{"id":151814,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6f6751abcd6fd56d112d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eeeccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:47:37 - 09:56:58","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-18"},"duration":561,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:56:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:47:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":287,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時47分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長和官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請監察院李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好，請教秘書長，就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解，還有依大法官的解釋，在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會？"],["李秘書長俊俋：現在已經不是了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說在憲法本文的規定當中。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，本文是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那麼是什麼時候變成不是國會的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：1992年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在1992年修憲之後？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在修憲之後，我們將監察委員就變成了一開始是由國民大會，然後再變成是立法院來行使同意權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格，如果它是國會的話？"],["李秘書長俊俋：它是國會，當然是有政治……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以它也擁有國會的調查權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那當它變成不是國會的時候，修憲做了什麼事情？增修條文是不是把它說成要獨立行使職權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前在憲政機關當中，明文規定必須獨立行使職權的有哪些？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院跟考試院，還有司法院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：考試院好像沒有。"],["李秘書長俊俋：有，考試院還是要獨立行使職權。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們在增修條文裡面沒有寫到啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有寫到考試委員，因為考試權的考試用人有很強烈的行政權的屬性。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以原來屬於國會權的監察權後來在被剝奪了國會身分之後，它就不再具有國會身分，它的調查權還是保留，但是對人員要求獨立行使職權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，這是釋字第325號的解釋。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是考試院的部分有很強烈的考試用人的身分……"],["李秘書長俊俋：它是考試行政。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是增修條文沒有要求它要獨立行使職權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以監察院的提名當中，在過去我們看到了，你覺得民眾是不是還記得王建先生當過監委、當過院長？"],["李秘書長俊俋：他是第4屆的院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那民眾是不是也瞭解張博雅女士擔任過監察院的院長？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第5屆的院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問他們當時在被提名的時候，剛剛在前面講過了，他是根據哪一款被提名的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：王建是依照第一款，他是立法委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他當過立法委員，那張博雅院長呢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：張博雅女士是依照第六款，她就是富政治經驗。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問監察院在他們兩位被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會這樣的功能、性質，而是屬於要獨立行使職權的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第4屆以後都是啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是嘛，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要說的是，如果我們從憲法的沿革來看監委本身，當然我個人非常認同，前面有委員提出監察院應該早早廢除，有人不斷的口頭說要修憲來廢除，但是修憲的部分，是不是政黨能夠真心誠意的共同來推動，而且真心誠意的在公民投票的時候去推動，讓國民複決，讓這個修憲通過？你覺得是不是主張的政黨應該心口齊一，在選舉、在公投的時候持續來作出他們的主張？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第8屆跟第10屆有組修憲委員會，我有看到民進黨的提案，我沒有看到國民黨的提案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好的。那我們也看到了，包括18歲公民權，縱使各黨都在立法院通過提案了，在大選的時候，在公民投票的時候也很明顯的顯現出態度的不一啦！所以我覺得要做憲政改革不要嘴巴說說，也不是政黨提案啦！真的要真正提出憲法修正案的時候，要在公民投票的時候落實去推動啦！","我們來看一下，是不是可以請你們針對這個議題，即第一款跟第六款的問題，在過去監察委員的提名當中，請整理一下用第一款跟第六款提名的監委名單給本院，可以嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久可以？"],["李秘書長俊俋：今天下午就給委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，今天就可以。接下來我們來看一下，要求監委要獨立行使職權，跟司法院、跟法官……我們來看一下，2011年法官法直接要求法官退出政黨，有這個規定啊！但是根據臺師大的一位學者的研究，到目前為止，所有三級三審的法院，目前只有這樣子推估，他說，推估這些現職的法官95%以上是國民黨黨籍，但是到目前為止，只有這些比例20%、30%、50%的法官有發聲明退出政黨。我想請教秘書長，如果你覺得要確保監委跟司法院、跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權，是不是退出政黨更為有效？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是一個可以考慮的方向，各政黨現在有不同的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以我當然是認為要在嘴巴上去說修法，已經定的法有沒有辦法落實都還是個問題呢！退出政黨更為乾脆。好，我現在回過頭來要詢問，目前監察院因調查涉國家機密而需出境審查者有多少人？目前你們自己監察院的部分，請教一下。"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院所有的監察委員都是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後呢？還有沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：還有像我秘書長也是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有沒有？