{"id":151595,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151595","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb39037885f3442f3aeb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432ab1bf10904948a185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:22:01 - 09:33:42","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":701,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:33:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:22:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":309,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時22分）有請我們的部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早，當然今天事實上是講家暴，可是我覺得我更為關心一個問題，就是我們從100年那時候有感受到少子化之後，開始有一些所謂的公共托嬰中心，甚至比較鼓勵保母來帶孩子，後來又推準公，所以有越來越多孩子進入到家外，我覺得對於家外，事實上政府是責無旁貸，家內我覺得當然還有很多要努力的。目前這樣看起來，剛剛昭姿委員也在提，就是我們不斷不斷地有一兩起案子的發生，有時候就是死亡，不管是托嬰中心或者是保母，就誠如我講的，我們孩子已經生得很少，去年只生到十三萬五，那在一個都不能少的狀態裡邊，質要更好，如果一旦被暴力對待的話，怎麼去回復？搞不好他的身心都沒有辦法回復。","事實上，我們托嬰中心和保母的數量是在成長當中，因為這是政府提出托育政策在鼓勵，所以托育中心在5年內成長了1.5倍，保母數量也是往上揚的，可是保母跟教師中的施虐者也成長了2到3倍，也就是說，托嬰中心成長1.5倍，可是施虐者成長2到3倍，我想這也是很多父母為之憂心的地方。我在這邊也要提醒，我們分不出來這個保母講的是居家的保母還是托嬰中心的，因為他們都統稱托育人員，可是你現在分成一個叫保母、一個叫教師，這個教師講的是托育人員，因為托育中心稱的是托育人員，就不太知道是否是幼兒園的老師，所以未來是不是可以數據分流？因為我們常常講有數據才能夠掌握問題，如果數據不清楚的話，就沒有辦法掌握問題。","好，我們來看對保母你怎麼從前面去管控，現在是專業訓練126小時以後考照，可是完全沒有兒虐的相關課程，放在兒少權法裡邊，事實上反而沒有辦法去對焦。那在職訓練課程的九大類裡邊也是有相同的問題，而且上這些課程的人事實上有沒有醫護背景？從你們辦法裡邊就知道，他只要擔任訪視員3年，基本上他就可以來擔任課程的老師，那他的背景經驗到底是什麼？所以有沒有特別針對兒虐評估的課程，要求須有醫護背景或兒少保護經驗的講師，而不是誰都可以上？沒有經過評估的人都可以上課，只要有3年實務經驗的人就可以，可是他的實務經驗是在做居家保母的訪視工作，而且現在居家保母的訪視員基本上沒有要求是社工、沒有要求必須相關科系畢業，所以只要大學畢業就可以進去，那我們就擔心這樣會不會有一些問題。","剛剛講的是保母，接下來我們就講訪視員，訪視員的訓練也是這樣，訪視員都有上這些課程嗎？如果你已經弄出兒虐評估的一些相關知能，有課程的實施計畫，他們都會上嗎？就我知道的，政府部門是上半年度辦一場，下半年度辦一場，要滿足全國的訪視員是沒辦法的，地方不辦，去年開始丟來地方辦，結果地方說它沒有財力辦，到最後也是中央辦，可是由中央辦，全臺灣有這麼多的訪視輔導員，他每天進門就要去看保母的孩子，可是他沒有能力的話，你怎麼可能去確保他的評估、診斷是OK的？還有我認為更為關鍵的一點就是師資背景到底是什麼，還有課程內容是誰規劃的。我為什麼這樣提？因為在講居家安全的時候，竟然有老師是在上命理，我不知道是不是因為流年很好就不會發生居家安全的事情？就是課程的目標跟內容事實上是不太一樣的，甚至標的物也是不太一樣，還有兒虐樣態有沒有統一，我覺得政府已經有做兒虐很久了，那為什麼每次到家外的時候負責認定的委員會要認定這些小孩子有沒有被虐待卻常常沒辦法去做，在之前我們也有跟保護司提過，就是你有這麼多年的經驗，為什麼不可以把兒虐的一些不當對待樣態找出來，讓各縣市政府可以有一個依據？各縣市政府常常行文給保護司這邊，結果就是說你們自己裁處、你們自己決定。可是如果地方政府事實上沒有這樣的能力，那怎麼去做這樣的裁處？最後還是影響到孩子的權益。","所以整個課程應該去定一些內容，如果衛福部本來就有兒科醫學會做的這樣一個版本，我不知道為什麼都沒有去用，這也是我覺得很疑惑的地方。再加上訪視真的蠻重要的，我們看到兒盟的檢討報告蠻特別的，它說部分不適應的行為跟兒虐行為是反應相仿、不易辨識，真的是這樣嗎？掉了4顆牙齒，指甲都被拔了，然後還說這個跟不適應的行為相仿，表示他沒有判斷的能力啊！可是檢討報告還是呈現這樣的狀況，那怎麼可能在未來去改進呢？根本就是不太可能啊！這個部分是不是應該也要請衛福部去做？我不知道部長這邊有沒有辦法做到。"],["薛部長瑞元：這需要長期來做，第一個，剛剛委員提到的其實是很重要的一點，但是我們可能之前沒有辦法去做得很好，就是蒐集資料的精確性，然後要去做分析，因為你如果不重視data的話，你根本就找不出來問題在哪裡。"],["林委員月琴：是，期待部長要做，能不能看重這件事情？因為一個孩子如果在童年有負面經驗的話，他未來長大以後得到很多疾病的可能性非常高。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過我必須提醒委員，應該是期待衛福部，而不是期待部長。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝部長，可是現在你還是在任內，也是要你下指令才有辦法做到，對我今天談的是不是接下來可以馬上跟進去做？訪視問題事實上層出不窮，我過去因為擔任過居家保母的外督，已經做了大概有10年，常常碰到這樣的一個問題，可是好像都沒有人要去解決，甚至今天有保母超收，訪視員訪視兩、三個小時，把孩子塞到陽臺，然後你要強迫他開房間的門讓你進到陽臺，可是孩子都滿頭大汗，在陽臺的風險也非常高，所以到底要怎麼去做？甚至有時候收托時間是晚上12點到凌晨6點，訪視員根本不可能在這個時間點去訪視、去看到小孩，可是這都是在衛福部裡面被允許的，這個時間點事實上是OK的。還有一點一直都沒有辦法突破，訪視員就在下面，管理員就是不讓他進去，今天我明明知道他有超收，可是抱歉，我就是不能進去，為什麼不去突破大廈管理條例這一塊？反而使得每一次超收，等他把孩子移到鄰居家去之後再讓管理員開門讓我進去，這樣子的話，到底有沒有辦法解決？沒有辦法解決啊！所以我不知道是否可以用兒少權法第七十條來請各個單位配合。","此外，這是很明顯的，兒盟這個案子──剴剴案是在下午時間進行訪視，然後他就說孩子睡眼惺忪，所以精神不振，他早就精神不振了，可是你不是早上去，竟然是用下午時間，甚至孩子在下午睡覺的話，你根本也沒辦法看到孩子的樣態，所以訪視員有沒有訪視的知能，怎麼會選擇下午時間去訪視？看到的一定不是真實的現象。","主席，不好意思，再給我2分鐘。各縣市作法不一，臺北市是記點，可是有些東西很嚴重，為什麼是記點我就不太瞭解，因為按照我們的居家管理登記辦法，裡面本來就敘明，如果訪視人員被拒絕訪視的話，就要馬上去做處理，這個是扣2分，扣2分會怎麼樣？