{"id":151600,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151600","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb352465adce9f0564a5a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b84432f0631761c12512c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:35:17 - 09:45:56","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":639,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:45:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:35:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時35分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：柯委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：主委好。我們特別針對今天的主題，也就是有關於含氚廢水的問題，因為大家都非常擔心是不是我們會吃到放射性的食物，對於我們的漁獲量，漁民也非常的關切嘛，從2020年這個議題出來之後，因為儲存的空間已經儲滿，所以必須要排放，你覺得這個會議重不重要？你覺得這個議題重不重要？"],["陳主任委員東陽：非常重要。"],["柯委員志恩：非常的重要，對，沒有錯，大家都非常的關切，而且我記得這件事情完之後，以前你們的組織─原能會就會定期召開會議，而且第一次還是跨部會的會議，沒有錯吧？我延續剛剛孟楷所說，非核的會議我們有3年沒有召開，你如果認為含氚廢水的會議非常重要，到目前為止，這個含氚廢水排放跨部會因應平台會議定期召開到現在已經開過17次的會議了，這麼重要的會議，主委或副主委有親自主持過嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們是主任秘書主持。"],["柯委員志恩：怎麼會是主任秘書呢？你會不會覺得……"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個是延續過去……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有啊，怎麼會延續過去，我們來給你看一下……"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟委員報告，因為核安會改制之後，我們的副主委只剩一位……"],["柯委員志恩：還是一樣啊，主委，如果這個很重要的話，你過去都還是有個副主委，現在已經變成降級的單位這沒有問題，但是由你或是由你的副主委來出席是表達你認為這件事情很重要，結果你們都只派主秘，所以我個人會覺得你們對這個會議的所謂重要性，這邊的資料已經幫你整理出來，其實我並不覺得你們有這麼重視，你覺得第18次的會議會在520之前由你親自主持嗎？因為那是一個態度、誠意的表現。"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有問題。"],["柯委員志恩：520之前，什麼時候？已經快要接近了。"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有問題。"],["柯委員志恩：沒有問題就是你喔？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["柯委員志恩：好，我們就來看一下。","我們剛剛看到了，我們非常關切有關於含氚廢水的排放，到目前為止已經有5批次了嘛，我看到你的報告已經有5批次了。但是主委，你認為目前我們周邊海域還有沒有機會檢測到輻射異常？或是我們的漁獲會不會檢測出含氚或其他的放射性物質？以目前來說。"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前的檢測都沒有。"],["柯委員志恩：都沒有？是。"],["陳主任委員東陽：但是這個牽扯到sampling，就是取點，怎麼取點。"],["柯委員志恩：對，這是最重要的。"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["柯委員志恩：好，你沒有檢測到，主委，這就是問題所在嘛，你不要忘記這一次廢水要排放、日本的廢水排放要30年，連續30年的時間！這30年的時間目前你都只能用多核種除去設備（ALPS）來檢測嘛，對不對？但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚，沒有問題吧？其他都可以，但沒有辦法檢測到氚"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒辦法過濾。"],["柯委員志恩：你必須要透過稀釋過濾，這就是問題所在，所以未來這30年當中，如果我們這個去放射性核種的效率變差了，或者是SOP有任何問題，最重要是我們沒有辦法參加IAEA的調查團，我們臺灣有最好的分析人才，我們只能得到間接的資料，所以你都沒有辦法到源頭來做一個取樣，這是事實嗎？你都只能用間接的部分來做分析，外交部安排那麼多，我也看到你們好多次都安排過去，但是你真的沒有實際做到可以去取樣的這一個功能吧？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們有到日本福島……"],["柯委員志恩：你有採樣嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：欸……"],["柯委員志恩：我知道你很難講，因為就我的理解，你們內部裡面有拿到日本福島電廠給的樣本，你們也做了分析，但是你們不敢公開，是不是有這件事？"],["陳主任委員東陽：因為是安全的。"],["柯委員志恩：因為安全的問題，其實很大的理由就是因為日本給了臺灣但沒有給中國大陸，因為沒有給中國大陸，日本怕觸怒，以致於你們有樣本但到現在為止都還沒有公開，這是不是一個事實？主委，這是不是一個事實？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有沒有給中國大陸我沒辦法知道……"],["柯委員志恩：日本沒有給中國大陸，但是你們有拿到樣本，你們也做了分析，但是你並沒有公開，這是不是一個事實？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們在意的是安全的問題。"],["柯委員志恩：所以啊，這是很安全，你既然拿到樣本，而且我們有最好的分析人才，既然拿到這個樣本，日本也給你了，為什麼不公開？你們就留著自己看！這還是有很多外交的層面在，所以我只問說這是不是一個事實？好，主委，你的態度我已經大概知道了，我也不為難你，這大概牽涉到一些外交的部分。我也強調安全是非常的重要，所以主委的態度已經說明非常多了，但是我還是強調，如果能夠請外交部來協助，雖然我們沒有進入這個組織，但是不要每次都只是在他們的地方接受他們的簡報報告，我們最希望的是你能夠拿到樣本，然後能夠做好，把數據告訴我們，這才是一個能夠安定大家的方法！","既然你有這麼大的信心說他沒有任何的問題，所以我們就要問嘛，我剛剛說分析人才是非常夠的，但是我們核安的檢測人力到底夠不夠？你看，相對於海保署、海巡署或漁業署動輒上百人，關於核安的分析人力，目前偵測中心只有12人，再加上原來的國原院6個，共18人，以你的解凍報告來說，你們還告訴我很多都是從國原院的前身核研所來的，而且屬於過渡性質的員額，以這個部分來說，你覺得未來還有人力來做檢測嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想目前是沒有問題。"],["柯委員志恩：目前沒有問題？