{"id":151742,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce157ca0a34ecb0e9ff3e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed04c2ba58a9ccea5e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:44:04 - 10:57:59","影片長度":"00:13:55","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":835,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:57:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:44:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時44分）謝謝主席，有請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議，相對是非常正面，打造權責相符的進步國會，這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步。我也非常期待下午我們要進入逐條，我懇切地在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延、國會改革不要再害怕，下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利。","據說傅崐萁總召好像人還沒有來到立院，今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮、還沒有在場，所以早上我們可以進行議事，再一次拜託，下午如果傅總召來到現場，我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查、就事論事、就法案論法案的這樣一個好的議事態度。","進入我的主題之前，我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見，羅智強委員在這裡，謝謝你收了我送你的書，你也回送我一本書，這是一個很好的心靈交流，我也謝謝吳宗憲委員送我的書，我今天有帶來委員會看，一起來看文藝復興，我們都需要更多的文化感。羅智強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本，羅委員每一次都以為撿到槍，其實是見樹不見林，我再一次要說明修法就是與時俱進，您是立法院的新科立委，但您一定也知道屆期不連續是什麼。秘書長，屆期不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年，每一個屆期因應新的民意、新的代表性，以及新的進步思維，所以法案都要重新再來。屆期不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意、基於更進步的新思維，然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重行檢視，所以民進黨在2016年國會改革的版本，當下民主進步黨是國會多數，如果要通過也可以通過，但因為當時國會調查權的這個章節，社會沒有匯聚共識，甚至也有違憲之虞，所以在憲法之前，人人都得低頭，在民意之前，國會議員更當低頭。因此民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案，新的屆期、新的民意，民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案，就如同我們現在的版本，歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。","另外我也要回應黃國昌總召，其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候，他已經講了他的立場，國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨，這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本，從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案，提出任何意見跟討論，反而非常選擇性、非常針對性地對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊。如同剛剛講的#MeToo的法案，他支持、他不反對，但是又利用立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做，立法委員不當關說也要入法，剛剛秘書長說明得很好，立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了？"],["周秘書長萬來：行為法第十七條就規範了。"],["吳委員思瑤：是嘛！已經有了嘛！所以說#MeToo的法案目前沒有，對不對？在立法委員的相關法案裡頭目前沒有，所以在沒有涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項，這一次就應當來修法、入法，所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性地針對民進黨的版本，提出不實的攻擊。","我再次強調，如果有好的建議，歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見，我們一起來修法、入法，我絕對樂見，但如果只是針對性、選擇性地為攻擊而攻擊，而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。黃國昌委員說的國會改革，基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨，這一個宣示正足以證明他在國會改革的議案上，政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業。我再一次說，這是非常遺憾的事。","進入我ppt的第6頁，因為時間有限。秘書長，國會的功能有哪些？您對進步國會的想像有什麼？這個題目很大，是大哉問，我可以請教您，您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪，有沒有哪個進步國會的建築設計讓您印象深刻的嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：你要看大或小……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，您個人分享。"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人大概走了三十幾個國家。"],["吳委員思瑤：哇！好棒。"],["周秘書長萬來：從幾個來看，澳洲坎培拉的那個是最大的，但是匈牙利的是比較豪華，我個人是認為德國的……"],["吳委員思瑤：德國柏林的新國會。"],["周秘書長萬來：它滿好的。因為美國是比較早去，它外面的空間大。其實我要回過頭來講，從82年的華山到這個空軍總部，跟現在……"],["吳委員思瑤：都一直在繼續思考。"],["周秘書長萬來：我推動的大概都有參與，我個人是認為……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我稍後會就這個部分跟您討論，我先打住在這裡。"],["周秘書長萬來：抱歉，我可以講一句話嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：好，可以。"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講，因為現有的研究室，當時也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室，包括……"],["吳委員思瑤：勉強擠出來的空間。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，所以擴建本身我個人不反對。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，當然。"],["周秘書長萬來：而且我個人……如果是以硬體的設備來講，當然在國會的運作上是有必要的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是可以提升我們的問政監督品質，謝謝秘書長。所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會，不管是遷建、擴建，我們有一個具體的條文，就是希望可以幫立法院一把。進步國會超越了物質性的建築想像，其實承載了更多精神性的意涵。對內，一個國會，它是國政監督的基地，它也可能是社會陳抗的空間，人民團體在國會的廣場抗議、陳抗就可以讓立法者聽見陳抗者的心聲，這也是國會的功能。國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂，我們跟很多的NGO合作，甚至可以規劃進駐NGO的幾個團體，把空間coworking space for這些公民團體；對外，一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域，也可能成為民主觀光的景點，這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像。","我是一個建築迷大家都知道，這幾個列出來的國會，譬如說柯比意為印度國會設計香地葛的國會，譬如說，這個Oscar Niemeyer在巴西所設計的巴西國會，又包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn，他在孟加拉打卡的國會，這都是所有觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。","您剛剛講德國柏林的新國會，我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定，它有三個時代性的意義，當柏林圍牆在1989年打開了以後，德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵，所以請了英國普立茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster 1992年動手，1994年完工，他有一個政治民主意涵的歷史意義。","第二個，他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂，人民可以走到最高位的制高點，往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政，這象徵的意義就是打開國會，國會是透明的，讓陽光照進來，人民可以在最高位，由上往下看，這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位，這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義。第三個，這個建築所實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築功能，它不只是選擇再生材料，它的整個發電系統都是再生能源，所以德國這個將民主、透明、公開、實踐集大成的國會建築能成為現在每到德國柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗（experience）的一個重要民主建築。反觀臺灣，有在野黨表示國會擴建只是想花錢，錯！國會如果擴建、遷建，顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員，我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會，那時候的新民意，他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性建築。","立法院能不升級嗎？