{"id":151773,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15a445e28122fa8180c97d93183120460da707006be54a7e2b0d1eb0eeb46feded5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:07:24 - 11:25:26","影片長度":"00:18:02","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":1082,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:25:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:07:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時7分）主席、各位，大家午安，是不是請許部長？"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。就業服務法第一條明文規定、開宗明義宣示是為了促進國民就業，以增進社會及經濟發展。我們知道那個時代的時空背景，30年前我們開放外勞的時候，對於引進外籍移工，希望做產業結構上的調整，因為怕受到衝擊，所以當然要有就業輔導、就業促進這樣的一個機制，當時的時空背景是這樣產出的，可是外籍移工到現在人數已經來到7、80萬人……"],["許部長銘春：75萬。"],["林委員淑芬：對，75萬。在這種狀況下，我們的確要好好檢視上路30年的就業服務法有什麼結構性的問題要處理。我們先從現行的法律來看，第一個，雖然是就服法，但內容卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多，大概有22個條文，排除了總則和罰則以外，管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理有22條，公私立就業服務機構的設置和管理有17條，就是為了管理外籍移工所設的仲介機構，但是促進就業、就業促進的篇幅在裡面反而是最少的，只有13條，所以一般外界都認為就服法就等同於跨國勞動力的管理法，而對於就業促進的著墨太少。另一方面，我們說這雖然是跨國勞動力的管理法，但有關外國勞動力的部分，一直有很多衍生性的問題，包括就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題，然後也遭到移工團體抨擊這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案，所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視就服法翻修的歷程。","你看整部法律到底是什麼？在修法的程序裡面，還是以外國人聘僱和管理這部分的修法次數最多，三十年來高達十六次的修法，但是就業促進的修法只有五次，弱勢就業的修法三次，將二度就業婦女等六類人員納為特定對象，也就是弱勢就業，這三次是為了納入弱勢就業，但是禁止就業歧視的部分也修了四次，禁止就業歧視就是擴大就業歧視所禁止的範圍。我們要問部長的是，這整個法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法意旨──我們要促進就業？在立法的體系上，你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能？大家今天問了很多次，有沒有討論到或有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟外國勞動力脫鉤、兩個法就直接分開？因為兩件事情的確分屬不同領域，而且以跨國勞動力的管理來講，真的是很複雜，也很需要很多的大幅修正。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我的確覺得就整部就業服務法來看，本、外國勞工的規範的確是失衡，再加上現在的移工人數越來越多，我是認為未來跨國勞動力管理的規範，事實上可以朝向專法的方式讓它脫鉤來處理會比較好。"],["林委員淑芬：脫鉤、專法、單獨立法。"],["許部長銘春：對，經過這三十年的演變，不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工，我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃，各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定。"],["林委員淑芬：是，但我今天是說在強化促進就業的角色和功能裡面，就這十三條而言，其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣，這裡面有十三條條文，主要是第二十三條針對減班、休息、僱傭、安定措施，還有第二十四條的弱勢就業對象訂出了他的就業計畫，發給津貼和補助金，但是我現在要跟你分享，第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身分去分類，這樣子的就業促進政策和對策，到底是不是妥當的？現在就是以獨立負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身分，然後看他是否仍然具備高就業力，問題是就身分別去給他擬定計畫，然後發給津貼，這樣是不是恰當？因為針對促進就業，可能更需要檢視的指標是失業的衝擊對於失業的個人、失業時間的長短、失業期間，是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要？你失業多久了，我要給你多少的量身定製讓你有促進就業的計畫，我的津貼要怎麼給付，而不是說你是什麼身分。所以失業期間到底是三個月的，還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上，我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施。","第二個是就業促進的職業訓練津貼，你們的職業訓練津貼也是以身分區別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的，以此做為請領的年限，只有身心障礙者可以高達最長一年的請領職業訓練生活津貼，其他身分別大概是六個月。我今天要討論的是，以身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼，到底是不是最妥當的？光是以身分別來看，每個人都只能領六個月，身心障礙者可以領到十二個月，到底六個月和十二個月的標準差異在哪裡？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身分別去考量，可能是針對不同的屬性，針對他的需求去做一些規範，但我覺得剛剛您講的也是有道理，我覺得未來這個部分我們會再重新檢視，在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的盤點以後……"],["林委員淑芬：應該要了，三十年了，當然這個修法沒那麼久，但是我們也擔心用身分別去保障促進就業的津貼，恐怕也會排除了真正需要的勞工，為什麼呢？因為以身分別會排除的例子，就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫，這個裡面看起來好像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女，但是現在社會很多元啦，一個單親家庭的父親，他因為照顧家庭，或者說即便是雙親，現在也流行是爸爸在家照顧小孩的也有，就是男性因為照顧家庭而中斷職涯，他就沒有納在這裡面，他就沒有辦法請領你們的這一個津貼了。我們看到你們鑑於弱勢的就業對象多元，雖然母法沒有明列，但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定，依照身分別去給人家促進就業的協助。可是我剛剛講的那個例子，你就排除了真正需要的。以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業補助作業要點，在這個裡面你們還不斷地在擴充，甚至擴充到施用毒品者、脆弱家庭、危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口販運被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等，其實那些都已經不在母法第二十四條所列舉的身分裡面了，即使沒有母法的依據，你們還是不斷地用你們的辦法在擴充，當然也不是說不可以，但我們要講的是你也要於法有據啊，用身分別的問題是不是已經可以檢討了？而你們在補助要點裡面還在擴充，在這種狀況之下，真的是要檢討了，整部法三十年了，要好好的檢討了。","我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是跨國勞動力管理的問題，一直在講就業跟人權，外國勞動力單獨立法你剛剛說也是一個時機，你應該也支持嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策，要從就服法裡面抽離單獨立法，但是就我們目前既有的法律裡面，還是有很多人家認為直接歧視的條款，比如家事勞動欠缺勞動條件保障，移工被排除部分的社會保障，以及僱用型態所衍生的風險和人權侵害，移工的管理制度遭非營利組織詬病涉及人口販運，未來你們有一個部分要修正，就是針對第四十一條有一個修法，你們要加重罰責，改採每個人頭罰款的方式。"],["許部長銘春：非法僱用、非法仲介。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那你們要去強化雇主和私立就業服務機構的管理責任，但第四十一條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司，是國外的嘛！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，是國內。就是我們國內的雇主要非法聘用這些失聯移工或國內的仲介公司……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，你們是要納管，我現在講的是法案還在院裡面……"],["許部長銘春：對，還在行政院。"],["林委員淑芬：還沒有出來。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管，這件事你們是列入了考慮嘛！但我們現在講的是，現行管理國內仲介，你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情事，然後你們現在講說對於改革上，還要再納入國外人力仲介公司的納管……"],["許部長銘春：沒有，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼會沒有？你們要修第四十一條之一啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們那個不是針對本國的嗎？針對本國仲介。"],["林委員淑芬：本國仲介？但是本國仲介以外，你們也要納管國外仲介啊！"],["許部長銘春：針對國外仲介是針對失聯的部分，如果是針對失聯率，我們未來就是在雙邊的談判裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在有一條要納管……"],["許部長銘春：那個不是……"],["林委員淑芬：好，我現在就跟你講，其實我之前跟你講21世紀貿易倡議，還有現在歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格地把關以外，還有一個RBA的稽核，你知道RBA稽核的概念？"],["許部長銘春：我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：RBA他們要採取的是，尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準，確保勞工得到善待，是最高的喔！