{"id":151662,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151662","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb36f21223a2ee501c9b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b8443296fa539d5614b54a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:01:49 - 11:24:38","影片長度":"00:22:49","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":1369,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:24:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:01:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時1分）主席、各位，大家午安。是不是還是請薛部長？"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，有關兒少性剝削防制條例，其實去年1月就修正了，現在回過頭才發現支付對價觀覽這個犯罪樣態根本沒有放進去，大家都一直講說從重、刑度要提多高等等，其實問題重重，除了支付對價觀覽沒有放進去以外，像是主席剛剛講的，連開刀房的病人都被偷拍。所以我們現在回過頭看，台積電被偷拍、開刀房裡面的病人被偷拍，而我們現在非常高度關注，是因為性影像的拍攝、製造、偷拍等等，很多這種對人權侵犯、對人身侵犯來講程度相當高的樣態其實都是以販賣盈利、散播為目的，他們到時候承認的時候就說這是我自己想要拍下來留念、自己觀看的，其實我們都覺得背後很不單純。所以由此可知，以性犯罪的樣態來製作性影像的網頁、網站或盈利行為應該非常嚴重，就像我上一次說的，美國就有一個調查，美國兒童性剝削通報系統CyberTipline的統計發現，從2019年到2022年，美方偵測兒少性剝削影像來自臺灣IP的通報數量成長2.3倍，從3萬到7萬，凸顯了性剝削影像近年在臺灣的氾濫程度。而現在我們要講的不只是未成年兒少的影像，包括成年人的性犯罪影像都是以這類樣態居多，所以我們真的想知道臺灣到底是怎麼了？我上次也講說徒法不足以自行，你們今天大家都講了很多，但我要講，大家都把責任丟到立法院來，立委，你要不要加重其刑？立法院，你要不要加重其刑？徒法，只有加重徒刑沒用啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，這要有方法。"],["林委員淑芬：這不只是叫立法院提高刑度就好，修法可以嚇阻這個犯罪嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：要有一些技術方面的支援才有可能。"],["林委員淑芬：技術方面的支援，你講的意思好像是在講警政署，但因為今天只有警政委員列席而已，所以我也就算了，跟他們在這裡講也沒用，現在一個警政委員等著隨時要外派出去當官，當地方警政單位的局長而已，所以我就不講了。但你說要有技術上的支援，去年11月8號婦女救援基金會在婦女和性別議題的政策研討論壇中說，性影像聯防的四個法修訂後的建議，不是只有法律修訂，他說警政單位的偵辦人員、相關經費、器材不足，偵辦困難且耗時間，沒有跨縣市的專責人力，多項都是兼辦，而且沒有專責人力，都是兼辦以外，連專責單位也沒有，婦幼隊的偵辦經費也很少，且專業的網路人員經驗傳承也沒有辦法，因為很多第一線承辦人員對法律的認識和適用有待加強等等，包括網路偵查境外網路要下架，對散布匿名行為人要起訴定罪，這些在技術上都很難。除此之外，在2021年台灣公共行政與公共事務系所聯合會年會暨國際學術研討會的議程裡面，他們討論到兒童及少年性剝削防制機制的現況、困境與對策裡面，也一再地講辦案的專業能力仍有不足的地方，且警察機關跟網路業者的協調合作機制未完善化，並且網路兒少遭受性剝削犯罪的犯案手段推陳出新、不易防制，違反兒少性剝削防制條例的量刑低、起訴率也低。","我現在要講說到底有多低，到底量刑有多低、起訴率有多低，徒法不足以自行嘛，這個修法到底有沒有用？因為去年才大修過，我們就比較一下，去年1月通過，2月15號施行，第三十九條增加連無故持有都要從行政罰變成刑罰；第三十六條，使兒童或少年被拍攝、自拍或製造性影像的部分提高了刑責，從3年到7年變成3年到10年。現在看第一個表格，我現在不懂，因為你們上個禮拜來報告，衛福部統計拍攝、製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品，2022年有1,971件，2023年有2,903件，這是你們上個禮拜提供的統計資料，但是到法務部那裡為什麼只有692件跟767件？違反第三十六條的，到地方法院一審判決的件數是590件跟688件，我現在不懂，你們統計數據，以2023年為例，明明就是拍攝、製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品，就是違反兒少性剝削條例第三十六條的部分，你們統計是2,900件，為什麼到法務部地檢署偵查終結的人數是767件？起訴了498件，767件裡面起訴498件，為什麼落差這麼大？"],["薛部長瑞元：衛福部的統計是有來做申訴的，還有通報的案件數。"],["林委員淑芬：請問這是告訴乃論罪嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：兒少不是。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，那這些來跟你們做申訴的，你們有沒有移送法辦的義務？"],["薛部長瑞元：有啊。"],["林委員淑芬：請問地檢署是誰來？"],["薛部長瑞元：法務部。"],["林委員淑芬：是檢察司來，好，郭司長，2,900件到法務部地檢署辦理偵查終結人數剩下767人，為什麼？3,000件剩下767人。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，因為地檢署收案是以被告的人數做計算，我們不曉得衛福部這邊過來的統計基準……你們是以被害人為基準是不是？"],["林委員淑芬：他也是人數啊！"],["郭司長永發：我們是以被告人數。"],["林委員淑芬：這個又不是告訴乃論罪，這是公訴罪，每一個人數、每一個個案，當然有可能是一件數個人，但是到最後怎麼會大幅縮水？也不至於大幅縮水，所以如果照你所說，那是每一個人都拍了好多個喔！每一個人拍了5個、4個喔，每一個都是犯罪行為，是累犯，而且不斷地在重複犯罪。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，一個被告可能有很多的被害人，所以在統計上面，從衛福部過來的可能是以被害人來計算……"],["林委員淑芬：所以這些人都很可惡。好，沒關係，請司法院副廳長，如你所說，每一件的受害人都很多的話，含無罪的，到地方法院一審裁判件數767人，到最後是688件，含無罪的喔，這數量也少了，767變成688，可能的原因是什麼？"],["李副廳長昆霖：委員好，跟委員報告，我們法院裁判依照兒少性剝削防制條例第三十六條的統計數字確實是688沒有錯。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啦，我在問你為什麼從767變成688、692變成590，都少了很多耶。"],["李副廳長昆霖：是。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊，為什麼？這裡面還含無罪的，每個案件怎麼一級一級上去，人數也少了，這是為什麼啊？我現在問你們。"],["李副廳長昆霖：我跟委員報告，我的瞭解是，我們這邊的688是指裁判的件數，就是檢察官起訴之後經過法院裁判的件數是688。"],["林委員淑芬：那我知道了，OK，司法院你先回去。","現在我要問法務部關於下一張表格，為什麼我會講這個呢？可以看得出來2019年到2023年違反兒少性剝削條例的案件數不斷地增加，108年是215件、到112年是767件，可是在這種案件逐年增加的狀況下，我們非常不瞭解的是起訴率，從2019年76.3的起訴率到現在逐年下降到64.9，逐年下降喔！76.3變成67.3、變成63.4、變成62.3，最後變成64.9；緩起訴的比例其實逐年上升，從108年2.3%緩起訴，到現在是4.0；不起訴的比例也是逐年攀升，10.2的不起訴到18.5。難道是警察辦案每一件都這麼多瑕疵嗎？為什麼會這樣子？這個數據和人民的情感、和社會的觀感、和我們輿論的觀察差很大！我發現我們移送了這麼多，然後起訴率在下降，緩起訴率和不起訴率在增加，這是為什麼？你也解釋給我聽看看，跟我們人民的觀感是相反的。"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，檢察官不管是起訴、不起訴、緩起訴，其實都是個案上的證據判斷，這個部分我們必須……"],["林委員淑芬：那我可不這麼認為呢？我舉黃子佼的案例來看，他無故持有這些東西是緩起訴，你們的理由是說：他是初犯，而且避免受害女子在審判過程要受到二度傷害，決定給予緩起訴而不是輕縱；但是因為社會輿論之後你們現在才要求，以未完備偵查為由，說要再續行偵查。我的意思是說，我們去年修法後，持有就要課以刑責了，可是沒有用！他持有7部耶，去年修法1月就修好了，修法的目的就是要針對持有的人一定要課以刑責，這個是我們社會的共識、立法院的共識而修好的法，你們臺北地檢署讓立法院的修法、讓社會的輿論淪為笑話！我們把它從行政罰變成刑罰，結果你辦這個高度社會矚目的案件，而且是一個持有7部兒少性剝削影像的人，你將他變成緩起訴。所以你說為什麼不起訴率提高、緩起訴率也提高，比例還上升！你看地檢署辦理違反兒少法第三十九條的無故持有，因為是去年才修法嘛，所以你來看，38人起訴6人、緩起訴8人、不起訴23人！這個是法律修得不好、還是警察機關執法過程沒有專業能力、還是你們地檢署在辦案的時候輕輕放下，連黃子佼這種高度社會矚目、持有7部，而且剛修法完，高度社會矚目的你們都還可以緩起訴，然後硬要跟社會對幹，這到底是什麼原因啊？"],["郭司長永發：還是跟委員說明，就檢察官認定上，緩起訴還是罪嫌重大，在檢察官心裡他還是一個犯罪行為，至於個案到底……"],["林委員淑芬：我們當然知道啦。"],["郭司長永發：是……"],["林委員淑芬：緩起訴加不起訴的31件，全部38件，起訴才6件，你認為緩起訴還是犯罪樣態嘛，起訴加緩起訴、6加8還是小於不起訴的23！"],["郭司長永發：但是跟委員報告，因為個案上都是以證據來認定他有無……"],["林委員淑芬：所以我問你是警察機關……大家都講修法、從重量刑啊、行政罰改成刑罰啊！現在還要加入付費對價觀覽，這種也要入刑罰啊！可是只有這個法有辦法……法律也訂了、也修了、也增訂了，所以我才問你啊，是你們地檢署的問題、還是警察機關有問題，連辦案的專業能力都沒有啊？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，其實我們可以提升偵搜的量能，這中間當然還涉及到一些科技偵查方法，因為沒有這個工具，法案還在行政院研議中，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：第三十九條是無故持有，一定是查到你的電腦裡面已經有影像了，什麼偵搜工具！這種東西才會移送，結果你們還是給他不起訴，一定是電腦裡面或是家裡面搜到，不管是DVD或是主機裡面下載的，一定是有了才會叫無故持有，結果到你們那裡是緩起訴加不起訴。"],["主席：林委員，時間的關係，是不是等一下再請司長跟你做個說明？"],["林委員淑芬：主席，我再講一下。","這部分你講不清楚啦，我跟你說，這才是真正的問題！