當初為了反攻大陸，勉強屈就於第二高女，因陋就簡，把教室當作議場、辦公室，它當然不合用。立法院能不升級嗎？立法院就是一個拼裝車，我們在場這麼多媒體朋友，他們的國會連線是擠在黨團辦公室前面的那個走廊耶！立法院有很多的違建，就因為因陋就簡，立法院的職員們在昏暗、擁擠的辦公空間裡面工作，怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢？狹小的空間早已不敷需求，而且秘書長你也很清楚，立法院是有違建的。","立法院把教室當會議室，我秀出來的就是，吳宗憲委員說他藏了8支麥克風在口袋，我才知道原來司法及法制委員會有8支麥克風。我們常常在審查預算的時候，我過去在教育及文化委員會很痛苦，每一個委員要發言，那個麥克風要傳來傳去、遞來遞去，就是一個非常落伍的開會空間，更不要說我們後面牆上都會有一個顯示我們的含氧量、二氧化碳濃度超標的設置，為什麼要？因為它的通風不夠，常常一個狹小的辦公室擠進多少位的行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員，所以才會有開會空間只要二氧化碳濃度超標異常，喔！超標了，大家趕快出去休息一下，這是臺灣的國會。","所以我們在面對歷史，國會的擴建、遷建不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥，臺灣是世界華人民主的基地，臺灣是民主同盟國家，大家都誇獎、都說讚的一個好的民主表現國家，臺灣值得一個進步的國會，就如同您一樣。","游錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會，也擇定了6處的遷建場址，如果遷建不成，原地擴建也是選項，游錫堃創下了這樣的歷史使命，我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會重建、遷建的歷史性使命要跟上來，好嗎？我們後續再討論，也希望主席可以讓我請求，針對這個主題，其實是可以安排公聽會，我們讓專業者好好來討論，臺灣值得一個好的國會，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員的提議，謝謝秘書長。如果真的立法院能夠遷到一個臺灣比較交通的中心，我們南部、國境之南的委員就不用花那麼多的交通時間，謝謝吳委員的提議。","現在我們依先前的宣告，休息5分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：休息時間好像有點不太夠，周秘書長，今天整棟紅樓只有我們委員會在開會，廁所都還不夠，所以真的蠻迫切需要的。","現在繼續開會。","現在有請柯委員建銘詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 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\"end\": 829.528, \"score\": 0.426}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"吳\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 829.528, \"end\": 829.608, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 829.608, \"end\": 829.628, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"提\", \"start\": 829.628, \"end\": 829.648, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"議\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,189 --> 00:00:12,397\n委員司姚發言請謝謝主席有請秘書長請周秘書長\n\n2\n00:00:25,402 --> 00:00:49,144\n委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造選擇相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步我也非常期待下午我們要進入主條\n\n3\n00:00:50,345 --> 00:01:17,038\n我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦所以今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事\n\n4\n00:01:18,368 --> 00:01:38,148\n再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就是論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的意識態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見\n\n5\n00:01:39,329 --> 00:01:40,290\n羅志強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本\n\n6\n00:01:59,048 --> 00:02:12,203\n若委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。\n\n7\n00:02:14,145 --> 00:02:42,460\n秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的民意、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本\n\n8\n00:02:43,460 --> 00:03:05,340\n當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此\n\n9\n00:03:09,687 --> 00:03:23,286\n民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。\n\n10\n00:03:26,065 --> 00:03:41,198\n另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨\n\n11\n00:03:42,419 --> 00:04:02,627\n這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊\n\n12\n00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:22,928\n如同剛剛講的METOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了\n\n13\n00:04:24,048 --> 00:04:25,589\n行為法十七條就歸雜了。所以在沒有的涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法。\n\n14\n00:04:46,320 --> 00:05:07,999\n所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法我絕對樂見但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊\n\n15\n00:05:13,283 --> 00:05:40,997\n而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。」黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事好進入我的PPT進入我的第六頁因為時間有限\n\n16\n00:05:43,318 --> 00:06:03,689\n民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大家在問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪,有沒有哪個進步國會的建築、設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?\n\n17\n00:06:04,997 --> 00:06:05,757\n三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具\n\n18\n00:06:23,427 --> 00:06:23,947\n條文宣告\n\n19\n00:06:41,676 --> 00:06:42,716\n條文修正草案案案。\n\n20\n00:06:59,443 --> 00:07:19,919\n案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室,包括心腸。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國外的一個運作上是有必要的,所以我也不反對。\n\n21\n00:07:23,442 --> 00:07:42,985\n所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會他是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像他其實承載了更多精神性的意涵\n\n22\n00:07:43,814 --> 00:07:44,334\n案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條\n\n23\n00:08:00,343 --> 00:08:20,657\n國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂我們跟很多的NGO合作甚至可以規劃NGO進駐的幾個團體把空間co-workingspacefor這些公民團體對外呢一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域它也可能成為民主觀光的景點這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像下一頁\n\n24\n00:08:27,833 --> 00:08:44,204\n我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。\n\n25\n00:08:45,605 --> 00:09:10,715\n並包括美國知名的建築師LouisKahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後\n\n26\n00:09:14,517 --> 00:09:30,089\n德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師NormanFoster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的\n\n27\n00:09:31,457 --> 00:09:58,562\n歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義\n\n28\n00:10:00,982 --> 00:10:24,403\n第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。\n\n29\n00:10:28,367 --> 00:10:35,666\nexperience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。\n\n30\n00:10:38,860 --> 00:11:05,212\n有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸\n\n31\n00:11:06,584 --> 00:11:22,617\n免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。