所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟已經跑在我們整個國家或國際規範的最前面了，而我們在這種時間，時機也已經到了，到了一個我們對於勞工環境的議題，所以媒體已經有披露說臺灣也將要禁止強迫勞動商品輸入，行政院初步決議，要由內政部修人口販運法，禁止強迫勞動產品輸入，而且這個強迫勞動產品要由勞動部去認定、海關去執行，那請問你，你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定？你們要怎麼認定？"],["許部長銘春：行政院都還在……就是說大概大原則是這樣，後續還有一些討論啦！"],["林委員淑芬：討論很多次了，新聞都露出了，我國擬跟進禁止強迫勞動產品進出口。所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情，我們看到禁止強迫勞動產品輸入，可是我們也有輸出的風險，我們也有一些風險，所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的輸入裡面要國對國的引進，印度移工國對國的引進，可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了，印度移工的直聘，國對國的直聘有這麼難嗎？你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下，雙方推動國對國聘僱，請問這個到底是國對國聘僱，還是現有制度裡面的仲介引入這個路徑也可以？到底是單軌還是雙軌？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在現行的還是……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講的是我們MOU簽訂的內容。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們未來在工作層級會議裡面，我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先。"],["林委員淑芬：作為優先？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下，現有是雙軌了嘛！"],["許部長銘春：雙軌，對。"],["林委員淑芬：但是你們下面又寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱，所以是有優先？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：因為我們知道說……為什麼講RBA還有國際市場的要求，還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出，我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣，所以才有我們電子產品的半導體廠商，他們已經要用零付費的方式去買工了嘛！就是去引進，所以有企業的需求，整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這個印度引進模式裡面，真的要好好地單軌、國對國的模式去聘僱，這是最好的契機，也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求，而且你知道經濟部已經定了一個臺灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引，你知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我有這個印象。"],["林委員淑芬：經濟部已經定了一個臺灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引，如果它再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法，有人在講說你們應該定出供應鏈責任法，要人權責任法，所以這個就是代表說你對移工的政策也到了一個很大的進展是需要勇敢地邁向政府要扛起責任的時代，否則的話，再用那種雙軌，然後再交給仲介，我想我們的企業會失去競爭力，甚至會遭受到抵制。我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入，講的是新疆棉，可是未來整個RBA的檢視，它告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或涉及到強迫勞動，這對我們國家企業的形象傷害很大的時候，我們產品輸出也是有可能會產生問題，刻不容緩，已經是要國對國引進的時代了，剛好就業服務法裡面，我們也認為促進國民就業跟跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤，要變成兩部法，要單獨專法了。雖然你要離開了，不過我們也是希望你可以反映，讓政策延續下去。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。現在作以下宣告：等一下在洪孟楷委員質詢完畢處理臨時提案一案。","現在請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra 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\"但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"但\", \"start\": 188.493, \"end\": 188.793, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 188.793, \"end\": 188.953, \"score\": 0.913}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 188.953, \"end\": 189.233, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"禁\", \"start\": 189.233, \"end\": 189.513, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"止\", \"start\": 189.513, \"end\": 189.653, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 189.653, \"end\": 189.993, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"歧\", \"start\": 189.993, \"end\": 190.354, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"視\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 190.354, \"end\": 190.474, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 190.474, \"end\": 190.654, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 190.654, \"end\": 190.874, \"score\": 0.865}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 190.874, \"end\": 191.374, \"score\": 0.934}, 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\"end\": 214.48, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 214.48, \"end\": 214.6, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"何\", \"start\": 214.6, \"end\": 215.06, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"強\"}, {\"word\": \"化\", \"start\": 215.06, \"end\": 215.28, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"促\", \"start\": 215.28, \"end\": 215.56, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"進\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 215.56, \"end\": 215.881, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 215.881, \"end\": 216.021, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"角\", \"start\": 216.021, \"end\": 216.261, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"色\", \"start\": 216.261, \"end\": 216.401, \"score\": 0.873}, {\"word\": \"和\", \"start\": 216.401, \"end\": 216.661, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"功\", \"start\": 216.661, \"end\": 216.861, \"score\": 0.976}, {\"word\": \"能\", \"start\": 216.861, \"end\": 216.881, \"score\": 0.994}]}, {\"start\": 217.461, \"end\": 224.304, \"text\": \"那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 217.461, \"end\": 217.981, \"score\": 0.831}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 217.981, \"end\": 218.221, \"score\": 0.775}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 218.221, \"end\": 218.422, \"score\": 0.837}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 218.422, \"end\": 218.562, \"score\": 0.663}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 