{"id":151628,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151628","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb32c185028c248aebfe793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b84432c9aefdf55a054d255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:25:05 - 10:34:33","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":568,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:34:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:25:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":326,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（10時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席（王委員定宇）：邱部長請。"],["邱部長國正：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，今天我們排定的議程主要就是陸海空軍懲罰法，還有另外就是軍人權益事件處理法，這兩個法案的修正草案。在這裡我們需要特別提出來的是，我們看到很多軍紀的問題層出不窮，而且現在在兩岸或者在我們區域周邊不穩定的情況之下，軍紀是非常重要的，這個部分我們同意應該要趨嚴，而且要有相當的工具手段可以作為維持紀律的條件，可是不代表我們可以任意的或者空白授權的方式，因為這樣子會衍生未來更大的問題。","我現在簡單舉出幾個，我想要請教一下，在新訂的法案裡面，對於軍人的懲罰會依照他的身分來區分，這部分過去當然在我們的軍法裡面是有的，比如說撤職、降階、記過、申誡等等的部分，可是他已經有刑法了，為什麼我們在懲罰法，因為懲罰法通常是針對行為違失的狀況之下才用懲罰法，那什麼樣的態樣會動用到要撤職或降階？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，以往我們有關軍法方面事項的規定都有，就是在執行當中有時候認知不同，所以我們這一回在修法，主要把重點放在哪個層級可以做什麼決定，把它劃分得很清楚。至於剛剛委員講的，這樣好像是不是有點重複了，你要懲罰他，他又要受刑罰之責，我記得當初好像也是講，因為你要把它給處理掉，他才能夠接受刑罰嘛，當初有這個用意。至於怎麼界定，我請法律司長再跟你做說明，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：司長，當然我相信你上一次講的時候已經有提到這部分，這部分我說什麼樣的態樣在懲罰法，因為是行為違失而已，什麼樣的態樣會重到，因為我們看到這次懲罰法裡面的懲罰過重而且過大，有一些我們贊成你趨嚴，可是不代表你可以這樣這麼嚴重，還包括你現在多加了一個可以剝奪或減少他的退除給與，這個在過去是沒有的。什麼樣的狀況，你可以適用懲罰法的條款去剝奪或減少人家的退除給與？因為如果犯了刑法，刑罰還要重到被判刑一年以上，才可以去減少他的退除給與，可是在懲罰法裡面，你居然可以剝奪或減少退除給與高達五分之一到二分之一，這是非常嚴重的，什麼樣的態樣會讓你做出這樣的懲處？"],["沈司長世偉：兩個問題我跟委員簡單的報告，委員您說我們過去在處理，軍法過去在處理刑事責任，我舉個簡單的例子，今天有一個官兵跑到了不正當場所，到裡面去吸毒，那他進出不正……"],["馬委員文君：吸毒他就犯法啦。"],["沈司長世偉：對，但是進出不正當場所，本來我們裡面有規範，不准去不正當場所，他放假期間跑到不正當場所去，他有行政責任，這個行政責任要處理，那他……"],["馬委員文君：對，懲罰法裡面現在也有嘛，你說他吸毒然後去不當的場所，現在懲罰法裡面就有，你可以記過，累積三個大過以後，他還是要被汰除嘛。"],["沈司長世偉：對，我跟委員報告，酒駕肇事……"],["馬委員文君：那個也有刑責。"],["沈司長世偉：酒駕肇事有刑事責任，但是現在的官兵酒駕肇事會汰除，現在刑事跟行政責任，兩個是分開來的……"],["馬委員文君：懲罰法裡面也有，現在有很多都直接汰除了，懲罰法現在有的，現在只要軍士官兵喝酒酒駕，不一定要肇事，你也是把他汰除了，這個在還沒有……我現在很持平的講我們同意，可是像現在增加進來的，到底什麼樣的態樣可以讓你去剝奪或減少人家的退除給與？