{"id":151694,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb36b1f83e9b8ae771fb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432eb3e375b409096655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:16:37 - 12:27:09","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":632,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:27:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:16:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請衛福部部長、法務部檢察司司長、司法院少家廳副廳長，法官要上來協助也沒有問題。"],["主席：請薛部長、郭司長、李副廳長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係就不一一問候。兒少性剝削的人數節節攀升，當然這個是通報的狀況，從2017年的1,060人到2022年，我現在有的data已經到2,280人了，除了人數不斷攀升以外，讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝、製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為之物品這一種樣態的違法比例不斷攀升，如果我們以2022年來講，已經到了86%了，相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪。衛福部也說了，事實上我們看到人數不斷攀升、比例占那麼高，其實黑數還是很大，也牽涉到被害人在目前的法律下是不是有足夠的機制讓他願意出來，這真的是一件不容易的事情，因為可能會對他自己的社會生活、既有的家庭生活、人際關係都造成非常大負面衝擊的影響，這個我們大家都了解。","接下來就是我們目前對持有兒少性影像的處罰，沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑，從比較法的觀點來看，我們應該是延續著日本法律，跟德國比、美國比相對而言都是輕。現在問題來了，目前這樣子的法定刑，從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度，認為有沒有調整的必要？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們認為是有再調整的必要，不過也跟委員報告，把這個變成刑事責任還是在去年修法時候才這樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是。請教法務部，認為這樣的法定刑有沒有調整的必要？"],["郭司長永發：我們尊重權責機關，我們也贊同權責機關的……"],["黃委員國昌：就是認為有調整的必要嘛。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請教司法院，你們支不支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷來訂定不同的量刑基準？"],["李副廳長昆霖：我們尊重由權責機關來……"],["黃委員國昌：權責機關就你們啊，量刑基準不是司法院嗎？"],["李副廳長昆霖：是，那我們……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼還尊重權責機關？我的老天啊！"],["李副廳長昆霖：對不起，我的意思是設定量刑的基準，我們目前有在討論那個量刑的準則。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候討論出來？問題很嚴重啊，速度要快啊！"],["李副廳長昆霖：好，因為這部分是刑事廳主責，我請朱法官來……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，因為今天主席請少家廳來嘛，沒關係，把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳，這個事情絕對不能再拖了！"],["李副廳長昆霖：OK，謝謝委員，我們會帶回去，我們會加緊處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好。接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾，就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題，這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候，第二條的修法理由寫得「落落長」，我全部都拜讀完了，我看完了以後，它造成了一個很大的困擾，那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中？衛福部之前說要訂子法，現在還有要訂嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，現在我們大概會用解釋的方式來做處理。"],["黃委員國昌：解釋什麼時候做出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：正在簽辦當中。"],["黃委員國昌：你們的解釋內容是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：有幾個，第一個是實際真實人物的部分，當然就是……"],["黃委員國昌：這不用說。"],["薛部長瑞元：不用說。虛擬的部分，原則上是不管，但是有幾個，擬真的……"],["黃委員國昌：AI。"],["薛部長瑞元：AI擬真的，這個要放進來。"],["黃委員國昌：是，同意。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個，如果涉及到比方說人獸交啦！虐待啦！暴力的，這個部分就回到刑法。"],["黃委員國昌：所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，原則上是不會，動漫畫的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我現在就要講得很清楚了，4月的時候，李麗芬次長好像有對外表示，動漫的部分會依照違反刑法第二百三十五條來加以處理，這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是說它的內容，如果有暴力這一塊……"],["黃委員國昌：我的意思是說，就是回到刑法，不會用兒少性剝削防制條例來處理，這是衛福部的立場嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：來，法務部。衛福部這樣子的立場，法務部同意嗎？"],["郭司長永發：我們尊重權責機關的職權……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，不要說尊重權責機關，因為犯罪事實移到法務部，檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊！衛福部剛剛表明他們的立場，所以我現在問法務部的立場，法務部要有立場啊！"],["郭司長永發：好，這個可能會構成散布猥褻物品罪。