{"id":151612,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151612","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3374c4c130c00db1be793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b84432d4ef907c701a5e415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:01:00 - 10:07:55","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":415,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:07:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:01:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":228,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請法律司好了，我直接問法律司。"],["主席：好，沈司長。"],["沈司長世偉：委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：司長好。我想說聚焦，因為今天畢竟我們是要討論這兩部法律，既然之後要開公聽會，那我們先看一下到底哪幾個法條是我們比較需要注意的。第一個，我先快速地理解一下，這個應該是舊有的流程圖，之前就軍人權益，只要有爭議的案件，包含申訴、權保相關的跟訴願。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：以前的這一套其實本來就是走現在的公務體系，也就是一般的行政、行政法院的體系、訴願等等之類的。第一件事情我想問，為什麼我們今天除了簡化的理由之外，還有什麼其他的理由？就是這一次想要修這兩部法律，具體的原因有什麼？"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員簡單報告，如果以軍人權益事件處理法來講，您秀的圖上面的這一類訴願，現在是國防部的訴願會在處理，而國防部訴願會現在處理的是官士兵記大過以上或是汰除退伍等等，這些是在訴願這邊來處理，它借用的是訴願法來處理這些事情。國防部對人民做了相關的處分之後，人民覺得不服要跟國防部訴願，本來應該在處理這些，但現在的訴願大概三分之二以上的人力都在處理官兵的懲罰案件。","第二個，中間這個權保，權保現在是用我們自己訂的行政規則，用一個審議要點跟一個設置要點，然後去找相關的委員，做了很久也很有成效。但問題是它都沒有一個法律的依據，這個其實也討論了很久。","還有第三個是申訴，現在懲罰法裡面有相關的一個申訴機制。這一次的修法，我們就是把懲罰規定了以後，所有的救濟把它單獨列出來，公務員有保訓會，但是保訓會不處理軍人；教師有教師的救濟制度；學生有學生的救濟制度；甚至於受刑人，監獄行刑法都有規定他的救濟制度，唯獨軍人要嘛借用訴願法，要嘛是自己訂的權保的行政規則，要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴，就是這麼一個單獨的條文，不夠完整。所以這一次我們整個檢討了之後，覺得就軍人權益的部分從怎麼樣受理案件、怎麼樣處理、怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟，都應該要有一個比較完整的相關規劃。","最後再跟委員報告，現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面明列只有撤職、降階、降級、悔過等等，就這種重大的懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。108年大法官會議第785號解釋在某個程度也有扞格，所以我們都是一併地做了三年多的研討，然後等於把這個單獨出來做一個立法。以上。"],["沈委員伯洋：這樣的話，其實對我來講，尤其是中間權保這一塊，把這個明文化應該是蠻重要的。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是我自己在看這個法條的時候，第一個，當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉，這個我覺得沒什麼問題；軍人權益事件處理法，跟你剛剛講的一樣，它把權保會的功能直接放上來。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：這邊有幾個小地方，一開始今天馬文君委員在講的時候，他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前軍審的復辟？其實以前在洪仲丘案的時候，最主要是指在非戰時的部分，讓他可以去一般的法院來做審理。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：其實跟這一個不一樣的地方在於，因為在那個時候導致不管我們的軍檢還有軍法官，說真的那時候他就變成無事可做，他要去做一些任務的轉換嘛！那一次的任務轉換之後，我們發現最主要都在做前面兩個，就是人權保障處跟法律服務處這兩塊。