{"id":151888,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e63ebc48e8c215a554055d9f022d149edd3cba397b1f8b3c9c45ac82267c343f1a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"14:09:24 - 14:17:07","影片長度":"00:07:43","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":463,"end_time":"2024-04-29T14:17:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T14:09:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1363,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（14時9分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長辛苦了，這個法案非常重要，所以已經在委員會進行好幾次的答詢、討論。","我要請部長看一下我們的數據。關於這個法案，我特別整理從109年到112年相關的數據，被處以6個月以下有期徒刑其實占了20%，可以易科罰金；被判2年以下的人數，以112年為例，總共占了59%，將近六成，有很高的機會可以被判緩刑。部長，我一直在跟你討論矯正的效果到底好不好，被判2年以下其實很多都可以用保護管束的方式，但是保護管束的觀護員每個月訪視1次或約談1次，這樣的矯正到底有沒有很好的效果？我們在這邊討論很多次，上次您在這邊跟我的答詢，我們覺得恐怕效果……包括從國外的資料，我們都覺得好像效果不是那麼好，還有輔導教育上我們如何加強，所以這幾個部分處2年以下的有很多都被判緩刑，無論是保護管束也好或輔導教育，我們如何把它調整得更好、未來再犯的機會可以減少，其實一直是這個法案我關注的焦點。","當然在這一次修法過程當中很多委員也都提出來，未來將處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑不得易科罰金，緩刑的機會也減少，這個部分我是支持的，但是未來如何減少再犯，有效的矯正治療一直是我關注的，所以這個部分我必須還是要提，就是我們看到兒少性剝削犯罪中，具戀童癖者占的比例大概有三成到六成，對這些兒少性剝削的犯罪者，我們如何施以好的、適當的治療矯正方式，這個才是真正釜底抽薪的方法，所以上次我們在這個地方答詢的時候，您回答我說你們要回去開會討論如何去做差異化的輔導或治療方式，不知道部長您今天來有沒有比較具體的答案？"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上以現在的司法系統，不管是緩起訴或者是緩刑都可以命為治療。"],["李委員彥秀：都有相關的課程，但是你我都承認，我們覺得很多是看看影片簽完名就交差了事，到底效果好不好沒有人知道，你上次也回答我說國外的資料其實我們好像覺得效果沒那麼好。"],["薛部長瑞元：那是對於剛剛委員所提到戀童癖這一種，那個已經治療無效。"],["李委員彥秀：好，所以今天我也要往下再繼續跟您討論，因為我們要防的就是再犯，我也調出一些相關的資料，治療戀童癖者如果有接受過治療，依國外的資料他再犯的機率有5.9%，遠低於完全沒有治療的大概27.8%，這是國外相關的研究資料。所以你認為對於這些戀童癖者有效的治療方式、接受進一步的身心治療方式、好的治療方式，你是不是支持這樣的修法方向？"],["薛部長瑞元：戀童癖其實已經進入到所謂的精神科的診斷……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，這個是專業的部分……"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：您支不支持做有效的、好的心理諮商治療方式？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，但是我要指出來的是，委員提到這個報告其實是2009年的，以現在2023年新的報告來講，它的效果並不好。"],["李委員彥秀：那沒關係，在國際上應該有更好的治療方式嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：不一定，因為從國外的資料……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，所以你的意思是我們就放著、不管了？