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防制條例處理？這個要講清楚啊！"],["郭司長永發：擬真AI的話，就依照衛福部……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，擬真AI當然就不用講，動漫的部分會不會？講清楚啊！"],["郭司長永發：動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散布猥褻物品罪來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不會用兒少性剝削防制條例？法務部立場要講清楚，讓所有的檢察官聽到。"],["郭司長永發：是，釋字617號來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不會用兒童性剝削防制條例處理，對不對？是嗎？政策立場上嘛！"],["郭司長永發：對，是用刑法。"],["黃委員國昌：當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官，我老實講，我作為法律人是有一個超級大問號啦！行政機關都這樣講，但檢察官行使職權是獨立的啊！司長，我有沒有講錯？"],["郭司長永發：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊！"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在政策採取這樣的立場，你下一步馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎？這個問題很重要啊！法務部回去好好研究，好不好？"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["黃委員國昌：要透過什麼樣子的手段，我們可以合法地讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文，使用上面要很慎重，我們要打擊該打擊的人，不要濫殺無辜，在法制作業上要怎麼做，法務部回去好好研擬清楚，好不好？"],["郭司長永發：謝謝委員提醒。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我為什麼會講這件事情？因為用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡，有沒有違反性剝削防制條例第三十六條的規定？衛福部說有嘛！法務部呢？"],["郭司長永發：是，有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！但問題來了，目前實務上面我國法院的見解，有的說有罪，有的直接宣告沒有罪，為什麼會宣告沒有罪？跟2023年的修正又有關係啦！主席站起來，但是這一題很重要，我趕快把它講完，請司法院帶回去好好研究，這不是開玩笑的！","之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下，用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡，這一定是違反兒少性剝削防制條例第三十六條的規定，也判有罪了，高等法院也維持這樣的見解了，但最高法院111年度台上字1847號刑事判決，援引2023年修法理由以後的見解，出來的見解是什麼？來，我唸給大家聽，「被告以針孔攝影機偷拍甲女洗澡之電子訊號是否符合修正後兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條第一項第三款及同條例第三十六條之性影像？」最高法院提出質疑耶！發回了以後，要高等法院好好注意耶！發回以後發生什麼事情？沒罪！為什麼？它在客觀上不是引起他人性慾之舉動或行為之猥褻行為。","法官獨立審判，我們一定尊重，但當我們的司法實務上面出現了「一人一把號，各吹各的調」，甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點，容我這樣講，難以接受啊！難以接受啊！這個實務上的動態，衛福部也好，法務部也好，司法院也好，要清楚地掌握，要不然立法者在這邊立了半天，結果法院判沒有罪放人，大家都不知道，這不是開玩笑的事情耶！這一個最高法院的見解，接下來要怎麼處理、要怎麼面對，衛福部、法務部、司法院，你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下，好不好？因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊！部長，您贊不贊成？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個在我們的兒少性剝削諮詢委員會裡面，我們就找這些單位一起來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：法務部，同不同意？"],["郭司長永發：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院，同不同意？"],["李副廳長昆霖：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：要怎麼處理這件事情，趕快有一個解決的方法，提一個書面報告給大家，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員國昌：1個月內可以嗎？"],["郭司長永發：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員發言。","接下來請李彥秀委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"151694","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151694","tool":"pyannote","id":"151694-pyannote"},"job_id":"UmSG2L6RJJxrYpdb","queued_at":"2024-05-31 18:13:55","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 18:13:55","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151694"},{"time":"2024-05-31 18:13:56","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb36b1f83e9b8ae771fb903698ddfaa754a0ea7fa9c781b9e75b88a9dc59f6a476c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-31 18:14:18","msg":"converting mp4 to wav"},{"time":"2024-05-31 18:14:20","msg":"running pyannote"},{"time":"2024-05-31 18:14:31","msg":"status: 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\"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"秀\", \"start\": 631.198, \"end\": 631.419, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 631.419, \"end\": 631.519, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": \"言\", \"start\": 631.519, \"end\": 631.539, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:07,058 --> 00:00:18,645\n謝謝主席麻煩有請衛福利部部長、法務部的檢察司司長、司法院邵家廳的副廳長那個法官要上來協助\n\n2\n00:00:40,430 --> 00:00:52,262\n二、三位好,是有關係喔,不宜問候。