警察辦案的能力不足，然後地檢署裡面對這種事情的看法認為可以緩起訴的就緩起訴，連黃子佼這種高度社會矚目、違反我們社會共識的你們也敢緩起訴，所以這個才是大問題。","我再問一下……"],["主席：林委員，因為時間的關係。"],["林委員淑芬：我們柯總召的臉書剛剛有一篇叫死刑是否違憲，裡面講到：立法者或造法者都應該要自我省思，法律應該反映國民的正當法律感情，不可以無視於民意，更不應該以精英思維專斷主張，以精英式的獨斷決定凌駕於民意共識之上，不僅會對社會造成衝擊與割裂，更不利於我國的民主發展。所以立法者本於立法職權，修法反映國民正當的法律感情、回應民意，但從警察、從地檢署、到司法院法官，現在動輒以刑法第五十九條，司法院來看一下……"],["主席：林委員，因為等一下還要處理臨時提案，好不好？"],["林委員淑芬：好，我知道，主席，這個案子難道不能夠稍微再談一下嗎？"],["主席：非常重要，我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：這個案子有被討論過嗎？我們在這裡第一次討論耶！我們現在講說，地方法院刑事一審訴訟被告違反性剝削第三十六條裁判結果，就是從地檢署裡面已經起訴的送進去法院，你自己看，我們提高刑責，大家說修法從重懲罰啦！三年到七年改成三年到十年，這不就是第三十六條的修法嗎？結果依司法院提供給我們的裁判數據來看，從行政罰修法以來，先看第三十九條好了，第三十九條的裁判件數是0，當然理由很多啦……"],["主席：林委員，等一下還要處理臨時提案，是不是你……"],["林委員淑芬：起訴了6件，結果裁判數字是0，沒有判決的結果，這是第三十九條。但是我們現在要看第三十六條，第三十六條起訴了，你好不容易起訴了然後送到地方法院去，地方法院的法官動輒就說其情可憫，要動用刑法第五十九條減輕刑度，108年254件中動用了第五十九條減刑的有46件；到去年671件，大家都知道案件數逐年成長，然後到去年動用減刑條款的比例超過三分之一，就是274件，不斷的減刑，大家修法要從重，結果在法院的判刑是每年遞增的在使用減刑條款，從2019年的18%上升到隔年是28%的減刑，再到110年是32%的減刑，到111年對這種利用兒少製造影片的行為大家講要加重其刑的時候，還是不斷的減刑，到去年減刑的比例高達41%。"],["主席：委員，我們是不是到逐條的時候再來討論？"],["林委員淑芬：這跟逐條有什麼相關？我講的就是徒法不足以自行嘛！"],["主席：委員，因為後面還要……"],["林委員淑芬：我們立法院今天在這裡從重、從嚴，逐條在加嚴，可是司法院、地檢署到警政單位這種辦案的態度，這樣不斷地減刑然後緩起訴、不起訴，再這樣下去的話，會傷害國民情感，然後讓立法院在這裡的修法淪為笑話。好啦！我就是說了這些，部長，你最後有什麼可說的？你覺得呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然委員指教的是對的……"],["林委員淑芬：主席一直叫我下臺，一直趕我，所以我要你講最後一句話。"],["主席：林委員，因為你已經超過十幾分鐘了。"],["林委員淑芬：主席，我們開會都很早就結束了，我們可以開會開到下午5點，以前的衛環委員會開會都開到下午5點哪！"],["主席：那是不是委員可以等到……"],["林委員淑芬：我可以等第二輪發言，我現在可以結束，但是我要登記第二輪發言，還是讓部長講完就好了！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員講的是有道理的，這就是牽涉到我們的整個司法制度……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講的有沒有道理？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是有道理的。"],["林委員淑芬：是不是問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：也是一個問題之所在，但是背後真正的原因可能還要再更深入的去分析、瞭解。"],["林委員淑芬：要分析原因，那大家在這裡雙手一攤、束手無策，結果犯罪樣態、犯罪的案件數、犯罪的量不斷的增加，未成年的受害者一直增加，成年的也一直增加，然後造成臺灣的國際形象受損，而且受害的人民越來越多。"],["薛部長瑞元：比方說，剛剛委員所提到用刑法第五十九條來減刑的比例之所以會上升……"],["林委員淑芬：是不是我們立法立得不合？我們法律立得有問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這是一定有它的原因在啦！這還是需要再進一步去……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！我們立法要有構成要件明確性、罪責相當性、衡平性，我們的立法有問題，才讓法官這樣動輒就啟動第五十九條的減刑條款嗎？是我們立法院的立法有問題嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是認為說……"],["林委員淑芬：否則法官為什麼對4成的人都要減刑呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不是立法有問題。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝，回去討論一下啦！"],["主席：好，謝謝林淑芬委員的發言。","我現在作以下的宣告，在楊瓊瓔委員質詢結束後處理臨時提案。","現在請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 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\"國\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 1368.661, \"end\": 1368.681, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 1368.681, \"end\": 1368.721, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"傳\"}, {\"word\": \"播\", \"start\": 1368.721, \"end\": 1368.741, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1368.741, \"end\": 1368.862, \"score\": 0.862}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"社\", \"start\": 1368.862, \"end\": 1368.882, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"會\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,961 --> 00:00:12,085\n主席各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們這個薛部長請薛部長委員好\n\n2\n00:00:19,899 --> 00:00:32,025\n部長,我們這個兒少性剝削的這個防治條例其實現在大家去年1月就修好了現在才回過頭才發現說支付關攬、支付對價關攬這個犯罪樣態根本沒有放進去\n\n3\n00:00:37,487 --> 00:00:39,147\n全體委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、\n\n4\n00:00:59,852 --> 00:01:21,625\n開刀房裡面的病人被偷拍所以我們現在很高度的關注是因為性影像的拍攝、製造、偷拍等等很多這種對人權侵犯、對人身侵犯程度來講相當高的這種樣態其實都是以販賣盈利散播為目的\n\n5\n00:01:22,765 --> 00:01:48,826\n所以他們動輒到時候承認的時候說這是我自己想要拍下來留念自己觀看其實我們都開始覺得說背後很不單純所以由此可知以性犯罪的樣態來製作這個性影像的網頁網站或盈利行為應該非常嚴重就像我上一次就說的美國就有一個調查\n\n6\n00:01:49,346 --> 00:01:54,670\n美國這個兒童性剝削通報系統的統計發現從2019到2022美方偵測兒少性剝削影像來自臺灣IP的通報數量成長2.3倍從3萬到7萬所以凸顯了性剝削影像近年在臺灣的氾濫程度而現在我們要講的是不只是未成年兒少的影像\n\n7\n00:02:15,003 --> 00:02:43,405\n包括成年人的這個性犯罪影像都是以這類的樣態為居多所以我們真的想台灣到底是怎麼了怎麼了那我也上次也講說土法不足以自刑你們今天大家都講很多但我為什麼要講大家都把責任丟到立法院來立委你要不要加重其刑立法院你要不要加重其刑土法只有加重土刑\n\n8\n00:02:44,366 --> 00:03:12,264\n無效啊!這就不是跟立法院說的叫行動會寫得高的我現在為什麼講說修法可以阻嚇這個犯罪嗎?要有一些技術方面的資源才有可能啦技術方面的資源你講的意思好像是講警政署但因為今天警政委員而已所以我也就我就算了跟他們講在這裡也無效現在\n\n9\n00:03:14,165 --> 00:03:20,449\n一個警政委員隨時等著要外派出去當官的而已,當地方警政單位的局長而已,所以我就不講了,但是我們講說你說要技術上的資源,\n\n10\n00:03:29,355 --> 00:03:45,186\n去年11月8日婦女救援基金會在《婦女和性別議題的政策研討論壇》當中就說性影像聯防的四個法修訂後的建議不是只有法律修訂啊他在講偵辦人員就是警政單位的偵辦人員相關經費器材不足偵辦困難且耗時間沒有跨縣市的專責人力都是多項都是監辦而且沒有專責人力都是這個監辦以外連專責單位也沒有\n\n11\n00:03:59,455 --> 00:04:25,821\n副、右、對的偵辦經費也很少然後專業的網路人員經驗傳承也沒有辦法因為這個很多第一線的承辦人員他們對法律的認識和適用有待加強等等啦包括網路偵查這個境外的網路要下架對散佈匿名行為的人要起訴定罪這個在技術上都很難以外\n\n12\n00:04:27,101 --> 00:04:51,442\n在2021年臺灣公共行政和公共事務所聯合會暨國際學術研導會的議程裏面他們討論到兒童及少年性剝削防治機制的現況與困境與對策裏面也一再的講專業辦案的專業能力仍有不足的地方而且警察機關跟網路業者的協調合作機制未完善化而且\n\n13\n00:04:52,924 --> 00:05:03,275\n網路兒少遭受性剝削犯罪的犯案手段推陳出新不義防治違反兒少性剝削防治條例的量刑低起訴也低\n\n14\n00:05:07,363 --> 00:05:34,415\n那我現在在講說到底有多低?到底量刑有多低?起訴率到底有多低?圖法不足以自行,你這個修法到底有沒有用?從去年才大修過,我們就比較一下去年1月通過,2月15號施行新的,就是增加了39條,連無故持有都要從行政法變成刑法\n\n15\n00:05:35,555 --> 00:05:51,955\n那36條的使兒童或少年被拍攝自拍或製造性影像這個提高的行程從3年到7年變成3年到10年嗎那我現在看第一個表格我現在不懂因為你們上個禮拜來報告\n\n16\n00:05:54,421 --> 00:06:02,506\n衛福部統計拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品,2022年1971件,2023年2903件。」這是你們統計資料嗎?上個禮拜提供的。法務部那裡為什麼只有692件跟767件?