{"id":151702,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151702","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3f9689ceeec0b8ef7b903698ddfaa754ac68e374cd8c4bed00a64debb1b02432b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:29:57 - 13:48:53","影片長度":"00:18:56","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":1136,"end_time":"2024-04-24T13:48:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T13:29:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1404,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時30分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請衛福部薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，請部長看一下資料，這個是昨天新北市某醫院被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一事，不曉得部長有沒有掌握？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是新北市衛生局在調查當中。"],["劉委員建國：新北市衛生局在調查？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：我先不討論內容、動機是什麼，但是我現在給部長看歷年來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件，你看2011年新北亞東醫院、2014年臺東馬偕醫院、2017年臺北醫學大學附設醫院，我沒記錯的話，它應該有2次。2021年就最近而已，2年前，嘉義聖馬爾定醫院。這些都發生在手術過程中偷拍患者照片，並上傳網路社群，這確實把病患的照片流出，po網或不當使用，我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：可能都有散在的一些個案，但是基本上應該不是說很常見。"],["劉委員建國：我再給部長看一個資料，這是網友的對話，他說某次跟朋友聚餐，朋友的朋友是急診室醫師，聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看，看得實在很不舒服，現在回想起來，這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不清楚看到的是什麼東西，不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手術室的照片流出的情形，例如說這次的案件情形是不太一樣的。這種時常是醫生非常臭屁，他在炫耀治療了什麼病人、多嚴重、多會開刀，就會拿一些照片出來，如果是在開刀房拍的，有時候是基於學術上面的，因為醫院裡面都有會議，他必須要把病人的狀況跟同儕相互討論，所以有時候是必要的，但是給其他不相關的人看，那個行為就不好了。"],["劉委員建國：不是，這樣講怪怪的，我都認真在聽，你說有些臭屁的，這種臭屁的多還是少？你有沒有掌握？"],["薛部長瑞元：這很困難，有一些醫師就是會自我標榜很厲害，給不相關的人看。"],["劉委員建國：我為什麼會這麼講？放到網路是會被知道，醫師私底下如你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎樣，或者發現什麼個案，他就可以這樣拿去給別人看？"],["薛部長瑞元：不應該。"],["劉委員建國：都不應該嘛！這個沒有規範嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這本來就有洩漏病人隱私的法條，但是舉證會比較困難，除非看的人願意出來作證。"],["劉委員建國：醫療法第七十二條規定醫療機構及其人員因業務而知悉或持有病人病情或健康資訊，不得無故洩漏。違反的話，依第一百零三條可以處5萬元以上25萬元以下罰鍰，明明有醫療法的規定在，怎麼類似的案件還層出不窮？衛福部在2015年把過去的門診醫療隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範，從門診擴大到醫療機構全面適用，就是我拿的這張紙，總共715個字，我助理時間滿多的，還幫我算出總共715個字。這715個字裡面，到底有沒有落實去執行？是推廣不足？還是內容規範不夠？才會使相關人員有恃無恐，才會誠如部長所講的，還有這麼多臭屁的。"],["薛部長瑞元：這還是兩個方面，因為這些的規範是在醫療機構裡面，從事這些醫療業務，不管醫師或其他的人員，都必須要遵守。通常這一類行為的違反比較容易被看得到，但是剛剛委員提到的，有些個案是在手術室，手術室就是一個封閉的空間，病人已經麻醉的話，事實上他也不知情，靠的只有整個團隊互相舉發才有可能知道。另外一個情形就是剛才提到的，拿相片給朋友看，這就更屬於私德，看的人願意檢舉才看得到，因為他不是公開的。"],["劉委員建國：我要從另外一個角度去討論，這個會不會是一種陳疴、一種舊疾，舊有的疾病，從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範，會讓我覺得是不是這種隱私違反的規範強度不夠，不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再、再而三的發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度，因為終究這種案件不多，是我剛剛提到的那一種，有一些會把這些照片拿去給朋友看，這種行為比較多，他的問題是如果要適用法規的時候舉證的困難度。"],["劉委員建國：部長說這個案件不多，我怕你講完這句話會跑出很多。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會。"],["劉委員建國：我還是建議部長，這個規範有沒有討論的空間，是不是加強規範的強度。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，這個可以討論，這次的案件我們看看調查的結果是怎樣，如果屬實，在開刀房裡面真的有這樣的行為，這個部分就必須檢討我們整個規範是不是應該要有更強的強度。"],["劉委員建國：請部長重視這件事情，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：為什麼我會提起這個事件，因為報導者提到連兒少的身體都有進行拍攝，誠如部長講的，如果是醫療教學用途，至少還是要獲得監護人的同意，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：如果為了滿足私慾，甚至是要放到網路上供人閱覽等意圖，那又不一樣的狀況發生，所以我針對兒少性剝削也有提出修法版本，不過那天我強調的還是在前端，就是加強所有企圖以兒少影音、影像來圖利的罰則。這是在後端，後端不管罰多重，我一再強調前端的把關重要，如何避免兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容，避免兒少的資訊流出，這其實是非常非常重要的一件事情。請部長再看一下這則報導，因為抖音未做好兒童隱私保護，遭歐盟重罰新臺幣117億元，這是創下抖音遭開罰的歷史新高紀錄，也是歐盟首度對這個社群開罰，你看罰款何其之重，對不對？人家多重視嘛！在使用軟體上，你看到我們對未成年的動畫、遊戲要怎麼分級保護，上週一樣在委員會，部長也在嘛！問了相關單位，也用了很多的案例給部長和相關人員參考，真的是落差太大了，主責單位好像也沒有即刻回應我怎樣可以更積極的作為，我記得好像是1個月的時間要提供給委員會參考。另外，去年在家扶基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查，其中兒少使用網路社群負向經驗中，有超過2成的兒少會主動點擊進入標示未滿18歲警語的網頁，也有1成多會在網路上看到可怕血腥的內容。不只如此，我上週的質詢和現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制，最主要的目的是這個樣子。在家扶的報告裡面，有一個更令人憂心的地方，我不曉得部長知道冰棒這個軟體嗎？就app。"],["薛部長瑞元：不清楚。"],["劉委員建國：年紀上有落差，國中、高中職使用過冰棒的多達3成，我是指這樣的年紀，你們亂笑就是隱諱部長的年紀有一些了，你們回去自己再好好處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個軟體我就不知道。"],["劉委員建國：冰棒的app，這你知道吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["劉委員建國：這個app在Google平臺上顯示適合所有人，很多家長也同樣會用這款app來掌握小朋友的行蹤，同時可以互加好友，有時候就會變成有心人去掌握未成年所在地的app，雖然這個app已經在去年3月下架，但是類似交友的app仍不斷推出，而且在年齡上都是適合所有人，現在我把這些資料給部長參考，這些裡面會不會有我講的狀況持續再發生，這你們有掌握嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前當然是沒有，因為目前沒有一個機制可以去主動網上巡查，目前是沒有。"],["劉委員建國：今天數發部也有來，NCC也有來，這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理？我一直強調前端的管制、前端的處理，其實上個禮拜到現在應該一個禮拜多了。"],["詹主任文旭：委員好，NCC這邊先回報委員，委員上個禮拜質詢提到的「來自深淵烈日的黃金鄉」內容在YouTube和巴哈不同平臺、不同分級的狀況，我們有請iWIN去了解，看它的內容分級是不是符合現在的例示框架，根據iWIN檢視結果，YT的分級是符合的，因為有一些雖然是同一個片名，但是它的剪輯手法或打碼版本不同。"],["劉委員建國：因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的又不同？"],["詹主任文旭：它們在YT看到的是符合例示框架的，有一個是三級阻攔性的防護。至於在巴哈的版本，它自動把它升級，變成嚴格年齡限制，所以變成同一部片兩個平臺分級管制不同，其實是巴哈加碼了管制，管制得更嚴，目前了解是這樣子，跟委員回報。"],["劉委員建國：所以我提供這樣的一個訊息，基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解。"],["詹主任文旭：是的，我們就請iWIN去檢視、去了解。"],["劉委員建國：我們事先的監管機制是存在的，是必要的，也不需要因為發生什麼事情，我來提醒你們，你們才去做這樣的調查、了解。"],["詹主任文旭：基本上是業者自律，那些框架是業者要去遵循的，只要民眾向iWIN檢舉，iWIN就會去處理，就會去檢視內容是不是符合分級，如果不符合分級，就會通知業者自律，看是要下架或進一步處理，如果沒有進一步處理，涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理。"],["劉委員建國：但是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動去審視這些內容才是正道啊！"],["詹主任文旭：巡邏恐怕目前……"],["劉委員建國：人力不夠？經費不足？"],["詹主任文旭：是，目前還是靠業者自律，如果有檢舉事件，iWIN就會積極介入處理。"],["劉委員建國：你一定期盼要有人檢舉才有辦法處理？不是這樣吧！"],["詹主任文旭：目前iWIN是這樣，因為人力有限。"],["劉委員建國：我現在提供這些網路的社群呢？"],["詹主任文旭：如果涉及app的話，不是iWIN來管。像遊戲的話是數發部產業署在分級、在處理。"],["劉委員建國：但不是都遊戲啊！"],["詹主任文旭：交友軟體或app也是數發部產業署處理。"],["劉委員建國：是嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：報告委員，首先謝謝委員上次有提醒遊戲分級和Google不一致的部分，謝謝委員很好的提醒，其實我們事後有去了解，遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織，國家會訂在國內市售所有的遊戲分級，當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15和限制級，也就是18禁。謝謝委員有觀察到，主要是Google上架有自己公司的審核制度，只是它的審核制度跟我們沒有對上，但它還是有一個18禁，現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情，因為它有個12，我們有15就差一點，後來我們發現，委員也很仔細，我們查了一下分級，總共13款是限制級，然後去對應到Google裡面，剛好就是委員看到的那2款標示不一樣，我們現在已經跟Google講，因為兒少大家都很關心，假設我這邊是18禁，你一定要有18禁，所以我們已經有跟Ggoogle協調，以後我們都會加強區隔，我這邊18，你就一定要給我18，也不用任何的審議、審核、公司內部的規定，所以也謝謝委員，事後我們的做法是在我們這邊有18禁的話，我們也會在網路上看跟Ggoogle不一樣的，我們如果有發現，主動去跟Google聯繫，這邊先跟委員說謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：所以是因為有提醒，所以現在你們18禁，它們就要比照你們18禁，對不對！你們現在也會主動去審視這些。"],["林組長青嶔：定期會去找，找完再勾稽，如果我們有看到，而業者不處理的話，我們後續會做一些適當的處置，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：我現在講的這些呢？"],["林組長青嶔：我們負責遊戲，交友的部分現在院裡面大概有在協調主管機關，目前主要是給內政部處理這件事，還剩最後的一些處理，我不方便回答。"],["劉委員建國：今天內政部有來嗎？警政署？你有聽到喔！交友就是內政部主管。"],["賈警政委員樂吉：這個議題有在內政部討論過。"],["劉委員建國：多久會有個結果？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：我看期程應該這個月內大概就會有消息，它會提到行政院層級來討論。"],["劉委員建國：提到行政院層級來討論，所以這個月應該會有結果？這個月快到了，我就等你。"],["賈警政委員樂吉：是下個月。"],["劉委員建國：是這個月還是下個月？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：下個月。"],["劉委員建國：就是確定由誰來主責？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：是。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員楊曜、盧縣一、蘇清泉、鍾佳濱、牛煦庭所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、面對嚴重家庭暴力案件，衛福部該如何積極作為？","問題：近期媒體報導，某政黨要角爆發家暴案件，長期是家暴慣犯，他動輒羞辱、怒罵妻兒的行為，甚至逼得出身企業望族的妻子忍不住多次向家暴中心、在地警方通報，甚至加害人有多次遭通報家暴的紀錄，記者如此鉅細靡遺的寫出被害人家暴的內容，想請教衛福部，有無主動調查該案所在之社會局，有無洩漏被害人個案案件內容的狀況發生？