{"id":151926,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151926","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b79d11ad7a63ceedd1853afabeb86d4497f5010e63071191982c21a89343fc3a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:01:07 - 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practice，他們直接去分析他們現在的優勢是什麼、他們的劣勢是什麼，如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話，要做什麼樣的預判，然後制定了章程。","應對臺灣現在所做的應處的話，目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的會報，但是會報能夠涵蓋的層級跟這個有沒有落差，這是第一個；第二個是相關的章程，我記得是國土辦這邊有提到，就是有相關的規範跟章程，簡單來講就是一個類似SOP的東西，這個東西跟所謂的章程能不能夠有best practice？每幾個月相關的單位是不是能夠來做練習？練習時甚至有這種紅藍的對抗，對抗之後，又能夠分析出來，發現我們的弱勢在哪裡，這個機制有沒有在進行？就是業報裡面提到的跟現在我們看到關島在做的有沒有落差？還是非常類似？"],["蔡局長明彥：我先就個案的部分做個補充，就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體，我們有長期在關注，這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體，到底他們的攻擊手法、樣態是什麼，以及他們攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些特定目標，我們都有做一些相關的分析，同時也跟國外的一些相關機關分享我們在情資上所得到的訊息，來做一個比對。我覺得在進行這樣的回應過程當中，怎麼樣建立起跟國際友盟更緊密的合作網絡是非常重要的，這沒有辦法單靠臺灣自己的力量來針對這些中共駭客團體的全球性攻擊來做因應，所以交換資訊跟經驗非常重要。至於我們的應備的相關體制來講，有所謂的政策會報層級，也有所謂的指導綱要部分，針對這種可能的威脅樣態，各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作，也透過必要的演練來強化我們的韌性，大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK。我為什麼問這個問題？當然這可能有點事涉機密，就是我們現在對於中國駭客的分類，譬如說他們前期在做的，可能像中油的這一次可能是APT41，就像剛剛局長提到的，我們今天跟美方或是跟其他國家在分享情報時，當然可以先去分類，去預判這次是APT40還是APT10或是APT41，可以做一些分類。但我剛剛前面講的就是，當我們做完分類之後，有沒有相關的演練？因為要有一個對抗，也就是我們要怎麼去分析我們的優勢、劣勢，並且多久做一次，這個部分如果不宜在這邊講的話，我們就私底下討論，到時候如果要到辦公室討論的話也沒有問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：但就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性，而且可能要廣納更多組織進來。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，很簡單地說明一下，我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練。另外，國安局除了本局以外，也會整合我們相關的國安單位，我沒有記錯的話，我們今年的施訓課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程，施訓完之後會有四千多人次國內國安團隊的資安人員會參與相關的訓練，所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點，謝謝委員提醒。"],["沈委員伯洋：相關的一些民間企業我覺得當然也是可以納入，因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的分類標準，每個人分類標準也不太一樣，APT40、APT41是其中一套，然後也有很多套，所以這個部分大家要怎麼think，我覺得當然是滿重要的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，很重要，我們發生過APT31跟APT41，我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程中，發現我們在界定他們的行為樣態上，好像有不同的見解，也是透過不斷地交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後一個因為時間因素我來不及講，我稍微講一下就好了，最後就是間諜，以間諜來講，現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了，其實在國外都有發生，而對於我們這些高風險人物的控管，剛剛楚茵委員有提到，像是立法委員其實會接觸到非常多的機密。我這邊幫忙update一下，昨天在程序委員會，一樣的案子過了，過了也不是因為他們不擋，是因為他們昨天人數不夠，但是我們還是很希望像這樣的一個法案能夠被討論，在被討論的這個過程當中，因為它一定也會進到國防及外交委員會，希望到時候國安局也能夠提供修法的一些看法，讓我們知道要怎麼去更好的防護間諜去接觸關鍵基礎設施的一些樣貌。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的，有需要我們來提供專業意見，我們來提供，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：下面我們請馬文君委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"151926","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151926","tool":"pyannote","id":"151926-pyannote"},"job_id":"PDXRuyj601atF6ZX","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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248.689, \"text\": \"在過去兩個月跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 223.088, \"end\": 223.429, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 223.429, \"end\": 223.869, \"score\": 0.89}, {\"word\": \"兩\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"月\", \"start\": 223.869, \"end\": 224.409, \"score\": 0.929}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 224.409, \"end\": 224.97, \"score\": 0.957}, {\"word\": \"電\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 224.97, \"end\": 225.43, \"score\": 0.952}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 225.43, \"end\": 225.791, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"假\", \"start\": 225.791, \"end\": 225.931, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"消\", \"start\": 225.931, \"end\": 226.131, \"score\": 0.993}, {\"word\": \"息\", \"start\": 226.131, \"end\": 226.351, \"score\": 0.825}, {\"word\": \"變\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", 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practice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程那因為呢應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話呢目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的匯報嘛但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這第一個然後第二個就是呢相關的這個章程\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 327.14, \"end\": 327.92, \"score\": 0.821}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 327.92, \"end\": 328.24, \"score\": 0.855}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"於\", \"start\": 328.24, \"end\": 328.801, \"score\": 0.85}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"鍵\"}, {\"word\": \"基\", \"start\": 328.801, \"end\": 329.301, \"score\": 0.864}, {\"word\": \"礎\"}, {\"word\": \"設\"}, {\"word\": \"施\", \"start\": 329.301, \"end\": 329.401, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 329.401, \"end\": 329.501, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 329.501, \"end\": 329.761, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"攻\", \"start\": 329.761, \"end\": 330.041, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"擊\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 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\"score\": 0.715}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 352.407, \"end\": 352.527, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"落\", \"start\": 352.527, \"end\": 352.727, \"score\": 0.853}, {\"word\": \"差\", \"start\": 352.727, \"end\": 353.087, \"score\": 0.81}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 353.087, \"end\": 353.187, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 353.187, \"end\": 353.747, \"score\": 0.928}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 353.747, \"end\": 353.927, \"score\": 0.861}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 353.927, \"end\": 353.947, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"第\", \"start\": 353.947, \"end\": 354.067, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"二\", \"start\": 