{"id":151640,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c671f92b5d032efaa8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b84432f5c28993bd16223b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:42:21 - 10:50:17","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":476,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:50:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:42:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時42分）謝謝主席。請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，辛苦了。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我首先問一下，上個禮拜包括王耀庭總經理請辭，其實我覺得他做了很多說明，部長也做很多說明，上禮拜四就不斷講到，我看你不斷地澄清，這其實不是因為缺電所造成的……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是地震後所產生的，但是你怎麼說，不聽的就是不聽，這個當然一定很挫折，對於整個公務體系，你們同仁一定很挫折。","我要講的是停電的次數從2012年的21,019次到2023年降為6,133次，其實10年來降了7成，可是我們看這個曲線是這樣，一個是往下降，但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度，從2012年所謂的缺電、停電的事情原先只談4次，到了最近暴增起來，從2021年、2022年暴增起來，超過25萬次，增加了6萬倍。我認為這也是遇到了一個最大的問題，就是專業的經理人所講的話其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽，就是他不接受，他不接受之後，不斷地去渲染，不斷去講，這個往往就會造成了整個行政體系上很大的困擾，你怎麼講、不斷地澄清，但是有些人不接受，不聽就是不聽，不斷地渲染出去。部長怎麼看待這樣的現象？"],["王部長美花：這個就是王總經理感覺非常挫折的地方，我覺得大家應該就事論事，把這樣的事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成是缺電，還在責備相關的修復時間等等，這個確實對台電人員是非常的不公平，所以我們想要讓大家知道，就這個事故的部分和大家可能有能源政策的不同應該要分得清楚，不要混為一談。"],["賴委員瑞隆：政黨間有不同的能源政策、能源思考，當然相互尊重……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是專業經理人有專業的意見，要尊重他們的專業……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果連這個部分都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的基本尊嚴以及他們說話的權利的時候，當然所有的文官體系會更加的辛苦，這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情，所以我們也再次呼籲，應該不要讓朝野的攻防滲入到、影響到整個專業文官，他們有他們專業上的判斷，要尊重他們，如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來，對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也希望部長要持續捍衛專業文官的發言以及相關的權益。"],["王部長美花：是，也謝謝委員的支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，這是大家共同的責任，如果我們不捍衛的話，我認為這個現象持續會讓臺灣往下走……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為這是大家共同的責任。","再來，2018年我在質詢沈榮津部長的時候就曾經問過，當我們提核廢料的部分，在野黨不要核廢料；當我們提深澳電廠，因為空氣污染，他們不要燃煤；當我們的三接要做的時候，他們燃氣也不要，三接也不做；當我們的綠能在發展的時候，他們用各種方式去抹黑、攻擊綠能，那電從哪裡來？沈榮津部長當時當然講的比較玩笑話，說只能插鼻孔來發電，但是事實上這是很無奈的發言！我覺得這也是另外一個問題，所有的人士都應該來思考，當你什麼都不要、什麼發電方式都不要的時候，你要電，那電從哪裡來？所以我覺得這個要很深刻地去處理。我前兩天看到王耀庭總經理的發言也是很無奈！要晶圓廠，但是不要發電廠，連變電所，你看松信變電所拖了多久，完全無法來推動，你連變電所都不給的時候，電怎麼送出去？"],["王部長美花：對，所以最近我還看到針對臺北的松湖，因為這個拖了20年沒有蓋，造成電送不進來，也講是我們缺電，這個我們已經一再澄清了，但是還是有非常多人這樣扭曲，這個絕對不是缺電的問題，這個絕對不是我們不願意供電，而是相關的阻撓超過了20年，造成這個delay，讓變電所的建設delay，就造成在那個地區，如果大用戶的話，就可能會受到限制，我想這個事實的因果關係不要弄混淆了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，所以在電力輸送出去的那個部分還是要持續地去溝通……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：去說明你不能連變電所都不要，說你要電力的穩定性，這當然就遇到更大的困難。"],["王部長美花：所以臺北市政府最近終於給我們了，所以我們趕快加緊來蓋，還要蓋臨時的，再蓋正式的，才能夠……"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括電廠也是……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：南部還在蓋第七接收站，南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著燃氣電廠的工程，南部都全力地南電北送、電力往北在送的時候，北部當然也要面對以及接受這個問題，你不可能只要電，卻不要電廠，這是不可能的事情。"],["王部長美花：是，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個部分，我希望大家都要理性地來思考，然後來討論，我們國家產業不斷在發展，電力需求上確實在增加，各種產業不斷進來，半導體產業持續在擴展，甚至於我們的經濟持續在擴展，電力上有其需求，電從哪裡來？我們加速發展綠電，但再怎麼快，它還需要一點時間，所以必然各樣的發電系統一定要同步在推動……"],["王部長美花：沒有錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部長和所有同仁，我們繼續努力，我覺得國家是大家的，臺灣是大家的，大家要同心來推，如果都用偏狹觀念的話，我高雄發的電不往中送、往北送的話，北部怎麼辦？所以我說這個要有國家一體的概念，國家才會進步，好不好？我希望部長及所有同仁要勇敢大聲地不斷把這些事實對外講，這樣才能夠讓基層的同仁更有勇氣去做他們該做的事情，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也不應該讓他們受到委屈而離開，每一個離開背後都有更多影響，是重大的影響，對國家絕對是負面的。"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。","今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法，其實問題出在於罰則過低，所以上次明揚的部分，後來用消防法罰了240萬，事實上，工廠管理輔導法確實有罰則偏低的狀況，過去只有1到5萬，這個太低了，完全無嚇阻力，所以這次我們增加到了500萬，這也是院版，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我提案的修正條文裡面還有提到，甚至於如果有遇到一些重大狀況的時候，得勒令停工，申請後再復工這樣的狀況。部長同意這樣的作法嗎？"],["王部長美花：本來對這樣情節重大的時候，我們就有這個機制。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，有這個機制，我只是把這個機制納入法裡面來，就像2022年當時中油大林廠發生的那一次嚴重事故，當然也是停工了，後來申請後再復工。事實上，重大的時候都有這樣的程序，我們只是把這個程序放到法裡面來，我也希望部長思考一下，如果放進來，給予業者更大的壓力，其實程序上也都這麼做，只要發生重大的時候，大概也一定都是停工，後來申請後再復工，我們希望明天再來討論，也希望部長能夠支持。"],["王部長美花：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了！部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來請邱志偉委員發言。","邱志偉委員發言之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 97.281, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 97.708, \"end\": 107.85, \"text\": \"不接受、不聽就是不聽,不斷地渲染出去。」部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方。那我覺得大家應該就事論事。把這樣的一個事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成說缺電。