{"id":151666,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb30d8c3326d870ade27e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b8443285ef96e8213ea40c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:26:27 - 11:40:44","影片長度":"00:14:17","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-16"},"duration":857,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:40:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:26:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時26分）我們請司法院秘書長、法務部長。"],["主席：有請吳秘書長，還有蔡部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：這邊我先就教部長。部長，我想我們都很清楚，檢察官工作的核心是內勤、外勤，開庭、寫書類，我今天收到一個報告，每個檢察官目前的收案量是110件，我想部長應該知道這個狀況吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：偵、他、相案，因為我們只統計這些比較重要的。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是各種，包括其他這些案件，加起來大概110件。我們就來講偵字案件，偵字案件，我想桃園地檢跟新北地檢常常月收都是超過100件，我想部長應該很清楚這個狀況。我跟部長報告一下，我們當年分發的時候，我在民國90年分發的時候，我記得那個時候我看到的報表，一個月偵案是三十幾件，現在的話已經變成這個數字。我離開檢方是在民國109年，但是從108年到去年的數據，以新收案件來說，全國的新收案件漲了47%。也就是這四年多裡面，全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%，這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了，房價是七年百分之九十幾，檢方的案件是四年多漲了47%，我想這已經到了一個完全不合理的的狀況了。一個案子，我想我們都知道，他必須要開庭，從收案、開庭、訊問，然後要寫書類，要去思考，也就是說，這樣平均下來一個案子，如果每一天超時工作到12個小時的話，3個小時才能結掉一件，對不對？這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷了？更何況有很多案子，我們講一個簡單的，你說酒醉駕車，那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單，但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考的，更多人民之間的糾紛，其實那個都沒有那麼容易。所以每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦，部長，這部分你有什麼想法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我同意委員的看法，因為數字它只是平均而已，其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的，有的案子有時候需要好幾年，也可能要辦了很久，要問過數百人後才能夠結案，有一些是分案以後，很簡單的例稿填一填就可以結案，所以不能純粹看數字，這個我可以體會。"],["吳委員宗憲：我之前處理過一個貪污案件，那個案件一個案子裡面是有好多位官員，然後有十幾個廠商，被告到最後超過20個，我書類寫了一個多禮拜，然後一百多頁，而這個也是一個案子。所以到最後會不會變成檢察官或法官，他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子，或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子簡易化，這個我認為是這很重要的一件事情。","其實這幾年大家常常在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官，就像我剛剛說的，一個案子我們要閱卷、開庭、調資料，還要寫書類，這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵，因為我知道問題出在哪裡。大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官，但是我跟各位說明一件事情，就好像記者一天只能寫2個稿，我要你今天一天寫出10個稿，你寫出來的東西，品質就會出問題；一樣，用工廠來看好了，如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法，一個月生產30套設備，我叫大家不睡覺、不休息、不陪家人，一個月生產能夠「弓」到60套設備，但是今天老闆叫你生產到120套設備呢？出來的品質良率就變很差。今天我看到的司法是這樣，所以與其大家一直罵說司法有問題、司法怎麼樣，你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境？發生了什麼事情？就像我們去看醫生，我們覺得醫生應該跟我問診問10分鐘，結果沒有啊，人越來越多，剩5分鐘，到最後你現在去看診，有的1分鐘就請你出去了，那你能夠看到什麼？今天我們一直說法官、檢察官有問題，腦子有問題，結果你弄錯了，是你給他的數字出了問題，結果東西出來一塌糊塗！","我必須講一個，我一直覺得，當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足，但是我想跟各位說一句話──笨蛋！問題在制度！真的是制度出了問題！尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議，其實是把制度改得更複雜、更亂，所以不要跟我說司法改革成功！司法改革成功與否？為什麼這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到走不下去了？或者是人民的滿意度越來越低？所以不要跟我說司法改革成功。就像我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重，但是司法院就是要硬推，也不去管到底裡面發生了什麼問題。你認為所有的改革都是為了保障人權，但是說真的，我看到了一堆東西只是複雜化原本的制度。當年的司改會議，當然有部分是司法專業人員，但是這麼高專業度的制度修改，你卻讓非常多非法律的人，你可能找很多社運團體來這邊，每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面，然後要求制度修改。但是制度跟制度，制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣，所以很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年、50年才慢慢轉換，結果我們這邊竟然是二個月的會議開完全國大改，難怪到今天越改，司法官累得半死，司法官累到人生這條路走不下去！然後累到現在是戰力最強的檢察官、法官一堆人離職，到最後我們補了很多新人，他們經驗還需要慢慢培養，補了很多新人進來，案件量越來越多，回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛！我要跟各位報告，你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度，結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任，這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況，累死了一堆法官、檢察官！","我們一路這樣走過來，我看得很清楚，現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了。我們以前剛出來很好運，我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理，我還有時間去學怎麼辦案，怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法警察相處，怎麼樣帶領他們辦案。現在新分發的，我去跟他們聊天，每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類，每天都在加班看卷，完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事，結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節，他們辦案的功力越來越弱，他們出來的書類品質越來越差，他們開庭的時間越來越短，結果司法的品質就越來越差，就變成了今天這個樣子。我今天是很沉痛地點出我們司法的問題在這裡，我覺得這個是制度面的問題，真的是制度面的問題。","接下來還有兵役延長為一年所衍生的部分，兵役延長為一年之後，這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院，這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量！所以所有的東西就是一直不停地加重、加重、再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量。","這個制度的問題，麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦？