{"id":151718,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1529651cdaf2c12340c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed08fc1c8a01bc256bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:09:35 - 09:20:10","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":635,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:20:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:09:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時9分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。之前我在質詢印度移工議題的時候有提到，這是一個很好的機會，可以採取政府對政府、國對國的直聘制度。當時你也覺得會這樣做，而且您自己也提到，因為是一個全新的來源國，我們如果從一開始就來談，會是比較容易的，否則像現在的其他來源國，因為直聘制度做得很差，其實是不到百分之一，所以大家都習慣透過仲介。林淑芬委員也提到，這是一個契機，導正過去錯誤政策，建立所謂的印度模式，採取國對國直聘，最重要是要弱化私人仲介的角色，而且避免巧立名目剝削移工，當時部長也表示認同。部長，您當時在委員會的回應跟態度，會讓委員或是勞工團體以為印度移工就要採取國對國的直聘。但是我們看一下4月3號公布的MOU第八條，老實說，我們看了有一點傻眼。第八條規定，除現有招募制度外，雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫，縮短流程、簡化文件、設立單一窗口及選工制度。部長，這個和現行政策沒有什麼不同啊！第一句的「現有招募制度」，意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當初在談招募的部分，因為我們現在其實也就是雙軌、多元，但是……"],["陳委員昭姿：這次也繼續雙軌嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這次基本上也會是雙軌，但是我跟委員報告，我們是希望以直聘方式作為主要的談判，其實我們現在推動直聘上，很多是因為來源國的配合度問題……"],["陳委員昭姿：但因為這是全新的……"],["許部長銘春：不是說我們不願意做，很多是來源國的問題，所以我們會把這個部分列為優先議題來談。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長我瞭解，但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗，我們知道雙軌就是私人仲介跟直聘，但直聘比率不到1%……"],["許部長銘春：不是，委員，雙軌是這樣子，我記得像越南還有印尼，移工來源國對這個部分是消極的，所以這個不是說我們做不好，而是來源國不願意配合，這次在印度方面，我們希望這是優先議題，就是優先來談國與國之間能夠直聘，也希望印度這邊能夠同意，不要像其他國家不太願意配合這件事。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個背後的協商我們是不瞭解，但是因為當時你給我們這一線希望，就是往國對國……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我的態度是很清楚的，我是希望國與國……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是現在這個MOU內容，你覺得是國對國的關係嗎？現在的MOU，我們看到的……"],["許部長銘春：所有各國的引進方式，在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式，但是我們在後續的工作層級會議……報告委員，這是MOU，MOU就是一個備忘錄、一個大方向、原則，但後續的工作層級會議，那才是重點！"],["陳委員昭姿：好，瞭解部長的意思。"],["許部長銘春：所以我要跟委員說明我們的態度，就是我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為時間有限……"],["許部長銘春：這個部分是列為優先談判的部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我瞭解。但是我們來看看真正所謂的國對國直聘，這是韓國的例子，大家都瞭解，韓國直聘制度還得過聯合國的公共服務首獎，他有幾個特點，第一，由政府設立行政法人，並在海外設立分處，辦理選工跟技能測驗等等的一些服務。請問，我們現在的直聘中心是行政機關嗎？不是嘛！它就是一個外包，外包給廠商嘛！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，它不是行政機關，而且直聘中心也沒有在海外設點，沒有在海外設立辦理選工跟訓練移工的作法。第二，引入韓國的移工，需要進行語言能力跟技能的測驗，作為人力公團選工的參考。但我國引進的移工事實上沒有做這些測驗，這是第二點。第三，移工入境後，由人力公團協助接機，移工參加就業培訓完成之後，公團會協助送移工到工作場所。請問我們的直聘中心有接機服務嗎？有送移工到他的工作場所嗎？也沒有嘛！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我作這樣說明，韓國其實引進移工時間比我們晚，所以他們一開始就沒有所謂的私人仲介問題，當時就是由國家辦理直聘，他們就是這樣的一個政策，所以當他去談的時候，當然來源國願意跟他合作……"],["陳委員昭姿：不過我們總是參考嘛！"],["許部長銘春：但是我們會參考，所以我跟委員報告，像我們現在針對家庭看護工的一站式服務，就是參考韓國的例子，包括一站式服務去接機……"],["陳委員昭姿：一站式服務現在只在家事移工部分，事業移工、產業移工現在沒有……"],["許部長銘春：因為我們是先從家庭看護工開始試辦。"],["陳委員昭姿：試辦很久了耶！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，沒有，一年多而已，去年1月才正式上路。"],["陳委員昭姿：反正部長是說要往這個方向做。還有韓國的人力公團要追蹤移工的工作狀況，現在全世界各國都在關心勞動權益，所以他們會去瞭解移工的適應狀況等等。基本上我不怪直聘中心，因為目前是外包廠商，他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。","部長，左邊這張圖是我取得的勞動部委託直聘中心的計畫需求書，你們對廠商的工作要求幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件，就是我畫紅線的地方，也就是勞動部一開始定位這個直聘中心其實只是一個收發中心，我知道上次你不太同意這樣的說法，但我們看這些文字，我們並沒有賦予直聘中心這些任務，包括選工、技能測驗、語言測驗，以及關心移工的適應狀況，這個標案一年就七千多萬，但是它的規模只有二十幾位員工，人數可能比仲介公司還要少，勞動部如果有心要做，這二十幾個人是沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務，二十幾人怎麼服務七十幾萬人，所以我們是不是應該成立一個行政法人的機構來處理直聘的問題？"],["許部長銘春：我們的直聘是讓雇主多一個選擇，因為臺灣現在的狀況，雇主有他個人的考量……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，就要再積極一點，無論是……"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，直聘當然要做，我一定會把它做好，讓它易於使用，所以我們不也斷在精進，因為……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，但是這個方向我們現在還看不到，期許將來是往這個方向走。"],["許部長銘春：是，是，我們會持續來精進。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我再跟你談一下有關護理師的勞動問題。我在3月20日也曾質詢你有關護理師加班費的問題，不曉得部長還有沒有印象，但是部長當時說有加班事實，就要給加班費……"],["許部長銘春：要給加班費啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：而且不滿1小時部分，要按照比例發給。我在上面有寫出我們詢答的內容，部長表示勞動部每年都會針對過往違規紀錄不良的事業機構，請勞動單位進行專案檢查。