{"id":151755,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15b857299cde551670c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed045097f08a7822b4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:43:51 - 11:55:27","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":696,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:55:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:43:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":829,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時43分）主席謝謝，麻煩請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長即將卸任了，媒體早上也有請教你，你也講說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題，缺工跟保險部分，是不是？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我講大白話啦！本席之前也講過，在委員會裡面跟你有好幾次的質詢，也講到至少我覺得你算是一個可以溝通的人，既然可以溝通，在你卸任之前我想要確認一下，既然你也提到缺工，本席特別去找了一下缺工這個議題從什麼時候開始，媒體報導是3年前就開始了，2021年就可以找到有工廠無人做的相關報導，我們也聽到很多產業界給我們的問題，包括醫院開不出床，不是沒有病床，是沒有護理人員；餐廳沒有包廂，不是沒有包廂，是沒有服務人員；飯店沒有房間，並不是因為沒有房間，而是因為沒有房務人員。所以到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題，3年過去了，我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計？我們到底缺多少工？"],["許部長銘春：大概二十三、四萬左右啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：二十三、四萬？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們過去這3年的努力，到底是缺工人數越來越多，還是有減少？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：目前看起來好像還是沒有。"],["許部長銘春：這是整個人口結構的問題，其實現在也不是只有臺灣，全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題，但我的意思是，我們面臨人口結構還是要想方法，像過去我們一直認為這些壯世代的勞參率其實比起韓日是低的，我們現在怎麼樣來……"],["洪委員孟楷：也想要延長退休年齡嘛！"],["許部長銘春：不是延長退休年齡，不需要延長，我跟委員報告，他是早退，我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多，我國在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多，55歲以後的差了20%，我就一直在想怎麼把這20%的人力開發個一半就好了，還有我們的婦女再就業，很多婦女因為家庭照顧或因為生育而離開職場，當他們可以回來的時候，或者我們有怎麼樣的友善環境來引導他們回來，讓我們國內的人力缺口藉由現在這些壯世代或者再就業婦女能夠去做一些填補，因為我們不能什麼都仰賴移工，我覺得還是要以本國為主，如果我們本國人的就業可以來開發這些人力的話，我是覺得應該先從這邊來著手。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長，其實你講到重點了，這也是本席要提到的，就是很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成我們國內好像很多工作都沒有辦法有人來做，但是重點就在於壯世代的這一個部分，怎麼樣能夠讓年長者，其實相對來講，現在的生理年齡跟身體年齡是比以前我們的傳統概念來的不一樣，所以這一點也是本席跟在座的，包括吳春城委員、包括很多委員，我們也會希望政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊。"],["許部長銘春：有，所以報告委員，我們大概從去年開始就有一個3年計畫，針對壯世代的部分，我們希望至少這3年可以多增加30萬的勞動力進到職場來，然後勞參率……"],["洪委員孟楷：有辦法嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們有信心啦！因為我們其實是雙管齊下的，讓不管是在……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們希望看到的是真實的狀況，因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到，2021年就已經缺工了，到現在2024年還在講缺工，甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告、提點就是缺工，這代表什麼？代表過去3年的時間並沒有完全解決問題啊！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實……"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題啊！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實2021年那時候還在疫情期間，會有很多因素去影響到就業意願……"],["洪委員孟楷：3年的計畫……"],["許部長銘春：然後我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今天給本席一個資料，到底這3年計畫的目前進度及辦理情形如何，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：那拉回來，另外一個部分，講到缺工，我也講到的是，對於勞動力的保障夠不夠？本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂的外送員專法，到目前為止，不要說外送員專法，從2022年我們要提出，勞動部就有講過希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則，到目前沒有下文。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：只有各縣市政府有做一個指引、各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例，但是勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則卻沒有出來。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然專法那部分真的會比較難一點，為什麼？因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法，可是實施以後發現並不理想，就是不管在勞工端或者雇主端，都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK，然後……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你們的權益指導原則為什麼一直沒有出來？"],["許部長銘春：權益指導原則我們其實有研擬，但是我們現在的重點就是放在幫助這些平臺跟外送員做對話，因為他們很多問題是，其實他們更需要的是實質的解決，因為你說訂一個原則就只是一個原則而已，所以我們常常會遇到，譬如突然他外送單的報酬被砍了，那你說訂原則，那原則上我們就不准啊，那還是沒有解決，所以我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，部長，這就是我下一個問題。"],["許部長銘春：我就是請他……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果你沒有專法，然後你又說原則無法去約束，譬如平臺跟外送員之間的一個權力不對等，那我們到底要怎麼解決？而且更重要的是……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，所以我們有建立一個對話平臺，而且是機動的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我正想講，現在有對話，但是沒有有效的溝通啊！是各說各話。"],["許部長銘春：有、有、有。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，這是你講的，在各說各話的情況下，有很多的外送員從去年到今年都在講，他們外送的權益越來越少，外送的薪資報酬越來越少，當然外送平臺跟外送員之間不是傳統的勞資關係……"],["許部長銘春：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是以往一開始外送員1單可以有70塊，到現在2單40塊，還有變成是整單0塊，那就變成是平臺的待遇、平臺的報酬，它可以自己來做調整，但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗，外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊！這樣你覺得算是有效、合理的溝通嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個問題，有時候是因為現在外送員多，變成競爭，這也是一種競爭，過去可能外送員少，他每一單的報酬會比較高一點，可是當外送員多，市場消費者單子少的時候，可能報酬就會變少，但是任何問題我們都會讓平臺跟外送員去溝通、對話，我們也要求平臺一定要……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我差點以為你要講出蔡總統的名言，你剛剛講說以前外送員少，現在外送員多，所以平臺怎麼砍是因為它可以有恃無恐，反正有勞動……"],["許部長銘春：不是，我不是這樣講，我沒有這個意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：我都很怕你講出之前蔡總統的名言。"],["許部長銘春：沒有，不會啦，委員，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊！"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，我沒有這樣講。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們自立自強啊！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，委員，我沒有這樣講，我是要跟你說，有些狀況……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是嘛！所以本席現在講的是，有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被檢討？"],["許部長銘春：有，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你們做了什麼努力？"],["許部長銘春：所以我們就是透過對話來要求業者……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然我們的原則沒有出來，專法也沒有辦法立，那我們到底現在有什麼方式可以至少取得一個平衡？我其實站在天平的兩邊，外送平臺是一個技術的產業，是一個app……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實對話……"],["洪委員孟楷：能方便大家的生活，能夠讓餐廳有外送平臺以及外送員來幫助，也讓餐廳增加一些業績，尤其在疫情期間確實有增加，外送員也可以選擇自己的工作。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是如果天平傾向某一邊，變成是外送平臺比較強勢，外送員比較弱勢，而外送員又沒有得到保障，尤其你們身為勞動部，應該是勞工的一個靠山，那我不知道還有什麼辦法。你又講說專法沒有辦法出來，看起來現在也沒有專法，之前2022年承諾說要有勞動權益指導原則，也沒有出來。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有要繼續推動？"],["許部長銘春：我們會……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是只是一個空話？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，原則我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是勞動部能夠當公親，定期找外送員、外送平臺來喝咖啡？"],["許部長銘春：針對這些爭議的議題，我們現在就是在每次的正式會議都會邀……"],["洪委員孟楷：有定期嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：定期是多久？"],["王司長厚偉：1個月到1個半月。"],["洪委員孟楷：會議紀錄有提供給大家看嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：有，都有給工會。"],["洪委員孟楷：都有給工會，那是不是能夠給本席？因為本席在質詢的時候其實是要不到相關資料的。"],["許部長銘春：我們把那個會議紀錄給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：我其實是沒有看到公開的，其實是沒有展現的。"],["許部長銘春：我再把會議紀錄給委員。"],["主席：請勞動部把資料提供給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這部分您剛剛也提到了，就是外送員有那麼多，外送員也想要瞭解他的權益，如果說定期有開會，剛也講了，1個月到1個半月真的有開會的話，也應該要適時地揭露，讓所有的外送員可以知道。外送平臺就那幾家，但是外送員進進出出，我覺得這一點也是讓國人瞭解，到底他們有什麼樣的權利。"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果真的進入之後，勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山，所以……"],["主席：請部長會後把資料提供給洪委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：未來是不是能夠把我們定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁？這可以做得到吧？"],["許部長銘春：我們一般都是給工會啦！工會會給……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，給工會，但我現在講的是外送員畢竟不是每一個人都有參加工會，而且很多人可能目前還沒有。"],["許部長銘春：沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實我覺得既然你有開會，既然你也覺得你們可以持平地找外送平臺跟外送員協調的話，你的會議紀錄就可以公開，這樣可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開？"],["許部長銘春：1個禮拜好嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：1個禮拜？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們把它整理一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以把過去的會議紀錄，以及未來定期開會的會議紀錄放在勞動部的網站上面，讓人家來搜尋。"],["許部長銘春：好，可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有1案，請宣讀。","有鑑於我國不當勞動行為裁決委員會，乃勞資爭議處理法在98年全文修正後，所開始運作之法定編組。然而，經查勞動部自該時施行裁決作業迄今，近年雖辦理有視訊作業要點，和勞工及工會出席裁決會議交通費要點二項規定，卻仍然無法有效解決外縣市人員所遇參與不便利及權益不平等之施政缺失，每每徒增人員在負擔交通奔波的時間機會成本下，所在勞動權益上又受額外之侵損。爰此，特決議請勞動部，針對在中、南部設置不當勞動行為裁決研議可行性，於一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　王育敏　　邱鎮軍"],["主席：請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["王司長厚偉：謝謝陳委員的這個書面提案，請問委員，我們可不可以就改幾個字？就是在倒數第三行，「設置不當勞動行為裁決」的後面，加「委員會」3個字，就是在裁決之後加「委員會」。以上。其他的我們沒有意見。"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["陳委員菁徽：同意。"],["主席：同意，好。"],["王司長厚偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：那就照文字修正通過。臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"路\", \"start\": 689.407, \"end\": 689.568, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 689.568, \"end\": 690.209, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 690.209, \"end\": 690.369, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 690.369, \"end\": 690.75, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"搜\", \"start\": 690.75, \"end\": 690.77, \"score\": 0.129}, {\"word\": \"尋\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,471 --> 00:00:24,436\n主席,謝謝。麻煩請許部長。請許部長。紅維好。部長好。即將卸任,媒體早上有請教你。你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題。缺工跟\n\n2\n00:00:25,424 --> 00:00:25,664\n三年前就開始。\n\n3\n00:00:51,533 --> 00:01:14,134\n2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有防務人員所以\n\n4\n00:01:15,953 --> 00:01:37,424\n到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題,過去三年過去了,我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計?我們到底缺多少工?大概23、4萬左右啦。23、4萬。那過去這三年,我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少?