\n\n32\n00:11:29,124 --> 00:11:48,990\n立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁\n\n33\n00:11:51,806 --> 00:12:07,953\n立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育文化委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去\n\n34\n00:12:11,494 --> 00:12:40,334\n就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要因為他的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下\n\n35\n00:12:41,525 --> 00:13:04,075\n這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會\n\n36\n00:13:08,991 --> 00:13:24,586\n就如同您一樣,最後一頁由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會也責定了六處的簽件長職如果簽件不成,原地擴建也是選項\n\n37\n00:13:26,067 --> 00:13:49,648\n由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝好謝謝吳委員的提議\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n189\t12397\t委員司姚發言請謝謝主席 有請秘書長請周秘書長\n25402\t49144\t委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造選擇相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步我也非常期待下午我們要進入主條\n50345\t77038\t我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦所以今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事\n78368\t98148\t再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就是論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的意識態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見\n99329\t100290\t羅志強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本\n119048\t132203\t若委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。\n134145\t162460\t秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的民意、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本\n163460\t185340\t當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此\n189687\t203286\t民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。\n206065\t221198\t另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨\n222419\t242627\t這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊\n243840\t262928\t如同剛剛講的ME TOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了\n264048\t265589\t行為法十七條就歸雜了。所以在沒有的涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法。\n286320\t307999\t所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法我絕對樂見但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊\n313283\t340997\t而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。」黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事好進入我的PPT進入我的第六頁因為時間有限\n343318\t363689\t民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大家在問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪,有沒有哪個進步國會的建築、設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?\n364997\t365757\t三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具\n383427\t383947\t條文宣告\n401676\t402716\t條文修正草案案案 。\n419443\t439919\t案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室,包括心腸。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國外的一個運作上是有必要的,所以我也不反對。\n443442\t462985\t所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會他是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像他其實承載了更多精神性的意涵\n463814\t464334\t案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條\n480343\t500657\t國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂我們跟很多的NGO合作甚至可以規劃NGO進駐的幾個團體把空間co-working space for這些公民團體對外呢一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域它也可能成為民主觀光的景點這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像下一頁\n507833\t524204\t我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。\n525605\t550715\t並包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後\n554517\t570089\t德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的\n571457\t598562\t歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義\n600982\t624403\t第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。\n628367\t635666\texperience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。\n638860\t665212\t有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸\n666584\t682617\t免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。\n689124\t708990\t立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁\n711806\t727953\t立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育文化委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去\n731494\t760334\t就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要因為他的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下\n761525\t784075\t這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會\n788991\t804586\t就如同您一樣,最後一頁由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會也責定了六處的簽件長職如果簽件不成,原地擴建也是選項\n806067\t829648\t由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝好謝謝吳委員的提議\n","txt":"委員司姚發言請謝謝主席 有請秘書長請周秘書長\n委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造選擇相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步我也非常期待下午我們要進入主條\n我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦所以今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事\n再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就是論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的意識態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見\n羅志強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本\n若委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。\n秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的民意、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本\n當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此\n民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。\n另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨\n這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊\n如同剛剛講的ME TOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了\n行為法十七條就歸雜了。