部長，我們當時的對話是這樣，請你確認一下。但是我要告訴你的是，上個月19日，二十幾位護理師到臺南市政府抗議，因為成大醫院長期人力不足，這些護理師被迫加班，基於職責不好拒絕，但院方卻未依規定給他們加班費。有二十五名護理師反映他們超時工作，也嘗試自救，自己擬定加班意願書，結果就被上級主管把人調走，也就是說，有問題沒有辦法解決，就把提出問題的人解決掉了！護理師真的是身心受創，甚至有懷孕後期的護理師有9天的加班紀錄。部長，不好意思，我再讓你看一下這些處分的罰責。臺南市勞工局出來表示有發現該院加班以0.5小時計算，會進行裁處。問題是我們在勞動部違反勞動法令事業單位的查詢系統上，根本查不到這個裁處資料，最新的一筆仍停留在去年12月，部長，臺南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎？可以公然說謊嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們這個是兩個月公布一次，他們上傳……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是護理師申訴了，再看一下這個罰責，去年成大醫院加班費發放不足，被罰1萬；延長工時沒有給工資，被罰5萬；沒記載勞工出勤情形至分鐘為止，被罰2萬；看到這樣的罰款金額，部長，成大醫院並不是第一次違反勞基法，它是累犯，2017、2019年都有，國立大學附設醫院這樣子可以從輕發落嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，累犯的話會加重。"],["陳委員昭姿：他們應該是其他醫院的典範啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們有一個裁量基準啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：2019、2023都再犯，而且只罰款……"],["許部長銘春：我們有裁量基準，如果再犯，是會加重。"],["陳委員昭姿：結果就是罰2萬啊！他是累犯，罰2萬最低的罰責，我覺得這樣不合理，部長，你覺得合理嗎？"],["許部長銘春：呃，當然如果是累犯的話……"],["陳委員昭姿：他是累犯啊！我這邊的紀錄都有啊！"],["許部長銘春：累犯的話就是要加重，這個部分……"],["陳委員昭姿：我個人最後的結論是，勞動部跟地方主管機關應該站在勞工權益，多多設身處地替他們著想，護理師已經很珍貴了！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們一定站在勞工立場，針對這個個案部分，沒關係，我們會跟地方勞政機關再進行瞭解，也請他們要針對這些有違法的事業單位積極查處，該加重就要加重，我們一定要維護勞工的權益。"],["陳委員昭姿：麻煩勞動部再督促臺南市勞工局相關的懲處紀錄，還有處罰的情形，讓這些護理師不要再繼續這樣過勞，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳昭姿委員發言。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra 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\"有\", \"start\": 502.375, \"end\": 502.735, \"score\": 0.803}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 502.735, \"end\": 502.755, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"辦\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 502.755, \"end\": 502.815, \"score\": 0.667}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 502.815, \"end\": 502.855, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 502.855, \"end\": 502.875, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 502.875, \"end\": 502.975, \"score\": 0.698}, {\"word\": \"把\", \"start\": 502.975, \"end\": 502.995, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 502.995, \"end\": 503.016, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"出\", \"start\": 503.016, \"end\": 503.036, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"解\", \"start\": 503.036, \"end\": 503.056, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"掉\", \"start\": 503.056, \"end\": 503.176, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 503.176, \"end\": 503.196, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 508.539, \"end\": 536.966, \"text\": \"那這個當護理師真的會生氣瘦創啊那甚至有懷孕後期的這個護理師他有9天的加班紀錄部長不好意思我讓你看一下這些處分的罰則台南市勞工局出來說他發現那個該院這個加班是以0.5小時計算他會進行裁處但是我們在勞動部的違反勞動法令事業單位的這個查詢系統根本看不到這個查處最輕的一筆留名在去年12月部長台南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 508.539, \"end\": 509.179, \"score\": 0.681}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"護\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 509.179, \"end\": 509.459, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"師\"}, {\"word\": \"真\", \"start\": 509.459, \"end\": 509.559, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 509.559, \"end\": 509.839, \"score\": 0.72}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"生\", \"start\": 509.839, \"end\": 510.199, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"氣\"}, {\"word\": \"瘦\", \"start\": 510.199, \"end\": 510.6, \"score\": 0.578}, {\"word\": \"創\"}, {\"word\": \"啊\", \"start\": 510.6, \"end\": 511.12, \"score\": 0.802}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 511.12, \"end\": 511.24, \"score\": 0.642}, {\"word\": \"甚\", 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606.508, \"end\": 606.588, \"score\": 0.759}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 606.588, \"end\": 606.608, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"場\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 609.389, \"end\": 609.489, \"score\": 0.793}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 609.489, \"end\": 609.509, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:09,055\n委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。