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10:31:05","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":582,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:31:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:21:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時21分）主席早，有請文化次長。"],["主席：好，請文化部次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長，早安。我想大家都提到很多跟黃牛有關的一些問題，一般民眾想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或者是看一下賽事，其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛系統在大量掃票的黃牛啦！在上個禮拜一個寫程式的竹科工程師落網，但是在所有的調查過程當中，他其實也點到了目前所有的售票機制出現的一些漏洞和一些問題，其實大部分都是在講就是在比網速，網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過……我們來看一下所有買票的過程，包含要輸入驗證碼，但是這個售票系統能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出到底是不是真人，但是他又沒有辦法阻止機器人去搶票，他覺得非常不公平，所以他寫了這樣的程式，雖然他落網，但是他真正違法的原因其實在於他偽造文書，因為他可能用了很多人的個資。針對這個部分，其實數發部在數位簽章法通過之後，除了身分證被冒用的這個狀況有可能會減少，這個的確也是，但是是不是能夠在所有的售票系統當中改善所謂的驗證碼是不是真人這樣的問題，這個部分你怎麼看？"],["王次長時思：我想這部分我們可以跟數發部、警政署來協談，看可以怎麼強化這些事情。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天數發部有代表嗎？我想這個問題其實也蠻大的，因為的確我們有政策，他們有對策，數發部怎麼看？"],["林副署長俊秀：就跟委員剛剛提到的一樣，電子簽章法承蒙委員會通過了，之後會發布實施，因為它是有電子簽章跟數位簽章，已經是由第三方憑證單位發的，所以他如果要用數位簽章，就已經證實他是本人了，我們初步的構想是，驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：為什麼網路上黃牛猖獗的行為還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止？我覺得雖然文創法在去年6月已經開始有做一些調整跟修法，這個立意是良善的，但問題是對於黃牛，真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎？我們來看一下，在第十條之一有講到，對於以不正當的方式取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的行為加以規範，另外，明確規定只要是以超過票面金額或定價販售。但我們後來其實看到有很多人說，那不對啊！我只是為了郵寄，所以我超過了票面金額。我們定出來的是只要超過票面，就應該可以檢舉，就覺得是黃牛。問題是到真正的、真實的狀況，其實有的不是黃牛，這個部分我們的標準不一，這個怎麼解決？"],["王次長時思：沒有，這個部分是這樣，在加價的部分，它的關鍵是，它的加價是加在票價上，還是第三方獲得？剛剛委員提到了郵資、交通費，因為販售二手票而增加的費用，基本上因為它是第三方，不會計入票價，所以它的確要透過個案來認定。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們現在在檢舉黃牛的部分，其實大部分都是被動地接到案子、檢舉的，對不對？我們並沒有主動地去出擊，為什麼？"],["王次長時思：是，因為我們不是司法、警方等查察的單位。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們來看一下，整個檢舉的流程，包含座位區必填、選位的位置必填，但現在的黃牛沒有這麼笨，他其實都會跟一般人說，你先把錢匯給我，之後等到你拿到票……而且我只告訴你大概是哪一個，我們來看一下這個對話，這個對話是真的喔！"],["王次長時思：所以這個就很有可能變成詐欺。"],["郭委員昱晴：除了詐欺以外，我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎？我們整個檢舉的流程是這麼地繁複，我們怎麼期待它能夠成案呢？"],["王次長時思：但沒有座位號會沒有辦法找到本人，沒有辦法找到賣票的人，所以這是為什麼一定要有座位號，因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄，所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號，你才有辦法取得買票人的資料，這是一個關鍵，要不然就得有銀行轉帳……"],["郭委員昱晴：這是關鍵，但也是最大的一個問題嘛！也就是說，我根本不知道買票的人是誰，我根本沒有給你一個正確的細節。"],["王次長時思：就沒有辦法進行裁罰。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以成案率才會這麼、這麼地低啊！我們來看一下文化部的資料，以臺北市政府為例，你看一下整個臺北市政府的資料，上個月其實苗博雅議員也質詢了臺北市政府文化局，他提到10個月下來，開罰率只有1%，總共753件的檢舉案件當中，只有8件開罰，這中間到底出了什麼狀況？