扣2分不會怎麼樣，扣2分只會說還沒到達暫停媒合3個月，媽媽找保母幾乎都不是靠我們的居服中心媒合的，都是自己找的，那你這樣做有用嗎？即便他達到5分、達到3分也沒有用。有一些縣市是開改善單，如果事實上是已經超收了，為什麼還可以開改善單？繼續讓他改善，繼續超收嗎？那我就不太懂，到底衛福部有沒有掌握各縣市管理方式不一的情形？臺北市是採扣分制，新北市是開勸導單，中央有沒有統一的標準？要怎麼做？有的是要去輔導3次，都已經超收了，或是收托未回報，這些東西都沒有，甚至環境很糟，抱歉，就是一直勸導、勸導，他在勸導後不改善，你能怎麼辦？繼續再勸導嗎？所以我請衛福部是不是能夠統一瞭解所有縣市政府做的方式。","針對保母的部分，我主張以下這幾點，就是我們的師資背景要管理、建立兒虐樣態並定期更新，還有，我們一定要訓練專業性，以及是不是可以解決訪視員的困境？蒐集、彙整資料之後才一一去解決，該修法的就修法。","關於性剝削這一塊，希望你們明定主管機關的權責，不要都是讓大家看起來……媽媽真的叫4兄弟去掃地的時候，最後大家都沒掃地啦！就是大家都會推託，是不是可以明定事業主管機關，比照兒少權法跟性侵害犯罪防治法這樣子去做，還有強化我們的偵查能量？有一個專責機構去增訂性影像資料庫系統，才有辦法比對，然後偵查到犯罪，還有明定主管機關立即限制閱覽跟移除通知的權限，就是那個時間性。懲罰一定要對於有支付金額購買性剝削內容網站會員，還有，如有急迫性的話，請加快速度去止血，增加緊急資訊限制規定，以上，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151595","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151595","tool":"pyannote","id":"151595-pyannote"},"job_id":"flivS6S53XziiiWp","queued_at":"2024-05-31 19:34:57","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 19:34:57","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151595"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:34:58","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb39037885f3442f3aeb903698ddfaa754ad2ddfac4d3fd9eb710f13b80feb9a04e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:35:17","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:35:18","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-05-31 19:35:30","msg":"status: 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{\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 693.948, \"end\": 694.668, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 694.668, \"end\": 694.808, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 694.808, \"end\": 695.009, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"琴\", \"start\": 695.009, \"end\": 695.229, \"score\": 0.912}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 695.229, \"end\": 696.37, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 696.37, \"end\": 696.47, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 696.47, \"end\": 696.59, \"score\": 0.836}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"陳\"}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 696.59, \"end\": 696.751, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"輝\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 696.751, \"end\": 697.251, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 697.251, \"end\": 697.271, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,009 --> 00:00:07,033\n有請我們的部長,請薛部長。\n\n2\n00:00:15,612 --> 00:00:36,543\n部長早當然今天事實上是講家暴可是我覺得更為關心的是因為我們從一百年那時候有感受到少子化之後開始有一些的所謂的公共的托嬰中心甚至比較鼓勵保母來帶孩子那後來又推准工\n\n3\n00:00:37,236 --> 00:00:48,630\n所以孩子越來越多事實上是進入到家外那家外我覺得事實上是政府責無旁貸家內當然我覺得還有很多要努力的\n\n4\n00:00:50,993 --> 00:01:12,091\n下一頁。」所以目前這樣看起來,我想剛剛我們的那個趙志偉委員也在提,就是我們不斷不斷的有兩起的這樣的發生,有時候就是死亡,不管是拖延中心或者是保母。就正如我講的,我們孩子已經生得很少,去年生到13萬5,那一個都不能少的狀態裡邊,\n\n5\n00:01:13,292 --> 00:01:40,851\n甚至只要更好。」如果一旦被暴力對待的話怎麼去回復他搞不好身心都是沒有辦法回復的好下一頁所以我們的托嬰中心事實上和保姆數量是在成長當中因為這是政府的托嬰政策在鼓勵所以托嬰中心五年內成長了1.5倍那保姆呢也是往上揚的可是我們的施虐者呢事實上是保姆跟教師也成長了2.3倍也就是說\n\n6\n00:01:41,894 --> 00:02:09,966\n托嬰中心成長1.5倍,可是肆虐者事實上成長2到3倍。」