218.562, \"end\": 218.882, \"score\": 0.685}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 218.882, \"end\": 219.002, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 219.002, \"end\": 219.142, \"score\": 0.575}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 219.142, \"end\": 219.322, \"score\": 0.726}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 219.322, \"end\": 219.962, \"score\": 0.783}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 219.962, \"end\": 220.202, \"score\": 0.535}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 220.202, \"end\": 220.222, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"沒\", 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221.123, \"end\": 221.243, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"動\"}, {\"word\": \"力\", \"start\": 221.243, \"end\": 221.263, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"脫\"}, {\"word\": \"鉤\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 221.263, \"end\": 221.283, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 221.283, \"end\": 221.303, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 221.303, \"end\": 221.343, \"score\": 0.012}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 221.343, \"end\": 221.363, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 221.363, \"end\": 221.663, \"score\": 0.824}, {\"word\": \"開\"}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 221.663, \"end\": 221.783, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 221.783, \"end\": 221.803, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 221.803, \"end\": 221.823, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"情\", \"start\": 221.823, \"end\": 221.843, 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\"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 224.004, \"end\": 224.024, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"很\", \"start\": 224.024, \"end\": 224.044, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 224.044, \"end\": 224.064, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 224.064, \"end\": 224.084, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"修\", \"start\": 224.084, \"end\": 224.104, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 224.104, \"end\": 224.284, \"score\": 0.774}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}, {\"word\": \"子\", \"start\": 224.284, \"end\": 224.304, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 242.694, \"end\": 264.691, \"text\": \"報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的外這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的方式讓他脫鉤來處理\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 242.694, \"end\": 242.914, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 242.914, \"end\": 243.255, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 243.255, \"end\": 243.935, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 243.935, \"end\": 244.075, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"確\"}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 244.075, \"end\": 244.596, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 244.596, \"end\": 244.796, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 244.796, \"end\": 245.016, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 245.016, \"end\": 245.696, \"score\": 0.959}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 245.696, \"end\": 245.957, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"業\"}, {\"word\": \"服\", \"start\": 245.957, \"end\": 246.157, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"務\"}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 246.157, \"end\": 246.517, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 246.517, \"end\": 247.118, \"score\": 0.966}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 247.118, \"end\": 247.418, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 247.418, \"end\": 248.198, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", 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\"的\", \"start\": 252.342, \"end\": 252.562, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 252.562, \"end\": 253.402, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"移\", \"start\": 253.402, \"end\": 253.563, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 253.563, \"end\": 253.743, \"score\": 0.91}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 253.743, \"end\": 254.463, \"score\": 0.932}, {\"word\": \"數\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 254.463, \"end\": 254.744, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"越\", \"start\": 254.744, \"end\": 254.984, \"score\": 0.971}, {\"word\": \"多\", \"start\": 254.984, \"end\": 255.544, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 255.544, \"end\": 255.924, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 255.924, \"end\": 256.965, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"未\", \"start\": 256.965, \"end\": 258.587, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": 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0.75}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 1075.231, \"end\": 1075.371, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"映\", \"start\": 