就是基本上它掌握不到黃牛的資訊，這個部分怎麼跨部會來解決？"],["王次長時思：這個部分的確是受限於這個……整體來說裁罰就是要符合罪刑法定，所以你一定要取得確實的當事人資料才能夠進行裁罰，這也是黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票產生的最大困難。"],["郭委員昱晴：尤其是現在，其實很多表演的場合主要是在六都，那麼以臺北市、高雄市……"],["王次長時思：是主要的場合。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實在成案率就有一個很大地、明顯地落差，當然臺北市政府說是員額不夠。員額的部分其實是臺北市政府……"],["王次長時思：他們可以增加。"],["郭委員昱晴：以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況，我不相信員額會分配不了，但是我相信，文化局跟文化部在我們訂立了這樣子的修法關鍵之後，你們是不是沒有告訴他們一個統一的準則？讓他們沒有方法，所以成案率只有1%，只有8件開罰。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，其實在方法上，我們大概就是一再地協調跟說明，因為它大概有幾個關鍵，譬如售票平臺要提供買受人的資料，你要跟警方確認個資的真實性、要跟電信業者調手機，或者是知道他的銀行帳號等等，這些方法都是可能調查的方法，但的確……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這等於就是要跨部會處理，要再次地跨部會協調，甚至中央跟地方，文化部跟文化局，要統一啊！"],["王次長時思：可以，有，這個有。"],["郭委員昱晴：那統一的這個平臺：第一，在簡化檢舉的流程當中，是不是能夠掌握到黃牛的真實身分？這個部分包含金管會，他是用誰的卡？是用誰的身分？到底是誰去買票？是誰去掃票？我們才能夠掌握到真實的……"],["王次長時思：的確。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個部分是不是應該要來解決？要跨部會來解決啊！"],["王次長時思：這個部分主要還是牽涉到法源的依據，因為它算是一個比較強力要求人民權利的事項，等於是你要求他交出這些個資，所以這個部分，我們來研議看看可以怎麼做。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉，因為我們在檢舉的過程當中，那個流程這麼地繁複，其實這到最後就變成不成案啊！"],["王次長時思：可是在主動的調查裡面，因為也沒有個資，就算他在社群上刊登，但你也沒有辦法瞭解真正的刊登者是誰。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實有太多的檢舉案件，到最後是用補件不全作為結案的理由，所以這也是讓我們覺得黃牛沒有辦法完全被檢舉的一個原因。好，今天因為時間的關係，最後我再用一點點的時間，我們講到文策院，其實我們支持文創產業貸款的部分，中央銀行在3月21號決定升息半碼，對於很多文創、戲劇產出的業者來講，如果是3,000萬的貸款，光升息半碼每個月就要增加3,125元。那這個部分就有人來陳情的狀況，我們是不是可以建議文化部，這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款，甚至青年創業啟動金的貸款，或者是疫情之後的振興貸款？就是不要讓這些文化產業業者的貸款升息，這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助他們？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們的確在研議怎麼樣可以減輕利息，因為利息是變動的，所以當升息的時候，這個壓力就會出現，所以我們的確在研議看有沒有可以改善、減輕貸款利息的方式。"],["郭委員昱晴：這是為了要鼓勵更多的文創青年來加入文創產業。"],["王次長時思：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。本席宣布：我們在陳秀寳委員質詢完畢之後就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"id":"151828","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151828","tool":"pyannote","id":"151828-pyannote"},"job_id":"vknfVirQhL6rV1Ag","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"end\": 558.786, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"貸\"}, {\"word\": \"款\", \"start\": 558.786, \"end\": 559.247, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"幫\"}, {\"word\": \"助\", \"start\": 559.247, \"end\": 559.267, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 560.506, \"end\": 560.606, \"score\": 0.761}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 560.606, \"end\": 560.626, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:06,058 --> 00:00:09,607\n主席早有請文化部次長好我們請文化部次長\n\n2\n00:00:15,163 --> 