所以在沒有的涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法。\n所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法我絕對樂見但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊\n而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。」黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事好進入我的PPT進入我的第六頁因為時間有限\n民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大家在問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪,有沒有哪個進步國會的建築、設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?\n三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具\n條文宣告\n條文修正草案案案 。\n案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室,包括心腸。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國外的一個運作上是有必要的,所以我也不反對。\n所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會他是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像他其實承載了更多精神性的意涵\n案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條\n國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂我們跟很多的NGO合作甚至可以規劃NGO進駐的幾個團體把空間co-working space for這些公民團體對外呢一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域它也可能成為民主觀光的景點這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像下一頁\n我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。\n並包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後\n德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的\n歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義\n第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。\nexperience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。\n有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸\n免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。\n立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁\n立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育文化委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去\n就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要因為他的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下\n這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會\n就如同您一樣,最後一頁由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會也責定了六處的簽件長職如果簽件不成,原地擴建也是選項\n由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝好謝謝吳委員的提議\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.189 --> 00:12.397\n委員司姚發言請謝謝主席有請秘書長請周秘書長\n\n00:25.402 --> 00:49.144\n委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造選擇相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步我也非常期待下午我們要進入主條\n\n00:50.345 --> 01:17.038\n我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦所以今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事\n\n01:18.368 --> 01:38.148\n再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就是論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的意識態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見\n\n01:39.329 --> 01:40.290\n羅志強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本\n\n01:59.048 --> 02:12.203\n若委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。\n\n02:14.145 --> 02:42.460\n秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的民意、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本\n\n02:43.460 --> 03:05.340\n當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此\n\n03:09.687 --> 03:23.286\n民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。\n\n03:26.065 --> 03:41.198\n另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨\n\n03:42.419 --> 04:02.627\n這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊\n\n04:03.840 --> 04:22.928\n如同剛剛講的METOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了\n\n04:24.048 --> 04:25.589\n行為法十七條就歸雜了。所以在沒有的涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法。\n\n04:46.320 --> 05:07.999\n所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法我絕對樂見但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊\n\n05:13.283 --> 05:40.997\n而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。」黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事好進入我的PPT進入我的第六頁因為時間有限\n\n05:43.318 --> 06:03.689\n民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大家在問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪,有沒有哪個進步國會的建築、設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?\n\n06:04.997 --> 06:05.757\n三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具\n\n06:23.427 --> 06:23.947\n條文宣告\n\n06:41.676 --> 06:42.716\n條文修正草案案案。\n\n06:59.443 --> 07:19.919\n案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室,包括心腸。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國外的一個運作上是有必要的,所以我也不反對。\n\n07:23.442 --> 07:42.985\n所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會他是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像他其實承載了更多精神性的意涵\n\n07:43.814 --> 07:44.334\n案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條\n\n08:00.343 --> 08:20.657\n國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂我們跟很多的NGO合作甚至可以規劃NGO進駐的幾個團體把空間co-workingspacefor這些公民團體對外呢一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域它也可能成為民主觀光的景點這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像下一頁\n\n08:27.833 --> 08:44.204\n我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。\n\n08:45.605 --> 09:10.715\n並包括美國知名的建築師LouisKahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後\n\n09:14.517 --> 09:30.089\n德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師NormanFoster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的\n\n09:31.457 --> 09:58.562\n歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義\n\n10:00.982 --> 10:24.403\n第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。\n\n10:28.367 --> 10:35.666\nexperience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。