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，跟委員報告，偵測中心是在高雄，這是一個全部都是Lab、全部都是實驗室……"],["柯委員志恩：我等一下還會問到那2個檢氚的，包括高雄，但是我只問到檢測的部分，所以我還要特別問到，剛剛大家非常關切嘛，除了這個問題之外，等一下我們要處理解凍的時候可以來討論，因為我的時間非常有限。","我只是擔心目前到底核廢料有沒有人來管理，因為目前來說，在第一年的時候，有關放射性廢棄物處理設施運轉人員的測驗，在2016年的時候有72人報考，合格41人；但是到去年只剩下29人報名，合格15人，合格率連五成都不到，我是擔心到最後核廢料都沒有專業人員要來做這樣的考核、都沒有人來做處理，然後到目前為止，這個核廢料該怎麼樣來做？這是你應該要特別注意的。","因為時間的關係，所以我的速度都要很快。我上次有特別提到核工人才，我們過去非常強調核工人才，但是這些人已經慢慢凋零了，很多的核工人才都已經退休，然後我們又不太重視核能，所以以致於我們的人才目前為止都拿去給美國人使用了。但是主委知道嗎，目前英國有把他們的核工博士班送到我們臺灣的清大，因為他們有為期10天的反應器操作訓練課程，主委，你知道這件事嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：不清楚。"],["柯委員志恩：你不清楚這件事，我就告訴你，去年送來的一批17位，英國把博士生送到我們臺灣來，今年有15位，這是一項5年期的計畫，而且會到2027年，現在英國跟清大正在洽談第二個5年計畫。我告訴你原因是什麼，英國把他們的核工人才送到我們臺灣的清大來，因為我們臺灣清大還有這些實務可以教導他們，但我們現在的核工人才呢？萬一哪一天我們的核能、核工又再一次蓬勃的時候，我們反而要把我們的人送到別的國家去了，我每次看到這件事情就覺得很感慨啊，別人都送到我們這邊來，然後我們這邊慢慢凋零完之後，到最後萬一我們有困境的話，我們搞不好就變成下一個英國，要把我們未來很多的核工人才送到國外去，你覺得會不會有這種可能？我實在很感嘆耶！"],["陳主任委員東陽：我同意委員的看法，人才培育的傳承是非常重要。"],["柯委員志恩：非常重要，但是當你沒有這個市場，當這個政府根本完全不在乎核能未來發展的時候，就變成別的國家來用我們這些設備跟人才，這是我們臺灣高等教育、核工教育很大的一個悲哀啦！主委，這真的是我要特別講的啦！"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，瞭解。"],["柯委員志恩：好，然後就沒事了？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我上一次有跟委員報告，其實我們內部有在討論……"],["柯委員志恩：時間的關係，主席，請給我一個時間就好，我要請衛福部，我只要問一下衛福部對於目前氚的檢驗，因為都已經來了，如果到最後都沒讓你們上台回答，我們也覺得很不好意思，所以我們還是要問一下。對不起，因為過去你們告訴我說沒有辦法檢測，因為食藥署對於這些食品只有退關、銷毀跟退運這三種處理方式嘛，沒錯吧？"],["林副署長金富：是。"],["柯委員志恩：以前你們告訴我們說沒有辦法檢測到氚，因為你們說氚沒有限量標準，所以沒有辦法檢測，你們目前有一個實施計畫專案，對不對？我想請問食藥署，這是不是代表核廢水的氚已經可以納入我們食品邊境管制的行列來做檢測？有沒有辦法？"],["林副署長金富：跟委員報告，目前確實有檢測方法，但是它檢測的時間很長，所以我們目前的作法是在輸入的當下去取樣，驗完了以後再看有沒有檢出去做監測。"],["柯委員志恩：你不是說時間很長嗎？"],["林副署長金富：對。"],["柯委員志恩：這些食品怎麼辦？"],["林副署長金富：但是不列入在邊境核判合格與否的……"],["柯委員志恩：但是這會是一個破口喔！"],["林副署長金富：我們持續監測，目前都未檢出……"],["柯委員志恩：這是一個破口喔！"],["林副署長金富：目前都未檢出。"],["柯委員志恩：都會檢出？"],["林副署長金富：是，都沒有檢出氚。"],["柯委員志恩：就沒有檢出？那是來自於你的儀器不夠，還是怎麼樣？因為你們現在已經有2個，你剛剛說從1家要變成3家，對不對？"],["林副署長金富：我們目前就是……"],["柯委員志恩：高雄市衛生局還有我們的輻射偵測中心，你們要設置氚的實驗室嘛？"],["林副署長金富：對。"],["柯委員志恩：什麼時候可以建置好？"],["林副署長金富：高雄市目前建置中，我們目前都有在檢測……"],["柯委員志恩：什麼時候建置好？我不要那個process。"],["林副署長金富：預估在今年年底以前可以完成，現在是委由……","6月，是他們在協助高雄市來建立的。"],["柯委員志恩：6月是不是？好。520之後我就好好來監督這個氚的實驗室，因為目前廢水含氚，我們還是會非常重視這樣的一個問題，好不好？謝謝。"],["林副署長金富：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們有請下一位萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","spea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140.663, \"end\": 159.849, \"text\": \"目前的檢測都沒有了但是這個牽扯到那個sampling就是你取點怎麼取點對這是最重要的好你沒有檢測到來諸位這是這個重點所在嘛因為你不要忘記我們這次的廢水要排放日本的廢水排放要30年連續30年的時間\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 140.663, \"end\": 140.903, \"score\": 0.776}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 140.903, \"end\": 141.083, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 141.083, \"end\": 142.264, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"測\"}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 142.264, \"end\": 142.544, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 142.544, \"end\": 142.764, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 142.764, \"end\": 142.984, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 142.984, \"end\": 144.784, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 144.784, \"end\": 144.944, \"score\": 0.819}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 144.944, \"end\": 145.645, \"score\": 