{"id":151720,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15ec2b0f0a300ee576c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0e00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:20:16 - 09:30:59","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":643,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:30:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:20:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時20分）主席好，有請勞動部部長跟勞動發展署蔡署長。"],["主席：許部長、蔡署長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。根據媒體消息，下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議，討論相關行業、名額及方式，因為前幾天重症雇主團體有來向本席陳情，表示我們的對象，也就是聘僱人力穩定來源，他們有一點擔心。請問社福類的移工，特別是家庭看護工，會不會列入你們這次的項目當中？"],["許部長銘春：我們開放的業別會找相關部會一起討論，因為這些業別各有其目的事業主管機關，像這些看護人員就是屬於衛福部，他會不會納入，到時候我們就是會找他們來討論，包括第二次的諮詢會，我們有邀請相關部會針對開放的業別、開放的人數及引進的方式，大家都會來討論。"],["林委員月琴：希望就是考量他們的需求，因為他們事實上是專門去照顧一些重症的家庭，可能要去考量這部分。","部長知道有這樣的公司嗎？本來按照身權法，事實上是希望保障身權者的就業權益，在第三十八條跟第四十三條就有規定身障者的聘僱、僱用跟行政怠金，這項規定本意是希望促進身障者就業，而且同時推動事業單位能夠去改善其工作環境來聘僱身障者，這種代聘代管的模式，不知道部長有看到這樣的一個公司行號，它變成是管理公司，也就是這樣的公司幫事業單位去聘僱身障者，然後租場地讓這些身障者工作，可是相對的會變成什麼呢？會變成像主管人只要看不順眼就把人趕走了；另外一個，有時候這些人事實上不是在事業單位工作，反而規避掉很多的問題。比如說，事業單位要改善整個環境變成不需要改善，身障者單獨在這裡工作只領最低的基本薪資，所有的福利都沒有，所以這個公司像是仲介，身障者幫它做事，出錢的卻是另外一家公司、是事業單位，而有沒有詐領身障者就業基金，不確定。","再來，身障者會再次跟社會隔絕，本來是要去融合，今天教育單位的普特融合都達到96%，可是你竟然把身障者區隔掉，我不知道勞動部有沒有掌握這樣的狀況，因為它大剌剌的在就業市場當中丟出來，讓大家來使用這樣的管理公司，它是代管，所有人都在這邊上班、幫事業單位工作，可是實際上有時候連無障礙廁所都沒有，我不曉得部長知不知道這種狀況？"],["許部長銘春：如果像您剛剛所提的情形，這樣是違反身權法的規範，完全不符合所要求的這些規定，這部分具體的情形……"],["林委員月琴：所以你怎麼去認定有沒有違法？甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰的行政處分？"],["許部長銘春：因為這個是個案的情形，我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來瞭解，我們進一步來瞭解，看應該做怎麼樣的處理。"],["林委員月琴：好，是不是一個禮拜後讓我瞭解這整個狀況？"],["許部長銘春：委員，您那邊有沒有資訊提供給我們？"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["許部長銘春：我會請同仁去跟委員辦公室來瞭解，我們來進行後續處理。"],["林委員月琴：所以為什麼就業服務法要大修，連這樣的狀況都可以規避掉身權法跟就業服務的一些要件。"],["許部長銘春：基本上法律是沒有問題，而是有心者的守法問題，我覺得這不可取啦！"],["林委員月琴：是。就業服務法也是30年了，本來你們自己也特別去提到，因為就業服務法30年了，在前年勞動部發行的台灣勞工季刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的改革，可是我們從過去的就服法看到什麼？外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務，本來就服法是要促進國人的就業，可是從第三十四條到第八十三條這麼高的比重，幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多，比重占到三分之二，到底我們的就服法是要促進國人就業，尤其我很關心青年就業，幾乎都沒有觸及到，反而是大力去促成外國人，這不應該拉出來做專法去討論嗎？怎麼會是合併在這邊？而且占了三分之二強的比重，這個就服法到底是去滿足外國人聘僱，還是事實上要促進國人就業？連相關的辦法，基本上也是三分之二，反而對於國內勞工的就業服務談得比較少。","連你今天的報告也是這樣，今天的報告從比重上看起來也非常偏頗，幾乎大概僅兩頁談到國內的就業未來怎麼提振，可是有3頁都在敘明外國的聘僱要怎麼去做，我覺得在比重失衡的狀況下，關於國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業，當然我知道部長很努力在中高齡的就業上的確有些起色，可是青年就業呢？事實上青年是未來國家的本，但這部分好像做得很少。以這樣子來看，我也想問的是，部長知不知道地方政府在人的聘僱率上，會不會因為你的比重有落差，而在人的聘用也是有落差的？就人員的配置上有沒有影響？"],["許部長銘春：應該是不會，配置上不會。"],["林委員月琴：你現在講不會，可能也不是很有把握，是不是可以也讓我知道一下，各地方政府的聘僱到底有沒有落差？"],["許部長銘春：我們可以提供資料給委員，委員有這樣的質疑，我是回答你不會啦，當然你有質疑，我們必須把數據提供給委員瞭解。"],["林委員月琴：是不是會提供出來？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員月琴：否則，如果你今天不是讓地方政府促進國人的就業，反而是大量著重在外國的聘僱，我覺得不太適宜。就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單修一些規定，我剛剛已經提過在這樣的修正裡面，幾乎都是以外國人聘僱為主，我不知道部長你覺得合理嗎？即整個比重上都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主，在這幾次的修正都是如此。"],["許部長銘春：在外國人聘僱上，可能有一些認為是時空背景或是需要進行一些滾動性修正。"],["林委員月琴：可是大概都是以外國人聘僱為主，怎麼不是我們自己國內就業的提振呢？"],["許部長銘春：國內就業的提振，我們很多是用計畫、方案去推動，因為法是個大原則，你要更落實……"],["林委員月琴：我就碰到過，政府常跟我講要依法行事，如果法裡面沒有訂的話，通常不會依法行事。"],["許部長銘春：不會，它都會有一些授權……"],["林委員月琴：反而會造成國內的就業呈現比較不穩定狀態，你們大量思考的部分，事實上是外國聘僱的管理模式。"],["許部長銘春：其實我們很多法會授權一些子法訂定計畫或相關的方案去推動，在執行面，我們都是訂定計畫去推動，因為用計畫比較容易做滾動性的修正。"],["林委員月琴：可是部長，我們看……"],["許部長銘春：基本上都是在法的大架構下去推動，都是依法行政。"],["林委員月琴：你去看原來就業服務法規定的就業服務本業，做好了嗎？我認為沒有，為什麼？因為民間就業服務機構等同於移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位，對國人求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行，像111、104等這樣的方式，就業服務難道只有移工聘僱或是網路上的人力銀行？當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構，所提供的職業訓練、就業諮詢跟職業心理測驗和受委任招募的這些資源，使用率都非常非常地低，有沒有去檢討這些單位？甚至連職業推薦這項業務效果都不如預期，私立的更不用講了，所以在這樣的狀況底下，我不知道你們還有辦法、有能力去做嗎？像我剛剛講的青年就業促進、避免職業傷害，跟協助障礙者、中高齡及高齡者就業的職業輔具使用。"],["許部長銘春：這個都是我們努力在推動的。"],["林委員月琴：目前我真的很少看到針對青年這一塊，這些越來越加重的需求，我覺得勞動部應該要去因應啦！"],["許部長銘春：這個部分，我跟委員報告，我們這幾年推動的，縱使在疫情期間，青年的失業率都降到歷來最低，我們真的在推動上有一些成果出來。"],["林委員月琴：是。