兒少啊,性剝削的人數啊,節節攀升,那當然這個是通報的狀況嘛。從2017年1060人到2022年,我現在有的data已經到2280人了。\n\n3\n00:00:57,967 --> 00:01:24,177\n除了人數不斷攀升以外讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為的物品這一種樣態的違法態樣比例不斷的在攀升如果我們以2022年來講已經到了86%了相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪那衛福部也說了事實上\n\n4\n00:01:25,057 --> 00:01:49,679\n我們看到人數不斷攀升比例再那麼高其實黑數還是很大因為牽涉到了被害人他是不是真的在目前的法律機制下有足夠的機制讓他願意出來這真的是一件不容易的事情因為他可能會造成的是他自己的社會生活既有的家庭生活、人際關係都會造成非常大\n\n5\n00:01:50,800 --> 00:02:11,278\n負面衝擊的影響。」這個我們大家都了解那接下來就是說我們目前持有兒少性影響的處罰沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑從比較法的觀點來看我們應該是延續著日本法律跟德國比跟美國比相對而言都是輕嘛\n\n6\n00:02:12,499 --> 00:02:23,027\n現在的問題來了就是說目前這樣子的法定型從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度認為有沒有調整的必要\n\n7\n00:02:24,322 --> 00:02:46,835\n我們認為是有再調整的必要,不過也跟我們報告,這一個把它變成一個刑事責任還是在去年修法的時候才接受是是是,來請法務部認為這樣的法定型有沒有調整的必要我們尊重權者機關,我們也贊同權者機關的就認為有調整的必要嘛,好來請司法院\n\n8\n00:02:47,996 --> 00:02:57,408\n你們至於支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷、訂立不同的量刑基準\n\n9\n00:02:59,457 --> 00:03:19,274\n我們尊重那個有權責機關的來權責機關就你們啊量刑基準不是司法院嗎是那我們那個什麼還尊重權責機關我老天啊對不起我的意思是說這個量刑設定量刑的基準我們目前有在討論那個量刑的什麼時候討論得出來\n\n10\n00:03:21,708 --> 00:03:45,167\n問題很嚴重啊!速度要快啊!沒有關係啦!因為今天主席請邵家廷來嘛!沒關係把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳啦!這個事情絕對不能再拖二二一了!接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題嘛!\n\n11\n00:03:47,409 --> 00:04:11,094\n這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候第二條的修法理由我全部都拜讀完了我看完了以後他造成了一個很大的困擾那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中那衛福部之前說要訂執法現在還有要訂嗎\n\n12\n00:04:12,612 --> 00:04:21,706\n沒有,現在大概就是我們會用一個解釋的方式來做出解釋什麼時候做出來在千半鐘\n\n13\n00:04:22,099 --> 00:04:42,356\n正在前半當中。」你們在解釋內容是什麼?有幾個。第一個就是說實際真實人物的部分的話,當然就是...這不用說?不用說。虛擬的部分的話,原則上是不管,但是有幾個。那個女真的、AI女真的,要放進來。\n\n14\n00:04:44,137 --> 00:05:12,816\n二、如果涉及到人社交、虐待、暴力這部分就回到刑法所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嗎?對,原則上是不會動漫化的但我現在就要講得很清楚了就是說4月的時候李立芬次長好像有對外面表示說動漫的部分\n\n15\n00:05:14,362 --> 00:05:31,663\n會依照違反刑法235條來加以處理。」這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎?呃這是說它的內容如果有這種我的意思是說啦就是回到刑法對不會用兒少、性剝削、防治條例來處理是這是衛福部的立場嘛對來法務部\n\n16\n00:05:35,035 --> 00:05:58,147\n衛福部這樣子的立場法務部同意嗎?先停一下不要尊重權責機關啊因為犯罪事實啊移到法務部啊檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊這個不是說衛福部剛表明他們的立場嗎所以我現在問法務部的立場法務部要有立場啊所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理?\n\n17\n00:06:04,606 --> 00:06:28,567\n這裡要講清楚啊!女真AI當然就不用講嘛動漫的部分會不會講清楚啊動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散佈猥褻物品所以不會用兒少性剝削防治條例法務部立場要講清楚讓所有的檢察官聽到4-617號來處理\n\n18\n00:06:32,836 --> 00:06:49,216\n所以不會用兒童性撥券防治條例處理對不對?是嗎?政策立場上嘛當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官我老實講啦我作為法律人士有個超級大問號啦行政機關都這樣講但檢察官行使職權是獨立啦\n\n19\n00:06:52,287 --> 00:07:06,729\n市長我有沒有講錯沒錯對嘛所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊是你們在政策採取這樣的立場你下一步你馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎這個問題很重要啊\n\n20\n00:07:08,140 --> 00:07:31,613\n法務部回去好好研究好不好要透過什麼樣子的手段我們可以合法的讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文使用上面要很慎重我們要打擊該打擊的人不要濫殺無辜法制作業上要怎麼做法務部回去好好研擬清楚好不好好我為什麼會講這件事情因為\n\n21\n00:07:33,834 --> 00:08:02,001\n用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡有沒有違反性剝削及防治條例第36條的規定?