因為基層不會把聲音告訴長官們，長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法，但是我是一路基層做了20年，所有現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官同學們，他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼。講一個例子，二十幾年前要改交互詰問制度，去美國抄了一套交互詰問制度來，結果呢？有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊，很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是事實審，但我們的事實審搞了二個審級，同一套制度玩了二遍，消耗多少人力、物力，害當事人花了多少錢請律師，我們都不管，這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎？你抄人家的制度，人家是一個審級的事實審就要審理完畢，上訴二審有非常多的限制，甚至我們有學者把它歸類為我們的法律審了，叫做三審的法律審，結果我們同一套制度玩二遍，那個意義在哪裡？","這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料，甚至我也說，譬如說緩起訴處分職權送再議的意義在哪？我從數據上面來看是一點價值都沒有，但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官。一樣，就法官而言，刑事訴訟二審肥大症就把二審搞慘了，因為我們上訴有審級利益的問題，所以被告上訴完全沒有什麼成本，他想上訴就上訴，搞得二審案件一大堆，法官累的半死。","我希望將來該除罪的就把它除罪化，對人民沒有任何意義的東西就把它除罪化。還有司法院是不是能夠再健全一些中低收入戶的訴訟保障後，然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準，讓有錢人使用法院應該多交一點錢，但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分，讓沒有錢的人也可以享受訴訟。另外，假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費？不要讓檢察官、法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團，我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢，我想部長一定很清楚，這是檢察官心裡的痛。還有妨害司法公正是不是應該要趕快把它建立起來。","部長，我講到這個議題，我自己心裡是感觸很深，畢竟我是這樣子走過來的，我現在身邊的好朋友、以前的同學也幾乎都還是法官、檢察官，我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話，部長或秘書長有沒有什麼想法？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員指教。委員是基層檢察官出身的，我本人也是，所以我非常瞭解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境，我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決，不但是在爭取人力，而且在案件怎麼樣簡化，包括我們書類不要用太多的敘述方式，能夠用格式化的方式來處理，還有工作環境的改善，我都是盡我最大的努力來完成。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，謝謝部長。秘書長？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員這些提示，我們都會加以來……"],["吳委員宗憲：我想我剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已，只是我臨時想到的。","最後30秒我講一個，選前有所謂的中共介選疑似違反國安五法，這個部分傳了很多里長，現在開始很多不起訴都出來了，我預測將來很多大量的無罪案例會出來。我不是說這種案子一定不應該辦，而是很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官、法官是拿不到的，可能在中國那邊，所以這種案子是不是要這樣子大規模的這麼處理，搞得人心惶惶？之所以在這裡講到這點，是因為這同樣造成警察、調查官、法官、檢察官大量的工作量，檢察官可能要偵辦、要起訴，法官可能要核發搜索票，案件量都因為這些政治的問題增加很多。我希望政治的手不要介入司法，因為我跟很多基層的同仁、跟調查官私下吃飯的時候聊天，我說你們幹嘛幹這個，他們跟我說沒辦法，上面有交代。這些是基層跟我講的，是好朋友跟我講的，我比較相信是真的，我不相信官方上面的說法。不好意思耽誤大家和主席這麼多時間，謝謝各位！"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄代）：我擔任主席比較慈悲，都隨便你們說。","接下來請陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","林思銘","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","賴士葆","傅崐萁"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運\n用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151666","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"p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00:00:39,733\n那部長我想說齁大家我們都很清楚檢察官工作的核心是內勤外勤、開庭、寫書類那我今天收到一個報告齁每個檢察官目前的說案量是110件我想部長應該知道這個狀況嘛真他鄉啦對對\n\n3\n00:00:44,514 --> 00:00:45,014\n我們當年分發的時候\n\n4\n00:01:11,821 --> 00:01:14,324\n我離開檢方是在民國109年但是108年到去年的這個數據以新收案件來說\n\n5\n00:01:33,044 --> 00:01:57,877\n全國的新收案件漲了47%也就是這4年多裡面全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了房價是7年90幾%嘛那檢方的案件是4年多漲了47%我想說這已經到一個完全不合理的狀況了那一個案子我想我們都知道\n\n6\n00:01:58,917 --> 00:02:22,097\n他必須要開庭他收案開庭訊問然後要寫書類要去思考也就是說這樣平均下來一個案子如果每一天超時工作12個小時的話3個小時才能結掉一件那這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷更何況有很多案子\n\n7\n00:02:23,220 --> 00:02:42,279\n我們講一個簡單的啦你說酒醉駕車那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考更多那個人民之間的糾紛其實那個都沒有那麼容易所以說每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦部長這個部分你有什麼想法\n\n8\n00:02:43,019 --> 00:02:53,191\n我同意委員的看法因為數字只是平均而已其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的有一個案子有時候需要好幾\n\n9\n00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:55,601\n我之前處理過一個貪污案件那個案件一個案子裡面是\n\n10\n00:03:18,894 --> 00:03:40,474\n有十幾個廠商被告到最後超過20個那我書類寫了一個多禮拜然後100多頁那這個也是一個案子所以說我們到最後會不會變成是檢察官或法官他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子去把它簡易化\n\n11\n00:03:41,535 --> 00:04:04,857\n這個我想說部長這很重要的一件事情其實這幾年啊大家常常在罵一個東西在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官那我們知道就像我剛說的一個案子我們要月卷開庭、調資料還要寫書類這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵因為我知道問題出在哪裡大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官但是我跟各位\n\n12\n00:04:06,088 --> 00:04:22,719\n說明一件事情就好像今天記者一天只能寫兩個稿我要你今天一天寫出十個稿你寫出來的東西品質就會出問題那一樣你用工廠來看好了如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法一個月生產30套設備\n\n13\n00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:50,216\n那我我叫大家不睡覺不休息不陪家人一個月生產能夠經到60號設備但是今天老闆叫你生產到120號設備呢你出來品質良率就變很差今天我看到的司法是這樣所以與其大家一直罵說你這司法有問題司法怎麼樣你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境你發生了什麼事情\n\n14\n00:04:51,414 --> 00:05:19,148\n我們就像我們去看醫生我們覺得看醫生醫生要跟我問診問10分鐘結果沒有啊人越來越多剩5分鐘到最後你現在去看診有1分鐘就請你出去了那你能夠看到什麼我們今天我們一直說法官檢察官有問題腦子有問題結果你弄錯了是你給他的數字出了問題結果東西出來一塌糊塗好我必須講一個啦齁\n\n15\n00:05:21,584 --> 00:05:48,669\n我一直覺得當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足但是我想跟各位說一句話笨蛋問題在制度真的是制度出了問題尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議其實他把制度改得更複雜更亂結果不要跟我說司法改革成功司法改革成功與否你看為什麼\n\n16\n00:05:50,184 --> 00:06:12,347\n這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到累到走不下去了或者是人民的滿意度越來越低你就不要跟我說司法改革成功我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重但是司法院你就是要硬推你也不去管到底\n\n17\n00:06:13,424 --> 00:06:13,444\n吳宗憲\n\n18\n00:06:29,716 --> 00:06:52,802\n高專業度的制度的修改你卻讓非常多非法律的人你可能找很多社運團體來這邊每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面然後要求制度修改但是制度跟制度制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣所以它很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年50年才慢慢有轉換結果我們這邊竟然是兩個月會議開完全國大改\n\n19\n00:06:56,623 --> 00:07:18,640\n難怪到今天越改司法官累了半死司法官累了人生這條路走不下去然後累到現在中間站立最強的檢察官法官一堆人離職然後到最後我們補了很多新人他們經驗還需要慢慢培養補了很多新人進來案件量越來越多回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛\n\n20\n00:07:19,941 --> 00:07:48,250\n那我要跟各位報告你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況那累死了一堆法官檢察官啦我們自己一路這樣走過來我自己看得很清楚啦現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了\n\n21\n00:07:49,229 --> 00:08:09,000\n我們以前剛出來很好運我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理我還有時間去學怎麼辦案怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法、警察相處怎麼樣帶領他們辦案現在新分發的我去跟他們聊天每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類每天都在加班看卷\n\n22\n00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:35,602\n他完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節他們辦案的功力越來越弱他們出來的書類品質越來越差他們開庭的時間越來越短就司法的品質就越來越差我覺得變成今天這樣子我今天我是很沉痛的點出我們司法今天的問題在這裡我覺得這個是制度面的問題啦我真的是\n\n23\n00:08:36,523 --> 00:08:58,809\n制度面的問題那當然接下來我們還有比喻延長一年比喻延長一年之後這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量所以所有的東西你就是一直不停的加重加重再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量\n\n24\n00:09:01,445 --> 00:09:28,525\n我想齁這個制度的問題麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦因為基層他不會把聲音告訴長官們長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法但是我是一路基層做了20年我所有我現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官、同學們他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼\n\n25\n00:09:31,583 --> 00:09:54,745\n講一個20幾年前要改交互結婚制度去美國抄了一套交互結婚制度來結果呢有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是40審結果我們40審搞了兩個審計同一套制度玩了兩遍消耗多少人力物力害當事人花了多少錢請律師我們都不管\n\n26\n00:09:56,241 --> 00:10:16,541\n這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎你抄人家的制度就人家認為一個省級40省就要把它審理完畢上述二省有非常多的限制我就說甚至我們有學者把它歸類它叫做我們的法律省了叫做三省的法律省就我們同一套制度玩兩遍那那個意義在哪裡\n\n27\n00:10:18,803 --> 00:10:31,802\n這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料啦那甚至我也說像譬如說職權緩起訴處分職權送災的意義在哪我從數據上面來看一點價值都沒有但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官\n\n28\n00:10:32,674 --> 00:10:54,724\n那一樣就法官而言法官刑事訴訟、二審肥大政就把二審搞慘了因為我們上訴有審計利益的問題所以被告上訴完全沒有什麼成本他想上訴就上訴搞得二審案件一大堆法官類的半死那我希望齁就是\n\n29\n00:10:55,794 --> 00:10:55,834\n主席\n\n30\n00:11:11,053 --> 00:11:38,614\n後然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準讓有錢人來使用法院應該多交一點錢但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分讓沒有錢的人也可以享受這個訴訟假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費不要讓檢察官法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團這我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢\n\n31\n00:11:40,476 --> 00:12:04,550\n這是大家我想部長一定很清楚這是大家檢察官心裡的痛還有妨礙司法公正是不是我們應該要趕快把它建立起來因為我講到這個議題我自己心裡是感觸很深因為畢竟我是這樣子走過來的那我現在身邊的好朋友也幾乎都還是法官檢察官以前的同學\n\n32\n00:12:06,656 --> 00:12:33,661\n我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話部長或部長有沒有什麼想法謝謝委員指教委員是基層檢察官出身的我本人也是所以我非常了解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境那我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決不但是在爭取能力而且在他案件的怎麼樣的簡化\n\n33\n00:12:35,541 --> 00:13:02,872\n包括我們書類不要用太多的這種敘述的方式能夠用格式化的方式來處理還有工作環境的改善我都是盡我最大的努力來完成謝謝部長部長委員這些提示我們都會加以來我想我剛剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已只是我這樣臨時想到了那最後30秒我講一個\n\n34\n00:13:05,772 --> 00:13:25,861\n選前就是我們這個所謂中共借選國安無法這個傳了很多里長那現在開始很多不起訴都出來了那我預測將來很多大量的無罪會出來我不是說這個案子這種案子一定不應該辦而是他很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官法官是拿不到他可能在\n\n35\n00:13:26,821 --> 00:13:27,961\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n\n36\n00:13:55,708 --> 