1075.371, \"end\": 1075.832, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 1075.832, \"end\": 1076.032, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"策\", \"start\": 1076.032, \"end\": 1076.192, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"延\", \"start\": 1076.192, \"end\": 1076.533, \"score\": 0.841}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 1076.533, \"end\": 1076.753, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 1076.753, \"end\": 1076.974, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 1076.974, \"end\": 1078.476, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1078.476, \"end\": 1080.039, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 1080.039, \"end\": 1080.76, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 1080.76, \"end\": 1080.96, \"score\": 0.989}, {\"word\": \"淑\", \"start\": 1080.96, \"end\": 1081.161, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"芬\", \"start\": 1081.161, \"end\": 1081.341, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 1081.341, \"end\": 1081.361, \"score\": 0.09}, {\"word\": \"員\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:14,134\n主席,各位大家午安。是不是還請我們許部長?請許部長\n\n2\n00:00:18,757 --> 00:00:36,790\n林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景三十年前我們開放外勞的時候\n\n3\n00:00:37,711 --> 00:00:54,448\n對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在\n\n4\n00:00:55,649 --> 00:01:22,810\n人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬、七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從它的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文\n\n5\n00:01:25,152 --> 00:01:54,134\n排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理但是以促進就業就業促進的偏扶反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於\n\n6\n00:01:54,654 --> 00:02:12,649\n跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分\n\n7\n00:02:13,129 --> 00:02:35,035\n一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼\n\n8\n00:02:35,495 --> 00:02:58,842\n在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘顧案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次然後弱勢就業的修法3次然後兩度二度就業婦女的這一種6類人員那\n\n9\n00:03:01,647 --> 00:03:04,938\n納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個這個弱勢就業\n\n10\n00:03:08,493 --> 00:03:36,881\n但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能\n\n11\n00:03:37,461 --> 00:03:44,304\n那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子\n\n12\n00:04:02,694 --> 00:04:24,691\n報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的外這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的方式讓他脫鉤來處理\n\n13\n00:04:28,554 --> 00:04:42,405\n對,那我們也可以再做,經過這30年的演變可能各自不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定\n\n14\n00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,083\n是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢\n\n15\n00:05:02,636 --> 00:05:20,037\n檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類\n\n16\n00:05:21,758 --> 00:05:42,064\n這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業率然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份\n\n17\n00:05:45,485 --> 00:05:58,329\n就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要\n\n18\n00:06:09,813 --> 00:06:25,764\n你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施\n\n19\n00:06:28,146 --> 00:06:56,305\n那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的\n\n20\n00:06:58,266 --> 00:07:09,663\n那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊\n\n21\n00:07:12,034 --> 00:07:32,255\n對報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的\n\n22\n00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:58,529\n也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫\n\n23\n00:07:59,870 --> 00:08:17,995\n你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啦又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是\n\n24\n00:08:22,056 --> 00:08:24,179\n所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元\n\n25\n00:08:41,440 --> 00:09:01,680\n而雖然母法沒有名列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業\n\n26\n00:09:03,221 --> 00:09:29,907\n補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不\n\n27\n00:09:31,447 --> 00:09:49,793\n但是我們在講是你也要依法有據啊用身分別的問題是不是最好的已經是到可以檢討了而你們在這個補助要點裡面還在擴充所以在這種狀況裡面真的是要整部法三十年了要好好的檢討了\n\n28\n00:09:51,013 --> 00:10:09,188\n但是呢我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是\n\n29\n00:10:11,243 --> 00:10:28,785\n但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款\n\n30\n00:10:29,946 --> 00:10:53,565\n比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織購併涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個\n\n31\n00:10:55,226 --> 00:11:22,014\n第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內\n\n32\n00:11:23,294 --> 00:11:41,451\n就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?