{"id":151677,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb357431ea4ce10da6d7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b844322153524cdbbb34395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:40:58 - 11:57:03","影片長度":"00:16:05","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-16"},"duration":965,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:57:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:40:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時41分）謝謝主席！在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院吳秘書長、民事廳周廳長、人事處陳處長還有法務部的蔡部長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長和蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好！"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好！部長好！廳長好！處長好！先請教秘書長，剛剛有委員問到2016年賴浩敏前院長跟蘇永欽前副院長向蔡英文總統辭職一事，請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況去表達此意？是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任？還是什麼原因？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當時雖然在5月份的時候有黨團提出訴求……"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪個黨團？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是時代力量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：時代力量黨團提出一個訴求？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是希望說5月有一個交接，希望……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是5月有個交接，希望這兩位，院長、副院長辭職？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是5月份的時候，但是當時的司法院長賴浩敏院長是在7月11號才請辭，總統沒有馬上處理，就是要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他為什麼請辭？是因為新總統就任？"],["吳秘書長三龍：並不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是因為什麼請辭？"],["吳秘書長三龍：他的任期到10月31號屆滿，所以他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是任期將屆請辭啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：他的任期將屆，但是總統是在他任期將屆之前4天即10月27號才准辭。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以並沒有所謂的因為時代力量黨團提出新總統就任，要建立憲政慣例，所以要求司法院正副院長向新任總統或向原任命總統請辭，沒有啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：沒有慣例，所以賴浩敏院長是到任期滿，即10月31號任期滿他才離職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！很清楚了，這個歷史不能夠錯亂。","接下來我先請教一下，保單遭強制執行數量暴增的問題，我之前在財政委員會也有問到，請問廳長，是不是從2022年開始有這個情況？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是不是造成我們法院很大的一個工作壓力？"],["周廳長玫芳：對執行處變成是一個比較大的壓力，且集中在台北地院跟士林地院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這兩個地院特別嚴重？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要請教蔡部長，關於這一點，我問過了保險局，也問過了金管會，他們說他們曾經提出修正行政執行法的方式來解決這個問題，我先解釋一下什麼是強制執行保單。就是要保人因為有欠債，而他有個保單在保險公司，債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約，以這個保單的解約金或準備金來抵付債務，所以就聲請強制執行，部長瞭解了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是民事強制執行還是刑事強制執行……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是負責刑事強制執行，那行政執行法的主責單位是哪裡？是你啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：依據行政執行法是因為他欠的是公家的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，包括欠稅也是。"],["蔡部長清祥：欠稅或是欠罰款才是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會是希望你們修行政執行法，把這個改一下，不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去他的權益，你覺得是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想都可以考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都可以考慮？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果說可以來合理化……"],["鍾委員佳濱：願意配合？再請教秘書長，針對這一點，我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵，因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權，可是受益人就因此憑空損失了，包括他的癌症險以及他的一些健康險等，都因為主約被解約使得附約也連帶消失了。有人提出用介入權的方式讓受益人可以介入來償付解約金，對這樣的一個修法方向，司法院支持嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：關於這一個部分，因為涉及整個保險政策的問題，如果要做改變的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果金管會要做這個改變，修正保險法，提出自行介入權，你們支持嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：如果在保險法裡面做改變，我們很尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！因為民事案件執行量大增，我們現在要與金管會保險局和壽險公會來協調統一格式、流程，以降低執行法院的壓力，你同意嗎？在修法之前先做這個事情，願不願意？"],["周廳長玫芳：對這個部分，我們已經在啟動這樣的機制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝！部長跟廳長兩位請回座，這一題問完我們開始今天正式要提出的質詢。我再請教一下秘書長，有一個叫做圖靈測試，目的是要區分回答者是人還是機器人。請問秘書長，你覺得法官是人類還是判決產生器？這很簡單吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那當然是人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然是人類，對不對？我們來看一下，司法官的養成要相當長的時間，以法官來說，要相當長的時間，但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快，所以就我們要解決目前積案案量來說，您覺得調整法官的員額或培養來得比較迅速，還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們環境上的壓力？很難回答？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那當然要還是要從人倫來思考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是培養人要比較長的時間嘛！我們現在看的這個圖就很有意思，30年來，我們的民事案件增長了6倍，就是藍色這個長條圖；我們的刑事案件是紅色的長條圖；綠色線條顯示的是民事月均辦結案，它在2007年、2006年到一個高峰後，啪的跳水一般就躺平了。至於我們的刑事月均辦結數則是從頭到尾像心臟停止一樣平平的一條線，如果以目前這樣的一個月均辦結數比照現在的民事跟刑事的成長，你覺得有解方嗎？民事新增了314萬件，刑事新增了45萬件。"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以未結案數就增加了96%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊！你們能夠辦結的數就是躺平啦！數量增加率在上面，這是惡意濫訴，還是我們立法者重刑化，抑或案件複雜化造成的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：不管怎麼樣，法院是社會信賴的很重要的力量，所以法院被賦予各種要照料的事物愈來愈多，範圍也廣了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：隨著案量的提高，大家期待法院辦結的能力也能提高，但恰恰相反，直接躺平！為什麼？我們繼續往下看，我們常常說上游缺水保、下游土石流、人力永遠不夠用，你同意嗎？是不是從源頭案量的控管比較重要？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是，那個當然最重要，不然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們底下提出這幾個方法，譬如說在刑事上加強行政處遇，在民事上透過律師的諮詢強化調解，在程序上加強審查，減少訴訟量，一審量少上訴量就能減少，你覺得這有沒有幫助？"],["吳秘書長三龍：一些有效率的方式應該都會有幫助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你都支持？那我們來看一下，訴訟減量、行政減化已經部分上路了，你們有沒有做人力影響評估？成效如何？有沒有評估說你們現在所做的訴訟減量跟行政減化到底有沒有讓源頭的案量減少？你們有沒有評估過？"],["吳秘書長三龍：最主要原因是案源有時候我們無法控制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們沒有控制怎麼知道如何解決？人家說對症下藥，你們今天看到案量一直成長，祭出了訴訟減量，祭出了行政減化，結果祭出了這些手法還是沒有把它壓下來，那你就對症沒有下藥啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以就出了另外一種聲音要限量分案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當你們下了這個藥的時候，病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化，你們有沒有做這個評估？如果你沒有做這個評估又不斷的下藥、下藥，結果案量一直成長、成長，你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效？"],["吳秘書長三龍：最主要在司法機關也是很無奈呀！案源一直來啊！因為法令賦予要照料的事物很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長！我們用科學方法啦！你面對問題提出解方，解方有沒有使問題不繼續惡化也要評估嘛，對不對？請你們回去做評估。為了要減少訴訟，讓法官能專注審判核心業務，我們提出了透過包括智慧科技來形成筆錄，在確保資安的前提之下，讓調查意見資料能夠用摘要這個方式，還有簡化判決書、書狀格式化等建議，你認為這些有沒有幫助？