\n\n2\n00:00:15,274 --> 00:00:21,378\n陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%\n\n3\n00:00:45,114 --> 00:01:06,161\n所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同\n\n4\n00:01:07,461 --> 00:01:34,627\n那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職併但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外雙方同意推動職併計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策\n\n5\n00:01:35,447 --> 00:01:41,667\n沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?\n\n6\n00:01:44,687 --> 00:02:11,452\n報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌啦雙軌多元啦那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎?這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在職聘方面以這個為主要的談判啦主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動職聘上很多是因為來源國\n\n7\n00:02:12,972 --> 00:02:41,062\n的配合度的問題不是說我們不願意做很多是來源果他的問題所以我們會把這個列為優先議題來談不懂我了解但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源果那邊對這個部分是消極的\n\n8\n00:02:42,362 --> 00:03:02,923\n所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意\n\n9\n00:03:03,183 --> 00:03:04,243\n但是現在的MOU的內容,你覺得是國對國的關係嗎?現在的MOU我們看到的...\n\n10\n00:03:23,447 --> 00:03:44,877\n各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說\n\n11\n00:03:46,057 --> 00:04:09,269\n我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟這個晉能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎?\n\n12\n00:04:11,004 --> 00:04:38,041\n不是嘛。它是一個外包嘛。外包給廠商嘛。對,它不是。執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛。沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛。那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工、移工事實上沒有做這些\n\n13\n00:04:40,404 --> 00:04:55,143\n這是第二個。第三個,移工入境後,他是由人力工團去接機。移工培訓完成之後,他們就把他送到工作場所。我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎?他有送移工到他的工作場所嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:58,366 --> 00:05:15,182\n因為韓國他其實他已經以為是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國\n\n15\n00:05:18,845 --> 00:05:33,737\n但是我們會參考,所以我跟委員報告,像我們現在針對家庭看護公那個一站式服務喔,就是參考韓國的,我們包括我們的一站式服務去接機﹚家是移工啦,那個事業移工是這個產業移工現在沒有\n\n16\n00:05:35,419 --> 00:06:01,682\n因為我們事先事辦,從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了。沒有沒有沒有,一年多而已。我們去年在,我們去年1月才正式上路。可是部長是說要往這個方向做,還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況。這個大家現在全世界各國在關心勞動權益,他會去了解他的適應狀況等等。所以我們,我基本上我不怪植病中心,因為目前是外包廠商嘛。\n\n17\n00:06:02,082 --> 00:06:23,133\n他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。\n\n18\n00:06:23,473 --> 00:06:51,128\n我知道上次您不太同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予職聘中心這些任務包括這個選工、技能測驗、語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人\n\n19\n00:06:52,548 --> 00:07:19,399\n所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在臺灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟各位報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進部長因為\n\n20\n00:07:21,420 --> 00:07:37,900\n那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走我們會持續來進進那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象\n\n21\n00:07:38,581 --> 00:08:01,962\n但是部長您說有加班適時就要給加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號\n\n22\n00:08:03,743 --> 00:08:23,196\n二十幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班、禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻未依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣﹖把人調走了也就是說那個有問題沒辦法解決他就把提出問題解決掉了\n\n23\n00:08:28,539 --> 00:08:56,966\n那這個當護理師真的會生氣瘦創啊那甚至有懷孕後期的這個護理師他有9天的加班紀錄部長不好意思我讓你看一下這些處分的罰則台南市勞工局出來說他發現那個該院這個加班是以0.5小時計算他會進行裁處但是我們在勞動部的違反勞動法令事業單位的這個查詢系統根本看不到這個查處最輕的一筆留名在去年12月部長台南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎\n\n24\n00:08:58,127 --> 00:08:58,451\n可以公然說謊嗎?\n\n25\n00:09:00,826 --> 00:09:26,522\n我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費、發發服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019\n\n26\n00:09:28,883 --> 00:09:39,571\n國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做比較帥範的做點範啊。