這也是我想很多父母為之憂心的地方那在這邊也要提醒就是說我們還是分不出來這個保姆講的事實上是居家的保姆還是托嬰中心的因為他們都統稱托育人員可是你現在分的叫保姆一個叫教師這教師講的是托育人員因為托嬰中心稱的是托育人員所以不太照還是幼兒園的老師\n\n7\n00:02:10,686 --> 00:02:16,015\n所以是不是可以未來數據分流因為常常講說數據才能夠掌握問題如果數據不清楚的話就沒有辦法掌握問題下一頁\n\n8\n00:02:21,837 --> 00:02:50,556\n那我們就來看保姆你怎麼從前面去管控一個失知的訓練裡邊126小時這樣的一個考照完全沒有額略的一個相關課程放在額少全法裡邊反而事實上沒有辦法去對焦那在職訓練的九大類裡邊也是有相同的問題而且上這些課程的人事實上有沒有醫護背景可是從你們的辦法裡邊就知道他只要是在\n\n9\n00:02:52,918 --> 00:03:07,087\n也就是說他在擔任訪視員擔任三年他基本上就可以來擔任課程的老師那他的背景經驗到底是什麼所以有沒有針對於特別額略評估的課程須有醫護背景或者是他有兒少寶經驗的講師而不是\n\n10\n00:03:09,869 --> 00:03:32,064\n誰都可以上,沒有經過一個評估,這樣的老師都可以上課,因為你只有一個實務經驗三年就可以,可是實務經驗是在做居家保姆的訪視工作,而且現在居家保姆的訪視員基本上沒有要求社工,沒有要求一些相關科系,所以大家大學畢業就可以進去,那我們就有擔心說,那這樣子會不會有一些問題,下一頁。\n\n11\n00:03:35,489 --> 00:03:38,252\n保姆、訪視員訓練到底訪視員都上這些課程嗎?如果你已經弄出來是額內的評估的一些相關資能的話有課程的實施計畫都上嗎?就我知道\n\n12\n00:03:51,314 --> 00:04:19,529\n政府部門事商上半年度辦一場,下半年度辦一場,要滿足全國的訪視員是沒辦法,地方不辦,去年開始丟來地方辦,地方結果他說他沒有財力辦,最後也是中央辦,中央辦全台灣有這麼多的訪視輔導員,有沒有確保,可是他每天進門就要去看保護的孩子,可是他沒有能力的話,你怎麼可能去確保說他評估診斷是OK的,還有我更為關鍵的,失智背景到底是誰\n\n13\n00:04:21,369 --> 00:04:29,088\n還有呢?課程內容誰規劃的?」為什麼這樣提?因為在講居家安全的時候竟然有人老師是上\n\n14\n00:04:29,659 --> 00:04:57,962\n命理。」我就不知道說今天流年很好就不會發生居家安全事情嗎?那就是課程的目標跟內容事實上是不太一樣的齁。甚至當時標的物也是不太一樣的齁。還有額虐樣態有沒有統一?因為始終我覺得政府已經很久了已經有做額虐的那為什麼每次到家外的時候我們在認定委員會要認定說這小孩子有沒有被虐待的時候常常沒辦法去做。這個之前我們也跟保護師有提過就是說你有這麼多年的經驗為什麼不可以把\n\n15\n00:04:58,883 --> 00:05:18,564\n而略的一些不當對待樣態找出來,而來讓各縣市政府可有依據。」常常各縣市政府行文給我們的保護士這邊,就說那你們自己裁處,你們自己決定。可是如果地方政府,如果事實上沒有這樣的能力的話,那怎麼去做這樣的一個裁處,最後還是影響到孩子的權益。下一頁。\n\n16\n00:05:19,741 --> 00:05:32,854\n所以整個課程應該去制定一些如果我覺得衛福部本來就有兒科醫學會做的這樣一個版本我不知道為什麼都沒有去用這也是我覺得很疑惑的地方\n\n17\n00:05:33,581 --> 00:06:01,678\n那再加上防治真的蠻重要的我們看到額蒙的檢討報告蠻特別的他說部分不適應的行為跟額逆行為是反應相仿不易辨識真的是這樣嗎牙齒四顆掉了然後指甲都拔了然後還會說這個跟不適應的行為相仿表示他沒有判斷的能力啊報告還是呈現這樣的狀況那怎麼可能作為未來去做改進呢根本就是不太可能啊\n\n18\n00:06:03,100 --> 00:06:08,188\n這個部分是不是應該邀請衛福部,我不知道部長這邊有沒有辦法做到。」\n\n19\n00:06:10,211 --> 00:06:38,068\n這需要長期來做,那第一個剛剛委員提到的其實很重要一點,但是我們可能之前沒有辦法去做得很好的,就是收集資料的精確性,然後要去做分析,你如果不重視data的話,你根本就找不出來問題在哪裡。是,期待部長,是不是我覺得能不能針對這件事情很看重,\n\n20\n00:06:38,735 --> 00:07:03,837\n一個孩子如果他有同年有負面經驗的話對他未來長大生很多疾病的可能性非常的高我必須提醒委員應該是期待衛福部不是期待部長謝謝部長就是那我覺得衛福部就是那可是現在你還是在任內那也是要你的指令下下去才有辦法做到\n\n21\n00:07:04,622 --> 00:07:33,601\n那今天談了是不是就能夠接下來可以馬上跟進去做好下一頁防治問題事實上層出不窮這個我過去因為擔任過我們居家保姆的外都已經做了大概有10年常常碰到這樣的一個問題可是好像似乎都沒有人要去解決甚至今天保姆超收防治員防治兩三個小時孩子把他塞陽台然後你要強迫他開那個\n\n22\n00:07:34,758 --> 00:07:45,236\n房間門讓你進到陽台可是孩子滿頭大汗在陽台風險也非常高可是到底怎麼去做甚至有時候你收託時間是晚上12點到凌晨一點房事員根本不可能在這個時間點\n\n23\n00:07:46,403 --> 00:08:12,672\n去防治去看到小孩。」可是這都是在衛福部裡邊被允許的說這個時間點事實上是OK的還有一直都沒有辦法突破防治員就在底下管理員就是不讓他進去那今天我明明知道他有超收可是抱歉我就是不能進去那一直都為什麼不去突破大廈管理條例這一塊然後使得反而每一次超收他把孩子移到鄰居家去之後\n\n24\n00:08:13,072 --> 00:08:21,239\n他再讓管理員開門才讓我進去那這樣子的話到底有沒有辦法解決沒有辦法解決啊所以我不知道是否可以用兒少全法70條來請各個單位配合還有這是很明顯的\n\n25\n00:08:25,834 --> 00:08:40,142\n而夢的這個案子開開案是在下午時間然後就說孩子睡眠輕鬆所以呢精神不振他早就精神不振了可是你不是早上你竟然是用下午時間甚至孩子在下午睡覺的話你根本也沒辦法看到孩子的樣態所以訪視員有沒有訪視的資能怎麼會去選擇下午時間去訪視\n\n26\n00:08:44,984 --> 00:09:13,209\n一定看到的不是真實的現象。」下一頁主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那各縣是做法不一臺北市是祭典祭典可是有些東西很嚴重為什麼祭典我就不太瞭解因為按照我們的居家管理登記辦法裡邊本來就述明說你如果訪視人員拒絕訪視的話本來就要馬上去做處理又扣兩分扣兩分會怎麼樣扣兩分不會怎麼樣扣兩分呢\n\n27\n00:09:13,789 --> 00:09:37,277\n只會是說還沒到達媒合暫停媒合三個月保姆媽媽找保姆幾乎都不是靠我們的居府中心媒合的都是自己找的那你這樣有用嗎即便他達到五分達到三分也沒有用有一些縣市是開改善單如果事實上是已經超收了為什麼還可以改善單\n\n28\n00:09:38,909 --> 00:10:02,920\n繼續讓它改善,繼續超收嗎?」那我就不太懂,各縣市到底我們的衛福部有沒有掌握管理方式不一?臺北市採扣分子、新北市凱勸導單,那中央有沒有統一的標準怎麼做?有的是要去輔導三次,都已經超收了,甚至收偷未回報這些東西都沒有,甚至環境很糟,抱歉,就是一直勸導勸導,那他勸導不改善,你能怎麼辦?繼續再勸導嗎?所以\n\n29\n00:10:09,971 --> 00:10:34,138\n請衛福部是不是統一把這所有的縣市政府做的方式能夠了解那下一頁再下一頁針對保姆大家主張這幾個就是我們的施肢背景還有建立我們的額內樣態定期更新還有我們一定要有訓練專業性是不是可以解決訪視員的困境\n\n30\n00:10:35,137 --> 00:10:52,818\n及彙整資料之後才一一去解決該修法的就修法。」