\n\n33\n00:11:43,237 --> 00:12:09,873\n但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介\n\n34\n00:12:13,131 --> 00:12:16,251\n對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊\n\n35\n00:12:16,874 --> 00:12:26,498\n我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念\n\n36\n00:12:43,965 --> 00:12:56,811\nRBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟\n\n37\n00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:20,369\n這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個\n\n38\n00:13:23,310 --> 00:13:40,821\n行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論\n\n39\n00:13:52,516 --> 00:14:09,490\n討論很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看來就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個\n\n40\n00:14:13,431 --> 00:14:30,048\n所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的這個輸入裡面要國對國的引進嘛印度移工國對國的引進可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了就是說\n\n41\n00:14:33,251 --> 00:14:55,169\n這個印度移工的職聘、國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以?到底是單軌還是雙軌?報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是\n\n42\n00:15:01,397 --> 00:15:18,933\n我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對雙軌對\n\n43\n00:15:20,074 --> 00:15:21,896\n但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是所以是有優先對因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出\n\n44\n00:15:37,128 --> 00:15:40,272\n我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦所以這有企業的需求不是我說\n\n45\n00:15:56,131 --> 00:16:17,139\n整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們\n\n46\n00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:26,993\n你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部\n\n47\n00:16:29,424 --> 00:16:58,331\n我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代了\n\n48\n00:16:59,110 --> 00:17:13,657\n否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動\n\n49\n00:17:27,865 --> 00:17:47,963\n這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國營就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦\n\n50\n00:17:53,167 --> 00:18:01,361\n所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n109\t14134\t主席,各位大家午安。是不是還請我們許部長?請許部長\n18757\t36790\t林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景三十年前我們開放外勞的時候\n37711\t54448\t對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在\n55649\t82810\t人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬、七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從它的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文\n85152\t114134\t排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理但是以促進就業就業促進的偏扶反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於\n114654\t132649\t跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分\n133129\t155035\t一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼\n155495\t178842\t在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘顧案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次然後弱勢就業的修法3次然後兩度二度就業婦女的這一種6類人員那\n181647\t184938\t納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個這個弱勢就業\n188493\t216881\t但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能\n217461\t224304\t那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子\n242694\t264691\t報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的外這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的方式讓他脫鉤來處理\n268554\t282405\t對,那我們也可以再做,經過這30年的演變可能各自不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定\n283880\t287083\t是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢\n302636\t320037\t檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類\n321758\t342064\t這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業率然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份\n345485\t358329\t就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要\n369813\t385764\t你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施\n388146\t416305\t那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的\n418266\t429663\t那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊\n432034\t452255\t對報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的\n453036\t478529\t也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫\n479870\t497995\t你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啦又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是\n502056\t504179\t所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元\n521440\t541680\t而雖然母法沒有名列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業\n543221\t569907\t補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不\n571447\t589793\t但是我們在講是你也要依法有據啊用身分別的問題是不是最好的已經是到可以檢討了而你們在這個補助要點裡面還在擴充所以在這種狀況裡面真的是要整部法三十年了要好好的檢討了\n591013\t609188\t但是呢我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是\n611243\t628785\t但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款\n629946\t653565\t比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織購併涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個\n655226\t682014\t第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內\n683294\t701451\t就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?\n703237\t729873\t但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介\n733131\t736251\t對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊\n736874\t746498\t我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念\n763965\t776811\tRBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟\n780840\t800369\t這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個\n803310\t820821\t行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論\n832516\t849490\t討論很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看來就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個\n853431\t870048\t所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的這個輸入裡面要國對國的引進嘛印度移工國對國的引進可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了就是說\n873251\t895169\t這個印度移工的職聘、國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以?