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12:11:03","影片長度":"00:08:51","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":531,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:11:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:02:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":832,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時2分）請主委。"],["主席：好，有請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主委好。本席期待今天的對話，因為各位看起來都是很專業的人士，我們少一點政治，多一點專業，好不好？先請教你，從最近的狀況看起來，不管是延役或是重啟核能，其實美國、德國、日本都在做。主委，你有沒有注意到，最近連發生311福島核災的日本也重啟全球最大的核電廠。美國拜登政府剛剛通過，要提供15億美元貸款，重啟密西根州一座關閉的核電廠。","第三個，德國在烏俄戰爭以後，做了一個非常重要的決定，剛才那兩個國家都是停役以後重新開啟，對不對？現在德國是直接在烏俄戰爭開始以後，原訂除役的三座核電廠機組全部都延役。請教主委，站在安全的立場，臺灣現在需要的電量這麼大，德國能、日本能、美國能，臺灣現在能不能重啟核二或是讓核三延役？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這是很大的問題，是大家、社會關切的問題。我們都知道這麼多年來臺灣面臨了兩極的聲音，如果很好解決，我們今天就不用在這個地方討論。"],["張委員啓楷：對。因為你是專家，所以本席一開始就說了，本席當然知道這是政治事件，但是老實說，要不要延役或是重啟，基本上就在一線之間，對不對？主委，你有沒有注意到一件事，你對美國智庫專家Jordan Mcgillis應該很熟悉，對不對？昨天這位專門研究核能的專家直接說了，第一個，他說臺灣承受不起缺電，因為我們現在在發展半導體嘛！","你看，台積電每次擴廠或者蓋新廠，需要多少電？他說到一個非常關鍵的地方，賴清德，就是我們的總統當選人，一定要趁機趕快調整廢核的政策。老實說這件事就在一念之間，所以本席今天才會請教你，從專業的角度來看，因為你們負責安全，對不對？本席的意思是，不管是核三廠延役或是核二廠重啟，你們在安全上可以提供很專業的意見，可以確保安全嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：安全的部分是要去努力的，它無法做完全的保證。委員，我沒有要辯論的意思。"],["張委員啓楷：本席知道，這部分當然要尊重你們的專業。"],["陳主任委員東陽：包括人為疏失、天災、地震，它總是有風險，這其實也是另外一種聲音的依據。因為它會有這樣的風險，我沒有辦法告訴你一定安全或一定不安全，即便是每次地震，其實我們都很擔心，也要趕快看一下到底有沒有什麼樣的問題，這也是社會大眾關心、關切的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：現在經濟是我們發展的命脈，本席本身也在經濟委員會，所以今天特別來問你這件事情。本席剛才特別說到，半導體的發展太重要了，包括台積電都要到嘉義設廠，所以對於用水、用電，本席都非常注意。當然，因為這個議題就在一線之間，民進黨政府到底要不要做？","本席認為如果民進黨政府想要讓核三延役，相信各部門很快就可以行動；如果沒有的話，現在在野黨都在努力，很多立委也有提案。本席直接請教你，例如有人提案讓核三廠可以直接延長使用，對不對？他的提案就是將條文中的除役時間往後拉，可是本席看到條文中會碰到一個問題，就是要在5年前提出來，對不對？目前修法有辦法處理剛才說的這個問題嗎？就是要5年前提出來。"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法是一件事啦！但是核三廠1號機是7月27日停機，我們盤整了所有國外的案例，並沒有未核發執照就可以繼續延役的例子，這是我們目前在國際上所做的literature survey，也是對所有案例的觀察。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，剛才德國那個案例可不可以去了解一下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們去稍微了解一下，好。"],["張委員啓楷：如果德國能的話，本席相信臺灣也能啦！當然，安全仍然是第一啦！"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推延役，這是不可能的，一定要尊重專家的意見，可是德國這個例子可以參考一下，好不好？另外還有一個問題，本席找到一個解套的方式，我們民國98年曾經進行核一廠延役的程序，後來是因為日本遇到311福島事件，對不對？現在如果要重新啟動，98年這個模式是不是可以比照辦理？"],["陳主任委員東陽：委員是說核……"],["張委員啓楷：我們在民國98年有做核一廠的延役準備，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：委員是說核一廠嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["陳主任委員東陽：核一廠還是……"],["張委員啓楷：不是喔！現在不是說核一廠要延役。民國98年是討論核一廠延役，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["張委員啓楷：本席是說整個程序可以比照辦理。例如核三廠現在決定要延役的話，可以比照核一廠當時的狀況處理嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核一廠當時的狀態是在5年前處理，現在是在5年以內，因為核三廠只剩下幾個月的時間而已，情況不一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：所以沒有辦法比照？