公務員也有……"],["李秘書長俊俋：還有我們調查處有涉及國家機密的，都在列管範圍裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我之前也問過，監察院行使調查權，因為涉及到國家機密，出境必須受限制，在兩岸人民關係條例當中有提到，關於第二款，相關機關包括監察院，從事涉及國家安全、利益或機密業務的人員。我看到你們的統計，離職未滿三年的，監察院還在列管的有12人，政務人員有16人，包括全體的監委，是不是這樣？好，那我們看到國家機密保護法，這些人出境，機關首長要審核，包括什麼？辦理國家機密事務的人員，依照國家機密保護法，你們列管了多少人？"],["李秘書長俊俋：國家機密保護法列管……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我幫你統計出來了，44人，請問你認為監察院有沒有，立法院同樣是比監察院更可能接觸國家機密的地方，我們立法院有沒有，我們倒過來，我們來看一下，監察委員有保障，對不對？依照國家機密保護法，你們要求要保密，有什麼洩漏的話由紀律委員處理，請問你認為這些調查權的限制，這些赴中、到其他國家的限制是自我閹割，還是對於監委行使職權的保障？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告兩個部分，國家機密保護法規定得非常清楚，是有涉密的人員需要管制。另外，赴中、赴大陸地區，這個兩岸人民關係條例第九條就有規定了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：只要是公務員就受到限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：公務員？那麼監察委員也包括在內？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察委員也包括在內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法委員也包括在內？"],["李秘書長俊俋：赴中都要申請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法委員有沒有包括在內？"],["李秘書長俊俋：立法委員應該也是吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院的職員也包括在內？公務員也包括在內？只要涉密……"],["李秘書長俊俋：公務人員更是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問到目前為止……"],["李秘書長俊俋：簡任以上一定要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：到目前為止，就你所知道，立法院有沒有去做這些人員的管制？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不知道？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是貴院的權責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來告訴你，我直接點出，在本月（4月）17日外交及國防委員會有關潛艦國造的秘密會議當中，有黃仁委員與會，但是他在4月26號陪同傅總召去中國面見中國的政協主席，你認為這樣的一個情況，包括黃仁委員在內，那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了？如果以監察院的標準來看，你認為你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員進行管制？"],["李秘書長俊俋：立法院不是我們管轄的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說以監察院這樣的秘密會議，你們會不會管制？"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果依據兩岸人民關係條例，簡任十職等以上，涉及國家機密，赴大陸都要申請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來告訴你，立法院從未依法提列人員清單，他也沒有去申報，對於立法委員這些人員，如果立法院未提列、沒有提列，負責的公務員有沒有怠惰？有沒有怠職？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個由立法院來決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是立法院決定啊！如果有人提出、跟監察院檢舉說，立法院負責該項業務的職員、公務員，他有怠惰，他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單，也無從申報、無從管制，請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果是公務人員的話，我們會調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們現在先口頭跟你報告、提出，希望你們就這些期間以來，立法院包括立法委員在內，涉密人員赴中，而立法院沒有落實法律的規定……"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟鍾委員報告，立法委員不是我們管制的對象……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是說管制立法委員，我是說有立法院裡面的公務員……"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果是公務員的話就是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：必須對這些人進行管制，但是他沒有做，他就怠忽職守，那要不要接受監察院的調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我們可以調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我這邊先提出來，我會正式的請監察院，就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法委員在內，涉密人員赴中，並未依法提出管制清單，這樣的行政怠惰，我請監察院來調查，可以嗎？可以接受嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，請鍾委員提出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","co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114.585, \"end\": 139.61, \"text\": \"他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對 那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"他\", \"start\": 114.585, \"end\": 114.725, \"score\": 0.96}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 114.725, \"end\": 114.885, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 114.885, \"end\": 115.065, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"四\", \"start\": 115.065, \"end\": 115.385, \"score\": 0.714}, {\"word\": \"屆\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 115.385, \"end\": 115.485, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 115.485, \"end\": 116.345, \"score\": 0.797}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 116.345, \"end\": 116.805, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 116.805, \"end\": 116.985, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"眾\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 116.985, \"end\": 117.086, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 117.086, \"end\": 117.166, \"score\": 0.749}, 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00:00:28,238\n主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請監察院李秘書長中委員好秘書長好請教秘書長就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解還有大法院的解釋在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會?\n\n2\n00:00:29,941 --> 00:00:31,762\n監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格?