這是一個。只要犯了刑法，他本來就不行，對不對？如果酒駕，你們之前來說，那之前沒有發現就被他退伍了，那是我們的問題，你們居然沒有發現，如果他今天犯案，我們是不可以同意他退伍的，對不對？"],["沈司長世偉：是，謝謝委員。我跟委員報告，剛剛講的是回應委員的第一個問題，第二個問題就是剝奪、減少退除給與這部分也是參考公務員的相關規範，過去一個人如果退伍之後，我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的，譬如說，今天有一個人，他在在職期間做了很多不當的行為，退伍之後兩年或是三年，你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重，甚至於有損及國家安全的時候，在行政上他必須要負的責任，我們過去……"],["馬委員文君：因為這是你們單位的問題，可是你一旦把法定下去，你為了一個、兩個，甚至你自己不察，結果你會影響到很多其他人的權益，因為有這一條法，很多時候它就會被用上了，這樣的剝奪跟減免其實是不合理的，因為它不符比例原則，因為這是懲戒法。","因為時間的關係，我想這個都還可以再討論。另外，當初洪仲丘案為什麼會特別有第十條？就是長官如果要下命令的時候，必須要有文書資料，可是你們這次把文書這部分拿掉了，主要的原因是什麼？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，就是因為執行一段時間之後，變成長官在下所有命令的時候，如果部屬稍有質疑，長官要回去寫書面，回去寫了書面然後此時後面才能夠執行，我們覺得這個跟現實狀況有點脫……"],["馬委員文君：可是你在第三十八條，如果我沒有記錯的話，在第三十八條裡面，如果你要罰站或什麼，那是可以直接處罰的。因為你當初來說明的時候是說，比如說要做這樣的懲處，比如說要罰站，你還要再寫文書資料，這個我們也覺得不妥，可是你們在第三十八條已經明定，這樣做是可以的，那你另外在第十條把文書資料拿掉，萬一長官下達給你的命令，是叫你做一些可能有違法之虞的事情，可是他又不願意寫下白紙黑字，那未來誰承擔？我覺得這個才是最大的問題。你如果在管教方面或者在軍紀的運用上面，你在第三十八條已經定了，這個跟你當初的用意其實是不一樣的，第十條才是我們現在覺得，你為什麼要突然把下達文書這樣的規定拿掉？我覺得這是有問題的。","因為從1月開始到現在，軍中已經發生13起自殺死亡案件，另外有3起是自殺未遂，當然其中有3起是發生在中科院的，而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來？還有包括有2件也是後勤單位的，都是跟一些像有相關聯性。我覺得如果我們要查察，有些可能要去認真的查察，因為中科院在2月28號有一個女性的技術員自縊身亡，那時候是連假，3月2號才開始上班，怎麼會在連假當中，在中科院院區裡面自縊？沒有上班的時間，為什麼會自殺？我現在特別提出來是有一些，如果是有不當的指示，或者有一些他們認為不妥的，那會面臨到什麼樣的問題？這個跟法都有相關。","所以就這個部分，我們還是希望可以清楚地說明白，因為洪仲丘案當時引起我們整個社會輿論的壓力，所以軍法就很快地把它拿掉，那你現在不要再製造更多的問題，我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具、手段，可是不代表可以借用這個機會，讓會衍生更多問題的法條在這裡出現，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝馬文君委員，部長、司長請回。"],["馬委員文君：我剛剛說的那部分也請查察一下，有13起自殺身亡的案件，那個……"],["主席：那個一定要查明的，不能只有表面的理由，背後的因素可能要查清楚。"],["馬委員文君：對，因為不管時間點或其他的因素，我們希望可以查察清楚，這已經不是個案，這些部分……"],["主席：如果是檢調的話，我覺得軍方基於保護袍澤，也應該要求檢調我要一個答案，你不能不清不楚，好不好？"],["馬委員文君：我們還是希望可以從法上面去做規範，所以這個法就非常重要了，當然主席也同意，我們到時候有公聽會……"],["主席：有、有、有……"],["馬委員文君：讓更多的意見可以進來。