\n\n5\n00:01:38,044 --> 00:01:56,020\n報告委因為目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代\n\n6\n00:01:58,522 --> 00:02:22,657\n的就我們的勞參率是其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎不是延長退休年齡不需要延長因為很多是我跟我說他是早退比如說很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後\n\n7\n00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:25,380\n我們國內的這些\n\n8\n00:02:49,921 --> 00:02:55,986\n是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做\n\n9\n00:03:17,725 --> 00:03:41,245\n但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊\n\n10\n00:03:43,206 --> 00:03:53,451\n所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加三十萬的勞動力進到職場來\n\n11\n00:03:59,375 --> 00:04:16,825\n有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心,因為我們其實是雙管齊下。部長,我們希望看到的是真實的狀況,因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了,到現在2024年還在講缺工。\n\n12\n00:04:18,866 --> 00:04:39,940\n甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告提點就是缺工代表什麼代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到\n\n13\n00:04:42,102 --> 00:05:02,039\n來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪\n\n14\n00:05:03,769 --> 00:05:29,970\n到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則但目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來報告委員這個我們在\n\n15\n00:05:30,570 --> 00:05:45,007\n整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端\n\n16\n00:05:45,567 --> 00:06:08,841\n都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK。但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有說呢?權力指導原則我們其實有原理但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決\n\n17\n00:06:10,322 --> 00:06:39,204\n所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則那原則他我們說不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講\n\n18\n00:06:40,164 --> 00:06:56,556\n現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通是各說各話這是你講的現在各說各話的情況就是很多外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少\n\n19\n00:06:57,416 --> 00:07:22,074\n當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊\n\n20\n00:07:22,654 --> 00:07:43,633\n那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎?這個問題有時候就是說因為外送員多啦變成競爭這也是一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些消費者\n\n21\n00:07:44,974 --> 00:07:45,814\n我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言\n\n22\n00:08:05,219 --> 00:08:27,233\n你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出會之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣你們自立自強啊沒有委員我沒有講這樣不是嘛所以本期現在講的是有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少\n\n23\n00:08:29,996 --> 00:08:30,879\n所以我們就是透過對話來要求\n\n24\n00:08:36,974 --> 00:09:04,001\n我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天平的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天平傾向一邊\n\n25\n00:09:05,081 --> 00:09:25,472\n變成是外送平台比較強勢外送員比較弱勢而外送員比較弱勢又沒有得到保障尤其是我們身為勞動部應該是勞工的一個靠山的時候那我不知道說還有什麼辦法那你又講說專法沒有辦法出來看起來現在也沒有專法那之前2022年承諾的說要勞動權益指導原則也沒有出來\n\n26\n00:09:29,205 --> 00:09:54,284\n有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員、外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎有定多久\n\n27\n00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:23,801\n有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給公會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多那外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了\n\n28\n00:10:25,202 --> 00:10:51,309\n一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁\n\n29\n00:10:54,133 --> 00:11:18,775\n這可以做得到吧?我們一般都是給工會啦!給工會啊!但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台跟外送員的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以!多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?\n\n30\n00:11:20,873 --> 00:11:30,770\n一個禮拜好嗎?一個禮拜。我們要整理一下。勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6471\t24436\t主席,謝謝。麻煩請許部長。請許部長。紅維好。部長好。即將卸任,媒體早上有請教你。你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題。缺工跟\n25424\t25664\t三年前就開始。\n51533\t74134\t2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有防務人員所以\n75953\t97424\t到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題,過去三年過去了,我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計?我們到底缺多少工?大概23、4萬左右啦。23、4萬。那過去這三年,我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少?\n98044\t116020\t報告委因為目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代\n118522\t142657\t的就我們的勞參率是其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎不是延長退休年齡不需要延長因為很多是我跟我說他是早退比如說很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後\n145000\t145380\t我們國內的這些\n169921\t175986\t是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做\n197725\t221245\t但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊\n223206\t233451\t所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加三十萬的勞動力進到職場來\n239375\t256825\t有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心,因為我們其實是雙管齊下。