{"id":151616,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb31d75b2bb57def969e793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b844322648cbe450dbf9495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:08:17 - 10:16:39","影片長度":"00:08:22","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":502,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:16:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:08:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":256,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時8分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：邱國正部長請。"],["邱部長國正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。今天接下來要新增的兩部法律，其實對於我國國軍來說，我認為都是相當有必要的，所以我們原則上會來支持。在陸海空軍懲罰法裡面，也被一些司法人員認為有一些偷渡到了刑事法裡面的制度及概念，到底合不合宜，希望能夠好好地討論，畢竟像另外一部公務員懲戒法裡面也沒有塞進刑事法的東西。","我們就先看刑事訴訟法第二百三十條第一項：「下列各員為司法警察官，應受檢察官之指揮，偵查犯罪：一、警察官長。二、憲兵隊官長、士官。三、依法令關於特定事項，得行司法警察官之職權者。」刑事訴訟法第二百三十一條第一項：「下列各員為司法警察，應受檢察官及司法警察官之命令，偵查犯罪：一、警察。二、憲兵。三、依法令關於特定事項，得行司法警察之職權者」。","也就是說，檢察官的系統裡面，本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢事官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮，我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下，憲兵隊、調查官處理，難道不夠嗎？為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去？感覺上一般來說好像有一點疊床架屋的情形。再來，法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作，現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎？在這個制度的設計部分，部長是怎麼想的？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告兩點：第一個，搶憲兵的工作？不會，憲兵的工作很多，減輕他們的工作是我們努力的目標。第二個，剛剛講到調查官好像有點疊床架屋，又把軍法放進來，事實上，他們的內容、型態不一樣，調查官只對一個案件調查，但他調查的結果由誰來判定？不是調查官來判定，所以層次不同。另外來講，我們累積那麼多年的經驗，也發現軍法存在的必要是有的，為什麼？因為很多案件已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位、其他部門會有關聯，所以要有軍法，但調查官沒有辦法介入這個。所以在分工、職掌上，本來我們過去有這種分工、職掌，但是在執行當中可能有了偏差，所以我們要重新來律定，完了以後把這個職掌劃分得很清楚，不會有疊床架屋的問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以就是職掌必須要清楚，避免疊床架屋。"],["邱部長國正：是，一定。"],["徐委員巧芯：第二個問題是，檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡？違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為，檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是刑事性質的偵查，很難想像我們的行政行為怎麼會突然變成刑事行為，同一批的行政調查人員一夕之間變成刑事偵查人員，不管是程序上面或是主體上面都做了很大的改變，這個對於我們過去看待法律來說的話，是很少會有這種情況的。可不可以說明一下，今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序，如果違紀調查是行政的，檢察官指揮偵辦又是刑事的，像這個到底是行政還是刑事，後續法律通過之後，應該如何區分呢？"],["邱部長國正：我個人有經驗，跟委員做個簡單的說明。往往行政及內部調查，跟檢調介入以後，差別很大在哪裡？我們先調查是我們內部裡面，但調查以後不代表一個結論，所以很多事情一定要經過檢調，檢調有其規則，檢調查了一半，不能擅自發表言論，否則等於就是未審先定罪，這是很不道德的，我們為什麼會有這種編組，也就為了防止這種現象產生。詳細的部分，是不是請法律司司長再跟您做簡單的說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：沒問題，來，跟我們說明一下。"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員簡單報告，一個違紀事件有的時候外觀看起來是違紀事件，不論是內部的法務人員也好或是監察官也好，開始調查了之後，有的時候一查才發覺這裡面可能有涉嫌違法，不管是竊盜也好、偽造文書也好，要根據不同的態樣，但是一開始違法之後，違法本來就是應該由依法有權偵辦的人來辦，這個時候如果程序全部再從頭跑一趟，就有點不經濟。所以相關介接的制度，我們當初跟法務部都有做過一些協調，任何一個違紀案件開始查的過程當中發覺有可能違法，可能就要跟檢察官先報告一下，請檢察官針對職權看後續怎麼介入、怎麼指揮，原來調查的東西將來怎麼在法庭上運用變成證據等等……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，先報告嘛。"