下一頁新剝削這一塊希望你們民定主管機關的全責不要都是讓大家看起來媽媽叫真的師兄弟去掃地的時候最後大家都沒掃地啦\n\n31\n00:10:53,338 --> 00:11:19,663\n就大家都會在做推脫的狀態是不是可以民定事業主管機關比照兒少全法跟我們性侵害犯罪防治法這樣子去做還有強化我們的偵查能量有個專責機構去增訂性影像的資料庫的系統才有辦法比對然後呢偵查到犯罪還有民定主管機關馬立即那個時間性限制閱覽跟移除的通知的一個權限那懲罰一定要\n\n32\n00:11:20,573 --> 00:11:37,271\n對於有支付金額購買性的剝削內容的網站會員,還有有急迫性的話,請速度快一點,只選能夠增加緊急資訊的限制規定。」好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林月琴委員。接下來請陳金輝委員發言。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5009\t7033\t有請我們的部長,請薛部長。\n15612\t36543\t部長早當然今天事實上是講家暴可是我覺得更為關心的是因為我們從一百年那時候有感受到少子化之後開始有一些的所謂的公共的托嬰中心甚至比較鼓勵保母來帶孩子那後來又推准工\n37236\t48630\t所以孩子越來越多事實上是進入到家外那家外我覺得事實上是政府責無旁貸家內當然我覺得還有很多要努力的\n50993\t72091\t下一頁。」所以目前這樣看起來,我想剛剛我們的那個趙志偉委員也在提,就是我們不斷不斷的有兩起的這樣的發生,有時候就是死亡,不管是拖延中心或者是保母。就正如我講的,我們孩子已經生得很少,去年生到13萬5,那一個都不能少的狀態裡邊,\n73292\t100851\t甚至只要更好。」如果一旦被暴力對待的話怎麼去回復他搞不好身心都是沒有辦法回復的好下一頁所以我們的托嬰中心事實上和保姆數量是在成長當中因為這是政府的托嬰政策在鼓勵所以托嬰中心五年內成長了1.5倍那保姆呢也是往上揚的可是我們的施虐者呢事實上是保姆跟教師也成長了2.3倍也就是說\n101894\t129966\t托嬰中心成長1.5倍,可是肆虐者事實上成長2到3倍。」這也是我想很多父母為之憂心的地方那在這邊也要提醒就是說我們還是分不出來這個保姆講的事實上是居家的保姆還是托嬰中心的因為他們都統稱托育人員可是你現在分的叫保姆一個叫教師這教師講的是托育人員因為托嬰中心稱的是托育人員所以不太照還是幼兒園的老師\n130686\t136015\t所以是不是可以未來數據分流因為常常講說數據才能夠掌握問題如果數據不清楚的話就沒有辦法掌握問題下一頁\n141837\t170556\t那我們就來看保姆你怎麼從前面去管控一個失知的訓練裡邊126小時這樣的一個考照完全沒有額略的一個相關課程放在額少全法裡邊反而事實上沒有辦法去對焦那在職訓練的九大類裡邊也是有相同的問題而且上這些課程的人事實上有沒有醫護背景可是從你們的辦法裡邊就知道他只要是在\n172918\t187087\t也就是說他在擔任訪視員擔任三年他基本上就可以來擔任課程的老師那他的背景經驗到底是什麼所以有沒有針對於特別額略評估的課程須有醫護背景或者是他有兒少寶經驗的講師而不是\n189869\t212064\t誰都可以上,沒有經過一個評估,這樣的老師都可以上課,因為你只有一個實務經驗三年就可以,可是實務經驗是在做居家保姆的訪視工作,而且現在居家保姆的訪視員基本上沒有要求社工,沒有要求一些相關科系,所以大家大學畢業就可以進去,那我們就有擔心說,那這樣子會不會有一些問題,下一頁。\n215489\t218252\t保姆、訪視員訓練到底訪視員都上這些課程嗎?如果你已經弄出來是額內的評估的一些相關資能的話有課程的實施計畫都上嗎?就我知道\n231314\t259529\t政府部門事商上半年度辦一場,下半年度辦一場,要滿足全國的訪視員是沒辦法,地方不辦,去年開始丟來地方辦,地方結果他說他沒有財力辦,最後也是中央辦,中央辦全台灣有這麼多的訪視輔導員,有沒有確保,可是他每天進門就要去看保護的孩子,可是他沒有能力的話,你怎麼可能去確保說他評估診斷是OK的,還有我更為關鍵的,失智背景到底是誰\n261369\t269088\t還有呢?課程內容誰規劃的?」為什麼這樣提?因為在講居家安全的時候竟然有人老師是上\n269659\t297962\t命理。」我就不知道說今天流年很好就不會發生居家安全事情嗎?那就是課程的目標跟內容事實上是不太一樣的齁。甚至當時標的物也是不太一樣的齁。還有額虐樣態有沒有統一?因為始終我覺得政府已經很久了已經有做額虐的那為什麼每次到家外的時候我們在認定委員會要認定說這小孩子有沒有被虐待的時候常常沒辦法去做。這個之前我們也跟保護師有提過就是說你有這麼多年的經驗為什麼不可以把\n298883\t318564\t而略的一些不當對待樣態找出來,而來讓各縣市政府可有依據。」常常各縣市政府行文給我們的保護士這邊,就說那你們自己裁處,你們自己決定。可是如果地方政府,如果事實上沒有這樣的能力的話,那怎麼去做這樣的一個裁處,最後還是影響到孩子的權益。下一頁。\n319741\t332854\t所以整個課程應該去制定一些如果我覺得衛福部本來就有兒科醫學會做的這樣一個版本我不知道為什麼都沒有去用這也是我覺得很疑惑的地方\n333581\t361678\t那再加上防治真的蠻重要的我們看到額蒙的檢討報告蠻特別的他說部分不適應的行為跟額逆行為是反應相仿不易辨識真的是這樣嗎牙齒四顆掉了然後指甲都拔了然後還會說這個跟不適應的行為相仿表示他沒有判斷的能力啊報告還是呈現這樣的狀況那怎麼可能作為未來去做改進呢根本就是不太可能啊\n363100\t368188\t這個部分是不是應該邀請衛福部,我不知道部長這邊有沒有辦法做到。」\n370211\t398068\t這需要長期來做,那第一個剛剛委員提到的其實很重要一點,但是我們可能之前沒有辦法去做得很好的,就是收集資料的精確性,然後要去做分析,你如果不重視data的話,你根本就找不出來問題在哪裡。是,期待部長,是不是我覺得能不能針對這件事情很看重,\n398735\t423837\t一個孩子如果他有同年有負面經驗的話對他未來長大生很多疾病的可能性非常的高我必須提醒委員應該是期待衛福部不是期待部長謝謝部長就是那我覺得衛福部就是那可是現在你還是在任內那也是要你的指令下下去才有辦法做到\n424622\t453601\t那今天談了是不是就能夠接下來可以馬上跟進去做好下一頁防治問題事實上層出不窮這個我過去因為擔任過我們居家保姆的外都已經做了大概有10年常常碰到這樣的一個問題可是好像似乎都沒有人要去解決甚至今天保姆超收防治員防治兩三個小時孩子把他塞陽台然後你要強迫他開那個\n454758\t465236\t房間門讓你進到陽台可是孩子滿頭大汗在陽台風險也非常高可是到底怎麼去做甚至有時候你收託時間是晚上12點到凌晨一點房事員根本不可能在這個時間點\n466403\t492672\t去防治去看到小孩。」可是這都是在衛福部裡邊被允許的說這個時間點事實上是OK的還有一直都沒有辦法突破防治員就在底下管理員就是不讓他進去那今天我明明知道他有超收可是抱歉我就是不能進去那一直都為什麼不去突破大廈管理條例這一塊然後使得反而每一次超收他把孩子移到鄰居家去之後\n493072\t501239\t他再讓管理員開門才讓我進去那這樣子的話到底有沒有辦法解決沒有辦法解決啊所以我不知道是否可以用兒少全法70條來請各個單位配合還有這是很明顯的\n505834\t520142\t而夢的這個案子開開案是在下午時間然後就說孩子睡眠輕鬆所以呢精神不振他早就精神不振了可是你不是早上你竟然是用下午時間甚至孩子在下午睡覺的話你根本也沒辦法看到孩子的樣態所以訪視員有沒有訪視的資能怎麼會去選擇下午時間去訪視\n524984\t553209\t一定看到的不是真實的現象。」