部長,我們希望看到的是真實的狀況,因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了,到現在2024年還在講缺工。\n258866\t279940\t甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告提點就是缺工代表什麼代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到\n282102\t302039\t來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪\n303769\t329970\t到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則但目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來報告委員這個我們在\n330570\t345007\t整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端\n345567\t368841\t都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK。但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有說呢?權力指導原則我們其實有原理但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決\n370322\t399204\t所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則那原則他我們說不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講\n400164\t416556\t現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通是各說各話這是你講的現在各說各話的情況就是很多外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少\n417416\t442074\t當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊\n442654\t463633\t那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎?這個問題有時候就是說因為外送員多啦變成競爭這也是一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些消費者\n464974\t465814\t我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言\n485219\t507233\t你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出會之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣你們自立自強啊沒有委員我沒有講這樣不是嘛所以本期現在講的是有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少\n509996\t510879\t所以我們就是透過對話來要求\n516974\t544001\t我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天平的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天平傾向一邊\n545081\t565472\t變成是外送平台比較強勢外送員比較弱勢而外送員比較弱勢又沒有得到保障尤其是我們身為勞動部應該是勞工的一個靠山的時候那我不知道說還有什麼辦法那你又講說專法沒有辦法出來看起來現在也沒有專法那之前2022年承諾的說要勞動權益指導原則也沒有出來\n569205\t594284\t有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員、外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎有定多久\n596960\t623801\t有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給公會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多那外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了\n625202\t651309\t一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁\n654133\t678775\t這可以做得到吧?我們一般都是給工會啦!給工會啊!但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台跟外送員的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以!多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?\n680873\t690770\t一個禮拜好嗎?一個禮拜。我們要整理一下。勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋。\n","txt":"主席,謝謝。麻煩請許部長。請許部長。紅維好。部長好。即將卸任,媒體早上有請教你。你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題。缺工跟\n三年前就開始。\n2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有防務人員所以\n到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題,過去三年過去了,我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計?我們到底缺多少工?大概23、4萬左右啦。23、4萬。那過去這三年,我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少?\n報告委因為目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代\n的就我們的勞參率是其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎不是延長退休年齡不需要延長因為很多是我跟我說他是早退比如說很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後\n我們國內的這些\n是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做\n但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊\n所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加三十萬的勞動力進到職場來\n有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心,因為我們其實是雙管齊下。部長,我們希望看到的是真實的狀況,因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了,到現在2024年還在講缺工。\n甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告提點就是缺工代表什麼代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到\n來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪\n到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則但目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來報告委員這個我們在\n整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端\n都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK。但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有說呢?權力指導原則我們其實有原理但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決\n所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則那原則他我們說不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講\n現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通是各說各話這是你講的現在各說各話的情況就是很多外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少\n當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊\n那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎?這個問題有時候就是說因為外送員多啦變成競爭這也是一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些消費者\n我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言\n你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出會之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣你們自立自強啊沒有委員我沒有講這樣不是嘛所以本期現在講的是有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少\n所以我們就是透過對話來要求\n我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天平的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天平傾向一邊\n變成是外送平台比較強勢外送員比較弱勢而外送員比較弱勢又沒有得到保障尤其是我們身為勞動部應該是勞工的一個靠山的時候那我不知道說還有什麼辦法那你又講說專法沒有辦法出來看起來現在也沒有專法那之前2022年承諾的說要勞動權益指導原則也沒有出來\n有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員、外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎有定多久\n有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給公會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多那外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了\n一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁\n這可以做得到吧?我們一般都是給工會啦!給工會啊!但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台跟外送員的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以!多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?\n一個禮拜好嗎?一個禮拜。我們要整理一下。勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.471 --> 00:24.436\n主席,謝謝。麻煩請許部長。請許部長。紅維好。部長好。即將卸任,媒體早上有請教你。你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題。缺工跟\n\n00:25.424 --> 00:25.664\n三年前就開始。\n\n00:51.533 --> 01:14.134\n2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有防務人員所以\n\n01:15.953 --> 01:37.424\n到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題,過去三年過去了,我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計?我們到底缺多少工?大概23、4萬左右啦。23、4萬。那過去這三年,我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少?\n\n01:38.044 --> 01:56.020\n報告委因為目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代\n\n01:58.522 --> 02:22.657\n的就我們的勞參率是其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎不是延長退休年齡不需要延長因為很多是我跟我說他是早退比如說很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後\n\n02:25.000 --> 02:25.380\n我們國內的這些\n\n02:49.921 --> 02:55.986\n是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做\n\n03:17.725 --> 03:41.245\n但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊\n\n03:43.206 --> 03:53.451\n所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加三十萬的勞動力進到職場來\n\n03:59.375 --> 04:16.825\n有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心,因為我們其實是雙管齊下。部長,我們希望看到的是真實的狀況,因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了,到現在2024年還在講缺工。\n\n04:18.866 --> 04:39.940\n甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告提點就是缺工代表什麼代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到\n\n04:42.102 --> 05:02.039\n來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪\n\n05:03.769 --> 05:29.970\n到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則但目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來報告委員這個我們在\n\n05:30.570 --> 05:45.007\n整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端\n\n05:45.567 --> 06:08.841\n都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK。但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有說呢?權力指導原則我們其實有原理但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決\n\n06:10.322 --> 06:39.204\n所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則那原則他我們說不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講\n\n06:40.164 --> 06:56.556\n現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通是各說各話這是你講的現在各說各話的情況就是很多外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少\n\n06:57.416 --> 07:22.074\n當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊\n\n07:22.654 --> 07:43.633\n那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎?這個問題有時候就是說因為外送員多啦變成競爭這也是一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些消費者\n\n07:44.974 --> 07:45.814\n我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言\n\n08:05.219 --> 08:27.233\n你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出會之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣你們自立自強啊沒有委員我沒有講這樣不是嘛所以本期現在講的是有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少\n\n08:29.996 --> 08:30.879\n所以我們就是透過對話來要求\n\n08:36.974 --> 09:04.001\n我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天平的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天平傾向一邊\n\n09:05.081 --> 09:25.472\n變成是外送平台比較強勢外送員比較弱勢而外送員比較弱勢又沒有得到保障尤其是我們身為勞動部應該是勞工的一個靠山的時候那我不知道說還有什麼辦法那你又講說專法沒有辦法出來看起來現在也沒有專法那之前2022年承諾的說要勞動權益指導原則也沒有出來\n\n09:29.205 --> 09:54.284\n有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員、外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎有定多久\n\n09:56.960 --> 10:23.801\n有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給公會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多那外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了\n\n10:25.202 --> 10:51.309\n一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁\n\n10:54.133 --> 11:18.775\n這可以做得到吧?