00:13:56,349\n感謝主席的比例\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12641\t24792\t我們請司法院秘書長、法務部長有請吳秘書長還有蔡部長這邊我先就叫部長\n26363\t39733\t那部長我想說齁 大家我們都很清楚檢察官工作的核心是內勤外勤、開庭、寫書類那我今天收到一個報告齁每個檢察官目前的說案量是110件我想部長應該知道這個狀況嘛真他鄉啦對 對\n44514\t45014\t我們當年分發的時候\n71821\t74324\t我離開檢方是在民國109年但是108年到去年的這個數據以新收案件來說\n93044\t117877\t全國的新收案件漲了47%也就是這4年多裡面全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了房價是7年90幾%嘛那檢方的案件是4年多漲了47%我想說這已經到一個完全不合理的狀況了那一個案子我想我們都知道\n118917\t142097\t他必須要開庭他收案開庭訊問然後要寫書類要去思考也就是說這樣平均下來一個案子如果每一天超時工作12個小時的話3個小時才能結掉一件那這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷更何況有很多案子\n143220\t162279\t我們講一個簡單的啦你說酒醉駕車那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考更多那個人民之間的糾紛其實那個都沒有那麼容易所以說每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦部長這個部分你有什麼想法\n163019\t173191\t我同意委員的看法因為數字只是平均而已其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的有一個案子有時候需要好幾\n174480\t175601\t我之前處理過一個貪污案件那個案件一個案子裡面是\n198894\t220474\t有十幾個廠商被告到最後超過20個那我書類寫了一個多禮拜然後100多頁那這個也是一個案子所以說我們到最後會不會變成是檢察官或法官他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子去把它簡易化\n221535\t244857\t這個我想說部長這很重要的一件事情其實這幾年啊大家常常在罵一個東西在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官那我們知道就像我剛說的一個案子我們要月卷開庭、調資料還要寫書類這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵因為我知道問題出在哪裡大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官但是我跟各位\n246088\t262719\t說明一件事情就好像今天記者一天只能寫兩個稿我要你今天一天寫出十個稿你寫出來的東西品質就會出問題那一樣你用工廠來看好了如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法一個月生產30套設備\n264480\t290216\t那我我叫大家不睡覺不休息不陪家人一個月生產能夠經到60號設備但是今天老闆叫你生產到120號設備呢你出來品質良率就變很差今天我看到的司法是這樣所以與其大家一直罵說你這司法有問題司法怎麼樣你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境你發生了什麼事情\n291414\t319148\t我們就像我們去看醫生我們覺得看醫生醫生要跟我問診問10分鐘結果沒有啊人越來越多剩5分鐘到最後你現在去看診有1分鐘就請你出去了那你能夠看到什麼我們今天我們一直說法官檢察官有問題腦子有問題結果你弄錯了是你給他的數字出了問題結果東西出來一塌糊塗好我必須講一個啦齁\n321584\t348669\t我一直覺得當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足但是我想跟各位說一句話笨蛋問題在制度真的是制度出了問題尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議其實他把制度改得更複雜更亂結果不要跟我說司法改革成功司法改革成功與否你看為什麼\n350184\t372347\t這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到累到走不下去了或者是人民的滿意度越來越低你就不要跟我說司法改革成功我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重但是司法院你就是要硬推你也不去管到底\n373424\t373444\t吳宗憲\n389716\t412802\t高專業度的制度的修改你卻讓非常多非法律的人你可能找很多社運團體來這邊每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面然後要求制度修改但是制度跟制度制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣所以它很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年50年才慢慢有轉換結果我們這邊竟然是兩個月會議開完全國大改\n416623\t438640\t難怪到今天越改司法官累了半死司法官累了人生這條路走不下去然後累到現在中間站立最強的檢察官法官一堆人離職然後到最後我們補了很多新人他們經驗還需要慢慢培養補了很多新人進來案件量越來越多回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛\n439941\t468250\t那我要跟各位報告你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況那累死了一堆法官檢察官啦我們自己一路這樣走過來我自己看得很清楚啦現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了\n469229\t489000\t我們以前剛出來很好運我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理我還有時間去學怎麼辦案怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法、警察相處怎麼樣帶領他們辦案現在新分發的我去跟他們聊天每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類每天都在加班看卷\n489600\t515602\t他完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節他們辦案的功力越來越弱他們出來的書類品質越來越差他們開庭的時間越來越短就司法的品質就越來越差我覺得變成今天這樣子我今天我是很沉痛的點出我們司法今天的問題在這裡我覺得這個是制度面的問題啦我真的是\n516523\t538809\t制度面的問題那當然接下來我們還有比喻延長一年比喻延長一年之後這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量所以所有的東西你就是一直不停的加重加重再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量\n541445\t568525\t我想齁 這個制度的問題麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦因為基層他不會把聲音告訴長官們長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法但是我是一路基層做了20年我所有我現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官、同學們他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼\n571583\t594745\t講一個20幾年前要改交互結婚制度去美國抄了一套交互結婚制度來結果呢有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是40審結果我們40審搞了兩個審計同一套制度玩了兩遍消耗多少人力物力害當事人花了多少錢請律師我們都不管\n596241\t616541\t這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎你抄人家的制度就人家認為一個省級40省就要把它審理完畢上述二省有非常多的限制我就說甚至我們有學者把它歸類它叫做我們的法律省了叫做三省的法律省就我們同一套制度玩兩遍那那個意義在哪裡\n618803\t631802\t這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料啦那甚至我也說像譬如說職權緩起訴處分職權送災的意義在哪我從數據上面來看一點價值都沒有但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官\n632674\t654724\t那一樣就法官而言 法官刑事訴訟、二審肥大政就把二審搞慘了 因為我們上訴有審計利益的問題所以 被告上訴 完全沒有什麼成本 他想上訴就上訴搞得二審案件一大堆法官類的半死那 我希望齁 就是\n655794\t655834\t主席\n671053\t698614\t後然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準讓有錢人來使用法院應該多交一點錢但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分讓沒有錢的人也可以享受這個訴訟假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費不要讓檢察官法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團這我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢\n700476\t724550\t這是大家 