00:00:40,521\n市長早安我想大家都提到很多相關跟黃牛有關的一些問題喔那一般民眾真的想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或是看一下賽事其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛的一個系統在大量掃貨的這樣掃票的一個黃牛啦那這個部分其實是在上個禮拜一個寫程式的一個竹科工程師他落網\n\n3\n00:00:41,462 --> 00:00:47,878\n但是他的確在整個所有的調查過程當中其實也點到了目前整個所有的\n\n4\n00:00:48,917 --> 00:01:14,350\n受票的一個機制我們出現了一些漏洞跟一些問題其實大部分都是在講的就是在比網速網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過我們來看一下那個整個所有我們在買票的那個過程包含我們要輸入所謂的驗證碼但是這個系統當中其實受票系統當中他能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出這個到底是不是真人但是他又沒有辦法去阻止這個機器人去搶票\n\n5\n00:01:15,050 --> 00:01:15,170\n主席主席\n\n6\n00:01:40,581 --> 00:01:43,202\n主席主席主席主席主席主席主席\n\n7\n00:02:14,541 --> 00:02:35,035\n就跟委員剛剛提到一樣,我們電子簽證法成本委員會通過了之後會發布實施,因為它是有電子簽證跟數位簽證的,所以它已經是有第三方的這個憑證在那裡發的,所以它已經如果要用數位簽證就已經證實它是本人了,應該就我們在初步的構想是驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論了。\n\n8\n00:02:36,383 --> 00:02:56,920\n那為什麼其實他們的這個網絡上黃牛的猖獗的行為其實還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止我覺得是雖然我們的這個文創法其實在去年我們的6月其實已經開始有做一些調整跟修法的部分這個是利益是良善的啦但是問題是對於黃牛真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎\n\n9\n00:02:58,315 --> 00:03:12,721\n我們來看一下我們自己本身在這個第10條之一有講到以不正當的取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的一個行為加以規範但是其實在另外在我們的明確的規定當中\n\n10\n00:03:14,122 --> 00:03:14,282\n主席主席\n\n11\n00:03:34,961 --> 00:03:52,772\n這個部分是這樣在加價的部分它的關鍵是它的加價是加在票面價格還是加在票價上還是說是第三方獲得剛剛委員提到的油資、交通費因為販售這個二手票而增加了這個費用它基本上因為是第三方所以不會計入這個票價所以它的確要透過個案來做認定\n\n12\n00:03:53,993 --> 00:04:03,440\n好我們現在其實在檢舉黃牛的部分其實大部分都是所謂的被動的接到案子檢舉的對不對我們並沒有主動的去出擊為什麼我們來看一下整個所有的檢舉的一個流程包含我的座位區必填包含我選位的位置必填但現在黃牛其實沒有這麼笨喔\n\n13\n00:04:16,829 --> 00:04:27,760\n他其實都會叫一般人你先把錢匯給我我之後等到你拿到票而且我只告訴你我大概是哪一個我們來看一下這個對話這個對話是真的\n\n14\n00:04:31,733 --> 00:04:47,237\n除了炸雞以外可是我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎我們在整個所有的檢舉的流程是這麼的繁複我們怎麼期待他們都成案呢沒有辦法找到本人沒有辦法找到賣票的人所以這是為什麼一定要座位號因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄嘛所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號你才有辦法取得買票人的資料這是一個關鍵\n\n15\n00:04:55,979 --> 00:04:56,479\n臺北市政府為例\n\n16\n00:05:15,993 --> 00:05:41,288\n我們的議員苗博雅他也質詢了這個臺北市政府的一個教育局那個文化局他提到10個月下來開罰率只有1%總共檢舉的案件753件當中只有8件開罰這中間到底出了什麼狀況就是他們基本上他掌握不到整個黃牛的一個資訊那這個部分我們怎麼跨部會來做解決啊\n\n17\n00:05:42,288 --> 00:06:00,524\n這個部分的確是受限於這個整體來說要裁罰就是罪行法定所以你一定要取得確實的這個當事人的資料才能夠進行裁罰這也是整個在黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票的話尤其是現在其實很多的表演的場合\n\n18\n00:06:01,425 --> 00:06:01,485\n李慧琼議員\n\n19\n00:06:22,196 --> 00:06:45,586\n以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況我不相信員額會分配不了但是我相信文化局其實在跟文化部這邊我們訂立這樣子的一個修法的一個整個所有的關鍵之後是不是沒有一個統一的告訴他們我們的一個統一的準則是什麼讓他們真的沒有方法所以成案率只有1%只有8件開罰\n\n20\n00:06:48,447 --> 00:07:08,215\n跟委員報告其實在方法上我們大概就是一再的協調跟做說明因為他大概有幾個關鍵比如說你要售票平台要提供買售人的這個資料你要跟警方確認這個個資的真實性要跟電信業者調手機或者甚至是知道他的銀行帳號等等那像這些方法他都是可能調查的方法\n\n21\n00:07:08,695 --> 00:07:08,735\n主席\n\n22\n00:07:38,897 --> 00:07:41,114\n那這個部分是不是應該要來解決啊?