如果他是國會的話\n\n3\n00:00:53,905 --> 00:00:54,306\n監察院及考試院\n\n4\n00:01:10,407 --> 00:01:10,948\n考試院還是要獨立行政職權\n\n5\n00:01:26,489 --> 00:01:51,860\n剝奪了國會身份之後,他就不再具有國會身份後,他的調查權還是保留,但是人員要求獨立行使權。這是325號的解釋。對,但是考試院的部分,他有很強烈的考試用人的身份。他是考試行政。但是他在正確條文沒有要求他獨立行使權,很清楚。所以監察院的提名當中,過去我們看到了,你覺得民眾是不是還記得王健軒先生當過監委,當過院長?\n\n6\n00:01:54,585 --> 00:02:19,610\n他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個\n\n7\n00:02:21,531 --> 00:02:21,912\n監察院早早廢除\n\n8\n00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:38,400\n委員會主席\n\n9\n00:02:59,128 --> 00:03:00,269\n持續來做出他們的主張。\n\n10\n00:03:28,012 --> 00:03:29,212\n法官法直接要求法官退出政黨\n\n11\n00:03:57,722 --> 00:04:25,802\n有這個規定阿但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估阿他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍但是到目前為止只有這些比例203050的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權\n\n12\n00:04:27,023 --> 00:04:27,263\n目前監察院因調查\n\n13\n00:04:49,658 --> 00:05:17,094\n涉國家機密而須出境審查人有沒有有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後呢還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有有涉及國家機密的都都都在好列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境居受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到這關於的第三第二款齁\n\n14\n00:05:17,834 --> 00:05:42,592\n相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人\n\n15\n00:05:43,697 --> 00:05:47,402\n立法院同樣是比監察院更可能就是國家機密的地方那我們立法院有沒有跟這個\n\n16\n00:06:03,614 --> 00:06:19,911\n監察委員有保障,國家經濟保護法,你們要求保密,有洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割,還是對於監委行使職權的保障?\n\n17\n00:06:21,173 --> 00:06:37,592\n兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員那麼監察委員包括在內\n\n18\n00:06:39,092 --> 00:06:50,456\n檢察委員也包括在內啊副總統要申請啊立法委員也包括在內立法委員應該也是吧那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止立法院\n\n19\n00:06:56,158 --> 00:06:59,100\n在4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會\n\n20\n00:07:13,752 --> 00:07:31,179\n但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?\n\n21\n00:07:33,736 --> 00:08:02,607\n立法院不是我們管轄的法委我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰\n\n22\n00:08:03,564 --> 00:08:03,745\n有沒有待職\n\n23\n00:08:05,366 --> 00:08:34,283\n這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定,如果有人提出更正常的檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查,好那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法委員在內\n\n24\n00:08:36,193 --> 00:08:58,102\n社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定就進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法院管制的對象我說有立法院裡面的公務員如果公務隊這些人進行管制那他沒有做他就待乎職守要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查\n\n25\n00:08:58,302 --> 00:09:13,913\n好那我這邊先提出來我會正式的來請監察院就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法院在內涉密人員附中並未依法提出管制清單這樣的行政的帶墮我請監察院來調查可以嗎可以接受嗎好請鍾委員提出來好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6295\t28238\t主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請監察院李秘書長中委員好秘書長好請教秘書長就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解還有大法院的解釋在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會?\n29941\t31762\t監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格?如果他是國會的話\n53905\t54306\t監察院及考試院\n70407\t70948\t考試院還是要獨立行政職權\n86489\t111860\t剝奪了國會身份之後,他就不再具有國會身份後,他的調查權還是保留,但是人員要求獨立行使權。這是325號的解釋。對,但是考試院的部分,他有很強烈的考試用人的身份。他是考試行政。但是他在正確條文沒有要求他獨立行使權,很清楚。所以監察院的提名當中,過去我們看到了,你覺得民眾是不是還記得王健軒先生當過監委,當過院長?\n114585\t139610\t他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對 那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個\n141531\t141912\t監察院早早廢除\n158200\t158400\t委員會主席\n179128\t180269\t持續來做出他們的主張。\n208012\t209212\t法官法 直接要求法官退出政黨\n237722\t265802\t有這個規定阿但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估阿他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍但是到目前為止只有這些比例20 30 50的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權\n267023\t267263\t目前監察院因調查\n289658\t317094\t涉國家機密而須出境審查人有沒有有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後呢還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有有涉及國家機密的都都都在好列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境居受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到這關於的第三第二款齁\n317834\t342592\t相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人\n343697\t347402\t立法院同樣是比監察院更可能就是國家機密的地方那我們立法院有沒有跟這個\n363614\t379911\t監察委員有保障,國家經濟保護法,你們要求保密,有洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割,還是對於監委行使職權的保障?\n381173\t397592\t兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員 那麼監察委員包括在內\n399092\t410456\t檢察委員也包括在內啊 副總統要申請啊立法委員也包括在內立法委員應該也是吧那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止立法院\n416158\t419100\t在4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會\n433752\t451179\t但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?