在維護媒體第四權的狀況下，與被害人個人隱私如何取得平衡點？","而媒體報導表示，被害人礙於名門身分、媒體輿論，並避免孩子遭受異樣眼光，只能選擇煎熬隱忍不離婚，儘管加害人妻兒尚無肢體暴力或驗傷紀錄，但依法，言語、精神暴力亦是家暴型態的一種，請問衛福部，針對此個案，社會局有無開案？若無開案，要如何協助加害人的妻兒？面對眾多家暴案件，被害人選擇隱忍，即便社工、社福機構主動接觸，但被害人仍以諸多理由選擇不開案，政府資源無法介入協助當事人，更有甚者，被害人死亡或經媒體披露，才見相關機關有主動作為，為此，當受害者會面臨施暴者的威脅、恐嚇而不敢通報或接受服務時，衛福部要如何指導地方政府社會局該有積極作為？","二、要如何針對曾待過家暴家庭之未成年小孩持續性關懷？","問題：媒體報導，多名處理過家暴案的社工向媒體表示，家暴不能直接說會遺傳，但目睹或曾經身處暴力現場的人，卻有可能模仿或學習這類行為，衛福部曾統計，發生家暴案的家庭中，約有1成家庭的青年或兒童過去曾目睹家暴行為，而可能出現做惡夢、尿床、焦慮、退縮，甚至有攻擊、傷人等行為，他們成年後成為家暴加害者的比例，更是一般人的5～10倍，這些創傷的修復有賴社會安全網絡的介入，提供情緒支持、輔導及關懷，請問衛福部，是否研議運用大數據，針對目睹或曾經身處暴力現場的未成年小孩，做出更詳盡的分析，進而建構出一套完善的追蹤輔導機制，避免家暴世襲化？","三、應通盤檢討《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》所規範接受輔導教育者，地方政府辦理情形及研議是否納入身心治療機制","問題：在《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》規定，若犯本法部分條例者，必須接受一定時數的輔導教育，本席要求請衛福部，在一個月內通盤檢討全國各縣市因犯《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》者，必須接受輔導教育的實施狀況及遭遇困境並提供資料給本席，再者，根據《兒童及少年性剝削行為人輔導教育辦法》，輔導教育之執行方式，得以實體授課、數位教學或其他方式辦理，常見的辦理就是上課看影片，宛如道安講習，為此，本席要求，《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》應比照《性侵害犯罪防治法》，納入評估是否應接受身心治療，衛福部看法為何？","四、如何建立快速性影像網站的斷網標準作業流程？","問題：據媒體報導，非法網站兜售兒少性影像初估獲利高達三千萬，在誘人的獲利，肯定會有人鋌而走險，以性犯罪網站「創意私房」論壇為例，台北地方法院2021年12月曾扣押性犯罪網站「創意私房」網域名稱，透過停止解析讓民眾無法連上網頁，但後來創意私房又換了其他網域，因此仍有運作，在今年4/10時，數位部已收到衛福部公文，該論壇已遭封網。","就實際執行面來看，數位部主管的財團法人台灣網路資訊中心為執行單位，並不會去判斷網頁內容是否違法，若台灣網路資訊中心接獲法院裁定、行政機關依法裁處的行政處分，或收到透過緊急案件機制申請的惡意網域時，可執行停止解析，避免民眾連接不法網站，如果不屬於以上情形，基於緊急社會安全需求也可以執行停止解析。","請教衛福部，最早何時得知創意私房論壇又換了其他網域，仍持續運作中，因應作為為何？另有業者表示，創意私房論壇轉址作法，是非法業者慣用手法，原使用網址被封鎖後，非法業者馬上轉址，不久又冒出新的網頁，依創意私房論壇的案例來看亦是如此，非法性犯罪網站業者用轉址方式讓兒少性影像繼續流傳，請教衛福部，要如何建立SOP與數位部合作，在獲知非法性犯罪網站後，第一時間阻斷兒少性影像繼續散佈？修法授權衛福部封鎖境外兒少性影像網站是否為方式之一？","衛福部身為《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》主管機關，如何避免非法網站經營者，窮盡各種方式，如更換網站名稱、經營者、更換網域等方式讓網站能夠苟延殘喘的繼續經營下去。","五、衛福部是否研議《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，比照《性侵害犯罪防治法》將各機關所負責之業務明確入法？","問題：依現行《性侵害犯罪防治法》第四條規定，明訂本法所定事項，主管機關及目的事業主管機關權責事項，近來發生非法網站兜售兒少性影像，引起社會大眾高度關心及不滿，但現今科技日新月異，發現各機關權責劃分似有模糊地帶，導致各界對於此案件的處理進程多有不滿，為此，本席建議，衛福部應將《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，比照《性侵害犯罪防治法》將各機關所負責之業務明確入法。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","一、受暴婦女收容量能，地方中長期庇護所受限預算不足，是否能夠增加？根據2023-08-13聯合報報導：「全台庇護資源分布不均，衛福部統計：台北市收容人數為全台最多有一五一人，苗栗縣、台東縣、澎湖及金門、馬祖則完全無資源，收容人數超過五十人以上的包含台北市，僅有台中、桃園、新北與屏東等5縣市。……高風險受暴者，通常需入住中長期庇護所，但全台目前僅有廿處中長期庇護所，雖可入住一到二年，依衛福部統計，平均每人安置時間僅有八點五六個月，緊急短期安置可住三個月，但平均也僅安置廿六點八天。」請問衛福部：受暴人數增加、收容人數下降。原因何在？如何提升庇護所收容量能？","二、受暴婦女須經法院訴訟程序、學習經濟生活獨立等，至少要長時間才能自立，衛福部、內政部是否能合作學習國外作法：讓受暴婦女自己決定：居住庇護時間應該要多長？現行作法如何決定其居住庇護所時間長短？","三、常見「保護令」無法完全隔絕「加害人」持續騷擾「被害人」，請問：法務部、司法院：可否統計近3年以來，申請人申請「保護令」及違反保護令之件數統計，違反保護令後，司法機關之因應作為？","四、請問衛福部、數發部、法務部：報載，自112年2月修正《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》之後至今，僅9件案件對非法網站採取「封網」手段，「封網」困難何在？"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","根據衛福部統計，台灣每年通報的兒少性剝削受害者逐年上升，2022年更是有超過2200名受害者通報，且男性受害者佔超過三成。","非法網站創意私房在這個平台上，不僅有許多受剝削未成年女性的性私密影像，也包含許多完全「不知情」遭拍攝的無辜女性，這些女性很可能只是在校園、公眾場所如廁，就莫名遭偷拍，然後被放上公開的網路平台。政府應具體研議遏止境外平台的影片散布模式，讓部分刻意設置海外、有高度隱蔽性的平台，在出現這類型的犯罪型態時，必須配合優先下架影片，衛福部是否與數位部、警政機關共同研擬對策來阻止憾事發生？","近5年家庭暴力通報數據中，108年有12萬8198件通報、109年14萬1872件、110年14萬9198件、111年15萬6864件、112年有16萬8331件；其中在通報占比中，以親密關係暴力為最高。在婦女遭受親密關係暴力盛行率所做的全國性調查發現，遭受精神、跟蹤及騷擾、經濟、肢體、性暴力中任一種暴力的1年盛行率是8.99%，終生盛行率是19.62%，且無論是1年盛行率還是終生盛行率，都以精神暴力占最多（8.53%、16.76%）、其次是經濟暴力（2.03%、7.2%）、肢體暴力（1.52%、7.97%）、性暴力（1.53%、4.85%），與跟蹤及騷擾（1.38%、4.8%）。對於家暴受害人來說，要尋求資源是一大難題，資格也未必符合──例如台北市婦女中途之家，規範狀況包括「遭遇離婚、喪偶、夫服刑或失蹤、未婚懷孕及其他家庭變故等因素，而必須獨立照顧共同生活之18歲以下未婚子女的單親媽媽」，沒能離婚的家暴受害人是否符合「其他家庭變故」呢？又，受害人真的會想去庇護機構嗎？","居住屏東新園鄉共和村43歲余男因在家焚燒物品，遭63歲父親喝令制止，余嫌憤而徒手毆打其父親，父親奪門逃離住處，余嫌竟隨後騎乘機車並持刀追至鄰居家門前，手持菜刀及水果刀持續向其父親揮砍，其父雖手持板凳抵擋，頭部仍遭砍傷。警方獲報迅速到場並通知救護車將63歲余父送醫，經治療後頭部有傷口及身體多處擦挫傷，無生命危險。另余嫌犯下家暴犯行後即逃回住處躲藏，經警方手持盾牌及齊眉棍以優勢警力攻堅後將余嫌逮捕，全案依刑法殺人未遂罪及家庭暴力罪移送屏東地檢署偵辦。像這種同住家暴情況估計不是第一次發生，政府有何做法可以提早因應？","家暴型的創傷壓力症候群是一連串家庭事件所引發，這類型的患者主要有3個特徵，包括過度警覺、注意力無法集中，且對於相關人事物的線索都會有逃避情況，若孤軍奮戰，可能會陷入嚴重憂鬱。政府應該整合現有機制，讓遭受家暴的人從心理上生活上免於孤單，希望衛福部能與警政機構一同來聯繫處理好嗎？"],["委員鍾佳濱書面質詢：","按《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，保護兒童及少年免於遭致性剝削，乃普世價值。且依據聯合國《兒童權利公約》第三十四條及《兒童權利公約關於買賣兒童、兒童賣淫和兒童色情製品問題的任擇議定書》，透過利益（如現金、物品或勞務）交換而侵犯兒童少年與其權利，即是對兒童少年之「性剝削」。","鑒於近年非法色情平台經常由平台經營者、拍攝製造影像提供者及購買性影像之會員三方組成產業鏈，朝向集團式、產業鏈型態模式發展之趨勢。若無購買行為，內容提供者既無利潤亦無動機繼續拍攝製造，即購買行為對於性影像傳播舉足輕重，惡性並未較拍攝製造之行為輕微。且購買或取得資格得以觀覽兒童或少年為性交或猥褻之行為，或其性影像等服務，無異鼓勵與金援兒少性剝削產業鏈之形成與發展。","惟近日個案更發展出可出價指定受害者及內容條件之違法性影像，網站內會有拍攝者瀏覽，並滿足會員的心願，此種懸賞行為無異於教唆犯罪。","爰此，請衛福部通盤檢視「購買兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為之影像者加重刑責」、「出價指定受害者及內容條件之違法性影像者視同教唆犯罪」及「非法色情平台由平台經營者、拍攝製造影像提供者及購買性影像者組成即視為組織犯罪」可行性，並於一個月內提出說明。"],["委員牛煦庭書面質詢：","有鑑於衛福部報告統計，去年家暴通報案量約十六萬八千件，每天平均有四百六十件，雖就數據呈現確實是有逐年上升之情形，然並不代表不好，而是顯示民眾自我保護意識逐漸提升且有相關法治觀念，爰此政府應鼓勵通報，使社會資源妥善介入予以協助。然隨通報案量提升，政府資源相比卻有跟不上之趨勢，不論是第一線面對之社工人力及家暴一站式服務處數量都明顯不足。","查110年資料顯示衛福部目前補助全台有18個民間單位，範圍僅涵蓋11個縣市，為配合全國現有156處社會福利服務中心，並建立共案協力與深化公私部門合作機制，以期建構更加完善之社會安全網。爰請衛福部針對擴大家暴一站式服務處涵蓋範圍提出研議辦法。","另查我國社工待在同單位之平均年資約3年，相較於歐美國家社工人員在現職單位平均工作年資達7.36年下相去甚遠，凸顯我國社工人員平均年資過短問題。工作穩定度不足不利於提供良好服務品質及經驗傳承，為因應隨家庭案件需求之變異性、複雜性及多元性，挑戰社工對案件需求之評估能力、社區資源之掌握程度以及危機介入之臨床能力等，皆需良好現職社工了解情況以利經驗延續。故針對社工人才長久留任，請問有何相關補助或鼓勵計畫？","有鑑於先前數發部針對非法性論壇網站應盡速封網之事，稱認該部為執行機關，故封網此事僅能由法院或衛福部依《兒少性剝削條例》命其執行，然在等待網站關閉之過程不就等於放任已被受害人檢舉為非法偷拍性剝削的影片繼續在網站上供人瀏覽嗎？","查「創意私房論壇」色情網站，專賣各類偷拍性愛影片與猥褻照片，上架逾20萬部非法影片、近300名女性受害，其中包含不少未成年人，這非法論壇集團2021年時遭台北檢警查獲並封鎖網域，然才沉潛數月，就更換網域名稱繼續運作。主經營者「老馬」仍舊逍遙法外，故針對這類新興型態的數位性暴力，應更仰賴科技偵查技能，請問有何計畫以利數發部適當主動介入並改善網路性犯罪問題？爰請數發部研議辦法並有效建立控管機制，以杜絕違法網頁使受害人之非法性影像繼續流竄在網路上。","另查衛福部最新台灣兒少性剝削通報案件總共有2,271件，其中8成6之比例皆與性私密影像相關，更有家庭暴力研究中心調查指出，台灣18歲以上、74歲以下之成年人，高達7成曾遭遇過至少一種類型之數位性別暴力，可認數位性暴力已是無法忽視的犯罪問題。然我國警政機關卻未有數位性犯罪專責單位。受害者於派警局報案經驗往往不佳，第一線面對之警員亦可能缺乏專業知識、輕忽案件嚴重性。雖各縣市婦幼隊相對有經驗，卻也不是專責單位。故針對此問題，爰請內政部警政署提出建立數位性犯罪專責單位之計畫。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（13時49分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 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\"text\": \"應該不會我還是建議部長是不是對這個規範裡面有沒有討論的空間是不是加強那個規範的強度當然這個可以來討論以這一次的案件我們看調查結果是怎麼樣如果看起來的話\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 427.482, \"end\": 430.786, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 430.786, \"end\": 431.407, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"還\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 431.407, \"end\": 431.527, \"score\": 0.835}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 431.527, \"end\": 431.787, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"議\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 431.787, \"end\": 432.348, \"score\": 0.893}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 432.348, \"end\": 432.448, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 432.448, \"end\": 432.528, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 432.528, \"end\": 433.509, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"規\"}, {\"word\": \"範\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 433.509, \"end\": 434.15, \"score\": 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\"以\", \"start\": 486.77, \"end\": 486.83, \"score\": 0.333}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 486.83, \"end\": 486.89, \"score\": 0.814}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"兒\"}, {\"word\": \"少\", \"start\": 486.89, \"end\": 486.93, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"性\", \"start\": 486.93, \"end\": 486.95, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"剝\"}, {\"word\": \"削\", \"start\": 