還是卡到5年的時間，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在看起來，除非政府要推動，然後各部會動起來，要不然的話，那個5年的規定就卡死了，是不是這樣？包括目前各黨所提的任何修法，5年這個問題是不是都解不開？"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法是比較大的議題，牽扯到很多層面，我剛才和不同的委員也做了一些報告，除了我們的核管法之外，它還牽扯到很多子法，彼此交錯連在一起，具體來說，如果要非常完備的話，其實需要很縝密的思考，要坐下來看，這是法律問題。"],["張委員啓楷：是法律問題，但也牽扯到很多專業知識。剛才孟楷委員問你，你也認為核電是一個減碳的能源，尤其是對臺灣現在的發展來說，我們需要更多電力。最後一個問題請教主委，如果核三的1號機或2號機要延役，或者是核二廠要重新啟動，到底有什麼辦法？除了卡到5年的時間之外。修法嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法是最重要的，當然還有一些技術上的問題，例如……"],["張委員啓楷：不好意思，修法要怎麼修？技術上又是怎麼樣？你們要提供意見。"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法怎麼修是……"],["張委員啓楷：本席現在只是問你的專業意見，無關專業的部分，或者有碰到政治的，你不用回答。完全去除政治因素，你現在可能會被問到兩個問題，有可能是執政黨的總統或是哪一位政府官員，最近就找你去問話，如果真的要延役或者除役，一定會問你的意見，對不對？也有可能是在野黨會請教你這個問題，太敏感的部分，你不用回答，沒有關係，本席問的是專業的問題。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這一題比較簡單。因為能源政策是經濟部主管，所以他不會問我啦！"],["張委員啓楷：核能安全是最重要的，總統一定會問你啦！"],["陳主任委員東陽：其實我們是核能安全管制機關，先向委員做個說明。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，你還是沒有回答本席的問題。你說總統不會問你，是嗎？如果是民間的力量呢？現在不是只有在野黨關心喔！你看，經濟部長一上任就說要解決缺電的問題，核能可能是其中一個考慮。產業、企業也提出，希望核能這個問題可以解決。現在除了修法之外，本席剛才問你，你說5年這個問題卡住了，那麼到底有沒有方法可以解套？"],["主席：張委員，不好意思，因為時間……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，馬上好。"],["主席：是不是會後提供書面報告？或者會後再向張委員答復，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：本席私底下再請教主委，感謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","請范委員雲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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{\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 334.634, \"end\": 334.654, \"score\": 0.003}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 334.654, \"end\": 334.794, \"score\": 0.811}, {\"word\": \"喔\", \"start\": 334.794, \"end\": 335.074, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 335.074, \"end\": 335.094, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 335.094, \"end\": 335.194, \"score\": 0.799}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 335.194, \"end\": 335.354, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"核\", \"start\": 335.354, \"end\": 335.474, \"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 335.474, \"end\": 335.494, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"廠\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 335.494, \"end\": 335.514, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 348.451, \"end\": 376.054, \"text\": \"那時候民國90年代是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對所以現在看起來第一回說政府說要塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 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\"因\", \"start\": 