我們在採樣基準啊。我們有採樣基準。兩萬以上、一百萬以下。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是壘範罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?\n\n27\n00:09:53,661 --> 00:10:06,608\n當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我想我最後的結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去思考。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。\n\n28\n00:10:09,389 --> 00:10:09,509\n好,謝謝部長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t9055\t委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。\n15274\t21378\t陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%\n45114\t66161\t所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同\n67461\t94627\t那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職併但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外雙方同意推動職併計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策\n95447\t101667\t沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?\n104687\t131452\t報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌啦雙軌多元啦那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎?這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在職聘方面以這個為主要的談判啦主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動職聘上很多是因為來源國\n132972\t161062\t的配合度的問題不是說我們不願意做很多是來源果他的問題所以我們會把這個列為優先議題來談不懂我了解但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源果那邊對這個部分是消極的\n162362\t182923\t所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意\n183183\t184243\t但是現在的MOU的內容,你覺得是國對國的關係嗎?現在的MOU我們看到的...\n203447\t224877\t各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說\n226057\t249269\t我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟這個晉能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎?\n251004\t278041\t不是嘛。它是一個外包嘛。外包給廠商嘛。對,它不是。執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛。沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛。那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工、移工事實上沒有做這些\n280404\t295143\t這是第二個。第三個,移工入境後,他是由人力工團去接機。移工培訓完成之後,他們就把他送到工作場所。我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎?他有送移工到他的工作場所嗎?\n298366\t315182\t因為韓國他其實他已經以為是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國\n318845\t333737\t但是我們會參考,所以我跟委員報告,像我們現在針對家庭看護公那個一站式服務喔,就是參考韓國的,我們包括我們的一站式服務去接機﹚家是移工啦,那個事業移工是這個產業移工現在沒有\n335419\t361682\t因為我們事先事辦,從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了。沒有沒有沒有,一年多而已。我們去年在,我們去年1月才正式上路。可是部長是說要往這個方向做,還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況。這個大家現在全世界各國在關心勞動權益,他會去了解他的適應狀況等等。所以我們,我基本上我不怪植病中心,因為目前是外包廠商嘛。\n362082\t383133\t他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。\n383473\t411128\t我知道上次您不太同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予職聘中心這些任務包括這個選工、技能測驗、語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人\n412548\t439399\t所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在臺灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟各位報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進部長因為\n441420\t457900\t那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走我們會持續來進進那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象\n458581\t481962\t但是部長您說有加班適時就要給加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號\n483743\t503196\t二十幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班、禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻未依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣﹖把人調走了也就是說那個有問題沒辦法解決他就把提出問題解決掉了\n508539\t536966\t那這個當護理師真的會生氣瘦創啊那甚至有懷孕後期的這個護理師他有9天的加班紀錄部長不好意思我讓你看一下這些處分的罰則台南市勞工局出來說他發現那個該院這個加班是以0.5小時計算他會進行裁處但是我們在勞動部的違反勞動法令事業單位的這個查詢系統根本看不到這個查處最輕的一筆留名在去年12月部長台南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎\n538127\t538451\t可以公然說謊嗎?\n540826\t566522\t我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費、發發服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019\n568883\t579571\t國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做比較帥範的做點範啊。我們在採樣基準啊。我們有採樣基準。兩萬以上、一百萬以下。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是壘範罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?