以前的這些人跑到人權保障處及法律服務處之後，現在看起來又要把他們拉回來做剛剛講的第二部法律的審查，所以我想要問的事情是，他們已經長期以來對於權利保障的事務可能相對熟悉，現在又要回來處理申訴、有點類司法的案件，現在有沒有相關的教育或者相關的program？"],["沈司長世偉：謝謝委員，中間我們都有在規劃。我跟委員報告，在102年修法之前，軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件，平時移到司法機關去了之後，我們的人員不是沒有事，我們把他們編到部隊裡面，他們在部隊裡面可以協助部隊長做很多的事情，尤其近年來做相關的軍事行動、協助ROE的推廣及教育等等，這些我們都有在做。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但我是說拉回來之後他們要做這個的話……"],["沈司長世偉：是，我們也不是把所有的人都拉回來，我們有統計過過去幾年的案量，懲罰的案件縱便有，我記得約莫2萬件，但不是所有的2萬件都會去救濟，真正進入到不論訴願也好、權保也好，救濟一年大概差不多七百多、八百件，至於未來會不會多或少還不一定。我們以700件來算的話，放在北部跟南部兩個救濟的單位做權保會的話，以我們需要的人力及後面的訓練，在訓練方面我們有跟司法院的先進做過聯繫，未來也可能要借重他們的協助。所以我們當初在審查的時候，我們也有跟行政院報告這個法通過之後，一定還是要給我們準備的時間，對於人力、教育訓練等等，我們都有相關的規劃。"],["沈委員伯洋：司法院應該要進來，這也是為什麼本委員會要跟司法及法制委員會聯席很重要的原因。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後我想問的是現行的制度，當然，很多人會覺得之後它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的，我看到巧芯委員的提案裡面也有提到是不是要排除特定的人，我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。但我想要問的事情是，的確再往下一個層次，我們今天要有外部人員在權保，要有公平，聽起來是好事，但是我舉個例子，像監獄行刑法，之前他們在做監獄相關視察的時候也有引進外部委員，結果他們的外部委員常常找不到人，變成矯正署自己去找外部委員，說真的也是找自己比較熟悉的人，那就失去外部的力道了。所以除了講到今天退役的人員到底要不要兼任之外，我覺得另外一個滿重要的問題，就是引進的外部人員到底有沒有這個量能，以及他們的pool可能在哪裡，我覺得這個可能是之後必須要研議的，不然的話，好不容易設計這個制度，本來是要有獨立性及實質審理，結果到最後失去獨立性之後，反而又回歸以前的樣貌，這可能不是我們所樂見的。謝謝。"],["沈司長世偉：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員，沈司長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是徐巧芯委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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398.423, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,896 --> 00:00:04,718\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具«軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n2\n00:00:27,529 --> 00:00:55,650\n就是說之前軍人權益只要有爭議的案件包含這個申訴、權保相關跟訴願那以前的這一套就是說以前的這一套其實它本來就是走現在的公務體系嘛那也就是一般的行政啊行政法院的體系啊它的訴願等等之類的那所以我覺得第一件事情想問的就是說為什麼我們今天要把它改成就除了簡化的理由之外還有什麼其他的理由是這一次想要去修這兩部法律那個具體的原因有什麼\n\n3\n00:00:56,030 --> 00:01:14,725\n我跟委員簡單報告,如果說是以軍人權益事件處理法來講,您現在看到您修的這個圖,上面這一類的訴願,訴願現在是在國防部的訴願會在處理。那國防部訴願會現在處理的是官司兵即大過以上,或是太處、退伍等等,這些是在訴願這邊來處理。那它借用的是訴願法。\n\n4\n00:01:15,506 --> 00:01:17,869\n徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n5\n00:01:30,703 --> 00:01:32,123\n二、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n6\n00:01:54,690 --> 00:02:08,717\n懲罰規定了以後那所有的救濟我們把它單獨列出來列出來一個公務員有保訓會但是保訓會不處理軍人教師有教師的救濟制度學生有學生的救濟制度甚至於受刑人都有監獄刑刑法都有規定他的救濟制度\n\n7\n00:02:09,577 --> 00:02:37,117\n維度軍人要嘛借用訴願法,要嘛是自己訂的全保的行政規則,那要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴的這一個,就是這麼一個單獨的條文,不夠完整。所以說這一次我們在整個檢討了之後,我們覺得說應該就軍人的權益的部分,從怎麼樣受理案件,怎麼樣去處理,怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟,都應該要有一個比較完整的一個相關的規劃。