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 97.708, \"end\": 97.808, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 97.808, \"end\": 98.008, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 98.008, \"end\": 98.208, \"score\": 0.796}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 98.208, \"end\": 98.468, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 98.468, \"end\": 98.588, \"score\": 0.739}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 98.588, \"end\": 100.329, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 100.329, \"end\": 100.349, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 100.349, \"end\": 100.549, \"score\": 0.623}, {\"word\": \"斷\"}, {\"word\": \"地\", \"start\": 100.549, \"end\": 100.669, \"score\": 0.535}, {\"word\": \"渲\", \"start\": 100.669, 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466.436, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 466.436, \"end\": 466.597, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"草\", \"start\": 466.597, \"end\": 466.797, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 466.797, \"end\": 466.958, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 466.958, \"end\": 466.978, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,162 --> 00:00:07,824\n法定人數不足\n\n2\n00:00:15,168 --> 00:00:36,795\n副部長辛苦了副部長我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王雅婷總經理請辭了其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明部長也做了很多的說明上禮拜四就不斷講到啦我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的因為地震後所產生的這個但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦這個\n\n3\n00:00:38,536 --> 00:01:00,859\n當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年\n\n4\n00:01:02,060 --> 00:01:30,120\n只談所謂的停電的事情談四次,到了最近暴增起來,從2021年、2022年暴增起來,到了二十五萬,超過二十五萬次,增加了六萬倍了。我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題,就是說專業的經理人所講的話,專業的講的話,其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽,就是他不接受,他不接受之後不斷的去渲染,不斷去講自己,所以這個往往就會造成了整個\n\n5\n00:01:30,921 --> 00:01:37,281\n行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清但是有些人\n\n6\n00:01:37,708 --> 00:01:47,850\n不接受、不聽就是不聽,不斷地渲染出去。」部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方。那我覺得大家應該就事論事。把這樣的一個事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成說缺電。\n\n7\n00:02:02,213 --> 00:02:04,876\n責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。\n\n8\n00:02:23,715 --> 00:02:52,550\n政黨經由不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個那如果連這個部分都都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個\n\n9\n00:02:52,790 --> 00:03:00,580\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的判斷,尊重他們的判斷。如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來,對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。」\n\n10\n00:03:09,431 --> 00:03:12,214\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、\n\n11\n00:03:25,246 --> 00:03:27,667\n當我們的綠能在發燃的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能\n\n12\n00:03:44,511 --> 00:03:49,297\n立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算\n\n13\n00:04:02,774 --> 00:04:18,149\n所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動\n\n14\n00:04:18,809 --> 00:04:19,650\n二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n\n15\n00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:42,062\n把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了\n\n16\n00:05:00,387 --> 00:05:11,634\n所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連便利的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以臺北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的他才能夠\n\n17\n00:05:19,539 --> 00:05:37,655\n電廠也是嘛吼,南部還在蓋第七接收站,南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著這個燃氣電廠的工程,那南部都全力的當南電北送往北再送的時候,那北部當然也要面對跟接受這個問題,你不可能只要電而卻不要電廠,這是不可能的事情嗎?\n\n18\n00:05:37,875 --> 00:05:38,695\n二、審查．一、處理或審查\n\n19\n00:06:03,621 --> 00:06:27,060\n所以我是覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整個國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講\n\n20\n00:06:27,941 --> 00:06:30,923\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n\n21\n00:06:44,452 --> 00:07:05,006\n謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於法則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了兩百四十萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個一到五位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版對不對\n\n22\n00:07:05,646 --> 00:07:10,308\n一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案。\n\n23\n00:07:17,603 --> 00:07:43,553\n本來對這樣勤解重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做\n\n24\n00:07:44,793 --> 00:07:46,978\n三十七條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7162\t7824\t法定人數不足\n15168\t36795\t副部長辛苦了 副部長我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王雅婷總經理請辭了其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明部長也做了很多的說明上禮拜四就不斷講到啦我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的因為地震後所產生的這個但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦這個\n38536\t60859\t當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年\n62060\t90120\t只談所謂的停電的事情談四次,到了最近暴增起來,從2021年、2022年暴增起來,到了二十五萬,超過二十五萬次,增加了六萬倍了。我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題,就是說專業的經理人所講的話,專業的講的話,其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽,就是他不接受,他不接受之後不斷的去渲染,不斷去講自己,所以這個往往就會造成了整個\n90921\t97281\t行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清但是有些人\n97708\t107850\t不接受、不聽就是不聽,不斷地渲染出去。」部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方。那我覺得大家應該就事論事。把這樣的一個事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成說缺電。\n122213\t124876\t責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。\n143715\t172550\t政黨經由不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個那如果連這個部分都都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個\n172790\t180580\t二、審查：一、處理或審查一、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的判斷,尊重他們的判斷。