0.673}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"牽\"}, {\"word\": \"扯\", \"start\": 145.645, \"end\": 145.845, \"score\": 0.832}, 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\"start\": 158.149, \"end\": 158.269, \"score\": 0.769}, {\"word\": \"放\", \"start\": 158.269, \"end\": 158.409, \"score\": 0.64}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 158.409, \"end\": 159.609, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 159.609, \"end\": 159.629, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"連\"}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 159.629, \"end\": 159.829, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 159.829, \"end\": 159.849, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}]}, {\"start\": 162.91, \"end\": 168.596, \"text\": \"那30年時間目前你都只能用多核種去核的這個設備嘛LPS來檢測嘛對不對但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚沒有問題吧其他都可以沒有辦法檢測到氚那你怎麼知你必須要透過稀釋過濾對這就是問題所在\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 162.91, \"end\": 163.411, \"score\": 0.716}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 163.411, \"end\": 163.891, \"score\": 0.649}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 163.891, 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00:00:05,699\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的主委?邀請主委,謝謝\n\n2\n00:00:11,992 --> 00:00:32,499\n主委好,我們特別針對今天的主題有關於含氚廢水的問題因為大家都非常擔心是不是我們會吃到有關於這個放射性的食物然後我們的漁獲量、漁民也非常的關切嘛所以你認為從2020年這個議題出來之後因為它這個儲存的空間已經儲滿,所以它必須要排放你覺得這個會議重不重要?你覺得這個議題重不重要?\n\n3\n00:00:35,305 --> 00:00:36,987\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算\n\n4\n00:00:50,265 --> 00:00:50,685\n主委、副主委有親自主持過嗎?\n\n5\n00:01:07,031 --> 00:01:33,729\n我們是主任秘書主持怎麼會是主任秘書呢你會不會覺得這個是延續過去沒有啊怎麼會延續過去我們來給你看一下我跟委員報告因為我們核安會改制之後我們副主委還是一樣只有剩一位他是一樣啊主委如果這很重要的話你過去都還是有個副主委你現在已經變成將級的單位沒有問題但是呢有你或是有你的副署長來出席是不是表達你對這件事情重要就你們都只派主秘\n\n6\n00:01:34,449 --> 00:01:35,049\n五二零之前什麼時候已經快要接近了?\n\n7\n00:01:52,335 --> 00:02:14,121\n沒有問題沒有問題就是會你我們就來看一下然後我們剛剛看到了我們非常關切有關於這個到底是你現在目前為止已經有5批次了我看到你的報告已經有5批次了但是呢主委你認為目前周邊是否還有沒有機會是檢測到輻射異常或是我們的漁獲會不會檢測出含氚或其他的放射性物質你目前\n\n8\n00:02:20,663 --> 00:02:39,849\n目前的檢測都沒有了但是這個牽扯到那個sampling就是你取點怎麼取點對這是最重要的好你沒有檢測到來諸位這是這個重點所在嘛因為你不要忘記我們這次的廢水要排放日本的廢水排放要30年連續30年的時間\n\n9\n00:02:42,910 --> 00:02:48,596\n那30年時間目前你都只能用多核種去核的這個設備嘛LPS來檢測嘛對不對但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚沒有問題吧其他都可以沒有辦法檢測到氚那你怎麼知你必須要透過稀釋過濾對這就是問題所在\n\n10\n00:03:00,788 --> 00:03:23,898\n所以未來這30年當中如果我們這個去放射性核種的效率變差了或者是SOP有任何的問題了最重要是我們沒有辦法參加IAEA的這個調查團我們台灣有最好的分析的人才我們只能得到間接的一個資料所以說呢你都沒有辦法到源頭來做一個取樣這是事實嗎\n\n11\n00:03:25,322 --> 00:03:25,683\n我們有到日本福島你有採樣嗎?\n\n12\n00:03:43,487 --> 00:04:10,180\n對我知道你很難講因為就我的理解就我的理解你的內部理念有拿到日本福島電廠給你們的樣本但是呢你們也做了分析但是你們不敢公開是不是有這件事因為是安全的因為安全的問題理由其實很大的理由就是因為日本給了台灣沒有給中國大陸所以呢因為沒有給中國大陸日本怕觸怒所以以至於你們有樣本你到現在為止都還沒有公開這是不是一個事實\n\n13\n00:04:12,352 --> 00:04:35,574\n主委這是不是一個事實?我有沒有給中國大陸我沒辦法告訴你日本沒有辦法告訴你但是你沒有拿到樣本你們也做了分析但是你並沒有公開這是不是一個事實?我們在意的是安全的問題所以啊這是很安全那你既然拿到樣本我們有最好的分析人才既然拿到這個樣本日本也給你的為什麼不公開?你們就留著自己看這還是有很多外交的側面在所以我只問說這是不是一個事實?