516.118, \"end\": 518.36, \"score\": 0.885}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"時\"}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 518.36, \"end\": 518.94, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 518.94, \"end\": 519.481, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 519.481, \"end\": 519.701, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 519.701, \"end\": 519.841, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 519.841, \"end\": 520.021, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 520.021, \"end\": 521.062, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 521.062, \"end\": 521.442, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"書\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 521.442, \"end\": 521.762, \"score\": 0.922}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 521.762, \"end\": 522.203, \"score\": 0.988}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 522.203, \"end\": 522.323, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 522.323, \"end\": 522.643, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 522.643, \"end\": 522.783, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 522.783, \"end\": 522.943, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"再\", \"start\": 522.943, \"end\": 523.164, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 523.164, \"end\": 523.784, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"張\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 523.784, \"end\": 523.984, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"打\", \"start\": 523.984, \"end\": 524.184, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"訊\"}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 524.184, \"end\": 524.204, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:12,875 --> 00:00:16,457\n我期待今天我們的對話因為今天看起來都是很專業的人士我們少一點點政治多一點專業好不好我先請教你最近看起來不管是要研立或者重啟這個核能美國、德國、日本都在做我先看第一張\n\n2\n00:00:41,161 --> 00:01:06,520\n注意你有注意到沒有最近年發生311福島核災的日本他都重啟全球最大的這個核電廠了然後看第二張來我們看一下美國拜登政府剛剛通過要提供15億的美元的貸款要重啟密西根州一座關閉以後的這個核電廠第三個我們再看一下\n\n3\n00:01:07,742 --> 00:01:33,461\n德國在烏俄戰爭之後他做了一個非常非常重要的決定剛剛那兩個都是停了以後重新開啟對不對現在德國是直接烏俄戰爭掉一個把原定要處理的三座核電廠基礎全部都研議了那我請教諸位若站在安全的這個立場你覺得台灣現在需要的電量這麼大德國能日本能美國能台灣現在\n\n4\n00:01:37,547 --> 00:01:40,025\n能不能重啟我們的核二或者是嚴厲我們的核三\n\n5\n00:01:42,320 --> 00:02:11,107\n這個是很大的問題啦就是大家社會很關切的問題那麼我們大概都知道我們台灣面臨了這個兩極的聲音就是這麼多年來那麼如果很好解決就我們今天不用在這個地方討論所以你是專家所以我剛才一開始說我常常同時知道是政敵的事件嘛像老實講要不要延續或者是重啟基本上都是一線之間啦對不對\n\n6\n00:02:12,403 --> 00:02:37,394\n注意一點,你對這個美國智庫的專家這個約頓·麥吉利斯應該很熟悉對不對他在昨天他直接美國智庫這個專家專門研究核能的他在這裡講啊他講到第一個台灣承受不起缺電因為我們現在在發展半導體嘛你看台積電那個每個擴廠每蓋一個新的要多少要多少的這個電他講一個非常非常關鍵的他說賴清德就是我們總統當選人\n\n7\n00:02:39,042 --> 