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，部長、次長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是陳永康委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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0.0}, {\"word\": \"巧\", \"start\": 554.102, \"end\": 554.122, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"芯\", \"start\": 554.122, \"end\": 554.162, \"score\": 0.498}, {\"word\": \"等\", \"start\": 554.162, \"end\": 554.182, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 554.182, \"end\": 554.202, \"score\": 0.004}, {\"word\": \"審\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 554.202, \"end\": 554.242, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 554.242, \"end\": 554.262, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 554.262, \"end\": 554.282, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 554.282, \"end\": 554.302, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,071 --> 00:00:02,894\n徐主席,麻煩請部長。來,邱部長請。歡迎,好。\n\n2\n00:00:12,406 --> 00:00:13,866\n權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n3\n00:00:35,213 --> 00:00:36,855\n在這裡我們看到很多軍紀的問題層出不窮而且現在在我們兩岸或者在我們區域周邊其實在不穩定的情況之下軍紀是非常重要的這個部分我們同意\n\n4\n00:00:50,792 --> 00:01:08,801\n應該要趨嚴而且要有相當的一個工具手段可以作為維持紀律的這樣子的一個條件可是不代表我們可以任意的或者空白授權的方式因為這樣子會衍生未來更大的問題我現在簡單舉出幾個因為像這個部分當初我想要請教一下因為在新訂的法案裡面\n\n5\n00:01:17,005 --> 00:01:19,566\n對於軍人的懲罰會依照他的身份來區分。」可是這個過去當然在我們的軍法裡面是有的比如說撤職、降階、寄過申戒等等那這個部分可是它已經有刑法了那為什麼我們在懲罰法因為懲罰法裡面通常是在行為、為師這樣子的一個狀況之下採用懲罰法那什麼樣的態樣會動到要撤職或降階\n\n6\n00:01:47,421 --> 00:02:15,207\n我跟委員報告,在以往我們有軍法方面事項的規定都有,就在執行當中有時候認知不同,所以我們這一回修法主要把重點放哪裡,哪個層級可以做什麼決定,把它也劃分得很清楚。所以剛剛委員講的,它這個好像有點重複了,你要懲罰它,它要受到刑法之責,我覺得當初好像也是這樣,因為你要把它給處理掉,它才能夠接受刑法。\n\n7\n00:02:16,007 --> 00:02:20,389\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n\n8\n00:02:37,896 --> 00:02:39,657\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n9\n00:03:07,009 --> 00:03:24,002\n判刑一年以上,他才可以去減少他的退出給予。」可是你在懲罰法裡面,你居然可以剝奪或減少高達五分之一到二分之一耶!這個是非常嚴重耶!什麼樣的態樣你會做到這樣子的一個懲處?\n\n10\n00:03:24,963 --> 00:03:51,016\n是兩個問題,我跟委員簡單的報告。委員您說,我們過去在處理,軍法過去在處理刑事責任。我舉個簡單的例子,今天有一個官兵,跑到了不正當場所,到裡面去吸毒,那他進出不正當場所,本來我們裡面有規範,不准去不正當場所。那他放假期間,他跑到不正當場所去,他有行政責任,這個行政責任要處理。\n\n11\n00:03:51,776 --> 00:03:52,336\n懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n12\n00:04:11,608 --> 00:04:15,312\n審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n\n13\n00:04:25,580 --> 00:04:29,722\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n14\n00:04:53,516 --> 00:04:56,163\n如果他今天犯案我們是不可以同意他退伍的。」