\n\n14\n00:04:38,581 --> 00:04:55,076\n好主委您的態度我已經大概知道我也不為難你但是呢這大概牽涉到一些的外交的部分但是我也強調這個安全是非常的重要的所以呢主委你的態度已經說明了非常的多了但是呢我還是強調如果能夠請外交部來協助雖然我沒有進入這個組織但是不要每一次都只是在他們地方接受他們的這個所謂的簡報報告然後呢我們最要的就是\n\n15\n00:05:04,244 --> 00:05:18,361\n希望你能夠拿到樣本然後能夠做好然後把這個數據告訴我們這才是一個能夠安定大家的方法只要你這麼有大的信心說他沒有任何的問題所以呢我們就要問嘛我剛剛說分析人才是非常的夠的啊但是我們核安的檢測人體到底夠不夠\n\n16\n00:05:20,183 --> 00:05:43,051\n因為你看相對於海保署相對於海巡署相對於漁業署動輒上百人你核安的分析人力嘛你看目前的偵測專機就有12個再加上原來的國研院6個你18個你的解凍來說你們還告訴我這很多都是從國研院前身核研所來的而且屬於過度性質的員額那這個部分來說你覺得未來還有人力來做檢測嗎\n\n17\n00:05:46,141 --> 00:06:13,839\n目前是沒有問題嗎目前是沒有問題目前沒有問題我跟委員報告偵測中心他是在高雄他是一個全部都是lab全部都是實驗室我等一下還會問到那兩個檢測包括高雄但是我只問到這個檢測的部分所以我還要特別問到剛剛大家非常的關切除了這個問題之外就等一下我們在解凍的時候可以來做討論因為我時間非常的有限我只知道擔心目前到底肥喝料有沒有人來管理因為你目前來說\n\n18\n00:06:15,180 --> 00:06:22,446\n在第一年的時候這個有關放射性的廢棄物的處理的運轉人員的檢測在2016年的時候你有72人報考合格是41人到去年為止只剩下29個人合格15連5成都不到我是擔心到最後核廢掉都沒有專業人員要來做這樣的考核都沒有人來做這個處理然後你現在目前為止這個核廢掉該怎麼樣來做這是你應該要特別注意的\n\n19\n00:06:43,501 --> 00:07:03,831\n時間關係所以我適度地要很快我上次有特別提到的核工人才核工人才裡面我們過去因為非常強調但這些人已經慢慢凋零了很多的核工人才都已經退休然後我們又不太重視核能所以以至於我們的人才目前為止都拿去給美國人使用了但是主委你知道嗎\n\n20\n00:07:04,491 --> 00:07:13,177\n目前有英國把他們的合共的博士班送到我們台灣的清大因為他們有為期10天的反應器操作訓練課程主委你知道這件事嗎?\n\n21\n00:07:14,309 --> 00:07:18,070\n昨年送來的一批17位英國把博士生送到我們台灣來今年有15位一向五年而且他們到2027年現在英國跟清大恰談第二個五年計畫所以呢我告訴你原因是什麼你看英國把他們的核工潤商送到我們台灣的清大來因為我們台灣清大還有這些食物可以教導他們\n\n22\n00:07:38,795 --> 00:08:00,755\n我們現在的核工人才萬一哪一天我們的核能、核工又再一次的蓬勃的時候我們反而要把我們的人送到別人國家去我每次看到這件事情我就覺得很感慨啊別人送到我們這邊來然後我們這邊慢慢凋零完之後然後呢到最後萬一我們有些困境的話我們搞不好就變成下一個英國要把我們未來的很多的核工的人送到國外去你覺得會不會有這種可能\n\n23\n00:08:01,936 --> 00:08:24,741\n我是很感嘆的我同意委員的看法人才培育的傳承是非常重要非常重要但是當你沒有這個市場當這個政府根本完全不在乎這個核能未來的發展的時候你就會變成別的國家來用我們這些的設備跟人才來去做的這是我們台灣高等教育、核工教育很大的一個悲哀啦主委這真的我要特別講啦好了解好然後就沒事啦\n\n24\n00:08:28,852 --> 00:08:48,360\n我上一次有跟委員報告其實我們內部其實有在討論最後時間關係主席請給我一個個時間就好我要請衛福部我只要問一下我們目前的川的檢驗衛福部的部分因為都已經來了到最後你們來我們都沒讓你問到我們也覺得很不好意思我們還是要問一下\n\n25\n00:08:49,961 --> 00:09:04,038\n對不起因為你們目前為止過去你告訴我說沒有辦法檢測因為你知道食藥署對於這些食品包括退官、銷毀跟退運這三種來處理這些方式嘛沒錯吧你們現在目前為止以前你們告訴我們說沒有辦法檢測到氚那目前來說因為你們說氚沒有限量標準嘛所以沒有辦法檢測\n\n26\n00:09:09,364 --> 00:09:20,059\n那你目前有一個這個實施計畫專案對不對那我想請問石耀署是不是已經代表核廢水的川已經可以納入我們食品這個邊境的管制的行列來做一個檢測有沒有辦法\n\n27\n00:09:22,379 --> 00:09:50,667\n跟委員報告目前確實有檢測方法但是他檢測的時間很長所以我們目前的做法是在輸入的當下去取樣然後然後驗完了以後再做看有沒有檢出去做監測那你不是說時間很長嗎對那這些食品怎麼辦不列入在邊境核判合格與否但是這會就是個破口喔這會是個破口喔\n\n28\n00:09:51,207 --> 00:10:12,099\n我們持續監測目前都未檢出目前都未檢出都沒有檢出穿那是來自於你的儀器不夠呢還是怎麼樣因為你們現在已經有兩個你剛剛說從一家變成三家嘛對不對我們目前是就是高雄市衛生局還有我們的輻射偵測中心嘛你們要設置這個穿的實驗室嘛對那什麼時候可以監制\n\n29\n00:10:16,349 --> 00:10:36,874\n高雄市目前建制中然後我們目前都有在檢測未估在今年年底前可以完成現在是6月是他們在協助高雄市來建立6月是不是好下一次520之後我就要好好來監督這個川的實驗室因為目前廢水含這個川我們還是會非常地重視這樣的一個問題好不好好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2924\t5699\t謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的主委?邀請主委,謝謝\n11992\t32499\t主委好,我們特別針對今天的主題有關於含氚廢水的問題因為大家都非常擔心是不是我們會吃到有關於這個放射性的食物然後我們的漁獲量、漁民也非常的關切嘛所以你認為從2020年這個議題出來之後因為它這個儲存的空間已經儲滿,所以它必須要排放你覺得這個會議重不重要?你覺得這個議題重不重要?\n35305\t36987\t二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算\n50265\t50685\t主委、副主委有親自主持過嗎?\n67031\t93729\t我們是主任秘書主持怎麼會是主任秘書呢你會不會覺得這個是延續過去沒有啊怎麼會延續過去我們來給你看一下我跟委員報告因為我們核安會改制之後我們副主委還是一樣只有剩一位他是一樣啊主委如果這很重要的話你過去都還是有個副主委你現在已經變成將級的單位沒有問題但是呢有你或是有你的副署長來出席是不是表達你對這件事情重要就你們都只派主秘\n94449\t95049\t五二零之前什麼時候已經快要接近了?\n112335\t134121\t沒有問題沒有問題就是會你我們就來看一下然後我們剛剛看到了我們非常關切有關於這個到底是你現在目前為止已經有5批次了我看到你的報告已經有5批次了但是呢主委你認為目前周邊是否還有沒有機會是檢測到輻射異常或是我們的漁獲會不會檢測出含氚或其他的放射性物質你目前\n140663\t159849\t目前的檢測都沒有了但是這個牽扯到那個sampling就是你取點怎麼取點對這是最重要的好你沒有檢測到來諸位這是這個重點所在嘛因為你不要忘記我們這次的廢水要排放日本的廢水排放要30年連續30年的時間\n162910\t168596\t那30年時間目前你都只能用多核種去核的這個設備嘛LPS來檢測嘛對不對但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚沒有問題吧其他都可以沒有辦法檢測到氚那你怎麼知你必須要透過稀釋過濾對這就是問題所在\n180788\t203898\t所以未來這30年當中如果我們這個去放射性核種的效率變差了或者是SOP有任何的問題了最重要是我們沒有辦法參加IAEA的這個調查團我們台灣有最好的分析的人才我們只能得到間接的一個資料所以說呢你都沒有辦法到源頭來做一個取樣這是事實嗎\n205322\t205683\t我們有到日本福島你有採樣嗎?\n223487\t250180\t對我知道你很難講因為就我的理解就我的理解你的內部理念有拿到日本福島電廠給你們的樣本但是呢你們也做了分析但是你們不敢公開是不是有這件事因為是安全的因為安全的問題理由其實很大的理由就是因為日本給了台灣沒有給中國大陸所以呢因為沒有給中國大陸日本怕觸怒所以以至於你們有樣本你到現在為止都還沒有公開這是不是一個事實\n252352\t275574\t主委這是不是一個事實?我有沒有給中國大陸我沒辦法告訴你日本沒有辦法告訴你但是你沒有拿到樣本你們也做了分析但是你並沒有公開這是不是一個事實?我們在意的是安全的問題所以啊這是很安全那你既然拿到樣本我們有最好的分析人才既然拿到這個樣本日本也給你的為什麼不公開?