354.067, \"end\": 354.287, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 354.287, \"end\": 354.467, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 354.467, \"end\": 354.608, \"score\": 0.949}, {\"word\": \"呢\", \"start\": 354.608, \"end\": 354.888, \"score\": 0.972}, {\"word\": \"相\", \"start\": 354.888, \"end\": 355.368, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 355.368, \"end\": 355.888, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"章\", \"start\": 355.888, \"end\": 356.108, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 356.108, \"end\": 356.128, \"score\": 0.188}]}, {\"start\": 356.488, \"end\": 363.69, \"text\": \"就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟張誠簡單來有一個類似SOP的東西那這個東西呢跟這個所謂的張誠他能不能夠有這個best practice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 356.488, \"end\": 356.588, \"score\": 0.671}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 356.588, \"end\": 356.688, \"score\": 0.851}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 356.688, \"end\": 356.868, \"score\": 0.762}, {\"word\": \"看\", \"start\": 356.868, \"end\": 356.988, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 356.988, \"end\": 357.028, \"score\": 0.025}, 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{\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 581.374, \"end\": 581.474, \"score\": 0.787}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 581.474, \"end\": 581.494, \"score\": 0.027}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 582.734, \"end\": 582.754, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 582.754, \"end\": 582.774, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,309 --> 00:00:26,223\n謝謝主席那有請這個局長跟那個國土安辦的主任謝謝林主任好謝謝主席沈委員早早不好意思我因為問題有點混在一起所以想說一次就問兩位這樣子然後看誰比較能夠回答就直接回答這樣子那我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起\n\n2\n00:00:37,412 --> 00:00:56,641\n我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞這不是敵人我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個\n\n3\n00:00:57,521 --> 00:01:23,519\n他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身它也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個\n\n4\n00:01:24,950 --> 00:01:45,806\n就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例那影響到正常的一個\n\n5\n00:01:46,687 --> 00:01:46,747\n沈伯洋議員\n\n6\n00:02:13,675 --> 00:02:30,485\n這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光線的網路的配置它其實光線只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全\n\n7\n00:02:30,925 --> 00:02:31,085\n沈伯洋議員\n\n8\n00:02:51,772 --> 00:03:18,085\n那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施\n\n9\n00:03:22,648 --> 00:03:41,867\n他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊\n\n10\n00:03:43,088 --> 00:04:08,689\n在過去兩個月跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜\n\n11\n00:04:09,909 --> 00:04:36,711\n我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣\n\n12\n00:04:37,812 --> 00:04:56,052\n這是大概一年前發生的那跟我們剛剛前面講的目前我們看到一些情資的研判或許有一些重疊的地方那我這邊要問的是因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊怎麼做預防等等之類的所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是當時這個我先暫時跳過因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題\n\n13\n00:04:59,896 --> 00:05:25,299\n就是說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種HallofGovernment那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包括他們的國土安全局、技術辦公室還有FBI還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣\n\n14\n00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:56,128\n為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個bestpractice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程那因為呢應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話呢目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的匯報嘛但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這第一個然後第二個就是呢相關的這個章程\n\n15\n00:05:56,488 --> 00:06:03,690\n就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟張誠簡單來有一個類似SOP的東西那這個東西呢跟這個所謂的張誠他能不能夠有這個bestpractice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似\n\n16\n00:06:25,675 --> 00:06:53,995\n我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個\n\n17\n00:06:54,275 --> 00:06:54,455\n沈伯洋議員\n\n18\n00:07:09,645 --> 00:07:32,719\n至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作\n\n19\n00:07:34,260 --> 00:08:02,597\n我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類譬如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練\n\n20\n00:08:03,337 --> 00:08:24,371\n因為就等於說要有一個對抗,也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分,那我們多久來做一次,那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話,那我們就私底下到時候,如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題,但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的,而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子。\n\n21\n00:08:26,132 --> 00:08:51,028\n很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒\n\n22\n00:08:51,568 --> 00:09:16,384\n那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt4041是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套啦所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的對很重要我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣\n\n23\n00:09:18,925 --> 00:09:41,494\n最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就是最後就是間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了\n\n24\n00:09:42,734 --> 00:09:42,774\n謝謝主席,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n309\t26223\t謝謝主席 那有請這個局長跟那個國土安辦的主任 謝謝林主任好 謝謝主席 沈委員早早不好意思 我因為問題有點混在一起 所以想說一次就問兩位這樣子然後看誰比較能夠回答就直接回答這樣子那我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起\n37412\t56641\t我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞 這不是敵人 我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個\n57521\t83519\t他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身它也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個\n84950\t105806\t就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例那影響到正常的一個\n106687\t106747\t沈伯洋議員\n133675\t150485\t這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光線的網路的配置它其實光線只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全\n150925\t151085\t沈伯洋議員\n171772\t198085\t那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施\n202648\t221867\t他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊\n223088\t248689\t在過去兩個月跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜\n249909\t276711\t我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣\n277812\t296052\t這是大概一年前發生的那跟我們剛剛前面講的目前我們看到一些情資的研判或許有一些重疊的地方那我這邊要問的是因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊怎麼做預防等等之類的所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是當時這個我先暫時跳過因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題\n299896\t325299\t就是說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種Hall