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些都會有幫助，尤其裁判書簡化這個事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就請你把這些措施引進之後，判斷一下有沒有因為這個措施的引進讓案源或案量稍微……不要說減少啦，至少成長不要那麼快。可不可以去做一個評估？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看下一個，法官不是機器人，合理的工作才有裁判品質，你們的司法周刊說要去衡量法官的工作案量、結案量對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：結案量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，結案100件跟結案10件，哪一個效率高？你認為結案100件跟結案10件的兩個法官誰的效率好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那當然要合理的結案，品質才會好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那你們有沒有評估？你們目前只有一個量化的數字叫做結案量，這對法官壓力很大啊！有沒有分類？不同的案件可能需要不同的工作量，所以是不是應該用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量，是不是這樣子？你們有做嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們明天就會舉行這樣一個會議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們明天要舉行？還好本席今天問了，我問的你們明天就要做了，很好！所以請你們好好的落實，對不同案件的合理工作量做合理的評估而不是以單一的結案數量為準，是不是這樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後我們來看一下，我今天問的你們從明天開始就要做。要統計才有辦法估算人力需求，進而幫助法官減壓，那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎？有辦法吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是可以，因為這個都會有一定的處理方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後提到員額問題。其實我們剛剛講到了司法官，尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間，在一個司法院院長的任內，其實就算透過人總給你們員額，你們都不見得來得及補，對不對？我們來看一下，螢幕上的139,000還沒有改正，應該是目前你們的員額從13,900人變成15,000人，但其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%，司法院的員額則是從13,900人變成15,000人，增加了快8%，你覺得人總有沒有給予司法院較多的員額，讓你們解決問題？有沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是因為我們現在的需求，像今天有提出一個表，要5,536人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道啦！我是說從整體來看，其他小孩的零用金都減了，但給你的零用金是成長的，處長，你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院？"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，這個要講到一個沿革，就是在108年底的時候修正總員額法，當時雖然從13,900人提高為15,000人，看起來是增加1,100人，但事實上當時司法院提出來需要請增的員額是22,068人，……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解。"],["陳處長美彤：評估後來的新制，果不其然，現在減縮為15,000人之後，接下來的各項新制如憲法、訴訟法、國民法官法、行政訴訟新制、商業事件審理法等等這一大堆新制，都增加我們法官的工作負擔，這1,100人現在證明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是杯水車薪，對不對？"],["陳處長美彤：加上明年又要成立北部少家法院，然後……"],["鍾委員佳濱：處長你不用說得那麼上氣不接下氣的，我們都知道你們需求很大。但是今天整體中華民國中央政府員額是減7%的，所以我要說的是我們持平來論。整個中央政府總員額是在縮減的，但是給司法院的員額是提高的，只是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求，這是你要講的，對不對？那我們往這方面來思考，除了實任法官之外，依法官法第七十七條還有優遇法官，請問優遇法官有沒有計入目前的員額？有沒有？"],["陳處長美彤：他有占員額，因為他還是有領人事費，是領三分之二。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法條規定是不計入該機關所定員額之內。"],["陳處長美彤：那是指不計入現有員額，但是他還是計入預算員額。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是一個問題了！所以未來我們是不是可以跟人總商量不要把優遇法官再計算在預算員額內？主管預算員額的是誰？是主計總處，對不對？"],["陳處長美彤：這還涉及到人事費用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：涉及人事費用？所以這個部分你們具體來提，你們會發現過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶！我不是說有年齡歧視，但是年齡稍長的因為有優遇制度，比較不容易過勞，可是一樣占員額；如果他辦的案件少，我們還是給他優遇，因為憲法第八十一條規定法官是終身職，是不是這樣？所以過勞的都是年輕的法官，那我們沒辦法把這個員額……"],["吳秘書長三龍：過勞不分年齡啦！因為我看過太多年老的也是如此。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講話啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我70歲了，我知道服務……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也很過勞啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：而且看過那個年老的這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我說你們要設法從員額上的計算去跟人總argue，可不可以？去討論優遇法官是不是可以不計入你們的員額。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量來爭取，也期盼人總今天的代表能帶回我們的聲音。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人總的代表，可以帶回去嗎？可以？點頭啦！","最後是我今天的結論，三管齊下─源頭的案源要減量；科技化協助分擔分流，讓法官抓到核心判決；合理評估工作量和結案量，預估未來的需求，這幾方面都很重要。所以我們最後有提出兩個要求：請司法院三個月內提出書面報告，合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量，據以調配案量並評估未來的需求，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請司法院衡量10年內優遇法官空出的員額，我可能還要再加一句「配合跟人事總處爭取」，併入未來整體的員額需求，並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置，三個月內提出書面報告。我要說明為什麼這樣要求，因為如果優遇法官的員額可以空出來，其實你要酌給一些書記官，因為書記官是沒有優遇的，他們很憂鬱，可是他們沒有辦法得到優遇，所以他們的員額是固定的，你們在分配的時候要多給一些，也減輕書記官的負擔。可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝秘書長，這是很大的工程，但是人力的部分還是要去解決啦。","接下來我們請翁曉玲翁委員質詢。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：我們先處理會議時間，上午會議繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來我們就請翁委員。謝謝！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","林思銘","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","賴士葆","傅崐萁"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運\n用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151677","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151677","tool":"pyannote","id":"151677-pyannote"},"job_id":"aj3fRvSqeGkPs567","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"量\", \"start\": 647.728, \"end\": 647.888, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 647.888, \"end\": 648.088, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 648.088, \"end\": 648.208, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 648.208, \"end\": 648.328, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 648.328, \"end\": 648.568, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 648.568, \"end\": 648.648, \"score\": 0.733}, {\"word\": \"量\", \"start\": 648.648, \"end\": 648.888, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 648.888, \"end\": 648.968, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 648.968, \"end\": 649.049, \"score\": 0.968}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 649.049, \"end\": 649.269, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 649.269, \"end\": 649.289, \"score\": 0.959}]}, {\"start\": 650.449, \"end\": 653.713, \"text\": \"請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣\", \"words\": 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\"因為他還是有領人事費他是領三分之二上面寫不記錄該機關所定員額之內呢那是在指不記錄現有員額但是他還是記錄預算員額好那這個就是一個問題了嘛所以未來我們是不是可以把憂鬱的法官在員額的計算上跟人總商量不要計算在你們的機關員額或者不要再計算預算員額預算員額是誰是主計總處嘛對不對\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 815.868, \"end\": 816.008, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 816.008, \"end\": 816.268, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 816.268, \"end\": 816.388, \"score\": 0.849}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 816.388, \"end\": 816.808, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 816.808, \"end\": 817.028, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 