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是、不是，這中間有一些不一樣的，因為所謂的戀童癖是他的心理狀況，但是他的行為部分有一些就是我們今天在看兒少性剝削防制條例裡面的各種行為態樣，他有製造、他有散布、他有盈利，另外有一些是持有……"],["李委員彥秀：我是指犯罪者，因為……"],["薛部長瑞元：這些都犯罪。"],["李委員彥秀：戀童癖者不一定是犯罪者，他沒有做這些行為他就沒有犯罪。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但我的意思是，當他犯罪了，我們要怎麼樣去協助他做好的矯正治療？這是我今天的重點。"],["薛部長瑞元：戀童癖者他的犯罪行為有時候就是對兒童的侵犯，這種行為要做矯正治療會有一些困難，但是以持有影片的這部分可能不是……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我是指犯罪者要如何協助他，因為有些人他自己知道有，但是如果社會沒有給足夠的資源，因為我們現在還沒有累積足夠的數據、治療的方式來治療這些人，有些人他怕被社會貼標籤，所以不敢講他可能是。我覺得比如德國有一套網路的系統，可以用匿名的方式上網，以保密的方式接受治療，在這些治療的過程當中政府也累積足夠的數據知道未來怎麼樣治療這些人，所以我覺得可以仿照德國的方式，我的意思是對這些犯罪者我們要如何避免他再犯應該要有更積極有效的方法跟方式來處理，藉由這些處理的方式我們也累積足夠醫學上的資訊，未來他沒有犯罪但是他知道他自己有，而我們也可以協助，在這方面有足夠的專業知識來治療，因為德國在2010年的時候，他們剛開始的治療成效也不好，因為他們也沒有足夠的數據怎麼去處理這一塊，所以我今天才提出這樣子的修法方向，我提出來之後，希望我們也可以有一個網路平臺，假設我有、我需要這樣的協助，那未來我們有一個網路的平臺可以秘密的、保密的讓這些人可以接受一些治療，避免他犯罪，這是我今天質詢的重點，也是我修法方向的重點。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，這部分跟委員報告，您在提到的這個就好像是毒癮者，他本身如果有想法、自己想要去戒癮的話，那就是我們希望有一個平臺……"],["李委員彥秀：戒癮政府也要有足夠的資源跟這樣的資訊可以治療他們，但我們這邊現在……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是就是有一個他可以去尋找資源自願勒戒，另外一個是……"],["李委員彥秀：一個是尋找資源，另外一個是現在修法當中我們如何對於這些犯罪者……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，現在委員在講的這個犯罪者是已經進入到司法系統裡面了，他等於是……"],["李委員彥秀：但司法系統裡面矯正治療的效果並不好，所以我再提出來，我希望有有效的、更好的治療方式，所以我才提出來這樣的修法方向，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我了解。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請黃仁委員、黃仁委員，黃仁委員不在。","請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"151888","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151888","tool":"pyannote","id":"151888-pyannote"},"job_id":"pr62sQpDYbuhZ0Oa","queued_at":"2024-05-31 15:38:16","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 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{\"word\": \"?