\n\n15\n00:04:57,607 --> 00:05:23,509\n謝謝委員,我跟委員報告,剛講的是回應委員第一個問題,第二個問題就是剝奪、減少、退出給予。過去,這個也參考公務員的相關的規範,過去一個人如果退伍了之後,我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的。譬如說今天有一個人,他在在職期間,他做了很多不當的行為,退伍了之後兩年或是三年,你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重,甚至於有損到國家安全的時候,\n\n16\n00:05:23,789 --> 00:05:27,013\n在行政上他必須要負的責任。」因為這個是你單位的問題可是你一旦法把它定下去你為了一個兩個甚至你自己不查結果你會去影響到很多其他人的權益因為你有這條法它很多就會被用上了就是你這樣的剝奪跟\n\n17\n00:05:40,991 --> 00:05:47,937\n檢免其實是不合理的因為它不符比例原則因為你是懲戒法在這裡因為時間的關係我想這個都還可以還可以再討論另外一個就是當初洪仲秋案為什麼會特別有第10條就是你長官如果要做什麼樣的命令命令的時候他必須要有文書的資料可是你們這一次把文書這個部分拿掉了他主要的原因是什麼\n\n18\n00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,661\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n19\n00:06:26,185 --> 00:06:31,847\n懲罰法範刑事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具\n\n20\n00:06:51,914 --> 00:07:04,223\n可是他又不願意下白紙黑字那未來誰承擔我覺得這個才是最大的問題你如果在管教方面或者在軍紀的運用上面你在38條你已經定了然後這個跟你當初的用意其實是不一樣的第10條才是我們現在覺得你為什麼要突然把文書下達文書的這樣的指令把它拿掉我覺得這個是有問題的因為\n\n21\n00:07:19,373 --> 00:07:37,242\n從開始一月到現在,我們軍中已經發生了13起這樣子的自殺的案件,死亡。另外3起是自殺未遂。這裡面當然有3起是在中科院發生的,而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來,還有\n\n22\n00:07:38,322 --> 00:08:05,167\n包括有兩件也是後勤後勤單位的都是跟一些相有相關聯性我覺得如果我們要查查有些可能要去認真的查查因為中科院在2月28號有致意身亡一個女性的技術員那時候是連假2月3、3月2號才開始上班那怎麼會在連假當中你是在中科院院區裡面\n\n23\n00:08:06,767 --> 00:08:17,734\n沒有上班的時間為什麼會自殺?」我現在特別提出來是有一些如果是有不當的指示或者有一些他們認為不妥的那會面臨到什麼樣的問題這個跟法都有相關所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以清楚的說明白因為洪仲秋案當時大家引起我們\n\n24\n00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:46,251\n整個大家社會輿論的壓力所以軍法就很快的把它拿掉那你現在不要再製造更多的問題我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具手段可是不代表可以借用這個機會會衍生更多的問題的法條在這裡出現好不好謝謝馬文俊委員來鋪掌事項請回\n\n25\n00:08:51,895 --> 00:09:12,861\n我剛剛說的那個,也請查查一下,有13起的,這樣子的。不能只有表面的理由,背後的因素可能要查清楚。對,因為不管時間點或其他的因素,我們希望可以查查清楚,它已經不是個案。那如果是檢調的話,我覺得軍方基於保護袍則,也應該要求檢調,我要一個答案。\n\n26\n00:09:13,541 --> 00:09:14,302\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1071\t2894\t徐主席,麻煩請部長。