486.95, \"end\": 486.97, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 489.451, \"end\": 513.628, \"text\": \"我又有提出這個修法版本不過那一天我的強調還是在前端就是說加強所有企圖與兒少、影音、影像來圖利的這個滑折這是在後端對不對那前端裡面你後端不管滑多重我一再強調是前端把關重要如何避免到這個兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容避免兒少的這個資訊去流出\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 489.451, \"end\": 489.592, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"又\", \"start\": 489.592, \"end\": 489.652, \"score\": 0.669}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 489.652, \"end\": 489.812, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 489.812, \"end\": 489.992, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 489.992, \"end\": 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\"目前當然是沒有,因為我們目前是沒有一個機制是可以去做主動的網站巡查目前是沒有對嘛,今天有蘇貨部也有來,NCC也有來,像這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理我一直強調前端的管制嘛,前端的處理那其實上個禮拜到現在也應該一個禮拜多了那個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 717.029, \"end\": 717.269, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 717.269, \"end\": 717.649, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 717.649, \"end\": 717.769, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 717.769, \"end\": 717.889, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 717.889, \"end\": 718.05, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 718.05, \"end\": 718.19, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 718.19, \"end\": 718.45, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 718.45, \"end\": 719.05, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 719.05, \"end\": 719.271, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 719.271, \"end\": 719.591, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 719.591, \"end\": 720.031, 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\"巡\", \"start\": 724.535, \"end\": 724.835, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 724.835, \"end\": 725.956, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 725.956, \"end\": 726.156, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 726.156, \"end\": 726.337, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 726.337, \"end\": 726.517, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 726.517, \"end\": 726.717, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 726.717, \"end\": 727.417, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"嘛\", \"start\": 727.417, \"end\": 727.558, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 727.558, \"end\": 727.698, \"score\": 0.859}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 727.698, \"end\": 727.818, \"score\": 0.973}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 727.818, \"end\": 728.699, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"蘇\"}, {\"word\": \"貨\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 728.699, \"end\": 728.859, \"score\": 0.871}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 728.859, 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\"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 735.284, \"end\": 735.524, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"端\", \"start\": 735.524, \"end\": 735.685, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 735.685, \"end\": 736.045, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 736.045, \"end\": 737.206, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 737.206, \"end\": 737.326, \"score\": 0.963}, {\"word\": \"其\", \"start\": 737.326, \"end\": 737.466, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"實\"}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 737.466, \"end\": 737.786, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 737.786, \"end\": 737.946, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 737.946, \"end\": 738.267, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 738.267, \"end\": 738.447, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 738.447, \"end\": 739.448, \"score\": 0.936}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 739.448, \"end\": 739.768, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"禮\"}, {\"word\": \"拜\", \"start\": 739.768, \"end\": 739.968, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 739.968, \"end\": 740.168, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 740.168, \"end\": 742.45, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 742.45, \"end\": 742.47, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"個\"}]}, {\"start\": 743.755, \"end\": 773.335, \"text\": \"ACC這邊先回報委員好先回報委員這個委員上個禮拜質詢提到的那個來自深淵烈日的黃金箱那個內容在youtube跟巴哈不同平台不同分級的這個我們有請那個iWIN去了解去看那個內容他的分級是不是符合現在的歷史框架那根據iWIN那個檢視結果YT的那個分級是符合的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"A\", \"start\": 743.755, \"end\": 744.075, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 744.075, \"end\": 744.195, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"C\", \"start\": 744.195, \"end\": 744.396, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"邊\"}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 744.396, \"end\": 745.396, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 745.396, 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{\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 765.35, \"end\": 765.51, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 765.51, \"end\": 766.23, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 766.23, \"end\": 766.39, \"score\": 0.992}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 766.39, \"end\": 766.65, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"歷\"}, {\"word\": \"史\", \"start\": 766.65, \"end\": 766.831, \"score\": 0.889}, {\"word\": \"框\", \"start\": 766.831, \"end\": 767.011, \"score\": 0.982}, {\"word\": \"架\", \"start\": 767.011, \"end\": 767.611, \"score\": 0.969}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 767.611, \"end\": 767.991, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"根\", \"start\": 767.991, \"end\": 768.672, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"i\", \"start\": 768.672, \"end\": 768.832, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"W\", \"start\": 768.832, \"end\": 769.953, \"score\": 0.946}, {\"word\": \"I\", \"start\": 769.953, \"end\": 770.153, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"N\", \"start\": 770.153, \"end\": 770.313, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 770.313, \"end\": 770.513, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"檢\"}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 770.513, \"end\": 771.033, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"Y\", \"start\": 771.033, \"end\": 771.273, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"T\", \"start\": 771.273, \"end\": 771.494, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 771.494, \"end\": 771.814, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 771.814, \"end\": 772.374, \"score\": 0.964}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 772.374, \"end\": 772.774, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 772.774, \"end\": 772.955, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"符\", \"start\": 