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：這樣我聽懂了，但是後面就會有下一個問題衍生，就是草案第四十四條寫的，偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰，如果檢察官沒有同意呢？檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難？以及究竟由權責長官來辦理懲罰，會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定？也就是說，因為過去所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系是完全一條龍的，要對的對象也只有法官及自己的自律，如果現在的狀況是檢察官同意後要移送的是權責長官，就會有所謂的偵查不公開的問題，還有檢察官同不同意的問題，會使得這個制度上面的運作跟過去只是一般司法檢調的運作有很大的落差。所以最後要也要請你們補充的是，偵查不公開在這個法裡面，它會適用於哪些主體？有沒有包含行政調查？簡單回應就可以了，簡單回應就好。"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["沈司長世偉：委員，我很簡單報告，如果任何一個案件調查，它有涉及到刑事偵查的時候，如果檢察官認為這個會妨礙他後續的偵查作為，也就是牽涉到偵查不公開核心的時候，我們會尊重檢察官。這個時候相關的東西，檢察官認為什麼事情可以去處理、什麼事情可能他扣了以後也不能夠讓我們做後續行政調查來看等等，這些東西我們都會尊重檢察官，兩個中間有競合、有牴觸的時候，我們會以尊重檢察官的前提為原則。"],["徐委員巧芯：我最後一個小問題，這部法律上路之後，我可不可以解讀為行政調查的機會就變小了？刑事調查的部分會比例拉高？不一定？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，不會。刑事偵查不會影響到行政調查。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊，對啊！"],["沈司長世偉：行政調查，我們該做的東西，我們還是做。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是因為我們平常問很多問題，只要一旦進入到刑事調查了，你們就很容易告訴我們說因為它已經進到刑事調查，所以行政調查的部分也不予提供，這樣子來說，是不是就對我們在問政上就會產生一些問題呢？沒關係，我時間到了，也不需要特別回答，我們只是希望說，未來行政調查跟刑事調查，我們都知道它是分開的，但分開之後，在行政調查部分，權責上能夠提供給立法院的都應該要儘快的、儘速的來回復立法院，而不是推給說這個案子已經在刑事調查了就不能提供好嗎？謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（林委員楚茵代）：接下來請王定宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 502.552, \"score\": 0.005}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,850 --> 00:00:26,752\n謝謝主席,我們有請邱部長邱國志部長請許委員好部長好,我想今天針對我們接下來要新增的兩部法律其實對於我國國軍來說,我認為都是相當有必要的所以我們原則上會來支持那呢,在這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面\n\n2\n00:00:28,553 --> 00:00:31,095\n公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。五、審查公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。\n\n3\n00:00:47,569 --> 00:01:06,741\n行事訴訟法第230條下列各員為司法警官、受僱檢察官之指揮之審查犯罪,包含警察官長、憲兵隊的官長、士官、依法令屬於特定事項、得刑司法警官之職權者。\n\n4\n00:01:08,042 --> 00:01:27,836\n行事訴訟法231條第1項,下列各原為司法檢查,應受檢察官及法令警官之命令偵查犯罪,包含檢察憲兵,依法令與特定事項,得行司法檢查之職權者。\n\n5\n00:01:29,557 --> 00:01:56,901\n也就是說呢,檢察官的系統裡面,他們本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢視官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮。那我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下,憲兵對調查官處理難道不夠嗎?為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去?感覺上面一般來說是覺得好像有一點跌床架屋的情形。\n\n6\n00:01:57,521 --> 00:02:06,335\n再來,法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作,現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎?在這個設計的部分,布板是怎麼想的?\n\n7\n00:02:11,038 --> 00:02:28,940\n我跟委員報了兩點,第一個搶憲民工作不會,憲民工作很多,我們只要是減輕他工作是我們要努力的目標。第二個,剛才講到調查官有,有的用疊床架又把軍法放進來。事實上他的內容形態不一樣,調查官他只對一個案件調查。\n\n8\n00:02:29,881 --> 00:02:57,717\n但他的調查結果由誰來判定那不是調查官來判定所以這個層次不同但另外一講我們累計了那麼多人的經驗也發現軍法存在必要是有的為什麼因為很多案件他已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位跟其他的部門會有關聯所以要有軍法那這個調查官沒有辦法介入所以我想這個分工執掌從過去本來有這種分工有執掌\n\n9\n00:02:58,317 --> 00:03:23,002\n但在質詢當中可能有偏差。