你們就留著自己看這還是有很多外交的側面在所以我只問說這是不是一個事實?\n278581\t295076\t好 主委您的態度我已經大概知道我也不為難你但是呢這大概牽涉到一些的外交的部分但是我也強調這個安全是非常的重要的所以呢主委你的態度已經說明了非常的多了但是呢我還是強調如果能夠請外交部來協助雖然我沒有進入這個組織但是不要每一次都只是在他們地方接受他們的這個所謂的簡報報告然後呢我們最要的就是\n304244\t318361\t希望你能夠拿到樣本然後能夠做好然後把這個數據告訴我們這才是一個能夠安定大家的方法只要你這麼有大的信心說他沒有任何的問題所以呢我們就要問嘛我剛剛說分析人才是非常的夠的啊但是我們核安的檢測人體到底夠不夠\n320183\t343051\t因為你看相對於海保署相對於海巡署相對於漁業署動輒上百人你核安的分析人力嘛你看目前的偵測專機就有12個再加上原來的國研院6個你18個你的解凍來說你們還告訴我這很多都是從國研院前身核研所來的而且屬於過度性質的員額那這個部分來說你覺得未來還有人力來做檢測嗎\n346141\t373839\t目前是沒有問題嗎目前是沒有問題目前沒有問題我跟委員報告偵測中心他是在高雄他是一個全部都是lab全部都是實驗室我等一下還會問到那兩個檢測包括高雄但是我只問到這個檢測的部分所以我還要特別問到剛剛大家非常的關切除了這個問題之外就等一下我們在解凍的時候可以來做討論因為我時間非常的有限我只知道擔心目前到底肥喝料有沒有人來管理因為你目前來說\n375180\t382446\t在第一年的時候這個有關放射性的廢棄物的處理的運轉人員的檢測在2016年的時候你有72人報考合格是41人到去年為止只剩下29個人合格15連5成都不到我是擔心到最後核廢掉都沒有專業人員要來做這樣的考核都沒有人來做這個處理然後你現在目前為止這個核廢掉該怎麼樣來做這是你應該要特別注意的\n403501\t423831\t時間關係所以我適度地要很快我上次有特別提到的核工人才核工人才裡面我們過去因為非常強調但這些人已經慢慢凋零了很多的核工人才都已經退休然後我們又不太重視核能所以以至於我們的人才目前為止都拿去給美國人使用了但是主委你知道嗎\n424491\t433177\t目前有英國把他們的合共的博士班送到我們台灣的清大因為他們有為期10天的反應器操作訓練課程主委你知道這件事嗎?\n434309\t438070\t昨年送來的一批17位英國把博士生送到我們台灣來今年有15位一向五年而且他們到2027年現在英國跟清大恰談第二個五年計畫所以呢我告訴你原因是什麼你看英國把他們的核工潤商送到我們台灣的清大來因為我們台灣清大還有這些食物可以教導他們\n458795\t480755\t我們現在的核工人才萬一哪一天我們的核能、核工又再一次的蓬勃的時候我們反而要把我們的人送到別人國家去我每次看到這件事情我就覺得很感慨啊別人送到我們這邊來然後我們這邊慢慢凋零完之後然後呢到最後萬一我們有些困境的話我們搞不好就變成下一個英國要把我們未來的很多的核工的人送到國外去你覺得會不會有這種可能\n481936\t504741\t我是很感嘆的我同意委員的看法人才培育的傳承是非常重要非常重要但是當你沒有這個市場當這個政府根本完全不在乎這個核能未來的發展的時候你就會變成別的國家來用我們這些的設備跟人才來去做的這是我們台灣高等教育、核工教育很大的一個悲哀啦主委 這真的我要特別講啦好 了解好 然後就沒事啦\n508852\t528360\t我上一次有跟委員報告其實我們內部其實有在討論最後時間關係主席請給我一個個時間就好我要請衛福部我只要問一下我們目前的川的檢驗衛福部的部分因為都已經來了到最後你們來我們都沒讓你問到我們也覺得很不好意思我們還是要問一下\n529961\t544038\t對不起因為你們目前為止過去你告訴我說沒有辦法檢測因為你知道食藥署對於這些食品包括退官、銷毀跟退運這三種來處理這些方式嘛沒錯吧你們現在目前為止以前你們告訴我們說沒有辦法檢測到氚那目前來說因為你們說氚沒有限量標準嘛所以沒有辦法檢測\n549364\t560059\t那你目前有一個這個實施計畫專案 對不對那我想請問石耀署是不是已經代表核廢水的川已經可以納入我們食品這個邊境的管制的行列來做一個檢測有沒有辦法\n562379\t590667\t跟委員報告目前確實有檢測方法但是他檢測的時間很長所以我們目前的做法是在輸入的當下去取樣然後然後驗完了以後再做看有沒有檢出去做監測那你不是說時間很長嗎對那這些食品怎麼辦不列入在邊境核判合格與否但是這會就是個破口喔這會是個破口喔\n591207\t612099\t我們持續監測目前都未檢出 目前都未檢出 都沒有檢出穿那是來自於你的儀器不夠呢 還是怎麼樣因為你們現在已經有兩個 你剛剛說從一家變成三家嘛 對不對我們目前是 就是 高雄市衛生局還有我們的輻射偵測中心嘛你們要設置這個穿的實驗室嘛 對 那什麼時候可以監制\n616349\t636874\t高雄市目前建制中然後我們目前都有在檢測未估在今年年底前可以完成現在是6月是他們在協助高雄市來建立6月是不是好 下一次520之後我就要好好來監督這個川的實驗室因為目前廢水含這個川我們還是會非常地重視這樣的一個問題好不好好 謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的主委?邀請主委,謝謝\n主委好,我們特別針對今天的主題有關於含氚廢水的問題因為大家都非常擔心是不是我們會吃到有關於這個放射性的食物然後我們的漁獲量、漁民也非常的關切嘛所以你認為從2020年這個議題出來之後因為它這個儲存的空間已經儲滿,所以它必須要排放你覺得這個會議重不重要?你覺得這個議題重不重要?\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算\n主委、副主委有親自主持過嗎?\n我們是主任秘書主持怎麼會是主任秘書呢你會不會覺得這個是延續過去沒有啊怎麼會延續過去我們來給你看一下我跟委員報告因為我們核安會改制之後我們副主委還是一樣只有剩一位他是一樣啊主委如果這很重要的話你過去都還是有個副主委你現在已經變成將級的單位沒有問題但是呢有你或是有你的副署長來出席是不是表達你對這件事情重要就你們都只派主秘\n五二零之前什麼時候已經快要接近了?\n沒有問題沒有問題就是會你我們就來看一下然後我們剛剛看到了我們非常關切有關於這個到底是你現在目前為止已經有5批次了我看到你的報告已經有5批次了但是呢主委你認為目前周邊是否還有沒有機會是檢測到輻射異常或是我們的漁獲會不會檢測出含氚或其他的放射性物質你目前\n目前的檢測都沒有了但是這個牽扯到那個sampling就是你取點怎麼取點對這是最重要的好你沒有檢測到來諸位這是這個重點所在嘛因為你不要忘記我們這次的廢水要排放日本的廢水排放要30年連續30年的時間\n那30年時間目前你都只能用多核種去核的這個設備嘛LPS來檢測嘛對不對但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚沒有問題吧其他都可以沒有辦法檢測到氚那你怎麼知你必須要透過稀釋過濾對這就是問題所在\n所以未來這30年當中如果我們這個去放射性核種的效率變差了或者是SOP有任何的問題了最重要是我們沒有辦法參加IAEA的這個調查團我們台灣有最好的分析的人才我們只能得到間接的一個資料所以說呢你都沒有辦法到源頭來做一個取樣這是事實嗎\n我們有到日本福島你有採樣嗎?\n對我知道你很難講因為就我的理解就我的理解你的內部理念有拿到日本福島電廠給你們的樣本但是呢你們也做了分析但是你們不敢公開是不是有這件事因為是安全的因為安全的問題理由其實很大的理由就是因為日本給了台灣沒有給中國大陸所以呢因為沒有給中國大陸日本怕觸怒所以以至於你們有樣本你到現在為止都還沒有公開這是不是一個事實\n主委這是不是一個事實?我有沒有給中國大陸我沒辦法告訴你日本沒有辦法告訴你但是你沒有拿到樣本你們也做了分析但是你並沒有公開這是不是一個事實?我們在意的是安全的問題所以啊這是很安全那你既然拿到樣本我們有最好的分析人才既然拿到這個樣本日本也給你的為什麼不公開?