\n593661\t606608\t當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我想我最後的結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去思考。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。\n609389\t609509\t好,謝謝部長\n","txt":"委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。\n陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%\n所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同\n那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職併但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外雙方同意推動職併計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策\n沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?\n報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌啦雙軌多元啦那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎?這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在職聘方面以這個為主要的談判啦主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動職聘上很多是因為來源國\n的配合度的問題不是說我們不願意做很多是來源果他的問題所以我們會把這個列為優先議題來談不懂我了解但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源果那邊對這個部分是消極的\n所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意\n但是現在的MOU的內容,你覺得是國對國的關係嗎?現在的MOU我們看到的...\n各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說\n我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟這個晉能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎?\n不是嘛。它是一個外包嘛。外包給廠商嘛。對,它不是。執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛。沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛。那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工、移工事實上沒有做這些\n這是第二個。第三個,移工入境後,他是由人力工團去接機。移工培訓完成之後,他們就把他送到工作場所。我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎?他有送移工到他的工作場所嗎?\n因為韓國他其實他已經以為是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國\n但是我們會參考,所以我跟委員報告,像我們現在針對家庭看護公那個一站式服務喔,就是參考韓國的,我們包括我們的一站式服務去接機﹚家是移工啦,那個事業移工是這個產業移工現在沒有\n因為我們事先事辦,從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了。沒有沒有沒有,一年多而已。我們去年在,我們去年1月才正式上路。可是部長是說要往這個方向做,還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況。這個大家現在全世界各國在關心勞動權益,他會去了解他的適應狀況等等。所以我們,我基本上我不怪植病中心,因為目前是外包廠商嘛。\n他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。\n我知道上次您不太同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予職聘中心這些任務包括這個選工、技能測驗、語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人\n所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在臺灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟各位報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進部長因為\n那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走我們會持續來進進那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象\n但是部長您說有加班適時就要給加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號\n二十幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班、禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻未依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣﹖把人調走了也就是說那個有問題沒辦法解決他就把提出問題解決掉了\n那這個當護理師真的會生氣瘦創啊那甚至有懷孕後期的這個護理師他有9天的加班紀錄部長不好意思我讓你看一下這些處分的罰則台南市勞工局出來說他發現那個該院這個加班是以0.5小時計算他會進行裁處但是我們在勞動部的違反勞動法令事業單位的這個查詢系統根本看不到這個查處最輕的一筆留名在去年12月部長台南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎\n可以公然說謊嗎?\n我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費、發發服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019\n國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做比較帥範的做點範啊。我們在採樣基準啊。我們有採樣基準。兩萬以上、一百萬以下。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是壘範罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?\n當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我想我最後的結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去思考。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。\n好,謝謝部長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:09.055\n委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。\n\n00:15.274 --> 00:21.378\n陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%\n\n00:45.114 --> 01:06.161\n所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同\n\n01:07.461 --> 01:34.627\n那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職併但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外雙方同意推動職併計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策\n\n01:35.447 --> 01:41.667\n沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?