所以我們要重新來律定完了以後,把這個職長劃分很清楚,不會有跌場架屋的問題。所以就是職長必須要清楚,並且跌場架屋嘛。那第二個問題是呢,檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡?違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為,檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是\n\n10\n00:03:23,522 --> 00:03:27,325\n刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查\n\n11\n00:03:44,280 --> 00:04:05,598\n這個對於我們過去看待法律來說的話是很少會有這種情況的所以可以說明一下說你今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序如果是違紀調查是行政的檢察官指揮偵辦又是刑事的像這個到底是行政還是刑事我們後續法律通過之後我們應該能夠如何區分呢\n\n12\n00:04:06,078 --> 00:04:31,806\n我個人有經驗,簡單說明,這往往就行政大跟內部檢調就以後,差別很大在哪裡?我們先調查內部,但調查以後它不代表一個結論,所以很多事情一定要經過檢調,檢調它有它的規則檢調查了一半,你不能擅自發表你的言論,等於是為了先把它給定罪,這是很不道德的\n\n13\n00:04:32,306 --> 00:04:57,743\n所以我們為什麼會有這種編組,也就為了防止這些工作,這個現象產生。詳細的部分我請法律司法長再跟您做簡單的說明。所以我跟委員簡單報告,一個違紀事件,它有的時候外觀看起來是一個違紀事件,那這個違紀事件當不論是內部的法務人員也好,或是監察官也好,開始調查了之後,有的時候一查才發覺說,喔這裡面可能有涉嫌違法,\n\n14\n00:04:58,143 --> 00:05:00,905\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。\n\n15\n00:05:23,999 --> 00:05:25,280\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n16\n00:05:39,085 --> 00:05:58,958\n就是偵查當中草案第44條裏面寫道偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰那如果檢察官他沒有同意呢那檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難以及呢究竟是不是權責長官來辦理懲罰\n\n17\n00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:16,351\n會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定?也就是說因為過去這個所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系他是完全一條龍的他要對的對象其實也只有跟法官這邊還有他自己的自律那如果現在的\n\n18\n00:06:16,391 --> 00:06:23,432\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n19\n00:06:45,643 --> 00:06:54,330\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。\n\n20\n00:07:15,526 --> 00:07:19,167\n國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n\n21\n00:07:34,452 --> 00:07:52,464\n行事偵查不會影響到行政調查。行政調查我們該做的東西我們還是做。但是因為我們平常是問很多問題只要一旦進入到行政、行事調查了你們就很容易告訴我們說因為他已經進到行事調查所以行政調查的部分也不予提供\n\n22\n00:07:52,924 --> 00:07:53,424\n負責任職責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任\n\n23\n00:08:21,735 --> 00:08:22,552\n徐巧芯等20人\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n850\t26752\t謝謝主席,我們有請邱部長邱國志部長請許委員好部長好,我想今天針對我們接下來要新增的兩部法律其實對於我國國軍來說,我認為都是相當有必要的所以我們原則上會來支持那呢,在這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面\n28553\t31095\t公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。五、審查公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。\n47569\t66741\t行事訴訟法第230條下列各員為司法警官、受僱檢察官之指揮之審查犯罪,包含警察官長、憲兵隊的官長、士官、依法令屬於特定事項、得刑司法警官之職權者。\n68042\t87836\t行事訴訟法231條第1項,下列各原為司法檢查,應受檢察官及法令警官之命令偵查犯罪,包含檢察憲兵,依法令與特定事項,得行司法檢查之職權者。\n89557\t116901\t也就是說呢,檢察官的系統裡面,他們本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢視官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮。那我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下,憲兵對調查官處理難道不夠嗎?為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去?