我想部長一定很清楚這是大家檢察官心裡的痛還有妨礙司法公正是不是我們應該要趕快把它建立起來因為我講到這個議題我自己心裡是感觸很深因為畢竟我是這樣子走過來的那我現在身邊的好朋友也幾乎都還是法官檢察官以前的同學\n726656\t753661\t我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話部長或部長有沒有什麼想法謝謝委員指教委員是基層檢察官出身的我本人也是所以我非常了解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境那我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決不但是在爭取能力而且在他案件的怎麼樣的簡化\n755541\t782872\t包括我們書類不要用太多的這種敘述的方式能夠用格式化的方式來處理還有工作環境的改善我都是盡我最大的努力來完成謝謝部長部長委員這些提示我們都會加以來我想我剛剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已只是我這樣臨時想到了那最後30秒我講一個\n785772\t805861\t選前就是我們這個所謂中共借選國安無法這個傳了很多里長那現在開始很多不起訴都出來了那我預測將來很多大量的無罪會出來我不是說這個案子這種案子一定不應該辦而是他很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官法官是拿不到他可能在\n806821\t807961\t吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n835708\t836349\t感謝主席的比例\n","txt":"我們請司法院秘書長、法務部長有請吳秘書長還有蔡部長這邊我先就叫部長\n那部長我想說齁 大家我們都很清楚檢察官工作的核心是內勤外勤、開庭、寫書類那我今天收到一個報告齁每個檢察官目前的說案量是110件我想部長應該知道這個狀況嘛真他鄉啦對 對\n我們當年分發的時候\n我離開檢方是在民國109年但是108年到去年的這個數據以新收案件來說\n全國的新收案件漲了47%也就是這4年多裡面全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了房價是7年90幾%嘛那檢方的案件是4年多漲了47%我想說這已經到一個完全不合理的狀況了那一個案子我想我們都知道\n他必須要開庭他收案開庭訊問然後要寫書類要去思考也就是說這樣平均下來一個案子如果每一天超時工作12個小時的話3個小時才能結掉一件那這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷更何況有很多案子\n我們講一個簡單的啦你說酒醉駕車那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考更多那個人民之間的糾紛其實那個都沒有那麼容易所以說每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦部長這個部分你有什麼想法\n我同意委員的看法因為數字只是平均而已其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的有一個案子有時候需要好幾\n我之前處理過一個貪污案件那個案件一個案子裡面是\n有十幾個廠商被告到最後超過20個那我書類寫了一個多禮拜然後100多頁那這個也是一個案子所以說我們到最後會不會變成是檢察官或法官他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子去把它簡易化\n這個我想說部長這很重要的一件事情其實這幾年啊大家常常在罵一個東西在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官那我們知道就像我剛說的一個案子我們要月卷開庭、調資料還要寫書類這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵因為我知道問題出在哪裡大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官但是我跟各位\n說明一件事情就好像今天記者一天只能寫兩個稿我要你今天一天寫出十個稿你寫出來的東西品質就會出問題那一樣你用工廠來看好了如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法一個月生產30套設備\n那我我叫大家不睡覺不休息不陪家人一個月生產能夠經到60號設備但是今天老闆叫你生產到120號設備呢你出來品質良率就變很差今天我看到的司法是這樣所以與其大家一直罵說你這司法有問題司法怎麼樣你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境你發生了什麼事情\n我們就像我們去看醫生我們覺得看醫生醫生要跟我問診問10分鐘結果沒有啊人越來越多剩5分鐘到最後你現在去看診有1分鐘就請你出去了那你能夠看到什麼我們今天我們一直說法官檢察官有問題腦子有問題結果你弄錯了是你給他的數字出了問題結果東西出來一塌糊塗好我必須講一個啦齁\n我一直覺得當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足但是我想跟各位說一句話笨蛋問題在制度真的是制度出了問題尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議其實他把制度改得更複雜更亂結果不要跟我說司法改革成功司法改革成功與否你看為什麼\n這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到累到走不下去了或者是人民的滿意度越來越低你就不要跟我說司法改革成功我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重但是司法院你就是要硬推你也不去管到底\n吳宗憲\n高專業度的制度的修改你卻讓非常多非法律的人你可能找很多社運團體來這邊每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面然後要求制度修改但是制度跟制度制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣所以它很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年50年才慢慢有轉換結果我們這邊竟然是兩個月會議開完全國大改\n難怪到今天越改司法官累了半死司法官累了人生這條路走不下去然後累到現在中間站立最強的檢察官法官一堆人離職然後到最後我們補了很多新人他們經驗還需要慢慢培養補了很多新人進來案件量越來越多回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛\n那我要跟各位報告你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況那累死了一堆法官檢察官啦我們自己一路這樣走過來我自己看得很清楚啦現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了\n我們以前剛出來很好運我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理我還有時間去學怎麼辦案怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法、警察相處怎麼樣帶領他們辦案現在新分發的我去跟他們聊天每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類每天都在加班看卷\n他完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節他們辦案的功力越來越弱他們出來的書類品質越來越差他們開庭的時間越來越短就司法的品質就越來越差我覺得變成今天這樣子我今天我是很沉痛的點出我們司法今天的問題在這裡我覺得這個是制度面的問題啦我真的是\n制度面的問題那當然接下來我們還有比喻延長一年比喻延長一年之後這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量所以所有的東西你就是一直不停的加重加重再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量\n我想齁 這個制度的問題麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦因為基層他不會把聲音告訴長官們長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法但是我是一路基層做了20年我所有我現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官、同學們他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼\n講一個20幾年前要改交互結婚制度去美國抄了一套交互結婚制度來結果呢有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是40審結果我們40審搞了兩個審計同一套制度玩了兩遍消耗多少人力物力害當事人花了多少錢請律師我們都不管\n這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎你抄人家的制度就人家認為一個省級40省就要把它審理完畢上述二省有非常多的限制我就說甚至我們有學者把它歸類它叫做我們的法律省了叫做三省的法律省就我們同一套制度玩兩遍那那個意義在哪裡\n這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料啦那甚至我也說像譬如說職權緩起訴處分職權送災的意義在哪我從數據上面來看一點價值都沒有但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官\n那一樣就法官而言 