衛福部說有嘛法務部說呢?法務部呢?有嘛但問題來了目前實務上面我國法院的見解有的說有罪有的直接宣告沒有罪\n\n22\n00:08:03,181 --> 00:08:29,375\n為什麼會宣告沒有罪跟2023年的修正又有關係啦主席站起來但是這題很重要我趕快把它講完請司法院帶回去好好研究這不是開玩笑的啊之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡這一定是違反兒少性剝削防治條例36條的規定也判有罪了高等法院也維持這樣的見解了但\n\n23\n00:08:30,612 --> 00:08:53,246\n最高法院110年度台上制1847號刑事判決,援引2023年修法理由以後的見解。」出來的見解是什麼來我唸給大家聽喔。被告以偵恐攝影機偷拍假女洗澡的電子訊號有沒有符合俄上性剝削防治條例第二條第一項第三款及紅條例36條的性影像。\n\n24\n00:08:56,229 --> 00:09:10,724\n最高法院提出質疑發回了以後要高等法院好好注意發回以後發生什麼事情沒罪為什麼他在客觀上不是引起他人信譽的舉動或行為的猥褻行為\n\n25\n00:09:12,389 --> 00:09:23,685\n法官獨立審判我們一定尊重但當我們的司法實務上面出現了一人一把號各吹各的調甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點容我這樣講\n\n26\n00:09:28,272 --> 00:09:54,582\n難以接受啊難以接受啊這個實務上的動態喔衛福部也好法務部也好司法院也好要清楚的掌握要不然立法者在這邊立了半天結果法院判沒有罪放人大家都不知道這不是開玩笑的事情欸這個最高法院的見解接下來要怎麼處理要怎麼面對衛福部、法務部、司法院\n\n27\n00:09:55,799 --> 00:10:22,017\n你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下好不好因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊部長您贊不贊成這在我們的耳塞星波區的諮詢委員會裡面我們就找這些單位一起討論法務部同不同意?同意司法院同不同意?同意要怎麼處理這件事情喔?趕快有一個解決的方法提一個書面報告來給大家好不好\n\n28\n00:10:23,188 --> 00:10:31,539\n一個月內可以嗎?可以,好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌委員發言。接下來請李燕秀委員發言。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n7058\t18645\t謝謝主席麻煩有請衛福利部部長、法務部的檢察司司長、司法院邵家廳的副廳長那個法官要上來協助\n40430\t52262\t二、三位好,是有關係喔,不宜問候。兒少啊,性剝削的人數啊,節節攀升,那當然這個是通報的狀況嘛。從2017年1060人到2022年,我現在有的data已經到2280人了。\n57967\t84177\t除了人數不斷攀升以外讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為的物品這一種樣態的違法態樣比例不斷的在攀升如果我們以2022年來講已經到了86%了相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪那衛福部也說了事實上\n85057\t109679\t我們看到人數不斷攀升比例再那麼高其實黑數還是很大因為牽涉到了被害人他是不是真的在目前的法律機制下有足夠的機制讓他願意出來這真的是一件不容易的事情因為他可能會造成的是他自己的社會生活既有的家庭生活、人際關係都會造成非常大\n110800\t131278\t負面衝擊的影響。」這個我們大家都了解那接下來就是說我們目前持有兒少性影響的處罰沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑從比較法的觀點來看我們應該是延續著日本法律跟德國比跟美國比相對而言都是輕嘛\n132499\t143027\t現在的問題來了就是說目前這樣子的法定型從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度認為有沒有調整的必要\n144322\t166835\t我們認為是有再調整的必要,不過也跟我們報告,這一個把它變成一個刑事責任還是在去年修法的時候才接受是是是,來請法務部認為這樣的法定型有沒有調整的必要我們尊重權者機關,我們也贊同權者機關的就認為有調整的必要嘛,好來請司法院\n167996\t177408\t你們至於支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷、訂立不同的量刑基準\n179457\t199274\t我們尊重那個有權責機關的來權責機關就你們啊量刑基準不是司法院嗎是那我們那個什麼還尊重權責機關我老天啊對不起我的意思是說這個量刑設定量刑的基準我們目前有在討論那個量刑的什麼時候討論得出來\n201708\t225167\t問題很嚴重啊!速度要快啊!沒有關係啦!因為今天主席請邵家廷來嘛!沒關係把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳啦!這個事情絕對不能再拖二二一了!接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題嘛!\n227409\t251094\t這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候第二條的修法理由我全部都拜讀完了我看完了以後他造成了一個很大的困擾那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中那衛福部之前說要訂執法現在還有要訂嗎\n252612\t261706\t沒有,現在大概就是我們會用一個解釋的方式來做出解釋什麼時候做出來在千半鐘\n262099\t282356\t正在前半當中。」你們在解釋內容是什麼?有幾個。第一個就是說實際真實人物的部分的話,當然就是...這不用說?不用說。虛擬的部分的話,原則上是不管,但是有幾個。那個女真的、AI女真的,要放進來。\n284137\t312816\t二、如果涉及到人社交、虐待、暴力這部分就回到刑法所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嗎?對,原則上是不會動漫化的但我現在就要講得很清楚了就是說4月的時候李立芬次長好像有對外面表示說動漫的部分\n314362\t331663\t會依照違反刑法235條來加以處理。」這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎?呃這是說它的內容如果有這種我的意思是說啦就是回到刑法對不會用兒少、性剝削、防治條例來處理是這是衛福部的立場嘛對來法務部\n335035\t358147\t衛福部這樣子的立場法務部同意嗎?先停一下不要尊重權責機關啊因為犯罪事實啊移到法務部啊檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊這個不是說衛福部剛表明他們的立場嗎所以我現在問法務部的立場法務部要有立場啊所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理?\n364606\t388567\t這裡要講清楚啊!女真AI當然就不用講嘛動漫的部分會不會講清楚啊動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散佈猥褻物品所以不會用兒少性剝削防治條例法務部立場要講清楚讓所有的檢察官聽到4-617號來處理\n392836\t409216\t所以不會用兒童性撥券防治條例處理對不對?