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00:00:53,299\n那麼會有一個機密的限制,那麼這個機密呢,如果是絕對機密者呢,是5年,那麼如果是即機密是4年,機密為3年,這樣的一個年限的限制,我想請問一下局長,包括這個法案的制定的過程,它的用意是在哪裡?\n\n4\n00:00:54,364 --> 00:01:19,558\n對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在附入之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到附入期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性\n\n5\n00:01:20,058 --> 00:01:48,345\n所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排\n\n6\n00:01:48,965 --> 00:02:04,203\n本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員\n\n7\n00:02:07,947 --> 00:02:23,761\n官員藐視國會這個部分要關三年但是事實上我自己個人一直認為國會改革的面向有很多不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢包括什麼還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己\n\n8\n00:02:25,002 --> 00:02:46,675\n國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告過\n\n9\n00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:55,582\n行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準\n\n10\n00:03:08,817 --> 00:03:33,064\n主要才和權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的才和包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為\n\n11\n00:03:34,284 --> 00:03:38,491\n我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議\n\n12\n00:03:40,191 --> 00:04:03,585\n除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話齁\n\n13\n00:04:05,387 --> 00:04:22,086\n我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去\n\n14\n00:04:22,967 --> 00:04:45,845\n然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢?\n\n15\n00:04:47,402 --> 00:05:12,157\n我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常樂意\n\n16\n00:05:12,517 --> 00:05:38,038\n好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央衛生委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。\n\n17\n00:05:39,813 --> 00:05:51,440\n我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份\n\n18\n00:06:02,041 --> 00:06:08,387\n對,委員剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論\n\n19\n00:06:24,582 --> 00:06:28,043\n我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論那國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話\n\n20\n00:06:51,252 --> 00:07:12,529\n過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本、韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都有通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢\n\n21\n00:07:13,830 --> 00:07:39,275\n所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任\n\n22\n00:07:43,817 --> 00:07:50,816\n請林主任報告委員長\n\n23\n00:07:52,024 --> 00:08:10,628\n林主委有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料\n\n24\n00:08:17,389 --> 00:08:38,008\n又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為\n\n25\n00:08:40,370 --> 00:08:57,018\n發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於呢行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全\n\n26\n00:08:58,847 --> 00:09:14,400\n是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術\n\n27\n00:09:17,242 --> 00:09:43,945\n集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDoS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導\n\n28\n00:09:48,248 --> 00:09:57,212\n因為時間已經到了那麼有關於在協助媒體建構更安全的系統的部分如果你們有一些後續的資料是不是可以提供給我的辦公室\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n330\t2733\t謝謝主席 主席我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 臨委員長\n12744\t36527\t早安我們來討論一個就是有關於國家安全的部分我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的那麼就是我們知道其實接觸了機敏的資料的話那麼對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講的話那麼一定如果到所謂中國的話都有它的限制那這個以國防部的話是在現役或退職人員當中只要進入所謂的大陸地區的話\n37668\t53299\t那麼會有一個機密的限制,那麼這個機密呢,如果是絕對機密者呢,是5年,那麼如果是即機密是4年,機密為3年,這樣的一個年限的限制,我想請問一下局長,包括這個法案的制定的過程,它的用意是在哪裡?\n54364\t79558\t對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在附入之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到附入期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性\n80058\t108345\t所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排\n108965\t124203\t本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員\n127947\t143761\t官員藐視國會這個部分要關三年但是事實上我自己個人一直認為國會改革的面向有很多不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢包括什麼還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己\n145002\t166675\t國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告過\n173800\t175582\t行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準\n188817\t213064\t主要才和權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的才和包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為\n214284\t218491\t我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議\n220191\t243585\t除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話齁\n245387\t262086\t我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去\n262967\t285845\t然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢?\n287402\t312157\t我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常樂意\n312517\t338038\t好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央衛生委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。\n339813\t351440\t我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份\n362041\t368387\t對,委員剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論\n384582\t388043\t我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論那國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話\n411252\t432529\t過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本、韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都有通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢\n433830\t459275\t所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任\n463817\t470816\t請林主任報告委員長\n472024\t490628\t林主委有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料\n497389\t518008\t又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為\n520370\t537018\t發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於呢行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全\n538847\t554400\t是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術\n557242\t583945\t集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDoS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導\n588248\t597212\t因為時間已經到了那麼有關於在協助媒體建構更安全的系統的部分如果你們有一些後續的資料是不是可以提供給我的辦公室\n","txt":"謝謝主席 主席我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 臨委員長\n早安我們來討論一個就是有關於國家安全的部分我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的那麼就是我們知道其實接觸了機敏的資料的話那麼對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講的話那麼一定如果到所謂中國的話都有它的限制那這個以國防部的話是在現役或退職人員當中只要進入所謂的大陸地區的話\n那麼會有一個機密的限制,那麼這個機密呢,如果是絕對機密者呢,是5年,那麼如果是即機密是4年,機密為3年,這樣的一個年限的限制,我想請問一下局長,包括這個法案的制定的過程,它的用意是在哪裡?\n對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在附入之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到附入期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性\n所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排\n本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員\n官員藐視國會這個部分要關三年但是事實上我自己個人一直認為國會改革的面向有很多不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢包括什麼還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己\n國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告過\n行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準\n主要才和權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的才和包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為\n我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議\n除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話齁\n我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去\n然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢?\n我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常樂意\n好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央衛生委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。