\n\n23\n00:07:43,556 --> 00:08:11,607\n主要是他還是牽涉到法院的依據因為他算是一個比較強力要求人民的權利事項等於是你要求他交出這些個資所以這個部分所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉因為我們在檢舉的過程當中那個流程這麼的繁複其實到最後就變成所謂的不成案的成立可是在主動的調查裡面因為也沒有個資因為就算他在社群上刊登但你也沒有辦法取得那刊登者\n\n24\n00:08:12,287 --> 00:08:12,567\n李慧琼議員\n\n25\n00:08:35,014 --> 00:08:48,994\n在我們3月21日他決定升息半碼．對於很多的文創、戲劇產出的業者來講．他們包含如果是三百萬、三千萬的一個貸款．光升息半碼每個月就要增加3125元．\n\n26\n00:08:51,297 --> 00:09:19,267\n那這個部分其實我們提供的這樣子的一個有人來澄清的這樣一個狀況我們是不是可以建議我們的文化部這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款甚至青年創業啟動這個啟動金的一個貸款或者是在疫情之後的振興貸款這樣子就是不要去讓這樣子的文化產業的業者讓他們生息這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助\n\n27\n00:09:20,506 --> 00:09:20,626\n主席\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n6058\t9607\t主席早有請文化部次長好我們請文化部次長\n15163\t40521\t市長早安我想大家都提到很多相關跟黃牛有關的一些問題喔那一般民眾真的想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或是看一下賽事其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛的一個系統在大量掃貨的這樣掃票的一個黃牛啦那這個部分其實是在上個禮拜一個寫程式的一個竹科工程師他落網\n41462\t47878\t但是他的確在整個所有的調查過程當中其實也點到了目前整個所有的\n48917\t74350\t受票的一個機制我們出現了一些漏洞跟一些問題其實大部分都是在講的就是在比網速網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過我們來看一下那個整個所有我們在買票的那個過程包含我們要輸入所謂的驗證碼但是這個系統當中其實受票系統當中他能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出這個到底是不是真人但是他又沒有辦法去阻止這個機器人去搶票\n75050\t75170\t主席主席\n100581\t103202\t主席主席主席主席主席主席主席\n134541\t155035\t就跟委員剛剛提到一樣,我們電子簽證法成本委員會通過了之後會發布實施,因為它是有電子簽證跟數位簽證的,所以它已經是有第三方的這個憑證在那裡發的,所以它已經如果要用數位簽證就已經證實它是本人了,應該就我們在初步的構想是驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論了。\n156383\t176920\t那為什麼其實他們的這個網絡上黃牛的猖獗的行為其實還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止我覺得是雖然我們的這個文創法其實在去年我們的6月其實已經開始有做一些調整跟修法的部分這個是利益是良善的啦但是問題是對於黃牛真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎\n178315\t192721\t我們來看一下我們自己本身在這個第10條之一有講到以不正當的取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的一個行為加以規範但是其實在另外在我們的明確的規定當中\n194122\t194282\t主席主席\n214961\t232772\t這個部分是這樣在加價的部分它的關鍵是它的加價是加在票面價格還是加在票價上還是說是第三方獲得剛剛委員提到的油資、交通費因為販售這個二手票而增加了這個費用它基本上因為是第三方所以不會計入這個票價所以它的確要透過個案來做認定\n233993\t243440\t好我們現在其實在檢舉黃牛的部分其實大部分都是所謂的被動的接到案子檢舉的對不對我們並沒有主動的去出擊為什麼我們來看一下整個所有的檢舉的一個流程包含我的座位區必填包含我選位的位置必填但現在黃牛其實沒有這麼笨喔\n256829\t267760\t他其實都會叫一般人你先把錢匯給我我之後等到你拿到票而且我只告訴你我大概是哪一個我們來看一下這個對話這個對話是真的\n271733\t287237\t除了炸雞以外可是我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎我們在整個所有的檢舉的流程是這麼的繁複我們怎麼期待他們都成案呢沒有辦法找到本人沒有辦法找到賣票的人所以這是為什麼一定要座位號因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄嘛所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號你才有辦法取得買票人的資料這是一個關鍵\n295979\t296479\t臺北市政府為例\n315993\t341288\t我們的議員苗博雅他也質詢了這個臺北市政府的一個教育局那個文化局他提到10個月下來開罰率只有1%總共檢舉的案件753件當中只有8件開罰這中間到底出了什麼狀況就是他們基本上他掌握不到整個黃牛的一個資訊那這個部分我們怎麼跨部會來做解決啊\n342288\t360524\t這個部分的確是受限於這個整體來說要裁罰就是罪行法定所以你一定要取得確實的這個當事人的