817.028, \"end\": 817.509, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 817.509, \"end\": 817.649, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 817.649, \"end\": 818.829, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"領\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 818.829, \"end\": 818.989, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 818.989, \"end\": 819.149, \"score\": 0.99}, 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{\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 836.695, \"end\": 836.815, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 836.815, \"end\": 836.975, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 836.975, \"end\": 837.075, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 837.075, \"end\": 837.356, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"預\"}, {\"word\": \"算\", \"start\": 837.356, \"end\": 837.456, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 837.456, \"end\": 837.476, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"誰\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 837.476, \"end\": 837.496, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 837.496, \"end\": 837.516, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"總\"}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 837.516, \"end\": 837.636, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 837.636, \"end\": 837.656, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"對\"}]}, {\"start\": 842.498, \"end\": 864.025, \"text\": \"人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些 所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛憲法81條的規定嘛 是不是這樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 842.498, \"end\": 842.718, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 842.718, \"end\": 843.058, \"score\": 0.887}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"用\", \"start\": 843.058, \"end\": 844.399, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 844.399, \"end\": 844.579, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 844.579, \"end\": 844.799, \"score\": 0.818}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 844.799, \"end\": 844.919, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 844.919, \"end\": 845.079, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 845.079, \"end\": 845.339, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"具\", \"start\": 845.339, \"end\": 845.559, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"體\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 845.559, \"end\": 846.699, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 846.699, \"end\": 847.28, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 847.28, \"end\": 847.72, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 847.72, \"end\": 847.8, \"score\": 0.755}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 847.8, \"end\": 847.86, \"score\": 0.665}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 847.86, \"end\": 848.38, \"score\": 0.879}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 848.38, \"end\": 849.3, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 849.3, \"end\": 849.44, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 849.44, \"end\": 849.62, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 849.62, \"end\": 849.76, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 849.76, \"end\": 849.86, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 849.86, \"end\": 849.92, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 849.92, \"end\": 850.04, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 850.04, \"end\": 850.14, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 850.14, \"end\": 850.521, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"輕\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 850.521, \"end\": 850.661, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"耶\", \"start\": 850.661, \"end\": 852.381, \"score\": 0.844}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 852.381, \"end\": 852.501, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 852.501, \"end\": 852.601, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 852.601, \"end\": 852.861, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 852.861, \"end\": 853.181, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"齡\"}, {\"word\": \"歧\", \"start\": 853.181, \"end\": 853.481, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 853.481, \"end\": 853.621, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 853.621, \"end\": 853.742, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 853.742, \"end\": 854.062, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"輕\"}, {\"word\": \"照\", \"start\": 854.062, \"end\": 854.382, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 854.382, \"end\": 854.462, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 854.462, \"end\": 854.622, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 854.622, \"end\": 855.222, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"憂\"}, {\"word\": \"鬱\"}, {\"word\": \"制\", \"start\": 855.222, \"end\": 855.382, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"度\", \"start\": 855.382, \"end\": 856.182, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 856.182, \"end\": 856.462, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"比\", \"start\": 856.462, \"end\": 856.802, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"較\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 856.802, \"end\": 856.882, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"容\", \"start\": 856.882, \"end\": 857.022, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"易\", \"start\": 857.022, \"end\": 858.003, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 858.003, \"end\": 858.143, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 858.143, \"end\": 858.283, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 858.283, \"end\": 858.463, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 858.463, \"end\": 