感覺上面一般來說是覺得好像有一點跌床架屋的情形。\n117521\t126335\t再來,法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作,現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎?在這個設計的部分,布板是怎麼想的?\n131038\t148940\t我跟委員報了兩點,第一個搶憲民工作不會,憲民工作很多,我們只要是減輕他工作是我們要努力的目標。第二個,剛才講到調查官有,有的用疊床架又把軍法放進來。事實上他的內容形態不一樣,調查官他只對一個案件調查。\n149881\t177717\t但他的調查結果由誰來判定那不是調查官來判定所以這個層次不同但另外一講我們累計了那麼多人的經驗也發現軍法存在必要是有的為什麼因為很多案件他已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位跟其他的部門會有關聯所以要有軍法那這個調查官沒有辦法介入所以我想這個分工執掌從過去本來有這種分工有執掌\n178317\t203002\t但在質詢當中可能有偏差。所以我們要重新來律定完了以後,把這個職長劃分很清楚,不會有跌場架屋的問題。所以就是職長必須要清楚,並且跌場架屋嘛。那第二個問題是呢,檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡?違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為,檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是\n203522\t207325\t刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查\n224280\t245598\t這個對於我們過去看待法律來說的話是很少會有這種情況的所以可以說明一下說你今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序如果是違紀調查是行政的檢察官指揮偵辦又是刑事的像這個到底是行政還是刑事我們後續法律通過之後我們應該能夠如何區分呢\n246078\t271806\t我個人有經驗,簡單說明,這往往就行政大跟內部檢調就以後,差別很大在哪裡?我們先調查內部,但調查以後它不代表一個結論,所以很多事情一定要經過檢調,檢調它有它的規則檢調查了一半,你不能擅自發表你的言論,等於是為了先把它給定罪,這是很不道德的\n272306\t297743\t所以我們為什麼會有這種編組,也就為了防止這些工作,這個現象產生。詳細的部分我請法律司法長再跟您做簡單的說明。所以我跟委員簡單報告,一個違紀事件,它有的時候外觀看起來是一個違紀事件,那這個違紀事件當不論是內部的法務人員也好,或是監察官也好,開始調查了之後,有的時候一查才發覺說,喔這裡面可能有涉嫌違法,\n298143\t300905\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。\n323999\t325280\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n339085\t358958\t就是偵查當中草案第44條裏面寫道偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰那如果檢察官他沒有同意呢那檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難以及呢究竟是不是權責長官來辦理懲罰\n361620\t376351\t會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定?也就是說因為過去這個所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系他是完全一條龍的他要對的對象其實也只有跟法官這邊還有他自己的自律那如果現在的\n376391\t383432\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n405643\t414330\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。\n435526\t439167\t國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n454452\t472464\t行事偵查不會影響到行政調查。行政調查我們該做的東西我們還是做。但是因為我們平常是問很多問題只要一旦進入到行政、行事調查了你們就很容易告訴我們說因為他已經進到行事調查所以行政調查的部分也不予提供\n472924\t473424\t負責任職責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任\n501735\t502552\t徐巧芯等20人\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們有請邱部長邱國志部長請許委員好部長好,我想今天針對我們接下來要新增的兩部法律其實對於我國國軍來說,我認為都是相當有必要的所以我們原則上會來支持那呢,在這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面\n公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。五、審查公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。\n行事訴訟法第230條下列各員為司法警官、受僱檢察官之指揮之審查犯罪,包含警察官長、憲兵隊的官長、士官、依法令屬於特定事項、得刑司法警官之職權者。\n行事訴訟法231條第1項,下列各原為司法檢查,應受檢察官及法令警官之命令偵查犯罪,包含檢察憲兵,依法令與特定事項,得行司法檢查之職權者。\n也就是說呢,檢察官的系統裡面,他們本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢視官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮。那我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下,憲兵對調查官處理難道不夠嗎?