\n\n17\n00:06:19,609 --> 00:06:41,771\n違反36條的到地方法院一審判決的件數590跟688我現在不懂你們統計數據以2023年為例明明就是拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品就違反兒少剝削條例的第36條的\n\n18\n00:06:43,473 --> 00:06:54,118\n你們統計是2900件為什麼到法務部地檢署偵查終結的人數是767件起訴了498767裡面起訴498為什麼落差這麼大衛福部的統計是有來做申訴通報的\n\n19\n00:07:11,104 --> 00:07:30,209\n案件室。」那請問這個是告訴來論罪嗎?兒少不是。對啊。那為什麼來這裡做申訴?你們有沒有這個移送法辦的義務?有啊。有啊。來,檢查單,地檢署。地檢署誰來?法務部啊。哦,檢查師來。好,來。市長。郭市長。\n\n20\n00:07:34,700 --> 00:07:45,384\n兩千九百件到法務部地檢署辦理偵查終結人數剩下七百六十七人\n\n21\n00:07:55,780 --> 00:08:24,526\n跟委員報告因為我們是地檢署說案是以被告的人數做計算我們不曉得衛福部這邊過來的是一個統計基準你們是用被害人他也是人數啊我們是被告人數被告這個又不是告訴哪一論罪這公訴罪每一件每一個人數每一個個案當然會有可能是一件數個人啦但是但是\n\n22\n00:08:25,734 --> 00:08:53,953\n到最後怎麼會大幅縮水也不至於大幅縮水縮水所以如果照你所說是每一個人都拍了好多個喔每一個人拍了五個四個喔每一個都是犯罪行為是累犯而且不斷的在重重複犯罪的根委員報告一個被告他可能有很多的一個被害人所以在統計上面衛務部過來所以這些人都很可惡喔好來沒關係那法院來\n\n23\n00:08:55,222 --> 00:09:12,158\n今天是司法院副庭長每個人如你所說受害人都很多人的話到地方法院一審裁判件數含無罪的含無罪的767人到最後是688件\n\n24\n00:09:21,581 --> 00:09:45,407\n含無罪的這數量也少了767變成688這可能原因是什麼?是委員好跟委員報告我們法院裁判依照這個兒少腺波穴防治條例36條我們的統計數字是確實是688沒有錯我知道啦我在問你說為什麼從767變成688692變成590\n\n25\n00:09:52,383 --> 00:10:17,599\n都少了很多欸對阿為什麼因為這裡面還含無罪的也在裡面每個案件怎麼到一集一集上去人數也少了這為什麼阿我現在在問你們阿我跟委員報告我的了解是我們這邊的688是指裁判的件數\n\n26\n00:10:19,541 --> 00:10:34,069\n就是說我們說檢察官起訴之後法院經過法院裁判的件數是688那我知道了OK那司法院你先回去了現在我要問法務部下一張這個表格為什麼我講這個呢\n\n27\n00:10:35,885 --> 00:11:02,174\n可以看得出來2019年到2023年違反兒少性剝削條例的案件數是不斷的增加108年是215件到112年是767件可是在這種案件逐年增加裡面我們非常不了解的是起訴率從2019年的76.3的起訴率到現在下降逐年下降到64.9\n\n28\n00:11:03,695 --> 00:11:08,117\n主年下降,76.3變成67.3變成63.4變成62.3最後變成64.9還起訴的比例其實主年上升從108年的2.3%的還起訴到現在是4.0不起訴的比例也是主年在攀升10.2的不起訴到18.5\n\n29\n00:11:31,543 --> 00:11:33,808\n難道是警察辦案每一件都瑕疵這麼多嗎?為什麼這樣子?這個數據和人民的情感和社會的觀感和我們輿論的觀察\n\n30\n00:11:42,540 --> 00:12:09,869\n差很大我發現我們移送了這麼多然後呢起訴率在下降還起訴率和不起訴率在增加這是為什麼你也解釋給我聽看看跟我們人民的觀感是相反的跟委員報告檢察官不管是起訴不起訴還起訴其實都是個案上他的一個證據判斷這個部分我們必須那我可不這麼認為我舉黃子佼的案例來看他無故持有\n\n31\n00:12:10,789 --> 00:12:38,360\n那他這個東西是緩起訴緩起訴你們的理由是說他是出犯而且避免受害女子在審判過程要受到二度傷害決定給予緩起訴而不是輕重但是因為社會輿論之後你們現在才要求這個以未完備偵查所以要再去刑偵查我的意思是說我們就去年修法後就持有就要刻以刑責了\n\n32\n00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:50,946\n可是沒有用!我們才持有七部耶!我們修法去年修法一月就修好了!修法的目的就是要針對持有的人一定要刻意行責!這個是我們社會的共識、立法院的共識而修好的法!你們檢察署\n\n33\n00:13:01,178 --> 00:13:24,574\n你們這個地檢署那個哪一個,台北地檢署你們讓立法院的修法讓社會的輿論淪為笑話把它從行政法變成刑法結果你辦這個高度社會矚目的案件而且是一個持有七部兒少未成年兒少性剝削影像的人你給他變成說還起訴\n\n34\n00:13:26,946 --> 00:13:47,966\n所以你說為什麼不起訴率降不起訴率提高還起訴率也提高比例還上升你看第檢署辦理違反兒少法第39條的無辜持有的因為是去年才修法嘛所以你來看38件起訴了38人起訴6人還起訴8人不起訴23人\n\n35\n00:13:53,192 --> 00:14:11,802\n這個是法律修得不好還是法律警察機關執法的時候過程沒有專業能力還是你們地檢署在辦案的時候輕輕放下連黃子佼這種高度社會矚目只有七步而且剛修法完高度社會矚目你們都還可以還起訴然後硬要跟社會對幹我這到底是什麼原因啊\n\n36\n00:14:19,431 --> 00:14:37,415\n還是跟委員說明緩起訴其實就檢察官認定上緩起訴還是最顯重大在檢察官心裡他還是一個犯罪行為那至於個案他到底我們當然知道啦緩起訴的加緩起訴的相加緩起訴加不起訴的31件38件他們兩個加起來\n\n37\n00:14:41,716 --> 00:14:47,281\n全部38件起訴才6件起訴加還起訴你認為還起訴還是犯罪樣態嗎?6加8還是小於不起訴的23\n\n38\n00:14:52,435 --> 00:15:16,441\n但是跟委員報告因為個案上都是以證據來認定他有所以我問你啊是警察機關大家都講修法啊重重量刑啊行政法改成刑法啊現在還要加入這個付付費對價關攔這種也要入刑法啊可是土法只有這個法有辦法法律也定了也修了也增訂了\n\n39\n00:15:18,485 --> 00:15:19,808\n是你們檢查地檢署的問題?還是警察機關有問題,連辦案的專業能力都沒有啊?\n\n40\n00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:48,625\n跟委員報告其實我們可以提升這個徵收的量能那這中間當然還涉及到有關於一些科技偵查方法還是因為沒有這個工具法案還是在立法院在行政院研議中那所以39條是無故持有一定是查到你的電腦裡面已經有\n\n41\n00:15:50,626 --> 00:16:06,489\n有影像了,什麼徵收工具,這種東西才要移送,結果你們還是給他不起訴,一定是電腦裡面或是家裡面收到,不管是DVD或是主機裡面下載的,一定是有了,才會叫無辜持有,結果到你們那裡是還起訴加不起訴,\n\n42\n00:16:14,631 --> 00:16:25,598\n林委員,時間的關係,是不是等於請司長再做一個說明?主席,我再講一下,這你講不清楚,我告訴你,這真的是真正的問題,警察的專案辦案的年齡不足,然後在檢訴裡面,對這種的看法認為說可以還起訴的還起訴,連黃子椒高度社會矚目,違反我們社會的共識的,你們也敢還起訴了?\n\n43\n00:16:41,127 --> 00:17:08,298\n所以這個才是大問題來我再問一下就是說我們柯總召臉書剛有一篇叫死刑是否違憲裡面講到立法者或造法者都應該要自我省失法律應該反映國民的正當法律感情不可以無視於民意更不應該以精英思維專斷主張以精英式的獨斷決定凌駕於民意共識之上不僅會對社會造成衝擊\n\n44\n00:17:10,499 --> 00:17:22,131\n與割裂,更不利於我國的民主發展,所以立法者本於立法的職權,修法反映了國民正當的法律感情回憶名義,而司法院\n\n45\n00:17:24,308 --> 00:17:40,127\n從警察、從地檢署、現在到司法院法官現在動輒以刑法第59條刑法第59條司法院來看一下因為等一下還要處理臨時提案我知道主席這個案子難道\n\n46\n00:17:40,848 --> 00:17:43,870\n不能稍微再談一下嗎?這個案子有被討論過嗎?我們在這裡第一次討論我們現在講說這個地方法院刑事一審訴訟被告違反性剝削第36條裁判結果就是從地檢署裡面已經起訴的然後送進去法院你自己看\n\n47\n00:18:00,620 --> 00:18:01,321\n從行政法修法以來,第39條\n\n48\n00:18:23,641 --> 00:18:30,468\n三十九條他的裁判件數是零當然理由很多啦\n\n49\n00:18:32,490 --> 00:18:57,140\n起訴的六件結果裁判數字是零沒有判的結果,那就39條但是我們現在要看第36條第36條你起訴了,好不容易起訴了,送到地方法院去地方法院法官動輒就說可以服,其請可免啊大家給他動用刑法第59條減輕其這個刑度的\n\n50\n00:19:03,243 --> 00:19:19,011\n1080、254件的案件動用了第59條減刑的有46件到去年671件大家都知道案件數逐年成長然後到去年給它動用減刑條例的超過三分之一是274件比例\n\n51\n00:19:23,258 --> 00:19:34,248\n檢刑不斷的大家修法要從重結果在法院的判刑是每年递增的在使用檢刑條例從2019年的18%到一年上升到隔年是28%的檢刑再到110年是32%的檢刑到111年\n\n52\n00:19:46,539 --> 00:20:12,235\n這種利用兒少製造影片然後在這種大家講要加重期刑的時候他還不斷地減刑到去年減刑的比例高達41%委員我們是不是到這個主條的時候我們再來討論這跟主條有什麼相關這個我講的叫土法不足以自刑嘛我們今天在這裡立法院重重重演主條再加嚴\n\n53\n00:20:14,036 --> 00:20:39,371\n可是司法院、地檢署、到警政單位這種辦案的態度這種不斷的檢刑然後還起訴不起訴這樣下去的話這個傷害國民情感然後在這裡讓立法院的修法淪為笑話好啦,我就就是說這樣,寶丁你最後有什麼話要說的,你敢不敢\n\n54\n00:20:41,079 --> 00:20:47,861\n主席,我們開會都很早就結束了,我們可以開會開到下午五點,以前的衛生委員會開會都開到下午五點啦。二輪,第二輪,第二輪發言我可以等,我現在可以結束我第二輪發言,登記。\n\n55\n00:21:09,369 --> 00:21:34,554\n還是給部長說了算就好了?這就是牽涉到我們的整個司法制度我剛剛講的有沒有道理?是不是問題?也是一個問題之所在,但是真正的背後的原因可能還要再更深入的去分析、了解\n\n56\n00:21:35,492 --> 00:21:54,265\n分析原因,大家在這裡雙手一攤束手無策,結果犯罪樣態、犯罪的案件數、犯罪的量不斷地增加,受害者未成年的一直增加,成年的也一直增加,然後成為台灣國家的國際形象受損,然後受害的人民越來越多。」\n\n57\n00:21:55,226 --> 00:22:13,130\n可能這一個,比如說剛剛委員提到的這一個用刑法59條來減刑的比例之所以會上升的話是不是我們立法立得不合我們法律立得有問題一定有它的原因在這還是需要再進一步去\n\n58\n00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:33,999\n不是啊,我們立法要構成要件明確性、罪責相當性、橫平性我們的立法有問題才讓法官這樣子動輒就啟動59條的減刑條款嗎?