是嗎?政策立場上嘛當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官我老實講啦我作為法律人士有個超級大問號啦行政機關都這樣講但檢察官行使職權是獨立啦\n412287\t426729\t市長我有沒有講錯沒錯對嘛所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊是你們在政策採取這樣的立場你下一步你馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎這個問題很重要啊\n428140\t451613\t法務部回去好好研究好不好要透過什麼樣子的手段我們可以合法的讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文使用上面要很慎重我們要打擊該打擊的人不要濫殺無辜法制作業上要怎麼做法務部回去好好研擬清楚好不好好我為什麼會講這件事情因為\n453834\t482001\t用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡有沒有違反性剝削及防治條例第36條的規定?衛福部說有嘛法務部說呢?法務部呢?有嘛但問題來了目前實務上面我國法院的見解有的說有罪有的直接宣告沒有罪\n483181\t509375\t為什麼會宣告沒有罪跟2023年的修正又有關係啦主席站起來但是這題很重要我趕快把它講完請司法院帶回去好好研究這不是開玩笑的啊之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡這一定是違反兒少性剝削防治條例36條的規定也判有罪了高等法院也維持這樣的見解了但\n510612\t533246\t最高法院110年度台上制1847號刑事判決,援引2023年修法理由以後的見解。」出來的見解是什麼來我唸給大家聽喔。被告以偵恐攝影機偷拍假女洗澡的電子訊號有沒有符合俄上性剝削防治條例第二條第一項第三款及紅條例36條的性影像。\n536229\t550724\t最高法院提出質疑發回了以後要高等法院好好注意發回以後發生什麼事情沒罪為什麼他在客觀上不是引起他人信譽的舉動或行為的猥褻行為\n552389\t563685\t法官獨立審判我們一定尊重但當我們的司法實務上面出現了一人一把號各吹各的調甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點容我這樣講\n568272\t594582\t難以接受啊難以接受啊這個實務上的動態喔衛福部也好法務部也好司法院也好要清楚的掌握要不然立法者在這邊立了半天結果法院判沒有罪放人大家都不知道這不是開玩笑的事情欸這個最高法院的見解接下來要怎麼處理要怎麼面對衛福部、法務部、司法院\n595799\t622017\t你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下好不好因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊部長您贊不贊成這在我們的耳塞星波區的諮詢委員會裡面我們就找這些單位一起討論法務部同不同意?同意司法院同不同意?同意要怎麼處理這件事情喔?趕快有一個解決的方法提一個書面報告來給大家好不好\n623188\t631539\t一個月內可以嗎?可以,好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌委員發言。接下來請李燕秀委員發言。\n","txt":"謝謝主席麻煩有請衛福利部部長、法務部的檢察司司長、司法院邵家廳的副廳長那個法官要上來協助\n二、三位好,是有關係喔,不宜問候。兒少啊,性剝削的人數啊,節節攀升,那當然這個是通報的狀況嘛。從2017年1060人到2022年,我現在有的data已經到2280人了。\n除了人數不斷攀升以外讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為的物品這一種樣態的違法態樣比例不斷的在攀升如果我們以2022年來講已經到了86%了相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪那衛福部也說了事實上\n我們看到人數不斷攀升比例再那麼高其實黑數還是很大因為牽涉到了被害人他是不是真的在目前的法律機制下有足夠的機制讓他願意出來這真的是一件不容易的事情因為他可能會造成的是他自己的社會生活既有的家庭生活、人際關係都會造成非常大\n負面衝擊的影響。」這個我們大家都了解那接下來就是說我們目前持有兒少性影響的處罰沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑從比較法的觀點來看我們應該是延續著日本法律跟德國比跟美國比相對而言都是輕嘛\n現在的問題來了就是說目前這樣子的法定型從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度認為有沒有調整的必要\n我們認為是有再調整的必要,不過也跟我們報告,這一個把它變成一個刑事責任還是在去年修法的時候才接受是是是,來請法務部認為這樣的法定型有沒有調整的必要我們尊重權者機關,我們也贊同權者機關的就認為有調整的必要嘛,好來請司法院\n你們至於支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷、訂立不同的量刑基準\n我們尊重那個有權責機關的來權責機關就你們啊量刑基準不是司法院嗎是那我們那個什麼還尊重權責機關我老天啊對不起我的意思是說這個量刑設定量刑的基準我們目前有在討論那個量刑的什麼時候討論得出來\n問題很嚴重啊!速度要快啊!沒有關係啦!因為今天主席請邵家廷來嘛!沒關係把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳啦!這個事情絕對不能再拖二二一了!接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題嘛!\n這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候第二條的修法理由我全部都拜讀完了我看完了以後他造成了一個很大的困擾那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中那衛福部之前說要訂執法現在還有要訂嗎\n沒有,現在大概就是我們會用一個解釋的方式來做出解釋什麼時候做出來在千半鐘\n正在前半當中。」你們在解釋內容是什麼?有幾個。第一個就是說實際真實人物的部分的話,當然就是...這不用說?不用說。虛擬的部分的話,原則上是不管,但是有幾個。那個女真的、AI女真的,要放進來。\n二、如果涉及到人社交、虐待、暴力這部分就回到刑法所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嗎?對,原則上是不會動漫化的但我現在就要講得很清楚了就是說4月的時候李立芬次長好像有對外面表示說動漫的部分\n會依照違反刑法235條來加以處理。」這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎?呃這是說它的內容如果有這種我的意思是說啦就是回到刑法對不會用兒少、性剝削、防治條例來處理是這是衛福部的立場嘛對來法務部\n衛福部這樣子的立場法務部同意嗎?先停一下不要尊重權責機關啊因為犯罪事實啊移到法務部啊檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊這個不是說衛福部剛表明他們的立場嗎所以我現在問法務部的立場法務部要有立場啊所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理?