部長，因為時間的關係，再請你提供相關的資料，連今天報告我都看不出來，因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了。","最後，大概就是希望你在這一塊是不是可以進行處理，像反就業歧視跟保護求職安全機制失能的狀態，所以該修法了，這個已經30年的法是不是可以大修？是不是要把那部分脫鉤，也就是外國聘僱去設立專法，這一部就業服務法還是以國人的聘僱為主，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:59,982\n也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早\n\n4\n00:01:00,998 --> 00:01:01,839\n我們有邀請我們相關的部會．\n\n5\n00:01:28,059 --> 00:01:37,942\n希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症的一些家庭可能要去考量\n\n6\n00:01:38,703 --> 00:02:07,868\n那接下來想部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裏邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供\n\n7\n00:02:08,348 --> 00:02:08,568\n會變成像主管\n\n8\n00:02:36,883 --> 00:02:37,604\n司法局局長\n\n9\n00:03:33,163 --> 00:03:34,283\n方偉,如果像您剛剛這樣的\n\n10\n00:03:49,049 --> 00:03:56,676\n您怎麼去認定有沒有違法,甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰?因為這個個案的情形,我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解,進一步來了解,然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理?\n\n11\n00:04:11,755 --> 00:04:14,796\n就業服務法也是三十年了本來你自己的\n\n12\n00:04:41,602 --> 00:04:56,511\n也有特別去提到說因為就業服務法三十年在前年的我們的勞動部發行的臺灣勞工紀刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的一個改革可是\n\n13\n00:04:58,759 --> 00:05:17,354\n這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多\n\n14\n00:05:17,714 --> 00:05:43,041\n比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業\n\n15\n00:05:44,401 --> 00:06:04,297\n那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談的比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振\n\n16\n00:06:04,717 --> 00:06:30,210\n可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做我覺得這比重失衡的狀況裡邊我們國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業當然我知道部長很努力中高齡的就業的確有些起色可是青年就業呢青年事實上是未來我們國家的本可是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道\n\n17\n00:06:31,676 --> 00:06:42,648\n在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?\n\n18\n00:06:44,492 --> 00:06:49,294\n您有這樣的質疑,我是跟你回答說不會啦,但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據提供給我們來瞭解。\n\n19\n00:07:08,303 --> 00:07:35,531\n如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人聘僱我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是\n\n20\n00:07:36,523 --> 00:07:59,315\n整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能因為外國人聘僱他可能有一些認為時空背景或是需要一些做一些滾動性的修正對可是大概都是以外國人怎麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢\n\n21\n00:08:00,938 --> 00:08:21,148\n國內就業提振我們是很多的用計畫方案去推動政府常常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡邊沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的事實上\n\n22\n00:08:21,828 --> 00:08:44,515\n思考的事實上是外國評估的管理的模式。報告委員,其實我們很多法,它會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動。執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動,因為用計劃的話,比較容易去滾動性的修正。對,可是部長,我們看齁,像現在……其他都是在法的大架構下去推動,都是依法行政。\n\n23\n00:08:44,735 --> 00:09:00,745\n像去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有。為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國安求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104\n\n24\n00:09:02,846 --> 00:09:29,622\n這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期\n\n25\n00:09:30,562 --> 00:09:56,094\n所以失利的更不用講了所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業我們在使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該要去因應\n\n26\n00:09:56,874 --> 00:10:20,257\n報告委員這個部分我跟委員報告我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間我們青年的失業都降到歷來最低那我們真的推動上有一些成果出來部長是不是要時間關係再請你把相關的因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做\n\n27\n00:10:21,378 --> 00:10:21,678\n謝謝林月營\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n9502\t17919\t主席好,有請我們的勞動部部長跟我們的勞動發展署的蔡署長請蔡署長\n19025\t41412\t林委好。部長早。根據媒體的消息是下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議,要討論行業名額跟方式。是不是想問的,因為前幾天重症雇主團體來向本席陳情表示對我們的對象\n42412\t59982\t也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早\n60998\t61839\t我們有邀請我們相關的部會．