來,邱部長請。歡迎,好。\n12406\t13866\t權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n35213\t36855\t在這裡我們看到很多軍紀的問題層出不窮而且現在在我們兩岸或者在我們區域周邊其實在不穩定的情況之下軍紀是非常重要的這個部分我們同意\n50792\t68801\t應該要趨嚴而且要有相當的一個工具手段可以作為維持紀律的這樣子的一個條件可是不代表我們可以任意的或者空白授權的方式因為這樣子會衍生未來更大的問題我現在簡單舉出幾個因為像這個部分當初我想要請教一下因為在新訂的法案裡面\n77005\t79566\t對於軍人的懲罰會依照他的身份來區分。」可是這個過去當然在我們的軍法裡面是有的比如說撤職、降階、寄過申戒等等那這個部分可是它已經有刑法了那為什麼我們在懲罰法因為懲罰法裡面通常是在行為、為師這樣子的一個狀況之下採用懲罰法那什麼樣的態樣會動到要撤職或降階\n107421\t135207\t我跟委員報告,在以往我們有軍法方面事項的規定都有,就在執行當中有時候認知不同,所以我們這一回修法主要把重點放哪裡,哪個層級可以做什麼決定,把它也劃分得很清楚。所以剛剛委員講的,它這個好像有點重複了,你要懲罰它,它要受到刑法之責,我覺得當初好像也是這樣,因為你要把它給處理掉,它才能夠接受刑法。\n136007\t140389\t事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n157896\t159657\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n187009\t204002\t判刑一年以上,他才可以去減少他的退出給予。」可是你在懲罰法裡面,你居然可以剝奪或減少高達五分之一到二分之一耶!這個是非常嚴重耶!什麼樣的態樣你會做到這樣子的一個懲處?\n204963\t231016\t是兩個問題,我跟委員簡單的報告。委員您說,我們過去在處理,軍法過去在處理刑事責任。我舉個簡單的例子,今天有一個官兵,跑到了不正當場所,到裡面去吸毒,那他進出不正當場所,本來我們裡面有規範,不准去不正當場所。那他放假期間,他跑到不正當場所去,他有行政責任,這個行政責任要處理。\n231776\t232336\t懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n251608\t255312\t審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n265580\t269722\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n293516\t296163\t如果他今天犯案我們是不可以同意他退伍的。」\n297607\t323509\t謝謝委員,我跟委員報告,剛講的是回應委員第一個問題,第二個問題就是剝奪、減少、退出給予。過去,這個也參考公務員的相關的規範,過去一個人如果退伍了之後,我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的。譬如說今天有一個人,他在在職期間,他做了很多不當的行為,退伍了之後兩年或是三年,你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重,甚至於有損到國家安全的時候,\n323789\t327013\t在行政上他必須要負的責任。」因為這個是你單位的問題可是你一旦法把它定下去你為了一個兩個甚至你自己不查結果你會去影響到很多其他人的權益因為你有這條法它很多就會被用上了就是你這樣的剝奪跟\n340991\t347937\t檢免其實是不合理的因為它不符比例原則因為你是懲戒法在這裡因為時間的關係我想這個都還可以還可以再討論另外一個就是當初洪仲秋案為什麼會特別有第10條就是你長官如果要做什麼樣的命令命令的時候他必須要有文書的資料可是你們這一次把文書這個部分拿掉了他主要的原因是什麼\n367680\t369661\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n386185\t391847\t懲罰法範刑事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具\n411914\t424223\t可是他又不願意下白紙黑字那未來誰承擔我覺得這個才是最大的問題你如果在管教方面或者在軍紀的運用上面你在38條你已經定了然後這個跟你當初的用意其實是不一樣的第10條才是我們現在覺得你為什麼要突然把文書下達文書的這樣的指令把它拿掉我覺得這個是有問題的因為\n439373\t457242\t從開始一月到現在,我們軍中已經發生了13起這樣子的自殺的案件,死亡。