最後再跟我們報告,現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面,它有名列只有\n\n8\n00:02:37,777 --> 00:02:56,551\n撤職、降階、降級、悔貨等等這種重大懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。這個108年的大法官的解釋,785號解釋也有某個程度也有漢格,所以我們都是一併的做了三年多的研討,然後把這個堆單獨出來做一個立法,以上。\n\n9\n00:02:57,202 --> 00:03:16,745\n那這樣的話呢其實對我來講尤其是中間權保這一塊他把他這個名的話應該是蠻重要的那但是我自己在看這個法條的時候呢我覺得有幾個這個第一個當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉這個我覺得沒什麼問題那右邊這個權益事件處理法跟你剛剛講的這個一樣就是說他把這個權保會的這個功能直接把它放上來\n\n10\n00:03:17,546 --> 00:03:37,603\n但這邊我有幾個小地方就是說呢就是之前洪仲秋案先跳過就是說一開始今天這個馬雲軍委員在講的時候他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前這一個軍神的一個附辟那其實以前在洪仲秋案的時候呢最主要其實是指在非戰時的部分讓他可以進去一般的這一個法院來做審理\n\n11\n00:03:38,464 --> 00:03:39,164\n徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n12\n00:03:57,433 --> 00:03:58,994\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n13\n00:04:30,555 --> 00:04:53,469\n在102年修法之前,軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件。平時移到司法機關去了之後,我們的人員不是沒有事在那邊,我們把他編到部隊裡面去。他們在部隊裡面,他們可以協助部隊長做很多的事情,尤其近年來做相關的軍事行動,協助ROE的推廣跟教育等等,這些我們都有在做。\n\n14\n00:04:53,709 --> 00:05:11,258\n但我說拉回來之後他們要做這一個的嗎?拉回來之後我們也不是把所有的人都拉回來我們有統計過過去幾年的案量懲罰的案件中邊有可能我記得是大約約莫兩萬件但是不是所有兩萬件都會去救濟真正進入到不論溯源也好全保也好救濟一年大概差不多700多800件\n\n15\n00:05:12,278 --> 00:05:14,119\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n16\n00:05:40,868 --> 00:06:00,490\n對,因為這個司法院應該是要進來,這也是為什麼我們要跟這個司法法制要聯席的一個很重要的原因。然後最後一個我想再問的,這是現行的制度,就是說當然很多人會覺得說,那之後這個它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的,我看到這個巧芯委員的這個提案裡面也有在講說,那是不是要排除特定的人,我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。\n\n17\n00:06:01,571 --> 00:06:20,707\n但我這邊想要問的是事情就是說的確就是說再往下一個層次我們今天要有外部人員在這一個全保聽起來是好事嘛對不對要有公平但是我舉個例子不好意思我大概30秒就是說像監獄刑刑法他們之前在做這個監獄相關視察的時候他們也有引進外部委員結果他的外部委員常常找不到\n\n18\n00:06:21,307 --> 00:06:21,788\n徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n19\n00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:38,423\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n896\t4718\t事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n27529\t55650\t就是說之前軍人權益只要有爭議的案件包含這個申訴、權保相關跟訴願那以前的這一套就是說以前的這一套其實它本來就是走現在的公務體系嘛那也就是一般的行政啊行政法院的體系啊它的訴願等等之類的那所以我覺得第一件事情想問的就是說為什麼我們今天要把它改成就除了簡化的理由之外還有什麼其他的理由是這一次想要去修這兩部法律那個具體的原因有什麼\n56030\t74725\t我跟委員簡單報告,如果說是以軍人權益事件處理法來講,您現在看到您修的這個圖,上面這一類的訴願,訴願現在是在國防部的訴願會在處理。那國防部訴願會現在處理的是官司兵即大過以上,或是太處、退伍等等,這些是在訴願這邊來處理。那它借用的是訴願法。