\n453736\t482607\t立法院不是我們管轄的法委我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰\n483564\t483745\t有沒有待職\n485366\t514283\t這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定,如果有人提出更正常的檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查,好那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法委員在內\n516193\t538102\t社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定就進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法院管制的對象 我說有立法院裡面的公務員 如果公務隊這些人進行管制那他沒有做 他就待乎職守 要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查\n538302\t553913\t好 那我這邊先提出來我會正式的來請監察院就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法院在內涉密人員附中並未依法提出管制清單這樣的行政的帶墮我請監察院來調查可以嗎 可以接受嗎好 請鍾委員提出來好 謝謝\n","txt":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請監察院李秘書長中委員好秘書長好請教秘書長就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解還有大法院的解釋在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會?\n監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格?如果他是國會的話\n監察院及考試院\n考試院還是要獨立行政職權\n剝奪了國會身份之後,他就不再具有國會身份後,他的調查權還是保留,但是人員要求獨立行使權。這是325號的解釋。對,但是考試院的部分,他有很強烈的考試用人的身份。他是考試行政。但是他在正確條文沒有要求他獨立行使權,很清楚。所以監察院的提名當中,過去我們看到了,你覺得民眾是不是還記得王健軒先生當過監委,當過院長?\n他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對 那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個\n監察院早早廢除\n委員會主席\n持續來做出他們的主張。\n法官法 直接要求法官退出政黨\n有這個規定阿但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估阿他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍但是到目前為止只有這些比例20 30 50的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權\n目前監察院因調查\n涉國家機密而須出境審查人有沒有有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後呢還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有有涉及國家機密的都都都在好列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境居受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到這關於的第三第二款齁\n相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人\n立法院同樣是比監察院更可能就是國家機密的地方那我們立法院有沒有跟這個\n監察委員有保障,國家經濟保護法,你們要求保密,有洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割,還是對於監委行使職權的保障?\n兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員 那麼監察委員包括在內\n檢察委員也包括在內啊 副總統要申請啊立法委員也包括在內立法委員應該也是吧那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止立法院\n在4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會\n但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?\n立法院不是我們管轄的法委我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰\n有沒有待職\n這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定,如果有人提出更正常的檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查,好那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法委員在內\n社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定就進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法院管制的對象 我說有立法院裡面的公務員 如果公務隊這些人進行管制那他沒有做 他就待乎職守 要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查\n好 那我這邊先提出來我會正式的來請監察院就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法院在內涉密人員附中並未依法提出管制清單這樣的行政的帶墮我請監察院來調查可以嗎 可以接受嗎好 請鍾委員提出來好 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.295 --> 00:28.238\n主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請監察院李秘書長中委員好秘書長好請教秘書長就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解還有大法院的解釋在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會?\n\n00:29.941 --> 00:31.762\n監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格?如果他是國會的話\n\n00:53.905 --> 00:54.306\n監察院及考試院\n\n01:10.407 --> 01:10.948\n考試院還是要獨立行政職權\n\n01:26.489 --> 01:51.860\n剝奪了國會身份之後,他就不再具有國會身份後,他的調查權還是保留,但是人員要求獨立行使權。這是325號的解釋。對,但是考試院的部分,他有很強烈的考試用人的身份。他是考試行政。但是他在正確條文沒有要求他獨立行使權,很清楚。所以監察院的提名當中,過去我們看到了,你覺得民眾是不是還記得王健軒先生當過監委,當過院長?\n\n01:54.585 --> 02:19.610\n他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個\n\n02:21.531 --> 02:21.912\n監察院早早廢除\n\n02:38.200 --> 02:38.400\n委員會主席\n\n02:59.128 --> 03:00.269\n持續來做出他們的主張。\n\n03:28.012 --> 03:29.212\n法官法直接要求法官退出政黨\n\n03:57.722 --> 04:25.802\n有這個規定阿但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估阿他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍但是到目前為止只有這些比例203050的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權\n\n04:27.023 --> 04:27.263\n目前監察院因調查\n\n04:49.658 --> 05:17.094\n涉國家機密而須出境審查人有沒有有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後呢還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有有涉及國家機密的都都都在好列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境居受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到這關於的第三第二款齁\n\n05:17.834 --> 05:42.592\n相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人\n\n05:43.697 --> 05:47.402\n立法院同樣是比監察院更可能就是國家機密的地方那我們立法院有沒有跟這個\n\n06:03.614 --> 06:19.911\n監察委員有保障,國家經濟保護法,你們要求保密,有洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割,還是對於監委行使職權的保障?