另外3起是自殺未遂。這裡面當然有3起是在中科院發生的,而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來,還有\n458322\t485167\t包括有兩件也是後勤後勤單位的都是跟一些相有相關聯性我覺得如果我們要查查有些可能要去認真的查查因為中科院在2月28號有致意身亡一個女性的技術員那時候是連假2月3、3月2號才開始上班那怎麼會在連假當中你是在中科院院區裡面\n486767\t497734\t沒有上班的時間為什麼會自殺?」我現在特別提出來是有一些如果是有不當的指示或者有一些他們認為不妥的那會面臨到什麼樣的問題這個跟法都有相關所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以清楚的說明白因為洪仲秋案當時大家引起我們\n508880\t526251\t整個大家社會輿論的壓力所以軍法就很快的把它拿掉那你現在不要再製造更多的問題我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具手段可是不代表可以借用這個機會會衍生更多的問題的法條在這裡出現好不好謝謝馬文俊委員來鋪掌事項請回\n531895\t552861\t我剛剛說的那個,也請查查一下,有13起的,這樣子的。不能只有表面的理由,背後的因素可能要查清楚。對,因為不管時間點或其他的因素,我們希望可以查查清楚,它已經不是個案。那如果是檢調的話,我覺得軍方基於保護袍則,也應該要求檢調,我要一個答案。\n553541\t554302\t審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院\n","txt":"徐主席,麻煩請部長。來,邱部長請。歡迎,好。\n權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n在這裡我們看到很多軍紀的問題層出不窮而且現在在我們兩岸或者在我們區域周邊其實在不穩定的情況之下軍紀是非常重要的這個部分我們同意\n應該要趨嚴而且要有相當的一個工具手段可以作為維持紀律的這樣子的一個條件可是不代表我們可以任意的或者空白授權的方式因為這樣子會衍生未來更大的問題我現在簡單舉出幾個因為像這個部分當初我想要請教一下因為在新訂的法案裡面\n對於軍人的懲罰會依照他的身份來區分。」可是這個過去當然在我們的軍法裡面是有的比如說撤職、降階、寄過申戒等等那這個部分可是它已經有刑法了那為什麼我們在懲罰法因為懲罰法裡面通常是在行為、為師這樣子的一個狀況之下採用懲罰法那什麼樣的態樣會動到要撤職或降階\n我跟委員報告,在以往我們有軍法方面事項的規定都有,就在執行當中有時候認知不同,所以我們這一回修法主要把重點放哪裡,哪個層級可以做什麼決定,把它也劃分得很清楚。所以剛剛委員講的,它這個好像有點重複了,你要懲罰它,它要受到刑法之責,我覺得當初好像也是這樣,因為你要把它給處理掉,它才能夠接受刑法。\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n判刑一年以上,他才可以去減少他的退出給予。」可是你在懲罰法裡面,你居然可以剝奪或減少高達五分之一到二分之一耶!這個是非常嚴重耶!什麼樣的態樣你會做到這樣子的一個懲處?\n是兩個問題,我跟委員簡單的報告。委員您說,我們過去在處理,軍法過去在處理刑事責任。我舉個簡單的例子,今天有一個官兵,跑到了不正當場所,到裡面去吸毒,那他進出不正當場所,本來我們裡面有規範,不准去不正當場所。那他放假期間,他跑到不正當場所去,他有行政責任,這個行政責任要處理。\n懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n如果他今天犯案我們是不可以同意他退伍的。」\n謝謝委員,我跟委員報告,剛講的是回應委員第一個問題,第二個問題就是剝奪、減少、退出給予。過去,這個也參考公務員的相關的規範,過去一個人如果退伍了之後,我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的。譬如說今天有一個人,他在在職期間,他做了很多不當的行為,退伍了之後兩年或是三年,你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重,甚至於有損到國家安全的時候,\n在行政上他必須要負的責任。」