\n75506\t77869\t徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n90703\t92123\t二、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具\n114690\t128717\t懲罰規定了以後那所有的救濟我們把它單獨列出來列出來一個公務員有保訓會但是保訓會不處理軍人教師有教師的救濟制度學生有學生的救濟制度甚至於受刑人都有監獄刑刑法都有規定他的救濟制度\n129577\t157117\t維度軍人要嘛借用訴願法,要嘛是自己訂的全保的行政規則,那要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴的這一個,就是這麼一個單獨的條文,不夠完整。所以說這一次我們在整個檢討了之後,我們覺得說應該就軍人的權益的部分,從怎麼樣受理案件,怎麼樣去處理,怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟,都應該要有一個比較完整的一個相關的規劃。最後再跟我們報告,現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面,它有名列只有\n157777\t176551\t撤職、降階、降級、悔貨等等這種重大懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。這個108年的大法官的解釋,785號解釋也有某個程度也有漢格,所以我們都是一併的做了三年多的研討,然後把這個堆單獨出來做一個立法,以上。\n177202\t196745\t那這樣的話呢其實對我來講尤其是中間權保這一塊他把他這個名的話應該是蠻重要的那但是我自己在看這個法條的時候呢我覺得有幾個這個第一個當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉這個我覺得沒什麼問題那右邊這個權益事件處理法跟你剛剛講的這個一樣就是說他把這個權保會的這個功能直接把它放上來\n197546\t217603\t但這邊我有幾個小地方就是說呢就是之前洪仲秋案先跳過就是說一開始今天這個馬雲軍委員在講的時候他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前這一個軍神的一個附辟那其實以前在洪仲秋案的時候呢最主要其實是指在非戰時的部分讓他可以進去一般的這一個法院來做審理\n218464\t219164\t徐巧芯等20人擬具\n237433\t238994\t事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n270555\t293469\t在102年修法之前,軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件。平時移到司法機關去了之後,我們的人員不是沒有事在那邊,我們把他編到部隊裡面去。他們在部隊裡面,他們可以協助部隊長做很多的事情,尤其近年來做相關的軍事行動,協助ROE的推廣跟教育等等,這些我們都有在做。\n293709\t311258\t但我說拉回來之後他們要做這一個的嗎?拉回來之後我們也不是把所有的人都拉回來我們有統計過過去幾年的案量懲罰的案件中邊有可能我記得是大約約莫兩萬件但是不是所有兩萬件都會去救濟真正進入到不論溯源也好全保也好救濟一年大概差不多700多800件\n312278\t314119\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n340868\t360490\t對,因為這個司法院應該是要進來,這也是為什麼我們要跟這個司法法制要聯席的一個很重要的原因。然後最後一個我想再問的,這是現行的制度,就是說當然很多人會覺得說,那之後這個它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的,我看到這個巧芯委員的這個提案裡面也有在講說,那是不是要排除特定的人,我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。\n361571\t380707\t但我這邊想要問的是事情就是說的確就是說再往下一個層次我們今天要有外部人員在這一個全保聽起來是好事嘛對不對要有公平但是我舉個例子不好意思我大概30秒就是說像監獄刑刑法他們之前在做這個監獄相關視察的時候他們也有引進外部委員結果他的外部委員常常找不到\n381307\t381788\t徐巧芯等20人擬具\n396440\t398423\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案 案。\n","txt":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n就是說之前軍人權益只要有爭議的案件包含這個申訴、權保相關跟訴願那以前的這一套就是說以前的這一套其實它本來就是走現在的公務體系嘛那也就是一般的行政啊行政法院的體系啊它的訴願等等之類的那所以我覺得第一件事情想問的就是說為什麼我們今天要把它改成就除了簡化的理由之外還有什麼其他的理由是這一次想要去修這兩部法律那個具體的原因有什麼\n我跟委員簡單報告,如果說是以軍人權益事件處理法來講,您現在看到您修的這個圖,上面這一類的訴願,訴願現在是在國防部的訴願會在處理。那國防部訴願會現在處理的是官司兵即大過以上,或是太處、退伍等等,這些是在訴願這邊來處理。那它借用的是訴願法。\n徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n二、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具\n懲罰規定了以後那所有的救濟我們把它單獨列出來列出來一個公務員有保訓會但是保訓會不處理軍人教師有教師的救濟制度學生有學生的救濟制度甚至於受刑人都有監獄刑刑法都有規定他的救濟制度\n維度軍人要嘛借用訴願法,要嘛是自己訂的全保的行政規則,那要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴的這一個,就是這麼一個單獨的條文,不夠完整。