下一頁主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那各縣是做法不一臺北市是祭典祭典可是有些東西很嚴重為什麼祭典我就不太瞭解因為按照我們的居家管理登記辦法裡邊本來就述明說你如果訪視人員拒絕訪視的話本來就要馬上去做處理又扣兩分扣兩分會怎麼樣扣兩分不會怎麼樣扣兩分呢\n553789\t577277\t只會是說還沒到達媒合暫停媒合三個月保姆媽媽找保姆幾乎都不是靠我們的居府中心媒合的都是自己找的那你這樣有用嗎即便他達到五分達到三分也沒有用有一些縣市是開改善單如果事實上是已經超收了為什麼還可以改善單\n578909\t602920\t繼續讓它改善,繼續超收嗎?」那我就不太懂,各縣市到底我們的衛福部有沒有掌握管理方式不一?臺北市採扣分子、新北市凱勸導單,那中央有沒有統一的標準怎麼做?有的是要去輔導三次,都已經超收了,甚至收偷未回報這些東西都沒有,甚至環境很糟,抱歉,就是一直勸導勸導,那他勸導不改善,你能怎麼辦?繼續再勸導嗎?所以\n609971\t634138\t請衛福部是不是統一把這所有的縣市政府做的方式能夠了解那下一頁再下一頁針對保姆大家主張這幾個就是我們的施肢背景還有建立我們的額內樣態定期更新還有我們一定要有訓練專業性是不是可以解決訪視員的困境\n635137\t652818\t及彙整資料之後才一一去解決該修法的就修法。」下一頁新剝削這一塊希望你們民定主管機關的全責不要都是讓大家看起來媽媽叫真的師兄弟去掃地的時候最後大家都沒掃地啦\n653338\t679663\t就大家都會在做推脫的狀態是不是可以民定事業主管機關比照兒少全法跟我們性侵害犯罪防治法這樣子去做還有強化我們的偵查能量有個專責機構去增訂性影像的資料庫的系統才有辦法比對然後呢偵查到犯罪還有民定主管機關馬立即那個時間性限制閱覽跟移除的通知的一個權限那懲罰一定要\n680573\t697271\t對於有支付金額購買性的剝削內容的網站會員,還有有急迫性的話,請速度快一點,只選能夠增加緊急資訊的限制規定。」好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林月琴委員。接下來請陳金輝委員發言。\n","txt":"有請我們的部長,請薛部長。\n部長早當然今天事實上是講家暴可是我覺得更為關心的是因為我們從一百年那時候有感受到少子化之後開始有一些的所謂的公共的托嬰中心甚至比較鼓勵保母來帶孩子那後來又推准工\n所以孩子越來越多事實上是進入到家外那家外我覺得事實上是政府責無旁貸家內當然我覺得還有很多要努力的\n下一頁。」所以目前這樣看起來,我想剛剛我們的那個趙志偉委員也在提,就是我們不斷不斷的有兩起的這樣的發生,有時候就是死亡,不管是拖延中心或者是保母。就正如我講的,我們孩子已經生得很少,去年生到13萬5,那一個都不能少的狀態裡邊,\n甚至只要更好。」如果一旦被暴力對待的話怎麼去回復他搞不好身心都是沒有辦法回復的好下一頁所以我們的托嬰中心事實上和保姆數量是在成長當中因為這是政府的托嬰政策在鼓勵所以托嬰中心五年內成長了1.5倍那保姆呢也是往上揚的可是我們的施虐者呢事實上是保姆跟教師也成長了2.3倍也就是說\n托嬰中心成長1.5倍,可是肆虐者事實上成長2到3倍。」這也是我想很多父母為之憂心的地方那在這邊也要提醒就是說我們還是分不出來這個保姆講的事實上是居家的保姆還是托嬰中心的因為他們都統稱托育人員可是你現在分的叫保姆一個叫教師這教師講的是托育人員因為托嬰中心稱的是托育人員所以不太照還是幼兒園的老師\n所以是不是可以未來數據分流因為常常講說數據才能夠掌握問題如果數據不清楚的話就沒有辦法掌握問題下一頁\n那我們就來看保姆你怎麼從前面去管控一個失知的訓練裡邊126小時這樣的一個考照完全沒有額略的一個相關課程放在額少全法裡邊反而事實上沒有辦法去對焦那在職訓練的九大類裡邊也是有相同的問題而且上這些課程的人事實上有沒有醫護背景可是從你們的辦法裡邊就知道他只要是在\n也就是說他在擔任訪視員擔任三年他基本上就可以來擔任課程的老師那他的背景經驗到底是什麼所以有沒有針對於特別額略評估的課程須有醫護背景或者是他有兒少寶經驗的講師而不是\n誰都可以上,沒有經過一個評估,這樣的老師都可以上課,因為你只有一個實務經驗三年就可以,可是實務經驗是在做居家保姆的訪視工作,而且現在居家保姆的訪視員基本上沒有要求社工,沒有要求一些相關科系,所以大家大學畢業就可以進去,那我們就有擔心說,那這樣子會不會有一些問題,下一頁。\n保姆、訪視員訓練到底訪視員都上這些課程嗎?如果你已經弄出來是額內的評估的一些相關資能的話有課程的實施計畫都上嗎?就我知道\n政府部門事商上半年度辦一場,下半年度辦一場,要滿足全國的訪視員是沒辦法,地方不辦,去年開始丟來地方辦,地方結果他說他沒有財力辦,最後也是中央辦,中央辦全台灣有這麼多的訪視輔導員,有沒有確保,可是他每天進門就要去看保護的孩子,可是他沒有能力的話,你怎麼可能去確保說他評估診斷是OK的,還有我更為關鍵的,失智背景到底是誰\n還有呢?課程內容誰規劃的?」為什麼這樣提?因為在講居家安全的時候竟然有人老師是上\n命理。」我就不知道說今天流年很好就不會發生居家安全事情嗎?那就是課程的目標跟內容事實上是不太一樣的齁。甚至當時標的物也是不太一樣的齁。還有額虐樣態有沒有統一?因為始終我覺得政府已經很久了已經有做額虐的那為什麼每次到家外的時候我們在認定委員會要認定說這小孩子有沒有被虐待的時候常常沒辦法去做。這個之前我們也跟保護師有提過就是說你有這麼多年的經驗為什麼不可以把\n而略的一些不當對待樣態找出來,而來讓各縣市政府可有依據。」常常各縣市政府行文給我們的保護士這邊,就說那你們自己裁處,你們自己決定。可是如果地方政府,如果事實上沒有這樣的能力的話,那怎麼去做這樣的一個裁處,最後還是影響到孩子的權益。下一頁。\n所以整個課程應該去制定一些如果我覺得衛福部本來就有兒科醫學會做的這樣一個版本我不知道為什麼都沒有去用這也是我覺得很疑惑的地方\n那再加上防治真的蠻重要的我們看到額蒙的檢討報告蠻特別的他說部分不適應的行為跟額逆行為是反應相仿不易辨識真的是這樣嗎牙齒四顆掉了然後指甲都拔了然後還會說這個跟不適應的行為相仿表示他沒有判斷的能力啊報告還是呈現這樣的狀況那怎麼可能作為未來去做改進呢根本就是不太可能啊\n這個部分是不是應該邀請衛福部,我不知道部長這邊有沒有辦法做到。」\n這需要長期來做,那第一個剛剛委員提到的其實很重要一點,但是我們可能之前沒有辦法去做得很好的,就是收集資料的精確性,然後要去做分析,你如果不重視data的話,你根本就找不出來問題在哪裡。是,期待部長,是不是我覺得能不能針對這件事情很看重,\n一個孩子如果他有同年有負面經驗的話對他未來長大生很多疾病的可能性非常的高我必須提醒委員應該是期待衛福部不是期待部長謝謝部長就是那我覺得衛福部就是那可是現在你還是在任內那也是要你的指令下下去才有辦法做到\n那今天談了是不是就能夠接下來可以馬上跟進去做好下一頁防治問題事實上層出不窮這個我過去因為擔任過我們居家保姆的外都已經做了大概有10年常常碰到這樣的一個問題可是好像似乎都沒有人要去解決甚至今天保姆超收防治員防治兩三個小時孩子把他塞陽台然後你要強迫他開那個\n房間門讓你進到陽台可是孩子滿頭大汗在陽台風險也非常高可是到底怎麼去做甚至有時候你收託時間是晚上12點到凌晨一點房事員根本不可能在這個時間點\n去防治去看到小孩。」