因為這個是你單位的問題可是你一旦法把它定下去你為了一個兩個甚至你自己不查結果你會去影響到很多其他人的權益因為你有這條法它很多就會被用上了就是你這樣的剝奪跟\n檢免其實是不合理的因為它不符比例原則因為你是懲戒法在這裡因為時間的關係我想這個都還可以還可以再討論另外一個就是當初洪仲秋案為什麼會特別有第10條就是你長官如果要做什麼樣的命令命令的時候他必須要有文書的資料可是你們這一次把文書這個部分拿掉了他主要的原因是什麼\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n懲罰法範刑事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具\n可是他又不願意下白紙黑字那未來誰承擔我覺得這個才是最大的問題你如果在管教方面或者在軍紀的運用上面你在38條你已經定了然後這個跟你當初的用意其實是不一樣的第10條才是我們現在覺得你為什麼要突然把文書下達文書的這樣的指令把它拿掉我覺得這個是有問題的因為\n從開始一月到現在,我們軍中已經發生了13起這樣子的自殺的案件,死亡。另外3起是自殺未遂。這裡面當然有3起是在中科院發生的,而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來,還有\n包括有兩件也是後勤後勤單位的都是跟一些相有相關聯性我覺得如果我們要查查有些可能要去認真的查查因為中科院在2月28號有致意身亡一個女性的技術員那時候是連假2月3、3月2號才開始上班那怎麼會在連假當中你是在中科院院區裡面\n沒有上班的時間為什麼會自殺?」我現在特別提出來是有一些如果是有不當的指示或者有一些他們認為不妥的那會面臨到什麼樣的問題這個跟法都有相關所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以清楚的說明白因為洪仲秋案當時大家引起我們\n整個大家社會輿論的壓力所以軍法就很快的把它拿掉那你現在不要再製造更多的問題我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具手段可是不代表可以借用這個機會會衍生更多的問題的法條在這裡出現好不好謝謝馬文俊委員來鋪掌事項請回\n我剛剛說的那個,也請查查一下,有13起的,這樣子的。不能只有表面的理由,背後的因素可能要查清楚。對,因為不管時間點或其他的因素,我們希望可以查查清楚,它已經不是個案。那如果是檢調的話,我覺得軍方基於保護袍則,也應該要求檢調,我要一個答案。\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.071 --> 00:02.894\n徐主席,麻煩請部長。來,邱部長請。歡迎,好。\n\n00:12.406 --> 00:13.866\n權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n00:35.213 --> 00:36.855\n在這裡我們看到很多軍紀的問題層出不窮而且現在在我們兩岸或者在我們區域周邊其實在不穩定的情況之下軍紀是非常重要的這個部分我們同意\n\n00:50.792 --> 01:08.801\n應該要趨嚴而且要有相當的一個工具手段可以作為維持紀律的這樣子的一個條件可是不代表我們可以任意的或者空白授權的方式因為這樣子會衍生未來更大的問題我現在簡單舉出幾個因為像這個部分當初我想要請教一下因為在新訂的法案裡面\n\n01:17.005 --> 01:19.566\n對於軍人的懲罰會依照他的身份來區分。」可是這個過去當然在我們的軍法裡面是有的比如說撤職、降階、寄過申戒等等那這個部分可是它已經有刑法了那為什麼我們在懲罰法因為懲罰法裡面通常是在行為、為師這樣子的一個狀況之下採用懲罰法那什麼樣的態樣會動到要撤職或降階\n\n01:47.421 --> 02:15.207\n我跟委員報告,在以往我們有軍法方面事項的規定都有,就在執行當中有時候認知不同,所以我們這一回修法主要把重點放哪裡,哪個層級可以做什麼決定,把它也劃分得很清楚。所以剛剛委員講的,它這個好像有點重複了,你要懲罰它,它要受到刑法之責,我覺得當初好像也是這樣,因為你要把它給處理掉,它才能夠接受刑法。\n\n02:16.007 --> 02:20.389\n事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。四、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n\n02:37.896 --> 02:39.657\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n03:07.009 --> 03:24.002\n判刑一年以上,他才可以去減少他的退出給予。」可是你在懲罰法裡面,你居然可以剝奪或減少高達五分之一到二分之一耶!這個是非常嚴重耶!什麼樣的態樣你會做到這樣子的一個懲處?\n\n03:24.963 --> 03:51.016\n是兩個問題,我跟委員簡單的報告。委員您說,我們過去在處理,軍法過去在處理刑事責任。我舉個簡單的例子,今天有一個官兵,跑到了不正當場所,到裡面去吸毒,那他進出不正當場所,本來我們裡面有規範,不准去不正當場所。