我們一般都是給工會啦!給工會啊!但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台跟外送員的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以!多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?\n\n11:20.873 --> 11:30.770\n一個禮拜好嗎?一個禮拜。我們要整理一下。勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋。\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.471,"end":24.436,"text":"主席,謝謝。麻煩請許部長。請許部長。紅維好。部長好。即將卸任,媒體早上有請教你。你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題。缺工跟"},{"start":25.424,"end":25.664,"text":"三年前就開始。"},{"start":51.533,"end":74.134,"text":"2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有防務人員所以"},{"start":75.953,"end":97.424,"text":"到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題,過去三年過去了,我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計?我們到底缺多少工?大概23、4萬左右啦。23、4萬。那過去這三年,我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少?"},{"start":98.044,"end":116.02,"text":"報告委因為目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代"},{"start":118.522,"end":142.657,"text":"的就我們的勞參率是其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎不是延長退休年齡不需要延長因為很多是我跟我說他是早退比如說很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後"},{"start":145,"end":145.38,"text":"我們國內的這些"},{"start":169.921,"end":175.986,"text":"是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做"},{"start":197.725,"end":221.245,"text":"但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊"},{"start":223.206,"end":233.451,"text":"所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加三十萬的勞動力進到職場來"},{"start":239.375,"end":256.825,"text":"有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心,因為我們其實是雙管齊下。部長,我們希望看到的是真實的狀況,因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了,到現在2024年還在講缺工。"},{"start":258.866,"end":279.94,"text":"甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告提點就是缺工代表什麼代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到"},{"start":282.102,"end":302.039,"text":"來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪"},{"start":303.769,"end":329.97,"text":"到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則但目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來報告委員這個我們在"},{"start":330.57,"end":345.007,"text":"整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端"},{"start":345.567,"end":368.841,"text":"都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK。但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有說呢?權力指導原則我們其實有原理但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決"},{"start":370.322,"end":399.204,"text":"所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則那原則他我們說不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講"},{"start":400.164,"end":416.556,"text":"現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通是各說各話這是你講的現在各說各話的情況就是很多外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少"},{"start":417.416,"end":442.074,"text":"當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊"},{"start":442.654,"end":463.633,"text":"那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎?這個問題有時候就是說因為外送員多啦變成競爭這也是一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些消費者"},{"start":464.974,"end":465.814,"text":"我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言"},{"start":485.219,"end":507.233,"text":"你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出會之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣你們自立自強啊沒有委員我沒有講這樣不是嘛所以本期現在講的是有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少"},{"start":509.996,"end":510.879,"text":"所以我們就是透過對話來要求"},{"start":516.974,"end":544.001,"text":"我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天平的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天平傾向一邊"},{"start":545.081,"end":565.472,"text":"變成是外送平台比較強勢外送員比較弱勢而外送員比較弱勢又沒有得到保障尤其是我們身為勞動部應該是勞工的一個靠山的時候那我不知道說還有什麼辦法那你又講說專法沒有辦法出來看起來現在也沒有專法那之前2022年承諾的說要勞動權益指導原則也沒有出來"},{"start":569.205,"end":594.284,"text":"有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員、外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎有定多久"},{"start":596.96,"end":623.801,"text":"有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給公會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多那外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了"},{"start":625.202,"end":651.309,"text":"一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁"},{"start":654.133,"end":678.775,"text":"這可以做得到吧?我們一般都是給工會啦!給工會啊!但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台跟外送員的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以!多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?"},{"start":680.873,"end":690.77,"text":"一個禮拜好嗎?一個禮拜。我們要整理一下。勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋。"}]}}}}