如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來,對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。」\n189431\t192214\t二、審查：一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、\n205246\t207667\t當我們的綠能在發燃的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能\n224511\t229297\t立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算\n242774\t258149\t所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動\n258809\t259650\t二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n276700\t282062\t把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了\n300387\t311634\t所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連便利的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以臺北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的他才能夠\n319539\t337655\t電廠也是嘛吼,南部還在蓋第七接收站,南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著這個燃氣電廠的工程,那南部都全力的當南電北送往北再送的時候,那北部當然也要面對跟接受這個問題,你不可能只要電而卻不要電廠,這是不可能的事情嗎?\n337875\t338695\t二、審查．一、處理或審查\n363621\t387060\t所以我是覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整個國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講\n387941\t390923\t二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n404452\t425006\t謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於法則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了兩百四十萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個一到五位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版對不對\n425646\t430308\t一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案。\n437603\t463553\t本來對這樣勤解重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做\n464793\t466978\t三十七條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n","txt":"法定人數不足\n副部長辛苦了 副部長我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王雅婷總經理請辭了其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明部長也做了很多的說明上禮拜四就不斷講到啦我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的因為地震後所產生的這個但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦這個\n當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年\n只談所謂的停電的事情談四次,到了最近暴增起來,從2021年、2022年暴增起來,到了二十五萬,超過二十五萬次,增加了六萬倍了。我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題,就是說專業的經理人所講的話,專業的講的話,其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽,就是他不接受,他不接受之後不斷的去渲染,不斷去講自己,所以這個往往就會造成了整個\n行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清但是有些人\n不接受、不聽就是不聽,不斷地渲染出去。」部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方。那我覺得大家應該就事論事。把這樣的一個事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成說缺電。\n責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。\n政黨經由不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個那如果連這個部分都都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的判斷,尊重他們的判斷。如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來,對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。」\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、\n當我們的綠能在發燃的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能\n立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算\n所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動\n二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了\n所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連便利的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以臺北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的他才能夠\n電廠也是嘛吼,南部還在蓋第七接收站,南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著這個燃氣電廠的工程,那南部都全力的當南電北送往北再送的時候,那北部當然也要面對跟接受這個問題,你不可能只要電而卻不要電廠,這是不可能的事情嗎?\n二、審查．一、處理或審查\n所以我是覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整個國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於法則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了兩百四十萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個一到五位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版對不對\n一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案。\n本來對這樣勤解重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做\n三十七條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.162 --> 00:07.824\n法定人數不足\n\n00:15.168 --> 00:36.795\n副部長辛苦了副部長我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王雅婷總經理請辭了其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明部長也做了很多的說明上禮拜四就不斷講到啦我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的因為地震後所產生的這個但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦這個\n\n00:38.536 --> 01:00.859\n當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年\n\n01:02.060 --> 01:30.120\n只談所謂的停電的事情談四次,到了最近暴增起來,從2021年、2022年暴增起來,到了二十五萬,超過二十五萬次,增加了六萬倍了。我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題,就是說專業的經理人所講的話,專業的講的話,其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽,就是他不接受,他不接受之後不斷的去渲染,不斷去講自己,所以這個往往就會造成了整個\n\n01:30.921 --> 01:37.281\n行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清但是有些人\n\n01:37.708 --> 01:47.850\n不接受、不聽就是不聽,不斷地渲染出去。」部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方。那我覺得大家應該就事論事。把這樣的一個事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成說缺電。\n\n02:02.213 --> 02:04.876\n責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。\n\n02:23.715 --> 02:52.550\n政黨經由不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個那如果連這個部分都都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個\n\n02:52.790 --> 03:00.580\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的判斷,尊重他們的判斷。