\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 460.164, \"end\": 460.445, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 460.445, \"end\": 460.465, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:04,770 --> 00:00:07,912\n請學部長。部長辛苦了,這個法案非常重要,所以已經在委員會好幾次的答詢討論。要請部長看一下我們的數據,這個法案其實我特別整理從109年到112年,相關的數據被處以\n\n2\n00:00:32,945 --> 00:00:50,954\n六個月以下有期徒刑其實有佔了百分之二十,可以一顆罰金。那被判兩年以下加起來以一百一十二年為例,總共佔了百分之五十九,將近佔六成,有很高的機會可以被判緩刑。部長,我一直在跟你討論,\n\n3\n00:01:11,661 --> 00:01:28,164\n有沒有有很好的效果?我們在這邊討論很多次,就上次您在這邊跟我們答詢,我們覺得恐怕效果包括從國外的資料我們都覺得好像效果不是那麼好,包括在輔導的教育上我們如何加強。\n\n4\n00:01:29,185 --> 00:01:45,174\n所以這幾個部分在201以下很多都被判緩刑,無論是保護管束也好、輔導教育,我們如何把它調整得更好,對於未來再犯的機會可以減少,其實一直是在這個法案當中我關注的焦點。\n\n5\n00:01:45,794 --> 00:02:00,632\n而在這一次修法的過程當中,很多委員也都提出來未來將處一年以上、七年以下的有期徒刑。這個部分就不得一顆罰金,緩刑的機會也減少。這個部分我是支持的,但是未來如何減少再犯\n\n6\n00:02:23,656 --> 00:02:41,667\nadequate治療矯正方式這個才是真正釜底抽薪的方法所以上次我們在這個地方答詢的時候您回答我說你們要回去開會討論如何去做差異化的輔導或治療的方式不知道部長您今天來有沒有比較具體的答案\n\n7\n00:02:42,946 --> 00:02:52,622\n事實上以現在的司法系統,不管你是緩起訴或緩刑,都可以命為治療。\n\n8\n00:02:55,458 --> 00:03:16,998\n都有相關的課程但是你我都承認我們覺得很多看看影片千萬名就交差了事我們覺得到底效果好不好沒有人知道你上次有回答我說國外的資料其實我們好像覺得效果好像沒那麼好那個是對於剛剛委員所提到戀童癖這一種那個已經治療無效了\n\n9\n00:03:18,038 --> 00:03:43,443\n所以今天我也要往下再繼續跟您討論因為我們要防的就是再犯那我也調出一些相關的資料就是說治療戀童癖者再犯的如果有接受過治療國外的資料他再犯的機率有5.9遠低於完全沒有治療大概佔27.8%在國外相關的研究資料所以你認為\n\n10\n00:03:45,363 --> 00:03:53,815\n對於這些戀童僻者有效的治療方式接受進一步的身心治療方式好的治療方式你是不是支持這樣的修法方向?\n\n11\n00:03:55,307 --> 00:04:19,080\n而這個戀童癖它其實是已經進入到所謂的精神科的一個診斷了。我知道這個是專業的部分。您支持不支持就是做有效的、有效好的心理諮商治療方式?我要指出來就是說委員提到的這一個報告的話其實是2009年的。那以現在2023年新的報告來講的話它的效果並不好。\n\n12\n00:04:19,887 --> 00:04:43,562\n沒關係沒關係我們應該在國際上應該有更好的治療方式嗎?不一定因為從國外的資料部長那所以你的意思是說我們就放著不管了不是不是這中間有一些不一樣的有一些因為這個所謂煉銅壁我們是他的心理狀況但是他的行為行為的部分的話有一些就是\n\n13\n00:04:44,443 --> 00:05:07,806\n我們今天在看兒童及少年性剝削條例裡面的這種各種行為,它有製造、它有散佈、它有營利。我是指說犯罪者,因為練紅皮者他不一定是犯罪者,他沒有做這些行為,他就沒有犯罪。但我的意思是說,當他犯罪了,我們怎麼樣去協助他做好的矯正治療,是我今天的重點。\n\n14\n00:05:08,827 --> 00:05:16,016\n議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。