00:02:54,156\n一定要趁機趕快調整肺核的這個政策然後講是一念之間所以我今天會請教若從專業的這個角度當然你肚子就安全嘛對不對我意思就是說不管是核三廠的研擬或者核二廠的重啟你們安全上可以提供很專業可以確保安全嗎\n\n8\n00:02:55,748 --> 00:03:22,005\n那個安全的部分是要去努力的那麼它不是可以完全的保證我委員沒有這個不是在變的意思那麼人為疏失那麼天災、地震那麼它總是有風險那這個其實也就是另外一個聲音的\n\n9\n00:03:22,705 --> 00:03:23,886\n所以其實現在經濟是我們發展這個命脈\n\n10\n00:03:47,088 --> 00:04:15,511\n我本身也在經濟委所以我今天特別來問你這個事情我剛才特別說了半導體這個發展太重要了包括台積電都要到我們嘉義去了用水這個用電我都非常非常的注意那目前我發現當然一線之間就是說民進黨政府到底要不要做我認為這樣啦如果民進黨政府後來想要核酸要研議了我相信各個部門很快就可以動了那如果沒有的話現在在野黨都在努力現在很多立委都已經提了案子我直接請教你了\n\n11\n00:04:16,260 --> 00:04:34,782\n包括已經有人提說讓河山廠可以直接延長對不對那他講的就是把條文裡面他研議的那個時間往後拉可是我看到條文裡面又碰到一個問題你差不多進警五年前要提出來對不對那目前這個修法有辦法去解決剛剛講要五年前提出來這個問題嗎\n\n12\n00:04:36,846 --> 00:04:47,554\n修法是一件事但是直到到期核三廠一號機是7月27我們去盤整了所有國外的案例\n\n13\n00:04:48,874 --> 00:05:17,285\n沒有說他還沒有核發執照就可以繼續研議這個是我們目前在國際上的LiteratureSurvey所有的案例的去觀察注意剛才提到那個那個可不可以追一下那個德國的是用我們去稍微瞭解一下好好不好如果德國能的話我相信台灣也能啦當然這個安全一定是第一啦我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推這個什麼不可能一定要尊重你們專家的意見\n\n14\n00:05:17,805 --> 00:05:35,514\n可是德國這個去參考一下很好另外還有一個問題我找到一個解套的方式是我們民國九十八年曾經進行核一廠這個研議的程序嘛因為他們是放在三一這個輔導這個事件嘛對不對那現在如果要重新啟動是不是98年這個模式可以比照辦理你是說委員是說我們在民國98年有做核一廠的那個研議的準備嘛對不對委員是說核一廠嘛對對對那種核一廠那還是不是喔現在不是說核一廠要\n\n15\n00:05:48,451 --> 00:06:16,054\n那時候民國90年代是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對所以現在看起來第一回說政府說要塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣\n\n16\n00:06:16,994 --> 00:06:23,328\n那包括目前各黨現在提任的修法這五年事情都解不開嗎?是不是都解不開?\n\n17\n00:06:24,878 --> 00:06:46,974\n修法是比較大的議題牽扯到很多層面我剛才跟不同的委員做一些報告除了我們的核關法之外牽扯到很多的執法交錯的連在一起具體來講要非常完備其實需要很整密的思考跟做下來看這是法律問題\n\n18\n00:06:49,264 --> 00:07:15,035\n法律問題也牽扯到很多專業嘛我剛才看你剛才內部在蒙尼神、孟楷在蒙尼你也認為說核電是一個減碳的能源嘛尤其現在對我們台灣的發電來說電是需要更多的電的所以最後一個問題我請教請教請教諸位所以如果真的要研議核三的一號機或者二號機或者是這個核二廠要重新的話\n\n19\n00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:20,773\n到底有什麼辦法?除了卡德納五年之外有什麼辦法?修法\n\n20\n00:07:21,966 --> 00:07:49,536\n修法是最重要的啦那當然還有一些技術上的問題不好意思修法怎麼修技術上怎麼樣因為你要提供意見我現在只問你專業你認為不是不合專業的有碰到政治的你不要回答我就是完全去除到政治的你現在有兩種可能會被問到同樣有問題有可能執政黨的政府比如說總統最近就出去了他如果說真的要做研議或者廚藝他就問你了對不對\n\n21\n00:07:50,856 --> 00:08:05,232\n那也有可能在野黨要請教你這個問題你太敏感你不用回答沒關係我問的是專業的問題先跟委員報告那個人員政策是經濟部啦所以他不會問我啦我們其實是核能安全的管理機關所以這個先跟委員做個說明\n\n22\n00:08:13,562 --> 00:08:34,497\n抱歉你還是沒有回答我的問題啊你說總統不問你是吧那如果說民間的力量不是只有在野黨喔現在很多你看經濟部長新上去就說要解決缺電的問題嘛所以核能可能都是其中一個考慮企業界都已經提說希望核能這個問題可以解決嘛現在到底除了修法我剛問你你已經講五年這個卡住啦那到底有沒有什麼方式可以解套\n\n23\n00:08:35,297 --> 00:08:44,204\n張委員不好意思因為時間是不是事後我們把書面報告或者事後再跟張委員打訊息\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n12875\t16457\t我期待今天我們的對話因為今天看起來都是很專業的人士我們少一點點政治多一點專業好不好我先請教你最近看起來不管是要研立或者重啟這個核能美國、德國、日本都在做我先看第一張\n41161\t66520\t注意你有注意到沒有最近年發生311福島核災的日本他都重啟全球最大的這個核電廠了然後看第二張來我們看一下美國拜登政府剛剛通過要提供15億的美元的貸款要重啟密西根州一座關閉以後的這個核電廠第三個我們再看一下\n67742\t93461\t德國在烏俄戰爭之後他做了一個非常非常重要的決定剛剛那兩個都是停了以後重新開啟對不對現在德國是直接烏俄戰爭掉一個把原定要處理的三座核電廠基礎全部都研議了那我請教諸位若站在安全的這個立場你覺得台灣現在需要的電量這麼大德國能日本能美國能台灣現在\n97547\t100