法官刑事訴訟、二審肥大政就把二審搞慘了 因為我們上訴有審計利益的問題所以 被告上訴 完全沒有什麼成本 他想上訴就上訴搞得二審案件一大堆法官類的半死那 我希望齁 就是\n主席\n後然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準讓有錢人來使用法院應該多交一點錢但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分讓沒有錢的人也可以享受這個訴訟假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費不要讓檢察官法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團這我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢\n這是大家 我想部長一定很清楚這是大家檢察官心裡的痛還有妨礙司法公正是不是我們應該要趕快把它建立起來因為我講到這個議題我自己心裡是感觸很深因為畢竟我是這樣子走過來的那我現在身邊的好朋友也幾乎都還是法官檢察官以前的同學\n我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話部長或部長有沒有什麼想法謝謝委員指教委員是基層檢察官出身的我本人也是所以我非常了解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境那我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決不但是在爭取能力而且在他案件的怎麼樣的簡化\n包括我們書類不要用太多的這種敘述的方式能夠用格式化的方式來處理還有工作環境的改善我都是盡我最大的努力來完成謝謝部長部長委員這些提示我們都會加以來我想我剛剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已只是我這樣臨時想到了那最後30秒我講一個\n選前就是我們這個所謂中共借選國安無法這個傳了很多里長那現在開始很多不起訴都出來了那我預測將來很多大量的無罪會出來我不是說這個案子這種案子一定不應該辦而是他很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官法官是拿不到他可能在\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n感謝主席的比例\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.641 --> 00:24.792\n我們請司法院秘書長、法務部長有請吳秘書長還有蔡部長這邊我先就叫部長\n\n00:26.363 --> 00:39.733\n那部長我想說齁大家我們都很清楚檢察官工作的核心是內勤外勤、開庭、寫書類那我今天收到一個報告齁每個檢察官目前的說案量是110件我想部長應該知道這個狀況嘛真他鄉啦對對\n\n00:44.514 --> 00:45.014\n我們當年分發的時候\n\n01:11.821 --> 01:14.324\n我離開檢方是在民國109年但是108年到去年的這個數據以新收案件來說\n\n01:33.044 --> 01:57.877\n全國的新收案件漲了47%也就是這4年多裡面全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了房價是7年90幾%嘛那檢方的案件是4年多漲了47%我想說這已經到一個完全不合理的狀況了那一個案子我想我們都知道\n\n01:58.917 --> 02:22.097\n他必須要開庭他收案開庭訊問然後要寫書類要去思考也就是說這樣平均下來一個案子如果每一天超時工作12個小時的話3個小時才能結掉一件那這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷更何況有很多案子\n\n02:23.220 --> 02:42.279\n我們講一個簡單的啦你說酒醉駕車那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考更多那個人民之間的糾紛其實那個都沒有那麼容易所以說每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦部長這個部分你有什麼想法\n\n02:43.019 --> 02:53.191\n我同意委員的看法因為數字只是平均而已其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的有一個案子有時候需要好幾\n\n02:54.480 --> 02:55.601\n我之前處理過一個貪污案件那個案件一個案子裡面是\n\n03:18.894 --> 03:40.474\n有十幾個廠商被告到最後超過20個那我書類寫了一個多禮拜然後100多頁那這個也是一個案子所以說我們到最後會不會變成是檢察官或法官他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子去把它簡易化\n\n03:41.535 --> 04:04.857\n這個我想說部長這很重要的一件事情其實這幾年啊大家常常在罵一個東西在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官那我們知道就像我剛說的一個案子我們要月卷開庭、調資料還要寫書類這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵因為我知道問題出在哪裡大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官但是我跟各位\n\n04:06.088 --> 04:22.719\n說明一件事情就好像今天記者一天只能寫兩個稿我要你今天一天寫出十個稿你寫出來的東西品質就會出問題那一樣你用工廠來看好了如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法一個月生產30套設備\n\n04:24.480 --> 04:50.216\n那我我叫大家不睡覺不休息不陪家人一個月生產能夠經到60號設備但是今天老闆叫你生產到120號設備呢你出來品質良率就變很差今天我看到的司法是這樣所以與其大家一直罵說你這司法有問題司法怎麼樣你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境你發生了什麼事情\n\n04:51.414 --> 05:19.148\n我們就像我們去看醫生我們覺得看醫生醫生要跟我問診問10分鐘結果沒有啊人越來越多剩5分鐘到最後你現在去看診有1分鐘就請你出去了那你能夠看到什麼我們今天我們一直說法官檢察官有問題腦子有問題結果你弄錯了是你給他的數字出了問題結果東西出來一塌糊塗好我必須講一個啦齁\n\n05:21.584 --> 05:48.669\n我一直覺得當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足但是我想跟各位說一句話笨蛋問題在制度真的是制度出了問題尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議其實他把制度改得更複雜更亂結果不要跟我說司法改革成功司法改革成功與否你看為什麼\n\n05:50.184 --> 06:12.347\n這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到累到走不下去了或者是人民的滿意度越來越低你就不要跟我說司法改革成功我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重但是司法院你就是要硬推你也不去管到底\n\n06:13.424 --> 06:13.444\n吳宗憲\n\n06:29.716 --> 06:52.802\n高專業度的制度的修改你卻讓非常多非法律的人你可能找很多社運團體來這邊每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面然後要求制度修改但是制度跟制度制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣所以它很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年50年才慢慢有轉換結果我們這邊竟然是兩個月會議開完全國大改\n\n06:56.623 --> 07:18.640\n難怪到今天越改司法官累了半死司法官累了人生這條路走不下去然後累到現在中間站立最強的檢察官法官一堆人離職然後到最後我們補了很多新人他們經驗還需要慢慢培養補了很多新人進來案件量越來越多回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛\n\n07:19.941 --> 07:48.250\n那我要跟各位報告你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況那累死了一堆法官檢察官啦我們自己一路這樣走過來我自己看得很清楚啦現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了\n\n07:49.229 --> 08:09.000\n我們以前剛出來很好運我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理我還有時間去學怎麼辦案怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法、警察相處怎麼樣帶領他們辦案現在新分發的我去跟他們聊天每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類每天都在加班看卷\n\n08:09.600 --> 08:35.602\n他完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節他們辦案的功力越來越弱他們出來的書類品質越來越差他們開庭的時間越來越短就司法的品質就越來越差我覺得變成今天這樣子我今天我是很沉痛的點出我們司法今天的問題在這裡我覺得這個是制度面的問題啦我真的是\n\n08:36.523 --> 08:58.809\n制度面的問題那當然接下來我們還有比喻延長一年比喻延長一年之後這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量所以所有的東西你就是一直不停的加重加重再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量\n\n09:01.445 --> 09:28.525\n我想齁這個制度的問題麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦因為基層他不會把聲音告訴長官們長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法但是我是一路基層做了20年我所有我現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官、同學們他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼\n\n09:31.583 --> 09:54.745\n講一個20幾年前要改交互結婚制度去美國抄了一套交互結婚制度來結果呢有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是40審結果我們40審搞了兩個審計同一套制度玩了兩遍消耗多少人力物力害當事人花了多少錢請律師我們都不管\n\n09:56.241 --> 10:16.541\n這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎你抄人家的制度就人家認為一個省級40省就要把它審理完畢上述二省有非常多的限制我就說甚至我們有學者把它歸類它叫做我們的法律省了叫做三省的法律省就我們同一套制度玩兩遍那那個意義在哪裡\n\n10:18.803 --> 10:31.802\n這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料啦那甚至我也說像譬如說職權緩起訴處分職權送災的意義在哪我從數據上面來看一點價值都沒有但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官\n\n10:32.674 --> 10:54.724\n那一樣就法官而言法官刑事訴訟、二審肥大政就把二審搞慘了因為我們上訴有審計利益的問題所以被告上訴完全沒有什麼成本他想上訴就上訴搞得二審案件一大堆法官類的半死那我希望齁就是\n\n10:55.794 --> 10:55.834\n主席\n\n11:11.053 --> 11:38.614\n後然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準讓有錢人來使用法院應該多交一點錢但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分讓沒有錢的人也可以享受這個訴訟假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費不要讓檢察官法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團這我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢\n\n11:40.476 --> 12:04.550\n這是大家我想部長一定很清楚這是大家檢察官心裡的痛還有妨礙司法公正是不是我們應該要趕快把它建立起來因為我講到這個議題我自己心裡是感觸很深因為畢竟我是這樣子走過來的那我現在身邊的好朋友也幾乎都還是法官檢察官以前的同學\n\n12:06.656 --> 12:33.661\n我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話部長或部長有沒有什麼想法謝謝委員指教委員是基層檢察官出身的我本人也是所以我非常了解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境那我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決不但是在爭取能力而且在他案件的怎麼樣的簡化\n\n12:35.541 --> 13:02.872\n包括我們書類不要用太多的這種敘述的方式能夠用格式化的方式來處理還有工作環境的改善我都是盡我最大的努力來完成謝謝部長部長委員這些提示我們都會加以來我想我剛剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已只是我這樣臨時想到了那最後30秒我講一個\n\n13:05.772 --> 13:25.861\n選前就是我們這個所謂中共借選國安無法這個傳了很多里長那現在開始很多不起訴都出來了那我預測將來很多大量的無罪會出來我不是說這個案子這種案子一定不應該辦而是他很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官法官是拿不到他可能在\n\n13:26.821 --> 13:27.961\n吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲\n\n13:55.708 --> 13:56.349\n感謝主席的比例\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.641,"end":24.792,"text":"我們請司法院秘書長、法務部長有請吳秘書長還有蔡部長這邊我先就叫部長"},{"start":26.363,"end":39.733,"text":"那部長我想說齁 大家我們都很清楚檢察官工作的核心是內勤外勤、開庭、寫書類那我今天收到一個報告齁每個檢察官目前的說案量是110件我想部長應該知道這個狀況嘛真他鄉啦對 對"},{"start":44.514,"end":45.014,"text":"我們當年分發的時候"},{"start":71.821,"end":74.324,"text":"我離開檢方是在民國109年但是108年到去年的這個數據以新收案件來說"},{"start":93.044,"end":117.877,"text":"全國的新收案件漲了47%也就是這4年多裡面全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了房價是7年90幾%嘛那檢方的案件是4年多漲了47%我想說這已經到一個完全不合理的狀況了那一個案子我想我們都知道"},{"start":118.917,"end":142.097,"text":"他必須要開庭他收案開庭訊問然後要寫書類要去思考也就是說這樣平均下來一個案子如果每一天超時工作12個小時的話3個小時才能結掉一件那這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷更何況有很多案子"},{"start":143.22,"end":162.279,"text":"我們講一個簡單的啦你說酒醉駕車那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考更多那個人民之間的糾紛其實那個都沒有那麼容易所以說每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦部長這個部分你有什麼想法"},{"start":163.019,"end":173.191,"text":"我同意委員的看法因為數字只是平均而已其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的有一個案子有時候需要好幾"},{"start":174.48,"end":175.601,"text":"我之前處理過一個貪污案件那個案件一個案子裡面是"},{"start":198.894,"end":220.474,"text":"有十幾個廠商被告到最後超過20個那我書類寫了一個多禮拜然後100多頁那這個也是一個案子所以說我們到最後會不會變成是檢察官或法官他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子去把它簡易化"},{"start":221.535,"end":244.857,"text":"這個我想說部長這很重要的一件事情其實這幾年啊大家常常在罵一個東西在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官那我們知道就像我剛說的一個案子我們要月卷開庭、調資料還要寫書類這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵因為我知道問題出在哪裡大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官但是我跟各位"},{"start":246.088,"end":262.719,"text":"說明一件事情就好像今天記者一天只能寫兩個稿我要你今天一天寫出十個稿你寫出來的東西品質就會出問題那一樣你用工廠來看好了如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法一個月生產30套設備"},{"start":264.48,"end":290.216,"text":"那我我叫大家不睡覺不休息不陪家人一個月生產能夠經到60號設備但是今天老闆叫你生產到120號設備呢你出來品質良率就變很差今