到底是單軌還是雙軌?報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是\n901397\t918933\t我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對 我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對 雙軌 對\n920074\t921896\t但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是所以是有優先對因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出\n937128\t940272\t我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦所以這有企業的需求不是我說\n956131\t977139\t整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們\n978519\t986993\t你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部\n989424\t1018331\t我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代了\n1019110\t1033657\t否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動\n1047865\t1067963\t這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國營就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦\n1073167\t1081361\t所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員\n","txt":"主席,各位大家午安。是不是還請我們許部長?請許部長\n林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景三十年前我們開放外勞的時候\n對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在\n人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬、七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從它的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文\n排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理但是以促進就業就業促進的偏扶反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於\n跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分\n一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼\n在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘顧案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次然後弱勢就業的修法3次然後兩度二度就業婦女的這一種6類人員那\n納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個這個弱勢就業\n但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能\n那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子\n報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的外這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的方式讓他脫鉤來處理\n對,那我們也可以再做,經過這30年的演變可能各自不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定\n是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢\n檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類\n這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業率然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份\n就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要\n你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施\n那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的\n那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊\n對報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的\n也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫\n你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啦又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是\n所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元\n而雖然母法沒有名列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業\n補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不\n但是我們在講是你也要依法有據啊用身分別的問題是不是最好的已經是到可以檢討了而你們在這個補助要點裡面還在擴充所以在這種狀況裡面真的是要整部法三十年了要好好的檢討了\n但是呢我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是\n但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款\n比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織購併涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個\n第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內\n就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?\n但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介\n對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊\n我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念\nRBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟\n這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個\n行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論\n討論很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看來就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個\n所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的這個輸入裡面要國對國的引進嘛印度移工國對國的引進可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了就是說\n這個印度移工的職聘、國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以?到底是單軌還是雙軌?報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是\n我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對 我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對 雙軌 對\n但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是所以是有優先對因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出\n我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦所以這有企業的需求不是我說\n整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們\n你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部\n我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代了\n否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動\n這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國營就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦\n所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.109 --> 00:14.134\n主席,各位大家午安。是不是還請我們許部長?