\n\n15\n00:05:29,691 --> 00:05:55,529\n如果我們社會沒有給足夠的資源因為我們現在還沒有累積有足夠的數據治療的方式來去治療這些人有些人他怕被社會被貼標籤所以他不敢講他可能是所以我覺得像比如說德國他們有一套網路的系統可以匿名的方式可以上網保密的方式接受治療在這些治療的過程當中政府也累積足夠的數據知道未來怎麼樣治療這些人\n\n16\n00:05:56,309 --> 00:06:13,347\n所以我覺得可以仿照德國的方式我的意思是說這些犯罪者我們如何避免再犯我們應該要有更積極有效的方法跟方式來去處理那我們藉著這些處理的方式我們也累積足夠的資訊醫學上的資訊未來\n\n17\n00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:16,150\n議員林岱樺等20人擬具\n\n18\n00:06:34,426 --> 00:06:58,220\n那我也提出來說,我也希望我們也可以有一個網路平台,因為假設比如說我有,那我需要這樣的協助幫助。那未來我們有一個網路的平台,可以秘密的、可以保密的讓這些人也可以接受一些治療,避免他犯罪。這是我今天質詢的重點,也是我修法方向的重點。這個部分我跟委員報告,您剛才提到的時候,就好像是讀癮,讀癮者。\n\n19\n00:07:00,481 --> 00:07:29,054\n他本身如果他自己有想法他自己想要去做戒癮的話那就是我們希望有一個平台戒癮政府也要足夠的資源跟這樣的資訊可以治療他們但我們這邊現在但是就是有一個他可以去尋找資源來自願來做戒癮一個是尋找資源一個是現任修法當中我們如何對於這些人犯罪者對阿這現在委員在講的這個犯罪者的話是皆有已經進入到司法系統裡面了\n\n20\n00:07:29,554 --> 00:07:40,465\n但司法系統裡面的矯正治療效果並不好,所以我再提出來,我希望有有效的更好的治療方式,所以我才提出來這樣的修法方向,好不好?好,謝謝部長。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4770\t7912\t請學部長。部長辛苦了,這個法案非常重要,所以已經在委員會好幾次的答詢討論。要請部長看一下我們的數據,這個法案其實我特別整理從109年到112年,相關的數據被處以\n32945\t50954\t六個月以下有期徒刑其實有佔了百分之二十,可以一顆罰金。那被判兩年以下加起來以一百一十二年為例,總共佔了百分之五十九,將近佔六成,有很高的機會可以被判緩刑。部長,我一直在跟你討論,\n52295\t71561\t\n71661\t88164\t有沒有有很好的效果?我們在這邊討論很多次,就上次您在這邊跟我們答詢,我們覺得恐怕效果包括從國外的資料我們都覺得好像效果不是那麼好,包括在輔導的教育上我們如何加強。\n89185\t105174\t所以這幾個部分在201以下很多都被判緩刑,無論是保護管束也好、輔導教育,我們如何把它調整得更好,對於未來再犯的機會可以減少,其實一直是在這個法案當中我關注的焦點。\n105794\t120632\t而在這一次修法的過程當中,很多委員也都提出來未來將處一年以上、七年以下的有期徒刑。這個部分就不得一顆罰金,緩刑的機會也減少。這個部分我是支持的,但是未來如何減少再犯\n122534\t143456\t\n143656\t161667\tadequate治療矯正方式這個才是真正釜底抽薪的方法所以上次我們在這個地方答詢的時候您回答我說你們要回去開會討論如何去做差異化的輔導或治療的方式不知道部長您今天來有沒有比較具體的答案\n162946\t172622\t事實上以現在的司法系統,不管你是緩起訴或緩刑,都可以命為治療。\n175458\t196998\t都有相關的課程但是你我都承認我們覺得很多看看影片千萬名就交差了事我們覺得到底效果好不好沒有人知道你上次有回答我說國外的資料其實我們好像覺得效果好像沒那麼好那個是對於剛剛委員所提到戀童癖這一種那個已經治療無效了\n198038\t223443\t所以今天我也要往下再繼續跟您討論因為我們要防的就是再犯那我也調出一些相關的資料就是說治療戀童癖者再犯的如果有接受過治療國外的資料他再犯的機率有5.9遠低於完全沒有治療大概佔27.8%在國外相關的研究資料所以你認為\n225363\t233815\t對於這些戀童僻者有效的治療方式接受進一步的身心治療方式好的治療方式你是不是支持這樣的修法方向?\n235307\t259080\t而這個戀童癖它其實是已經進入到所謂的精神科的一個診斷了。我知道這個是專業的部分。您支持不支持就是做有效的、有效好的心理諮商治療方式?我要指出來就是說委員提到的這一個報告的話其實是2009年的。那以現在2023年新的報告來講的話它的效果並不好。\n259887\t283562\t沒關係沒關係我們應該在國際上應該有更好的治療方式嗎?