\n這裡要講清楚啊!女真AI當然就不用講嘛動漫的部分會不會講清楚啊動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散佈猥褻物品所以不會用兒少性剝削防治條例法務部立場要講清楚讓所有的檢察官聽到4-617號來處理\n所以不會用兒童性撥券防治條例處理對不對?是嗎?政策立場上嘛當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官我老實講啦我作為法律人士有個超級大問號啦行政機關都這樣講但檢察官行使職權是獨立啦\n市長我有沒有講錯沒錯對嘛所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊是你們在政策採取這樣的立場你下一步你馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎這個問題很重要啊\n法務部回去好好研究好不好要透過什麼樣子的手段我們可以合法的讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文使用上面要很慎重我們要打擊該打擊的人不要濫殺無辜法制作業上要怎麼做法務部回去好好研擬清楚好不好好我為什麼會講這件事情因為\n用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡有沒有違反性剝削及防治條例第36條的規定?衛福部說有嘛法務部說呢?法務部呢?有嘛但問題來了目前實務上面我國法院的見解有的說有罪有的直接宣告沒有罪\n為什麼會宣告沒有罪跟2023年的修正又有關係啦主席站起來但是這題很重要我趕快把它講完請司法院帶回去好好研究這不是開玩笑的啊之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡這一定是違反兒少性剝削防治條例36條的規定也判有罪了高等法院也維持這樣的見解了但\n最高法院110年度台上制1847號刑事判決,援引2023年修法理由以後的見解。」出來的見解是什麼來我唸給大家聽喔。被告以偵恐攝影機偷拍假女洗澡的電子訊號有沒有符合俄上性剝削防治條例第二條第一項第三款及紅條例36條的性影像。\n最高法院提出質疑發回了以後要高等法院好好注意發回以後發生什麼事情沒罪為什麼他在客觀上不是引起他人信譽的舉動或行為的猥褻行為\n法官獨立審判我們一定尊重但當我們的司法實務上面出現了一人一把號各吹各的調甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點容我這樣講\n難以接受啊難以接受啊這個實務上的動態喔衛福部也好法務部也好司法院也好要清楚的掌握要不然立法者在這邊立了半天結果法院判沒有罪放人大家都不知道這不是開玩笑的事情欸這個最高法院的見解接下來要怎麼處理要怎麼面對衛福部、法務部、司法院\n你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下好不好因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊部長您贊不贊成這在我們的耳塞星波區的諮詢委員會裡面我們就找這些單位一起討論法務部同不同意?同意司法院同不同意?同意要怎麼處理這件事情喔?趕快有一個解決的方法提一個書面報告來給大家好不好\n一個月內可以嗎?可以,好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌委員發言。接下來請李燕秀委員發言。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:07.058 --> 00:18.645\n謝謝主席麻煩有請衛福利部部長、法務部的檢察司司長、司法院邵家廳的副廳長那個法官要上來協助\n\n00:40.430 --> 00:52.262\n二、三位好,是有關係喔,不宜問候。兒少啊,性剝削的人數啊,節節攀升,那當然這個是通報的狀況嘛。從2017年1060人到2022年,我現在有的data已經到2280人了。\n\n00:57.967 --> 01:24.177\n除了人數不斷攀升以外讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為的物品這一種樣態的違法態樣比例不斷的在攀升如果我們以2022年來講已經到了86%了相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪那衛福部也說了事實上\n\n01:25.057 --> 01:49.679\n我們看到人數不斷攀升比例再那麼高其實黑數還是很大因為牽涉到了被害人他是不是真的在目前的法律機制下有足夠的機制讓他願意出來這真的是一件不容易的事情因為他可能會造成的是他自己的社會生活既有的家庭生活、人際關係都會造成非常大\n\n01:50.800 --> 02:11.278\n負面衝擊的影響。」這個我們大家都了解那接下來就是說我們目前持有兒少性影響的處罰沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑從比較法的觀點來看我們應該是延續著日本法律跟德國比跟美國比相對而言都是輕嘛\n\n02:12.499 --> 02:23.027\n現在的問題來了就是說目前這樣子的法定型從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度認為有沒有調整的必要\n\n02:24.322 --> 02:46.835\n我們認為是有再調整的必要,不過也跟我們報告,這一個把它變成一個刑事責任還是在去年修法的時候才接受是是是,來請法務部認為這樣的法定型有沒有調整的必要我們尊重權者機關,我們也贊同權者機關的就認為有調整的必要嘛,好來請司法院\n\n02:47.996 --> 02:57.408\n你們至於支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷、訂立不同的量刑基準\n\n02:59.457 --> 03:19.274\n我們尊重那個有權責機關的來權責機關就你們啊量刑基準不是司法院嗎是那我們那個什麼還尊重權責機關我老天啊對不起我的意思是說這個量刑設定量刑的基準我們目前有在討論那個量刑的什麼時候討論得出來\n\n03:21.708 --> 03:45.167\n問題很嚴重啊!速度要快啊!沒有關係啦!因為今天主席請邵家廷來嘛!沒關係把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳啦!這個事情絕對不能再拖二二一了!接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題嘛!\n\n03:47.409 --> 04:11.094\n這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候第二條的修法理由我全部都拜讀完了我看完了以後他造成了一個很大的困擾那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中那衛福部之前說要訂執法現在還有要訂嗎\n\n04:12.612 --> 04:21.706\n沒有,現在大概就是我們會用一個解釋的方式來做出解釋什麼時候做出來在千半鐘\n\n04:22.099 --> 04:42.356\n正在前半當中。」你們在解釋內容是什麼?有幾個。第一個就是說實際真實人物的部分的話,當然就是...這不用說?不用說。虛擬的部分的話,原則上是不管,但是有幾個。那個女真的、AI女真的,要放進來。\n\n04:44.137 --> 05:12.816\n二、如果涉及到人社交、虐待、暴力這部分就回到刑法所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嗎?