025\t能不能重啟我們的核二或者是嚴厲我們的核三\n102320\t131107\t這個是很大的問題啦就是大家社會很關切的問題那麼我們大概都知道我們台灣面臨了這個兩極的聲音就是這麼多年來那麼如果很好解決就我們今天不用在這個地方討論所以你是專家所以我剛才一開始說我常常同時知道是政敵的事件嘛像老實講要不要延續或者是重啟基本上都是一線之間啦對不對\n132403\t157394\t注意一點,你對這個美國智庫的專家這個約頓·麥吉利斯應該很熟悉對不對他在昨天他直接美國智庫這個專家專門研究核能的他在這裡講啊他講到第一個台灣承受不起缺電因為我們現在在發展半導體嘛你看台積電那個每個擴廠每蓋一個新的要多少要多少的這個電他講一個非常非常關鍵的他說賴清德就是我們總統當選人\n159042\t174156\t一定要趁機趕快調整肺核的這個政策然後講是一念之間所以我今天會請教若從專業的這個角度當然你肚子就安全嘛對不對我意思就是說不管是核三廠的研擬或者核二廠的重啟你們安全上可以提供很專業可以確保安全嗎\n175748\t202005\t那個安全的部分是要去努力的那麼它不是可以完全的保證我委員沒有這個不是在變的意思那麼人為疏失那麼天災、地震那麼它總是有風險那這個其實也就是另外一個聲音的\n202705\t203886\t所以其實現在經濟是我們發展這個命脈\n227088\t255511\t我本身也在經濟委所以我今天特別來問你這個事情我剛才特別說了半導體這個發展太重要了包括台積電都要到我們嘉義去了用水這個用電我都非常非常的注意那目前我發現當然一線之間就是說民進黨政府到底要不要做我認為這樣啦如果民進黨政府後來想要核酸要研議了我相信各個部門很快就可以動了那如果沒有的話現在在野黨都在努力現在很多立委都已經提了案子我直接請教你了\n256260\t274782\t包括已經有人提說讓河山廠可以直接延長對不對那他講的就是把條文裡面他研議的那個時間往後拉可是我看到條文裡面又碰到一個問題你差不多進警五年前要提出來對不對那目前這個修法有辦法去解決剛剛講要五年前提出來這個問題嗎\n276846\t287554\t修法是一件事但是直到到期核三廠一號機是7月27我們去盤整了所有國外的案例\n288874\t317285\t沒有說他還沒有核發執照就可以繼續研議這個是我們目前在國際上的Literature Survey所有的案例的去觀察注意剛才提到那個那個可不可以追一下那個德國的是用我們去稍微瞭解一下好好不好如果德國能的話我相信台灣也能啦當然這個安全一定是第一啦我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推這個什麼不可能一定要尊重你們專家的意見\n317805\t335514\t可是德國這個去參考一下很好另外還有一個問題我找到一個解套的方式是我們民國九十八年曾經進行核一廠這個研議的程序嘛因為他們是放在三一這個輔導這個事件嘛對不對那現在如果要重新啟動是不是98年這個模式可以比照辦理你是說委員是說我們在民國98年有做核一廠的那個研議的準備嘛對不對委員是說核一廠嘛對對對那種核一廠那還是不是喔 現在不是說核一廠要\n348451\t376054\t那時候民國90年代是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對所以現在看起來第一回說政府說要塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣\n376994\t383328\t那包括目前各黨現在提任的修法這五年事情都解不開嗎?是不是都解不開?\n384878\t406974\t修法是比較大的議題牽扯到很多層面我剛才跟不同的委員做一些報告除了我們的核關法之外牽扯到很多的執法交錯的連在一起具體來講要非常完備其實需要很整密的思考跟做下來看這是法律問題\n409264\t435035\t法律問題也牽扯到很多專業嘛我剛才看你剛才內部在蒙尼神、孟楷在蒙尼你也認為說核電是一個減碳的能源嘛尤其現在對我們台灣的發電來說電是需要更多的電的所以最後一個問題我請教請教請教諸位所以如果真的要研議核三的一號機或者二號機或者是這個核二廠要重新的話\n436240\t440773\t到底有什麼辦法?除了卡德納五年之外有什麼辦法?修法\n441966\t469536\t修法是最重要的啦那當然還有一些技術上的問題不好意思 修法怎麼修 技術上怎麼樣因為你要提供意見我現在只問你專業你認為不是不合專業的有碰到政治的你不要回答我就是完全去除到政治的你現在有兩種可能會被問到同樣有問題有可能執政黨的政府比如說總統最近就出去了他如果說真的要做研議或者廚藝他就問你了 對不對\n470856\t485232\t那也有可能在野黨要請教你這個問題你太敏感你不用回答沒關係我問的是專業的問題先跟委員報告那個人員政策是經濟部啦所以他不會問我啦我們其實是核能安全的管理機關所以這個先跟委員做個說明\n493562\t514497\t抱歉你還是沒有回答我的問題啊你說總統不問你是吧那如果說民間的力量不是只有在野黨喔現在很多你看經濟部長新上去就說要解決缺電的問題嘛所以核能可能都是其中一個考慮企業界都已經提說希望核能這個問題可以解決嘛現在到底除了修法我剛問你你已經講五年這個卡住啦那到底有沒有什麼方式可以解套\n515297\t524204\t張委員不好意思因為時間 是不是事後我們把書面報告 或者事後再跟張委員打訊息\n","txt":"我期待今天我們的對話因為今天看起來都是很專業的人士我們少一點點政治多一點專業好不好我先請教你最近看起來不管是要研立或者重啟這個核能美國、德國、日本都在做我先看第一張\n注意你有注意到沒有最近年發生311福島核災的日本他都重啟全球最大的這個核電廠了然後看第二張來我們看一下美國拜登政府剛剛通過要提供15億的美元的貸款要重啟密西根州一座關閉以後的這個核電廠第三個我們再看一下\n德國在烏俄戰爭之後他做了一個非常非常重要的決定剛剛那兩個都是停了以後重新開啟對不對現在德國是直接烏俄戰爭掉一個把原定要處理的三座核電廠基礎全部都研議了那我請教諸位若站在安全的這個立場你覺得台灣現在需要的電量這麼大德國能日本能美國能台灣現在\n能不能重啟我們的核二或者是嚴厲我們的核三\n這個是很大的問題啦就是大家社會很關切的問題那麼我們大概都知道我們台灣面臨了這個兩極的聲音就是這麼多年來那麼如果很好解決就我