859.963, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"佔\"}, {\"word\": \"緣\"}, {\"word\": \"額\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 859.963, \"end\": 860.103, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 860.103, \"end\": 860.143, \"score\": 0.548}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 860.143, \"end\": 860.483, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 860.483, \"end\": 860.563, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 860.563, \"end\": 860.744, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 860.744, \"end\": 861.004, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 861.004, \"end\": 861.504, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 861.504, \"end\": 861.784, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"給\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 861.784, \"end\": 861.964, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"憂\"}, {\"word\": \"鬱\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 861.964, \"end\": 862.684, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 862.684, \"end\": 862.824, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"官\", \"start\": 862.824, \"end\": 863.124, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"終\"}, {\"word\": \"身\", \"start\": 863.124, \"end\": 863.304, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"職\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 863.304, \"end\": 863.424, \"score\": 0.772}, {\"word\": \"憲\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 863.424, \"end\": 863.524, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"8\"}, {\"word\": \"1\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 863.524, \"end\": 863.584, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"定\", \"start\": 863.584, \"end\": 863.704, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 863.704, \"end\": 863.784, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 863.784, \"end\": 863.864, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 863.864, \"end\": 864.004, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 864.004, \"end\": 864.025, \"score\": 0.006}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 865.911, \"end\": 891.414, \"text\": \"所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個緣額...應該不分年齡啦應該不分年齡因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個緣額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 865.911, \"end\": 866.191, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 866.191, \"end\": 867.032, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"老\", \"start\": 867.032, \"end\": 867.212, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 867.212, \"end\": 867.332, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"都\", \"start\": 867.332, \"end\": 867.472, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 867.472, \"end\": 867.613, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 867.613, \"end\": 867.893, 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\"end\": 944.939, \"score\": 0.49}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"鍾\"}, {\"word\": \"佳\", \"start\": 954.179, \"end\": 954.199, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"濱\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:11,499 --> 00:00:21,788\n主席,謝謝主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關司法官員,會長工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請司法院吳秘書長,民視廳周庭長,還有人事處的陳處長,還有法務部的蔡部長請蔡部長\n\n2\n00:00:31,747 --> 00:00:57,914\n秘書長好、部長好、廳長好、處長好先請教秘書長剛剛有委員問到在2016年有賴浩鳴院長、前院長跟蘇永青前副院長那麼他們向蔡英文總統辭職那請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況之下去表達是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任還是什麼原因\n\n3\n00:01:00,596 --> 00:01:19,587\n當時雖然在五月份的時候有黨團提出訴求哪個黨團是時代力量黨團提出一個訴求就是希望說五月也是就是說有一個交接聲音大一點五月有一個交接然後呢就是希望說這兩位院長副院長辭職就五月份的時候但是\n\n4\n00:01:20,944 --> 00:01:39,705\n當時的賴浩鳴司法院長他是在7月11號才請辭是總統沒有馬上處理就是要他為什麼請辭是因為新總統就任並不是他是因為什麼請辭那他可能當時有\n\n5\n00:01:42,096 --> 00:02:08,246\n他任期到10月31號屆滿所以他：任期將屆請辭任期將屆但是總統也是到他要將屆之前4天10月27號才準時所以並沒有所謂的因為時代力量黨能提出說新總統就任要建立一個憲政慣例所以要求司法院政府院長向新任總統或像原任的總統請辭沒有啦沒有慣例所以那個賴浩鳴\n\n6\n00:02:11,067 --> 00:02:11,467\n請問廳長是不是有這個情況?\n\n7\n00:02:28,703 --> 00:02:31,505\n關於這一點我問過了保險局也問過了金管會他說他們曾經要說來修行政執行法來解決這個問題我先解釋一下什麼強制保單執行保單就是說\n\n8\n00:02:57,455 --> 00:03:27,006\n那個藥保人他因為欠了債那他有一個保單在保險公司那裡結果債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約拿回這個保單的解約金或者準備金來抵付這個債務所以就申請強制執行大概部長這樣有沒有了解這是民事強制執行還是行政強制執行那你是負責行政強制執行行政執行法是哪裡\n\n9\n00:03:30,061 --> 00:03:46,719\n行政執行法是因為他欠這個工的對包括欠稅也是所以金管會是希望你們修行政執行法改一下不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去了你覺得是不是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法\n\n10\n00:03:47,438 --> 00:04:01,476\n我想都可以考慮啦都可以考慮好如果說可以來合理化願意配合好來那個秘書長那麼這一點呢我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權啊\n\n11\n00:04:02,858 --> 00:04:05,961\n主約被解約,副約也消失,有人提出用介入權的方式,讓受益人可以介入來償付解約金,這樣的一個修法方向,司法院支持嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:21,780 --> 00:04:22,401\n兩位請回\n\n13\n00:04:44,333 --> 00:05:02,214\n我先請教一下秘書長部長請回有一個叫圖靈測試對不起我們看看這個這個民事執行量我們現在就是說與金管會保險局和受險公會來協調統一格式流程降低執行法院的壓力你同意嗎在這個修法之前先做這個事情\n\n14\n00:05:02,745 --> 00:05:08,448\n有一個叫做圖靈測試要區分回答者是人還是機器人那請問一下秘書長你覺得法官是人類還是判決產生器\n\n15\n00:05:25,209 --> 00:05:51,786\n這很簡單吧當然是人類嘛對不對好所以我們來看一下司法官的養成要相當長的時間以法官來說要這麼長的時間但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快所以就我們要解決目前的基案的案量您覺得法官調整法官的緣額或培養來得比較迅速還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們的環境上的壓力\n\n16\n00:05:55,083 --> 00:05:55,483\n很難回答來\n\n17\n00:06:25,243 --> 00:06:25,423\n主席\n\n18\n00:06:43,513 --> 00:07:02,684\n民事新增了314萬件刑事新增了45萬件所以未結案就未結案就增加96%啊是啊你能夠辦結的就是躺平啦數量呢增加的就在上面是惡意亂數還是我們立法者重型化還是案件複雜化造成的\n\n19\n00:07:04,793 --> 00:07:25,574\n法院在不管怎樣是社會信賴的很重要的力量所以法院就被賦予各種要照料的書越來越多大家期待法院能夠把案量隨著案量的提高能夠把它辦結的能力也提高範圍也廣了恰恰相反直接躺平\n\n20\n00:07:26,397 --> 00:07:36,608\n為什麼我們往下看我們常說上游缺水保下游土石流人力永遠不夠用你同意嗎是不是從源頭按量的控管比較重要\n\n21\n00:07:40,970 --> 00:07:56,270\n所以我們底下提出這幾個方法比如說在刑事上我們加強行政處遇在民事上我們透過律師的諮詢強化調解在程序上加強審查減少訴訟量一審量少上訴量就能減少你覺得這有沒有幫助\n\n22\n00:08:00,332 --> 00:08:21,429\n這個應該一些有效率的方式這些應該都會有幫助的所以你都支持好那我們來看一下訴訟減量行政簡化已經部分上路了你們有沒有做人力評估的影響影響的評估成效如何有沒有有沒有評估說你們現在所做的這所有的訴訟減量跟行政簡化到底有沒有讓案源源頭的案量減少你們有沒有評估過\n\n23\n00:08:22,554 --> 00:08:38,881\n因為最主要暗眼有時候我們無法控制啊你們有沒有控制那你怎麼知道你的有人要說對症下藥啊你今天看到暗量一直成長你們祭出了訴訟減量祭出了行政簡化結果祭出的手法還是沒法壓下來\n\n24\n00:08:39,881 --> 00:08:52,011\n那你這個對症就沒有下藥啦所以就有另外一種要限量困難的聲音就你們有沒有自己評估過當你們下了這個藥的時候病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化你們有沒有做這個評估\n\n25\n00:08:53,755 --> 00:09:12,740\n如果你沒有做這評估,你不斷地下藥下藥,結果呢案例一直成長成長,你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效?