對,原則上是不會動漫化的但我現在就要講得很清楚了就是說4月的時候李立芬次長好像有對外面表示說動漫的部分\n\n05:14.362 --> 05:31.663\n會依照違反刑法235條來加以處理。」這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎?呃這是說它的內容如果有這種我的意思是說啦就是回到刑法對不會用兒少、性剝削、防治條例來處理是這是衛福部的立場嘛對來法務部\n\n05:35.035 --> 05:58.147\n衛福部這樣子的立場法務部同意嗎?先停一下不要尊重權責機關啊因為犯罪事實啊移到法務部啊檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊這個不是說衛福部剛表明他們的立場嗎所以我現在問法務部的立場法務部要有立場啊所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理?\n\n06:04.606 --> 06:28.567\n這裡要講清楚啊!女真AI當然就不用講嘛動漫的部分會不會講清楚啊動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散佈猥褻物品所以不會用兒少性剝削防治條例法務部立場要講清楚讓所有的檢察官聽到4-617號來處理\n\n06:32.836 --> 06:49.216\n所以不會用兒童性撥券防治條例處理對不對?是嗎?政策立場上嘛當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官我老實講啦我作為法律人士有個超級大問號啦行政機關都這樣講但檢察官行使職權是獨立啦\n\n06:52.287 --> 07:06.729\n市長我有沒有講錯沒錯對嘛所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊是你們在政策採取這樣的立場你下一步你馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎這個問題很重要啊\n\n07:08.140 --> 07:31.613\n法務部回去好好研究好不好要透過什麼樣子的手段我們可以合法的讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文使用上面要很慎重我們要打擊該打擊的人不要濫殺無辜法制作業上要怎麼做法務部回去好好研擬清楚好不好好我為什麼會講這件事情因為\n\n07:33.834 --> 08:02.001\n用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡有沒有違反性剝削及防治條例第36條的規定?衛福部說有嘛法務部說呢?法務部呢?有嘛但問題來了目前實務上面我國法院的見解有的說有罪有的直接宣告沒有罪\n\n08:03.181 --> 08:29.375\n為什麼會宣告沒有罪跟2023年的修正又有關係啦主席站起來但是這題很重要我趕快把它講完請司法院帶回去好好研究這不是開玩笑的啊之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡這一定是違反兒少性剝削防治條例36條的規定也判有罪了高等法院也維持這樣的見解了但\n\n08:30.612 --> 08:53.246\n最高法院110年度台上制1847號刑事判決,援引2023年修法理由以後的見解。」出來的見解是什麼來我唸給大家聽喔。被告以偵恐攝影機偷拍假女洗澡的電子訊號有沒有符合俄上性剝削防治條例第二條第一項第三款及紅條例36條的性影像。\n\n08:56.229 --> 09:10.724\n最高法院提出質疑發回了以後要高等法院好好注意發回以後發生什麼事情沒罪為什麼他在客觀上不是引起他人信譽的舉動或行為的猥褻行為\n\n09:12.389 --> 09:23.685\n法官獨立審判我們一定尊重但當我們的司法實務上面出現了一人一把號各吹各的調甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點容我這樣講\n\n09:28.272 --> 09:54.582\n難以接受啊難以接受啊這個實務上的動態喔衛福部也好法務部也好司法院也好要清楚的掌握要不然立法者在這邊立了半天結果法院判沒有罪放人大家都不知道這不是開玩笑的事情欸這個最高法院的見解接下來要怎麼處理要怎麼面對衛福部、法務部、司法院\n\n09:55.799 --> 10:22.017\n你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下好不好因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊部長您贊不贊成這在我們的耳塞星波區的諮詢委員會裡面我們就找這些單位一起討論法務部同不同意?同意司法院同不同意?同意要怎麼處理這件事情喔?趕快有一個解決的方法提一個書面報告來給大家好不好\n\n10:23.188 --> 10:31.539\n一個月內可以嗎?可以,好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌委員發言。接下來請李燕秀委員發言。\n\n","segments":[{"start":7.058,"end":18.645,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請衛福利部部長、法務部的檢察司司長、司法院邵家廳的副廳長那個法官要上來協助"},{"start":40.43,"end":52.262,"text":"二、三位好,是有關係喔,不宜問候。兒少啊,性剝削的人數啊,節節攀升,那當然這個是通報的狀況嘛。從2017年1060人到2022年,我現在有的data已經到2280人了。"},{"start":57.967,"end":84.177,"text":"除了人數不斷攀升以外讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為的物品這一種樣態的違法態樣比例不斷的在攀升如果我們以2022年來講已經到了86%了相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪那衛福部也說了事實上"},{"start":85.057,"end":109.679,"text":"我們看到人數不斷攀升比例再那麼高其實黑數還是很大因為牽涉到了被害人他是不是真的在目前的法律機制下有足夠的機制讓他願意出來這真的是一件不容易的事情因為他可能會造成的是他自己的社會生活既有的家庭生活、人際關係都會造成非常大"},{"start":110.8,"end":131.278,"text":"負面衝擊的影響。」這個我們大家都了解那接下來就是說我們目前持有兒少性影響的處罰沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑從比較法的觀點來看我們應該是延續著日本法律跟德國比跟美國比相對而言都是輕嘛"},{"start":132.499,"end":143.027,"text":"現在的問題來了就是說目前這樣子的法定型從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度認為有沒有調整的必要"},{"start":144.322,"end":166.835,"text":"我們認為是有再調整的必要,不過也跟我們報告,這一個把它變成一個刑事責任還是在去年修法的時候才接受是是是,來請法務部認為這樣的法定型有沒有調整的必要我們尊重權者機關,我們也贊同權者機關的就認為有調整的必要嘛,好來請司法院"},{"start":167.996,"end":177.408,"text":"你們至於支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷、訂立不同的量刑基準"},{"start":179.457,"end":199.274,"text":"我們尊重那個有權責機關的來權責機關就你們啊量刑基準不是司法院嗎是那我們那個什麼還尊重權責機關我老天啊對不起我的意思是說這個量刑設定量刑的基準我們目前有在討論那個量刑的什麼時候討論得出來"},{"start":201.708,"end":225.167,"text":"問題很嚴重啊!