\n\n06:21.173 --> 06:37.592\n兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員那麼監察委員包括在內\n\n06:39.092 --> 06:50.456\n檢察委員也包括在內啊副總統要申請啊立法委員也包括在內立法委員應該也是吧那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止立法院\n\n06:56.158 --> 06:59.100\n在4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會\n\n07:13.752 --> 07:31.179\n但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?\n\n07:33.736 --> 08:02.607\n立法院不是我們管轄的法委我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰\n\n08:03.564 --> 08:03.745\n有沒有待職\n\n08:05.366 --> 08:34.283\n這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定,如果有人提出更正常的檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查,好那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法委員在內\n\n08:36.193 --> 08:58.102\n社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定就進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法院管制的對象我說有立法院裡面的公務員如果公務隊這些人進行管制那他沒有做他就待乎職守要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查\n\n08:58.302 --> 09:13.913\n好那我這邊先提出來我會正式的來請監察院就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法院在內涉密人員附中並未依法提出管制清單這樣的行政的帶墮我請監察院來調查可以嗎可以接受嗎好請鍾委員提出來好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.295,"end":28.238,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關所長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請監察院李秘書長中委員好秘書長好請教秘書長就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解還有大法院的解釋在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會?"},{"start":29.941,"end":31.762,"text":"監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格?如果他是國會的話"},{"start":53.905,"end":54.306,"text":"監察院及考試院"},{"start":70.407,"end":70.948,"text":"考試院還是要獨立行政職權"},{"start":86.489,"end":111.86,"text":"剝奪了國會身份之後,他就不再具有國會身份後,他的調查權還是保留,但是人員要求獨立行使權。這是325號的解釋。對,但是考試院的部分,他有很強烈的考試用人的身份。他是考試行政。但是他在正確條文沒有要求他獨立行使權,很清楚。所以監察院的提名當中,過去我們看到了,你覺得民眾是不是還記得王健軒先生當過監委,當過院長?"},{"start":114.585,"end":139.61,"text":"他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對 那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個"},{"start":141.531,"end":141.912,"text":"監察院早早廢除"},{"start":158.2,"end":158.4,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":179.128,"end":180.269,"text":"持續來做出他們的主張。"},{"start":208.012,"end":209.212,"text":"法官法 直接要求法官退出政黨"},{"start":237.722,"end":265.802,"text":"有這個規定阿但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估阿他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍但是到目前為止只有這些比例20 30 50的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權"},{"start":267.023,"end":267.263,"text":"目前監察院因調查"},{"start":289.658,"end":317.094,"text":"涉國家機密而須出境審查人有沒有有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後呢還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有有涉及國家機密的都都都在好列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境居受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到這關於的第三第二款齁"},{"start":317.834,"end":342.592,"text":"相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人"},{"start":343.697,"end":347.402,"text":"立法院同樣是比監察院更可能就是國家機密的地方那我們立法院有沒有跟這個"},{"start":363.614,"end":379.911,"text":"監察委員有保障,國家經濟保護法,你們要求保密,有洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割,還是對於監委行使職權的保障?"},{"start":381.173,"end":397.592,"text":"兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員 那麼監察委員包括在內"},{"start":399.092,"end":410.456,"text":"檢察委員也包括在內啊 副總統要申請啊立法委員也包括在內立法委員應該也是吧那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止立法院"},{"start":416.158,"end":419.1,"text":"在4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會"},{"start":433.752,"end":451.179,"text":"但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?"},{"start":453.736,"end":482.607,"text":"立法院不是我們管轄的法委我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰"},{"start":483.564,"end":483.745,"text":"有沒有待職"},{"start":485.366,"end":514.283,"text":"這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定,如果有人提出更正常的檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查,好那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法委員在內"},{"start":516.193,"end":538.102,"text":"社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定就進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法院管制的對象 我說有立法院裡面的公務員 如果公務隊這些人進行管制那他沒有做 他就待乎職守 要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查"},{"start":538.302,"end":553.913,"text":"好 那我這邊先提出來我會正式的來請監察院就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法院在內涉密人員附中並未依法提出管制清單這樣的行政的帶墮我請監察院來調查可以嗎 可以接受嗎好 請鍾委員提出來好 謝謝"}]}}}}