那最主要在司法機關是很無奈啊,案言一直來啊,因為法令負擬啊,照料就輸也沒多啊我們科學方法啦,你面對問題你提出解方\n\n26\n00:09:13,380 --> 00:09:38,616\n解方有沒有造成問題沒有繼續惡化也要評估嘛對不對請你們回去做評估來為了要減少訴訟讓法官能專注我們的審判核心業務我們提出了透過包括了我們智慧科技來形成筆錄在確保治安的前提之下我們讓這個摘要的調查意見資料能夠用這個方式還有簡化判決書啊書狀的格式化那你認為這些有沒有幫助\n\n27\n00:09:39,411 --> 00:09:39,671\n法官不是機器人\n\n28\n00:10:01,527 --> 00:10:25,916\n有合理的工作才有裁判品質目前你們是有說一個你們有一個怎樣司法週刊說怎樣你們要去衡量法官的工作量案量對不對案量結案量那請問一下結案100件跟結案10件哪一件哪一個效率高那結案100件跟結案10件兩個法官你認為誰的效率好\n\n29\n00:10:28,018 --> 00:10:49,289\n當然要合理的結案品質才會好是那你們有沒有評估所以你們目前這一個量化的數字叫做結案量這對法官壓力很大啊有沒有分類不同的案件他可能不需要不同的工作量所以是不是用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量是不是這樣子\n\n30\n00:10:50,449 --> 00:10:53,713\n請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣\n\n31\n00:11:09,711 --> 00:11:30,268\n好那最後我們來看一下那這個統計你們就是說從明天開始我就等於是今天問的嘛要統計才有辦法估算人力需求將幫助法官減壓那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎有辦法吧是可以啊因為這個都會有一定的處理方式那最後呢我們最後要提到就是原額啦\n\n32\n00:11:30,828 --> 00:11:48,782\n其實我們剛剛講到了司法官尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間你們往往在一個司法院院長的任內他其實就算透過人總給你們員額你們都不見得來得及補對不對那我們來看一下這個剛剛都提出來了目前你們還有數字沒有改是13900人變成15000人那麼其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%\n\n33\n00:11:56,167 --> 00:12:23,841\n司法院的員額是從13000人變成15000人,增加了快8%你覺得人總有沒有給予我們司法院較多的員額,讓你們解決問題,有沒有?那因為我們現在需求,像今天有提出表嘛,要5000...我知道啦,我說從整體來看啦,一個人口袋其他的小孩零用金都減了,給你的零用金是成長的,你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院?\n\n34\n00:12:25,841 --> 00:12:41,404\n處長報告委員現在這個是要講到一個嚴格就是在108年底的時候總原法修正當時雖然從一萬三千九提高為一萬五千人看起來是增加一千一百人但事實上當時司法院提出來的需要請證的緣合是兩萬兩千零六十八人我了解\n\n35\n00:12:41,884 --> 00:13:07,543\n平估後來的心智那果不出其然現在減縮為一萬五千人之後接下來的各項心智、憲法訴訟法那個國民法官法然後行政訴訟心智商業事件審理法等等的這一大堆心智增加法官工作負擔這個一千一百人現在證明就是杯水抽薪對不對在下明年要成立北部邵家法院很好處長你不用那麼上氣不接下氣我們都知道你們需求很大\n\n36\n00:13:08,183 --> 00:13:33,811\n但是今天整體中華民國中央政府原額是減7%的喔所以我要說的是說我們說話持平來論整個中央政府總原額法他是在縮減的但是給司法院的原額是要提高的但是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求這是你要講的嘛對不對好那我們往這方面來思考好但是除了時任法官之外法官有77條我們有憂鬱法官憂鬱法官有沒有記錄目前的原額有沒有\n\n37\n00:13:35,868 --> 00:13:57,656\n因為他還是有領人事費他是領三分之二上面寫不記錄該機關所定員額之內呢那是在指不記錄現有員額但是他還是記錄預算員額好那這個就是一個問題了嘛所以未來我們是不是可以把憂鬱的法官在員額的計算上跟人總商量不要計算在你們的機關員額或者不要再計算預算員額預算員額是誰是主計總處嘛對不對\n\n38\n00:14:02,498 --> 00:14:24,025\n人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛憲法81條的規定嘛是不是這樣\n\n39\n00:14:25,911 --> 00:14:51,414\n所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個緣額...應該不分年齡啦應該不分年齡因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個緣額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?\n\n40\n00:14:52,389 --> 00:14:52,489\n三管齊下\n\n41\n00:15:09,764 --> 00:15:20,789\n請司法院3個月內提出順便報告．合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量．並具以調配案量並評估未來能力需求．可以嗎\n\n42\n00:15:33,006 --> 00:15:44,939\n請司法院衡量10年內憂鬱法官控制的緣額,配合跟人事總署爭取,併入未來整體的緣額需求,並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置。\n\n43\n00:15:54,179 --> 00:15:54,199\n鍾佳濱\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n11499\t21788\t主席,謝謝主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關司法官員,會長工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請司法院吳秘書長,民視廳周庭長,還有人事處的陳處長,還有法務部的蔡部長請蔡部長\n31747\t57914\t秘書長好、部長好、廳長好、處長好先請教秘書長剛剛有委員問到在2016年有賴浩鳴院長、前院長跟蘇永青前副院長那麼他們向蔡英文總統辭職那請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況之下去表達是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任還是什麼原因\n60596\t79587\t當時雖然在五月份的時候有黨團提出訴求哪個黨團是時代力量黨團提出一個訴求就是希望說五月也是就是說有一個交接聲音大一點五月有一個交接然後呢就是希望說這兩位院長副院長辭職就五月份的時候但是\n80944\t99705\t當時的賴浩鳴司法院長他是在7月11號才請辭是總統沒有馬上處理就是要他為什麼請辭是因為新總統就任並不是他是因為什麼請辭那他可能當時有\n102096\t128246\t他任期到10月31號屆滿所以他：任期將屆請辭任期將屆但是總統也是到他要將屆之前4天10月27號才準時所以並沒有所謂的因為時代力量黨能提出說新總統就任要建立一個憲政慣例所以要求司法院政府院長向新任總統或像原任的總統請辭沒有啦沒有慣例所以那個賴浩鳴\n131067\t131467\t請問廳長是不是有這個情況?\n148703\t151505\t關於這一點我問過了保險局也問過了金管會他說他們曾經要說來修行政執行法來解決這個問題我先解釋一下什麼強制保單執行保單就是說\n177455\t207006\t那個藥保人他因為欠了債那他有一個保單在保險公司那裡結果債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約拿回這個保單的解約金或者準備金來抵付這個債務所以就申請強制執行大概部長這樣有沒有了解這是民事強制執行還是行政強制執行那你是負責行政強制執行行政執行法是哪裡\n210061\t226719\t行政執行法是因為他欠這個工的對包括欠稅也是所以金管會是希望你們修行政執行法改一下不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去了你覺得是不是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法\n227438\t241476\t我想都可以考慮啦都可以考慮好如果說可以來合理化願意配合好來那個秘書長那麼這一點呢我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權啊\n242858\t245961\t主約被解約,副約也消失,有人提出用介入權的方式,讓受益人可以介入來償付解約金,這樣的一個修法方向,司法院支持嗎?\n261780\t262401\t兩位請回\n284333\t302214\t我先請教一下秘書長部長請回有一個叫圖靈測試對不起我們看看這個這個民事執行量我們現在就是說與金管會保險局和受險公會來協調統一格式流程降低執行法院的壓力你同意嗎在這個修法之前先做這個事情\n302745\t308448\t有一個叫做圖靈測試要區分回答者是人還是機器人那請問一下秘書長你覺得法官是人類還是判決產生器\n325209\t351786\t這很簡單吧當然是人類嘛對不對好 所以我們來看一下司法官的養成要相當長的時間 以法官來說要這麼長的時間但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快所以就我們要解決目前的基案的案量您覺得法官 調整法官的緣額或培養來得比較迅速還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們的環境上的壓力\n355083\t355483\t很難回答來\n385243\t385423\t主席\n403513\t422684\t民事新增了314萬件 刑事新增了45萬件所以未結案就 未結案就增加96%啊是啊 你能夠辦結的就是躺平啦數量呢 增加的就在上面是惡意亂數還是我們立法者重型化還是案件複雜化造成的\n424793\t445574\t法院在不管怎樣是社會信賴的很重要的力量所以法院就被賦予各種要照料的書越來越多大家期待法院能夠把案量隨著案量的提高能夠把它辦結的能力也提高範圍也廣了恰恰相反直接躺平\n446397\t456608\t為什麼我們往下看我們常說上游缺水保下游土石流人力永遠不夠用你同意嗎是不是從源頭按量的控管比較重要\n460970\t476270\t所以我們底下提出這幾個方法比如說在刑事上我們加強行政處遇在民事上我們透過律師的諮詢強化調解在程序上加強審查減少訴訟量一審量少上訴量就能減少你覺得這有沒有幫助\n480332\t501429\t這個應該一些有效率的方式這些應該都會有幫助的所以你都支持好那我們來看一下訴訟減量行政簡化已經部分上路了你們有沒有做人力評估的影響影響的評估成效如何有沒有有沒有評估說你們現在所做的這所有的訴訟減量跟行政簡化到底有沒有讓案源源頭的案量減少你們有沒有評估過\n502554\t518881\t因為最主要暗眼有時候我們無法控制啊你們有沒有控制那你怎麼知道你的有人要說對症下藥啊你今天看到暗量一直成長你們祭出了訴訟減量祭出了行政簡化結果祭出的手法還是沒法壓下來\n519881\t532011\t那你這個對症就沒有下藥啦所以就有另外一種要限量困難的聲音就你們有沒有自己評估過當你們下了這個藥的時候病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化你們有沒有做這個評估\n533755\t552740\t如果你沒有做這評估,你不斷地下藥下藥,結果呢案例一直成長成長,你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效?