那他放假期間,他跑到不正當場所去,他有行政責任,這個行政責任要處理。\n\n03:51.776 --> 03:52.336\n懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。\n\n04:11.608 --> 04:15.312\n審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。\n\n04:25.580 --> 04:29.722\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n04:53.516 --> 04:56.163\n如果他今天犯案我們是不可以同意他退伍的。」\n\n04:57.607 --> 05:23.509\n謝謝委員,我跟委員報告,剛講的是回應委員第一個問題,第二個問題就是剝奪、減少、退出給予。過去,這個也參考公務員的相關的規範,過去一個人如果退伍了之後,我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的。譬如說今天有一個人,他在在職期間,他做了很多不當的行為,退伍了之後兩年或是三年,你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重,甚至於有損到國家安全的時候,\n\n05:23.789 --> 05:27.013\n在行政上他必須要負的責任。」因為這個是你單位的問題可是你一旦法把它定下去你為了一個兩個甚至你自己不查結果你會去影響到很多其他人的權益因為你有這條法它很多就會被用上了就是你這樣的剝奪跟\n\n05:40.991 --> 05:47.937\n檢免其實是不合理的因為它不符比例原則因為你是懲戒法在這裡因為時間的關係我想這個都還可以還可以再討論另外一個就是當初洪仲秋案為什麼會特別有第10條就是你長官如果要做什麼樣的命令命令的時候他必須要有文書的資料可是你們這一次把文書這個部分拿掉了他主要的原因是什麼\n\n06:07.680 --> 06:09.661\n審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人\n\n06:26.185 --> 06:31.847\n懲罰法範刑事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具\n\n06:51.914 --> 07:04.223\n可是他又不願意下白紙黑字那未來誰承擔我覺得這個才是最大的問題你如果在管教方面或者在軍紀的運用上面你在38條你已經定了然後這個跟你當初的用意其實是不一樣的第10條才是我們現在覺得你為什麼要突然把文書下達文書的這樣的指令把它拿掉我覺得這個是有問題的因為\n\n07:19.373 --> 07:37.242\n從開始一月到現在,我們軍中已經發生了13起這樣子的自殺的案件,死亡。另外3起是自殺未遂。這裡面當然有3起是在中科院發生的,而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來,還有\n\n07:38.322 --> 08:05.167\n包括有兩件也是後勤後勤單位的都是跟一些相有相關聯性我覺得如果我們要查查有些可能要去認真的查查因為中科院在2月28號有致意身亡一個女性的技術員那時候是連假2月3、3月2號才開始上班那怎麼會在連假當中你是在中科院院區裡面\n\n08:06.767 --> 08:17.734\n沒有上班的時間為什麼會自殺?」我現在特別提出來是有一些如果是有不當的指示或者有一些他們認為不妥的那會面臨到什麼樣的問題這個跟法都有相關所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以清楚的說明白因為洪仲秋案當時大家引起我們\n\n08:28.880 --> 08:46.251\n整個大家社會輿論的壓力所以軍法就很快的把它拿掉那你現在不要再製造更多的問題我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具手段可是不代表可以借用這個機會會衍生更多的問題的法條在這裡出現好不好謝謝馬文俊委員來鋪掌事項請回\n\n08:51.895 --> 09:12.861\n我剛剛說的那個,也請查查一下,有13起的,這樣子的。不能只有表面的理由,背後的因素可能要查清楚。對,因為不管時間點或其他的因素,我們希望可以查查清楚,它已經不是個案。那如果是檢調的話,我覺得軍方基於保護袍則,也應該要求檢調,我要一個答案。\n\n09:13.541 --> 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