\n88059\t97942\t希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症的一些家庭可能要去考量\n98703\t127868\t那接下來想部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裏邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供\n128348\t128568\t會變成像主管\n156883\t157604\t司法局局長\n186323\t213063\t呃...\n213163\t214283\t方偉,如果像您剛剛這樣的\n229049\t236676\t您怎麼去認定有沒有違法,甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰?因為這個個案的情形,我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解,進一步來了解,然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理?\n251755\t254796\t就業服務法也是三十年了本來你自己的\n281602\t296511\t也有特別去提到說因為就業服務法三十年在前年的我們的勞動部發行的臺灣勞工紀刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的一個改革可是\n298759\t317354\t這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多\n317714\t343041\t比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業\n344401\t364297\t那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談的比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振\n364717\t390210\t可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做我覺得這比重失衡的狀況裡邊我們國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業當然我知道部長很努力中高齡的就業的確有些起色可是青年就業呢青年事實上是未來我們國家的本可是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道\n391676\t402648\t在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?\n404492\t409294\t您有這樣的質疑,我是跟你回答說不會啦,但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據提供給我們來瞭解。\n428303\t455531\t如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人聘僱我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是\n456523\t479315\t整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能因為外國人聘僱他可能有一些認為時空背景或是需要一些做一些滾動性的修正對可是大概都是以外國人怎麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢\n480938\t501148\t國內就業提振我們是很多的用計畫方案去推動政府常常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡邊沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的事實上\n501828\t524515\t思考的事實上是外國評估的管理的模式。報告委員,其實我們很多法,它會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動。執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動,因為用計劃的話,比較容易去滾動性的修正。對,可是部長,我們看齁,像現在……其他都是在法的大架構下去推動,都是依法行政。\n524735\t540745\t像去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有。為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國安求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104\n542846\t569622\t這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期\n570562\t596094\t所以失利的更不用講了所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業我們在使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該要去因應\n596874\t620257\t報告委員這個部分我跟委員報告我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間我們青年的失業都降到歷來最低那我們真的推動上有一些成果出來部長是不是要時間關係再請你把相關的因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做\n621378\t621678\t謝謝林月營\n","txt":"主席好,有請我們的勞動部部長跟我們的勞動發展署的蔡署長請蔡署長\n林委好。部長早。根據媒體的消息是下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議,要討論行業名額跟方式。是不是想問的,因為前幾天重症雇主團體來向本席陳情表示對我們的對象\n也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早\n我們有邀請我們相關的部會．\n希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症的一些家庭可能要去考量\n那接下來想部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裏邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供\n會變成像主管\n司法局局長\n呃...\n方偉,如果像您剛剛這樣的\n您怎麼去認定有沒有違法,甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰?因為這個個案的情形,我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解,進一步來了解,然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理?\n就業服務法也是三十年了本來你自己的\n也有特別去提到說因為就業服務法三十年在前年的我們的勞動部發行的臺灣勞工紀刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的一個改革可是\n這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多\n比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業\n那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談的比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振\n可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做我覺得這比重失衡的狀況裡邊我們國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業當然我知道部長很努力中高齡的就業的確有些起色可是青年就業呢青年事實上是未來我們國家的本可是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道\n在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?\n您有這樣的質疑,我是跟你回答說不會啦,但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據提供給我們來瞭解。