你們就留著自己看這還是有很多外交的側面在所以我只問說這是不是一個事實?\n好 主委您的態度我已經大概知道我也不為難你但是呢這大概牽涉到一些的外交的部分但是我也強調這個安全是非常的重要的所以呢主委你的態度已經說明了非常的多了但是呢我還是強調如果能夠請外交部來協助雖然我沒有進入這個組織但是不要每一次都只是在他們地方接受他們的這個所謂的簡報報告然後呢我們最要的就是\n希望你能夠拿到樣本然後能夠做好然後把這個數據告訴我們這才是一個能夠安定大家的方法只要你這麼有大的信心說他沒有任何的問題所以呢我們就要問嘛我剛剛說分析人才是非常的夠的啊但是我們核安的檢測人體到底夠不夠\n因為你看相對於海保署相對於海巡署相對於漁業署動輒上百人你核安的分析人力嘛你看目前的偵測專機就有12個再加上原來的國研院6個你18個你的解凍來說你們還告訴我這很多都是從國研院前身核研所來的而且屬於過度性質的員額那這個部分來說你覺得未來還有人力來做檢測嗎\n目前是沒有問題嗎目前是沒有問題目前沒有問題我跟委員報告偵測中心他是在高雄他是一個全部都是lab全部都是實驗室我等一下還會問到那兩個檢測包括高雄但是我只問到這個檢測的部分所以我還要特別問到剛剛大家非常的關切除了這個問題之外就等一下我們在解凍的時候可以來做討論因為我時間非常的有限我只知道擔心目前到底肥喝料有沒有人來管理因為你目前來說\n在第一年的時候這個有關放射性的廢棄物的處理的運轉人員的檢測在2016年的時候你有72人報考合格是41人到去年為止只剩下29個人合格15連5成都不到我是擔心到最後核廢掉都沒有專業人員要來做這樣的考核都沒有人來做這個處理然後你現在目前為止這個核廢掉該怎麼樣來做這是你應該要特別注意的\n時間關係所以我適度地要很快我上次有特別提到的核工人才核工人才裡面我們過去因為非常強調但這些人已經慢慢凋零了很多的核工人才都已經退休然後我們又不太重視核能所以以至於我們的人才目前為止都拿去給美國人使用了但是主委你知道嗎\n目前有英國把他們的合共的博士班送到我們台灣的清大因為他們有為期10天的反應器操作訓練課程主委你知道這件事嗎?\n昨年送來的一批17位英國把博士生送到我們台灣來今年有15位一向五年而且他們到2027年現在英國跟清大恰談第二個五年計畫所以呢我告訴你原因是什麼你看英國把他們的核工潤商送到我們台灣的清大來因為我們台灣清大還有這些食物可以教導他們\n我們現在的核工人才萬一哪一天我們的核能、核工又再一次的蓬勃的時候我們反而要把我們的人送到別人國家去我每次看到這件事情我就覺得很感慨啊別人送到我們這邊來然後我們這邊慢慢凋零完之後然後呢到最後萬一我們有些困境的話我們搞不好就變成下一個英國要把我們未來的很多的核工的人送到國外去你覺得會不會有這種可能\n我是很感嘆的我同意委員的看法人才培育的傳承是非常重要非常重要但是當你沒有這個市場當這個政府根本完全不在乎這個核能未來的發展的時候你就會變成別的國家來用我們這些的設備跟人才來去做的這是我們台灣高等教育、核工教育很大的一個悲哀啦主委 這真的我要特別講啦好 了解好 然後就沒事啦\n我上一次有跟委員報告其實我們內部其實有在討論最後時間關係主席請給我一個個時間就好我要請衛福部我只要問一下我們目前的川的檢驗衛福部的部分因為都已經來了到最後你們來我們都沒讓你問到我們也覺得很不好意思我們還是要問一下\n對不起因為你們目前為止過去你告訴我說沒有辦法檢測因為你知道食藥署對於這些食品包括退官、銷毀跟退運這三種來處理這些方式嘛沒錯吧你們現在目前為止以前你們告訴我們說沒有辦法檢測到氚那目前來說因為你們說氚沒有限量標準嘛所以沒有辦法檢測\n那你目前有一個這個實施計畫專案 對不對那我想請問石耀署是不是已經代表核廢水的川已經可以納入我們食品這個邊境的管制的行列來做一個檢測有沒有辦法\n跟委員報告目前確實有檢測方法但是他檢測的時間很長所以我們目前的做法是在輸入的當下去取樣然後然後驗完了以後再做看有沒有檢出去做監測那你不是說時間很長嗎對那這些食品怎麼辦不列入在邊境核判合格與否但是這會就是個破口喔這會是個破口喔\n我們持續監測目前都未檢出 目前都未檢出 都沒有檢出穿那是來自於你的儀器不夠呢 還是怎麼樣因為你們現在已經有兩個 你剛剛說從一家變成三家嘛 對不對我們目前是 就是 高雄市衛生局還有我們的輻射偵測中心嘛你們要設置這個穿的實驗室嘛 對 那什麼時候可以監制\n高雄市目前建制中然後我們目前都有在檢測未估在今年年底前可以完成現在是6月是他們在協助高雄市來建立6月是不是好 下一次520之後我就要好好來監督這個川的實驗室因為目前廢水含這個川我們還是會非常地重視這樣的一個問題好不好好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.924 --> 00:05.699\n謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的主委?邀請主委,謝謝\n\n00:11.992 --> 00:32.499\n主委好,我們特別針對今天的主題有關於含氚廢水的問題因為大家都非常擔心是不是我們會吃到有關於這個放射性的食物然後我們的漁獲量、漁民也非常的關切嘛所以你認為從2020年這個議題出來之後因為它這個儲存的空間已經儲滿,所以它必須要排放你覺得這個會議重不重要?你覺得這個議題重不重要?\n\n00:35.305 --> 00:36.987\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算\n\n00:50.265 --> 00:50.685\n主委、副主委有親自主持過嗎?\n\n01:07.031 --> 01:33.729\n我們是主任秘書主持怎麼會是主任秘書呢你會不會覺得這個是延續過去沒有啊怎麼會延續過去我們來給你看一下我跟委員報告因為我們核安會改制之後我們副主委還是一樣只有剩一位他是一樣啊主委如果這很重要的話你過去都還是有個副主委你現在已經變成將級的單位沒有問題但是呢有你或是有你的副署長來出席是不是表達你對這件事情重要就你們都只派主秘\n\n01:34.449 --> 01:35.049\n五二零之前什麼時候已經快要接近了?\n\n01:52.335 --> 02:14.121\n沒有問題沒有問題就是會你我們就來看一下然後我們剛剛看到了我們非常關切有關於這個到底是你現在目前為止已經有5批次了我看到你的報告已經有5批次了但是呢主委你認為目前周邊是否還有沒有機會是檢測到輻射異常或是我們的漁獲會不會檢測出含氚或其他的放射性物質你目前\n\n02:20.663 --> 02:39.849\n目前的檢測都沒有了但是這個牽扯到那個sampling就是你取點怎麼取點對這是最重要的好你沒有檢測到來諸位這是這個重點所在嘛因為你不要忘記我們這次的廢水要排放日本的廢水排放要30年連續30年的時間\n\n02:42.910 --> 02:48.596\n那30年時間目前你都只能用多核種去核的這個設備嘛LPS來檢測嘛對不對但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚沒有問題吧其他都可以沒有辦法檢測到氚那你怎麼知你必須要透過稀釋過濾對這就是問題所在\n\n03:00.788 --> 03:23.898\n所以未來這30年當中如果我們這個去放射性核種的效率變差了或者是SOP有任何的問題了最重要是我們沒有辦法參加IAEA的這個調查團我們台灣有最好的分析的人才我們只能得到間接的一個資料所以說呢你都沒有辦法到源頭來做一個取樣這是事實嗎\n\n03:25.322 --> 03:25.683\n我們有到日本福島你有採樣嗎?\n\n03:43.487 --> 04:10.180\n對我知道你很難講因為就我的理解就我的理解你的內部理念有拿到日本福島電廠給你們的樣本但是呢你們也做了分析但是你們不敢公開是不是有這件事因為是安全的因為安全的問題理由其實很大的理由就是因為日本給了台灣沒有給中國大陸所以呢因為沒有給中國大陸日本怕觸怒所以以至於你們有樣本你到現在為止都還沒有公開這是不是一個事實\n\n04:12.352 --> 04:35.574\n主委這是不是一個事實?