所以說這一次我們在整個檢討了之後,我們覺得說應該就軍人的權益的部分,從怎麼樣受理案件,怎麼樣去處理,怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟,都應該要有一個比較完整的一個相關的規劃。最後再跟我們報告,現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面,它有名列只有\n撤職、降階、降級、悔貨等等這種重大懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。這個108年的大法官的解釋,785號解釋也有某個程度也有漢格,所以我們都是一併的做了三年多的研討,然後把這個堆單獨出來做一個立法,以上。\n那這樣的話呢其實對我來講尤其是中間權保這一塊他把他這個名的話應該是蠻重要的那但是我自己在看這個法條的時候呢我覺得有幾個這個第一個當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉這個我覺得沒什麼問題那右邊這個權益事件處理法跟你剛剛講的這個一樣就是說他把這個權保會的這個功能直接把它放上來\n但這邊我有幾個小地方就是說呢就是之前洪仲秋案先跳過就是說一開始今天這個馬雲軍委員在講的時候他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前這一個軍神的一個附辟那其實以前在洪仲秋案的時候呢最主要其實是指在非戰時的部分讓他可以進去一般的這一個法院來做審理\n徐巧芯等20人擬具\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n在102年修法之前,軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件。平時移到司法機關去了之後,我們的人員不是沒有事在那邊,我們把他編到部隊裡面去。他們在部隊裡面,他們可以協助部隊長做很多的事情,尤其近年來做相關的軍事行動,協助ROE的推廣跟教育等等,這些我們都有在做。\n但我說拉回來之後他們要做這一個的嗎?拉回來之後我們也不是把所有的人都拉回來我們有統計過過去幾年的案量懲罰的案件中邊有可能我記得是大約約莫兩萬件但是不是所有兩萬件都會去救濟真正進入到不論溯源也好全保也好救濟一年大概差不多700多800件\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n對,因為這個司法院應該是要進來,這也是為什麼我們要跟這個司法法制要聯席的一個很重要的原因。然後最後一個我想再問的,這是現行的制度,就是說當然很多人會覺得說,那之後這個它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的,我看到這個巧芯委員的這個提案裡面也有在講說,那是不是要排除特定的人,我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。\n但我這邊想要問的是事情就是說的確就是說再往下一個層次我們今天要有外部人員在這一個全保聽起來是好事嘛對不對要有公平但是我舉個例子不好意思我大概30秒就是說像監獄刑刑法他們之前在做這個監獄相關視察的時候他們也有引進外部委員結果他的外部委員常常找不到\n徐巧芯等20人擬具\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案 案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.896 --> 00:04.718\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具«軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n00:27.529 --> 00:55.650\n就是說之前軍人權益只要有爭議的案件包含這個申訴、權保相關跟訴願那以前的這一套就是說以前的這一套其實它本來就是走現在的公務體系嘛那也就是一般的行政啊行政法院的體系啊它的訴願等等之類的那所以我覺得第一件事情想問的就是說為什麼我們今天要把它改成就除了簡化的理由之外還有什麼其他的理由是這一次想要去修這兩部法律那個具體的原因有什麼\n\n00:56.030 --> 01:14.725\n我跟委員簡單報告,如果說是以軍人權益事件處理法來講,您現在看到您修的這個圖,上面這一類的訴願,訴願現在是在國防部的訴願會在處理。那國防部訴願會現在處理的是官司兵即大過以上,或是太處、退伍等等,這些是在訴願這邊來處理。那它借用的是訴願法。\n\n01:15.506 --> 01:17.869\n徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n01:30.703 --> 01:32.123\n二、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n01:54.690 --> 02:08.717\n懲罰規定了以後那所有的救濟我們把它單獨列出來列出來一個公務員有保訓會但是保訓會不處理軍人教師有教師的救濟制度學生有學生的救濟制度甚至於受刑人都有監獄刑刑法都有規定他的救濟制度\n\n02:09.577 --> 02:37.117\n維度軍人要嘛借用訴願法,要嘛是自己訂的全保的行政規則,那要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴的這一個,就是這麼一個單獨的條文,不夠完整。