不一定因為從國外的資料部長那所以你的意思是說我們就放著不管了不是不是這中間有一些不一樣的有一些因為這個所謂煉銅壁我們是他的心理狀況但是他的行為行為的部分的話有一些就是\n284443\t307806\t我們今天在看兒童及少年性剝削條例裡面的這種各種行為,它有製造、它有散佈、它有營利。我是指說犯罪者,因為練紅皮者他不一定是犯罪者,他沒有做這些行為,他就沒有犯罪。但我的意思是說,當他犯罪了,我們怎麼樣去協助他做好的矯正治療,是我今天的重點。\n308827\t316016\t議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。\n329691\t355529\t如果我們社會沒有給足夠的資源因為我們現在還沒有累積有足夠的數據治療的方式來去治療這些人有些人他怕被社會被貼標籤所以他不敢講他可能是所以我覺得像比如說德國他們有一套網路的系統可以匿名的方式可以上網保密的方式接受治療在這些治療的過程當中政府也累積足夠的數據知道未來怎麼樣治療這些人\n356309\t373347\t所以我覺得可以仿照德國的方式我的意思是說這些犯罪者我們如何避免再犯我們應該要有更積極有效的方法跟方式來去處理那我們藉著這些處理的方式我們也累積足夠的資訊醫學上的資訊未來\n375990\t376150\t議員林岱樺等20人擬具\n394426\t418220\t那我也提出來說,我也希望我們也可以有一個網路平台,因為假設比如說我有,那我需要這樣的協助幫助。那未來我們有一個網路的平台,可以秘密的、可以保密的讓這些人也可以接受一些治療,避免他犯罪。這是我今天質詢的重點,也是我修法方向的重點。這個部分我跟委員報告,您剛才提到的時候,就好像是讀癮,讀癮者。\n420481\t449054\t他本身如果他自己有想法他自己想要去做戒癮的話那就是我們希望有一個平台戒癮政府也要足夠的資源跟這樣的資訊可以治療他們但我們這邊現在但是就是有一個他可以去尋找資源來自願來做戒癮一個是尋找資源一個是現任修法當中我們如何對於這些人犯罪者對阿這現在委員在講的這個犯罪者的話是皆有已經進入到司法系統裡面了\n449554\t460465\t但司法系統裡面的矯正治療效果並不好,所以我再提出來,我希望有有效的更好的治療方式,所以我才提出來這樣的修法方向,好不好?好,謝謝部長。\n","txt":"請學部長。部長辛苦了,這個法案非常重要,所以已經在委員會好幾次的答詢討論。要請部長看一下我們的數據,這個法案其實我特別整理從109年到112年,相關的數據被處以\n六個月以下有期徒刑其實有佔了百分之二十,可以一顆罰金。那被判兩年以下加起來以一百一十二年為例,總共佔了百分之五十九,將近佔六成,有很高的機會可以被判緩刑。部長,我一直在跟你討論,\n\n有沒有有很好的效果?我們在這邊討論很多次,就上次您在這邊跟我們答詢,我們覺得恐怕效果包括從國外的資料我們都覺得好像效果不是那麼好,包括在輔導的教育上我們如何加強。\n所以這幾個部分在201以下很多都被判緩刑,無論是保護管束也好、輔導教育,我們如何把它調整得更好,對於未來再犯的機會可以減少,其實一直是在這個法案當中我關注的焦點。\n而在這一次修法的過程當中,很多委員也都提出來未來將處一年以上、七年以下的有期徒刑。這個部分就不得一顆罰金,緩刑的機會也減少。這個部分我是支持的,但是未來如何減少再犯\n\nadequate治療矯正方式這個才是真正釜底抽薪的方法所以上次我們在這個地方答詢的時候您回答我說你們要回去開會討論如何去做差異化的輔導或治療的方式不知道部長您今天來有沒有比較具體的答案\n事實上以現在的司法系統,不管你是緩起訴或緩刑,都可以命為治療。\n都有相關的課程但是你我都承認我們覺得很多看看影片千萬名就交差了事我們覺得到底效果好不好沒有人知道你上次有回答我說國外的資料其實我們好像覺得效果好像沒那麼好那個是對於剛剛委員所提到戀童癖這一種那個已經治療無效了\n所以今天我也要往下再繼續跟您討論因為我們要防的就是再犯那我也調出一些相關的資料就是說治療戀童癖者再犯的如果有接受過治療國外的資料他再犯的機率有5.9遠低於完全沒有治療大概佔27.8%在國外相關的研究資料所以你認為\n對於這些戀童僻者有效的治療方式接受進一步的身心治療方式好的治療方式你是不是支持這樣的修法方向?\n而這個戀童癖它其實是已經進入到所謂的精神科的一個診斷了。我知道這個是專業的部分。您支持不支持就是做有效的、有效好的心理諮商治療方式?我要指出來就是說委員提到的這一個報告的話其實是2009年的。那以現在2023年新的報告來講的話它的效果並不好。\n沒關係沒關係我們應該在國際上應該有更好的治療方式嗎?