\n如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人聘僱我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是\n整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能因為外國人聘僱他可能有一些認為時空背景或是需要一些做一些滾動性的修正對可是大概都是以外國人怎麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢\n國內就業提振我們是很多的用計畫方案去推動政府常常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡邊沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的事實上\n思考的事實上是外國評估的管理的模式。報告委員,其實我們很多法,它會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動。執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動,因為用計劃的話,比較容易去滾動性的修正。對,可是部長,我們看齁,像現在……其他都是在法的大架構下去推動,都是依法行政。\n像去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有。為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國安求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104\n這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期\n所以失利的更不用講了所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業我們在使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該要去因應\n報告委員這個部分我跟委員報告我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間我們青年的失業都降到歷來最低那我們真的推動上有一些成果出來部長是不是要時間關係再請你把相關的因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做\n謝謝林月營\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:09.502 --> 00:17.919\n主席好,有請我們的勞動部部長跟我們的勞動發展署的蔡署長請蔡署長\n\n00:19.025 --> 00:41.412\n林委好。部長早。根據媒體的消息是下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議,要討論行業名額跟方式。是不是想問的,因為前幾天重症雇主團體來向本席陳情表示對我們的對象\n\n00:42.412 --> 00:59.982\n也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早\n\n01:00.998 --> 01:01.839\n我們有邀請我們相關的部會．\n\n01:28.059 --> 01:37.942\n希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症的一些家庭可能要去考量\n\n01:38.703 --> 02:07.868\n那接下來想部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裏邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供\n\n02:08.348 --> 02:08.568\n會變成像主管\n\n02:36.883 --> 02:37.604\n司法局局長\n\n03:33.163 --> 03:34.283\n方偉,如果像您剛剛這樣的\n\n03:49.049 --> 03:56.676\n您怎麼去認定有沒有違法,甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰?因為這個個案的情形,我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解,進一步來了解,然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理?\n\n04:11.755 --> 04:14.796\n就業服務法也是三十年了本來你自己的\n\n04:41.602 --> 04:56.511\n也有特別去提到說因為就業服務法三十年在前年的我們的勞動部發行的臺灣勞工紀刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的一個改革可是\n\n04:58.759 --> 05:17.354\n這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多\n\n05:17.714 --> 05:43.041\n比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業\n\n05:44.401 --> 06:04.297\n那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談的比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振\n\n06:04.717 --> 06:30.210\n可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做我覺得這比重失衡的狀況裡邊我們國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業當然我知道部長很努力中高齡的就業的確有些起色可是青年就業呢青年事實上是未來我們國家的本可是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道\n\n06:31.676 --> 06:42.648\n在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?\n\n06:44.492 --> 06:49.294\n您有這樣的質疑,我是跟你回答說不會啦,但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據提供給我們來瞭解。\n\n07:08.303 --> 07:35.531\n如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人聘僱我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是\n\n07:36.523 --> 07:59.315\n整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能因為外國人聘僱他可能有一些認為時空背景或是需要一些做一些滾動性的修正對可是大概都是以外國人怎麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢\n\n08:00.938 --> 08:21.148\n國內就業提振我們是很多的用計畫方案去推動政府常常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡邊沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的事實上\n\n08:21.828 --> 08:44.515\n思考的事實上是外國評估的管理的模式。報告委員,其實我們很多法,它會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動。執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動,因為用計劃的話,比較容易去滾動性的修正。對,可是部長,我們看齁,像現在……其他都是在法的大架構下去推動,都是依法行政。\n\n08:44.735 --> 09:00.745\n像去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有。