所以說這一次我們在整個檢討了之後,我們覺得說應該就軍人的權益的部分,從怎麼樣受理案件,怎麼樣去處理,怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟,都應該要有一個比較完整的一個相關的規劃。最後再跟我們報告,現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面,它有名列只有\n\n02:37.777 --> 02:56.551\n撤職、降階、降級、悔貨等等這種重大懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。這個108年的大法官的解釋,785號解釋也有某個程度也有漢格,所以我們都是一併的做了三年多的研討,然後把這個堆單獨出來做一個立法,以上。\n\n02:57.202 --> 03:16.745\n那這樣的話呢其實對我來講尤其是中間權保這一塊他把他這個名的話應該是蠻重要的那但是我自己在看這個法條的時候呢我覺得有幾個這個第一個當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉這個我覺得沒什麼問題那右邊這個權益事件處理法跟你剛剛講的這個一樣就是說他把這個權保會的這個功能直接把它放上來\n\n03:17.546 --> 03:37.603\n但這邊我有幾個小地方就是說呢就是之前洪仲秋案先跳過就是說一開始今天這個馬雲軍委員在講的時候他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前這一個軍神的一個附辟那其實以前在洪仲秋案的時候呢最主要其實是指在非戰時的部分讓他可以進去一般的這一個法院來做審理\n\n03:38.464 --> 03:39.164\n徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n03:57.433 --> 03:58.994\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n04:30.555 --> 04:53.469\n在102年修法之前,軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件。平時移到司法機關去了之後,我們的人員不是沒有事在那邊,我們把他編到部隊裡面去。他們在部隊裡面,他們可以協助部隊長做很多的事情,尤其近年來做相關的軍事行動,協助ROE的推廣跟教育等等,這些我們都有在做。\n\n04:53.709 --> 05:11.258\n但我說拉回來之後他們要做這一個的嗎?拉回來之後我們也不是把所有的人都拉回來我們有統計過過去幾年的案量懲罰的案件中邊有可能我記得是大約約莫兩萬件但是不是所有兩萬件都會去救濟真正進入到不論溯源也好全保也好救濟一年大概差不多700多800件\n\n05:12.278 --> 05:14.119\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n05:40.868 --> 06:00.490\n對,因為這個司法院應該是要進來,這也是為什麼我們要跟這個司法法制要聯席的一個很重要的原因。然後最後一個我想再問的,這是現行的制度,就是說當然很多人會覺得說,那之後這個它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的,我看到這個巧芯委員的這個提案裡面也有在講說,那是不是要排除特定的人,我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。\n\n06:01.571 --> 06:20.707\n但我這邊想要問的是事情就是說的確就是說再往下一個層次我們今天要有外部人員在這一個全保聽起來是好事嘛對不對要有公平但是我舉個例子不好意思我大概30秒就是說像監獄刑刑法他們之前在做這個監獄相關視察的時候他們也有引進外部委員結果他的外部委員常常找不到\n\n06:21.307 --> 06:21.788\n徐巧芯等20人擬具\n\n06:36.440 --> 06:38.423\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.896,"end":4.718,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具 «軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":27.529,"end":55.65,"text":"就是說之前軍人權益只要有爭議的案件包含這個申訴、權保相關跟訴願那以前的這一套就是說以前的這一套其實它本來就是走現在的公務體系嘛那也就是一般的行政啊行政法院的體系啊它的訴願等等之類的那所以我覺得第一件事情想問的就是說為什麼我們今天要把它改成就除了簡化的理由之外還有什麼其他的理由是這一次想要去修這兩部法律那個具體的原因有什麼"},{"start":56.03,"end":74.725,"text":"我跟委員簡單報告,如果說是以軍人權益事件處理法來講,您現在看到您修的這個圖,上面這一類的訴願,訴願現在是在國防部的訴願會在處理。那國防部訴願會現在處理的是官司兵即大過以上,或是太處、退伍等等,這些是在訴願這邊來處理。那它借用的是訴願法。"