不一定因為從國外的資料部長那所以你的意思是說我們就放著不管了不是不是這中間有一些不一樣的有一些因為這個所謂煉銅壁我們是他的心理狀況但是他的行為行為的部分的話有一些就是\n我們今天在看兒童及少年性剝削條例裡面的這種各種行為,它有製造、它有散佈、它有營利。我是指說犯罪者,因為練紅皮者他不一定是犯罪者,他沒有做這些行為,他就沒有犯罪。但我的意思是說,當他犯罪了,我們怎麼樣去協助他做好的矯正治療,是我今天的重點。\n議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。\n如果我們社會沒有給足夠的資源因為我們現在還沒有累積有足夠的數據治療的方式來去治療這些人有些人他怕被社會被貼標籤所以他不敢講他可能是所以我覺得像比如說德國他們有一套網路的系統可以匿名的方式可以上網保密的方式接受治療在這些治療的過程當中政府也累積足夠的數據知道未來怎麼樣治療這些人\n所以我覺得可以仿照德國的方式我的意思是說這些犯罪者我們如何避免再犯我們應該要有更積極有效的方法跟方式來去處理那我們藉著這些處理的方式我們也累積足夠的資訊醫學上的資訊未來\n議員林岱樺等20人擬具\n那我也提出來說,我也希望我們也可以有一個網路平台,因為假設比如說我有,那我需要這樣的協助幫助。那未來我們有一個網路的平台,可以秘密的、可以保密的讓這些人也可以接受一些治療,避免他犯罪。這是我今天質詢的重點,也是我修法方向的重點。這個部分我跟委員報告,您剛才提到的時候,就好像是讀癮,讀癮者。\n他本身如果他自己有想法他自己想要去做戒癮的話那就是我們希望有一個平台戒癮政府也要足夠的資源跟這樣的資訊可以治療他們但我們這邊現在但是就是有一個他可以去尋找資源來自願來做戒癮一個是尋找資源一個是現任修法當中我們如何對於這些人犯罪者對阿這現在委員在講的這個犯罪者的話是皆有已經進入到司法系統裡面了\n但司法系統裡面的矯正治療效果並不好,所以我再提出來,我希望有有效的更好的治療方式,所以我才提出來這樣的修法方向,好不好?好,謝謝部長。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.770 --> 00:07.912\n請學部長。部長辛苦了,這個法案非常重要,所以已經在委員會好幾次的答詢討論。要請部長看一下我們的數據,這個法案其實我特別整理從109年到112年,相關的數據被處以\n\n00:32.945 --> 00:50.954\n六個月以下有期徒刑其實有佔了百分之二十,可以一顆罰金。那被判兩年以下加起來以一百一十二年為例,總共佔了百分之五十九,將近佔六成,有很高的機會可以被判緩刑。部長,我一直在跟你討論,\n\n01:11.661 --> 01:28.164\n有沒有有很好的效果?我們在這邊討論很多次,就上次您在這邊跟我們答詢,我們覺得恐怕效果包括從國外的資料我們都覺得好像效果不是那麼好,包括在輔導的教育上我們如何加強。\n\n01:29.185 --> 01:45.174\n所以這幾個部分在201以下很多都被判緩刑,無論是保護管束也好、輔導教育,我們如何把它調整得更好,對於未來再犯的機會可以減少,其實一直是在這個法案當中我關注的焦點。\n\n01:45.794 --> 02:00.632\n而在這一次修法的過程當中,很多委員也都提出來未來將處一年以上、七年以下的有期徒刑。這個部分就不得一顆罰金,緩刑的機會也減少。這個部分我是支持的,但是未來如何減少再犯\n\n02:23.656 --> 02:41.667\nadequate治療矯正方式這個才是真正釜底抽薪的方法所以上次我們在這個地方答詢的時候您回答我說你們要回去開會討論如何去做差異化的輔導或治療的方式不知道部長您今天來有沒有比較具體的答案\n\n02:42.946 --> 02:52.622\n事實上以現在的司法系統,不管你是緩起訴或緩刑,都可以命為治療。\n\n02:55.458 --> 03:16.998\n都有相關的課程但是你我都承認我們覺得很多看看影片千萬名就交差了事我們覺得到底效果好不好沒有人知道你上次有回答我說國外的資料其實我們好像覺得效果好像沒那麼好那個是對於剛剛委員所提到戀童癖這一種那個已經治療無效了\n\n03:18.038 --> 03:43.443\n所以今天我也要往下再繼續跟您討論因為我們要防的就是再犯那我也調出一些相關的資料就是說治療戀童癖者再犯的如果有接受過治療國外的資料他再犯的機率有5.9遠低於完全沒有治療大概佔27.8%在國外相關的研究資料所以你認為\n\n03:45.363 --> 03:53.815\n對於這些戀童僻者有效的治療方式接受進一步的身心治療方式好的治療方式你是不是支持這樣的修法方向?\n\n03:55.307 --> 04:19.080\n而這個戀童癖它其實是已經進入到所謂的精神科的一個診斷了。