那最主要在司法機關是很無奈啊,案言一直來啊,因為法令負擬啊,照料就輸也沒多啊我們科學方法啦,你面對問題你提出解方\n553380\t578616\t解方有沒有造成問題沒有繼續惡化也要評估嘛對不對請你們回去做評估來為了要減少訴訟讓法官能專注我們的審判核心業務我們提出了透過包括了我們智慧科技來形成筆錄在確保治安的前提之下我們讓這個摘要的調查意見資料能夠用這個方式還有簡化判決書啊書狀的格式化那你認為這些有沒有幫助\n579411\t579671\t法官不是機器人\n601527\t625916\t有合理的工作才有裁判品質目前你們是有說一個你們有一個怎樣司法週刊說怎樣你們要去衡量法官的工作量案量對不對案量結案量那請問一下結案100件跟結案10件哪一件哪一個效率高那結案100件跟結案10件兩個法官你認為誰的效率好\n628018\t649289\t當然要合理的結案品質才會好是 那你們有沒有評估所以你們目前這一個量化的數字叫做結案量這對法官壓力很大啊有沒有分類不同的案件他可能不需要不同的工作量所以是不是用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量 是不是這樣子\n650449\t653713\t請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣\n669711\t690268\t好 那最後我們來看一下那這個統計你們就是說從明天開始我就等於是今天問的嘛要統計才有辦法估算人力需求將幫助法官減壓那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎 有辦法吧是可以啊 因為這個都會有一定的處理方式那最後呢 我們最後要提到就是原額啦\n690828\t708782\t其實我們剛剛講到了司法官尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間你們往往在一個司法院院長的任內他其實就算透過人總給你們員額你們都不見得來得及補對不對那我們來看一下這個剛剛都提出來了目前你們還有數字沒有改是13900人變成15000人那麼其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%\n716167\t743841\t司法院的員額是從13000人變成15000人,增加了快8%你覺得人總有沒有給予我們司法院較多的員額,讓你們解決問題,有沒有?那因為我們現在需求,像今天有提出表嘛,要5000...我知道啦,我說從整體來看啦,一個人口袋其他的小孩零用金都減了,給你的零用金是成長的,你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院?\n745841\t761404\t處長報告委員現在這個是要講到一個嚴格就是在108年底的時候總原法修正當時雖然從一萬三千九提高為一萬五千人看起來是增加一千一百人但事實上當時司法院提出來的需要請證的緣合是兩萬兩千零六十八人我了解\n761884\t787543\t平估後來的心智那果不出其然現在減縮為一萬五千人之後接下來的各項心智、憲法訴訟法那個國民法官法然後行政訴訟心智商業事件審理法等等的這一大堆心智增加法官工作負擔這個一千一百人現在證明就是杯水抽薪對不對在下明年要成立北部邵家法院很好 處長你不用那麼上氣不接下氣我們都知道你們需求很大\n788183\t813811\t但是今天整體中華民國中央政府原額是減7%的喔所以我要說的是說我們說話持平來論整個中央政府總原額法他是在縮減的但是給司法院的原額是要提高的但是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求這是你要講的嘛 對不對好 那我們往這方面來思考好 但是除了時任法官之外法官有77條 我們有憂鬱法官憂鬱法官有沒有記錄目前的原額 有沒有\n815868\t837656\t因為他還是有領人事費他是領三分之二上面寫不記錄該機關所定員額之內呢那是在指不記錄現有員額但是他還是記錄預算員額好那這個就是一個問題了嘛所以未來我們是不是可以把憂鬱的法官在員額的計算上跟人總商量不要計算在你們的機關員額或者不要再計算預算員額預算員額是誰是主計總處嘛對不對\n842498\t864025\t人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些 所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛憲法81條的規定嘛 是不是這樣\n865911\t891414\t所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個緣額...應該不分年齡啦應該不分年齡因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個緣額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?\n892389\t892489\t三管齊下\n909764\t920789\t請司法院3個月內提出順便報告．合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量．並具以調配案量並評估未來能力需求．可以嗎\n933006\t944939\t請司法院衡量10年內憂鬱法官控制的緣額,配合跟人事總署爭取,併入未來整體的緣額需求,並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置。\n954179\t954199\t鍾佳濱\n","txt":"主席,謝謝主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關司法官員,會長工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請司法院吳秘書長,民視廳周庭長,還有人事處的陳處長,還有法務部的蔡部長請蔡部長\n秘書長好、部長好、廳長好、處長好先請教秘書長剛剛有委員問到在2016年有賴浩鳴院長、前院長跟蘇永青前副院長那麼他們向蔡英文總統辭職那請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況之下去表達是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任還是什麼原因\n當時雖然在五月份的時候有黨團提出訴求哪個黨團是時代力量黨團提出一個訴求就是希望說五月也是就是說有一個交接聲音大一點五月有一個交接然後呢就是希望說這兩位院長副院長辭職就五月份的時候但是\n當時的賴浩鳴司法院長他是在7月11號才請辭是總統沒有馬上處理就是要他為什麼請辭是因為新總統就任並不是他是因為什麼請辭那他可能當時有\n他任期到10月31號屆滿所以他：任期將屆請辭任期將屆但是總統也是到他要將屆之前4天10月27號才準時所以並沒有所謂的因為時代力量黨能提出說新總統就任要建立一個憲政慣例所以要求司法院政府院長向新任總統或像原任的總統請辭沒有啦沒有慣例所以那個賴浩鳴\n請問廳長是不是有這個情況?\n關於這一點我問過了保險局也問過了金管會他說他們曾經要說來修行政執行法來解決這個問題我先解釋一下什麼強制保單執行保單就是說\n那個藥保人他因為欠了債那他有一個保單在保險公司那裡結果債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約拿回這個保單的解約金或者準備金來抵付這個債務所以就申請強制執行大概部長這樣有沒有了解這是民事強制執行還是行政強制執行那你是負責行政強制執行行政執行法是哪裡\n行政執行法是因為他欠這個工的對包括欠稅也是所以金管會是希望你們修行政執行法改一下不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去了你覺得是不是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法\n我想都可以考慮啦都可以考慮好如果說可以來合理化願意配合好來那個秘書長那麼這一點呢我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權啊\n主約被解約,副約也消失,有人提出用介入權的方式,讓受益人可以介入來償付解約金,這樣的一個修法方向,司法院支持嗎?\n兩位請回\n我先請教一下秘書長部長請回有一個叫圖靈測試對不起我們看看這個這個民事執行量我們現在就是說與金管會保險局和受險公會來協調統一格式流程降低執行法院的壓力你同意嗎在這個修法之前先做這個事情\n有一個叫做圖靈測試要區分回答者是人還是機器人那請問一下秘書長你覺得法官是人類還是判決產生器\n這很簡單吧當然是人類嘛對不對好 所以我們來看一下司法官的養成要相當長的時間 以法官來說要這麼長的時間但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快所以就我們要解決目前的基案的案量您覺得法官 調整法官的緣額或培養來得比較迅速還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們的環境上的壓力\n很難回答來\n主席\n民事新增了314萬件 刑事新增了45萬件所以未結案就 未結案就增加96%啊是啊 你能夠辦結的就是躺平啦數量呢 增加的就在上面是惡意亂數還是我們立法者重型化還是案件複雜化造成的\n法院在不管怎樣是社會信賴的很重要的力量所以法院就被賦予各種要照料的書越來越多大家期待法院能夠把案量隨著案量的提高能夠把它辦結的能力也提高範圍也廣了恰恰相反直接躺平\n為什麼我們往下看我們常說上游缺水保下游土石流人力永遠不夠用你同意嗎是不是從源頭按量的控管比較重要\n所以我們底下提出這幾個方法比如說在刑事上我們加強行政處遇在民事上我們透過律師的諮詢強化調解在程序上加強審查減少訴訟量一審量少上訴量就能減少你覺得這有沒有幫助\n這個應該一些有效率的方式這些應該都會有幫助的所以你都支持好那我們來看一下訴訟減量行政簡化已經部分上路了你們有沒有做人力評估的影響影響的評估成效如何有沒有有沒有評估說你們現在所做的這所有的訴訟減量跟行政簡化到底有沒有讓案源源頭的案量減少你們有沒有評估過\n因為最主要暗眼有時候我們無法控制啊你們有沒有控制那你怎麼知道你的有人要說對症下藥啊你今天看到暗量一直成長你們祭出了訴訟減量祭出了行政簡化結果祭出的手法還是沒法壓下來\n那你這個對症就沒有下藥啦所以就有另外一種要限量困難的聲音就你們有沒有自己評估過當你們下了這個藥的時候病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化你們有沒有做這個評估\n如果你沒有做這評估,你不斷地下藥下藥,結果呢案例一直成長成長,你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效?那最主要在司法機關是很無奈啊,案言一直來啊,因為法令負擬啊,照料就輸也沒多啊我們科學方法啦,你面對問題你提出解方\n解方有沒有造成問題沒有繼續惡化也要評估嘛對不對請你們回去做評估來為了要減少訴訟讓法官能專注我們的審判核心業務我們提出了透過包括了我們智慧科技來形成筆錄在確保治安的前提之下我們讓這個摘要的調查意見資料能夠用這個方式還有簡化判決書啊書狀的格式化那你認為這些有沒有幫助\n法官不是機器人\n有合理的工作才有裁判品質目前你們是有說一個你們有一個怎樣司法週刊說怎樣你們要去衡量法官的工作量案量對不對案量結案量那請問一下結案100件跟結案10件哪一件哪一個效率高那結案100件跟結案10件兩個法官你認為誰的效率好\n當然要合理的結案品質才會好是 那你們有沒有評估所以你們目前這一個量化的數字叫做結案量這對法官壓力很大啊有沒有分類不同的案件他可能不需要不同的工作量所以是不是用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量 是不是這樣子\n請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣\n好 那最後我們來看一下那這個統計你們就是說從明天開始我就等於是今天問的嘛要統計才有辦法估算人力需求將幫助法官減壓那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎 有辦法吧是可以啊 因為這個都會有一定的處理方式那最後呢 我們最後要提到就是原額啦\n其實我們剛剛講到了司法官尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間你們往往在一個司法院院長的任內他其實就算透過人總給你們員額你們都不見得來得及補對不對那我們來看一下這個剛剛都提出來了目前你們還有數字沒有改是13900人變成15000人那麼其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%\n司法院的員額是從13000人變成15000人,增加了快8%你覺得人總有沒有給予我們司法院較多的員額,讓你們解決問題,有沒有?那因為我們現在需求,像今天有提出表嘛,要5000...我知道啦,我說從整體來看啦,一個人口袋其他的小孩零用金都減了,給你的零用金是成長的,你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院?\n處長報告委員現在這個是要講到一個嚴格就是在108年底的時候總原法修正當時雖然從一萬三千九提高為一萬五千人看起來是增加一千一百人但事實上當時司法院提出來的需要請證的緣合是兩萬兩千零六十八人我了解\n平估後來的心智那果不出其然現在減縮為一萬五千人之後接下來的各項心智、憲法訴訟法那個國民法官法然後行政訴訟心智商業事件審理法等等的這一大堆心智增加法官工作負擔這個一千一百人現在證明就是杯水抽薪對不對在下明年要成立北部邵家法院很好 處長你不用那麼上氣不接下氣我們都知道你們需求很大\n但是今天整體中華民國中央政府原額是減7%的喔所以我要說的是說我們說話持平來論整個中央政府總原額法他是在縮減的但是給司法院的原額是要提高的但是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求這是你要講的嘛 對不對好 那我們往這方面來思考好 但是除了時任法官之外法官有77條 我們有憂鬱法官憂鬱法官有沒有記錄目前的原額 有沒有\n因為他還是有領人事費他是領三分之二上面寫不記錄該機關所定員額之內呢那是在指不記錄現有員額但是他還是記錄預算員額好那這個就是一個問題了嘛所以未來我們是不是可以把憂鬱的法官在員額的計算上跟人總商量不要計算在你們的機關員額或者不要再計算預算員額預算員額是誰是主計總處嘛對不對\n人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些 所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛憲法81條的規定嘛 是不是這樣\n所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個緣額...