可是這都是在衛福部裡邊被允許的說這個時間點事實上是OK的還有一直都沒有辦法突破防治員就在底下管理員就是不讓他進去那今天我明明知道他有超收可是抱歉我就是不能進去那一直都為什麼不去突破大廈管理條例這一塊然後使得反而每一次超收他把孩子移到鄰居家去之後\n他再讓管理員開門才讓我進去那這樣子的話到底有沒有辦法解決沒有辦法解決啊所以我不知道是否可以用兒少全法70條來請各個單位配合還有這是很明顯的\n而夢的這個案子開開案是在下午時間然後就說孩子睡眠輕鬆所以呢精神不振他早就精神不振了可是你不是早上你竟然是用下午時間甚至孩子在下午睡覺的話你根本也沒辦法看到孩子的樣態所以訪視員有沒有訪視的資能怎麼會去選擇下午時間去訪視\n一定看到的不是真實的現象。」下一頁主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那各縣是做法不一臺北市是祭典祭典可是有些東西很嚴重為什麼祭典我就不太瞭解因為按照我們的居家管理登記辦法裡邊本來就述明說你如果訪視人員拒絕訪視的話本來就要馬上去做處理又扣兩分扣兩分會怎麼樣扣兩分不會怎麼樣扣兩分呢\n只會是說還沒到達媒合暫停媒合三個月保姆媽媽找保姆幾乎都不是靠我們的居府中心媒合的都是自己找的那你這樣有用嗎即便他達到五分達到三分也沒有用有一些縣市是開改善單如果事實上是已經超收了為什麼還可以改善單\n繼續讓它改善,繼續超收嗎?」那我就不太懂,各縣市到底我們的衛福部有沒有掌握管理方式不一?臺北市採扣分子、新北市凱勸導單,那中央有沒有統一的標準怎麼做?有的是要去輔導三次,都已經超收了,甚至收偷未回報這些東西都沒有,甚至環境很糟,抱歉,就是一直勸導勸導,那他勸導不改善,你能怎麼辦?繼續再勸導嗎?所以\n請衛福部是不是統一把這所有的縣市政府做的方式能夠了解那下一頁再下一頁針對保姆大家主張這幾個就是我們的施肢背景還有建立我們的額內樣態定期更新還有我們一定要有訓練專業性是不是可以解決訪視員的困境\n及彙整資料之後才一一去解決該修法的就修法。」下一頁新剝削這一塊希望你們民定主管機關的全責不要都是讓大家看起來媽媽叫真的師兄弟去掃地的時候最後大家都沒掃地啦\n就大家都會在做推脫的狀態是不是可以民定事業主管機關比照兒少全法跟我們性侵害犯罪防治法這樣子去做還有強化我們的偵查能量有個專責機構去增訂性影像的資料庫的系統才有辦法比對然後呢偵查到犯罪還有民定主管機關馬立即那個時間性限制閱覽跟移除的通知的一個權限那懲罰一定要\n對於有支付金額購買性的剝削內容的網站會員,還有有急迫性的話,請速度快一點,只選能夠增加緊急資訊的限制規定。」好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林月琴委員。接下來請陳金輝委員發言。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.009 --> 00:07.033\n有請我們的部長,請薛部長。\n\n00:15.612 --> 00:36.543\n部長早當然今天事實上是講家暴可是我覺得更為關心的是因為我們從一百年那時候有感受到少子化之後開始有一些的所謂的公共的托嬰中心甚至比較鼓勵保母來帶孩子那後來又推准工\n\n00:37.236 --> 00:48.630\n所以孩子越來越多事實上是進入到家外那家外我覺得事實上是政府責無旁貸家內當然我覺得還有很多要努力的\n\n00:50.993 --> 01:12.091\n下一頁。」所以目前這樣看起來,我想剛剛我們的那個趙志偉委員也在提,就是我們不斷不斷的有兩起的這樣的發生,有時候就是死亡,不管是拖延中心或者是保母。就正如我講的,我們孩子已經生得很少,去年生到13萬5,那一個都不能少的狀態裡邊,\n\n01:13.292 --> 01:40.851\n甚至只要更好。」如果一旦被暴力對待的話怎麼去回復他搞不好身心都是沒有辦法回復的好下一頁所以我們的托嬰中心事實上和保姆數量是在成長當中因為這是政府的托嬰政策在鼓勵所以托嬰中心五年內成長了1.5倍那保姆呢也是往上揚的可是我們的施虐者呢事實上是保姆跟教師也成長了2.3倍也就是說\n\n01:41.894 --> 02:09.966\n托嬰中心成長1.5倍,可是肆虐者事實上成長2到3倍。」這也是我想很多父母為之憂心的地方那在這邊也要提醒就是說我們還是分不出來這個保姆講的事實上是居家的保姆還是托嬰中心的因為他們都統稱托育人員可是你現在分的叫保姆一個叫教師這教師講的是托育人員因為托嬰中心稱的是托育人員所以不太照還是幼兒園的老師\n\n02:10.686 --> 02:16.015\n所以是不是可以未來數據分流因為常常講說數據才能夠掌握問題如果數據不清楚的話就沒有辦法掌握問題下一頁\n\n02:21.837 --> 02:50.556\n那我們就來看保姆你怎麼從前面去管控一個失知的訓練裡邊126小時這樣的一個考照完全沒有額略的一個相關課程放在額少全法裡邊反而事實上沒有辦法去對焦那在職訓練的九大類裡邊也是有相同的問題而且上這些課程的人事實上有沒有醫護背景可是從你們的辦法裡邊就知道他只要是在\n\n02:52.918 --> 03:07.087\n也就是說他在擔任訪視員擔任三年他基本上就可以來擔任課程的老師那他的背景經驗到底是什麼所以有沒有針對於特別額略評估的課程須有醫護背景或者是他有兒少寶經驗的講師而不是\n\n03:09.869 --> 03:32.064\n誰都可以上,沒有經過一個評估,這樣的老師都可以上課,因為你只有一個實務經驗三年就可以,可是實務經驗是在做居家保姆的訪視工作,而且現在居家保姆的訪視員基本上沒有要求社工,沒有要求一些相關科系,所以大家大學畢業就可以進去,那我們就有擔心說,那這樣子會不會有一些問題,下一頁。\n\n03:35.489 --> 03:38.252\n保姆、訪視員訓練到底訪視員都上這些課程嗎?如果你已經弄出來是額內的評估的一些相關資能的話有課程的實施計畫都上嗎?就我知道\n\n03:51.314 --> 04:19.529\n政府部門事商上半年度辦一場,下半年度辦一場,要滿足全國的訪視員是沒辦法,地方不辦,去年開始丟來地方辦,地方結果他說他沒有財力辦,最後也是中央辦,中央辦全台灣有這麼多的訪視輔導員,有沒有確保,可是他每天進門就要去看保護的孩子,可是他沒有能力的話,你怎麼可能去確保說他評估診斷是OK的,還有我更為關鍵的,失智背景到底是誰\n\n04:21.369 --> 04:29.088\n還有呢?課程內容誰規劃的?」為什麼這樣提?因為在講居家安全的時候竟然有人老師是上\n\n04:29.659 --> 04:57.962\n命理。」我就不知道說今天流年很好就不會發生居家安全事情嗎?那就是課程的目標跟內容事實上是不太一樣的齁。甚至當時標的物也是不太一樣的齁。還有額虐樣態有沒有統一?因為始終我覺得政府已經很久了已經有做額虐的那為什麼每次到家外的時候我們在認定委員會要認定說這小孩子有沒有被虐待的時候常常沒辦法去做。這個之前我們也跟保護師有提過就是說你有這麼多年的經驗為什麼不可以把\n\n04:58.883 --> 05:18.564\n而略的一些不當對待樣態找出來,而來讓各縣市政府可有依據。」常常各縣市政府行文給我們的保護士這邊,就說那你們自己裁處,你們自己決定。可是如果地方政府,如果事實上沒有這樣的能力的話,那怎麼去做這樣的一個裁處,最後還是影響到孩子的權益。下一頁。\n\n05:19.741 --> 05:32.854\n所以整個課程應該去制定一些如果我覺得衛福部本來就有兒科醫學會做的這樣一個版本我不知道為什麼都沒有去用這也是我覺得很疑惑的地方\n\n05:33.581 --> 06:01.678\n那再加上防治真的蠻重要的我們看到額蒙的檢討報告蠻特別的他說部分不適應的行為跟額逆行為是反應相仿不易辨識真的是這樣嗎牙齒四顆掉了然後指甲都拔了然後還會說這個跟不適應的行為相仿表示他沒有判斷的能力啊報告還是呈現這樣的狀況那怎麼可能作為未來去做改進呢根本就是不太可能啊\n\n06:03.100 --> 06:08.188\n這個部分是不是應該邀請衛福部,我不知道部長這邊有沒有辦法做到。」