天我看到的司法是這樣所以與其大家一直罵說你這司法有問題司法怎麼樣你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境你發生了什麼事情"},{"start":291.414,"end":319.148,"text":"我們就像我們去看醫生我們覺得看醫生醫生要跟我問診問10分鐘結果沒有啊人越來越多剩5分鐘到最後你現在去看診有1分鐘就請你出去了那你能夠看到什麼我們今天我們一直說法官檢察官有問題腦子有問題結果你弄錯了是你給他的數字出了問題結果東西出來一塌糊塗好我必須講一個啦齁"},{"start":321.584,"end":348.669,"text":"我一直覺得當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足但是我想跟各位說一句話笨蛋問題在制度真的是制度出了問題尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議其實他把制度改得更複雜更亂結果不要跟我說司法改革成功司法改革成功與否你看為什麼"},{"start":350.184,"end":372.347,"text":"這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到累到走不下去了或者是人民的滿意度越來越低你就不要跟我說司法改革成功我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重但是司法院你就是要硬推你也不去管到底"},{"start":373.424,"end":373.444,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":389.716,"end":412.802,"text":"高專業度的制度的修改你卻讓非常多非法律的人你可能找很多社運團體來這邊每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面然後要求制度修改但是制度跟制度制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣所以它很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年50年才慢慢有轉換結果我們這邊竟然是兩個月會議開完全國大改"},{"start":416.623,"end":438.64,"text":"難怪到今天越改司法官累了半死司法官累了人生這條路走不下去然後累到現在中間站立最強的檢察官法官一堆人離職然後到最後我們補了很多新人他們經驗還需要慢慢培養補了很多新人進來案件量越來越多回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛"},{"start":439.941,"end":468.25,"text":"那我要跟各位報告你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況那累死了一堆法官檢察官啦我們自己一路這樣走過來我自己看得很清楚啦現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了"},{"start":469.229,"end":489,"text":"我們以前剛出來很好運我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理我還有時間去學怎麼辦案怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法、警察相處怎麼樣帶領他們辦案現在新分發的我去跟他們聊天每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類每天都在加班看卷"},{"start":489.6,"end":515.602,"text":"他完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節他們辦案的功力越來越弱他們出來的書類品質越來越差他們開庭的時間越來越短就司法的品質就越來越差我覺得變成今天這樣子我今天我是很沉痛的點出我們司法今天的問題在這裡我覺得這個是制度面的問題啦我真的是"},{"start":516.523,"end":538.809,"text":"制度面的問題那當然接下來我們還有比喻延長一年比喻延長一年之後這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量所以所有的東西你就是一直不停的加重加重再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量"},{"start":541.445,"end":568.525,"text":"我想齁 這個制度的問題麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦因為基層他不會把聲音告訴長官們長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法但是我是一路基層做了20年我所有我現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官、同學們他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼"},{"start":571.583,"end":594.745,"text":"講一個20幾年前要改交互結婚制度去美國抄了一套交互結婚制度來結果呢有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是40審結果我們40審搞了兩個審計同一套制度玩了兩遍消耗多少人力物力害當事人花了多少錢請律師我們都不管"},{"start":596.241,"end":616.541,"text":"這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎你抄人家的制度就人家認為一個省級40省就要把它審理完畢上述二省有非常多的限制我就說甚至我們有學者把它歸類它叫做我們的法律省了叫做三省的法律省就我們同一套制度玩兩遍那那個意義在哪裡"},{"start":618.803,"end":631.802,"text":"這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料啦那甚至我也說像譬如說職權緩起訴處分職權送災的意義在哪我從數據上面來看一點價值都沒有但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官"},{"start":632.674,"end":654.724,"text":"那一樣就法官而言 法官刑事訴訟、二審肥大政就把二審搞慘了 因為我們上訴有審計利益的問題所以 被告上訴 完全沒有什麼成本 他想上訴就上訴搞得二審案件一大堆法官類的半死那 我希望齁 就是"},{"start":655.794,"end":655.834,"text":"主席"},{"start":671.053,"end":698.614,"text":"後然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準讓有錢人來使用法院應該多交一點錢但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分讓沒有錢的人也可以享受這個訴訟假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費不要讓檢察官法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團這我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢"},{"start":700.476,"end":724.55,"text":"這是大家 我想部長一定很清楚這是大家檢察官心裡的痛還有妨礙司法公正是不是我們應該要趕快把它建立起來因為我講到這個議題我自己心裡是感觸很深因為畢竟我是這樣子走過來的那我現在身邊的好朋友也幾乎都還是法官檢察官以前的同學"},{"start":726.656,"end":753.661,"text":"我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話部長或部長有沒有什麼想法謝謝委員指教委員是基層檢察官出身的我本人也是所以我非常了解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境那我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決不但是在爭取能力而且在他案件的怎麼樣的簡化"},{"start":755.541,"end":782.872,"text":"包括我們書類不要用太多的這種敘述的方式能夠用格式化的方式來處理還有工作環境的改善我都是盡我最大的努力來完成謝謝部長部長委員這些提示我們都會加以來我想我剛剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已只是我這樣臨時想到了那最後30秒我講一個"},{"start":785.772,"end":805.861,"text":"選前就是我們這個所謂中共借選國安無法這個傳了很多里長那現在開始很多不起訴都出來了那我預測將來很多大量的無罪會出來我不是說這個案子這種案子一定不應該辦而是他很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官法官是拿不到他可能在"},{"start":806.821,"end":807.961,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":835.708,"end":836.349,"text":"感謝主席的比例"}]}}}}