我有沒有給中國大陸我沒辦法告訴你日本沒有辦法告訴你但是你沒有拿到樣本你們也做了分析但是你並沒有公開這是不是一個事實?我們在意的是安全的問題所以啊這是很安全那你既然拿到樣本我們有最好的分析人才既然拿到這個樣本日本也給你的為什麼不公開?你們就留著自己看這還是有很多外交的側面在所以我只問說這是不是一個事實?\n\n04:38.581 --> 04:55.076\n好主委您的態度我已經大概知道我也不為難你但是呢這大概牽涉到一些的外交的部分但是我也強調這個安全是非常的重要的所以呢主委你的態度已經說明了非常的多了但是呢我還是強調如果能夠請外交部來協助雖然我沒有進入這個組織但是不要每一次都只是在他們地方接受他們的這個所謂的簡報報告然後呢我們最要的就是\n\n05:04.244 --> 05:18.361\n希望你能夠拿到樣本然後能夠做好然後把這個數據告訴我們這才是一個能夠安定大家的方法只要你這麼有大的信心說他沒有任何的問題所以呢我們就要問嘛我剛剛說分析人才是非常的夠的啊但是我們核安的檢測人體到底夠不夠\n\n05:20.183 --> 05:43.051\n因為你看相對於海保署相對於海巡署相對於漁業署動輒上百人你核安的分析人力嘛你看目前的偵測專機就有12個再加上原來的國研院6個你18個你的解凍來說你們還告訴我這很多都是從國研院前身核研所來的而且屬於過度性質的員額那這個部分來說你覺得未來還有人力來做檢測嗎\n\n05:46.141 --> 06:13.839\n目前是沒有問題嗎目前是沒有問題目前沒有問題我跟委員報告偵測中心他是在高雄他是一個全部都是lab全部都是實驗室我等一下還會問到那兩個檢測包括高雄但是我只問到這個檢測的部分所以我還要特別問到剛剛大家非常的關切除了這個問題之外就等一下我們在解凍的時候可以來做討論因為我時間非常的有限我只知道擔心目前到底肥喝料有沒有人來管理因為你目前來說\n\n06:15.180 --> 06:22.446\n在第一年的時候這個有關放射性的廢棄物的處理的運轉人員的檢測在2016年的時候你有72人報考合格是41人到去年為止只剩下29個人合格15連5成都不到我是擔心到最後核廢掉都沒有專業人員要來做這樣的考核都沒有人來做這個處理然後你現在目前為止這個核廢掉該怎麼樣來做這是你應該要特別注意的\n\n06:43.501 --> 07:03.831\n時間關係所以我適度地要很快我上次有特別提到的核工人才核工人才裡面我們過去因為非常強調但這些人已經慢慢凋零了很多的核工人才都已經退休然後我們又不太重視核能所以以至於我們的人才目前為止都拿去給美國人使用了但是主委你知道嗎\n\n07:04.491 --> 07:13.177\n目前有英國把他們的合共的博士班送到我們台灣的清大因為他們有為期10天的反應器操作訓練課程主委你知道這件事嗎?\n\n07:14.309 --> 07:18.070\n昨年送來的一批17位英國把博士生送到我們台灣來今年有15位一向五年而且他們到2027年現在英國跟清大恰談第二個五年計畫所以呢我告訴你原因是什麼你看英國把他們的核工潤商送到我們台灣的清大來因為我們台灣清大還有這些食物可以教導他們\n\n07:38.795 --> 08:00.755\n我們現在的核工人才萬一哪一天我們的核能、核工又再一次的蓬勃的時候我們反而要把我們的人送到別人國家去我每次看到這件事情我就覺得很感慨啊別人送到我們這邊來然後我們這邊慢慢凋零完之後然後呢到最後萬一我們有些困境的話我們搞不好就變成下一個英國要把我們未來的很多的核工的人送到國外去你覺得會不會有這種可能\n\n08:01.936 --> 08:24.741\n我是很感嘆的我同意委員的看法人才培育的傳承是非常重要非常重要但是當你沒有這個市場當這個政府根本完全不在乎這個核能未來的發展的時候你就會變成別的國家來用我們這些的設備跟人才來去做的這是我們台灣高等教育、核工教育很大的一個悲哀啦主委這真的我要特別講啦好了解好然後就沒事啦\n\n08:28.852 --> 08:48.360\n我上一次有跟委員報告其實我們內部其實有在討論最後時間關係主席請給我一個個時間就好我要請衛福部我只要問一下我們目前的川的檢驗衛福部的部分因為都已經來了到最後你們來我們都沒讓你問到我們也覺得很不好意思我們還是要問一下\n\n08:49.961 --> 09:04.038\n對不起因為你們目前為止過去你告訴我說沒有辦法檢測因為你知道食藥署對於這些食品包括退官、銷毀跟退運這三種來處理這些方式嘛沒錯吧你們現在目前為止以前你們告訴我們說沒有辦法檢測到氚那目前來說因為你們說氚沒有限量標準嘛所以沒有辦法檢測\n\n09:09.364 --> 09:20.059\n那你目前有一個這個實施計畫專案對不對那我想請問石耀署是不是已經代表核廢水的川已經可以納入我們食品這個邊境的管制的行列來做一個檢測有沒有辦法\n\n09:22.379 --> 09:50.667\n跟委員報告目前確實有檢測方法但是他檢測的時間很長所以我們目前的做法是在輸入的當下去取樣然後然後驗完了以後再做看有沒有檢出去做監測那你不是說時間很長嗎對那這些食品怎麼辦不列入在邊境核判合格與否但是這會就是個破口喔這會是個破口喔\n\n09:51.207 --> 10:12.099\n我們持續監測目前都未檢出目前都未檢出都沒有檢出穿那是來自於你的儀器不夠呢還是怎麼樣因為你們現在已經有兩個你剛剛說從一家變成三家嘛對不對我們目前是就是高雄市衛生局還有我們的輻射偵測中心嘛你們要設置這個穿的實驗室嘛對那什麼時候可以監制\n\n10:16.349 --> 10:36.874\n高雄市目前建制中然後我們目前都有在檢測未估在今年年底前可以完成現在是6月是他們在協助高雄市來建立6月是不是好下一次520之後我就要好好來監督這個川的實驗室因為目前廢水含這個川我們還是會非常地重視這樣的一個問題好不好好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.924,"end":5.699,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是請我們的主委?邀請主委,謝謝"},{"start":11.992,"end":32.499,"text":"主委好,我們特別針對今天的主題有關於含氚廢水的問題因為大家都非常擔心是不是我們會吃到有關於這個放射性的食物然後我們的漁獲量、漁民也非常的關切嘛所以你認為從2020年這個議題出來之後因為它這個儲存的空間已經儲滿,所以它必須要排放你覺得這個會議重不重要?你覺得這個議題重不重要?"},{"start":35.305,"end":36.987,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":50.265,"end":50.685,"text":"主委、副主委有親自主持過嗎?"},{"start":67.031,"end":93.729,"text":"我們是主任秘書主持怎麼會是主任秘書呢你會不會覺得這個是延續過去沒有啊怎麼會延續過去我們來給你看一下我跟委員報告因為我們核安會改制之後我們副主委還是一樣只有剩一位他是一樣啊主委如果這很重要的話你過去都還是有個副主委你現在已經變成將級的單位沒有問題但是呢有你或是有你的副署長來出席是不是表達你對這件事情重要就你們都只派主秘"},{"start":94.449,"end":95.049,"text":"五二零之前什麼時候已經快要接近了?"