772.955, \"end\": 773.115, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"合\", \"start\": 773.115, \"end\": 773.315, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 773.315, \"end\": 773.335, \"score\": 0.993}]}, {\"start\": 773.935, \"end\": 802.489, \"text\": \"因為有一些不同﹐雖然是同一個片名可是它的剪輯手法或者是打碼版本不同那我們也瞭解﹐因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的所以它分級就不同那這個他們在YT看到的是符合那個框架的歷史框架已經有一個等於是三級那個阻攔性的防護那至於在巴哈呢巴哈的版本他把\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 773.935, \"end\": 774.295, \"score\": 0.935}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 774.295, \"end\": 774.435, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 774.435, \"end\": 774.515, \"score\": 0.751}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 774.515, \"end\": 775.916, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 775.916, \"end\": 776.096, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 776.096, \"end\": 776.496, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"﹐\"}, {\"word\": \"雖\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 776.496, \"end\": 776.636, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 776.636, \"end\": 776.757, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 776.757, \"end\": 776.917, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 776.917, \"end\": 777.117, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"片\", 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\"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1133.448, \"end\": 1134.189, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"鍾\"}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 1134.189, \"end\": 1134.489, \"score\": 0.934}, {\"word\": \"斌\", \"start\": 1134.489, \"end\": 1134.709, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1134.709, \"end\": 1135.349, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}, {\"word\": \"鍾\"}, {\"word\": \"嘉\", \"start\": 1135.349, \"end\": 1135.63, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"斌\", \"start\": 1135.63, \"end\": 1135.85, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1135.85, \"end\": 1135.87, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"、\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:05,242 --> 00:00:23,052\n謝謝主席。邀請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。不然你看一下這個資料齁,這是昨天北市某醫院這個被\n\n2\n00:00:26,067 --> 00:00:39,541\n被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一次的事情,部長有沒有掌握?目前的話是新北市衛生局在調查當中。\n\n3\n00:00:42,663 --> 00:01:06,649\n我先不討論那個內容到底是動機是什麼但是我現在給部長看這個立天來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件你看2011年新北亞東醫院2014台東馬捷醫院2017台北醫學大學富士醫院我沒有記錯他應該有兩次然後2021就最近而已兩年前嘉義聖馬爾町醫院\n\n4\n00:01:09,984 --> 00:01:32,985\n這些都發生在這個手術過程中偷拍患者照片並上傳網路的社群。這個確實就是把病患的照片流出然後來做破網或不當的使用我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題\n\n5\n00:01:34,261 --> 00:01:58,735\n可能都有散在的一些個案但是基本上應該不是說很常見我再給部長看一個資料這是一個網友的對話他說他某次跟朋友聚餐朋友的朋友是急診室的醫師聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看那看了實在很不舒服\n\n6\n00:01:59,758 --> 00:02:20,319\n那現在回想起來,這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似?我是不清楚說這個看到是什麼東西,不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手勢式的這個照片流出的情形,也就是這一次的那個案件的情形是不太一樣。\n\n7\n00:02:22,013 --> 00:02:47,051\n這件事實際上,因為以前很臭皮的啦。當說他開,有在治療某種病人就落嚴重啦。什麼開刀,他落老虧啦。就拿一張這種訊息出來。那他在,如果是在開拉網開的,那照下來的,有時候是基於那個學術上面的,因為醫院裡面都有那個meeting嘛。\n\n8\n00:02:47,871 --> 00:03:04,603\n他必須要把這個病人的狀況跟同事去相互做討論所以有時候這個是必要的但是你給其他不相關的人那個行為就不好了\n\n9\n00:03:06,892 --> 00:03:22,589\n不是,部長,這個這樣講怪怪的啦齁,你剛才的隱喻是,我都認真在聽啦齁,你講我那臭皮的嘛齁,臭皮這臭皮多了酒,你有講了嗎?這大家很困難的講啦,有一些意思就是\n\n10\n00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:42,530\n有那種自我標榜,有什麼...不是喔,因為我為什麼會這麼講,放到網路是會被知道,那醫師私底下在就像你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎麼樣,還是他發生到什麼個案,他就可以這樣拿去給...都不應該嘛,這個沒有規範嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:46,721 --> 00:03:58,600\n這個是本來就有洩漏病人隱私的這一個法條文字都有啦但是要去舉證會比較困難因為除非說那個看的人願意出來作證\n\n12\n00:04:00,689 --> 00:04:24,434\n醫療法第七十二條規定,醫療機構及人員因業務而窒息或持有病人病情或健康資訊不得無故洩漏,違反的話,依103條可以處5萬到20萬以下的罰款。」這明明有醫療法的規定在,怎麼會這種類似的案件還層出不窮?然後你看衛福部在2015年的時候就這一張\n\n13\n00:04:30,919 --> 00:04:36,784\n這張A4的一張紙總共就是把過去是門診醫療的隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範從門診擴大到醫療機構全面試用就是我拿的這張紙共715個字這我助理時間還蠻多的還有辦法把它算出總共715個字\n\n14\n00:04:59,684 --> 00:05:09,614\n這715個字裡面是到底有沒有落實去執行?還是推廣不足?還是內容規範不夠?才會使這些相關人員有恃無恐?才會使陳獨部長所講的還有這麼一個臭婆爺?\n\n15\n00:05:14,274 --> 00:05:34,602\n這個還是兩個啦,因為這一些的規範來講是在醫療機構裡面那你從事這些醫療業務的話,不管是不是醫師還是其他人員都必須要去遵守的那通常這一類的嫌違的違反比較容易被看得到\n\n16\n00:05:35,822 --> 00:05:54,215\n但是剛剛委員提到的有一些個案是在手術室手術室就是一個封閉的空間那病人如果就已經麻醉的話那事實上他也不知情所以就靠的只有這整個的團隊裡面的互相取發才有可能知道\n\n17\n00:05:55,315 --> 00:06:19,956\n另外一個情形就是剛剛委員提到的,拿那個相片給他的朋友看,這個就更是屬於私的,這部分的話其實真的是看的人願意檢舉你才看得到,因為它不是公開的。不是,部長我要從第二個角度去討論,這個會不會是一種陳柯一種好像\n\n18\n00:06:20,518 --> 00:06:36,133\n救急救我的疾病從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範是不是會讓我覺得這種隱私維護規範的強度不夠不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生\n\n19\n00:06:37,743 --> 00:07:05,823\n我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度因為終究這種案件不多啦是我剛剛提到的那一種有一些會把這一些照片拿去給朋友看這一種可能這種行為是比較多但是他的問題就是說如果要適用法規的時候就舉證了困難度的問題部長你講這個案件不多我怕你講這句話完的時候會跑出很多\n\n20\n00:07:07,482 --> 00:07:26,444\n應該不會我還是建議部長是不是對這個規範裡面有沒有討論的空間是不是加強那個規範的強度當然這個可以來討論以這一次的案件我們看調查結果是怎麼樣如果看起來的話\n\n21\n00:07:29,088 --> 00:07:50,059\n屬實在開大法裡面真的有這樣子的行為,那這個的部分的話就必須要重新檢討我們整個的規範,是不是應該要有更強的強度。」好,就請部長重視這件事情好不好。那我為什麼會提這個報告事件,也因為這個報告者提到,連兒少的身體也都有進行拍攝。\n\n22\n00:07:51,683 --> 00:08:06,970\n這陳獨部長講的如果是醫療教學用途那自然還是要獲得監護人的同意嘛對不對那如果是為了滿職私域甚至是要放到網路上公然閱覽等意圖啦那又不一樣的一個狀況發生嘛所以我針對這個兒少性剝削\n\n23\n00:08:09,451 --> 00:08:33,628\n我又有提出這個修法版本不過那一天我的強調還是在前端就是說加強所有企圖與兒少、影音、影像來圖利的這個滑折這是在後端對不對那前端裡面你後端不管滑多重我一再強調是前端把關重要如何避免到這個兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容避免兒少的這個資訊去流出\n\n24\n00:08:34,787 --> 00:08:49,279\n這其實是一個非常非常重要的一些事情那請部長再看一下這個這則報導歐盟曾經因為未做好兒童隱私保護抖音遭歐盟撞華是新台幣117億\n\n25\n00:08:52,464 --> 00:09:11,538\n這是創造這個抖音招開華的歷史新高紀錄也是歐盟首度對這個社群去做這樣的一個開華你看那花款何其之重對不對人家多重視嘛然後在使用軟體上你看到我們對這個衛生聯的這個動畫啦玩的遊戲啦要怎麼分級保護上週一樣在這個委員會\n\n26\n00:09:18,445 --> 00:09:45,988\n部長也在嘛然後問了相關單位然後我也用了很多的案例給部長跟相關人做參考真的實在是落差太大了然後組織單位好像也沒有辦法即刻去回應我怎樣可以做更好的一個積極的一個作為我記得好像是一個月時間一個月時間要提供出來給委員會做參考\n\n27\n00:09:47,129 --> 00:10:12,161\n做這樣的一個處理。」那另外一個,去年在家福基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查,那其中兒少使用這個網路社群互相經驗中有超過兩成的兒少會主動點擊,然後進入這個標示未滿18歲檢疫的網頁,也有一成多會在網路上看到可怕的這個血腥的內容。不只如此,我想\n\n28\n00:10:13,803 --> 00:10:39,729\n我上週的質詢跟現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制的最主要的目的是這個樣子還有在家暴的這部分報導裡面有一個最比較令人更憂心的地方就是我不曉得部長知道這個冰棒這個軟體嗎?這個APP嗎?我不清楚你不清楚齁?這個聯繫上有落差了\n\n29\n00:10:41,841 --> 00:10:53,950\n國中、高中只使用過冰棒的都達三成。」我是指這樣的年紀裡面,真的亂笑,就是在引會部長的年紀有一些了。你們回去自己再好好處理。\n\n30\n00:10:58,115 --> 00:11:23,522\n兵棒的APP啊這你知道嗎?也不知道嗎?對啊好這個APP在Google平台上顯示是適合所有人適合所有人然後很多家長也同樣會用這款APP來掌握小朋友的行蹤同時可以這個互交好友這有時候就會變成有些人去掌握未成年所在地的APP的那雖然這個\n\n31\n00:11:25,816 --> 00:11:48,848\nApp已經在去年的3月下架,但是類似家偶的App能不斷的推出嗎?而且年齡齁,在年齡上都是括號,都是適合所有,適合所有人。現在我把這些資料給部長做參考,那這些裡面會不會由我講的這個狀況持續的再發生?這個你們有掌握嗎?