是我們立法院的立法有問題嗎?否則法官為什麼每個人四成的人都要減刑囉?好啦,謝謝啦,回去討論一下\n\n59\n00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,882\n和社會福利及衛生環境委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6961\t12085\t主席各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們這個薛部長請薛部長委員好\n19899\t32025\t部長,我們這個兒少性剝削的這個防治條例其實現在大家去年1月就修好了現在才回過頭才發現說支付關攬、支付對價關攬這個犯罪樣態根本沒有放進去\n37487\t39147\t全體委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、\n59852\t81625\t開刀房裡面的病人被偷拍所以我們現在很高度的關注是因為性影像的拍攝、製造、偷拍等等很多這種對人權侵犯、對人身侵犯程度來講相當高的這種樣態其實都是以販賣盈利散播為目的\n82765\t108826\t所以他們動輒到時候承認的時候說這是我自己想要拍下來留念自己觀看其實我們都開始覺得說背後很不單純所以由此可知以性犯罪的樣態來製作這個性影像的網頁網站或盈利行為應該非常嚴重就像我上一次就說的美國就有一個調查\n109346\t114670\t美國這個兒童性剝削通報系統的統計發現從2019到2022美方偵測兒少性剝削影像來自臺灣IP的通報數量成長2.3倍從3萬到7萬所以凸顯了性剝削影像近年在臺灣的氾濫程度而現在我們要講的是不只是未成年兒少的影像\n135003\t163405\t包括成年人的這個性犯罪影像都是以這類的樣態為居多所以我們真的想台灣到底是怎麼了怎麼了那我也上次也講說土法不足以自刑你們今天大家都講很多但我為什麼要講大家都把責任丟到立法院來立委你要不要加重其刑立法院你要不要加重其刑土法只有加重土刑\n164366\t192264\t無效啊!這就不是跟立法院說的叫行動會寫得高的我現在為什麼講說修法可以阻嚇這個犯罪嗎?要有一些技術方面的資源才有可能啦技術方面的資源你講的意思好像是講警政署但因為今天警政委員而已所以我也就我就算了跟他們講在這裡也無效現在\n194165\t200449\t一個警政委員隨時等著要外派出去當官的而已,當地方警政單位的局長而已,所以我就不講了,但是我們講說你說要技術上的資源,\n209355\t225186\t去年11月8日婦女救援基金會在《婦女和性別議題的政策研討論壇》當中就說性影像聯防的四個法修訂後的建議不是只有法律修訂啊他在講偵辦人員就是警政單位的偵辦人員相關經費器材不足偵辦困難且耗時間沒有跨縣市的專責人力都是多項都是監辦而且沒有專責人力都是這個監辦以外連專責單位也沒有\n239455\t265821\t副、右、對的偵辦經費也很少然後專業的網路人員經驗傳承也沒有辦法因為這個很多第一線的承辦人員他們對法律的認識和適用有待加強等等啦包括網路偵查這個境外的網路要下架對散佈匿名行為的人要起訴定罪這個在技術上都很難以外\n267101\t291442\t在2021年臺灣公共行政和公共事務所聯合會暨國際學術研導會的議程裏面他們討論到兒童及少年性剝削防治機制的現況與困境與對策裏面也一再的講專業辦案的專業能力仍有不足的地方而且警察機關跟網路業者的協調合作機制未完善化而且\n292924\t303275\t網路兒少遭受性剝削犯罪的犯案手段推陳出新不義防治違反兒少性剝削防治條例的量刑低起訴也低\n307363\t334415\t那我現在在講說到底有多低?到底量刑有多低?起訴率到底有多低?圖法不足以自行,你這個修法到底有沒有用?從去年才大修過,我們就比較一下去年1月通過,2月15號施行新的,就是增加了39條,連無故持有都要從行政法變成刑法\n335555\t351955\t那36條的使兒童或少年被拍攝自拍或製造性影像這個提高的行程從3年到7年變成3年到10年嗎那我現在看第一個表格我現在不懂因為你們上個禮拜來報告\n354421\t362506\t衛福部統計拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品,2022年1971件,2023年2903件。」這是你們統計資料嗎?上個禮拜提供的。法務部那裡為什麼只有692件跟767件?\n379609\t401771\t違反36條的到地方法院一審判決的件數590跟688我現在不懂你們統計數據以2023年為例明明就是拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品就違反兒少剝削條例的第36條的\n403473\t414118\t你們統計是2900件為什麼到法務部地檢署偵查終結的人數是767件起訴了498767裡面起訴498為什麼落差這麼大衛福部的統計是有來做申訴通報的\n431104\t450209\t案件室。」那請問這個是告訴來論罪嗎?兒少不是。對啊。那為什麼來這裡做申訴?你們有沒有這個移送法辦的義務?有啊。有啊。來,檢查單,地檢署。地檢署誰來?法務部啊。哦,檢查師來。好,來。市長。郭市長。\n454700\t465384\t兩千九百件到法務部地檢署辦理偵查終結人數剩下七百六十七人\n475780\t504526\t跟委員報告因為我們是地檢署說案是以被告的人數做計算我們不曉得衛福部這邊過來的是一個統計基準你們是用被害人他也是人數啊我們是被告人數被告這個又不是告訴哪一論罪這公訴罪每一件每一個人數每一個個案當然會有可能是一件數個人啦但是但是\n505734\t533953\t到最後怎麼會大幅縮水也不至於大幅縮水縮水所以如果照你所說是每一個人都拍了好多個喔每一個人拍了五個四個喔每一個都是犯罪行為是累犯而且不斷的在重重複犯罪的根委員報告一個被告他可能有很多的一個被害人所以在統計上面衛務部過來所以這些人都很可惡喔好來沒關係那法院來\n535222\t552158\t今天是司法院副庭長每個人如你所說受害人都很多人的話到地方法院一審裁判件數含無罪的含無罪的767人到最後是688件\n561581\t585407\t含無罪的這數量也少了767變成688這可能原因是什麼?是委員好跟委員報告我們法院裁判依照這個兒少腺波穴防治條例36條我們的統計數字是確實是688沒有錯我知道啦我在問你說為什麼從767變成688692變成590\n592383\t617599\t都少了很多欸對阿為什麼因為這裡面還含無罪的也在裡面每個案件怎麼到一集一集上去人數也少了這為什麼阿我現在在問你們阿我跟委員報告我的了解是我們這邊的688是指裁判的件數\n619541\t634069\t就是說我們說檢察官起訴之後法院經過法院裁判的件數是688那我知道了OK那司法院你先回去了現在我要問法務部下一張這個表格為什麼我講這個呢\n635885\t662174\t可以看得出來2019年到2023年違反兒少性剝削條例的案件數是不斷的增加108年是215件到112年是767件可是在這種案件逐年增加裡面我們非常不了解的是起訴率從2019年的76.3的起訴率到現在下降 逐年下降到64.9\n663695\t668117\t主年下降,76.3變成67.3變成63.4變成62.3最後變成64.9還起訴的比例其實主年上升從108年的2.3%的還起訴到現在是4.0不起訴的比例也是主年在攀升10.2的不起訴到18.5\n691543\t693808\t難道是警察辦案每一件都瑕疵這麼多嗎?為什麼這樣子?這個數據和人民的情感和社會的觀感和我們輿論的觀察\n702540\t729869\t差很大我發現我們移送了這麼多然後呢起訴率在下降還起訴率和不起訴率在增加這是為什麼你也解釋給我聽看看跟我們人民的觀感是相反的跟委員報告檢察官不管是起訴不起訴還起訴其實都是個案上他的一個證據判斷這個部分我們必須那我可不這麼認為我舉黃子佼的案例來看他無故持有\n730789\t758360\t那他這個東西是緩起訴緩起訴你們的理由是說他是出犯而且避免受害女子在審判過程要受到二度傷害決定給予緩起訴而不是輕重但是因為社會輿論之後你們現在才要求這個以未完備偵查所以要再去刑偵查我的意思是說我們就去年修法後就持有就要刻以刑責了\n759500\t770946\t可是沒有用!我們才持有七部耶!我們修法去年修法一月就修好了!修法的目的就是要針對持有的人一定要刻意行責!這個是我們社會的共識、立法院的共識而修好的法!你們檢察署\n781178\t804574\t你們這個地檢署那個哪一個,台北地檢署你們讓立法院的修法讓社會的輿論淪為笑話把它從行政法變成刑法結果你辦這個高度社會矚目的案件而且是一個持有七部兒少未成年兒少性剝削影像的人你給他變成說還起訴\n806946\t827966\t所以你說為什麼不起訴率降不起訴率提高還起訴率也提高比例還上升你看第檢署辦理違反兒少法第39條的無辜持有的因為是去年才修法嘛所以你來看38件起訴了38人起訴6人還起訴8人不起訴23人\n833192\t851802\t這個是法律修得不好還是法律警察機關執法的時候過程沒有專業能力還是你們地檢署在辦案的時候輕輕放下連黃子佼這種高度社會矚目只有七步而且剛修法完高度社會矚目你們都還可以還起訴然後硬要跟社會對幹我這到底是什麼原因啊\n859431\t877415\t還是跟委員說明緩起訴其實就檢察官認定上緩起訴還是最顯重大在檢察官心裡他還是一個犯罪行為那至於個案他到底我們當然知道啦緩起訴的加緩起訴的相加緩起訴加不起訴的31件38件他們兩個加起來\n881716\t887281\t全部38件起訴才6件起訴加還起訴你認為還起訴還是犯罪樣態嗎?6加8還是小於不起訴的23\n892435\t916441\t但是跟委員報告因為個案上都是以證據來認定他有所以我問你啊是警察機關大家都講修法啊重重量刑啊行政法改成刑法啊現在還要加入這個付付費對價關攔這種也要入刑法啊可是土法只有這個法有辦法法律也定了也修了也增訂了\n918485\t919808\t是你們檢查地檢署的問題?還是警察機關有問題,連辦案的專業能力都沒有啊?\n929560\t948625\t跟委員報告其實我們可以提升這個徵收的量能那這中間當然還涉及到有關於一些科技偵查方法還是因為沒有這個工具法案還是在立法院在行政院研議中那所以39條是無故持有一定是查到你的電腦裡面已經有\n950626\t966489\t有影像了,什麼徵收工具,這種東西才要移送,結果你們還是給他不起訴,一定是電腦裡面或是家裡面收到,不管是DVD或是主機裡面下載的,一定是有了,才會叫無辜持有,結果到你們那裡是還起訴加不起訴,\n974631\t985598\t林委員,時間的關係,是不是等於請司長再做一個說明?主席,我再講一下,這你講不清楚,我告訴你,這真的是真正的問題,警察的專案辦案的年齡不足,然後在檢訴裡面,對這種的看法認為說可以還起訴的還起訴,連黃子椒高度社會矚目,違反我們社會的共識的,你們也敢還起訴了?\n1001127\t1028298\t所以這個才是大問題來我再問一下就是說我們柯總召臉書剛有一篇叫死刑是否違憲裡面講到立法者或造法者都應該要自我省失法律應該反映國民的正當法律感情不可以無視於民意更不應該以精英思維專斷主張以精英式的獨斷決定凌駕於民意共識之上不僅會對社會造成衝擊\n1030499\t1042131\t與割裂,更不利於我國的民主發展,所以立法者本於立法的職權,修法反映了國民正當的法律感情回憶名義,而司法院\n1044308\t1060127\t從警察、從地檢署、現在到司法院法官現在動輒以刑法第59條刑法第59條司法院來看一下因為等一下還要處理臨時提案我知道主席這個案子難道\n1060848\t1063870\t不能稍微再談一下嗎?這個案子有被討論過嗎?