為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去?感覺上面一般來說是覺得好像有一點跌床架屋的情形。\n再來,法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作,現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎?在這個設計的部分,布板是怎麼想的?\n我跟委員報了兩點,第一個搶憲民工作不會,憲民工作很多,我們只要是減輕他工作是我們要努力的目標。第二個,剛才講到調查官有,有的用疊床架又把軍法放進來。事實上他的內容形態不一樣,調查官他只對一個案件調查。\n但他的調查結果由誰來判定那不是調查官來判定所以這個層次不同但另外一講我們累計了那麼多人的經驗也發現軍法存在必要是有的為什麼因為很多案件他已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位跟其他的部門會有關聯所以要有軍法那這個調查官沒有辦法介入所以我想這個分工執掌從過去本來有這種分工有執掌\n但在質詢當中可能有偏差。所以我們要重新來律定完了以後,把這個職長劃分很清楚,不會有跌場架屋的問題。所以就是職長必須要清楚,並且跌場架屋嘛。那第二個問題是呢,檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡?違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為,檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是\n刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查\n這個對於我們過去看待法律來說的話是很少會有這種情況的所以可以說明一下說你今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序如果是違紀調查是行政的檢察官指揮偵辦又是刑事的像這個到底是行政還是刑事我們後續法律通過之後我們應該能夠如何區分呢\n我個人有經驗,簡單說明,這往往就行政大跟內部檢調就以後,差別很大在哪裡?我們先調查內部,但調查以後它不代表一個結論,所以很多事情一定要經過檢調,檢調它有它的規則檢調查了一半,你不能擅自發表你的言論,等於是為了先把它給定罪,這是很不道德的\n所以我們為什麼會有這種編組,也就為了防止這些工作,這個現象產生。詳細的部分我請法律司法長再跟您做簡單的說明。所以我跟委員簡單報告,一個違紀事件,它有的時候外觀看起來是一個違紀事件,那這個違紀事件當不論是內部的法務人員也好,或是監察官也好,開始調查了之後,有的時候一查才發覺說,喔這裡面可能有涉嫌違法,\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n就是偵查當中草案第44條裏面寫道偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰那如果檢察官他沒有同意呢那檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難以及呢究竟是不是權責長官來辦理懲罰\n會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定?也就是說因為過去這個所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系他是完全一條龍的他要對的對象其實也只有跟法官這邊還有他自己的自律那如果現在的\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。\n國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n行事偵查不會影響到行政調查。行政調查我們該做的東西我們還是做。但是因為我們平常是問很多問題只要一旦進入到行政、行事調查了你們就很容易告訴我們說因為他已經進到行事調查所以行政調查的部分也不予提供\n負責任職責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任\n徐巧芯等20人\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.850 --> 00:26.752\n謝謝主席,我們有請邱部長邱國志部長請許委員好部長好,我想今天針對我們接下來要新增的兩部法律其實對於我國國軍來說,我認為都是相當有必要的所以我們原則上會來支持那呢,在這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面\n\n00:28.553 --> 00:31.095\n公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。五、審查公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。\n\n00:47.569 --> 01:06.741\n行事訴訟法第230條下列各員為司法警官、受僱檢察官之指揮之審查犯罪,包含警察官長、憲兵隊的官長、士官、依法令屬於特定事項、得刑司法警官之職權者。\n\n01:08.042 --> 01:27.836\n行事訴訟法231條第1項,下列各原為司法檢查,應受檢察官及法令警官之命令偵查犯罪,包含檢察憲兵,依法令與特定事項,得行司法檢查之職權者。\n\n01:29.557 --> 01:56.901\n也就是說呢,檢察官的系統裡面,他們本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢視官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮。那我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下,憲兵對調查官處理難道不夠嗎?為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去?感覺上面一般來說是覺得好像有一點跌床架屋的情形。\n\n01:57.521 --> 02:06.335\n再來,法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作,現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎?在這個設計的部分,布板是怎麼想的?\n\n02:11.038 --> 02:28.940\n我跟委員報了兩點,第一個搶憲民工作不會,憲民工作很多,我們只要是減輕他工作是我們要努力的目標。第二個,剛才講到調查官有,有的用疊床架又把軍法放進來。事實上他的內容形態不一樣,調查官他只對一個案件調查。\n\n02:29.881 --> 02:57.717\n但他的調查結果由誰來判定那不是調查官來判定所以這個層次不同但另外一講我們累計了那麼多人的經驗也發現軍法存在必要是有的為什麼因為很多案件他已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位跟其他的部門會有關聯所以要有軍法那這個調查官沒有辦法介入所以我想這個分工執掌從過去本來有這種分工有執掌\n\n02:58.317 --> 03:23.002\n但在質詢當中可能有偏差。所以我們要重新來律定完了以後,把這個職長劃分很清楚,不會有跌場架屋的問題。所以就是職長必須要清楚,並且跌場架屋嘛。那第二個問題是呢,檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡?違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為,檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是\n\n03:23.522 --> 03:27.325\n刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查\n\n03:44.280 --> 04:05.598\n這個對於我們過去看待法律來說的話是很少會有這種情況的所以可以說明一下說你今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序如果是違紀調查是行政的檢察官指揮偵辦又是刑事的像這個到底是行政還是刑事我們後續法律通過之後我們應該能夠如何區分呢\n\n04:06.078 --> 04:31.806\n我個人有經驗,簡單說明,這往往就行政大跟內部檢調就以後,差別很大在哪裡?我們先調查內部,但調查以後它不代表一個結論,所以很多事情一定要經過檢調,檢調它有它的規則檢調查了一半,你不能擅自發表你的言論,等於是為了先把它給定罪,這是很不道德的\n\n04:32.306 --> 04:57.743\n所以我們為什麼會有這種編組,也就為了防止這些工作,這個現象產生。詳細的部分我請法律司法長再跟您做簡單的說明。所以我跟委員簡單報告,一個違紀事件,它有的時候外觀看起來是一個違紀事件,那這個違紀事件當不論是內部的法務人員也好,或是監察官也好,開始調查了之後,有的時候一查才發覺說,喔這裡面可能有涉嫌違法,\n\n04:58.143 --> 05:00.905\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。\n\n05:23.999 --> 05:25.280\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n05:39.085 --> 05:58.958\n就是偵查當中草案第44條裏面寫道偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰那如果檢察官他沒有同意呢那檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難以及呢究竟是不是權責長官來辦理懲罰\n\n06:01.620 --> 06:16.351\n會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定?也就是說因為過去這個所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系他是完全一條龍的他要對的對象其實也只有跟法官這邊還有他自己的自律那如果現在的\n\n06:16.391 --> 06:23.432\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n06:45.643 --> 06:54.330\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。\n\n07:15.526 --> 07:19.167\n國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n\n07:34.452 --> 07:52.464\n行事偵查不會影響到行政調查。行政調查我們該做的東西我們還是做。但是因為我們平常是問很多問題只要一旦進入到行政、行事調查了你們就很容易告訴我們說因為他已經進到行事調查所以行政調查的部分也不予提供\n\n07:52.924 --> 07:53.424\n負責任職責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任\n\n08:21.735 --> 08:22.552\n徐巧芯等20人\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.85,"end":26.752,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請邱部長邱國志部長請許委員好部長好,我想今天針對我們接下來要新增的兩部法律其實對於我國國軍來說,我認為都是相當有必要的所以我們原則上會來支持那呢,在這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面"},{"start":28.553,"end":31.095,"text":"公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。五、審查公務人員懲戒法修正草案案。"},{"start":47.569,"end":66.741,"text":"行事訴訟法第230條下列各員為司法警官、受僱檢察官之指揮之審查犯罪,包含警察官長、憲兵隊的官長、士官、依法令屬於特定事項、得刑司法警官之職權者。"},{"start":68.042,"end":87.836,"text":"行事訴訟法231條第1項,下列各原為司法檢查,應受檢察官及法令警官之命令偵查犯罪,包含檢察憲兵,依法令與特定事項,得行司法檢查之職權者。"