\n\n32\n00:11:57,029 --> 00:12:22,470\n目前當然是沒有,因為我們目前是沒有一個機制是可以去做主動的網站巡查目前是沒有對嘛,今天有蘇貨部也有來,NCC也有來,像這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理我一直強調前端的管制嘛,前端的處理那其實上個禮拜到現在也應該一個禮拜多了那個\n\n33\n00:12:23,755 --> 00:12:53,335\nACC這邊先回報委員好先回報委員這個委員上個禮拜質詢提到的那個來自深淵烈日的黃金箱那個內容在youtube跟巴哈不同平台不同分級的這個我們有請那個iWIN去了解去看那個內容他的分級是不是符合現在的歷史框架那根據iWIN那個檢視結果YT的那個分級是符合的\n\n34\n00:12:53,935 --> 00:13:22,489\n因為有一些不同﹐雖然是同一個片名可是它的剪輯手法或者是打碼版本不同那我們也瞭解﹐因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的所以它分級就不同那這個他們在YT看到的是符合那個框架的歷史框架已經有一個等於是三級那個阻攔性的防護那至於在巴哈呢巴哈的版本他把\n\n35\n00:13:23,149 --> 00:13:38,087\n自動把它升級,變成嚴格年齡限制,所以變成同一部片,兩個平台那個分級管制不同,那其實是巴哈加碼的管制,所以管制得更嚴,巴哈的平台是,那目前了解是這樣子,那跟委員會報\n\n36\n00:13:39,514 --> 00:13:57,308\n所以我提供這樣的一個訊息基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解嗎?對不對?好,那就是事後,就是說我們事先的一個監管的機制是存在的、是必然、是必要在做的嗎?\n\n37\n00:13:58,129 --> 00:14:14,659\n也不需要說因為有發生什麼事情我來提醒你們你們才去做這樣的一個一個一個一個一個怎麼樣調查去瞭解嘛那個基本上是業者自律那些框架是業者要去遵循的對只要那個民眾向艾運檢舉\n\n38\n00:14:15,580 --> 00:14:35,095\nIWIN就會去處理就會去檢視那個內容然後是不是符合分級如果不符合分級就會通知業者自律看是要下架或者是進一步處理如果沒有進一步處理可能如果涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理這是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動\n\n39\n00:14:36,519 --> 00:15:04,125\n去審視這些內容才是正道啊。」那個巡邏齁是這個目前能力不夠是那目前還是靠業者自律啦靠業者自律如果說有檢舉事件那個iWIN就會積極介入處理你一定期盼要有人檢舉是要幫我處理不是這樣吧對目前iWIN是這樣子因為是能力有限那我現在提供這些網路的社群勒\n\n40\n00:15:05,938 --> 00:15:33,695\n網路的社群如果是涉及APP的話不是不是你管?不是IWIN來管因為如果像遊戲的話是那個誰管?是那個速發部產業署在分級在處理但這些不是這些不是都遊戲啊?這個交友軟體或者是那個APP也是速發部產業署在處理是嗎?那請主角上來\n\n41\n00:15:35,842 --> 00:15:58,637\n交流並不是你。」那個報告委員首先謝謝委員上次有提醒那個遊戲分級跟Google不一致的部分謝謝委員很好的提醒那其實我們後來事後有去了解因為主要是這樣子我們那個遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織然後國家會定在國內市售所有的遊戲分級那當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15跟\n\n42\n00:16:02,979 --> 00:16:30,670\n限制級就是18禁那謝謝委員有觀察到主要是Google它在上架它有自己公司的審核制度那只是它那個審核的制度跟我們沒有對上但是它還是有一個叫18禁但是我們現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情因為它有個12我們有15就才那後來我們發現也委員很仔細我們查了一下我們分級有總共13款是限制級然後去看對應到Google裡面\n\n43\n00:16:31,150 --> 00:16:59,796\n他剛好就是委員看到那兩款就是他標示不一樣那我們現在已經有跟Google講假設因為兒少大家都很關切假設我這邊是18禁你一定要有18禁所以我們已經有跟Google協調以後我們都會加強去做性格所以我這邊18你就一定要給我18也不用任何的審議啊審核公司內部的規定所以這邊也謝謝委員那事後我們的做法是我們在我們這邊有18禁的話我們也會在網路上去看有沒有\n\n44\n00:17:00,536 --> 00:17:26,711\n跟Google不一樣的。我們如果有發現,主動去跟Google做聯繫。」這邊先跟委員說謝謝。謝謝了。所以是因為有提醒,所以現在你們18禁,他們就要比照你們18禁就對了,對不對?好。你們現在也會變成主動的去來審視這些?近期去找,找完之後再勾結。如果業者,如果我們有看到他也自己不去處理的話,我們後續會做一些適當的處置。OK。我現在講的這些勒?\n\n45\n00:17:32,276 --> 00:17:53,171\n這邊交友的部分我們是負責遊戲嘛交友的部分現在院裡面有大概有在做協調交友的這個主管機關現在目前是主要是給內政部來去處理這件事情因為這個交友的部分那現在還在剩最後的一些處理這個我不方便回答謝謝那今天內政部有來嗎請證書來\n\n46\n00:18:02,096 --> 00:18:26,070\n你有聽到啦齁?交友就是你內政部喔?是內政部有另外一個時務部OK是好阿這個議題有在內政部裡面討論過好阿多久會有個結果?因為我看那個期程應該是這一個月內大概就會有消息他會提到行政院層級來做討論\n\n47\n00:18:30,096 --> 00:18:55,870\n提到行政院的成績在討論,所以這個月應該會有結果就對了。這個月快到了喔,那我就等你。是這個月還是下個月?下個月。就確定是由誰來組織就對了。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5242\t23052\t謝謝主席。邀請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。不然你看一下這個資料齁,這是昨天北市某醫院這個被\n26067\t39541\t被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一次的事情,部長有沒有掌握?目前的話是新北市衛生局在調查當中。\n42663\t66649\t我先不討論那個內容到底是動機是什麼但是我現在給部長看這個立天來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件你看2011年新北亞東醫院2014台東馬捷醫院2017台北醫學大學富士醫院我沒有記錯他應該有兩次然後2021就最近而已兩年前嘉義聖馬爾町醫院\n69984\t92985\t這些都發生在這個手術過程中偷拍患者照片並上傳網路的社群。這個確實就是把病患的照片流出然後來做破網或不當的使用我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題\n94261\t118735\t可能都有散在的一些個案但是基本上應該不是說很常見我再給部長看一個資料這是一個網友的對話他說他某次跟朋友聚餐朋友的朋友是急診室的醫師聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看那看了實在很不舒服\n119758\t140319\t那現在回想起來,這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似?我是不清楚說這個看到是什麼東西,不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手勢式的這個照片流出的情形,也就是這一次的那個案件的情形是不太一樣。\n142013\t167051\t這件事實際上,因為以前很臭皮的啦。當說他開,有在治療某種病人就落嚴重啦。什麼開刀,他落老虧啦。就拿一張這種訊息出來。那他在,如果是在開拉網開的,那照下來的,有時候是基於那個學術上面的,因為醫院裡面都有那個meeting嘛。\n167871\t184603\t他必須要把這個病人的狀況跟同事去相互做討論所以有時候這個是必要的但是你給其他不相關的人那個行為就不好了\n186892\t202589\t不是,部長,這個這樣講怪怪的啦齁,你剛才的隱喻是,我都認真在聽啦齁,你講我那臭皮的嘛齁,臭皮這臭皮多了酒,你有講了嗎?這大家很困難的講啦,有一些意思就是\n203650\t222530\t有那種自我標榜,有什麼...不是喔,因為我為什麼會這麼講,放到網路是會被知道,那醫師私底下在就像你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎麼樣,還是他發生到什麼個案,他就可以這樣拿去給...都不應該嘛,這個沒有規範嗎?\n226721\t238600\t這個是本來就有洩漏病人隱私的這一個法條文字都有啦但是要去舉證會比較困難因為除非說那個看的人願意出來作證\n240689\t264434\t醫療法第七十二條規定,醫療機構及人員因業務而窒息或持有病人病情或健康資訊不得無故洩漏,違反的話,依103條可以處5萬到20萬以下的罰款。」這明明有醫療法的規定在,怎麼會這種類似的案件還層出不窮?然後你看衛福部在2015年的時候就這一張\n270919\t276784\t這張A4的一張紙總共就是把過去是門診醫療的隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範從門診擴大到醫療機構全面試用就是我拿的這張紙共715個字這我助理時間還蠻多的還有辦法把它算出總共715個字\n299684\t309614\t這715個字裡面是到底有沒有落實去執行?還是推廣不足?還是內容規範不夠?才會使這些相關人員有恃無恐?才會使陳獨部長所講的還有這麼一個臭婆爺?\n314274\t334602\t這個還是兩個啦,因為這一些的規範來講是在醫療機構裡面那你從事這些醫療業務的話,不管是不是醫師還是其他人員都必須要去遵守的那通常這一類的嫌違的違反比較容易被看得到\n335822\t354215\t但是剛剛委員提到的有一些個案是在手術室手術室就是一個封閉的空間那病人如果就已經麻醉的話那事實上他也不知情所以就靠的只有這整個的團隊裡面的互相取發才有可能知道\n355315\t379956\t另外一個情形就是剛剛委員提到的,拿那個相片給他的朋友看,這個就更是屬於私的,這部分的話其實真的是看的人願意檢舉你才看得到,因為它不是公開的。不是,部長我要從第二個角度去討論,這個會不會是一種陳柯一種好像\n380518\t396133\t救急救我的疾病從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範是不是會讓我覺得這種隱私維護規範的強度不夠不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生\n397743\t425823\t我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度因為終究這種案件不多啦是我剛剛提到的那一種有一些會把這一些照片拿去給朋友看這一種可能這種行為是比較多但是他的問題就是說如果要適用法規的時候就舉證了困難度的問題部長你講這個案件不多我怕你講這句話完的時候會跑出很多\n427482\t446444\t應該不會我還是建議部長是不是對這個規範裡面有沒有討論的空間是不是加強那個規範的強度當然這個可以來討論以這一次的案件我們看調查結果是怎麼樣如果看起來的話\n449088\t470059\t屬實在開大法裡面真的有這樣子的行為,那這個的部分的話就必須要重新檢討我們整個的規範,是不是應該要有更強的強度。」好,就請部長重視這件事情好不好。那我為什麼會提這個報告事件,也因為這個報告者提到,連兒少的身體也都有進行拍攝。\n471683\t486970\t這陳獨部長講的如果是醫療教學用途那自然還是要獲得監護人的同意嘛對不對那如果是為了滿職私域甚至是要放到網路上公然閱覽等意圖啦那又不一樣的一個狀況發生嘛所以我針對這個兒少性剝削\n489451\t513628\t我又有提出這個修法版本不過那一天我的強調還是在前端就是說加強所有企圖與兒少、影音、影像來圖利的這個滑折這是在後端對不對那前端裡面你後端不管滑多重我一再強調是前端把關重要如何避免到這個兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容避免兒少的這個資訊去流出\n514787\t529279\t這其實是一個非常非常重要的一些事情那請部長再看一下這個這則報導歐盟曾經因為未做好兒童隱私保護抖音遭歐盟撞華是新台幣117億\n532464\t551538\t這是創造這個抖音招開華的歷史新高紀錄也是歐盟首度對這個社群去做這樣的一個開華你看那花款何其之重對不對人家多重視嘛然後在使用軟體上你看到我們對這個衛生聯的這個動畫啦玩的遊戲啦要怎麼分級保護上週一樣在這個委員會\n558445\t585988\t部長也在嘛然後問了相關單位然後我也用了很多的案例給部長跟相關人做參考真的實在是落差太大了然後組織單位好像也沒有辦法即刻去回應我怎樣可以做更好的一個積極的一個作為我記得好像是一個月時間一個月時間要提供出來給委員會做參考\n587129\t612161\t做這樣的一個處理。」那另外一個,去年在家福基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查,那其中兒少使用這個網路社群互相經驗中有超過兩成的兒少會主動點擊,然後進入這個標示未滿18歲檢疫的網頁,也有一成多會在網路上看到可怕的這個血腥的內容。不只如此,我想\n613803\t639729\t我上週的質詢跟現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制的最主要的目的是這個樣子還有在家暴的這部分報導裡面有一個最比較令人更憂心的地方就是我不曉得部長知道這個冰棒這個軟體嗎?這個APP嗎?我不清楚你不清楚齁?這個聯繫上有落差了\n641841\t653950\t國中、高中只使用過冰棒的都達三成。」我是指這樣的年紀裡面,真的亂笑,就是在引會部長的年紀有一些了。你們回去自己再好好處理。\n658115\t683522\t兵棒的APP啊這你知道嗎?也不知道嗎?對啊好這個APP在Google平台上顯示是適合所有人適合所有人然後很多家長也同樣會用這款APP來掌握小朋友的行蹤同時可以這個互交好友這有時候就會變成有些人去掌握未成年所在地的APP的那雖然這個\n685816\t708848\tApp已經在去年的3月下架,但是類似家偶的App能不斷的推出嗎?而且年齡齁,在年齡上都是括號,都是適合所有,適合所有人。現在我把這些資料給部長做參考,那這些裡面會不會由我講的這個狀況持續的再發生?這個你們有掌握嗎?\n717029\t742470\t目前當然是沒有,因為我們目前是沒有一個機制是可以去做主動的網站巡查目前是沒有對嘛,今天有蘇貨部也有來,NCC也有來,像這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理我一直強調前端的管制嘛,前端的處理那其實上個禮拜到現在也應該一個禮拜多了那個\n743755\t773335\tACC這邊先回報委員好先回報委員這個委員上個禮拜質詢提到的那個來自深淵烈日的黃金箱那個內容在youtube跟巴哈不同平台不同分級的這個我們有請那個iWIN去了解去看那個內容他的分級是不是符合現在的歷史框架那根據iWIN那個檢視結果YT的那個分級是符合的\n773935\t802489\t因為有一些不同﹐雖然是同一個片名可是它的剪輯手法或者是打碼版本不同那我們也瞭解﹐因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的所以它分級就不同那這個他們在YT看到的是符合那個框架的歷史框架已經有一個等於是三級那個阻攔性的防護那至於在巴哈呢巴哈的版本他把\n803149\t818087\t自動把它升級,變成嚴格年齡限制,所以變成同一部片,兩個平台那個分級管制不同,那其實是巴哈加碼的管制,所以管制得更嚴,巴哈的平台是,那目前了解是這樣子,那跟委員會報\n819514\t837308\t所以我提供這樣的一個訊息基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解嗎?對不對?好,那就是事後,就是說我們事先的一個監管的機制是存在的、是必然、是必要在做的嗎?