我們在這裡第一次討論我們現在講說這個地方法院刑事一審訴訟被告違反性剝削第36條裁判結果就是從地檢署裡面已經起訴的然後送進去法院你自己看\n1080620\t1081321\t從行政法修法以來,第39條\n1103641\t1110468\t三十九條他的裁判件數是零當然理由很多啦\n1112490\t1137140\t起訴的六件結果裁判數字是零沒有判的結果,那就39條但是我們現在要看第36條第36條你起訴了,好不容易起訴了,送到地方法院去地方法院法官動輒就說可以服,其請可免啊大家給他動用刑法第59條減輕其這個刑度的\n1143243\t1159011\t1080、254件的案件動用了第59條減刑的有46件到去年671件大家都知道案件數逐年成長然後到去年給它動用減刑條例的超過三分之一是274件比例\n1163258\t1174248\t檢刑不斷的大家修法要從重結果在法院的判刑是每年递增的在使用檢刑條例從2019年的18%到一年上升到隔年是28%的檢刑再到110年是32%的檢刑到111年\n1186539\t1212235\t這種利用兒少製造影片然後在這種大家講要加重期刑的時候他還不斷地減刑到去年減刑的比例高達41%委員我們是不是到這個主條的時候我們再來討論這跟主條有什麼相關這個我講的叫土法不足以自刑嘛我們今天在這裡立法院重重重演主條再加嚴\n1214036\t1239371\t可是司法院、地檢署、到警政單位這種辦案的態度這種不斷的檢刑然後還起訴不起訴這樣下去的話這個傷害國民情感然後在這裡讓立法院的修法淪為笑話好啦,我就就是說這樣,寶丁你最後有什麼話要說的,你敢不敢\n1241079\t1247861\t主席,我們開會都很早就結束了,我們可以開會開到下午五點,以前的衛生委員會開會都開到下午五點啦。二輪,第二輪,第二輪發言我可以等,我現在可以結束我第二輪發言,登記。\n1269369\t1294554\t還是給部長說了算就好了?這就是牽涉到我們的整個司法制度我剛剛講的有沒有道理?是不是問題?也是一個問題之所在,但是真正的背後的原因可能還要再更深入的去分析、了解\n1295492\t1314265\t分析原因,大家在這裡雙手一攤束手無策,結果犯罪樣態、犯罪的案件數、犯罪的量不斷地增加,受害者未成年的一直增加,成年的也一直增加,然後成為台灣國家的國際形象受損,然後受害的人民越來越多。」\n1315226\t1333130\t可能這一個,比如說剛剛委員提到的這一個用刑法59條來減刑的比例之所以會上升的話是不是我們立法立得不合我們法律立得有問題一定有它的原因在這還是需要再進一步去\n1333510\t1353999\t不是啊,我們立法要構成要件明確性、罪責相當性、橫平性我們的立法有問題才讓法官這樣子動輒就啟動59條的減刑條款嗎?是我們立法院的立法有問題嗎?否則法官為什麼每個人四成的人都要減刑囉?好啦,謝謝啦,回去討論一下\n1363800\t1368882\t和社會福利及衛生環境委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會\n","txt":"主席各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們這個薛部長請薛部長委員好\n部長,我們這個兒少性剝削的這個防治條例其實現在大家去年1月就修好了現在才回過頭才發現說支付關攬、支付對價關攬這個犯罪樣態根本沒有放進去\n全體委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、\n開刀房裡面的病人被偷拍所以我們現在很高度的關注是因為性影像的拍攝、製造、偷拍等等很多這種對人權侵犯、對人身侵犯程度來講相當高的這種樣態其實都是以販賣盈利散播為目的\n所以他們動輒到時候承認的時候說這是我自己想要拍下來留念自己觀看其實我們都開始覺得說背後很不單純所以由此可知以性犯罪的樣態來製作這個性影像的網頁網站或盈利行為應該非常嚴重就像我上一次就說的美國就有一個調查\n美國這個兒童性剝削通報系統的統計發現從2019到2022美方偵測兒少性剝削影像來自臺灣IP的通報數量成長2.3倍從3萬到7萬所以凸顯了性剝削影像近年在臺灣的氾濫程度而現在我們要講的是不只是未成年兒少的影像\n包括成年人的這個性犯罪影像都是以這類的樣態為居多所以我們真的想台灣到底是怎麼了怎麼了那我也上次也講說土法不足以自刑你們今天大家都講很多但我為什麼要講大家都把責任丟到立法院來立委你要不要加重其刑立法院你要不要加重其刑土法只有加重土刑\n無效啊!這就不是跟立法院說的叫行動會寫得高的我現在為什麼講說修法可以阻嚇這個犯罪嗎?要有一些技術方面的資源才有可能啦技術方面的資源你講的意思好像是講警政署但因為今天警政委員而已所以我也就我就算了跟他們講在這裡也無效現在\n一個警政委員隨時等著要外派出去當官的而已,當地方警政單位的局長而已,所以我就不講了,但是我們講說你說要技術上的資源,\n去年11月8日婦女救援基金會在《婦女和性別議題的政策研討論壇》當中就說性影像聯防的四個法修訂後的建議不是只有法律修訂啊他在講偵辦人員就是警政單位的偵辦人員相關經費器材不足偵辦困難且耗時間沒有跨縣市的專責人力都是多項都是監辦而且沒有專責人力都是這個監辦以外連專責單位也沒有\n副、右、對的偵辦經費也很少然後專業的網路人員經驗傳承也沒有辦法因為這個很多第一線的承辦人員他們對法律的認識和適用有待加強等等啦包括網路偵查這個境外的網路要下架對散佈匿名行為的人要起訴定罪這個在技術上都很難以外\n在2021年臺灣公共行政和公共事務所聯合會暨國際學術研導會的議程裏面他們討論到兒童及少年性剝削防治機制的現況與困境與對策裏面也一再的講專業辦案的專業能力仍有不足的地方而且警察機關跟網路業者的協調合作機制未完善化而且\n網路兒少遭受性剝削犯罪的犯案手段推陳出新不義防治違反兒少性剝削防治條例的量刑低起訴也低\n那我現在在講說到底有多低?到底量刑有多低?起訴率到底有多低?圖法不足以自行,你這個修法到底有沒有用?從去年才大修過,我們就比較一下去年1月通過,2月15號施行新的,就是增加了39條,連無故持有都要從行政法變成刑法\n那36條的使兒童或少年被拍攝自拍或製造性影像這個提高的行程從3年到7年變成3年到10年嗎那我現在看第一個表格我現在不懂因為你們上個禮拜來報告\n衛福部統計拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品,2022年1971件,2023年2903件。」這是你們統計資料嗎?上個禮拜提供的。法務部那裡為什麼只有692件跟767件?\n違反36條的到地方法院一審判決的件數590跟688我現在不懂你們統計數據以2023年為例明明就是拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品就違反兒少剝削條例的第36條的\n你們統計是2900件為什麼到法務部地檢署偵查終結的人數是767件起訴了498767裡面起訴498為什麼落差這麼大衛福部的統計是有來做申訴通報的\n案件室。」那請問這個是告訴來論罪嗎?兒少不是。對啊。那為什麼來這裡做申訴?你們有沒有這個移送法辦的義務?有啊。有啊。來,檢查單,地檢署。地檢署誰來?法務部啊。哦,檢查師來。好,來。市長。郭市長。\n兩千九百件到法務部地檢署辦理偵查終結人數剩下七百六十七人\n跟委員報告因為我們是地檢署說案是以被告的人數做計算我們不曉得衛福部這邊過來的是一個統計基準你們是用被害人他也是人數啊我們是被告人數被告這個又不是告訴哪一論罪這公訴罪每一件每一個人數每一個個案當然會有可能是一件數個人啦但是但是\n到最後怎麼會大幅縮水也不至於大幅縮水縮水所以如果照你所說是每一個人都拍了好多個喔每一個人拍了五個四個喔每一個都是犯罪行為是累犯而且不斷的在重重複犯罪的根委員報告一個被告他可能有很多的一個被害人所以在統計上面衛務部過來所以這些人都很可惡喔好來沒關係那法院來\n今天是司法院副庭長每個人如你所說受害人都很多人的話到地方法院一審裁判件數含無罪的含無罪的767人到最後是688件\n含無罪的這數量也少了767變成688這可能原因是什麼?是委員好跟委員報告我們法院裁判依照這個兒少腺波穴防治條例36條我們的統計數字是確實是688沒有錯我知道啦我在問你說為什麼從767變成688692變成590\n都少了很多欸對阿為什麼因為這裡面還含無罪的也在裡面每個案件怎麼到一集一集上去人數也少了這為什麼阿我現在在問你們阿我跟委員報告我的了解是我們這邊的688是指裁判的件數\n就是說我們說檢察官起訴之後法院經過法院裁判的件數是688那我知道了OK那司法院你先回去了現在我要問法務部下一張這個表格為什麼我講這個呢\n可以看得出來2019年到2023年違反兒少性剝削條例的案件數是不斷的增加108年是215件到112年是767件可是在這種案件逐年增加裡面我們非常不了解的是起訴率從2019年的76.3的起訴率到現在下降 逐年下降到64.9\n主年下降,76.3變成67.3變成63.4變成62.3最後變成64.9還起訴的比例其實主年上升從108年的2.3%的還起訴到現在是4.0不起訴的比例也是主年在攀升10.2的不起訴到18.5\n難道是警察辦案每一件都瑕疵這麼多嗎?為什麼這樣子?這個數據和人民的情感和社會的觀感和我們輿論的觀察\n差很大我發現我們移送了這麼多然後呢起訴率在下降還起訴率和不起訴率在增加這是為什麼你也解釋給我聽看看跟我們人民的觀感是相反的跟委員報告檢察官不管是起訴不起訴還起訴其實都是個案上他的一個證據判斷這個部分我們必須那我可不這麼認為我舉黃子佼的案例來看他無故持有\n那他這個東西是緩起訴緩起訴你們的理由是說他是出犯而且避免受害女子在審判過程要受到二度傷害決定給予緩起訴而不是輕重但是因為社會輿論之後你們現在才要求這個以未完備偵查所以要再去刑偵查我的意思是說我們就去年修法後就持有就要刻以刑責了\n可是沒有用!我們才持有七部耶!我們修法去年修法一月就修好了!修法的目的就是要針對持有的人一定要刻意行責!這個是我們社會的共識、立法院的共識而修好的法!你們檢察署\n你們這個地檢署那個哪一個,台北地檢署你們讓立法院的修法讓社會的輿論淪為笑話把它從行政法變成刑法結果你辦這個高度社會矚目的案件而且是一個持有七部兒少未成年兒少性剝削影像的人你給他變成說還起訴\n所以你說為什麼不起訴率降不起訴率提高還起訴率也提高比例還上升你看第檢署辦理違反兒少法第39條的無辜持有的因為是去年才修法嘛所以你來看38件起訴了38人起訴6人還起訴8人不起訴23人\n這個是法律修得不好還是法律警察機關執法的時候過程沒有專業能力還是你們地檢署在辦案的時候輕輕放下連黃子佼這種高度社會矚目只有七步而且剛修法完高度社會矚目你們都還可以還起訴然後硬要跟社會對幹我這到底是什麼原因啊\n還是跟委員說明緩起訴其實就檢察官認定上緩起訴還是最顯重大在檢察官心裡他還是一個犯罪行為那至於個案他到底我們當然知道啦緩起訴的加緩起訴的相加緩起訴加不起訴的31件38件他們兩個加起來\n全部38件起訴才6件起訴加還起訴你認為還起訴還是犯罪樣態嗎?6加8還是小於不起訴的23\n但是跟委員報告因為個案上都是以證據來認定他有所以我問你啊是警察機關大家都講修法啊重重量刑啊行政法改成刑法啊現在還要加入這個付付費對價關攔這種也要入刑法啊可是土法只有這個法有辦法法律也定了也修了也增訂了\n是你們檢查地檢署的問題?還是警察機關有問題,連辦案的專業能力都沒有啊?\n跟委員報告其實我們可以提升這個徵收的量能那這中間當然還涉及到有關於一些科技偵查方法還是因為沒有這個工具法案還是在立法院在行政院研議中那所以39條是無故持有一定是查到你的電腦裡面已經有\n有影像了,什麼徵收工具,這種東西才要移送,結果你們還是給他不起訴,一定是電腦裡面或是家裡面收到,不管是DVD或是主機裡面下載的,一定是有了,才會叫無辜持有,結果到你們那裡是還起訴加不起訴,\n林委員,時間的關係,是不是等於請司長再做一個說明?主席,我再講一下,這你講不清楚,我告訴你,這真的是真正的問題,警察的專案辦案的年齡不足,然後在檢訴裡面,對這種的看法認為說可以還起訴的還起訴,連黃子椒高度社會矚目,違反我們社會的共識的,你們也敢還起訴了?\n所以這個才是大問題來我再問一下就是說我們柯總召臉書剛有一篇叫死刑是否違憲裡面講到立法者或造法者都應該要自我省失法律應該反映國民的正當法律感情不可以無視於民意更不應該以精英思維專斷主張以精英式的獨斷決定凌駕於民意共識之上不僅會對社會造成衝擊\n與割裂,更不利於我國的民主發展,所以立法者本於立法的職權,修法反映了國民正當的法律感情回憶名義,而司法院\n從警察、從地檢署、現在到司法院法官現在動輒以刑法第59條刑法第59條司法院來看一下因為等一下還要處理臨時提案我知道主席這個案子難道\n不能稍微再談一下嗎?