資料才能夠進行裁罰這也是整個在黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票的話尤其是現在其實很多的表演的場合\n361425\t361485\t李慧琼議員\n382196\t405586\t以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況我不相信員額會分配不了但是我相信文化局其實在跟文化部這邊我們訂立這樣子的一個修法的一個整個所有的關鍵之後是不是沒有一個統一的告訴他們我們的一個統一的準則是什麼讓他們真的沒有方法所以成案率只有1%只有8件開罰\n408447\t428215\t跟委員報告其實在方法上我們大概就是一再的協調跟做說明因為他大概有幾個關鍵比如說你要售票平台要提供買售人的這個資料你要跟警方確認這個個資的真實性要跟電信業者調手機或者甚至是知道他的銀行帳號等等那像這些方法他都是可能調查的方法\n428695\t428735\t主席\n458897\t461114\t那這個部分是不是應該要來解決啊?\n463556\t491607\t主要是他還是牽涉到法院的依據因為他算是一個比較強力要求人民的權利事項等於是你要求他交出這些個資所以這個部分所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉因為我們在檢舉的過程當中那個流程這麼的繁複其實到最後就變成所謂的不成案的成立可是在主動的調查裡面因為也沒有個資因為就算他在社群上刊登但你也沒有辦法取得那刊登者\n492287\t492567\t李慧琼議員\n515014\t528994\t在我們3月21日他決定升息半碼．對於很多的文創、戲劇產出的業者來講．他們包含如果是三百萬、三千萬的一個貸款．光升息半碼每個月就要增加3125元．\n531297\t559267\t那這個部分其實我們提供的這樣子的一個有人來澄清的這樣一個狀況我們是不是可以建議我們的文化部這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款甚至青年創業啟動這個啟動金的一個貸款或者是在疫情之後的振興貸款這樣子就是不要去讓這樣子的文化產業的業者讓他們生息這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助\n560506\t560626\t主席\n","txt":"主席早有請文化部次長好我們請文化部次長\n市長早安我想大家都提到很多相關跟黃牛有關的一些問題喔那一般民眾真的想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或是看一下賽事其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛的一個系統在大量掃貨的這樣掃票的一個黃牛啦那這個部分其實是在上個禮拜一個寫程式的一個竹科工程師他落網\n但是他的確在整個所有的調查過程當中其實也點到了目前整個所有的\n受票的一個機制我們出現了一些漏洞跟一些問題其實大部分都是在講的就是在比網速網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過我們來看一下那個整個所有我們在買票的那個過程包含我們要輸入所謂的驗證碼但是這個系統當中其實受票系統當中他能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出這個到底是不是真人但是他又沒有辦法去阻止這個機器人去搶票\n主席主席\n主席主席主席主席主席主席主席\n就跟委員剛剛提到一樣,我們電子簽證法成本委員會通過了之後會發布實施,因為它是有電子簽證跟數位簽證的,所以它已經是有第三方的這個憑證在那裡發的,所以它已經如果要用數位簽證就已經證實它是本人了,應該就我們在初步的構想是驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論了。\n那為什麼其實他們的這個網絡上黃牛的猖獗的行為其實還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止我覺得是雖然我們的這個文創法其實在去年我們的6月其實已經開始有做一些調整跟修法的部分這個是利益是良善的啦但是問題是對於黃牛真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎\n我們來看一下我們自己本身在這個第10條之一有講到以不正當的取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的一個行為加以規範但是其實在另外在我們的明確的規定當中\n主席主席\n這個部分是這樣在加價的部分它的關鍵是它的加價是加在票面價格還是加在票價上還是說是第三方獲得剛剛委員提到的油資、交通費因為販售這個二手票而增加了這個費用它基本上因為是第三方所以不會計入這個票價所以它的確要透過個案來做認定\n好我們現在其實在檢舉黃牛的部分其實大部分都是所謂的被動的接到案子檢舉的對不對我們並沒有主動的去出擊為什麼我們來看一下整個所有的檢舉的一個流程包含我的座位區必填包含我選位的位置必填但現在黃牛其實沒有這麼笨喔\n他其實都會叫一般人你先把錢匯給我我之後等到你拿到票而且我只告訴你我大概是哪一個我們來看一下這個對話這個對話是真的\n除了炸雞以外可是我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎我們在整個所有的檢舉的流程是這麼的繁複我們怎麼期待他們都成案呢沒有辦法找到本人沒有辦法找到賣票的人所以這是為什麼一定要座位號因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄嘛所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號你才有辦法取得買票人的資料這是一個關鍵\n臺北市政府為例\n我們的議員苗博雅他也質詢了這個臺北市政府的一個教育局那個文化局他提到10個月下來開罰率只有1%總共檢舉的案件753件當中只有8件開罰這中間到底出了什麼狀況就是他們基本上他掌握不到整個黃牛的一個資訊那這個部分我們怎麼跨部會來做