我知道這個是專業的部分。您支持不支持就是做有效的、有效好的心理諮商治療方式?我要指出來就是說委員提到的這一個報告的話其實是2009年的。那以現在2023年新的報告來講的話它的效果並不好。\n\n04:19.887 --> 04:43.562\n沒關係沒關係我們應該在國際上應該有更好的治療方式嗎?不一定因為從國外的資料部長那所以你的意思是說我們就放著不管了不是不是這中間有一些不一樣的有一些因為這個所謂煉銅壁我們是他的心理狀況但是他的行為行為的部分的話有一些就是\n\n04:44.443 --> 05:07.806\n我們今天在看兒童及少年性剝削條例裡面的這種各種行為,它有製造、它有散佈、它有營利。我是指說犯罪者,因為練紅皮者他不一定是犯罪者,他沒有做這些行為,他就沒有犯罪。但我的意思是說,當他犯罪了,我們怎麼樣去協助他做好的矯正治療,是我今天的重點。\n\n05:08.827 --> 05:16.016\n議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。\n\n05:29.691 --> 05:55.529\n如果我們社會沒有給足夠的資源因為我們現在還沒有累積有足夠的數據治療的方式來去治療這些人有些人他怕被社會被貼標籤所以他不敢講他可能是所以我覺得像比如說德國他們有一套網路的系統可以匿名的方式可以上網保密的方式接受治療在這些治療的過程當中政府也累積足夠的數據知道未來怎麼樣治療這些人\n\n05:56.309 --> 06:13.347\n所以我覺得可以仿照德國的方式我的意思是說這些犯罪者我們如何避免再犯我們應該要有更積極有效的方法跟方式來去處理那我們藉著這些處理的方式我們也累積足夠的資訊醫學上的資訊未來\n\n06:15.990 --> 06:16.150\n議員林岱樺等20人擬具\n\n06:34.426 --> 06:58.220\n那我也提出來說,我也希望我們也可以有一個網路平台,因為假設比如說我有,那我需要這樣的協助幫助。那未來我們有一個網路的平台,可以秘密的、可以保密的讓這些人也可以接受一些治療,避免他犯罪。這是我今天質詢的重點,也是我修法方向的重點。這個部分我跟委員報告,您剛才提到的時候,就好像是讀癮,讀癮者。\n\n07:00.481 --> 07:29.054\n他本身如果他自己有想法他自己想要去做戒癮的話那就是我們希望有一個平台戒癮政府也要足夠的資源跟這樣的資訊可以治療他們但我們這邊現在但是就是有一個他可以去尋找資源來自願來做戒癮一個是尋找資源一個是現任修法當中我們如何對於這些人犯罪者對阿這現在委員在講的這個犯罪者的話是皆有已經進入到司法系統裡面了\n\n07:29.554 --> 07:40.465\n但司法系統裡面的矯正治療效果並不好,所以我再提出來,我希望有有效的更好的治療方式,所以我才提出來這樣的修法方向,好不好?好,謝謝部長。\n\n","segments":[{"start":4.77,"end":7.912,"text":"請學部長。部長辛苦了,這個法案非常重要,所以已經在委員會好幾次的答詢討論。要請部長看一下我們的數據,這個法案其實我特別整理從109年到112年,相關的數據被處以"},{"start":32.945,"end":50.954,"text":"六個月以下有期徒刑其實有佔了百分之二十,可以一顆罰金。那被判兩年以下加起來以一百一十二年為例,總共佔了百分之五十九,將近佔六成,有很高的機會可以被判緩刑。部長,我一直在跟你討論,"},{"start":52.295,"end":71.561,"text":""},{"start":71.661,"end":88.164,"text":"有沒有有很好的效果?我們在這邊討論很多次,就上次您在這邊跟我們答詢,我們覺得恐怕效果包括從國外的資料我們都覺得好像效果不是那麼好,包括在輔導的教育上我們如何加強。"},{"start":89.185,"end":105.174,"text":"所以這幾個部分在201以下很多都被判緩刑,無論是保護管束也好、輔導教育,我們如何把它調整得更好,對於未來再犯的機會可以減少,其實一直是在這個法案當中我關注的焦點。"},{"start":105.794,"end":120.632,"text":"而在這一次修法的過程當中,很多委員也都提出來未來將處一年以上、七年以下的有期徒刑。這個部分就不得一顆罰金,緩刑的機會也減少。