這個案子有被討論過嗎?我們在這裡第一次討論我們現在講說這個地方法院刑事一審訴訟被告違反性剝削第36條裁判結果就是從地檢署裡面已經起訴的然後送進去法院你自己看\n從行政法修法以來,第39條\n三十九條他的裁判件數是零當然理由很多啦\n起訴的六件結果裁判數字是零沒有判的結果,那就39條但是我們現在要看第36條第36條你起訴了,好不容易起訴了,送到地方法院去地方法院法官動輒就說可以服,其請可免啊大家給他動用刑法第59條減輕其這個刑度的\n1080、254件的案件動用了第59條減刑的有46件到去年671件大家都知道案件數逐年成長然後到去年給它動用減刑條例的超過三分之一是274件比例\n檢刑不斷的大家修法要從重結果在法院的判刑是每年递增的在使用檢刑條例從2019年的18%到一年上升到隔年是28%的檢刑再到110年是32%的檢刑到111年\n這種利用兒少製造影片然後在這種大家講要加重期刑的時候他還不斷地減刑到去年減刑的比例高達41%委員我們是不是到這個主條的時候我們再來討論這跟主條有什麼相關這個我講的叫土法不足以自刑嘛我們今天在這裡立法院重重重演主條再加嚴\n可是司法院、地檢署、到警政單位這種辦案的態度這種不斷的檢刑然後還起訴不起訴這樣下去的話這個傷害國民情感然後在這裡讓立法院的修法淪為笑話好啦,我就就是說這樣,寶丁你最後有什麼話要說的,你敢不敢\n主席,我們開會都很早就結束了,我們可以開會開到下午五點,以前的衛生委員會開會都開到下午五點啦。二輪,第二輪,第二輪發言我可以等,我現在可以結束我第二輪發言,登記。\n還是給部長說了算就好了?這就是牽涉到我們的整個司法制度我剛剛講的有沒有道理?是不是問題?也是一個問題之所在,但是真正的背後的原因可能還要再更深入的去分析、了解\n分析原因,大家在這裡雙手一攤束手無策,結果犯罪樣態、犯罪的案件數、犯罪的量不斷地增加,受害者未成年的一直增加,成年的也一直增加,然後成為台灣國家的國際形象受損,然後受害的人民越來越多。」\n可能這一個,比如說剛剛委員提到的這一個用刑法59條來減刑的比例之所以會上升的話是不是我們立法立得不合我們法律立得有問題一定有它的原因在這還是需要再進一步去\n不是啊,我們立法要構成要件明確性、罪責相當性、橫平性我們的立法有問題才讓法官這樣子動輒就啟動59條的減刑條款嗎?是我們立法院的立法有問題嗎?否則法官為什麼每個人四成的人都要減刑囉?好啦,謝謝啦,回去討論一下\n和社會福利及衛生環境委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.961 --> 00:12.085\n主席各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們這個薛部長請薛部長委員好\n\n00:19.899 --> 00:32.025\n部長,我們這個兒少性剝削的這個防治條例其實現在大家去年1月就修好了現在才回過頭才發現說支付關攬、支付對價關攬這個犯罪樣態根本沒有放進去\n\n00:37.487 --> 00:39.147\n全體委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、\n\n00:59.852 --> 01:21.625\n開刀房裡面的病人被偷拍所以我們現在很高度的關注是因為性影像的拍攝、製造、偷拍等等很多這種對人權侵犯、對人身侵犯程度來講相當高的這種樣態其實都是以販賣盈利散播為目的\n\n01:22.765 --> 01:48.826\n所以他們動輒到時候承認的時候說這是我自己想要拍下來留念自己觀看其實我們都開始覺得說背後很不單純所以由此可知以性犯罪的樣態來製作這個性影像的網頁網站或盈利行為應該非常嚴重就像我上一次就說的美國就有一個調查\n\n01:49.346 --> 01:54.670\n美國這個兒童性剝削通報系統的統計發現從2019到2022美方偵測兒少性剝削影像來自臺灣IP的通報數量成長2.3倍從3萬到7萬所以凸顯了性剝削影像近年在臺灣的氾濫程度而現在我們要講的是不只是未成年兒少的影像\n\n02:15.003 --> 02:43.405\n包括成年人的這個性犯罪影像都是以這類的樣態為居多所以我們真的想台灣到底是怎麼了怎麼了那我也上次也講說土法不足以自刑你們今天大家都講很多但我為什麼要講大家都把責任丟到立法院來立委你要不要加重其刑立法院你要不要加重其刑土法只有加重土刑\n\n02:44.366 --> 03:12.264\n無效啊!這就不是跟立法院說的叫行動會寫得高的我現在為什麼講說修法可以阻嚇這個犯罪嗎?要有一些技術方面的資源才有可能啦技術方面的資源你講的意思好像是講警政署但因為今天警政委員而已所以我也就我就算了跟他們講在這裡也無效現在\n\n03:14.165 --> 03:20.449\n一個警政委員隨時等著要外派出去當官的而已,當地方警政單位的局長而已,所以我就不講了,但是我們講說你說要技術上的資源,\n\n03:29.355 --> 03:45.186\n去年11月8日婦女救援基金會在《婦女和性別議題的政策研討論壇》當中就說性影像聯防的四個法修訂後的建議不是只有法律修訂啊他在講偵辦人員就是警政單位的偵辦人員相關經費器材不足偵辦困難且耗時間沒有跨縣市的專責人力都是多項都是監辦而且沒有專責人力都是這個監辦以外連專責單位也沒有\n\n03:59.455 --> 04:25.821\n副、右、對的偵辦經費也很少然後專業的網路人員經驗傳承也沒有辦法因為這個很多第一線的承辦人員他們對法律的認識和適用有待加強等等啦包括網路偵查這個境外的網路要下架對散佈匿名行為的人要起訴定罪這個在技術上都很難以外\n\n04:27.101 --> 04:51.442\n在2021年臺灣公共行政和公共事務所聯合會暨國際學術研導會的議程裏面他們討論到兒童及少年性剝削防治機制的現況與困境與對策裏面也一再的講專業辦案的專業能力仍有不足的地方而且警察機關跟網路業者的協調合作機制未完善化而且\n\n04:52.924 --> 05:03.275\n網路兒少遭受性剝削犯罪的犯案手段推陳出新不義防治違反兒少性剝削防治條例的量刑低起訴也低\n\n05:07.363 --> 05:34.415\n那我現在在講說到底有多低?到底量刑有多低?起訴率到底有多低?圖法不足以自行,你這個修法到底有沒有用?從去年才大修過,我們就比較一下去年1月通過,2月15號施行新的,就是增加了39條,連無故持有都要從行政法變成刑法\n\n05:35.555 --> 05:51.955\n那36條的使兒童或少年被拍攝自拍或製造性影像這個提高的行程從3年到7年變成3年到10年嗎那我現在看第一個表格我現在不懂因為你們上個禮拜來報告\n\n05:54.421 --> 06:02.506\n衛福部統計拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品,2022年1971件,2023年2903件。」這是你們統計資料嗎?上個禮拜提供的。法務部那裡為什麼只有692件跟767件?\n\n06:19.609 --> 06:41.771\n違反36條的到地方法院一審判決的件數590跟688我現在不懂你們統計數據以2023年為例明明就是拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品就違反兒少剝削條例的第36條的\n\n06:43.473 --> 06:54.118\n你們統計是2900件為什麼到法務部地檢署偵查終結的人數是767件起訴了498767裡面起訴498為什麼落差這麼大衛福部的統計是有來做申訴通報的\n\n07:11.104 --> 07:30.209\n案件室。」那請問這個是告訴來論罪嗎?兒少不是。對啊。那為什麼來這裡做申訴?你們有沒有這個移送法辦的義務?有啊。有啊。來,檢查單,地檢署。地檢署誰來?法務部啊。哦,檢查師來。好,來。市長。郭市長。\n\n07:34.700 --> 07:45.384\n兩千九百件到法務部地檢署辦理偵查終結人數剩下七百六十七人\n\n07:55.780 --> 08:24.526\n跟委員報告因為我們是地檢署說案是以被告的人數做計算我們不曉得衛福部這邊過來的是一個統計基準你們是用被害人他也是人數啊我們是被告人數被告這個又不是告訴哪一論罪這公訴罪每一件每一個人數每一個個案當然會有可能是一件數個人啦但是但是\n\n08:25.734 --> 08:53.953\n到最後怎麼會大幅縮水也不至於大幅縮水縮水所以如果照你所說是每一個人都拍了好多個喔每一個人拍了五個四個喔每一個都是犯罪行為是累犯而且不斷的在重重複犯罪的根委員報告一個被告他可能有很多的一個被害人所以在統計上面衛務部過來所以這些人都很可惡喔好來沒關係那法院來\n\n08:55.222 --> 09:12.158\n今天是司法院副庭長每個人如你所說受害人都很多人的話到地方法院一審裁判件數含無罪的含無罪的767人到最後是688件\n\n09:21.581 --> 09:45.407\n含無罪的這數量也少了767變成688這可能原因是什麼?是委員好跟委員報告我們法院裁判依照這個兒少腺波穴防治條例36條我們的統計數字是確實是688沒有錯我知道啦我在問你說為什麼從767變成688692變成590\n\n09:52.383 --> 10:17.599\n都少了很多欸對阿為什麼因為這裡面還含無罪的也在裡面每個案件怎麼到一集一集上去人數也少了這為什麼阿我現在在問你們阿我跟委員報告我的了解是我們這邊的688是指裁判的件數\n\n10:19.541 --> 10:34.069\n就是說我們說檢察官起訴之後法院經過法院裁判的件數是688那我知道了OK那司法院你先回去了現在我要問法務部下一張這個表格為什麼我講這個呢\n\n10:35.885 --> 11:02.174\n可以看得出來2019年到2023年違反兒少性剝削條例的案件數是不斷的增加108年是215件到112年是767件可是在這種案件逐年增加裡面我們非常不了解的是起訴率從2019年的76.3的起訴率到現在下降逐年下降到64.9\n\n11:03.695 --> 11:08.117\n主年下降,76.3變成67.3變成63.4變成62.3最後變成64.9還起訴的比例其實主年上升從108年的2.3%的還起訴到現在是4.0不起訴的比例也是主年在攀升10.2的不起訴到18.5\n\n11:31.543 --> 11:33.808\n難道是警察辦案每一件都瑕疵這麼多嗎?為什麼這樣子?這個數據和人民的情感和社會的觀感和我們輿論的觀察\n\n11:42.540 --> 12:09.869\n差很大我發現我們移送了這麼多然後呢起訴率在下降還起訴率和不起訴率在增加這是為什麼你也解釋給我聽看看跟我們人民的觀感是相反的跟委員報告檢察官不管是起訴不起訴還起訴其實都是個案上他的一個證據判斷這個部分我們必須那我可不這麼認為我舉黃子佼的案例來看他無故持有\n\n12:10.789 --> 12:38.360\n那他這個東西是緩起訴緩起訴你們的理由是說他是出犯而且避免受害女子在審判過程要受到二度傷害決定給予緩起訴而不是輕重但是因為社會輿論之後你們現在才要求這個以未完備偵查所以要再去刑偵查我的意思是說我們就去年修法後就持有就要刻以刑責了\n\n12:39.500 --> 12:50.946\n可是沒有用!我們才持有七部耶!我們修法去年修法一月就修好了!修法的目的就是要針對持有的人一定要刻意行責!這個是我們社會的共識、立法院的共識而修好的法!