},{"start":112.335,"end":134.121,"text":"沒有問題沒有問題就是會你我們就來看一下然後我們剛剛看到了我們非常關切有關於這個到底是你現在目前為止已經有5批次了我看到你的報告已經有5批次了但是呢主委你認為目前周邊是否還有沒有機會是檢測到輻射異常或是我們的漁獲會不會檢測出含氚或其他的放射性物質你目前"},{"start":140.663,"end":159.849,"text":"目前的檢測都沒有了但是這個牽扯到那個sampling就是你取點怎麼取點對這是最重要的好你沒有檢測到來諸位這是這個重點所在嘛因為你不要忘記我們這次的廢水要排放日本的廢水排放要30年連續30年的時間"},{"start":162.91,"end":168.596,"text":"那30年時間目前你都只能用多核種去核的這個設備嘛LPS來檢測嘛對不對但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚沒有問題吧其他都可以沒有辦法檢測到氚那你怎麼知你必須要透過稀釋過濾對這就是問題所在"},{"start":180.788,"end":203.898,"text":"所以未來這30年當中如果我們這個去放射性核種的效率變差了或者是SOP有任何的問題了最重要是我們沒有辦法參加IAEA的這個調查團我們台灣有最好的分析的人才我們只能得到間接的一個資料所以說呢你都沒有辦法到源頭來做一個取樣這是事實嗎"},{"start":205.322,"end":205.683,"text":"我們有到日本福島你有採樣嗎?"},{"start":223.487,"end":250.18,"text":"對我知道你很難講因為就我的理解就我的理解你的內部理念有拿到日本福島電廠給你們的樣本但是呢你們也做了分析但是你們不敢公開是不是有這件事因為是安全的因為安全的問題理由其實很大的理由就是因為日本給了台灣沒有給中國大陸所以呢因為沒有給中國大陸日本怕觸怒所以以至於你們有樣本你到現在為止都還沒有公開這是不是一個事實"},{"start":252.352,"end":275.574,"text":"主委這是不是一個事實?我有沒有給中國大陸我沒辦法告訴你日本沒有辦法告訴你但是你沒有拿到樣本你們也做了分析但是你並沒有公開這是不是一個事實?我們在意的是安全的問題所以啊這是很安全那你既然拿到樣本我們有最好的分析人才既然拿到這個樣本日本也給你的為什麼不公開?你們就留著自己看這還是有很多外交的側面在所以我只問說這是不是一個事實?"},{"start":278.581,"end":295.076,"text":"好 主委您的態度我已經大概知道我也不為難你但是呢這大概牽涉到一些的外交的部分但是我也強調這個安全是非常的重要的所以呢主委你的態度已經說明了非常的多了但是呢我還是強調如果能夠請外交部來協助雖然我沒有進入這個組織但是不要每一次都只是在他們地方接受他們的這個所謂的簡報報告然後呢我們最要的就是"},{"start":304.244,"end":318.361,"text":"希望你能夠拿到樣本然後能夠做好然後把這個數據告訴我們這才是一個能夠安定大家的方法只要你這麼有大的信心說他沒有任何的問題所以呢我們就要問嘛我剛剛說分析人才是非常的夠的啊但是我們核安的檢測人體到底夠不夠"},{"start":320.183,"end":343.051,"text":"因為你看相對於海保署相對於海巡署相對於漁業署動輒上百人你核安的分析人力嘛你看目前的偵測專機就有12個再加上原來的國研院6個你18個你的解凍來說你們還告訴我這很多都是從國研院前身核研所來的而且屬於過度性質的員額那這個部分來說你覺得未來還有人力來做檢測嗎"},{"start":346.141,"end":373.839,"text":"目前是沒有問題嗎目前是沒有問題目前沒有問題我跟委員報告偵測中心他是在高雄他是一個全部都是lab全部都是實驗室我等一下還會問到那兩個檢測包括高雄但是我只問到這個檢測的部分所以我還要特別問到剛剛大家非常的關切除了這個問題之外就等一下我們在解凍的時候可以來做討論因為我時間非常的有限我只知道擔心目前到底肥喝料有沒有人來管理因為你目前來說"},{"start":375.18,"end":382.446,"text":"在第一年的時候這個有關放射性的廢棄物的處理的運轉人員的檢測在2016年的時候你有72人報考合格是41人到去年為止只剩下29個人合格15連5成都不到我是擔心到最後核廢掉都沒有專業人員要來做這樣的考核都沒有人來做這個處理然後你現在目前為止這個核廢掉該怎麼樣來做這是你應該要特別注意的"},{"start":403.501,"end":423.831,"text":"時間關係所以我適度地要很快我上次有特別提到的核工人才核工人才裡面我們過去因為非常強調但這些人已經慢慢凋零了很多的核工人才都已經退休然後我們又不太重視核能所以以至於我們的人才目前為止都拿去給美國人使用了但是主委你知道嗎"},{"start":424.491,"end":433.177,"text":"目前有英國把他們的合共的博士班送到我們台灣的清大因為他們有為期10天的反應器操作訓練課程主委你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":434.309,"end":438.07,"text":"昨年送來的一批17位英國把博士生送到我們台灣來今年有15位一向五年而且他們到2027年現在英國跟清大恰談第二個五年計畫所以呢我告訴你原因是什麼你看英國把他們的核工潤商送到我們台灣的清大來因為我們台灣清大還有這些食物可以教導他們"},{"start":458.795,"end":480.755,"text":"我們現在的核工人才萬一哪一天我們的核能、核工又再一次的蓬勃的時候我們反而要把我們的人送到別人國家去我每次看到這件事情我就覺得很感慨啊別人送到我們這邊來然後我們這邊慢慢凋零完之後然後呢到最後萬一我們有些困境的話我們搞不好就變成下一個英國要把我們未來的很多的核工的人送到國外去你覺得會不會有這種可能"},{"start":481.936,"end":504.741,"text":"我是很感嘆的我同意委員的看法人才培育的傳承是非常重要非常重要但是當你沒有這個市場當這個政府根本完全不在乎這個核能未來的發展的時候你就會變成別的國家來用我們這些的設備跟人才來去做的這是我們台灣高等教育、核工教育很大的一個悲哀啦主委 這真的我要特別講啦好 了解好 然後就沒事啦"},{"start":508.852,"end":528.36,"text":"我上一次有跟委員報告其實我們內部其實有在討論最後時間關係主席請給我一個個時間就好我要請衛福部我只要問一下我們目前的川的檢驗衛福部的部分因為都已經來了到最後你們來我們都沒讓你問到我們也覺得很不好意思我們還是要問一下"},{"start":529.961,"end":544.038,"text":"對不起因為你們目前為止過去你告訴我說沒有辦法檢測因為你知道食藥署對於這些食品包括退官、銷毀跟退運這三種來處理這些方式嘛沒錯吧你們現在目前為止以前你們告訴我們說沒有辦法檢測到氚那目前來說因為你們說氚沒有限量標準嘛所以沒有辦法檢測"},{"start":549.364,"end":560.059,"text":"那你目前有一個這個實施計畫專案 對不對那我想請問石耀署是不是已經代表核廢水的川已經可以納入我們食品這個邊境的管制的行列來做一個檢測有沒有辦法"},{"start":562.379,"end":590.667,"text":"跟委員報告目前確實有檢測方法但是他檢測的時間很長所以我們目前的做法是在輸入的當下去取樣然後然後驗完了以後再做看有沒有檢出去做監測那你不是說時間很長嗎對那這些食品怎麼辦不列入在邊境核判合格與否但是這會就是個破口喔這會是個破口喔"},{"start":591.207,"end":612.099,"text":"我們持續監測目前都未檢出 目前都未檢出 都沒有檢出穿那是來自於你的儀器不夠呢 還是怎麼樣因為你們現在已經有兩個 你剛剛說從一家變成三家嘛 對不對我們目前是 就是 高雄市衛生局還有我們的輻射偵測中心嘛你們要設置這個穿的實驗室嘛 對 那什麼時候可以監制"},{"start":616.349,"end":636.874,"text":"高雄市目前建制中然後我們目前都有在檢測未估在今年年底前可以完成現在是6月是他們在協助高雄市來建立6月是不是好 下一次520之後我就要好好來監督這個川的實驗室因為目前廢水含這個川我們還是會非常地重視這樣的一個問題好不好好 謝謝"}]}}}}