們今天不用在這個地方討論所以你是專家所以我剛才一開始說我常常同時知道是政敵的事件嘛像老實講要不要延續或者是重啟基本上都是一線之間啦對不對\n注意一點,你對這個美國智庫的專家這個約頓·麥吉利斯應該很熟悉對不對他在昨天他直接美國智庫這個專家專門研究核能的他在這裡講啊他講到第一個台灣承受不起缺電因為我們現在在發展半導體嘛你看台積電那個每個擴廠每蓋一個新的要多少要多少的這個電他講一個非常非常關鍵的他說賴清德就是我們總統當選人\n一定要趁機趕快調整肺核的這個政策然後講是一念之間所以我今天會請教若從專業的這個角度當然你肚子就安全嘛對不對我意思就是說不管是核三廠的研擬或者核二廠的重啟你們安全上可以提供很專業可以確保安全嗎\n那個安全的部分是要去努力的那麼它不是可以完全的保證我委員沒有這個不是在變的意思那麼人為疏失那麼天災、地震那麼它總是有風險那這個其實也就是另外一個聲音的\n所以其實現在經濟是我們發展這個命脈\n我本身也在經濟委所以我今天特別來問你這個事情我剛才特別說了半導體這個發展太重要了包括台積電都要到我們嘉義去了用水這個用電我都非常非常的注意那目前我發現當然一線之間就是說民進黨政府到底要不要做我認為這樣啦如果民進黨政府後來想要核酸要研議了我相信各個部門很快就可以動了那如果沒有的話現在在野黨都在努力現在很多立委都已經提了案子我直接請教你了\n包括已經有人提說讓河山廠可以直接延長對不對那他講的就是把條文裡面他研議的那個時間往後拉可是我看到條文裡面又碰到一個問題你差不多進警五年前要提出來對不對那目前這個修法有辦法去解決剛剛講要五年前提出來這個問題嗎\n修法是一件事但是直到到期核三廠一號機是7月27我們去盤整了所有國外的案例\n沒有說他還沒有核發執照就可以繼續研議這個是我們目前在國際上的Literature Survey所有的案例的去觀察注意剛才提到那個那個可不可以追一下那個德國的是用我們去稍微瞭解一下好好不好如果德國能的話我相信台灣也能啦當然這個安全一定是第一啦我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推這個什麼不可能一定要尊重你們專家的意見\n可是德國這個去參考一下很好另外還有一個問題我找到一個解套的方式是我們民國九十八年曾經進行核一廠這個研議的程序嘛因為他們是放在三一這個輔導這個事件嘛對不對那現在如果要重新啟動是不是98年這個模式可以比照辦理你是說委員是說我們在民國98年有做核一廠的那個研議的準備嘛對不對委員是說核一廠嘛對對對那種核一廠那還是不是喔 現在不是說核一廠要\n那時候民國90年代是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對所以現在看起來第一回說政府說要塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣\n那包括目前各黨現在提任的修法這五年事情都解不開嗎?是不是都解不開?\n修法是比較大的議題牽扯到很多層面我剛才跟不同的委員做一些報告除了我們的核關法之外牽扯到很多的執法交錯的連在一起具體來講要非常完備其實需要很整密的思考跟做下來看這是法律問題\n法律問題也牽扯到很多專業嘛我剛才看你剛才內部在蒙尼神、孟楷在蒙尼你也認為說核電是一個減碳的能源嘛尤其現在對我們台灣的發電來說電是需要更多的電的所以最後一個問題我請教請教請教諸位所以如果真的要研議核三的一號機或者二號機或者是這個核二廠要重新的話\n到底有什麼辦法?除了卡德納五年之外有什麼辦法?修法\n修法是最重要的啦那當然還有一些技術上的問題不好意思 修法怎麼修 技術上怎麼樣因為你要提供意見我現在只問你專業你認為不是不合專業的有碰到政治的你不要回答我就是完全去除到政治的你現在有兩種可能會被問到同樣有問題有可能執政黨的政府比如說總統最近就出去了他如果說真的要做研議或者廚藝他就問你了 對不對\n那也有可能在野黨要請教你這個問題你太敏感你不用回答沒關係我問的是專業的問題先跟委員報告那個人員政策是經濟部啦所以他不會問我啦我們其實是核能安全的管理機關所以這個先跟委員做個說明\n抱歉你還是沒有回答我的問題啊你說總統不問你是吧那如果說民間的力量不是只有在野黨喔現在很多你看經濟部長新上去就說要解決缺電的問題嘛所以核能可能都是其中一個考慮企業界都已經提說希望核能這個問題可以解決嘛現在到底除了修法我剛問你你已經講五年這個卡住啦那到底有沒有什麼方式可以解套\n張委員不好意思因為時間 是不是事後我們把書面報告 或者事後再跟張委員打訊息\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:12.875 --> 00:16.457\n我期待今天我們的對話因為今天看起來都是很專業的人士我們少一點點政治多一點專業好不好我先請教你最近看起來不管是要研立或者重啟這個核能美國、德國、日本都在做我先看第一張\n\n00:41.161 --> 01:06.520\n注意你有注意到沒有最近年發生311福島核災的日本他都重啟全球最大的這個核電廠了然後看第二張來我們看一下美國拜登政府剛剛通過要提供15億的美元的貸款要重啟密西根州一座關閉以後的這個核電廠第三個我們再看一下\n\n01:07.742 --> 01:33.461\n德國在烏俄戰爭之後他做了一個非常非常重要的決定剛剛那兩個都是停了以後重新開啟對不對現在德國是直接烏俄戰爭掉一個把原定要處理的三座核電廠基礎全部都研議了那我請教諸位若站在安全的這個立場你覺得台灣現在需要的電量這麼大德國能日本能美國能台灣現在\n\n01:37.547 --> 01:40.025\n能不能重啟我們的核二或者是嚴厲我們的核三\n\n01:42.320 --> 02:11.107\n這個是很大的問題啦就是大家社會很關切的問題那麼我們大概都知道我們台灣面臨了這個兩極的聲音就是這麼多年來那麼如果很好解決就我們今天不用在這個地方討論所以你是專家所以我剛才一開始說我常常同時知道是政敵的事件嘛像老實講要不要延續或者是重啟基本上都是一線之間啦對不對\n\n02:12.403 --> 02:37.394\n注意一點,你對這個美國智庫的專家這個約頓·麥吉利斯應該很熟悉對不對他在昨天他直接美國智庫這個專家專門研究核能的他在這裡講啊他講到第一個台灣承受不起缺電因為我們現在在發展半導體嘛你看台積電那個每個擴廠每蓋一個新的要多少要多少的這個電他講一個非常非常關鍵的他說賴清德就是我們總統當選人\n\n02:39.042 --> 02:54.156\n一定要趁機趕快調整肺核的這個政策然後講是一念之間所以我今天會請教若從專業的這個角度當然你肚子就安全嘛對不對我意思就是說不管是核三廠的研擬或者核二廠的重啟你們安全上可以提供很專業可以確保安全嗎\n\n02:55.748 --> 03:22.005\n那個安全的部分是要去努力的那麼它不是可以完全的保證我委員沒有這個不是在變的意思那麼人為疏失那麼天災、地震那麼它總是有風險那這個其實也就是另外一個聲音的\n\n03:22.705 --> 03:23.886\n所以其實現在經濟是我們發展這個命脈\n\n03:47.088 --> 04:15.511\n我本身也在經濟委所以我今天特別來問你這個事情我剛才特別說了半導體這個發展太重要了包括台積電都要到我們嘉義去了用水這個用電我都非常非常的注意那目前我發現當然一線之間就是說民進黨政府到底要不要做我認為這樣啦如果民進黨政府後來想要核酸要研議了我相信各個部門很快就可以動了那如果沒有的話現在在野黨都在努力現在很多立委都已經提了案子我直接請教你了\n\n04:16.260 --> 04:34.782\n包括已經有人提說讓河山廠可以直接延長對不對那他講的就是把條文裡面他研議的那個時間往後拉可是我看到條文裡面又碰到一個問題你差不多進警五年前要提出來對不對那目前這個修法有辦法去解決剛剛講要五年前提出來這個問題嗎\n\n04:36.846 --> 04:47.554\n修法是一件事但是直到到期核三廠一號機是7月27我們去盤整了所有國外的案例\n\n04:48.874 --> 05:17.285\n沒有說他還沒有核發執照就可以繼續研議這個是我們目前在國際上的LiteratureSurvey所有的案例的去觀察注意剛才提到那個那個可不可以追一下那個德國的是用我們去稍微瞭解一下好好不好如果德國能的話我相信台灣也能啦當然這個安全一定是第一啦我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推這個什麼不可能一定要尊重你們專家的意見\n\n05:17.805 --> 05:35.514\n可是德國這個去參考一下很好另外還有一個問題我找到一個解套的方式是我們民國九十八年曾經進行核一廠這個研議的程序嘛因為他們是放在三一這個輔導這個事件嘛對不對那現在如果要重新啟動是不是98年這個模式可以比照辦理你是說委員是說我們在民國98年有做核一廠的那個研議的準備嘛對不對委員是說核一廠嘛對對對那種核一廠那還是不是喔現在不是說核一廠要\n\n05:48.451 --> 06:16.054\n那時候民國90年代是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對所以現在看起來第一回說政府說要塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣\n\n06:16.994 --> 06:23.328\n那包括目前各黨現在提任的修法這五年事情都解不開嗎?是不是都解不開?\n\n06:24.878 --> 06:46.974\n修法是比較大的議題牽扯到很多層面我剛才跟不同的委員做一些報告除了我們的核關法之外牽扯到很多的執法交錯的連在一起具體來講要非常完備其實需要很整密的思考跟做下來看這是法律問題\n\n06:49.264 --> 07:15.035\n法律問題也牽扯到很多專業嘛我剛才看你剛才內部在蒙尼神、孟楷在蒙尼你也認為說核電是一個減碳的能源嘛尤其現在對我們台灣的發電來說電是需要更多的電的所以最後一個問題我請教請教請教諸位所以如果真的要研議核三的一號機或者二號機或者是這個核二廠要重新的話\n\n07:16.240 --> 07:20.773\n到底有什麼辦法?除了卡德納五年之外有什麼辦法?修法\n\n07:21.966 --> 07:49.536\n修法是最重要的啦那當然還有一些技術上的問題不好意思修法怎麼修技術上怎麼樣因為你要提供意見我現在只問你專業你認為不是不合專業的有碰到政治的你不要回答我就是完全去除到政治的你現在有兩種可能會被問到同樣有問題有可能執政黨的政府比如說總統最近就出去了他如果說真的要做研議或者廚藝他就問你了對不對\n\n07:50.856 --> 08:05.232\n那也有可能在野黨要請教你這個問題你太敏感你不用回答沒關係我問的是專業的問題先跟委員報告那個人員政策是經濟部啦所以他不會問我啦我們其實是核能安全的管理機關所以這個先跟委員做個說明\n\n08:13.562 --> 08:34.497\n抱歉你還是沒有回答我的問題啊你說總統不問你是吧那如果說民間的力量不是只有在野黨喔現在很多你看經濟部長新上去就說要解決缺電的問題嘛所以核能可能都是其中一個考慮企業界都已經提說希望核能這個問題可以解決嘛現在到底除了修法我剛問你你已經講五年這個卡住啦那到底有沒有什麼方式可以解套\n\n08:35.297 --> 08:44.204\n張委員不好意思因為時間是不是事後我們把書面報告或者事後再跟張委員打訊息\n\n","segments":[{"start":12.875,"end":16.457,"text":"我期待今天我們的對話因為今天看起來都是很專業的人士我們少一點點政治多一點專業好不好我先請教你最近看起來不管是要研立或者重啟這個核能美國、德國、日本都在做我先看第一張"},{"start":41.161,"end":66.52,"text":"注意你有注意到沒有最近年發生311福島核災的日本他都重啟全球最大的這個核電廠了然後看第二張來我們看一下美國拜登政府剛剛通過要提供15億的美元的貸款要重啟密西根州一座關閉以後的這個核電廠第三個我們再看一下"},{"start":67.742,"end":93.461,"text":"德國在烏俄戰爭之後他做了一個非常非常重要的決定剛剛那兩個都是停了以後重新開啟對不對現在德國是直接烏俄戰爭掉一個把原定要處理的三座核電廠基礎全部都研議了那我請教諸位若站在安全的這個立場你覺得台灣現在需要的電量這麼大德國能日本能美國能台灣現在"},{"start":97.547,"end":100.025,"text":"能不能重啟我們的核二或者是嚴厲我們的核三"},{"start":102.32,"end":131.107,"