你們檢察署\n\n13:01.178 --> 13:24.574\n你們這個地檢署那個哪一個,台北地檢署你們讓立法院的修法讓社會的輿論淪為笑話把它從行政法變成刑法結果你辦這個高度社會矚目的案件而且是一個持有七部兒少未成年兒少性剝削影像的人你給他變成說還起訴\n\n13:26.946 --> 13:47.966\n所以你說為什麼不起訴率降不起訴率提高還起訴率也提高比例還上升你看第檢署辦理違反兒少法第39條的無辜持有的因為是去年才修法嘛所以你來看38件起訴了38人起訴6人還起訴8人不起訴23人\n\n13:53.192 --> 14:11.802\n這個是法律修得不好還是法律警察機關執法的時候過程沒有專業能力還是你們地檢署在辦案的時候輕輕放下連黃子佼這種高度社會矚目只有七步而且剛修法完高度社會矚目你們都還可以還起訴然後硬要跟社會對幹我這到底是什麼原因啊\n\n14:19.431 --> 14:37.415\n還是跟委員說明緩起訴其實就檢察官認定上緩起訴還是最顯重大在檢察官心裡他還是一個犯罪行為那至於個案他到底我們當然知道啦緩起訴的加緩起訴的相加緩起訴加不起訴的31件38件他們兩個加起來\n\n14:41.716 --> 14:47.281\n全部38件起訴才6件起訴加還起訴你認為還起訴還是犯罪樣態嗎?6加8還是小於不起訴的23\n\n14:52.435 --> 15:16.441\n但是跟委員報告因為個案上都是以證據來認定他有所以我問你啊是警察機關大家都講修法啊重重量刑啊行政法改成刑法啊現在還要加入這個付付費對價關攔這種也要入刑法啊可是土法只有這個法有辦法法律也定了也修了也增訂了\n\n15:18.485 --> 15:19.808\n是你們檢查地檢署的問題?還是警察機關有問題,連辦案的專業能力都沒有啊?\n\n15:29.560 --> 15:48.625\n跟委員報告其實我們可以提升這個徵收的量能那這中間當然還涉及到有關於一些科技偵查方法還是因為沒有這個工具法案還是在立法院在行政院研議中那所以39條是無故持有一定是查到你的電腦裡面已經有\n\n15:50.626 --> 16:06.489\n有影像了,什麼徵收工具,這種東西才要移送,結果你們還是給他不起訴,一定是電腦裡面或是家裡面收到,不管是DVD或是主機裡面下載的,一定是有了,才會叫無辜持有,結果到你們那裡是還起訴加不起訴,\n\n16:14.631 --> 16:25.598\n林委員,時間的關係,是不是等於請司長再做一個說明?主席,我再講一下,這你講不清楚,我告訴你,這真的是真正的問題,警察的專案辦案的年齡不足,然後在檢訴裡面,對這種的看法認為說可以還起訴的還起訴,連黃子椒高度社會矚目,違反我們社會的共識的,你們也敢還起訴了?\n\n16:41.127 --> 17:08.298\n所以這個才是大問題來我再問一下就是說我們柯總召臉書剛有一篇叫死刑是否違憲裡面講到立法者或造法者都應該要自我省失法律應該反映國民的正當法律感情不可以無視於民意更不應該以精英思維專斷主張以精英式的獨斷決定凌駕於民意共識之上不僅會對社會造成衝擊\n\n17:10.499 --> 17:22.131\n與割裂,更不利於我國的民主發展,所以立法者本於立法的職權,修法反映了國民正當的法律感情回憶名義,而司法院\n\n17:24.308 --> 17:40.127\n從警察、從地檢署、現在到司法院法官現在動輒以刑法第59條刑法第59條司法院來看一下因為等一下還要處理臨時提案我知道主席這個案子難道\n\n17:40.848 --> 17:43.870\n不能稍微再談一下嗎?這個案子有被討論過嗎?我們在這裡第一次討論我們現在講說這個地方法院刑事一審訴訟被告違反性剝削第36條裁判結果就是從地檢署裡面已經起訴的然後送進去法院你自己看\n\n18:00.620 --> 18:01.321\n從行政法修法以來,第39條\n\n18:23.641 --> 18:30.468\n三十九條他的裁判件數是零當然理由很多啦\n\n18:32.490 --> 18:57.140\n起訴的六件結果裁判數字是零沒有判的結果,那就39條但是我們現在要看第36條第36條你起訴了,好不容易起訴了,送到地方法院去地方法院法官動輒就說可以服,其請可免啊大家給他動用刑法第59條減輕其這個刑度的\n\n19:03.243 --> 19:19.011\n1080、254件的案件動用了第59條減刑的有46件到去年671件大家都知道案件數逐年成長然後到去年給它動用減刑條例的超過三分之一是274件比例\n\n19:23.258 --> 19:34.248\n檢刑不斷的大家修法要從重結果在法院的判刑是每年递增的在使用檢刑條例從2019年的18%到一年上升到隔年是28%的檢刑再到110年是32%的檢刑到111年\n\n19:46.539 --> 20:12.235\n這種利用兒少製造影片然後在這種大家講要加重期刑的時候他還不斷地減刑到去年減刑的比例高達41%委員我們是不是到這個主條的時候我們再來討論這跟主條有什麼相關這個我講的叫土法不足以自刑嘛我們今天在這裡立法院重重重演主條再加嚴\n\n20:14.036 --> 20:39.371\n可是司法院、地檢署、到警政單位這種辦案的態度這種不斷的檢刑然後還起訴不起訴這樣下去的話這個傷害國民情感然後在這裡讓立法院的修法淪為笑話好啦,我就就是說這樣,寶丁你最後有什麼話要說的,你敢不敢\n\n20:41.079 --> 20:47.861\n主席,我們開會都很早就結束了,我們可以開會開到下午五點,以前的衛生委員會開會都開到下午五點啦。二輪,第二輪,第二輪發言我可以等,我現在可以結束我第二輪發言,登記。\n\n21:09.369 --> 21:34.554\n還是給部長說了算就好了?這就是牽涉到我們的整個司法制度我剛剛講的有沒有道理?是不是問題?也是一個問題之所在,但是真正的背後的原因可能還要再更深入的去分析、了解\n\n21:35.492 --> 21:54.265\n分析原因,大家在這裡雙手一攤束手無策,結果犯罪樣態、犯罪的案件數、犯罪的量不斷地增加,受害者未成年的一直增加,成年的也一直增加,然後成為台灣國家的國際形象受損,然後受害的人民越來越多。」\n\n21:55.226 --> 22:13.130\n可能這一個,比如說剛剛委員提到的這一個用刑法59條來減刑的比例之所以會上升的話是不是我們立法立得不合我們法律立得有問題一定有它的原因在這還是需要再進一步去\n\n22:13.510 --> 22:33.999\n不是啊,我們立法要構成要件明確性、罪責相當性、橫平性我們的立法有問題才讓法官這樣子動輒就啟動59條的減刑條款嗎?是我們立法院的立法有問題嗎?否則法官為什麼每個人四成的人都要減刑囉?好啦,謝謝啦,回去討論一下\n\n22:43.800 --> 22:48.882\n和社會福利及衛生環境委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.961,"end":12.085,"text":"主席各位大家午安,是不是還是請我們這個薛部長請薛部長委員好"},{"start":19.899,"end":32.025,"text":"部長,我們這個兒少性剝削的這個防治條例其實現在大家去年1月就修好了現在才回過頭才發現說支付關攬、支付對價關攬這個犯罪樣態根本沒有放進去"},{"start":37.487,"end":39.147,"text":"全體委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、"},{"start":59.852,"end":81.625,"text":"開刀房裡面的病人被偷拍所以我們現在很高度的關注是因為性影像的拍攝、製造、偷拍等等很多這種對人權侵犯、對人身侵犯程度來講相當高的這種樣態其實都是以販賣盈利散播為目的"},{"start":82.765,"end":108.826,"text":"所以他們動輒到時候承認的時候說這是我自己想要拍下來留念自己觀看其實我們都開始覺得說背後很不單純所以由此可知以性犯罪的樣態來製作這個性影像的網頁網站或盈利行為應該非常嚴重就像我上一次就說的美國就有一個調查"},{"start":109.346,"end":114.67,"text":"美國這個兒童性剝削通報系統的統計發現從2019到2022美方偵測兒少性剝削影像來自臺灣IP的通報數量成長2.3倍從3萬到7萬所以凸顯了性剝削影像近年在臺灣的氾濫程度而現在我們要講的是不只是未成年兒少的影像"},{"start":135.003,"end":163.405,"text":"包括成年人的這個性犯罪影像都是以這類的樣態為居多所以我們真的想台灣到底是怎麼了怎麼了那我也上次也講說土法不足以自刑你們今天大家都講很多但我為什麼要講大家都把責任丟到立法院來立委你要不要加重其刑立法院你要不要加重其刑土法只有加重土刑"},{"start":164.366,"end":192.264,"text":"無效啊!這就不是跟立法院說的叫行動會寫得高的我現在為什麼講說修法可以阻嚇這個犯罪嗎?要有一些技術方面的資源才有可能啦技術方面的資源你講的意思好像是講警政署但因為今天警政委員而已所以我也就我就算了跟他們講在這裡也無效現在"},{"start":194.165,"end":200.449,"text":"一個警政委員隨時等著要外派出去當官的而已,當地方警政單位的局長而已,所以我就不講了,但是我們講說你說要技術上的資源,"},{"start":209.355,"end":225.186,"text":"去年11月8日婦女救援基金會在《婦女和性別議題的政策研討論壇》當中就說性影像聯防的四個法修訂後的建議不是只有法律修訂啊他在講偵辦人員就是警政單位的偵辦人員相關經費器材不足偵辦困難且耗時間沒有跨縣市的專責人力都是多項都是監辦而且沒有專責人力都是這個監辦以外連專責單位也沒有"},{"start":239.455,"end":265.821,"text":"副、右、對的偵辦經費也很少然後專業的網路人員經驗傳承也沒有辦法因為這個很多第一線的承辦人員他們對法律的認識和適用有待加強等等啦包括網路偵查這個境外的網路要下架對散佈匿名行為的人要起訴定罪這個在技術上都很難以外"},{"start":267.101,"end":291.442,"text":"在2021年臺灣公共行政和公共事務所聯合會暨國際學術研導會的議程裏面他們討論到兒童及少年性剝削防治機制的現況與困境與對策裏面也一再的講專業辦案的專業能力仍有不足的地方而且警察機關跟網路業者的協調合作機制未完善化而且"},{"start":292.924,"end":303.275,"text":"網路兒少遭受性剝削犯罪的犯案手段推陳出新不義防治違反兒少性剝削防治條例的量刑低起訴也低"},{"start":307.363,"end":334.415,"text":"那我現在在講說到底有多低?到底量刑有多低?起訴率到底有多低?圖法不足以自行,你這個修法到底有沒有用?從去年才大修過,我們就比較一下去年1月通過,2月15號施行新的,就是增加了39條,連無故持有都要從行政法變成刑法"},{"start":335.555,"end":351.955,"text":"那36條的使兒童或少年被拍攝自拍或製造性影像這個提高的行程從3年到7年變成3年到10年嗎那我現在看第一個表格我現在不懂因為你們上個禮拜來報告"},{"start":354.421,"end":362.506,"text":"衛福部統計拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品,2022年1971件,2023年2903件。」這是你們統計資料嗎?上個禮拜提供的。法務部那裡為什麼只有692件跟767件?"},{"start":379.609,"end":401.771,"text":"違反36條的到地方法院一審判決的件數590跟688我現在不懂你們統計數據以2023年為例明明就是拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品就違反兒少剝削條例的第36條的"},{"start":403.473,"end":414.118,"text":"你們統計是2900件為什麼到法務部地檢署偵查終結的人數是767件起訴了498767裡面起訴498為什麼落差這麼大衛福部的統計是有來做申訴通報的"},{"start":431.104,"end":450.209,"text":"案件室。」那請問這個是告訴來論罪嗎?兒少不是。對啊。