如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來,對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。」\n\n03:09.431 --> 03:12.214\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、\n\n03:25.246 --> 03:27.667\n當我們的綠能在發燃的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能\n\n03:44.511 --> 03:49.297\n立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算\n\n04:02.774 --> 04:18.149\n所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動\n\n04:18.809 --> 04:19.650\n二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n\n04:36.700 --> 04:42.062\n把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了\n\n05:00.387 --> 05:11.634\n所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連便利的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以臺北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的他才能夠\n\n05:19.539 --> 05:37.655\n電廠也是嘛吼,南部還在蓋第七接收站,南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著這個燃氣電廠的工程,那南部都全力的當南電北送往北再送的時候,那北部當然也要面對跟接受這個問題,你不可能只要電而卻不要電廠,這是不可能的事情嗎?\n\n05:37.875 --> 05:38.695\n二、審查．一、處理或審查\n\n06:03.621 --> 06:27.060\n所以我是覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整個國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講\n\n06:27.941 --> 06:30.923\n二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n\n06:44.452 --> 07:05.006\n謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於法則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了兩百四十萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個一到五位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版對不對\n\n07:05.646 --> 07:10.308\n一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案。\n\n07:17.603 --> 07:43.553\n本來對這樣勤解重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做\n\n07:44.793 --> 07:46.978\n三十七條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.162,"end":7.824,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15.168,"end":36.795,"text":"副部長辛苦了 副部長我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王雅婷總經理請辭了其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明部長也做了很多的說明上禮拜四就不斷講到啦我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的因為地震後所產生的這個但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦這個"},{"start":38.536,"end":60.859,"text":"當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年"},{"start":62.06,"end":90.12,"text":"只談所謂的停電的事情談四次,到了最近暴增起來,從2021年、2022年暴增起來,到了二十五萬,超過二十五萬次,增加了六萬倍了。我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題,就是說專業的經理人所講的話,專業的講的話,其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽,就是他不接受,他不接受之後不斷的去渲染,不斷去講自己,所以這個往往就會造成了整個"},{"start":90.921,"end":97.281,"text":"行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清但是有些人"},{"start":97.708,"end":107.85,"text":"不接受、不聽就是不聽,不斷地渲染出去。」部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方。那我覺得大家應該就事論事。把這樣的一個事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成說缺電。"},{"start":122.213,"end":124.876,"text":"責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。"},{"start":143.715,"end":172.55,"text":"政黨經由不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個那如果連這個部分都都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個"},{"start":172.79,"end":180.58,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的判斷,尊重他們的判斷。如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來,對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。」"},{"start":189.431,"end":192.214,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、"},{"start":205.246,"end":207.667,"text":"當我們的綠能在發燃的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能"},{"start":224.511,"end":229.297,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":242.774,"end":258.149,"text":"所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動"},{"start":258.809,"end":259.65,"text":"二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":276.7,"end":282.062,"text":"把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了"},{"start":300.387,"end":311.634,"text":"所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連便利的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以臺北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的他才能夠"},{"start":319.539,"end":337.655,"text":"電廠也是嘛吼,南部還在蓋第七接收站,南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著這個燃氣電廠的工程,那南部都全力的當南電北送往北再送的時候,那北部當然也要面對跟接受這個問題,你不可能只要電而卻不要電廠,這是不可能的事情嗎?"},{"start":337.875,"end":338.695,"text":"二、審查．一、處理或審查"},{"start":363.621,"end":387.06,"text":"所以我是覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整個國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講"},{"start":387.941,"end":390.923,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":404.452,"end":425.006,"text":"謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於法則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了兩百四十萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個一到五位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版對不對"},{"start":425.646,"end":430.308,"text":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案。"},{"start":437.603,"end":463.553,"text":"本來對這樣勤解重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做"},{"start":464.793,"end":466.978,"text":"三十七條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"}]}}}}