應該不分年齡啦應該不分年齡因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個緣額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?\n三管齊下\n請司法院3個月內提出順便報告．合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量．並具以調配案量並評估未來能力需求．可以嗎\n請司法院衡量10年內憂鬱法官控制的緣額,配合跟人事總署爭取,併入未來整體的緣額需求,並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置。\n鍾佳濱\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:11.499 --> 00:21.788\n主席,謝謝主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關司法官員,會長工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請司法院吳秘書長,民視廳周庭長,還有人事處的陳處長,還有法務部的蔡部長請蔡部長\n\n00:31.747 --> 00:57.914\n秘書長好、部長好、廳長好、處長好先請教秘書長剛剛有委員問到在2016年有賴浩鳴院長、前院長跟蘇永青前副院長那麼他們向蔡英文總統辭職那請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況之下去表達是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任還是什麼原因\n\n01:00.596 --> 01:19.587\n當時雖然在五月份的時候有黨團提出訴求哪個黨團是時代力量黨團提出一個訴求就是希望說五月也是就是說有一個交接聲音大一點五月有一個交接然後呢就是希望說這兩位院長副院長辭職就五月份的時候但是\n\n01:20.944 --> 01:39.705\n當時的賴浩鳴司法院長他是在7月11號才請辭是總統沒有馬上處理就是要他為什麼請辭是因為新總統就任並不是他是因為什麼請辭那他可能當時有\n\n01:42.096 --> 02:08.246\n他任期到10月31號屆滿所以他：任期將屆請辭任期將屆但是總統也是到他要將屆之前4天10月27號才準時所以並沒有所謂的因為時代力量黨能提出說新總統就任要建立一個憲政慣例所以要求司法院政府院長向新任總統或像原任的總統請辭沒有啦沒有慣例所以那個賴浩鳴\n\n02:11.067 --> 02:11.467\n請問廳長是不是有這個情況?\n\n02:28.703 --> 02:31.505\n關於這一點我問過了保險局也問過了金管會他說他們曾經要說來修行政執行法來解決這個問題我先解釋一下什麼強制保單執行保單就是說\n\n02:57.455 --> 03:27.006\n那個藥保人他因為欠了債那他有一個保單在保險公司那裡結果債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約拿回這個保單的解約金或者準備金來抵付這個債務所以就申請強制執行大概部長這樣有沒有了解這是民事強制執行還是行政強制執行那你是負責行政強制執行行政執行法是哪裡\n\n03:30.061 --> 03:46.719\n行政執行法是因為他欠這個工的對包括欠稅也是所以金管會是希望你們修行政執行法改一下不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去了你覺得是不是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法\n\n03:47.438 --> 04:01.476\n我想都可以考慮啦都可以考慮好如果說可以來合理化願意配合好來那個秘書長那麼這一點呢我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權啊\n\n04:02.858 --> 04:05.961\n主約被解約,副約也消失,有人提出用介入權的方式,讓受益人可以介入來償付解約金,這樣的一個修法方向,司法院支持嗎?\n\n04:21.780 --> 04:22.401\n兩位請回\n\n04:44.333 --> 05:02.214\n我先請教一下秘書長部長請回有一個叫圖靈測試對不起我們看看這個這個民事執行量我們現在就是說與金管會保險局和受險公會來協調統一格式流程降低執行法院的壓力你同意嗎在這個修法之前先做這個事情\n\n05:02.745 --> 05:08.448\n有一個叫做圖靈測試要區分回答者是人還是機器人那請問一下秘書長你覺得法官是人類還是判決產生器\n\n05:25.209 --> 05:51.786\n這很簡單吧當然是人類嘛對不對好所以我們來看一下司法官的養成要相當長的時間以法官來說要這麼長的時間但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快所以就我們要解決目前的基案的案量您覺得法官調整法官的緣額或培養來得比較迅速還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們的環境上的壓力\n\n05:55.083 --> 05:55.483\n很難回答來\n\n06:25.243 --> 06:25.423\n主席\n\n06:43.513 --> 07:02.684\n民事新增了314萬件刑事新增了45萬件所以未結案就未結案就增加96%啊是啊你能夠辦結的就是躺平啦數量呢增加的就在上面是惡意亂數還是我們立法者重型化還是案件複雜化造成的\n\n07:04.793 --> 07:25.574\n法院在不管怎樣是社會信賴的很重要的力量所以法院就被賦予各種要照料的書越來越多大家期待法院能夠把案量隨著案量的提高能夠把它辦結的能力也提高範圍也廣了恰恰相反直接躺平\n\n07:26.397 --> 07:36.608\n為什麼我們往下看我們常說上游缺水保下游土石流人力永遠不夠用你同意嗎是不是從源頭按量的控管比較重要\n\n07:40.970 --> 07:56.270\n所以我們底下提出這幾個方法比如說在刑事上我們加強行政處遇在民事上我們透過律師的諮詢強化調解在程序上加強審查減少訴訟量一審量少上訴量就能減少你覺得這有沒有幫助\n\n08:00.332 --> 08:21.429\n這個應該一些有效率的方式這些應該都會有幫助的所以你都支持好那我們來看一下訴訟減量行政簡化已經部分上路了你們有沒有做人力評估的影響影響的評估成效如何有沒有有沒有評估說你們現在所做的這所有的訴訟減量跟行政簡化到底有沒有讓案源源頭的案量減少你們有沒有評估過\n\n08:22.554 --> 08:38.881\n因為最主要暗眼有時候我們無法控制啊你們有沒有控制那你怎麼知道你的有人要說對症下藥啊你今天看到暗量一直成長你們祭出了訴訟減量祭出了行政簡化結果祭出的手法還是沒法壓下來\n\n08:39.881 --> 08:52.011\n那你這個對症就沒有下藥啦所以就有另外一種要限量困難的聲音就你們有沒有自己評估過當你們下了這個藥的時候病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化你們有沒有做這個評估\n\n08:53.755 --> 09:12.740\n如果你沒有做這評估,你不斷地下藥下藥,結果呢案例一直成長成長,你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效?那最主要在司法機關是很無奈啊,案言一直來啊,因為法令負擬啊,照料就輸也沒多啊我們科學方法啦,你面對問題你提出解方\n\n09:13.380 --> 09:38.616\n解方有沒有造成問題沒有繼續惡化也要評估嘛對不對請你們回去做評估來為了要減少訴訟讓法官能專注我們的審判核心業務我們提出了透過包括了我們智慧科技來形成筆錄在確保治安的前提之下我們讓這個摘要的調查意見資料能夠用這個方式還有簡化判決書啊書狀的格式化那你認為這些有沒有幫助\n\n09:39.411 --> 09:39.671\n法官不是機器人\n\n10:01.527 --> 10:25.916\n有合理的工作才有裁判品質目前你們是有說一個你們有一個怎樣司法週刊說怎樣你們要去衡量法官的工作量案量對不對案量結案量那請問一下結案100件跟結案10件哪一件哪一個效率高那結案100件跟結案10件兩個法官你認為誰的效率好\n\n10:28.018 --> 10:49.289\n當然要合理的結案品質才會好是那你們有沒有評估所以你們目前這一個量化的數字叫做結案量這對法官壓力很大啊有沒有分類不同的案件他可能不需要不同的工作量所以是不是用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量是不是這樣子\n\n10:50.449 --> 10:53.713\n請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣\n\n11:09.711 --> 11:30.268\n好那最後我們來看一下那這個統計你們就是說從明天開始我就等於是今天問的嘛要統計才有辦法估算人力需求將幫助法官減壓那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎有辦法吧是可以啊因為這個都會有一定的處理方式那最後呢我們最後要提到就是原額啦\n\n11:30.828 --> 11:48.782\n其實我們剛剛講到了司法官尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間你們往往在一個司法院院長的任內他其實就算透過人總給你們員額你們都不見得來得及補對不對那我們來看一下這個剛剛都提出來了目前你們還有數字沒有改是13900人變成15000人那麼其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%\n\n11:56.167 --> 12:23.841\n司法院的員額是從13000人變成15000人,增加了快8%你覺得人總有沒有給予我們司法院較多的員額,讓你們解決問題,有沒有?那因為我們現在需求,像今天有提出表嘛,要5000...我知道啦,我說從整體來看啦,一個人口袋其他的小孩零用金都減了,給你的零用金是成長的,你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院?\n\n12:25.841 --> 12:41.404\n處長報告委員現在這個是要講到一個嚴格就是在108年底的時候總原法修正當時雖然從一萬三千九提高為一萬五千人看起來是增加一千一百人但事實上當時司法院提出來的需要請證的緣合是兩萬兩千零六十八人我了解\n\n12:41.884 --> 13:07.543\n平估後來的心智那果不出其然現在減縮為一萬五千人之後接下來的各項心智、憲法訴訟法那個國民法官法然後行政訴訟心智商業事件審理法等等的這一大堆心智增加法官工作負擔這個一千一百人現在證明就是杯水抽薪對不對在下明年要成立北部邵家法院很好處長你不用那麼上氣不接下氣我們都知道你們需求很大\n\n13:08.183 --> 13:33.811\n但是今天整體中華民國中央政府原額是減7%的喔所以我要說的是說我們說話持平來論整個中央政府總原額法他是在縮減的但是給司法院的原額是要提高的但是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求這是你要講的嘛對不對好那我們往這方面來思考好但是除了時任法官之外法官有77條我們有憂鬱法官憂鬱法官有沒有記錄目前的原額有沒有\n\n13:35.868 --> 13:57.656\n因為他還是有領人事費他是領三分之二上面寫不記錄該機關所定員額之內呢那是在指不記錄現有員額但是他還是記錄預算員額好那這個就是一個問題了嘛所以未來我們是不是可以把憂鬱的法官在員額的計算上跟人總商量不要計算在你們的機關員額或者不要再計算預算員額預算員額是誰是主計總處嘛對不對\n\n14:02.498 --> 14:24.025\n人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛憲法81條的規定嘛是不是這樣\n\n14:25.911 --> 14:51.414\n所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個緣額...應該不分年齡啦應該不分年齡因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個緣額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?\n\n14:52.389 --> 14:52.489\n三管齊下\n\n15:09.764 --> 15:20.789\n請司法院3個月內提出順便報告．合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量．並具以調配案量並評估未來能力需求．可以嗎\n\n15:33.006 --> 15:44.939\n請司法院衡量10年內憂鬱法官控制的緣額,配合跟人事總署爭取,併入未來整體的緣額需求,並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置。