text":"這個是很大的問題啦就是大家社會很關切的問題那麼我們大概都知道我們台灣面臨了這個兩極的聲音就是這麼多年來那麼如果很好解決就我們今天不用在這個地方討論所以你是專家所以我剛才一開始說我常常同時知道是政敵的事件嘛像老實講要不要延續或者是重啟基本上都是一線之間啦對不對"},{"start":132.403,"end":157.394,"text":"注意一點,你對這個美國智庫的專家這個約頓·麥吉利斯應該很熟悉對不對他在昨天他直接美國智庫這個專家專門研究核能的他在這裡講啊他講到第一個台灣承受不起缺電因為我們現在在發展半導體嘛你看台積電那個每個擴廠每蓋一個新的要多少要多少的這個電他講一個非常非常關鍵的他說賴清德就是我們總統當選人"},{"start":159.042,"end":174.156,"text":"一定要趁機趕快調整肺核的這個政策然後講是一念之間所以我今天會請教若從專業的這個角度當然你肚子就安全嘛對不對我意思就是說不管是核三廠的研擬或者核二廠的重啟你們安全上可以提供很專業可以確保安全嗎"},{"start":175.748,"end":202.005,"text":"那個安全的部分是要去努力的那麼它不是可以完全的保證我委員沒有這個不是在變的意思那麼人為疏失那麼天災、地震那麼它總是有風險那這個其實也就是另外一個聲音的"},{"start":202.705,"end":203.886,"text":"所以其實現在經濟是我們發展這個命脈"},{"start":227.088,"end":255.511,"text":"我本身也在經濟委所以我今天特別來問你這個事情我剛才特別說了半導體這個發展太重要了包括台積電都要到我們嘉義去了用水這個用電我都非常非常的注意那目前我發現當然一線之間就是說民進黨政府到底要不要做我認為這樣啦如果民進黨政府後來想要核酸要研議了我相信各個部門很快就可以動了那如果沒有的話現在在野黨都在努力現在很多立委都已經提了案子我直接請教你了"},{"start":256.26,"end":274.782,"text":"包括已經有人提說讓河山廠可以直接延長對不對那他講的就是把條文裡面他研議的那個時間往後拉可是我看到條文裡面又碰到一個問題你差不多進警五年前要提出來對不對那目前這個修法有辦法去解決剛剛講要五年前提出來這個問題嗎"},{"start":276.846,"end":287.554,"text":"修法是一件事但是直到到期核三廠一號機是7月27我們去盤整了所有國外的案例"},{"start":288.874,"end":317.285,"text":"沒有說他還沒有核發執照就可以繼續研議這個是我們目前在國際上的Literature Survey所有的案例的去觀察注意剛才提到那個那個可不可以追一下那個德國的是用我們去稍微瞭解一下好好不好如果德國能的話我相信台灣也能啦當然這個安全一定是第一啦我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推這個什麼不可能一定要尊重你們專家的意見"},{"start":317.805,"end":335.514,"text":"可是德國這個去參考一下很好另外還有一個問題我找到一個解套的方式是我們民國九十八年曾經進行核一廠這個研議的程序嘛因為他們是放在三一這個輔導這個事件嘛對不對那現在如果要重新啟動是不是98年這個模式可以比照辦理你是說委員是說我們在民國98年有做核一廠的那個研議的準備嘛對不對委員是說核一廠嘛對對對那種核一廠那還是不是喔 現在不是說核一廠要"},{"start":348.451,"end":376.054,"text":"那時候民國90年代是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對所以現在看起來第一回說政府說要塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣"},{"start":376.994,"end":383.328,"text":"那包括目前各黨現在提任的修法這五年事情都解不開嗎?是不是都解不開?"},{"start":384.878,"end":406.974,"text":"修法是比較大的議題牽扯到很多層面我剛才跟不同的委員做一些報告除了我們的核關法之外牽扯到很多的執法交錯的連在一起具體來講要非常完備其實需要很整密的思考跟做下來看這是法律問題"},{"start":409.264,"end":435.035,"text":"法律問題也牽扯到很多專業嘛我剛才看你剛才內部在蒙尼神、孟楷在蒙尼你也認為說核電是一個減碳的能源嘛尤其現在對我們台灣的發電來說電是需要更多的電的所以最後一個問題我請教請教請教諸位所以如果真的要研議核三的一號機或者二號機或者是這個核二廠要重新的話"},{"start":436.24,"end":440.773,"text":"到底有什麼辦法?除了卡德納五年之外有什麼辦法?修法"},{"start":441.966,"end":469.536,"text":"修法是最重要的啦那當然還有一些技術上的問題不好意思 修法怎麼修 技術上怎麼樣因為你要提供意見我現在只問你專業你認為不是不合專業的有碰到政治的你不要回答我就是完全去除到政治的你現在有兩種可能會被問到同樣有問題有可能執政黨的政府比如說總統最近就出去了他如果說真的要做研議或者廚藝他就問你了 對不對"},{"start":470.856,"end":485.232,"text":"那也有可能在野黨要請教你這個問題你太敏感你不用回答沒關係我問的是專業的問題先跟委員報告那個人員政策是經濟部啦所以他不會問我啦我們其實是核能安全的管理機關所以這個先跟委員做個說明"},{"start":493.562,"end":514.497,"text":"抱歉你還是沒有回答我的問題啊你說總統不問你是吧那如果說民間的力量不是只有在野黨喔現在很多你看經濟部長新上去就說要解決缺電的問題嘛所以核能可能都是其中一個考慮企業界都已經提說希望核能這個問題可以解決嘛現在到底除了修法我剛問你你已經講五年這個卡住啦那到底有沒有什麼方式可以解套"},{"start":515.297,"end":524.204,"text":"張委員不好意思因為時間 是不是事後我們把書面報告 或者事後再跟張委員打訊息"}]}}}}