\n838129\t854659\t也不需要說因為有發生什麼事情我來提醒你們你們才去做這樣的一個一個一個一個一個怎麼樣調查去瞭解嘛那個基本上是業者自律那些框架是業者要去遵循的對只要那個民眾向艾運檢舉\n855580\t875095\tIWIN就會去處理就會去檢視那個內容然後是不是符合分級如果不符合分級就會通知業者自律看是要下架或者是進一步處理如果沒有進一步處理可能如果涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理這是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動\n876519\t904125\t去審視這些內容才是正道啊。」那個巡邏齁是這個目前能力不夠是那目前還是靠業者自律啦靠業者自律如果說有檢舉事件那個iWIN就會積極介入處理你一定期盼要有人檢舉是要幫我處理不是這樣吧對目前iWIN是這樣子因為是能力有限那我現在提供這些網路的社群勒\n905938\t933695\t網路的社群如果是涉及APP的話不是不是你管?不是IWIN來管因為如果像遊戲的話是那個誰管?是那個速發部產業署在分級在處理但這些不是這些不是都遊戲啊?這個交友軟體或者是那個APP也是速發部產業署在處理是嗎?那請主角上來\n935842\t958637\t交流並不是你。」那個報告委員首先謝謝委員上次有提醒那個遊戲分級跟Google不一致的部分謝謝委員很好的提醒那其實我們後來事後有去了解因為主要是這樣子我們那個遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織然後國家會定在國內市售所有的遊戲分級那當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15跟\n962979\t990670\t限制級就是18禁那謝謝委員有觀察到主要是Google它在上架它有自己公司的審核制度那只是它那個審核的制度跟我們沒有對上但是它還是有一個叫18禁但是我們現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情因為它有個12我們有15就才那後來我們發現也委員很仔細我們查了一下我們分級有總共13款是限制級然後去看對應到Google裡面\n991150\t1019796\t他剛好就是委員看到那兩款就是他標示不一樣那我們現在已經有跟Google講假設因為兒少大家都很關切假設我這邊是18禁你一定要有18禁所以我們已經有跟Google協調以後我們都會加強去做性格所以我這邊18你就一定要給我18也不用任何的審議啊審核公司內部的規定所以這邊也謝謝委員那事後我們的做法是我們在我們這邊有18禁的話我們也會在網路上去看有沒有\n1020536\t1046711\t跟Google不一樣的。我們如果有發現,主動去跟Google做聯繫。」這邊先跟委員說謝謝。謝謝了。所以是因為有提醒,所以現在你們18禁,他們就要比照你們18禁就對了,對不對?好。你們現在也會變成主動的去來審視這些?近期去找,找完之後再勾結。如果業者,如果我們有看到他也自己不去處理的話,我們後續會做一些適當的處置。OK。我現在講的這些勒?\n1052276\t1073171\t這邊交友的部分我們是負責遊戲嘛交友的部分現在院裡面有大概有在做協調交友的這個主管機關現在目前是主要是給內政部來去處理這件事情因為這個交友的部分那現在還在剩最後的一些處理這個我不方便回答謝謝那今天內政部有來嗎請證書來\n1082096\t1106070\t你有聽到啦齁?交友就是你內政部喔?是內政部有另外一個時務部OK是好阿這個議題有在內政部裡面討論過好阿多久會有個結果?因為我看那個期程應該是這一個月內大概就會有消息他會提到行政院層級來做討論\n1110096\t1135870\t提到行政院的成績在討論,所以這個月應該會有結果就對了。這個月快到了喔,那我就等你。是這個月還是下個月?下個月。就確定是由誰來組織就對了。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、\n","txt":"謝謝主席。邀請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。不然你看一下這個資料齁,這是昨天北市某醫院這個被\n被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一次的事情,部長有沒有掌握?目前的話是新北市衛生局在調查當中。\n我先不討論那個內容到底是動機是什麼但是我現在給部長看這個立天來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件你看2011年新北亞東醫院2014台東馬捷醫院2017台北醫學大學富士醫院我沒有記錯他應該有兩次然後2021就最近而已兩年前嘉義聖馬爾町醫院\n這些都發生在這個手術過程中偷拍患者照片並上傳網路的社群。這個確實就是把病患的照片流出然後來做破網或不當的使用我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題\n可能都有散在的一些個案但是基本上應該不是說很常見我再給部長看一個資料這是一個網友的對話他說他某次跟朋友聚餐朋友的朋友是急診室的醫師聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看那看了實在很不舒服\n那現在回想起來,這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似?我是不清楚說這個看到是什麼東西,不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手勢式的這個照片流出的情形,也就是這一次的那個案件的情形是不太一樣。\n這件事實際上,因為以前很臭皮的啦。當說他開,有在治療某種病人就落嚴重啦。什麼開刀,他落老虧啦。就拿一張這種訊息出來。那他在,如果是在開拉網開的,那照下來的,有時候是基於那個學術上面的,因為醫院裡面都有那個meeting嘛。\n他必須要把這個病人的狀況跟同事去相互做討論所以有時候這個是必要的但是你給其他不相關的人那個行為就不好了\n不是,部長,這個這樣講怪怪的啦齁,你剛才的隱喻是,我都認真在聽啦齁,你講我那臭皮的嘛齁,臭皮這臭皮多了酒,你有講了嗎?這大家很困難的講啦,有一些意思就是\n有那種自我標榜,有什麼...不是喔,因為我為什麼會這麼講,放到網路是會被知道,那醫師私底下在就像你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎麼樣,還是他發生到什麼個案,他就可以這樣拿去給...都不應該嘛,這個沒有規範嗎?\n這個是本來就有洩漏病人隱私的這一個法條文字都有啦但是要去舉證會比較困難因為除非說那個看的人願意出來作證\n醫療法第七十二條規定,醫療機構及人員因業務而窒息或持有病人病情或健康資訊不得無故洩漏,違反的話,依103條可以處5萬到20萬以下的罰款。」這明明有醫療法的規定在,怎麼會這種類似的案件還層出不窮?然後你看衛福部在2015年的時候就這一張\n這張A4的一張紙總共就是把過去是門診醫療的隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範從門診擴大到醫療機構全面試用就是我拿的這張紙共715個字這我助理時間還蠻多的還有辦法把它算出總共715個字\n這715個字裡面是到底有沒有落實去執行?還是推廣不足?還是內容規範不夠?才會使這些相關人員有恃無恐?才會使陳獨部長所講的還有這麼一個臭婆爺?\n這個還是兩個啦,因為這一些的規範來講是在醫療機構裡面那你從事這些醫療業務的話,不管是不是醫師還是其他人員都必須要去遵守的那通常這一類的嫌違的違反比較容易被看得到\n但是剛剛委員提到的有一些個案是在手術室手術室就是一個封閉的空間那病人如果就已經麻醉的話那事實上他也不知情所以就靠的只有這整個的團隊裡面的互相取發才有可能知道\n另外一個情形就是剛剛委員提到的,拿那個相片給他的朋友看,這個就更是屬於私的,這部分的話其實真的是看的人願意檢舉你才看得到,因為它不是公開的。不是,部長我要從第二個角度去討論,這個會不會是一種陳柯一種好像\n救急救我的疾病從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範是不是會讓我覺得這種隱私維護規範的強度不夠不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生\n我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度因為終究這種案件不多啦是我剛剛提到的那一種有一些會把這一些照片拿去給朋友看這一種可能這種行為是比較多但是他的問題就是說如果要適用法規的時候就舉證了困難度的問題部長你講這個案件不多我怕你講這句話完的時候會跑出很多\n應該不會我還是建議部長是不是對這個規範裡面有沒有討論的空間是不是加強那個規範的強度當然這個可以來討論以這一次的案件我們看調查結果是怎麼樣如果看起來的話\n屬實在開大法裡面真的有這樣子的行為,那這個的部分的話就必須要重新檢討我們整個的規範,是不是應該要有更強的強度。」好,就請部長重視這件事情好不好。那我為什麼會提這個報告事件,也因為這個報告者提到,連兒少的身體也都有進行拍攝。\n這陳獨部長講的如果是醫療教學用途那自然還是要獲得監護人的同意嘛對不對那如果是為了滿職私域甚至是要放到網路上公然閱覽等意圖啦那又不一樣的一個狀況發生嘛所以我針對這個兒少性剝削\n我又有提出這個修法版本不過那一天我的強調還是在前端就是說加強所有企圖與兒少、影音、影像來圖利的這個滑折這是在後端對不對那前端裡面你後端不管滑多重我一再強調是前端把關重要如何避免到這個兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容避免兒少的這個資訊去流出\n這其實是一個非常非常重要的一些事情那請部長再看一下這個這則報導歐盟曾經因為未做好兒童隱私保護抖音遭歐盟撞華是新台幣117億\n這是創造這個抖音招開華的歷史新高紀錄也是歐盟首度對這個社群去做這樣的一個開華你看那花款何其之重對不對人家多重視嘛然後在使用軟體上你看到我們對這個衛生聯的這個動畫啦玩的遊戲啦要怎麼分級保護上週一樣在這個委員會\n部長也在嘛然後問了相關單位然後我也用了很多的案例給部長跟相關人做參考真的實在是落差太大了然後組織單位好像也沒有辦法即刻去回應我怎樣可以做更好的一個積極的一個作為我記得好像是一個月時間一個月時間要提供出來給委員會做參考\n做這樣的一個處理。」那另外一個,去年在家福基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查,那其中兒少使用這個網路社群互相經驗中有超過兩成的兒少會主動點擊,然後進入這個標示未滿18歲檢疫的網頁,也有一成多會在網路上看到可怕的這個血腥的內容。不只如此,我想\n我上週的質詢跟現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制的最主要的目的是這個樣子還有在家暴的這部分報導裡面有一個最比較令人更憂心的地方就是我不曉得部長知道這個冰棒這個軟體嗎?這個APP嗎?我不清楚你不清楚齁?這個聯繫上有落差了\n國中、高中只使用過冰棒的都達三成。」我是指這樣的年紀裡面,真的亂笑,就是在引會部長的年紀有一些了。你們回去自己再好好處理。\n兵棒的APP啊這你知道嗎?也不知道嗎?對啊好這個APP在Google平台上顯示是適合所有人適合所有人然後很多家長也同樣會用這款APP來掌握小朋友的行蹤同時可以這個互交好友這有時候就會變成有些人去掌握未成年所在地的APP的那雖然這個\nApp已經在去年的3月下架,但是類似家偶的App能不斷的推出嗎?而且年齡齁,在年齡上都是括號,都是適合所有,適合所有人。現在我把這些資料給部長做參考,那這些裡面會不會由我講的這個狀況持續的再發生?這個你們有掌握嗎?\n目前當然是沒有,因為我們目前是沒有一個機制是可以去做主動的網站巡查目前是沒有對嘛,今天有蘇貨部也有來,NCC也有來,像這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理我一直強調前端的管制嘛,前端的處理那其實上個禮拜到現在也應該一個禮拜多了那個\nACC這邊先回報委員好先回報委員這個委員上個禮拜質詢提到的那個來自深淵烈日的黃金箱那個內容在youtube跟巴哈不同平台不同分級的這個我們有請那個iWIN去了解去看那個內容他的分級是不是符合現在的歷史框架那根據iWIN那個檢視結果YT的那個分級是符合的\n因為有一些不同﹐雖然是同一個片名可是它的剪輯手法或者是打碼版本不同那我們也瞭解﹐因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的所以它分級就不同那這個他們在YT看到的是符合那個框架的歷史框架已經有一個等於是三級那個阻攔性的防護那至於在巴哈呢巴哈的版本他把\n自動把它升級,變成嚴格年齡限制,所以變成同一部片,兩個平台那個分級管制不同,那其實是巴哈加碼的管制,所以管制得更嚴,巴哈的平台是,那目前了解是這樣子,那跟委員會報\n所以我提供這樣的一個訊息基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解嗎?對不對?好,那就是事後,就是說我們事先的一個監管的機制是存在的、是必然、是必要在做的嗎?\n也不需要說因為有發生什麼事情我來提醒你們你們才去做這樣的一個一個一個一個一個怎麼樣調查去瞭解嘛那個基本上是業者自律那些框架是業者要去遵循的對只要那個民眾向艾運檢舉\nIWIN就會去處理就會去檢視那個內容然後是不是符合分級如果不符合分級就會通知業者自律看是要下架或者是進一步處理如果沒有進一步處理可能如果涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理這是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動\n去審視這些內容才是正道啊。」那個巡邏齁是這個目前能力不夠是那目前還是靠業者自律啦靠業者自律如果說有檢舉事件那個iWIN就會積極介入處理你一定期盼要有人檢舉是要幫我處理不是這樣吧對目前iWIN是這樣子因為是能力有限那我現在提供這些網路的社群勒\n網路的社群如果是涉及APP的話不是不是你管?不是IWIN來管因為如果像遊戲的話是那個誰管?是那個速發部產業署在分級在處理但這些不是這些不是都遊戲啊?這個交友軟體或者是那個APP也是速發部產業署在處理是嗎?那請主角上來\n交流並不是你。」那個報告委員首先謝謝委員上次有提醒那個遊戲分級跟Google不一致的部分謝謝委員很好的提醒那其實我們後來事後有去了解因為主要是這樣子我們那個遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織然後國家會定在國內市售所有的遊戲分級那當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15跟\n限制級就是18禁那謝謝委員有觀察到主要是Google它在上架它有自己公司的審核制度那只是它那個審核的制度跟我們沒有對上但是它還是有一個叫18禁但是我們現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情因為它有個12我們有15就才那後來我們發現也委員很仔細我們查了一下我們分級有總共13款是限制級然後去看對應到Google裡面\n他剛好就是委員看到那兩款就是他標示不一樣那我們現在已經有跟Google講假設因為兒少大家都很關切假設我這邊是18禁你一定要有18禁所以我們已經有跟Google協調以後我們都會加強去做性格所以我這邊18你就一定要給我18也不用任何的審議啊審核公司內部的規定所以這邊也謝謝委員那事後我們的做法是我們在我們這邊有18禁的話我們也會在網路上去看有沒有\n跟Google不一樣的。我們如果有發現,主動去跟Google做聯繫。」這邊先跟委員說謝謝。謝謝了。所以是因為有提醒,所以現在你們18禁,他們就要比照你們18禁就對了,對不對?好。你們現在也會變成主動的去來審視這些?近期去找,找完之後再勾結。如果業者,如果我們有看到他也自己不去處理的話,我們後續會做一些適當的處置。OK。我現在講的這些勒?\n這邊交友的部分我們是負責遊戲嘛交友的部分現在院裡面有大概有在做協調交友的這個主管機關現在目前是主要是給內政部來去處理這件事情因為這個交友的部分那現在還在剩最後的一些處理這個我不方便回答謝謝那今天內政部有來嗎請證書來\n你有聽到啦齁?交友就是你內政部喔?是內政部有另外一個時務部OK是好阿這個議題有在內政部裡面討論過好阿多久會有個結果?因為我看那個期程應該是這一個月內大概就會有消息他會提到行政院層級來做討論\n提到行政院的成績在討論,所以這個月應該會有結果就對了。這個月快到了喔,那我就等你。