解決啊\n這個部分的確是受限於這個整體來說要裁罰就是罪行法定所以你一定要取得確實的這個當事人的資料才能夠進行裁罰這也是整個在黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票的話尤其是現在其實很多的表演的場合\n李慧琼議員\n以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況我不相信員額會分配不了但是我相信文化局其實在跟文化部這邊我們訂立這樣子的一個修法的一個整個所有的關鍵之後是不是沒有一個統一的告訴他們我們的一個統一的準則是什麼讓他們真的沒有方法所以成案率只有1%只有8件開罰\n跟委員報告其實在方法上我們大概就是一再的協調跟做說明因為他大概有幾個關鍵比如說你要售票平台要提供買售人的這個資料你要跟警方確認這個個資的真實性要跟電信業者調手機或者甚至是知道他的銀行帳號等等那像這些方法他都是可能調查的方法\n主席\n那這個部分是不是應該要來解決啊?\n主要是他還是牽涉到法院的依據因為他算是一個比較強力要求人民的權利事項等於是你要求他交出這些個資所以這個部分所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉因為我們在檢舉的過程當中那個流程這麼的繁複其實到最後就變成所謂的不成案的成立可是在主動的調查裡面因為也沒有個資因為就算他在社群上刊登但你也沒有辦法取得那刊登者\n李慧琼議員\n在我們3月21日他決定升息半碼．對於很多的文創、戲劇產出的業者來講．他們包含如果是三百萬、三千萬的一個貸款．光升息半碼每個月就要增加3125元．\n那這個部分其實我們提供的這樣子的一個有人來澄清的這樣一個狀況我們是不是可以建議我們的文化部這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款甚至青年創業啟動這個啟動金的一個貸款或者是在疫情之後的振興貸款這樣子就是不要去讓這樣子的文化產業的業者讓他們生息這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助\n主席\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:06.058 --> 00:09.607\n主席早有請文化部次長好我們請文化部次長\n\n00:15.163 --> 00:40.521\n市長早安我想大家都提到很多相關跟黃牛有關的一些問題喔那一般民眾真的想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或是看一下賽事其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛的一個系統在大量掃貨的這樣掃票的一個黃牛啦那這個部分其實是在上個禮拜一個寫程式的一個竹科工程師他落網\n\n00:41.462 --> 00:47.878\n但是他的確在整個所有的調查過程當中其實也點到了目前整個所有的\n\n00:48.917 --> 01:14.350\n受票的一個機制我們出現了一些漏洞跟一些問題其實大部分都是在講的就是在比網速網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過我們來看一下那個整個所有我們在買票的那個過程包含我們要輸入所謂的驗證碼但是這個系統當中其實受票系統當中他能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出這個到底是不是真人但是他又沒有辦法去阻止這個機器人去搶票\n\n01:15.050 --> 01:15.170\n主席主席\n\n01:40.581 --> 01:43.202\n主席主席主席主席主席主席主席\n\n02:14.541 --> 02:35.035\n就跟委員剛剛提到一樣,我們電子簽證法成本委員會通過了之後會發布實施,因為它是有電子簽證跟數位簽證的,所以它已經是有第三方的這個憑證在那裡發的,所以它已經如果要用數位簽證就已經證實它是本人了,應該就我們在初步的構想是驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論了。\n\n02:36.383 --> 02:56.920\n那為什麼其實他們的這個網絡上黃牛的猖獗的行為其實還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止我覺得是雖然我們的這個文創法其實在去年我們的6月其實已經開始有做一些調整跟修法的部分這個是利益是良善的啦但是問題是對於黃牛真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎\n\n02:58.315 --> 03:12.721\n我們來看一下我們自己本身在這個第10條之一有講到以不正當的取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的一個行為加以規範但是其實在另外在我們的明確的規定當中\n\n03:14.122 --> 03:14.282\n主席主席\n\n03:34.961 --> 03:52.772\n這個部分是這樣在加價的部分它的關鍵是它的加價是加在票面價格還是加在票價上還是說是第三方獲得剛剛委員提到的油資、交通費因為販售這個二手票而增加了這個費用它基本上因為是第三方所以不會計入這個票價所以它的確要透過個案來做認定\n\n03:53.993 --> 04:03.440\n好我們現在其實在檢舉黃牛的部分其實大部分都是所謂的被動的接到案子檢舉的對不對我們並沒有主動的去出擊為什麼我們來看一下整個所有的檢舉的一個流程包含我的座位區必填包含我選位的位置必填但現在黃牛其實沒有這麼笨喔\n\n04:16.829 --> 04:27.760\n他其實都會叫一般人你先把錢匯給我我之後等到你拿到票而且我只告訴你我大概是哪一個我們來看一下這個對話這個對話是真的\n\n04:31.733 --> 