請許部長\n\n00:18.757 --> 00:36.790\n林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景三十年前我們開放外勞的時候\n\n00:37.711 --> 00:54.448\n對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在\n\n00:55.649 --> 01:22.810\n人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬、七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從它的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文\n\n01:25.152 --> 01:54.134\n排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理但是以促進就業就業促進的偏扶反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於\n\n01:54.654 --> 02:12.649\n跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分\n\n02:13.129 --> 02:35.035\n一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼\n\n02:35.495 --> 02:58.842\n在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘顧案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次然後弱勢就業的修法3次然後兩度二度就業婦女的這一種6類人員那\n\n03:01.647 --> 03:04.938\n納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個這個弱勢就業\n\n03:08.493 --> 03:36.881\n但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能\n\n03:37.461 --> 03:44.304\n那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子\n\n04:02.694 --> 04:24.691\n報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的外這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的方式讓他脫鉤來處理\n\n04:28.554 --> 04:42.405\n對,那我們也可以再做,經過這30年的演變可能各自不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定\n\n04:43.880 --> 04:47.083\n是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢\n\n05:02.636 --> 05:20.037\n檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類\n\n05:21.758 --> 05:42.064\n這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業率然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份\n\n05:45.485 --> 05:58.329\n就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要\n\n06:09.813 --> 06:25.764\n你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施\n\n06:28.146 --> 06:56.305\n那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的\n\n06:58.266 --> 07:09.663\n那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊\n\n07:12.034 --> 07:32.255\n對報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的\n\n07:33.036 --> 07:58.529\n也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫\n\n07:59.870 --> 08:17.995\n你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啦又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是\n\n08:22.056 --> 08:24.179\n所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元\n\n08:41.440 --> 09:01.680\n而雖然母法沒有名列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業\n\n09:03.221 --> 09:29.907\n補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不\n\n09:31.447 --> 09:49.793\n但是我們在講是你也要依法有據啊用身分別的問題是不是最好的已經是到可以檢討了而你們在這個補助要點裡面還在擴充所以在這種狀況裡面真的是要整部法三十年了要好好的檢討了\n\n09:51.013 --> 10:09.188\n但是呢我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是\n\n10:11.243 --> 10:28.785\n但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款\n\n10:29.946 --> 10:53.565\n比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織購併涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個\n\n10:55.226 --> 11:22.014\n第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內\n\n11:23.294 --> 11:41.451\n就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?\n\n11:43.237 --> 12:09.873\n但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介\n\n12:13.131 --> 12:16.251\n對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊\n\n12:16.874 --> 12:26.498\n我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念\n\n12:43.965 --> 12:56.811\nRBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟\n\n13:00.840 --> 13:20.369\n這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個\n\n13:23.310 --> 13:40.821\n行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論\n\n13:52.516 --> 14:09.490\n討論很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看來就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個\n\n14:13.431 --> 14:30.048\n所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的這個輸入裡面要國對國的引進嘛印度移工國對國的引進可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了就是說\n\n14:33.251 --> 14:55.169\n這個印度移工的職聘、國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以?到底是單軌還是雙軌?報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是\n\n15:01.397 --> 15:18.933\n我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對雙軌對\n\n15:20.074 --> 15:21.896\n但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是所以是有優先對因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出\n\n15:37.128 --> 15:40.272\n我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦所以這有企業的需求不是我說\n\n15:56.131 --> 16:17.139\n整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們\n\n16:18.519 --> 16:26.993\n你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部\n\n16:29.424 --> 16:58.331\n我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代了\n\n16:59.110 --> 17:13.657\n否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動\n\n17:27.865 --> 17:47.963\n這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國營就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦\n\n17:53.167 --> 18:01.361\n所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.109,"end":14.134,"text":"主席,各位大家午安。是不是還請我們許部長?