是這個月還是下個月?下個月。就確定是由誰來組織就對了。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.242 --> 00:23.052\n謝謝主席。邀請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。不然你看一下這個資料齁,這是昨天北市某醫院這個被\n\n00:26.067 --> 00:39.541\n被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一次的事情,部長有沒有掌握?目前的話是新北市衛生局在調查當中。\n\n00:42.663 --> 01:06.649\n我先不討論那個內容到底是動機是什麼但是我現在給部長看這個立天來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件你看2011年新北亞東醫院2014台東馬捷醫院2017台北醫學大學富士醫院我沒有記錯他應該有兩次然後2021就最近而已兩年前嘉義聖馬爾町醫院\n\n01:09.984 --> 01:32.985\n這些都發生在這個手術過程中偷拍患者照片並上傳網路的社群。這個確實就是把病患的照片流出然後來做破網或不當的使用我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題\n\n01:34.261 --> 01:58.735\n可能都有散在的一些個案但是基本上應該不是說很常見我再給部長看一個資料這是一個網友的對話他說他某次跟朋友聚餐朋友的朋友是急診室的醫師聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看那看了實在很不舒服\n\n01:59.758 --> 02:20.319\n那現在回想起來,這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似?我是不清楚說這個看到是什麼東西,不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手勢式的這個照片流出的情形,也就是這一次的那個案件的情形是不太一樣。\n\n02:22.013 --> 02:47.051\n這件事實際上,因為以前很臭皮的啦。當說他開,有在治療某種病人就落嚴重啦。什麼開刀,他落老虧啦。就拿一張這種訊息出來。那他在,如果是在開拉網開的,那照下來的,有時候是基於那個學術上面的,因為醫院裡面都有那個meeting嘛。\n\n02:47.871 --> 03:04.603\n他必須要把這個病人的狀況跟同事去相互做討論所以有時候這個是必要的但是你給其他不相關的人那個行為就不好了\n\n03:06.892 --> 03:22.589\n不是,部長,這個這樣講怪怪的啦齁,你剛才的隱喻是,我都認真在聽啦齁,你講我那臭皮的嘛齁,臭皮這臭皮多了酒,你有講了嗎?這大家很困難的講啦,有一些意思就是\n\n03:23.650 --> 03:42.530\n有那種自我標榜,有什麼...不是喔,因為我為什麼會這麼講,放到網路是會被知道,那醫師私底下在就像你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎麼樣,還是他發生到什麼個案,他就可以這樣拿去給...都不應該嘛,這個沒有規範嗎?\n\n03:46.721 --> 03:58.600\n這個是本來就有洩漏病人隱私的這一個法條文字都有啦但是要去舉證會比較困難因為除非說那個看的人願意出來作證\n\n04:00.689 --> 04:24.434\n醫療法第七十二條規定,醫療機構及人員因業務而窒息或持有病人病情或健康資訊不得無故洩漏,違反的話,依103條可以處5萬到20萬以下的罰款。」這明明有醫療法的規定在,怎麼會這種類似的案件還層出不窮?然後你看衛福部在2015年的時候就這一張\n\n04:30.919 --> 04:36.784\n這張A4的一張紙總共就是把過去是門診醫療的隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範從門診擴大到醫療機構全面試用就是我拿的這張紙共715個字這我助理時間還蠻多的還有辦法把它算出總共715個字\n\n04:59.684 --> 05:09.614\n這715個字裡面是到底有沒有落實去執行?還是推廣不足?還是內容規範不夠?才會使這些相關人員有恃無恐?才會使陳獨部長所講的還有這麼一個臭婆爺?\n\n05:14.274 --> 05:34.602\n這個還是兩個啦,因為這一些的規範來講是在醫療機構裡面那你從事這些醫療業務的話,不管是不是醫師還是其他人員都必須要去遵守的那通常這一類的嫌違的違反比較容易被看得到\n\n05:35.822 --> 05:54.215\n但是剛剛委員提到的有一些個案是在手術室手術室就是一個封閉的空間那病人如果就已經麻醉的話那事實上他也不知情所以就靠的只有這整個的團隊裡面的互相取發才有可能知道\n\n05:55.315 --> 06:19.956\n另外一個情形就是剛剛委員提到的,拿那個相片給他的朋友看,這個就更是屬於私的,這部分的話其實真的是看的人願意檢舉你才看得到,因為它不是公開的。不是,部長我要從第二個角度去討論,這個會不會是一種陳柯一種好像\n\n06:20.518 --> 06:36.133\n救急救我的疾病從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範是不是會讓我覺得這種隱私維護規範的強度不夠不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生\n\n06:37.743 --> 07:05.823\n我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度因為終究這種案件不多啦是我剛剛提到的那一種有一些會把這一些照片拿去給朋友看這一種可能這種行為是比較多但是他的問題就是說如果要適用法規的時候就舉證了困難度的問題部長你講這個案件不多我怕你講這句話完的時候會跑出很多\n\n07:07.482 --> 07:26.444\n應該不會我還是建議部長是不是對這個規範裡面有沒有討論的空間是不是加強那個規範的強度當然這個可以來討論以這一次的案件我們看調查結果是怎麼樣如果看起來的話\n\n07:29.088 --> 07:50.059\n屬實在開大法裡面真的有這樣子的行為,那這個的部分的話就必須要重新檢討我們整個的規範,是不是應該要有更強的強度。」好,就請部長重視這件事情好不好。那我為什麼會提這個報告事件,也因為這個報告者提到,連兒少的身體也都有進行拍攝。\n\n07:51.683 --> 08:06.970\n這陳獨部長講的如果是醫療教學用途那自然還是要獲得監護人的同意嘛對不對那如果是為了滿職私域甚至是要放到網路上公然閱覽等意圖啦那又不一樣的一個狀況發生嘛所以我針對這個兒少性剝削\n\n08:09.451 --> 08:33.628\n我又有提出這個修法版本不過那一天我的強調還是在前端就是說加強所有企圖與兒少、影音、影像來圖利的這個滑折這是在後端對不對那前端裡面你後端不管滑多重我一再強調是前端把關重要如何避免到這個兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容避免兒少的這個資訊去流出\n\n08:34.787 --> 08:49.279\n這其實是一個非常非常重要的一些事情那請部長再看一下這個這則報導歐盟曾經因為未做好兒童隱私保護抖音遭歐盟撞華是新台幣117億\n\n08:52.464 --> 09:11.538\n這是創造這個抖音招開華的歷史新高紀錄也是歐盟首度對這個社群去做這樣的一個開華你看那花款何其之重對不對人家多重視嘛然後在使用軟體上你看到我們對這個衛生聯的這個動畫啦玩的遊戲啦要怎麼分級保護上週一樣在這個委員會\n\n09:18.445 --> 09:45.988\n部長也在嘛然後問了相關單位然後我也用了很多的案例給部長跟相關人做參考真的實在是落差太大了然後組織單位好像也沒有辦法即刻去回應我怎樣可以做更好的一個積極的一個作為我記得好像是一個月時間一個月時間要提供出來給委員會做參考\n\n09:47.129 --> 10:12.161\n做這樣的一個處理。」那另外一個,去年在家福基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查,那其中兒少使用這個網路社群互相經驗中有超過兩成的兒少會主動點擊,然後進入這個標示未滿18歲檢疫的網頁,也有一成多會在網路上看到可怕的這個血腥的內容。不只如此,我想\n\n10:13.803 --> 10:39.729\n我上週的質詢跟現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制的最主要的目的是這個樣子還有在家暴的這部分報導裡面有一個最比較令人更憂心的地方就是我不曉得部長知道這個冰棒這個軟體嗎?這個APP嗎?我不清楚你不清楚齁?這個聯繫上有落差了\n\n10:41.841 --> 10:53.950\n國中、高中只使用過冰棒的都達三成。」我是指這樣的年紀裡面,真的亂笑,就是在引會部長的年紀有一些了。你們回去自己再好好處理。\n\n10:58.115 --> 11:23.522\n兵棒的APP啊這你知道嗎?也不知道嗎?對啊好這個APP在Google平台上顯示是適合所有人適合所有人然後很多家長也同樣會用這款APP來掌握小朋友的行蹤同時可以這個互交好友這有時候就會變成有些人去掌握未成年所在地的APP的那雖然這個\n\n11:25.816 --> 11:48.848\nApp已經在去年的3月下架,但是類似家偶的App能不斷的推出嗎?而且年齡齁,在年齡上都是括號,都是適合所有,適合所有人。現在我把這些資料給部長做參考,那這些裡面會不會由我講的這個狀況持續的再發生?這個你們有掌握嗎?\n\n11:57.029 --> 12:22.470\n目前當然是沒有,因為我們目前是沒有一個機制是可以去做主動的網站巡查目前是沒有對嘛,今天有蘇貨部也有來,NCC也有來,像這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理我一直強調前端的管制嘛,前端的處理那其實上個禮拜到現在也應該一個禮拜多了那個\n\n12:23.755 --> 12:53.335\nACC這邊先回報委員好先回報委員這個委員上個禮拜質詢提到的那個來自深淵烈日的黃金箱那個內容在youtube跟巴哈不同平台不同分級的這個我們有請那個iWIN去了解去看那個內容他的分級是不是符合現在的歷史框架那根據iWIN那個檢視結果YT的那個分級是符合的\n\n12:53.935 --> 13:22.489\n因為有一些不同﹐雖然是同一個片名可是它的剪輯手法或者是打碼版本不同那我們也瞭解﹐因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的所以它分級就不同那這個他們在YT看到的是符合那個框架的歷史框架已經有一個等於是三級那個阻攔性的防護那至於在巴哈呢巴哈的版本他把\n\n13:23.149 --> 13:38.087\n自動把它升級,變成嚴格年齡限制,所以變成同一部片,兩個平台那個分級管制不同,那其實是巴哈加碼的管制,所以管制得更嚴,巴哈的平台是,那目前了解是這樣子,那跟委員會報\n\n13:39.514 --> 13:57.308\n所以我提供這樣的一個訊息基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解嗎?對不對?好,那就是事後,就是說我們事先的一個監管的機制是存在的、是必然、是必要在做的嗎?\n\n13:58.129 --> 14:14.659\n也不需要說因為有發生什麼事情我來提醒你們你們才去做這樣的一個一個一個一個一個怎麼樣調查去瞭解嘛那個基本上是業者自律那些框架是業者要去遵循的對只要那個民眾向艾運檢舉\n\n14:15.580 --> 14:35.095\nIWIN就會去處理就會去檢視那個內容然後是不是符合分級如果不符合分級就會通知業者自律看是要下架或者是進一步處理如果沒有進一步處理可能如果涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理這是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動\n\n14:36.519 --> 15:04.125\n去審視這些內容才是正道啊。」那個巡邏齁是這個目前能力不夠是那目前還是靠業者自律啦靠業者自律如果說有檢舉事件那個iWIN就會積極介入處理你一定期盼要有人檢舉是要幫我處理不是這樣吧對目前iWIN是這樣子因為是能力有限那我現在提供這些網路的社群勒\n\n15:05.938 --> 15:33.695\n網路的社群如果是涉及APP的話不是不是你管?不是IWIN來管因為如果像遊戲的話是那個誰管?是那個速發部產業署在分級在處理但這些不是這些不是都遊戲啊?這個交友軟體或者是那個APP也是速發部產業署在處理是嗎?那請主角上來\n\n15:35.842 --> 15:58.637\n交流並不是你。」那個報告委員首先謝謝委員上次有提醒那個遊戲分級跟Google不一致的部分謝謝委員很好的提醒那其實我們後來事後有去了解因為主要是這樣子我們那個遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織然後國家會定在國內市售所有的遊戲分級那當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15跟\n\n16:02.979 --> 16:30.670\n限制級就是18禁那謝謝委員有觀察到主要是Google它在上架它有自己公司的審核制度那只是它那個審核的制度跟我們沒有對上但是它還是有一個叫18禁但是我們現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情因為它有個12我們有15就才那後來我們發現也委員很仔細我們查了一下我們分級有總共13款是限制級然後去看對應到Google裡面\n\n16:31.150 --> 16:59.796\n他剛好就是委員看到那兩款就是他標示不一樣那我們現在已經有跟Google講假設因為兒少大家都很關切假設我這邊是18禁你一定要有18禁所以我們已經有跟Google協調以後我們都會加強去做性格所以我這邊18你就一定要給我18也不用任何的審議啊審核公司內部的規定所以這邊也謝謝委員那事後我們的做法是我們在我們這邊有18禁的話我們也會在網路上去看有沒有\n\n17:00.536 --> 17:26.711\n跟Google不一樣的。我們如果有發現,主動去跟Google做聯繫。」這邊先跟委員說謝謝。謝謝了。所以是因為有提醒,所以現在你們18禁,他們就要比照你們18禁就對了,對不對?好。你們現在也會變成主動的去來審視這些?近期去找,找完之後再勾結。如果業者,如果我們有看到他也自己不去處理的話,我們後續會做一些適當的處置。OK。我現在講的這些勒?\n\n17:32.276 --> 17:53.171\n這邊交友的部分我們是負責遊戲嘛交友的部分現在院裡面有大概有在做協調交友的這個主管機關現在目前是主要是給內政部來去處理這件事情因為這個交友的部分那現在還在剩最後的一些處理這個我不方便回答謝謝那今天內政部有來嗎請證書來\n\n18:02.096 --> 18:26.070\n你有聽到啦齁?交友就是你內政部喔?是內政部有另外一個時務部OK是好阿這個議題有在內政部裡面討論過好阿多久會有個結果?因為我看那個期程應該是這一個月內大概就會有消息他會提到行政院層級來做討論\n\n18:30.096 --> 18:55.870\n提到行政院的成績在討論,所以這個月應該會有結果就對了。這個月快到了喔,那我就等你。是這個月還是下個月?下個月。就確定是由誰來組織就對了。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.242,"end":23.052,"text":"謝謝主席。邀請部長。請薛部長。委員好。部長好。不然你看一下這個資料齁,這是昨天北市某醫院這個被"},{"start":26.067,"end":39.541,"text":"被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一次的事情,部長有沒有掌握?目前的話是新北市衛生局在調查當中。"