\n\n10:38.860 --> 11:05.212\n有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸\n\n11:06.584 --> 11:22.617\n免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。\n\n11:29.124 --> 11:48.990\n立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁\n\n11:51.806 --> 12:07.953\n立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育文化委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去\n\n12:11.494 --> 12:40.334\n就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要因為他的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下\n\n12:41.525 --> 13:04.075\n這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會\n\n13:08.991 --> 13:24.586\n就如同您一樣,最後一頁由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會也責定了六處的簽件長職如果簽件不成,原地擴建也是選項\n\n13:26.067 --> 13:49.648\n由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝好謝謝吳委員的提議\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.189,"end":12.397,"text":"委員司姚發言請謝謝主席 有請秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":25.402,"end":49.144,"text":"委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造選擇相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步我也非常期待下午我們要進入主條"},{"start":50.345,"end":77.038,"text":"我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦所以今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事"},{"start":78.368,"end":98.148,"text":"再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就是論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的意識態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見"},{"start":99.329,"end":100.29,"text":"羅志強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本"},{"start":119.048,"end":132.203,"text":"若委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。"},{"start":134.145,"end":162.46,"text":"秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的民意、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本"},{"start":163.46,"end":185.34,"text":"當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此"},{"start":189.687,"end":203.286,"text":"民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。"},{"start":206.065,"end":221.198,"text":"另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨"},{"start":222.419,"end":242.627,"text":"這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊"},{"start":243.84,"end":262.928,"text":"如同剛剛講的ME TOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了"},{"start":264.048,"end":265.589,"text":"行為法十七條就歸雜了。所以在沒有的涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法。"},{"start":286.32,"end":307.999,"text":"所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法我絕對樂見但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊"},{"start":313.283,"end":340.997,"text":"而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。」黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事好進入我的PPT進入我的第六頁因為時間有限"},{"start":343.318,"end":363.689,"text":"民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大家在問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪,有沒有哪個進步國會的建築、設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?"},{"start":364.997,"end":365.757,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具"},{"start":383.427,"end":383.947,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":401.676,"end":402.716,"text":"條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":419.443,"end":439.919,"text":"案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室,包括心腸。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國外的一個運作上是有必要的,所以我也不反對。"},{"start":443.442,"end":462.985,"text":"所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會他是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像他其實承載了更多精神性的意涵"},{"start":463.814,"end":464.334,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":480.343,"end":500.657,"text":"國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂我們跟很多的NGO合作甚至可以規劃NGO進駐的幾個團體把空間co-working space for這些公民團體對外呢一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域它也可能成為民主觀光的景點這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像下一頁"},{"start":507.833,"end":524.204,"text":"我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。"},{"start":525.605,"end":550.715,"text":"並包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後"},{"start":554.517,"end":570.089,"text":"德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的"},{"start":571.457,"end":598.562,"text":"歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義"},{"start":600.982,"end":624.403,"text":"第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。"},{"start":628.367,"end":635.666,"text":"experience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。"},{"start":638.86,"end":665.212,"text":"有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸"},{"start":666.584,"end":682.617,"text":"免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。"},{"start":689.124,"end":708.99,"text":"立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁"},{"start":711.806,"end":727.953,"text":"立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育文化委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去"},{"start":731.494,"end":760.334,"text":"就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要因為他的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下"},{"start":761.525,"end":784.075,"text":"這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會"},{"start":788.991,"end":804.586,"text":"就如同您一樣,最後一頁由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會也責定了六處的簽件長職如果簽件不成,原地擴建也是選項"},{"start":806.067,"end":829.648,"text":"由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝好謝謝吳委員的提議"}]}}}}