04:47.237\n除了炸雞以外可是我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎我們在整個所有的檢舉的流程是這麼的繁複我們怎麼期待他們都成案呢沒有辦法找到本人沒有辦法找到賣票的人所以這是為什麼一定要座位號因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄嘛所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號你才有辦法取得買票人的資料這是一個關鍵\n\n04:55.979 --> 04:56.479\n臺北市政府為例\n\n05:15.993 --> 05:41.288\n我們的議員苗博雅他也質詢了這個臺北市政府的一個教育局那個文化局他提到10個月下來開罰率只有1%總共檢舉的案件753件當中只有8件開罰這中間到底出了什麼狀況就是他們基本上他掌握不到整個黃牛的一個資訊那這個部分我們怎麼跨部會來做解決啊\n\n05:42.288 --> 06:00.524\n這個部分的確是受限於這個整體來說要裁罰就是罪行法定所以你一定要取得確實的這個當事人的資料才能夠進行裁罰這也是整個在黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票的話尤其是現在其實很多的表演的場合\n\n06:01.425 --> 06:01.485\n李慧琼議員\n\n06:22.196 --> 06:45.586\n以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況我不相信員額會分配不了但是我相信文化局其實在跟文化部這邊我們訂立這樣子的一個修法的一個整個所有的關鍵之後是不是沒有一個統一的告訴他們我們的一個統一的準則是什麼讓他們真的沒有方法所以成案率只有1%只有8件開罰\n\n06:48.447 --> 07:08.215\n跟委員報告其實在方法上我們大概就是一再的協調跟做說明因為他大概有幾個關鍵比如說你要售票平台要提供買售人的這個資料你要跟警方確認這個個資的真實性要跟電信業者調手機或者甚至是知道他的銀行帳號等等那像這些方法他都是可能調查的方法\n\n07:08.695 --> 07:08.735\n主席\n\n07:38.897 --> 07:41.114\n那這個部分是不是應該要來解決啊?\n\n07:43.556 --> 08:11.607\n主要是他還是牽涉到法院的依據因為他算是一個比較強力要求人民的權利事項等於是你要求他交出這些個資所以這個部分所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉因為我們在檢舉的過程當中那個流程這麼的繁複其實到最後就變成所謂的不成案的成立可是在主動的調查裡面因為也沒有個資因為就算他在社群上刊登但你也沒有辦法取得那刊登者\n\n08:12.287 --> 08:12.567\n李慧琼議員\n\n08:35.014 --> 08:48.994\n在我們3月21日他決定升息半碼．對於很多的文創、戲劇產出的業者來講．他們包含如果是三百萬、三千萬的一個貸款．光升息半碼每個月就要增加3125元．\n\n08:51.297 --> 09:19.267\n那這個部分其實我們提供的這樣子的一個有人來澄清的這樣一個狀況我們是不是可以建議我們的文化部這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款甚至青年創業啟動這個啟動金的一個貸款或者是在疫情之後的振興貸款這樣子就是不要去讓這樣子的文化產業的業者讓他們生息這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助\n\n09:20.506 --> 09:20.626\n主席\n\n","segments":[{"start":6.058,"end":9.607,"text":"主席早有請文化部次長好我們請文化部次長"},{"start":15.163,"end":40.521,"text":"市長早安我想大家都提到很多相關跟黃牛有關的一些問題喔那一般民眾真的想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或是看一下賽事其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛的一個系統在大量掃貨的這樣掃票的一個黃牛啦那這個部分其實是在上個禮拜一個寫程式的一個竹科工程師他落網"},{"start":41.462,"end":47.878,"text":"但是他的確在整個所有的調查過程當中其實也點到了目前整個所有的"},{"start":48.917,"end":74.35,"text":"受票的一個機制我們出現了一些漏洞跟一些問題其實大部分都是在講的就是在比網速網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過我們來看一下那個整個所有我們在買票的那個過程包含我們要輸入所謂的驗證碼但是這個系統當中其實受票系統當中他能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出這個到底是不是真人但是他又沒有辦法去阻止這個機器人去搶票"},{"start":75.05,"end":75.17,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":100.581,"end":103.202,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":134.541,"end":155.035,"text":"就跟委員剛剛提到一樣,我們電子簽證法成本委員會通過了之後會發布實施,因為它是有電子簽證跟數位簽證的,所以它已經是有第三方的這個憑證在那裡發的,所以它已經如果要用數位簽證就已經證實它是本人了,應該就我們在初步的構想是驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論了。"