},{"start":89.557,"end":116.901,"text":"也就是說呢,檢察官的系統裡面,他們本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢視官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮。那我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下,憲兵對調查官處理難道不夠嗎?為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去?感覺上面一般來說是覺得好像有一點跌床架屋的情形。"},{"start":117.521,"end":126.335,"text":"再來,法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作,現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎?在這個設計的部分,布板是怎麼想的?"},{"start":131.038,"end":148.94,"text":"我跟委員報了兩點,第一個搶憲民工作不會,憲民工作很多,我們只要是減輕他工作是我們要努力的目標。第二個,剛才講到調查官有,有的用疊床架又把軍法放進來。事實上他的內容形態不一樣,調查官他只對一個案件調查。"},{"start":149.881,"end":177.717,"text":"但他的調查結果由誰來判定那不是調查官來判定所以這個層次不同但另外一講我們累計了那麼多人的經驗也發現軍法存在必要是有的為什麼因為很多案件他已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位跟其他的部門會有關聯所以要有軍法那這個調查官沒有辦法介入所以我想這個分工執掌從過去本來有這種分工有執掌"},{"start":178.317,"end":203.002,"text":"但在質詢當中可能有偏差。所以我們要重新來律定完了以後,把這個職長劃分很清楚,不會有跌場架屋的問題。所以就是職長必須要清楚,並且跌場架屋嘛。那第二個問題是呢,檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡?違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為,檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是"},{"start":203.522,"end":207.325,"text":"刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查刑事性質的偵查"},{"start":224.28,"end":245.598,"text":"這個對於我們過去看待法律來說的話是很少會有這種情況的所以可以說明一下說你今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序如果是違紀調查是行政的檢察官指揮偵辦又是刑事的像這個到底是行政還是刑事我們後續法律通過之後我們應該能夠如何區分呢"},{"start":246.078,"end":271.806,"text":"我個人有經驗,簡單說明,這往往就行政大跟內部檢調就以後,差別很大在哪裡?我們先調查內部,但調查以後它不代表一個結論,所以很多事情一定要經過檢調,檢調它有它的規則檢調查了一半,你不能擅自發表你的言論,等於是為了先把它給定罪,這是很不道德的"},{"start":272.306,"end":297.743,"text":"所以我們為什麼會有這種編組,也就為了防止這些工作,這個現象產生。詳細的部分我請法律司法長再跟您做簡單的說明。所以我跟委員簡單報告,一個違紀事件,它有的時候外觀看起來是一個違紀事件,那這個違紀事件當不論是內部的法務人員也好,或是監察官也好,開始調查了之後,有的時候一查才發覺說,喔這裡面可能有涉嫌違法,"},{"start":298.143,"end":300.905,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":323.999,"end":325.28,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":339.085,"end":358.958,"text":"就是偵查當中草案第44條裏面寫道偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰那如果檢察官他沒有同意呢那檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難以及呢究竟是不是權責長官來辦理懲罰"},{"start":361.62,"end":376.351,"text":"會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定?也就是說因為過去這個所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系他是完全一條龍的他要對的對象其實也只有跟法官這邊還有他自己的自律那如果現在的"},{"start":376.391,"end":383.432,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":405.643,"end":414.33,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案案。"},{"start":435.526,"end":439.167,"text":"國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":454.452,"end":472.464,"text":"行事偵查不會影響到行政調查。行政調查我們該做的東西我們還是做。但是因為我們平常是問很多問題只要一旦進入到行政、行事調查了你們就很容易告訴我們說因為他已經進到行事調查所以行政調查的部分也不予提供"},{"start":472.924,"end":473.424,"text":"負責任職責任責任責任責任責任責任責任責任"},{"start":501.735,"end":502.552,"text":"徐巧芯等20人"}]}}}}