\n\n06:10.211 --> 06:38.068\n這需要長期來做,那第一個剛剛委員提到的其實很重要一點,但是我們可能之前沒有辦法去做得很好的,就是收集資料的精確性,然後要去做分析,你如果不重視data的話,你根本就找不出來問題在哪裡。是,期待部長,是不是我覺得能不能針對這件事情很看重,\n\n06:38.735 --> 07:03.837\n一個孩子如果他有同年有負面經驗的話對他未來長大生很多疾病的可能性非常的高我必須提醒委員應該是期待衛福部不是期待部長謝謝部長就是那我覺得衛福部就是那可是現在你還是在任內那也是要你的指令下下去才有辦法做到\n\n07:04.622 --> 07:33.601\n那今天談了是不是就能夠接下來可以馬上跟進去做好下一頁防治問題事實上層出不窮這個我過去因為擔任過我們居家保姆的外都已經做了大概有10年常常碰到這樣的一個問題可是好像似乎都沒有人要去解決甚至今天保姆超收防治員防治兩三個小時孩子把他塞陽台然後你要強迫他開那個\n\n07:34.758 --> 07:45.236\n房間門讓你進到陽台可是孩子滿頭大汗在陽台風險也非常高可是到底怎麼去做甚至有時候你收託時間是晚上12點到凌晨一點房事員根本不可能在這個時間點\n\n07:46.403 --> 08:12.672\n去防治去看到小孩。」可是這都是在衛福部裡邊被允許的說這個時間點事實上是OK的還有一直都沒有辦法突破防治員就在底下管理員就是不讓他進去那今天我明明知道他有超收可是抱歉我就是不能進去那一直都為什麼不去突破大廈管理條例這一塊然後使得反而每一次超收他把孩子移到鄰居家去之後\n\n08:13.072 --> 08:21.239\n他再讓管理員開門才讓我進去那這樣子的話到底有沒有辦法解決沒有辦法解決啊所以我不知道是否可以用兒少全法70條來請各個單位配合還有這是很明顯的\n\n08:25.834 --> 08:40.142\n而夢的這個案子開開案是在下午時間然後就說孩子睡眠輕鬆所以呢精神不振他早就精神不振了可是你不是早上你竟然是用下午時間甚至孩子在下午睡覺的話你根本也沒辦法看到孩子的樣態所以訪視員有沒有訪視的資能怎麼會去選擇下午時間去訪視\n\n08:44.984 --> 09:13.209\n一定看到的不是真實的現象。」下一頁主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那各縣是做法不一臺北市是祭典祭典可是有些東西很嚴重為什麼祭典我就不太瞭解因為按照我們的居家管理登記辦法裡邊本來就述明說你如果訪視人員拒絕訪視的話本來就要馬上去做處理又扣兩分扣兩分會怎麼樣扣兩分不會怎麼樣扣兩分呢\n\n09:13.789 --> 09:37.277\n只會是說還沒到達媒合暫停媒合三個月保姆媽媽找保姆幾乎都不是靠我們的居府中心媒合的都是自己找的那你這樣有用嗎即便他達到五分達到三分也沒有用有一些縣市是開改善單如果事實上是已經超收了為什麼還可以改善單\n\n09:38.909 --> 10:02.920\n繼續讓它改善,繼續超收嗎?」那我就不太懂,各縣市到底我們的衛福部有沒有掌握管理方式不一?臺北市採扣分子、新北市凱勸導單,那中央有沒有統一的標準怎麼做?有的是要去輔導三次,都已經超收了,甚至收偷未回報這些東西都沒有,甚至環境很糟,抱歉,就是一直勸導勸導,那他勸導不改善,你能怎麼辦?繼續再勸導嗎?所以\n\n10:09.971 --> 10:34.138\n請衛福部是不是統一把這所有的縣市政府做的方式能夠了解那下一頁再下一頁針對保姆大家主張這幾個就是我們的施肢背景還有建立我們的額內樣態定期更新還有我們一定要有訓練專業性是不是可以解決訪視員的困境\n\n10:35.137 --> 10:52.818\n及彙整資料之後才一一去解決該修法的就修法。」下一頁新剝削這一塊希望你們民定主管機關的全責不要都是讓大家看起來媽媽叫真的師兄弟去掃地的時候最後大家都沒掃地啦\n\n10:53.338 --> 11:19.663\n就大家都會在做推脫的狀態是不是可以民定事業主管機關比照兒少全法跟我們性侵害犯罪防治法這樣子去做還有強化我們的偵查能量有個專責機構去增訂性影像的資料庫的系統才有辦法比對然後呢偵查到犯罪還有民定主管機關馬立即那個時間性限制閱覽跟移除的通知的一個權限那懲罰一定要\n\n11:20.573 --> 11:37.271\n對於有支付金額購買性的剝削內容的網站會員,還有有急迫性的話,請速度快一點,只選能夠增加緊急資訊的限制規定。」好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林月琴委員。接下來請陳金輝委員發言。\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.009,"end":7.033,"text":"有請我們的部長,請薛部長。"},{"start":15.612,"end":36.543,"text":"部長早當然今天事實上是講家暴可是我覺得更為關心的是因為我們從一百年那時候有感受到少子化之後開始有一些的所謂的公共的托嬰中心甚至比較鼓勵保母來帶孩子那後來又推准工"},{"start":37.236,"end":48.63,"text":"所以孩子越來越多事實上是進入到家外那家外我覺得事實上是政府責無旁貸家內當然我覺得還有很多要努力的"},{"start":50.993,"end":72.091,"text":"下一頁。」所以目前這樣看起來,我想剛剛我們的那個趙志偉委員也在提,就是我們不斷不斷的有兩起的這樣的發生,有時候就是死亡,不管是拖延中心或者是保母。就正如我講的,我們孩子已經生得很少,去年生到13萬5,那一個都不能少的狀態裡邊,"},{"start":73.292,"end":100.851,"text":"甚至只要更好。」如果一旦被暴力對待的話怎麼去回復他搞不好身心都是沒有辦法回復的好下一頁所以我們的托嬰中心事實上和保姆數量是在成長當中因為這是政府的托嬰政策在鼓勵所以托嬰中心五年內成長了1.5倍那保姆呢也是往上揚的可是我們的施虐者呢事實上是保姆跟教師也成長了2.3倍也就是說"},{"start":101.894,"end":129.966,"text":"托嬰中心成長1.5倍,可是肆虐者事實上成長2到3倍。」這也是我想很多父母為之憂心的地方那在這邊也要提醒就是說我們還是分不出來這個保姆講的事實上是居家的保姆還是托嬰中心的因為他們都統稱托育人員可是你現在分的叫保姆一個叫教師這教師講的是托育人員因為托嬰中心稱的是托育人員所以不太照還是幼兒園的老師"},{"start":130.686,"end":136.015,"text":"所以是不是可以未來數據分流因為常常講說數據才能夠掌握問題如果數據不清楚的話就沒有辦法掌握問題下一頁"},{"start":141.837,"end":170.556,"text":"那我們就來看保姆你怎麼從前面去管控一個失知的訓練裡邊126小時這樣的一個考照完全沒有額略的一個相關課程放在額少全法裡邊反而事實上沒有辦法去對焦那在職訓練的九大類裡邊也是有相同的問題而且上這些課程的人事實上有沒有醫護背景可是從你們的辦法裡邊就知道他只要是在"},{"start":172.918,"end":187.087,"text":"也就是說他在擔任訪視員擔任三年他基本上就可以來擔任課程的老師那他的背景經驗到底是什麼所以有沒有針對於特別額略評估的課程須有醫護背景或者是他有兒少寶經驗的講師而不是"},{"start":189.869,"end":212.064,"text":"誰都可以上,沒有經過一個評估,這樣的老師都可以上課,因為你只有一個實務經驗三年就可以,可是實務經驗是在做居家保姆的訪視工作,而且現在居家保姆的訪視員基本上沒有要求社工,沒有要求一些相關科系,所以大家大學畢業就可以進去,那我們就有擔心說,那這樣子會不會有一些問題,下一頁。"