\n\n01:44.687 --> 02:11.452\n報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌啦雙軌多元啦那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎?這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在職聘方面以這個為主要的談判啦主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動職聘上很多是因為來源國\n\n02:12.972 --> 02:41.062\n的配合度的問題不是說我們不願意做很多是來源果他的問題所以我們會把這個列為優先議題來談不懂我了解但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源果那邊對這個部分是消極的\n\n02:42.362 --> 03:02.923\n所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意\n\n03:03.183 --> 03:04.243\n但是現在的MOU的內容,你覺得是國對國的關係嗎?現在的MOU我們看到的...\n\n03:23.447 --> 03:44.877\n各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說\n\n03:46.057 --> 04:09.269\n我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟這個晉能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎?\n\n04:11.004 --> 04:38.041\n不是嘛。它是一個外包嘛。外包給廠商嘛。對,它不是。執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛。沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛。那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工、移工事實上沒有做這些\n\n04:40.404 --> 04:55.143\n這是第二個。第三個,移工入境後,他是由人力工團去接機。移工培訓完成之後,他們就把他送到工作場所。我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎?他有送移工到他的工作場所嗎?\n\n04:58.366 --> 05:15.182\n因為韓國他其實他已經以為是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國\n\n05:18.845 --> 05:33.737\n但是我們會參考,所以我跟委員報告,像我們現在針對家庭看護公那個一站式服務喔,就是參考韓國的,我們包括我們的一站式服務去接機﹚家是移工啦,那個事業移工是這個產業移工現在沒有\n\n05:35.419 --> 06:01.682\n因為我們事先事辦,從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了。沒有沒有沒有,一年多而已。我們去年在,我們去年1月才正式上路。可是部長是說要往這個方向做,還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況。這個大家現在全世界各國在關心勞動權益,他會去了解他的適應狀況等等。所以我們,我基本上我不怪植病中心,因為目前是外包廠商嘛。\n\n06:02.082 --> 06:23.133\n他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。\n\n06:23.473 --> 06:51.128\n我知道上次您不太同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予職聘中心這些任務包括這個選工、技能測驗、語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人\n\n06:52.548 --> 07:19.399\n所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在臺灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟各位報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進部長因為\n\n07:21.420 --> 07:37.900\n那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走我們會持續來進進那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象\n\n07:38.581 --> 08:01.962\n但是部長您說有加班適時就要給加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號\n\n08:03.743 --> 08:23.196\n二十幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班、禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻未依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣﹖把人調走了也就是說那個有問題沒辦法解決他就把提出問題解決掉了\n\n08:28.539 --> 08:56.966\n那這個當護理師真的會生氣瘦創啊那甚至有懷孕後期的這個護理師他有9天的加班紀錄部長不好意思我讓你看一下這些處分的罰則台南市勞工局出來說他發現那個該院這個加班是以0.5小時計算他會進行裁處但是我們在勞動部的違反勞動法令事業單位的這個查詢系統根本看不到這個查處最輕的一筆留名在去年12月部長台南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎\n\n08:58.127 --> 08:58.451\n可以公然說謊嗎?\n\n09:00.826 --> 09:26.522\n我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費、發發服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019\n\n09:28.883 --> 09:39.571\n國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做比較帥範的做點範啊。我們在採樣基準啊。我們有採樣基準。兩萬以上、一百萬以下。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是壘範罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?\n\n09:53.661 --> 10:06.608\n當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我想我最後的結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去思考。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。\n\n10:09.389 --> 10:09.509\n好,謝謝部長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":9.055,"text":"委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。"},{"start":15.274,"end":21.378,"text":"陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%"},{"start":45.114,"end":66.161,"text":"所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同"},{"start":67.461,"end":94.627,"text":"那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職併但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外雙方同意推動職併計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策"},{"start":95.447,"end":101.667,"text":"沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?"