰不適任的保姆\n\n04:41.789 --> 04:59.046\n那聯合國有一個兒童權利公寓一直都呼籲孩子最需要的就是回歸到家庭或社區所以家外安置的優先次序是以親屬為優先其次是寄養家庭然後才是機構並且盡可能讓這個機構是小規模化部長你認為這個跟我們現況一致嗎\n\n05:04.232 --> 05:31.512\n事實上也差不多啦以目前來講的話當然就是說機構還有企業家庭部長覺得差不多部長對方向上面差不多我們的兒少全法實行系的第10條也有相關規定這個家外安置的數據第一個就是適當的親屬順位二就是與兒少有長期正向穩定依附關係的這個第三人等那部長請問您知道您覺得方向一致你知道我們親屬安置的比率嗎\n\n05:33.246 --> 05:48.687\n親屬安置的比例應該不是很高我讓部長知道安置在機構的孩子現在是六成百分之六十親屬安置只有百分之三而且安置在機構的小孩有一成多是六歲以下\n\n05:49.768 --> 06:18.201\n所以我想不論是基於情理或法律規定甚至是國際這個兒童權利公約凱凱本來是應該在他所謂的長期正向穩定依附的關係的這位保母中讓他繼續待在那裡都是最好的方式何況這位保母也表示願意出養但是凱凱被永久的剝奪了這樣的一個機會我是報告部長部長請特別看一下這個序號21號我把它框起來你讀到這些\n\n06:19.386 --> 06:33.561\n文字的時候真的令人心痛憤慨這個孩子的家庭他經過16次兒少保護通報脆弱家庭自殺防治有毒品前科還有酒駕等等通報我們的社會安全網根本沒有接觸他\n\n06:34.642 --> 07:00.242\n有想過要接觸他嗎?還是我敢呢?我不知道這個孩子後續如何我很不敢再想下去也不願意想因為我不知道他會不會成為另外一個事實上已經離開人世的一個孩子那根據臺大這個劉淑彤教授研究從2011年這個這一張對到2016年有68件重大的惡劣事件其中四分之一的孩子過往有受暴食\n\n07:01.638 --> 07:22.288\n在2019到2020年4月期間有43件重大額虐事件,其中5件不曾被通報,但是有38件雖然有進入政府相關的服務系統或利用了所謂福利資源,甚至多次被通報,但防務網終究沒有接觸他們,反而發生虐死或重大傷害的悲劇。」\n\n07:23.909 --> 07:43.446\n所以部長我想說的是這兩個狀況必須趕快處理第一個就是通報的黑書第二個是通報後沒有及時的有效處理或追蹤有時候社工在家訪中因為他們可能誤評就是沒有正確的去評估所以沒有開案所以這兩個狀況是不是應該可以立刻進行檢討部長您同意嗎\n\n07:47.691 --> 07:59.848\n衛福部需要努力填補的漏洞許多專家學者指出國健署的六歲以下兒童死因回溯分析沒有涵蓋所有死因的小孩\n\n08:01.029 --> 08:15.193\n缺乏針對兒、少、虐待事件的分析部分。」比較偏重公衛嘛,因為是公衛角度去做。當然公衛角度切度很好,因為是從預防的角度去看。那我想跟部長分享實務上會出現幾個狀況,就是國健署有委託幾個縣市在做實驗計畫,請各縣市提供各案,並由各局處來做這個討論。但是因為局處不會直接瞭解這個小孩子的情況,所以能夠討論的成效其實是有限的。\n\n08:26.636 --> 08:46.039\n二、有專家反映中央兒校權益小組討論時,能夠死因回溯報告中與兒虐的部分相對比較少。第三、優某縣市提出討論其中報告中有時候根本就沒有兒虐的部分,都是意外事件,所以讓參與者沒有機會就兒虐的部分來做\n\n09:03.391 --> 09:31.658\n所以因此做死亡這個根本原因分析其實要耗費很多資源那我也希望說衛福部跟國健署有這個認知就是說其實有時候資源要盤點然後做改善計畫那劉教授的研究報告另外研究報告也提到說可能因為害怕中央中央究責所以事實上地方呈報中央的這個報告當中有很多失真或不完整在這個過程當中可能長官都幾度修改所以部長與事實可能不符的這個檢討報告\n\n09:33.098 --> 09:48.952\n有意義嗎?」這個就是請你了解有這個狀況,因為這個報告中都有指出那2022年南投縣一名4歲女童童童她遭遇母親男友虐殺致死那那個案件其實有很多的漏洞,包括社工物品一個另外一個漏洞就是轉診時醫師未能及時發現這小朋友是有腦部傷勢的\n\n09:51.815 --> 09:56.838\n那當時衛福部的解釋是說因為沒有照會該醫院比較熟悉兒少議題的這個醫師啦真的很遺憾那我知道衛福部已經啟動了這個幼兒專責醫師制度不過我們上去看目前還是沒有空空的目前還沒有相關報告那這個報告這個制度是不是能夠讓這個接觸額內案件的醫師們能夠熟悉兒少這個保護的議題是不是後續的成效醫師的涵蓋率也能夠請衛福部多努力\n\n10:21.791 --> 10:42.940\n而那個幼兒專責醫師的制度,即使只是另外提供一個篩選的一個制度,讓這一個如果出現額內的,多一道可以來早期把它發現的一個機制。謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。