請許部長"},{"start":18.757,"end":36.79,"text":"林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景三十年前我們開放外勞的時候"},{"start":37.711,"end":54.448,"text":"對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在"},{"start":55.649,"end":82.81,"text":"人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬、七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從它的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文"},{"start":85.152,"end":114.134,"text":"排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理但是以促進就業就業促進的偏扶反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於"},{"start":114.654,"end":132.649,"text":"跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分"},{"start":133.129,"end":155.035,"text":"一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼"},{"start":155.495,"end":178.842,"text":"在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘顧案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次然後弱勢就業的修法3次然後兩度二度就業婦女的這一種6類人員那"},{"start":181.647,"end":184.938,"text":"納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個這個弱勢就業"},{"start":188.493,"end":216.881,"text":"但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能"},{"start":217.461,"end":224.304,"text":"那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子"},{"start":242.694,"end":264.691,"text":"報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的外這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的方式讓他脫鉤來處理"},{"start":268.554,"end":282.405,"text":"對,那我們也可以再做,經過這30年的演變可能各自不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定"},{"start":283.88,"end":287.083,"text":"是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢"},{"start":302.636,"end":320.037,"text":"檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類"},{"start":321.758,"end":342.064,"text":"這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業率然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份"},{"start":345.485,"end":358.329,"text":"就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要"},{"start":369.813,"end":385.764,"text":"你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施"},{"start":388.146,"end":416.305,"text":"那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的"},{"start":418.266,"end":429.663,"text":"那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊"},{"start":432.034,"end":452.255,"text":"對報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的"},{"start":453.036,"end":478.529,"text":"也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫"},{"start":479.87,"end":497.995,"text":"你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啦又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是"},{"start":502.056,"end":504.179,"text":"所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元"},{"start":521.44,"end":541.68,"text":"而雖然母法沒有名列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業"},{"start":543.221,"end":569.907,"text":"補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不"},{"start":571.447,"end":589.793,"text":"但是我們在講是你也要依法有據啊用身分別的問題是不是最好的已經是到可以檢討了而你們在這個補助要點裡面還在擴充所以在這種狀況裡面真的是要整部法三十年了要好好的檢討了"},{"start":591.013,"end":609.188,"text":"但是呢我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是"},{"start":611.243,"end":628.785,"text":"但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款"},{"start":629.946,"end":653.565,"text":"比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織購併涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個"},{"start":655.226,"end":682.014,"text":"第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內"},{"start":683.294,"end":701.451,"text":"就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?"},{"start":703.237,"end":729.873,"text":"但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介"},{"start":733.131,"end":736.251,"text":"對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊"},{"start":736.874,"end":746.498,"text":"我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念"},{"start":763.965,"end":776.811,"text":"RBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟"},{"start":780.84,"end":800.369,"text":"這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個"},{"start":803.31,"end":820.821,"text":"行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論"},{"start":832.516,"end":849.49,"text":"討論很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看來就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個"},{"start":853.431,"end":870.048,"text":"所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的這個輸入裡面要國對國的引進嘛印度移工國對國的引進可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了就是說"},{"start":873.251,"end":895.169,"text":"這個印度移工的職聘、國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以?到底是單軌還是雙軌?報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是"},{"start":901.397,"end":918.933,"text":"我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對 我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對 雙軌 對"},{"start":920.074,"end":921.896,"text":"但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是所以是有優先對因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出"},{"start":937.128,"end":940.272,"text":"我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦所以這有企業的需求不是我說"},{"start":956.131,"end":977.139,"text":"整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們"},{"start":978.519,"end":986.993,"text":"你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部"},{"start":989.424,"end":1018.331,"text":"我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代了"},{"start":1019.11,"end":1033.657,"text":"否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動"},{"start":1047.865,"end":1067.963,"text":"這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國營就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦"},{"start":1073.167,"end":1081.361,"text":"所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}}}}