},{"start":104.687,"end":131.452,"text":"報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌啦雙軌多元啦那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎?這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在職聘方面以這個為主要的談判啦主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動職聘上很多是因為來源國"},{"start":132.972,"end":161.062,"text":"的配合度的問題不是說我們不願意做很多是來源果他的問題所以我們會把這個列為優先議題來談不懂我了解但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源果那邊對這個部分是消極的"},{"start":162.362,"end":182.923,"text":"所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意"},{"start":183.183,"end":184.243,"text":"但是現在的MOU的內容,你覺得是國對國的關係嗎?現在的MOU我們看到的..."},{"start":203.447,"end":224.877,"text":"各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說"},{"start":226.057,"end":249.269,"text":"我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟這個晉能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎?"},{"start":251.004,"end":278.041,"text":"不是嘛。它是一個外包嘛。外包給廠商嘛。對,它不是。執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛。沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛。那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工、移工事實上沒有做這些"},{"start":280.404,"end":295.143,"text":"這是第二個。第三個,移工入境後,他是由人力工團去接機。移工培訓完成之後,他們就把他送到工作場所。我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎?他有送移工到他的工作場所嗎?"},{"start":298.366,"end":315.182,"text":"因為韓國他其實他已經以為是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國"},{"start":318.845,"end":333.737,"text":"但是我們會參考,所以我跟委員報告,像我們現在針對家庭看護公那個一站式服務喔,就是參考韓國的,我們包括我們的一站式服務去接機﹚家是移工啦,那個事業移工是這個產業移工現在沒有"},{"start":335.419,"end":361.682,"text":"因為我們事先事辦,從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了。沒有沒有沒有,一年多而已。我們去年在,我們去年1月才正式上路。可是部長是說要往這個方向做,還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況。這個大家現在全世界各國在關心勞動權益,他會去了解他的適應狀況等等。所以我們,我基本上我不怪植病中心,因為目前是外包廠商嘛。"},{"start":362.082,"end":383.133,"text":"他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。"},{"start":383.473,"end":411.128,"text":"我知道上次您不太同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予職聘中心這些任務包括這個選工、技能測驗、語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人"},{"start":412.548,"end":439.399,"text":"所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在臺灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟各位報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進部長因為"},{"start":441.42,"end":457.9,"text":"那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走我們會持續來進進那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象"},{"start":458.581,"end":481.962,"text":"但是部長您說有加班適時就要給加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號"},{"start":483.743,"end":503.196,"text":"二十幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班、禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻未依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣﹖把人調走了也就是說那個有問題沒辦法解決他就把提出問題解決掉了"},{"start":508.539,"end":536.966,"text":"那這個當護理師真的會生氣瘦創啊那甚至有懷孕後期的這個護理師他有9天的加班紀錄部長不好意思我讓你看一下這些處分的罰則台南市勞工局出來說他發現那個該院這個加班是以0.5小時計算他會進行裁處但是我們在勞動部的違反勞動法令事業單位的這個查詢系統根本看不到這個查處最輕的一筆留名在去年12月部長台南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎"},{"start":538.127,"end":538.451,"text":"可以公然說謊嗎?"},{"start":540.826,"end":566.522,"text":"我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費、發發服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019"},{"start":568.883,"end":579.571,"text":"國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做比較帥範的做點範啊。我們在採樣基準啊。我們有採樣基準。兩萬以上、一百萬以下。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是壘範罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":593.661,"end":606.608,"text":"當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我想我最後的結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去思考。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。"},{"start":609.389,"end":609.509,"text":"好,謝謝部長"}]}}}}