\n我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份\n對,委員剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論\n我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論那國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話\n過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本、韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都有通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢\n所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任\n請林主任報告委員長\n林主委有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料\n又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為\n發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於呢行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全\n是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術\n集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDoS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導\n因為時間已經到了那麼有關於在協助媒體建構更安全的系統的部分如果你們有一些後續的資料是不是可以提供給我的辦公室\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.330 --> 00:02.733\n謝謝主席主席我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長好謝謝主席臨委員長\n\n00:12.744 --> 00:36.527\n早安我們來討論一個就是有關於國家安全的部分我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的那麼就是我們知道其實接觸了機敏的資料的話那麼對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講的話那麼一定如果到所謂中國的話都有它的限制那這個以國防部的話是在現役或退職人員當中只要進入所謂的大陸地區的話\n\n00:37.668 --> 00:53.299\n那麼會有一個機密的限制,那麼這個機密呢,如果是絕對機密者呢,是5年,那麼如果是即機密是4年,機密為3年,這樣的一個年限的限制,我想請問一下局長,包括這個法案的制定的過程,它的用意是在哪裡?\n\n00:54.364 --> 01:19.558\n對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在附入之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到附入期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性\n\n01:20.058 --> 01:48.345\n所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排\n\n01:48.965 --> 02:04.203\n本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員\n\n02:07.947 --> 02:23.761\n官員藐視國會這個部分要關三年但是事實上我自己個人一直認為國會改革的面向有很多不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢包括什麼還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己\n\n02:25.002 --> 02:46.675\n國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告過\n\n02:53.800 --> 02:55.582\n行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準\n\n03:08.817 --> 03:33.064\n主要才和權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的才和包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為\n\n03:34.284 --> 03:38.491\n我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議\n\n03:40.191 --> 04:03.585\n除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話齁\n\n04:05.387 --> 04:22.086\n我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去\n\n04:22.967 --> 04:45.845\n然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢?\n\n04:47.402 --> 05:12.157\n我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常樂意\n\n05:12.517 --> 05:38.038\n好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央衛生委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。\n\n05:39.813 --> 05:51.440\n我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份\n\n06:02.041 --> 06:08.387\n對,委員剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論\n\n06:24.582 --> 06:28.043\n我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論那國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話\n\n06:51.252 --> 07:12.529\n過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本、韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都有通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢\n\n07:13.830 --> 07:39.275\n所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任\n\n07:43.817 --> 07:50.816\n請林主任報告委員長\n\n07:52.024 --> 08:10.628\n林主委有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料\n\n08:17.389 --> 08:38.008\n又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為\n\n08:40.370 --> 08:57.018\n發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於呢行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全\n\n08:58.847 --> 09:14.400\n是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術\n\n09:17.242 --> 09:43.945\n集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDoS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導\n\n09:48.248 --> 09:57.212\n因為時間已經到了那麼有關於在協助媒體建構更安全的系統的部分如果你們有一些後續的資料是不是可以提供給我的辦公室\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.33,"end":2.733,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 臨委員長"},{"start":12.744,"end":36.527,"text":"早安我們來討論一個就是有關於國家安全的部分我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的那麼就是我們知道其實接觸了機敏的資料的話那麼對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講的話那麼一定如果到所謂中國的話都有它的限制那這個以國防部的話是在現役或退職人員當中只要進入所謂的大陸地區的話"},{"start":37.668,"end":53.299,"text":"那麼會有一個機密的限制,那麼這個機密呢,如果是絕對機密者呢,是5年,那麼如果是即機密是4年,機密為3年,這樣的一個年限的限制,我想請問一下局長,包括這個法案的制定的過程,它的用意是在哪裡?"},{"start":54.364,"end":79.558,"text":"對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在附入之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到附入期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性"},{"start":80.058,"end":108.345,"text":"所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排"},{"start":108.965,"end":124.203,"text":"本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員"},{"start":127.947,"end":143.761,"text":"官員藐視國會這個部分要關三年但是事實上我自己個人一直認為國會改革的面向有很多不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢包括什麼還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己"},{"start":145.002,"end":166.675,"text":"國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告過"},{"start":173.8,"end":175.582,"text":"行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準"},{"start":188.817,"end":213.064,"text":"主要才和權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的才和包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為"},{"start":214.284,"end":218.491,"text":"我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議"},{"start":220.191,"end":243.585,"text":"除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話齁"},{"start":245.387,"end":262.086,"text":"我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去"},{"start":262.967,"end":285.845,"text":"然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢?"},{"start":287.402,"end":312.157,"text":"我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常樂意"},{"start":312.517,"end":338.038,"text":"好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央衛生委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。"},{"start":339.813,"end":351.44,"text":"我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份"},{"start":362.041,"end":368.387,"text":"對,委員剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論"},{"start":384.582,"end":388.043,"text":"我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論那國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話"},{"start":411.252,"end":432.529,"text":"過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本、韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都有通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢"},{"start":433.83,"end":459.275,"text":"所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任"},{"start":463.817,"end":470.816,"text":"請林主任報告委員長"},{"start":472.024,"end":490.628,"text":"林主委有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料"},{"start":497.389,"end":518.008,"text":"又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為"},{"start":520.37,"end":537.018,"text":"發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於呢行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全"},{"start":538.847,"end":554.4,"text":"是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術"},{"start":557.242,"end":583.945,"text":"集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDoS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導"},{"start":588.248,"end":597.212,"text":"因為時間已經到了那麼有關於在協助媒體建構更安全的系統的部分如果你們有一些後續的資料是不是可以提供給我的辦公室"}]}}}}