},{"start":75.506,"end":77.869,"text":"徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":90.703,"end":92.123,"text":"二、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":114.69,"end":128.717,"text":"懲罰規定了以後那所有的救濟我們把它單獨列出來列出來一個公務員有保訓會但是保訓會不處理軍人教師有教師的救濟制度學生有學生的救濟制度甚至於受刑人都有監獄刑刑法都有規定他的救濟制度"},{"start":129.577,"end":157.117,"text":"維度軍人要嘛借用訴願法,要嘛是自己訂的全保的行政規則,那要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴的這一個,就是這麼一個單獨的條文,不夠完整。所以說這一次我們在整個檢討了之後,我們覺得說應該就軍人的權益的部分,從怎麼樣受理案件,怎麼樣去處理,怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟,都應該要有一個比較完整的一個相關的規劃。最後再跟我們報告,現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面,它有名列只有"},{"start":157.777,"end":176.551,"text":"撤職、降階、降級、悔貨等等這種重大懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。這個108年的大法官的解釋,785號解釋也有某個程度也有漢格,所以我們都是一併的做了三年多的研討,然後把這個堆單獨出來做一個立法,以上。"},{"start":177.202,"end":196.745,"text":"那這樣的話呢其實對我來講尤其是中間權保這一塊他把他這個名的話應該是蠻重要的那但是我自己在看這個法條的時候呢我覺得有幾個這個第一個當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉這個我覺得沒什麼問題那右邊這個權益事件處理法跟你剛剛講的這個一樣就是說他把這個權保會的這個功能直接把它放上來"},{"start":197.546,"end":217.603,"text":"但這邊我有幾個小地方就是說呢就是之前洪仲秋案先跳過就是說一開始今天這個馬雲軍委員在講的時候他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前這一個軍神的一個附辟那其實以前在洪仲秋案的時候呢最主要其實是指在非戰時的部分讓他可以進去一般的這一個法院來做審理"},{"start":218.464,"end":219.164,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":237.433,"end":238.994,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":270.555,"end":293.469,"text":"在102年修法之前,軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件。平時移到司法機關去了之後,我們的人員不是沒有事在那邊,我們把他編到部隊裡面去。他們在部隊裡面,他們可以協助部隊長做很多的事情,尤其近年來做相關的軍事行動,協助ROE的推廣跟教育等等,這些我們都有在做。"},{"start":293.709,"end":311.258,"text":"但我說拉回來之後他們要做這一個的嗎?拉回來之後我們也不是把所有的人都拉回來我們有統計過過去幾年的案量懲罰的案件中邊有可能我記得是大約約莫兩萬件但是不是所有兩萬件都會去救濟真正進入到不論溯源也好全保也好救濟一年大概差不多700多800件"},{"start":312.278,"end":314.119,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":340.868,"end":360.49,"text":"對,因為這個司法院應該是要進來,這也是為什麼我們要跟這個司法法制要聯席的一個很重要的原因。然後最後一個我想再問的,這是現行的制度,就是說當然很多人會覺得說,那之後這個它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的,我看到這個巧芯委員的這個提案裡面也有在講說,那是不是要排除特定的人,我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。"},{"start":361.571,"end":380.707,"text":"但我這邊想要問的是事情就是說的確就是說再往下一個層次我們今天要有外部人員在這一個全保聽起來是好事嘛對不對要有公平但是我舉個例子不好意思我大概30秒就是說像監獄刑刑法他們之前在做這個監獄相關視察的時候他們也有引進外部委員結果他的外部委員常常找不到"},{"start":381.307,"end":381.788,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":396.44,"end":398.423,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案 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