},{"start":215.489,"end":218.252,"text":"保姆、訪視員訓練到底訪視員都上這些課程嗎?如果你已經弄出來是額內的評估的一些相關資能的話有課程的實施計畫都上嗎?就我知道"},{"start":231.314,"end":259.529,"text":"政府部門事商上半年度辦一場,下半年度辦一場,要滿足全國的訪視員是沒辦法,地方不辦,去年開始丟來地方辦,地方結果他說他沒有財力辦,最後也是中央辦,中央辦全台灣有這麼多的訪視輔導員,有沒有確保,可是他每天進門就要去看保護的孩子,可是他沒有能力的話,你怎麼可能去確保說他評估診斷是OK的,還有我更為關鍵的,失智背景到底是誰"},{"start":261.369,"end":269.088,"text":"還有呢?課程內容誰規劃的?」為什麼這樣提?因為在講居家安全的時候竟然有人老師是上"},{"start":269.659,"end":297.962,"text":"命理。」我就不知道說今天流年很好就不會發生居家安全事情嗎?那就是課程的目標跟內容事實上是不太一樣的齁。甚至當時標的物也是不太一樣的齁。還有額虐樣態有沒有統一?因為始終我覺得政府已經很久了已經有做額虐的那為什麼每次到家外的時候我們在認定委員會要認定說這小孩子有沒有被虐待的時候常常沒辦法去做。這個之前我們也跟保護師有提過就是說你有這麼多年的經驗為什麼不可以把"},{"start":298.883,"end":318.564,"text":"而略的一些不當對待樣態找出來,而來讓各縣市政府可有依據。」常常各縣市政府行文給我們的保護士這邊,就說那你們自己裁處,你們自己決定。可是如果地方政府,如果事實上沒有這樣的能力的話,那怎麼去做這樣的一個裁處,最後還是影響到孩子的權益。下一頁。"},{"start":319.741,"end":332.854,"text":"所以整個課程應該去制定一些如果我覺得衛福部本來就有兒科醫學會做的這樣一個版本我不知道為什麼都沒有去用這也是我覺得很疑惑的地方"},{"start":333.581,"end":361.678,"text":"那再加上防治真的蠻重要的我們看到額蒙的檢討報告蠻特別的他說部分不適應的行為跟額逆行為是反應相仿不易辨識真的是這樣嗎牙齒四顆掉了然後指甲都拔了然後還會說這個跟不適應的行為相仿表示他沒有判斷的能力啊報告還是呈現這樣的狀況那怎麼可能作為未來去做改進呢根本就是不太可能啊"},{"start":363.1,"end":368.188,"text":"這個部分是不是應該邀請衛福部,我不知道部長這邊有沒有辦法做到。」"},{"start":370.211,"end":398.068,"text":"這需要長期來做,那第一個剛剛委員提到的其實很重要一點,但是我們可能之前沒有辦法去做得很好的,就是收集資料的精確性,然後要去做分析,你如果不重視data的話,你根本就找不出來問題在哪裡。是,期待部長,是不是我覺得能不能針對這件事情很看重,"},{"start":398.735,"end":423.837,"text":"一個孩子如果他有同年有負面經驗的話對他未來長大生很多疾病的可能性非常的高我必須提醒委員應該是期待衛福部不是期待部長謝謝部長就是那我覺得衛福部就是那可是現在你還是在任內那也是要你的指令下下去才有辦法做到"},{"start":424.622,"end":453.601,"text":"那今天談了是不是就能夠接下來可以馬上跟進去做好下一頁防治問題事實上層出不窮這個我過去因為擔任過我們居家保姆的外都已經做了大概有10年常常碰到這樣的一個問題可是好像似乎都沒有人要去解決甚至今天保姆超收防治員防治兩三個小時孩子把他塞陽台然後你要強迫他開那個"},{"start":454.758,"end":465.236,"text":"房間門讓你進到陽台可是孩子滿頭大汗在陽台風險也非常高可是到底怎麼去做甚至有時候你收託時間是晚上12點到凌晨一點房事員根本不可能在這個時間點"},{"start":466.403,"end":492.672,"text":"去防治去看到小孩。」可是這都是在衛福部裡邊被允許的說這個時間點事實上是OK的還有一直都沒有辦法突破防治員就在底下管理員就是不讓他進去那今天我明明知道他有超收可是抱歉我就是不能進去那一直都為什麼不去突破大廈管理條例這一塊然後使得反而每一次超收他把孩子移到鄰居家去之後"},{"start":493.072,"end":501.239,"text":"他再讓管理員開門才讓我進去那這樣子的話到底有沒有辦法解決沒有辦法解決啊所以我不知道是否可以用兒少全法70條來請各個單位配合還有這是很明顯的"},{"start":505.834,"end":520.142,"text":"而夢的這個案子開開案是在下午時間然後就說孩子睡眠輕鬆所以呢精神不振他早就精神不振了可是你不是早上你竟然是用下午時間甚至孩子在下午睡覺的話你根本也沒辦法看到孩子的樣態所以訪視員有沒有訪視的資能怎麼會去選擇下午時間去訪視"},{"start":524.984,"end":553.209,"text":"一定看到的不是真實的現象。」下一頁主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那各縣是做法不一臺北市是祭典祭典可是有些東西很嚴重為什麼祭典我就不太瞭解因為按照我們的居家管理登記辦法裡邊本來就述明說你如果訪視人員拒絕訪視的話本來就要馬上去做處理又扣兩分扣兩分會怎麼樣扣兩分不會怎麼樣扣兩分呢"},{"start":553.789,"end":577.277,"text":"只會是說還沒到達媒合暫停媒合三個月保姆媽媽找保姆幾乎都不是靠我們的居府中心媒合的都是自己找的那你這樣有用嗎即便他達到五分達到三分也沒有用有一些縣市是開改善單如果事實上是已經超收了為什麼還可以改善單"},{"start":578.909,"end":602.92,"text":"繼續讓它改善,繼續超收嗎?」那我就不太懂,各縣市到底我們的衛福部有沒有掌握管理方式不一?臺北市採扣分子、新北市凱勸導單,那中央有沒有統一的標準怎麼做?有的是要去輔導三次,都已經超收了,甚至收偷未回報這些東西都沒有,甚至環境很糟,抱歉,就是一直勸導勸導,那他勸導不改善,你能怎麼辦?繼續再勸導嗎?所以"},{"start":609.971,"end":634.138,"text":"請衛福部是不是統一把這所有的縣市政府做的方式能夠了解那下一頁再下一頁針對保姆大家主張這幾個就是我們的施肢背景還有建立我們的額內樣態定期更新還有我們一定要有訓練專業性是不是可以解決訪視員的困境"},{"start":635.137,"end":652.818,"text":"及彙整資料之後才一一去解決該修法的就修法。」下一頁新剝削這一塊希望你們民定主管機關的全責不要都是讓大家看起來媽媽叫真的師兄弟去掃地的時候最後大家都沒掃地啦"},{"start":653.338,"end":679.663,"text":"就大家都會在做推脫的狀態是不是可以民定事業主管機關比照兒少全法跟我們性侵害犯罪防治法這樣子去做還有強化我們的偵查能量有個專責機構去增訂性影像的資料庫的系統才有辦法比對然後呢偵查到犯罪還有民定主管機關馬立即那個時間性限制閱覽跟移除的通知的一個權限那懲罰一定要"},{"start":680.573,"end":697.271,"text":"對於有支付金額購買性的剝削內容的網站會員,還有有急迫性的話,請速度快一點,只選能夠增加緊急資訊的限制規定。」好,以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林月琴委員。接下來請陳金輝委員發言。"}]}}}}