of Government那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包括他們的國土安全局、技術辦公室還有FBI還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣\n327140\t356128\t為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個best practice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程那因為呢應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話呢目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的匯報嘛但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這第一個然後第二個就是呢相關的這個章程\n356488\t363690\t就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟張誠簡單來有一個類似SOP的東西那這個東西呢跟這個所謂的張誠他能不能夠有這個best practice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似\n385675\t413995\t我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個\n414275\t414455\t沈伯洋議員\n429645\t452719\t至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作\n454260\t482597\t我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類譬如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練\n483337\t504371\t因為就等於說要有一個對抗,也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分,那我們多久來做一次,那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話,那我們就私底下到時候,如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題,但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的,而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子。\n506132\t531028\t很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒\n531568\t556384\t那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt40 41是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套啦所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的對很重要我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣\n558925\t581494\t最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就是最後就是間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了\n582734\t582774\t謝謝主席,謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席 那有請這個局長跟那個國土安辦的主任 謝謝林主任好 謝謝主席 沈委員早早不好意思 我因為問題有點混在一起 所以想說一次就問兩位這樣子然後看誰比較能夠回答就直接回答這樣子那我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起\n我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞 這不是敵人 我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個\n他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身它也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個\n就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例那影響到正常的一個\n沈伯洋議員\n這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光線的網路的配置它其實光線只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全\n沈伯洋議員\n那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施\n他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊\n在過去兩個月跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜\n我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣\n這是大概一年前發生的那跟我們剛剛前面講的目前我們看到一些情資的研判或許有一些重疊的地方那我這邊要問的是因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊怎麼做預防等等之類的所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是當時這個我先暫時跳過因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題\n就是說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種Hall of Government那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包括他們的國土安全局、技術辦公室還有FBI還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣\n為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個best practice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程那因為呢應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話呢目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的匯報嘛但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這第一個然後第二個就是呢相關的這個章程\n就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟張誠簡單來有一個類似SOP的東西那這個東西呢跟這個所謂的張誠他能不能夠有這個best practice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似\n我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個\n沈伯洋議員\n至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作\n我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類譬如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練\n因為就等於說要有一個對抗,也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分,那我們多久來做一次,那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話,那我們就私底下到時候,如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題,但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的,而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子。\n很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒\n那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt40 41是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套啦所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的對很重要我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣\n最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就是最後就是間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了\n謝謝主席,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.309 --> 00:26.223\n謝謝主席那有請這個局長跟那個國土安辦的主任謝謝林主任好謝謝主席沈委員早早不好意思我因為問題有點混在一起所以想說一次就問兩位這樣子然後看誰比較能夠回答就直接回答這樣子那我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起\n\n00:37.412 --> 00:56.641\n我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞這不是敵人我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個\n\n00:57.521 --> 01:23.519\n他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身它也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個\n\n01:24.950 --> 01:45.806\n就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例那影響到正常的一個\n\n01:46.687 --> 01:46.747\n沈伯洋議員\n\n02:13.675 --> 02:30.485\n這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光線的網路的配置它其實光線只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全\n\n02:30.925 --> 02:31.085\n沈伯洋議員\n\n02:51.772 --> 03:18.085\n那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施\n\n03:22.648 --> 03:41.867\n他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊\n\n03:43.088 --> 04:08.689\n在過去兩個月跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜\n\n04:09.909 --> 04:36.711\n我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣\n\n04:37.812 --> 04:56.052\n這是大概一年前發生的那跟我們剛剛前面講的目前我們看到一些情資的研判或許有一些重疊的地方那我這邊要問的是因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊怎麼做預防等等之類的所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是當時這個我先暫時跳過因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題\n\n04:59.896 --> 05:25.299\n就是說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種HallofGovernment那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包括他們的國土安全局、技術辦公室還有FBI還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣\n\n05:27.140 --> 05:56.128\n為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個bestpractice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程那因為呢應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話呢目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的匯報嘛但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這第一個然後第二個就是呢相關的這個章程\n\n05:56.488 --> 06:03.690\n就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟張誠簡單來有一個類似SOP的東西那這個東西呢跟這個所謂的張誠他能不能夠有這個bestpractice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似\n\n06:25.675 --> 06:53.995\n我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個\n\n06:54.275 --> 06:54.455\n沈伯洋議員\n\n07:09.645 --> 07:32.719\n至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作\n\n07:34.260 --> 08:02.597\n我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類譬如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練\n\n08:03.337 --> 08:24.371\n因為就等於說要有一個對抗,也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分,那我們多久來做一次,那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話,那我們就私底下到時候,如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題,但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的,而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子。\n\n08:26.132 --> 08:51.028\n很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒\n\n08:51.568 --> 09:16.384\n那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt4041是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套啦所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的對很重要我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣\n\n09:18.925 --> 09:41.494\n最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就是最後就是間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了\n\n09:42.734 --> 09:42.774\n謝謝主席,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.309,"end":26.223,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請這個局長跟那個國土安辦的主任 謝謝林主任好 謝謝主席 沈委員早早不好意思 我因為問題有點混在一起 所以想說一次就問兩位這樣子然後看誰比較能夠回答就直接回答這樣子那我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起"},{"start":37.412,"end":56.641,"text":"我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞 這不是敵人 我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個"},{"start":57.521,"end":83.519,"text":"他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身它也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個"},{"start":84.95,"end":105.806,"text":"就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例那影響到正常的一個"},{"start":106.687,"end":106.747,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":133.675,"end":150.485,"text":"這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光線的網路的配置它其實光線只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全"},{"start":150.925,"end":151.085,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":171.772,"end":198.085,"text":"那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":202.648,"end":221.867,"text":"他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊"},{"start":223.088,"end":248.689,"text":"在過去兩個月跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜"},{"start":249.909,"end":276.711,"text":"我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣"},{"start":277.812,"end":296.052,"text":"這是大概一年前發生的那跟我們剛剛前面講的目前我們看到一些情資的研判或許有一些重疊的地方那我這邊要問的是因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊怎麼做預防等等之類的所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是當時這個我先暫時跳過因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題"},{"start":299.896,"end":325.299,"text":"就是說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種Hall of Government那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包括他們的國土安全局、技術辦公室還有FBI還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣"},{"start":327.14,"end":356.128,"text":"為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個best practice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程那因為呢應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話呢目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的匯報嘛但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這第一個然後第二個就是呢相關的這個章程"},{"start":356.488,"end":363.69,"text":"就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟張誠簡單來有一個類似SOP的東西那這個東西呢跟這個所謂的張誠他能不能夠有這個best practice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似"},{"start":385.675,"end":413.995,"text":"我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個"},{"start":414.275,"end":414.455,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":429.645,"end":452.719,"text":"至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作"},{"start":454.26,"end":482.597,"text":"我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類譬如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練"},{"start":483.337,"end":504.371,"text":"因為就等於說要有一個對抗,也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分,那我們多久來做一次,那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話,那我們就私底下到時候,如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題,但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的,而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子。"},{"start":506.132,"end":531.028,"text":"很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":531.568,"end":556.384,"text":"那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt40 41是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套啦所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的對很重要我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":558.925,"end":581.494,"text":"最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就是最後就是間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了"},{"start":582.734,"end":582.774,"text":"謝謝主席,謝謝"}]}}}}