速度要快啊!沒有關係啦!因為今天主席請邵家廷來嘛!沒關係把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳啦!這個事情絕對不能再拖二二一了!接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題嘛!"},{"start":227.409,"end":251.094,"text":"這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候第二條的修法理由我全部都拜讀完了我看完了以後他造成了一個很大的困擾那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中那衛福部之前說要訂執法現在還有要訂嗎"},{"start":252.612,"end":261.706,"text":"沒有,現在大概就是我們會用一個解釋的方式來做出解釋什麼時候做出來在千半鐘"},{"start":262.099,"end":282.356,"text":"正在前半當中。」你們在解釋內容是什麼?有幾個。第一個就是說實際真實人物的部分的話,當然就是...這不用說?不用說。虛擬的部分的話,原則上是不管,但是有幾個。那個女真的、AI女真的,要放進來。"},{"start":284.137,"end":312.816,"text":"二、如果涉及到人社交、虐待、暴力這部分就回到刑法所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嗎?對,原則上是不會動漫化的但我現在就要講得很清楚了就是說4月的時候李立芬次長好像有對外面表示說動漫的部分"},{"start":314.362,"end":331.663,"text":"會依照違反刑法235條來加以處理。」這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎?呃這是說它的內容如果有這種我的意思是說啦就是回到刑法對不會用兒少、性剝削、防治條例來處理是這是衛福部的立場嘛對來法務部"},{"start":335.035,"end":358.147,"text":"衛福部這樣子的立場法務部同意嗎?先停一下不要尊重權責機關啊因為犯罪事實啊移到法務部啊檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊這個不是說衛福部剛表明他們的立場嗎所以我現在問法務部的立場法務部要有立場啊所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理?"},{"start":364.606,"end":388.567,"text":"這裡要講清楚啊!女真AI當然就不用講嘛動漫的部分會不會講清楚啊動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散佈猥褻物品所以不會用兒少性剝削防治條例法務部立場要講清楚讓所有的檢察官聽到4-617號來處理"},{"start":392.836,"end":409.216,"text":"所以不會用兒童性撥券防治條例處理對不對?是嗎?政策立場上嘛當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官我老實講啦我作為法律人士有個超級大問號啦行政機關都這樣講但檢察官行使職權是獨立啦"},{"start":412.287,"end":426.729,"text":"市長我有沒有講錯沒錯對嘛所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊是你們在政策採取這樣的立場你下一步你馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎這個問題很重要啊"},{"start":428.14,"end":451.613,"text":"法務部回去好好研究好不好要透過什麼樣子的手段我們可以合法的讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文使用上面要很慎重我們要打擊該打擊的人不要濫殺無辜法制作業上要怎麼做法務部回去好好研擬清楚好不好好我為什麼會講這件事情因為"},{"start":453.834,"end":482.001,"text":"用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡有沒有違反性剝削及防治條例第36條的規定?衛福部說有嘛法務部說呢?法務部呢?有嘛但問題來了目前實務上面我國法院的見解有的說有罪有的直接宣告沒有罪"},{"start":483.181,"end":509.375,"text":"為什麼會宣告沒有罪跟2023年的修正又有關係啦主席站起來但是這題很重要我趕快把它講完請司法院帶回去好好研究這不是開玩笑的啊之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡這一定是違反兒少性剝削防治條例36條的規定也判有罪了高等法院也維持這樣的見解了但"},{"start":510.612,"end":533.246,"text":"最高法院110年度台上制1847號刑事判決,援引2023年修法理由以後的見解。」出來的見解是什麼來我唸給大家聽喔。被告以偵恐攝影機偷拍假女洗澡的電子訊號有沒有符合俄上性剝削防治條例第二條第一項第三款及紅條例36條的性影像。"},{"start":536.229,"end":550.724,"text":"最高法院提出質疑發回了以後要高等法院好好注意發回以後發生什麼事情沒罪為什麼他在客觀上不是引起他人信譽的舉動或行為的猥褻行為"},{"start":552.389,"end":563.685,"text":"法官獨立審判我們一定尊重但當我們的司法實務上面出現了一人一把號各吹各的調甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點容我這樣講"},{"start":568.272,"end":594.582,"text":"難以接受啊難以接受啊這個實務上的動態喔衛福部也好法務部也好司法院也好要清楚的掌握要不然立法者在這邊立了半天結果法院判沒有罪放人大家都不知道這不是開玩笑的事情欸這個最高法院的見解接下來要怎麼處理要怎麼面對衛福部、法務部、司法院"},{"start":595.799,"end":622.017,"text":"你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下好不好因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊部長您贊不贊成這在我們的耳塞星波區的諮詢委員會裡面我們就找這些單位一起討論法務部同不同意?同意司法院同不同意?同意要怎麼處理這件事情喔?趕快有一個解決的方法提一個書面報告來給大家好不好"},{"start":623.188,"end":631.539,"text":"一個月內可以嗎?可以,好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌委員發言。接下來請李燕秀委員發言。"}]}}}}