這個部分我是支持的,但是未來如何減少再犯"},{"start":122.534,"end":143.456,"text":""},{"start":143.656,"end":161.667,"text":"adequate治療矯正方式這個才是真正釜底抽薪的方法所以上次我們在這個地方答詢的時候您回答我說你們要回去開會討論如何去做差異化的輔導或治療的方式不知道部長您今天來有沒有比較具體的答案"},{"start":162.946,"end":172.622,"text":"事實上以現在的司法系統,不管你是緩起訴或緩刑,都可以命為治療。"},{"start":175.458,"end":196.998,"text":"都有相關的課程但是你我都承認我們覺得很多看看影片千萬名就交差了事我們覺得到底效果好不好沒有人知道你上次有回答我說國外的資料其實我們好像覺得效果好像沒那麼好那個是對於剛剛委員所提到戀童癖這一種那個已經治療無效了"},{"start":198.038,"end":223.443,"text":"所以今天我也要往下再繼續跟您討論因為我們要防的就是再犯那我也調出一些相關的資料就是說治療戀童癖者再犯的如果有接受過治療國外的資料他再犯的機率有5.9遠低於完全沒有治療大概佔27.8%在國外相關的研究資料所以你認為"},{"start":225.363,"end":233.815,"text":"對於這些戀童僻者有效的治療方式接受進一步的身心治療方式好的治療方式你是不是支持這樣的修法方向?"},{"start":235.307,"end":259.08,"text":"而這個戀童癖它其實是已經進入到所謂的精神科的一個診斷了。我知道這個是專業的部分。您支持不支持就是做有效的、有效好的心理諮商治療方式?我要指出來就是說委員提到的這一個報告的話其實是2009年的。那以現在2023年新的報告來講的話它的效果並不好。"},{"start":259.887,"end":283.562,"text":"沒關係沒關係我們應該在國際上應該有更好的治療方式嗎?不一定因為從國外的資料部長那所以你的意思是說我們就放著不管了不是不是這中間有一些不一樣的有一些因為這個所謂煉銅壁我們是他的心理狀況但是他的行為行為的部分的話有一些就是"},{"start":284.443,"end":307.806,"text":"我們今天在看兒童及少年性剝削條例裡面的這種各種行為,它有製造、它有散佈、它有營利。我是指說犯罪者,因為練紅皮者他不一定是犯罪者,他沒有做這些行為,他就沒有犯罪。但我的意思是說,當他犯罪了,我們怎麼樣去協助他做好的矯正治療,是我今天的重點。"},{"start":308.827,"end":316.016,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":329.691,"end":355.529,"text":"如果我們社會沒有給足夠的資源因為我們現在還沒有累積有足夠的數據治療的方式來去治療這些人有些人他怕被社會被貼標籤所以他不敢講他可能是所以我覺得像比如說德國他們有一套網路的系統可以匿名的方式可以上網保密的方式接受治療在這些治療的過程當中政府也累積足夠的數據知道未來怎麼樣治療這些人"},{"start":356.309,"end":373.347,"text":"所以我覺得可以仿照德國的方式我的意思是說這些犯罪者我們如何避免再犯我們應該要有更積極有效的方法跟方式來去處理那我們藉著這些處理的方式我們也累積足夠的資訊醫學上的資訊未來"},{"start":375.99,"end":376.15,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":394.426,"end":418.22,"text":"那我也提出來說,我也希望我們也可以有一個網路平台,因為假設比如說我有,那我需要這樣的協助幫助。那未來我們有一個網路的平台,可以秘密的、可以保密的讓這些人也可以接受一些治療,避免他犯罪。這是我今天質詢的重點,也是我修法方向的重點。這個部分我跟委員報告,您剛才提到的時候,就好像是讀癮,讀癮者。"},{"start":420.481,"end":449.054,"text":"他本身如果他自己有想法他自己想要去做戒癮的話那就是我們希望有一個平台戒癮政府也要足夠的資源跟這樣的資訊可以治療他們但我們這邊現在但是就是有一個他可以去尋找資源來自願來做戒癮一個是尋找資源一個是現任修法當中我們如何對於這些人犯罪者對阿這現在委員在講的這個犯罪者的話是皆有已經進入到司法系統裡面了"},{"start":449.554,"end":460.465,"text":"但司法系統裡面的矯正治療效果並不好,所以我再提出來,我希望有有效的更好的治療方式,所以我才提出來這樣的修法方向,好不好?好,謝謝部長。"}]}}}}