},{"start":156.383,"end":176.92,"text":"那為什麼其實他們的這個網絡上黃牛的猖獗的行為其實還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止我覺得是雖然我們的這個文創法其實在去年我們的6月其實已經開始有做一些調整跟修法的部分這個是利益是良善的啦但是問題是對於黃牛真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎"},{"start":178.315,"end":192.721,"text":"我們來看一下我們自己本身在這個第10條之一有講到以不正當的取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的一個行為加以規範但是其實在另外在我們的明確的規定當中"},{"start":194.122,"end":194.282,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":214.961,"end":232.772,"text":"這個部分是這樣在加價的部分它的關鍵是它的加價是加在票面價格還是加在票價上還是說是第三方獲得剛剛委員提到的油資、交通費因為販售這個二手票而增加了這個費用它基本上因為是第三方所以不會計入這個票價所以它的確要透過個案來做認定"},{"start":233.993,"end":243.44,"text":"好我們現在其實在檢舉黃牛的部分其實大部分都是所謂的被動的接到案子檢舉的對不對我們並沒有主動的去出擊為什麼我們來看一下整個所有的檢舉的一個流程包含我的座位區必填包含我選位的位置必填但現在黃牛其實沒有這麼笨喔"},{"start":256.829,"end":267.76,"text":"他其實都會叫一般人你先把錢匯給我我之後等到你拿到票而且我只告訴你我大概是哪一個我們來看一下這個對話這個對話是真的"},{"start":271.733,"end":287.237,"text":"除了炸雞以外可是我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎我們在整個所有的檢舉的流程是這麼的繁複我們怎麼期待他們都成案呢沒有辦法找到本人沒有辦法找到賣票的人所以這是為什麼一定要座位號因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄嘛所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號你才有辦法取得買票人的資料這是一個關鍵"},{"start":295.979,"end":296.479,"text":"臺北市政府為例"},{"start":315.993,"end":341.288,"text":"我們的議員苗博雅他也質詢了這個臺北市政府的一個教育局那個文化局他提到10個月下來開罰率只有1%總共檢舉的案件753件當中只有8件開罰這中間到底出了什麼狀況就是他們基本上他掌握不到整個黃牛的一個資訊那這個部分我們怎麼跨部會來做解決啊"},{"start":342.288,"end":360.524,"text":"這個部分的確是受限於這個整體來說要裁罰就是罪行法定所以你一定要取得確實的這個當事人的資料才能夠進行裁罰這也是整個在黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票的話尤其是現在其實很多的表演的場合"},{"start":361.425,"end":361.485,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":382.196,"end":405.586,"text":"以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況我不相信員額會分配不了但是我相信文化局其實在跟文化部這邊我們訂立這樣子的一個修法的一個整個所有的關鍵之後是不是沒有一個統一的告訴他們我們的一個統一的準則是什麼讓他們真的沒有方法所以成案率只有1%只有8件開罰"},{"start":408.447,"end":428.215,"text":"跟委員報告其實在方法上我們大概就是一再的協調跟做說明因為他大概有幾個關鍵比如說你要售票平台要提供買售人的這個資料你要跟警方確認這個個資的真實性要跟電信業者調手機或者甚至是知道他的銀行帳號等等那像這些方法他都是可能調查的方法"},{"start":428.695,"end":428.735,"text":"主席"},{"start":458.897,"end":461.114,"text":"那這個部分是不是應該要來解決啊?"},{"start":463.556,"end":491.607,"text":"主要是他還是牽涉到法院的依據因為他算是一個比較強力要求人民的權利事項等於是你要求他交出這些個資所以這個部分所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉因為我們在檢舉的過程當中那個流程這麼的繁複其實到最後就變成所謂的不成案的成立可是在主動的調查裡面因為也沒有個資因為就算他在社群上刊登但你也沒有辦法取得那刊登者"},{"start":492.287,"end":492.567,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":515.014,"end":528.994,"text":"在我們3月21日他決定升息半碼．對於很多的文創、戲劇產出的業者來講．他們包含如果是三百萬、三千萬的一個貸款．光升息半碼每個月就要增加3125元．"},{"start":531.297,"end":559.267,"text":"那這個部分其實我們提供的這樣子的一個有人來澄清的這樣一個狀況我們是不是可以建議我們的文化部這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款甚至青年創業啟動這個啟動金的一個貸款或者是在疫情之後的振興貸款這樣子就是不要去讓這樣子的文化產業的業者讓他們生息這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助"},{"start":560.506,"end":560.626,"text":"主席"}]}}}}