為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國安求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104\n\n09:02.846 --> 09:29.622\n這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期\n\n09:30.562 --> 09:56.094\n所以失利的更不用講了所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業我們在使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該要去因應\n\n09:56.874 --> 10:20.257\n報告委員這個部分我跟委員報告我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間我們青年的失業都降到歷來最低那我們真的推動上有一些成果出來部長是不是要時間關係再請你把相關的因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做\n\n10:21.378 --> 10:21.678\n謝謝林月營\n\n","segments":[{"start":9.502,"end":17.919,"text":"主席好,有請我們的勞動部部長跟我們的勞動發展署的蔡署長請蔡署長"},{"start":19.025,"end":41.412,"text":"林委好。部長早。根據媒體的消息是下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議,要討論行業名額跟方式。是不是想問的,因為前幾天重症雇主團體來向本席陳情表示對我們的對象"},{"start":42.412,"end":59.982,"text":"也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早"},{"start":60.998,"end":61.839,"text":"我們有邀請我們相關的部會．"},{"start":88.059,"end":97.942,"text":"希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症的一些家庭可能要去考量"},{"start":98.703,"end":127.868,"text":"那接下來想部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裏邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供"},{"start":128.348,"end":128.568,"text":"會變成像主管"},{"start":156.883,"end":157.604,"text":"司法局局長"},{"start":186.323,"end":213.063,"text":"呃..."},{"start":213.163,"end":214.283,"text":"方偉,如果像您剛剛這樣的"},{"start":229.049,"end":236.676,"text":"您怎麼去認定有沒有違法,甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰?因為這個個案的情形,我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解,進一步來了解,然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理?"},{"start":251.755,"end":254.796,"text":"就業服務法也是三十年了本來你自己的"},{"start":281.602,"end":296.511,"text":"也有特別去提到說因為就業服務法三十年在前年的我們的勞動部發行的臺灣勞工紀刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的一個改革可是"},{"start":298.759,"end":317.354,"text":"這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多"},{"start":317.714,"end":343.041,"text":"比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業"},{"start":344.401,"end":364.297,"text":"那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談的比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振"},{"start":364.717,"end":390.21,"text":"可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做我覺得這比重失衡的狀況裡邊我們國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業當然我知道部長很努力中高齡的就業的確有些起色可是青年就業呢青年事實上是未來我們國家的本可是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道"},{"start":391.676,"end":402.648,"text":"在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?"},{"start":404.492,"end":409.294,"text":"您有這樣的質疑,我是跟你回答說不會啦,但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據提供給我們來瞭解。"},{"start":428.303,"end":455.531,"text":"如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人聘僱我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是"},{"start":456.523,"end":479.315,"text":"整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能因為外國人聘僱他可能有一些認為時空背景或是需要一些做一些滾動性的修正對可是大概都是以外國人怎麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢"},{"start":480.938,"end":501.148,"text":"國內就業提振我們是很多的用計畫方案去推動政府常常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡邊沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的事實上"},{"start":501.828,"end":524.515,"text":"思考的事實上是外國評估的管理的模式。報告委員,其實我們很多法,它會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動。執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動,因為用計劃的話,比較容易去滾動性的修正。對,可是部長,我們看齁,像現在……其他都是在法的大架構下去推動,都是依法行政。"},{"start":524.735,"end":540.745,"text":"像去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有。為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國安求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104"},{"start":542.846,"end":569.622,"text":"這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期"},{"start":570.562,"end":596.094,"text":"所以失利的更不用講了所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業我們在使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該要去因應"},{"start":596.874,"end":620.257,"text":"報告委員這個部分我跟委員報告我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間我們青年的失業都降到歷來最低那我們真的推動上有一些成果出來部長是不是要時間關係再請你把相關的因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做"},{"start":621.378,"end":621.678,"text":"謝謝林月營"}]}}}}