謝謝陳昭之委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.169,"end":6.737,"text":"發言。」謝謝主席。有請薛部長。"},{"start":12.694,"end":39.494,"text":"委員長。部長早。部長,我把衛福部上個月的報告書跟檢察官的起訴書做了比對。那這個灰色的部分是衛福部報告書,紅色底的部分是檢察官的起訴書。那起訴書寫得非常的清楚,從9月1號到12月23號,將近4個月的時間,劉姓保母和她的姊妹接連對凱凱實行了很多的這個,做了很多額虐的行為。7月7號開始用指甲刮"},{"start":40.955,"end":60.332,"text":"凱凱的右頸部,在住家中捆綁凱凱,甚至把右腳踩入水桶,罰他裸體躺地上,用腳踹他、毆打他等等,導致凱凱脖子有撕裂傷,全身多處新舊不同程度的頓挫、擦傷痕,大血管塌陷,兩側額頂淤青,陰囊裂傷。」"},{"start":64.716,"end":75.327,"text":"多處遺傷皮下組織出血壞死以及血液裡面組織是淤積的身體甚至因為長期的捆綁導致四肢變形不對稱"},{"start":78.598,"end":100.649,"text":"但是在兒扶社公司的報告中,僅簡略地記載了這個額頭淤青還有孩子比較安靜,那就連孩子掉了四顆牙,他這個保姆變成是磨牙脫落的荒唐理由社公司照單全收,那12月5號社工的約訪不成之後,保姆後續都用LINE跟電話來聯繫"},{"start":103.69,"end":108.712,"text":"回報社工沒有察覺異狀我覺得這都是因為所謂的保母過去和兒童出養合作的經驗良好的信任但是其實衛福部早就有規定這種訪視是要用不約訪的方式就是不約訪的方式但是社工保母在這次是多採約訪的方式所以他可能因此沒有辦法查到真相"},{"start":128.937,"end":155.546,"text":"那沒有人否認第一線的社工的非常的辛苦但是我還是想問為何社工的訪視卻沒有對孩子身上產生這個瘀青等等有所警覺那我必須指出這個透過長期合作培養出來的所謂的信任感其實他是要接受這個外部機制的挑戰因為這種信任感到底是對孩子有利還是有害部長請問您覺得這個是個案還是系統性的問題"},{"start":161.268,"end":176.998,"text":"這案子當然是一個個案,因為那麼沒有人性的人應該不會是同案的。但是剛剛委員所提到的,這個所謂的這個互相信任,社工…因為他們長期合作?"},{"start":177.738,"end":205.357,"text":"事實上以這個案子來看的話也不到那種程度因為這一個流行保姆他有前後有收了三個小孩子的這個托育那其中一個是自費的那不是全日的最後我也提到說保姆是因為保姆到底都是初次還是新手第一個也只不過我記得他兩三個月他就出養了所以事實上並沒有所謂的長期合作的關係"},{"start":206.738,"end":220.654,"text":"我是指這個社工跟這個保姆的信任感我指的是這個這個信任感是沒有什麼理由的信任感這個之前質詢我有提到那個監察委員王美玉的報告那時候我有提到說其實這個裡面的內容報告很值得衛福部做參考"},{"start":221.775,"end":240.332,"text":"那這個報告中有指出2019到2011月額略事件失略者從當中可以看到看第一個保姆就是有關兒保安置保姆都列在其中那很遺憾的近年近期來這個保姆失略的這個案件層出不窮前幾天高雄五月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折"},{"start":242.415,"end":260.976,"text":"以及內商疑似保姆失孽,目前羈押中。2023年4月,基隆3歲孩子橫踩腹部長期施暴,最後肝臟破裂死亡。2022年底,台中1歲清水的小女嬰小桃子遭到保姆失孽,顱內出血,併發缺氧性腦病變而身亡。"},{"start":261.977,"end":279.957,"text":"那涉案的許多保姆大多不是新手喔都是已經照顧過很多孩子的保姆所以我想提醒部長保姆施暴是需要衛福部花更多的心力去瞭解因為每個孩子都是寶貝政府是不是應該更積極介入有一些機制淘汰不適任的保姆"},{"start":281.789,"end":299.046,"text":"那聯合國有一個兒童權利公寓一直都呼籲孩子最需要的就是回歸到家庭或社區所以家外安置的優先次序是以親屬為優先其次是寄養家庭然後才是機構並且盡可能讓這個機構是小規模化部長你認為這個跟我們現況一致嗎"},{"start":304.232,"end":331.512,"text":"事實上也差不多啦以目前來講的話當然就是說機構還有企業家庭部長覺得差不多部長對方向上面差不多我們的兒少全法實行系的第10條也有相關規定這個家外安置的數據第一個就是適當的親屬順位二就是與兒少有長期正向穩定依附關係的這個第三人等那部長請問您知道您覺