那為什麼來這裡做申訴?你們有沒有這個移送法辦的義務?有啊。有啊。來,檢查單,地檢署。地檢署誰來?法務部啊。哦,檢查師來。好,來。市長。郭市長。"},{"start":454.7,"end":465.384,"text":"兩千九百件到法務部地檢署辦理偵查終結人數剩下七百六十七人"},{"start":475.78,"end":504.526,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們是地檢署說案是以被告的人數做計算我們不曉得衛福部這邊過來的是一個統計基準你們是用被害人他也是人數啊我們是被告人數被告這個又不是告訴哪一論罪這公訴罪每一件每一個人數每一個個案當然會有可能是一件數個人啦但是但是"},{"start":505.734,"end":533.953,"text":"到最後怎麼會大幅縮水也不至於大幅縮水縮水所以如果照你所說是每一個人都拍了好多個喔每一個人拍了五個四個喔每一個都是犯罪行為是累犯而且不斷的在重重複犯罪的根委員報告一個被告他可能有很多的一個被害人所以在統計上面衛務部過來所以這些人都很可惡喔好來沒關係那法院來"},{"start":535.222,"end":552.158,"text":"今天是司法院副庭長每個人如你所說受害人都很多人的話到地方法院一審裁判件數含無罪的含無罪的767人到最後是688件"},{"start":561.581,"end":585.407,"text":"含無罪的這數量也少了767變成688這可能原因是什麼?是委員好跟委員報告我們法院裁判依照這個兒少腺波穴防治條例36條我們的統計數字是確實是688沒有錯我知道啦我在問你說為什麼從767變成688692變成590"},{"start":592.383,"end":617.599,"text":"都少了很多欸對阿為什麼因為這裡面還含無罪的也在裡面每個案件怎麼到一集一集上去人數也少了這為什麼阿我現在在問你們阿我跟委員報告我的了解是我們這邊的688是指裁判的件數"},{"start":619.541,"end":634.069,"text":"就是說我們說檢察官起訴之後法院經過法院裁判的件數是688那我知道了OK那司法院你先回去了現在我要問法務部下一張這個表格為什麼我講這個呢"},{"start":635.885,"end":662.174,"text":"可以看得出來2019年到2023年違反兒少性剝削條例的案件數是不斷的增加108年是215件到112年是767件可是在這種案件逐年增加裡面我們非常不了解的是起訴率從2019年的76.3的起訴率到現在下降 逐年下降到64.9"},{"start":663.695,"end":668.117,"text":"主年下降,76.3變成67.3變成63.4變成62.3最後變成64.9還起訴的比例其實主年上升從108年的2.3%的還起訴到現在是4.0不起訴的比例也是主年在攀升10.2的不起訴到18.5"},{"start":691.543,"end":693.808,"text":"難道是警察辦案每一件都瑕疵這麼多嗎?為什麼這樣子?這個數據和人民的情感和社會的觀感和我們輿論的觀察"},{"start":702.54,"end":729.869,"text":"差很大我發現我們移送了這麼多然後呢起訴率在下降還起訴率和不起訴率在增加這是為什麼你也解釋給我聽看看跟我們人民的觀感是相反的跟委員報告檢察官不管是起訴不起訴還起訴其實都是個案上他的一個證據判斷這個部分我們必須那我可不這麼認為我舉黃子佼的案例來看他無故持有"},{"start":730.789,"end":758.36,"text":"那他這個東西是緩起訴緩起訴你們的理由是說他是出犯而且避免受害女子在審判過程要受到二度傷害決定給予緩起訴而不是輕重但是因為社會輿論之後你們現在才要求這個以未完備偵查所以要再去刑偵查我的意思是說我們就去年修法後就持有就要刻以刑責了"},{"start":759.5,"end":770.946,"text":"可是沒有用!我們才持有七部耶!我們修法去年修法一月就修好了!修法的目的就是要針對持有的人一定要刻意行責!這個是我們社會的共識、立法院的共識而修好的法!你們檢察署"},{"start":781.178,"end":804.574,"text":"你們這個地檢署那個哪一個,台北地檢署你們讓立法院的修法讓社會的輿論淪為笑話把它從行政法變成刑法結果你辦這個高度社會矚目的案件而且是一個持有七部兒少未成年兒少性剝削影像的人你給他變成說還起訴"},{"start":806.946,"end":827.966,"text":"所以你說為什麼不起訴率降不起訴率提高還起訴率也提高比例還上升你看第檢署辦理違反兒少法第39條的無辜持有的因為是去年才修法嘛所以你來看38件起訴了38人起訴6人還起訴8人不起訴23人"},{"start":833.192,"end":851.802,"text":"這個是法律修得不好還是法律警察機關執法的時候過程沒有專業能力還是你們地檢署在辦案的時候輕輕放下連黃子佼這種高度社會矚目只有七步而且剛修法完高度社會矚目你們都還可以還起訴然後硬要跟社會對幹我這到底是什麼原因啊"},{"start":859.431,"end":877.415,"text":"還是跟委員說明緩起訴其實就檢察官認定上緩起訴還是最顯重大在檢察官心裡他還是一個犯罪行為那至於個案他到底我們當然知道啦緩起訴的加緩起訴的相加緩起訴加不起訴的31件38件他們兩個加起來"},{"start":881.716,"end":887.281,"text":"全部38件起訴才6件起訴加還起訴你認為還起訴還是犯罪樣態嗎?6加8還是小於不起訴的23"},{"start":892.435,"end":916.441,"text":"但是跟委員報告因為個案上都是以證據來認定他有所以我問你啊是警察機關大家都講修法啊重重量刑啊行政法改成刑法啊現在還要加入這個付付費對價關攔這種也要入刑法啊可是土法只有這個法有辦法法律也定了也修了也增訂了"},{"start":918.485,"end":919.808,"text":"是你們檢查地檢署的問題?還是警察機關有問題,連辦案的專業能力都沒有啊?"},{"start":929.56,"end":948.625,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們可以提升這個徵收的量能那這中間當然還涉及到有關於一些科技偵查方法還是因為沒有這個工具法案還是在立法院在行政院研議中那所以39條是無故持有一定是查到你的電腦裡面已經有"},{"start":950.626,"end":966.489,"text":"有影像了,什麼徵收工具,這種東西才要移送,結果你們還是給他不起訴,一定是電腦裡面或是家裡面收到,不管是DVD或是主機裡面下載的,一定是有了,才會叫無辜持有,結果到你們那裡是還起訴加不起訴,"},{"start":974.631,"end":985.598,"text":"林委員,時間的關係,是不是等於請司長再做一個說明?主席,我再講一下,這你講不清楚,我告訴你,這真的是真正的問題,警察的專案辦案的年齡不足,然後在檢訴裡面,對這種的看法認為說可以還起訴的還起訴,連黃子椒高度社會矚目,違反我們社會的共識的,你們也敢還起訴了?"},{"start":1001.127,"end":1028.298,"text":"所以這個才是大問題來我再問一下就是說我們柯總召臉書剛有一篇叫死刑是否違憲裡面講到立法者或造法者都應該要自我省失法律應該反映國民的正當法律感情不可以無視於民意更不應該以精英思維專斷主張以精英式的獨斷決定凌駕於民意共識之上不僅會對社會造成衝擊"},{"start":1030.499,"end":1042.131,"text":"與割裂,更不利於我國的民主發展,所以立法者本於立法的職權,修法反映了國民正當的法律感情回憶名義,而司法院"},{"start":1044.308,"end":1060.127,"text":"從警察、從地檢署、現在到司法院法官現在動輒以刑法第59條刑法第59條司法院來看一下因為等一下還要處理臨時提案我知道主席這個案子難道"},{"start":1060.848,"end":1063.87,"text":"不能稍微再談一下嗎?這個案子有被討論過嗎?我們在這裡第一次討論我們現在講說這個地方法院刑事一審訴訟被告違反性剝削第36條裁判結果就是從地檢署裡面已經起訴的然後送進去法院你自己看"},{"start":1080.62,"end":1081.321,"text":"從行政法修法以來,第39條"},{"start":1103.641,"end":1110.468,"text":"三十九條他的裁判件數是零當然理由很多啦"},{"start":1112.49,"end":1137.14,"text":"起訴的六件結果裁判數字是零沒有判的結果,那就39條但是我們現在要看第36條第36條你起訴了,好不容易起訴了,送到地方法院去地方法院法官動輒就說可以服,其請可免啊大家給他動用刑法第59條減輕其這個刑度的"},{"start":1143.243,"end":1159.011,"text":"1080、254件的案件動用了第59條減刑的有46件到去年671件大家都知道案件數逐年成長然後到去年給它動用減刑條例的超過三分之一是274件比例"},{"start":1163.258,"end":1174.248,"text":"檢刑不斷的大家修法要從重結果在法院的判刑是每年递增的在使用檢刑條例從2019年的18%到一年上升到隔年是28%的檢刑再到110年是32%的檢刑到111年"},{"start":1186.539,"end":1212.235,"text":"這種利用兒少製造影片然後在這種大家講要加重期刑的時候他還不斷地減刑到去年減刑的比例高達41%委員我們是不是到這個主條的時候我們再來討論這跟主條有什麼相關這個我講的叫土法不足以自刑嘛我們今天在這裡立法院重重重演主條再加嚴"},{"start":1214.036,"end":1239.371,"text":"可是司法院、地檢署、到警政單位這種辦案的態度這種不斷的檢刑然後還起訴不起訴這樣下去的話這個傷害國民情感然後在這裡讓立法院的修法淪為笑話好啦,我就就是說這樣,寶丁你最後有什麼話要說的,你敢不敢"},{"start":1241.079,"end":1247.861,"text":"主席,我們開會都很早就結束了,我們可以開會開到下午五點,以前的衛生委員會開會都開到下午五點啦。二輪,第二輪,第二輪發言我可以等,我現在可以結束我第二輪發言,登記。"},{"start":1269.369,"end":1294.554,"text":"還是給部長說了算就好了?這就是牽涉到我們的整個司法制度我剛剛講的有沒有道理?是不是問題?也是一個問題之所在,但是真正的背後的原因可能還要再更深入的去分析、了解"},{"start":1295.492,"end":1314.265,"text":"分析原因,大家在這裡雙手一攤束手無策,結果犯罪樣態、犯罪的案件數、犯罪的量不斷地增加,受害者未成年的一直增加,成年的也一直增加,然後成為台灣國家的國際形象受損,然後受害的人民越來越多。」"},{"start":1315.226,"end":1333.13,"text":"可能這一個,比如說剛剛委員提到的這一個用刑法59條來減刑的比例之所以會上升的話是不是我們立法立得不合我們法律立得有問題一定有它的原因在這還是需要再進一步去"},{"start":1333.51,"end":1353.999,"text":"不是啊,我們立法要構成要件明確性、罪責相當性、橫平性我們的立法有問題才讓法官這樣子動輒就啟動59條的減刑條款嗎?是我們立法院的立法有問題嗎?否則法官為什麼每個人四成的人都要減刑囉?好啦,謝謝啦,回去討論一下"},{"start":1363.8,"end":1368.882,"text":"和社會福利及衛生環境委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會"}]}}}}