},{"start":42.663,"end":66.649,"text":"我先不討論那個內容到底是動機是什麼但是我現在給部長看這個立天來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件你看2011年新北亞東醫院2014台東馬捷醫院2017台北醫學大學富士醫院我沒有記錯他應該有兩次然後2021就最近而已兩年前嘉義聖馬爾町醫院"},{"start":69.984,"end":92.985,"text":"這些都發生在這個手術過程中偷拍患者照片並上傳網路的社群。這個確實就是把病患的照片流出然後來做破網或不當的使用我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題"},{"start":94.261,"end":118.735,"text":"可能都有散在的一些個案但是基本上應該不是說很常見我再給部長看一個資料這是一個網友的對話他說他某次跟朋友聚餐朋友的朋友是急診室的醫師聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看那看了實在很不舒服"},{"start":119.758,"end":140.319,"text":"那現在回想起來,這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似?我是不清楚說這個看到是什麼東西,不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手勢式的這個照片流出的情形,也就是這一次的那個案件的情形是不太一樣。"},{"start":142.013,"end":167.051,"text":"這件事實際上,因為以前很臭皮的啦。當說他開,有在治療某種病人就落嚴重啦。什麼開刀,他落老虧啦。就拿一張這種訊息出來。那他在,如果是在開拉網開的,那照下來的,有時候是基於那個學術上面的,因為醫院裡面都有那個meeting嘛。"},{"start":167.871,"end":184.603,"text":"他必須要把這個病人的狀況跟同事去相互做討論所以有時候這個是必要的但是你給其他不相關的人那個行為就不好了"},{"start":186.892,"end":202.589,"text":"不是,部長,這個這樣講怪怪的啦齁,你剛才的隱喻是,我都認真在聽啦齁,你講我那臭皮的嘛齁,臭皮這臭皮多了酒,你有講了嗎?這大家很困難的講啦,有一些意思就是"},{"start":203.65,"end":222.53,"text":"有那種自我標榜,有什麼...不是喔,因為我為什麼會這麼講,放到網路是會被知道,那醫師私底下在就像你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎麼樣,還是他發生到什麼個案,他就可以這樣拿去給...都不應該嘛,這個沒有規範嗎?"},{"start":226.721,"end":238.6,"text":"這個是本來就有洩漏病人隱私的這一個法條文字都有啦但是要去舉證會比較困難因為除非說那個看的人願意出來作證"},{"start":240.689,"end":264.434,"text":"醫療法第七十二條規定,醫療機構及人員因業務而窒息或持有病人病情或健康資訊不得無故洩漏,違反的話,依103條可以處5萬到20萬以下的罰款。」這明明有醫療法的規定在,怎麼會這種類似的案件還層出不窮?然後你看衛福部在2015年的時候就這一張"},{"start":270.919,"end":276.784,"text":"這張A4的一張紙總共就是把過去是門診醫療的隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範從門診擴大到醫療機構全面試用就是我拿的這張紙共715個字這我助理時間還蠻多的還有辦法把它算出總共715個字"},{"start":299.684,"end":309.614,"text":"這715個字裡面是到底有沒有落實去執行?還是推廣不足?還是內容規範不夠?才會使這些相關人員有恃無恐?才會使陳獨部長所講的還有這麼一個臭婆爺?"},{"start":314.274,"end":334.602,"text":"這個還是兩個啦,因為這一些的規範來講是在醫療機構裡面那你從事這些醫療業務的話,不管是不是醫師還是其他人員都必須要去遵守的那通常這一類的嫌違的違反比較容易被看得到"},{"start":335.822,"end":354.215,"text":"但是剛剛委員提到的有一些個案是在手術室手術室就是一個封閉的空間那病人如果就已經麻醉的話那事實上他也不知情所以就靠的只有這整個的團隊裡面的互相取發才有可能知道"},{"start":355.315,"end":379.956,"text":"另外一個情形就是剛剛委員提到的,拿那個相片給他的朋友看,這個就更是屬於私的,這部分的話其實真的是看的人願意檢舉你才看得到,因為它不是公開的。不是,部長我要從第二個角度去討論,這個會不會是一種陳柯一種好像"},{"start":380.518,"end":396.133,"text":"救急救我的疾病從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範是不是會讓我覺得這種隱私維護規範的強度不夠不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生"},{"start":397.743,"end":425.823,"text":"我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度因為終究這種案件不多啦是我剛剛提到的那一種有一些會把這一些照片拿去給朋友看這一種可能這種行為是比較多但是他的問題就是說如果要適用法規的時候就舉證了困難度的問題部長你講這個案件不多我怕你講這句話完的時候會跑出很多"},{"start":427.482,"end":446.444,"text":"應該不會我還是建議部長是不是對這個規範裡面有沒有討論的空間是不是加強那個規範的強度當然這個可以來討論以這一次的案件我們看調查結果是怎麼樣如果看起來的話"},{"start":449.088,"end":470.059,"text":"屬實在開大法裡面真的有這樣子的行為,那這個的部分的話就必須要重新檢討我們整個的規範,是不是應該要有更強的強度。」好,就請部長重視這件事情好不好。那我為什麼會提這個報告事件,也因為這個報告者提到,連兒少的身體也都有進行拍攝。"},{"start":471.683,"end":486.97,"text":"這陳獨部長講的如果是醫療教學用途那自然還是要獲得監護人的同意嘛對不對那如果是為了滿職私域甚至是要放到網路上公然閱覽等意圖啦那又不一樣的一個狀況發生嘛所以我針對這個兒少性剝削"},{"start":489.451,"end":513.628,"text":"我又有提出這個修法版本不過那一天我的強調還是在前端就是說加強所有企圖與兒少、影音、影像來圖利的這個滑折這是在後端對不對那前端裡面你後端不管滑多重我一再強調是前端把關重要如何避免到這個兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容避免兒少的這個資訊去流出"},{"start":514.787,"end":529.279,"text":"這其實是一個非常非常重要的一些事情那請部長再看一下這個這則報導歐盟曾經因為未做好兒童隱私保護抖音遭歐盟撞華是新台幣117億"},{"start":532.464,"end":551.538,"text":"這是創造這個抖音招開華的歷史新高紀錄也是歐盟首度對這個社群去做這樣的一個開華你看那花款何其之重對不對人家多重視嘛然後在使用軟體上你看到我們對這個衛生聯的這個動畫啦玩的遊戲啦要怎麼分級保護上週一樣在這個委員會"},{"start":558.445,"end":585.988,"text":"部長也在嘛然後問了相關單位然後我也用了很多的案例給部長跟相關人做參考真的實在是落差太大了然後組織單位好像也沒有辦法即刻去回應我怎樣可以做更好的一個積極的一個作為我記得好像是一個月時間一個月時間要提供出來給委員會做參考"},{"start":587.129,"end":612.161,"text":"做這樣的一個處理。」那另外一個,去年在家福基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查,那其中兒少使用這個網路社群互相經驗中有超過兩成的兒少會主動點擊,然後進入這個標示未滿18歲檢疫的網頁,也有一成多會在網路上看到可怕的這個血腥的內容。不只如此,我想"},{"start":613.803,"end":639.729,"text":"我上週的質詢跟現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制的最主要的目的是這個樣子還有在家暴的這部分報導裡面有一個最比較令人更憂心的地方就是我不曉得部長知道這個冰棒這個軟體嗎?這個APP嗎?我不清楚你不清楚齁?這個聯繫上有落差了"},{"start":641.841,"end":653.95,"text":"國中、高中只使用過冰棒的都達三成。」我是指這樣的年紀裡面,真的亂笑,就是在引會部長的年紀有一些了。你們回去自己再好好處理。"},{"start":658.115,"end":683.522,"text":"兵棒的APP啊這你知道嗎?也不知道嗎?對啊好這個APP在Google平台上顯示是適合所有人適合所有人然後很多家長也同樣會用這款APP來掌握小朋友的行蹤同時可以這個互交好友這有時候就會變成有些人去掌握未成年所在地的APP的那雖然這個"},{"start":685.816,"end":708.848,"text":"App已經在去年的3月下架,但是類似家偶的App能不斷的推出嗎?而且年齡齁,在年齡上都是括號,都是適合所有,適合所有人。現在我把這些資料給部長做參考,那這些裡面會不會由我講的這個狀況持續的再發生?這個你們有掌握嗎?"},{"start":717.029,"end":742.47,"text":"目前當然是沒有,因為我們目前是沒有一個機制是可以去做主動的網站巡查目前是沒有對嘛,今天有蘇貨部也有來,NCC也有來,像這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理我一直強調前端的管制嘛,前端的處理那其實上個禮拜到現在也應該一個禮拜多了那個"},{"start":743.755,"end":773.335,"text":"ACC這邊先回報委員好先回報委員這個委員上個禮拜質詢提到的那個來自深淵烈日的黃金箱那個內容在youtube跟巴哈不同平台不同分級的這個我們有請那個iWIN去了解去看那個內容他的分級是不是符合現在的歷史框架那根據iWIN那個檢視結果YT的那個分級是符合的"},{"start":773.935,"end":802.489,"text":"因為有一些不同﹐雖然是同一個片名可是它的剪輯手法或者是打碼版本不同那我們也瞭解﹐因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的所以它分級就不同那這個他們在YT看到的是符合那個框架的歷史框架已經有一個等於是三級那個阻攔性的防護那至於在巴哈呢巴哈的版本他把"},{"start":803.149,"end":818.087,"text":"自動把它升級,變成嚴格年齡限制,所以變成同一部片,兩個平台那個分級管制不同,那其實是巴哈加碼的管制,所以管制得更嚴,巴哈的平台是,那目前了解是這樣子,那跟委員會報"},{"start":819.514,"end":837.308,"text":"所以我提供這樣的一個訊息基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解嗎?對不對?好,那就是事後,就是說我們事先的一個監管的機制是存在的、是必然、是必要在做的嗎?"},{"start":838.129,"end":854.659,"text":"也不需要說因為有發生什麼事情我來提醒你們你們才去做這樣的一個一個一個一個一個怎麼樣調查去瞭解嘛那個基本上是業者自律那些框架是業者要去遵循的對只要那個民眾向艾運檢舉"},{"start":855.58,"end":875.095,"text":"IWIN就會去處理就會去檢視那個內容然後是不是符合分級如果不符合分級就會通知業者自律看是要下架或者是進一步處理如果沒有進一步處理可能如果涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理這是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動"},{"start":876.519,"end":904.125,"text":"去審視這些內容才是正道啊。」那個巡邏齁是這個目前能力不夠是那目前還是靠業者自律啦靠業者自律如果說有檢舉事件那個iWIN就會積極介入處理你一定期盼要有人檢舉是要幫我處理不是這樣吧對目前iWIN是這樣子因為是能力有限那我現在提供這些網路的社群勒"},{"start":905.938,"end":933.695,"text":"網路的社群如果是涉及APP的話不是不是你管?不是IWIN來管因為如果像遊戲的話是那個誰管?是那個速發部產業署在分級在處理但這些不是這些不是都遊戲啊?這個交友軟體或者是那個APP也是速發部產業署在處理是嗎?那請主角上來"},{"start":935.842,"end":958.637,"text":"交流並不是你。」那個報告委員首先謝謝委員上次有提醒那個遊戲分級跟Google不一致的部分謝謝委員很好的提醒那其實我們後來事後有去了解因為主要是這樣子我們那個遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織然後國家會定在國內市售所有的遊戲分級那當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15跟"},{"start":962.979,"end":990.67,"text":"限制級就是18禁那謝謝委員有觀察到主要是Google它在上架它有自己公司的審核制度那只是它那個審核的制度跟我們沒有對上但是它還是有一個叫18禁但是我們現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情因為它有個12我們有15就才那後來我們發現也委員很仔細我們查了一下我們分級有總共13款是限制級然後去看對應到Google裡面"},{"start":991.15,"end":1019.796,"text":"他剛好就是委員看到那兩款就是他標示不一樣那我們現在已經有跟Google講假設因為兒少大家都很關切假設我這邊是18禁你一定要有18禁所以我們已經有跟Google協調以後我們都會加強去做性格所以我這邊18你就一定要給我18也不用任何的審議啊審核公司內部的規定所以這邊也謝謝委員那事後我們的做法是我們在我們這邊有18禁的話我們也會在網路上去看有沒有"},{"start":1020.536,"end":1046.711,"text":"跟Google不一樣的。我們如果有發現,主動去跟Google做聯繫。」這邊先跟委員說謝謝。謝謝了。所以是因為有提醒,所以現在你們18禁,他們就要比照你們18禁就對了,對不對?好。你們現在也會變成主動的去來審視這些?近期去找,找完之後再勾結。如果業者,如果我們有看到他也自己不去處理的話,我們後續會做一些適當的處置。OK。我現在講的這些勒?"},{"start":1052.276,"end":1073.171,"text":"這邊交友的部分我們是負責遊戲嘛交友的部分現在院裡面有大概有在做協調交友的這個主管機關現在目前是主要是給內政部來去處理這件事情因為這個交友的部分那現在還在剩最後的一些處理這個我不方便回答謝謝那今天內政部有來嗎請證書來"},{"start":1082.096,"end":1106.07,"text":"你有聽到啦齁?交友就是你內政部喔?是內政部有另外一個時務部OK是好阿這個議題有在內政部裡面討論過好阿多久會有個結果?因為我看那個期程應該是這一個月內大概就會有消息他會提到行政院層級來做討論"},{"start":1110.096,"end":1135.87,"text":"提到行政院的成績在討論,所以這個月應該會有結果就對了。這個月快到了喔,那我就等你。是這個月還是下個月?下個月。就確定是由誰來組織就對了。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、"}]}}}}