得方向一致你知道我們親屬安置的比率嗎"},{"start":333.246,"end":348.687,"text":"親屬安置的比例應該不是很高我讓部長知道安置在機構的孩子現在是六成百分之六十親屬安置只有百分之三而且安置在機構的小孩有一成多是六歲以下"},{"start":349.768,"end":378.201,"text":"所以我想不論是基於情理或法律規定甚至是國際這個兒童權利公約凱凱本來是應該在他所謂的長期正向穩定依附的關係的這位保母中讓他繼續待在那裡都是最好的方式何況這位保母也表示願意出養但是凱凱被永久的剝奪了這樣的一個機會我是報告部長部長請特別看一下這個序號21號我把它框起來你讀到這些"},{"start":379.386,"end":393.561,"text":"文字的時候真的令人心痛憤慨這個孩子的家庭他經過16次兒少保護通報脆弱家庭自殺防治有毒品前科還有酒駕等等通報我們的社會安全網根本沒有接觸他"},{"start":394.642,"end":420.242,"text":"有想過要接觸他嗎?還是我敢呢?我不知道這個孩子後續如何我很不敢再想下去也不願意想因為我不知道他會不會成為另外一個事實上已經離開人世的一個孩子那根據臺大這個劉淑彤教授研究從2011年這個這一張對到2016年有68件重大的惡劣事件其中四分之一的孩子過往有受暴食"},{"start":421.638,"end":442.288,"text":"在2019到2020年4月期間有43件重大額虐事件,其中5件不曾被通報,但是有38件雖然有進入政府相關的服務系統或利用了所謂福利資源,甚至多次被通報,但防務網終究沒有接觸他們,反而發生虐死或重大傷害的悲劇。」"},{"start":443.909,"end":463.446,"text":"所以部長我想說的是這兩個狀況必須趕快處理第一個就是通報的黑書第二個是通報後沒有及時的有效處理或追蹤有時候社工在家訪中因為他們可能誤評就是沒有正確的去評估所以沒有開案所以這兩個狀況是不是應該可以立刻進行檢討部長您同意嗎"},{"start":467.691,"end":479.848,"text":"衛福部需要努力填補的漏洞許多專家學者指出國健署的六歲以下兒童死因回溯分析沒有涵蓋所有死因的小孩"},{"start":481.029,"end":495.193,"text":"缺乏針對兒、少、虐待事件的分析部分。」比較偏重公衛嘛,因為是公衛角度去做。當然公衛角度切度很好,因為是從預防的角度去看。那我想跟部長分享實務上會出現幾個狀況,就是國健署有委託幾個縣市在做實驗計畫,請各縣市提供各案,並由各局處來做這個討論。但是因為局處不會直接瞭解這個小孩子的情況,所以能夠討論的成效其實是有限的。"},{"start":506.636,"end":526.039,"text":"二、有專家反映中央兒校權益小組討論時,能夠死因回溯報告中與兒虐的部分相對比較少。第三、優某縣市提出討論其中報告中有時候根本就沒有兒虐的部分,都是意外事件,所以讓參與者沒有機會就兒虐的部分來做"},{"start":526.459,"end":543.251,"text":"討論。」"},{"start":543.391,"end":571.658,"text":"所以因此做死亡這個根本原因分析其實要耗費很多資源那我也希望說衛福部跟國健署有這個認知就是說其實有時候資源要盤點然後做改善計畫那劉教授的研究報告另外研究報告也提到說可能因為害怕中央中央究責所以事實上地方呈報中央的這個報告當中有很多失真或不完整在這個過程當中可能長官都幾度修改所以部長與事實可能不符的這個檢討報告"},{"start":573.098,"end":588.952,"text":"有意義嗎?」這個就是請你了解有這個狀況,因為這個報告中都有指出那2022年南投縣一名4歲女童童童她遭遇母親男友虐殺致死那那個案件其實有很多的漏洞,包括社工物品一個另外一個漏洞就是轉診時醫師未能及時發現這小朋友是有腦部傷勢的"},{"start":591.815,"end":596.838,"text":"那當時衛福部的解釋是說因為沒有照會該醫院比較熟悉兒少議題的這個醫師啦真的很遺憾那我知道衛福部已經啟動了這個幼兒專責醫師制度不過我們上去看目前還是沒有空空的目前還沒有相關報告那這個報告這個制度是不是能夠讓這個接觸額內案件的醫師們能夠熟悉兒少這個保護的議題是不是後續的成效醫師的涵蓋率也能夠請衛福部多努力"},{"start":621.791,"end":642.94,"text":"而那個幼兒專責醫師的制度,即使只是另外提供一個篩選的一個制度,讓這一個如果出現額內的,多一道可以來早期把它發現的一個機制。謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。謝謝陳昭之委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。"}]}}}}