\n\n15:54.179 --> 15:54.199\n鍾佳濱\n\n","segments":[{"start":11.499,"end":21.788,"text":"主席,謝謝主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關司法官員,會長工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請司法院吳秘書長,民視廳周庭長,還有人事處的陳處長,還有法務部的蔡部長請蔡部長"},{"start":31.747,"end":57.914,"text":"秘書長好、部長好、廳長好、處長好先請教秘書長剛剛有委員問到在2016年有賴浩鳴院長、前院長跟蘇永青前副院長那麼他們向蔡英文總統辭職那請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況之下去表達是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任還是什麼原因"},{"start":60.596,"end":79.587,"text":"當時雖然在五月份的時候有黨團提出訴求哪個黨團是時代力量黨團提出一個訴求就是希望說五月也是就是說有一個交接聲音大一點五月有一個交接然後呢就是希望說這兩位院長副院長辭職就五月份的時候但是"},{"start":80.944,"end":99.705,"text":"當時的賴浩鳴司法院長他是在7月11號才請辭是總統沒有馬上處理就是要他為什麼請辭是因為新總統就任並不是他是因為什麼請辭那他可能當時有"},{"start":102.096,"end":128.246,"text":"他任期到10月31號屆滿所以他：任期將屆請辭任期將屆但是總統也是到他要將屆之前4天10月27號才準時所以並沒有所謂的因為時代力量黨能提出說新總統就任要建立一個憲政慣例所以要求司法院政府院長向新任總統或像原任的總統請辭沒有啦沒有慣例所以那個賴浩鳴"},{"start":131.067,"end":131.467,"text":"請問廳長是不是有這個情況?"},{"start":148.703,"end":151.505,"text":"關於這一點我問過了保險局也問過了金管會他說他們曾經要說來修行政執行法來解決這個問題我先解釋一下什麼強制保單執行保單就是說"},{"start":177.455,"end":207.006,"text":"那個藥保人他因為欠了債那他有一個保單在保險公司那裡結果債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約拿回這個保單的解約金或者準備金來抵付這個債務所以就申請強制執行大概部長這樣有沒有了解這是民事強制執行還是行政強制執行那你是負責行政強制執行行政執行法是哪裡"},{"start":210.061,"end":226.719,"text":"行政執行法是因為他欠這個工的對包括欠稅也是所以金管會是希望你們修行政執行法改一下不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去了你覺得是不是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法"},{"start":227.438,"end":241.476,"text":"我想都可以考慮啦都可以考慮好如果說可以來合理化願意配合好來那個秘書長那麼這一點呢我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權啊"},{"start":242.858,"end":245.961,"text":"主約被解約,副約也消失,有人提出用介入權的方式,讓受益人可以介入來償付解約金,這樣的一個修法方向,司法院支持嗎?"},{"start":261.78,"end":262.401,"text":"兩位請回"},{"start":284.333,"end":302.214,"text":"我先請教一下秘書長部長請回有一個叫圖靈測試對不起我們看看這個這個民事執行量我們現在就是說與金管會保險局和受險公會來協調統一格式流程降低執行法院的壓力你同意嗎在這個修法之前先做這個事情"},{"start":302.745,"end":308.448,"text":"有一個叫做圖靈測試要區分回答者是人還是機器人那請問一下秘書長你覺得法官是人類還是判決產生器"},{"start":325.209,"end":351.786,"text":"這很簡單吧當然是人類嘛對不對好 所以我們來看一下司法官的養成要相當長的時間 以法官來說要這麼長的時間但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快所以就我們要解決目前的基案的案量您覺得法官 調整法官的緣額或培養來得比較迅速還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們的環境上的壓力"},{"start":355.083,"end":355.483,"text":"很難回答來"},{"start":385.243,"end":385.423,"text":"主席"},{"start":403.513,"end":422.684,"text":"民事新增了314萬件 刑事新增了45萬件所以未結案就 未結案就增加96%啊是啊 你能夠辦結的就是躺平啦數量呢 增加的就在上面是惡意亂數還是我們立法者重型化還是案件複雜化造成的"},{"start":424.793,"end":445.574,"text":"法院在不管怎樣是社會信賴的很重要的力量所以法院就被賦予各種要照料的書越來越多大家期待法院能夠把案量隨著案量的提高能夠把它辦結的能力也提高範圍也廣了恰恰相反直接躺平"},{"start":446.397,"end":456.608,"text":"為什麼我們往下看我們常說上游缺水保下游土石流人力永遠不夠用你同意嗎是不是從源頭按量的控管比較重要"},{"start":460.97,"end":476.27,"text":"所以我們底下提出這幾個方法比如說在刑事上我們加強行政處遇在民事上我們透過律師的諮詢強化調解在程序上加強審查減少訴訟量一審量少上訴量就能減少你覺得這有沒有幫助"},{"start":480.332,"end":501.429,"text":"這個應該一些有效率的方式這些應該都會有幫助的所以你都支持好那我們來看一下訴訟減量行政簡化已經部分上路了你們有沒有做人力評估的影響影響的評估成效如何有沒有有沒有評估說你們現在所做的這所有的訴訟減量跟行政簡化到底有沒有讓案源源頭的案量減少你們有沒有評估過"},{"start":502.554,"end":518.881,"text":"因為最主要暗眼有時候我們無法控制啊你們有沒有控制那你怎麼知道你的有人要說對症下藥啊你今天看到暗量一直成長你們祭出了訴訟減量祭出了行政簡化結果祭出的手法還是沒法壓下來"},{"start":519.881,"end":532.011,"text":"那你這個對症就沒有下藥啦所以就有另外一種要限量困難的聲音就你們有沒有自己評估過當你們下了這個藥的時候病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化你們有沒有做這個評估"},{"start":533.755,"end":552.74,"text":"如果你沒有做這評估,你不斷地下藥下藥,結果呢案例一直成長成長,你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效?那最主要在司法機關是很無奈啊,案言一直來啊,因為法令負擬啊,照料就輸也沒多啊我們科學方法啦,你面對問題你提出解方"},{"start":553.38,"end":578.616,"text":"解方有沒有造成問題沒有繼續惡化也要評估嘛對不對請你們回去做評估來為了要減少訴訟讓法官能專注我們的審判核心業務我們提出了透過包括了我們智慧科技來形成筆錄在確保治安的前提之下我們讓這個摘要的調查意見資料能夠用這個方式還有簡化判決書啊書狀的格式化那你認為這些有沒有幫助"},{"start":579.411,"end":579.671,"text":"法官不是機器人"},{"start":601.527,"end":625.916,"text":"有合理的工作才有裁判品質目前你們是有說一個你們有一個怎樣司法週刊說怎樣你們要去衡量法官的工作量案量對不對案量結案量那請問一下結案100件跟結案10件哪一件哪一個效率高那結案100件跟結案10件兩個法官你認為誰的效率好"},{"start":628.018,"end":649.289,"text":"當然要合理的結案品質才會好是 那你們有沒有評估所以你們目前這一個量化的數字叫做結案量這對法官壓力很大啊有沒有分類不同的案件他可能不需要不同的工作量所以是不是用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量 是不是這樣子"},{"start":650.449,"end":653.713,"text":"請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣"},{"start":669.711,"end":690.268,"text":"好 那最後我們來看一下那這個統計你們就是說從明天開始我就等於是今天問的嘛要統計才有辦法估算人力需求將幫助法官減壓那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎 有辦法吧是可以啊 因為這個都會有一定的處理方式那最後呢 我們最後要提到就是原額啦"},{"start":690.828,"end":708.782,"text":"其實我們剛剛講到了司法官尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間你們往往在一個司法院院長的任內他其實就算透過人總給你們員額你們都不見得來得及補對不對那我們來看一下這個剛剛都提出來了目前你們還有數字沒有改是13900人變成15000人那麼其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%"},{"start":716.167,"end":743.841,"text":"司法院的員額是從13000人變成15000人,增加了快8%你覺得人總有沒有給予我們司法院較多的員額,讓你們解決問題,有沒有?那因為我們現在需求,像今天有提出表嘛,要5000...我知道啦,我說從整體來看啦,一個人口袋其他的小孩零用金都減了,給你的零用金是成長的,你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院?"},{"start":745.841,"end":761.404,"text":"處長報告委員現在這個是要講到一個嚴格就是在108年底的時候總原法修正當時雖然從一萬三千九提高為一萬五千人看起來是增加一千一百人但事實上當時司法院提出來的需要請證的緣合是兩萬兩千零六十八人我了解"},{"start":761.884,"end":787.543,"text":"平估後來的心智那果不出其然現在減縮為一萬五千人之後接下來的各項心智、憲法訴訟法那個國民法官法然後行政訴訟心智商業事件審理法等等的這一大堆心智增加法官工作負擔這個一千一百人現在證明就是杯水抽薪對不對在下明年要成立北部邵家法院很好 處長你不用那麼上氣不接下氣我們都知道你們需求很大"},{"start":788.183,"end":813.811,"text":"但是今天整體中華民國中央政府原額是減7%的喔所以我要說的是說我們說話持平來論整個中央政府總原額法他是在縮減的但是給司法院的原額是要提高的但是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求這是你要講的嘛 對不對好 那我們往這方面來思考好 但是除了時任法官之外法官有77條 我們有憂鬱法官憂鬱法官有沒有記錄目前的原額 有沒有"},{"start":815.868,"end":837.656,"text":"因為他還是有領人事費他是領三分之二上面寫不記錄該機關所定員額之內呢那是在指不記錄現有員額但是他還是記錄預算員額好那這個就是一個問題了嘛所以未來我們是不是可以把憂鬱的法官在員額的計算上跟人總商量不要計算在你們的機關員額或者不要再計算預算員額預算員額是誰是主計總處嘛對不對"},{"start":842.498,"end":864.025,"text":"人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些 所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛憲法81條的規定嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":865.911,"end":891.414,"text":"所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個緣額...應該不分年齡啦應該不分年齡因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個緣額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?"},{"start":892.389,"end":892.489,"text":"三管齊下"},{"start":909.764,"end":920.789,"text":"請司法院3個月內提出順便報告．合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量．並具以調配案量並評估未來能力需求．可以嗎"},{"start":933.006,"end":944.939,"text":"請司法院衡量10年內憂鬱法官控制的緣額,配合跟人事總署爭取,併入未來整體的緣額需求,並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置。"},{"start":954.179,"end":954.199,"text":"鍾佳濱"}]}}}}