{"id":151935,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151935","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bd0a8ed33befc2046af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919a29ab434738161915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:56:29 - 10:04:55","影片長度":"00:08:26","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":506,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:04:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:56:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時56分）謝謝主席，陸委會副主委有請。"],["主席：有請李副主委，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：等一下，交通部觀光署也一起，好不好？"],["主席：好，我們有請周副署長。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。我們當初有禁團令、團客赴陸暫緩開放這件事情，在2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這個地方做過討論，當時交通部有講幾個問題，第一個，陸客旅行團還沒有開放；第二個是M503的爭議；第三個是整體情勢不利國家利益；最後還有反間諜法這些東西，請問交通部觀光署，這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：目前更惡化。"],["牛委員煦庭：我是問觀光署副署長。"],["周副署長廷彰：關於交通部的部分是沒有改變。"],["牛委員煦庭：於交通部的部分是沒有改變。請問觀光署，出遊的人身風險是自行評估事項還是需要政府管制的事項？"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，如果是自由行的話，可能就要自己注意各種的安全因素，如果是團體旅遊的話，它有相關的保險機制。"],["牛委員煦庭：有保險的機制，好！沒關係，這個答詢作為一個參考，因為今天的重點也不在觀光署。","我現在來問陸委會副主委，法律上有一個概念叫做同時履行抗辯，簡單來說，雙方的契約，一方於他方未為對待給付前，可以拒絕提出自己給付的權利，這個法律用語聽起來很艱澀，但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫一手交錢、一手交貨，副主委瞭解這個概念嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是買賣雙方都可以主張一手交錢、一手交貨，可是實務上會發生什麼事？我今天去買早餐的時候，要嘛他先把早餐送上來，要嘛我先買單付錢他再準備早餐，對不對？不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛！錢出去、早餐就來，不太容易做到，對不對？所以實務上在處理這件事情的時候，很難達到所謂的同時履行，一定要有一方先做，所以也是要按照社會脈絡的互信基礎來做處理，對不對？副主委同意這樣的說法嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，現在我們來討論團客的問題，按照理論上的自由市場，應該大家全部開放，對不對？理論上從自由市場的角度，先撇除這些政治因素或等等，對不對？從自由市場的角度，如果你講自由市場的對等，其實就是不受任何的限制，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，但是每個國家對於自己的旅行社管理有自己的權限。"],["牛委員煦庭：有權限沒錯。我們要一步到位、達到完全互相開放，客觀上是有困難的，就像我講的沒辦法突然之間達成，尤其是跟中國大陸，大家的關係非常敏感，特別在溝通管道不暢通的情況之下，大概也很難一步到位讓兩邊一起講好、一起達成。但最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意，即便我剛剛聽陸委會回答其他委員的詢問的時候，你當然會覺得從我們官方的角度來看，這個讓步跟讓利其實是很小的，對不對？但是算不算一點點善意？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我沒有說很小，我是說跟我們的預期差太多了。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以沒有說很小？「差太多」就是不如預期啦！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這一件事情？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了，有些事情也需要進一步釐清，包括他說要率先開放馬祖，所謂率先是指先放馬祖，後面還有金門，或是還有自由行等等，這個我們要進一步釐清。因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備，所以我們還在研議當中，就是小三通的部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：過去我們在討論的時候，我們都討論所謂的同時開放，也就是同時旅行，陸委會也說，你沒開，我當然不能開，對不對？就陷入我剛剛講的那個一手交錢、一手交貨的僵局。能夠務實解決這件事情的方法，是從小的地方先開始，一點點善意換一點點善意，開始有一點點互信基礎之後，慢慢、慢慢地逐步開放，這個我們願意尊重政府的作法，但是不能沒有回應。現在認為好像很難接，這個球好像要接也不對，不接也不對。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們不會沒有回應……"],["牛委員煦庭：不會沒有回應嘛？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們是說還在研議中。"],["牛委員煦庭：還在研議中。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那什麼時候會有一個具體的成果？預計會用什麼樣的方式處理？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個可能我沒有辦法現在就回復，因為這涉及到很多部會的權責，大家都在跨部會的研究當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：副主委這樣回答，當然站在陸委會的本位，你說有「好多機關，這些機關跟我一樣大，我也要尊重他們的意見」等等，從你的本位你要這樣回答，我不會太意外。但剛剛很多委員也關心，因為人家如果有機會來，我們的觀光業是有商機的。我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候，如果沒有明確的期程，如果沒有一個要加速的決心，對觀光業來講當然就是打擊、就是負面的消息，對不對？我們今天要的是，有沒有明確的期程？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：簡單來講，剛剛講到有關小三通或者團客到臺灣，我們都做好準備了，陸方現在放馬祖，所以福建人要到馬祖旅遊……"],["牛委員煦庭：要到馬祖是沒有問題。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個沒有問題，也不用回應，這一定是可以做的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，因為現在等於是他片面開放……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：但是……"],["牛委員煦庭：我說這叫釋出了一點點善意。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：所以這個是可以實現的，但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的，不是只有福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現，還有很多的……"],["牛委員煦庭：還有後面的事情，它現在……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：還有很多要我們回應，這個就要進一步研議。"],["牛委員煦庭：它現在說我先開放一部分，但是它也提了要求，也就是如果海峽客運可以復航，我可以再放一些人進來，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這些都跟當初大家所想像你開放、我開放的這種很困難、門檻很高的東西是有差異的。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：所以這個需要時間。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以現在要有小東西，你說今天如果是我開放換你開放，這茲事體大，所以你需要很長的時間，本席可以理解，現在是相對小的東西，可是如果我們的政府在時間表上面，沒有因為它的難度比較低、門檻比較低而有比較快、比較明確的期程，那觀光業會很失望，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我的意思是，福建居民到馬祖的部分，我現在就可以跟委員報告，這一定可以做，因為我們說我們準備好了。但是還有其他的一些……"],["牛委員煦庭：其他的要求。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：其他的要求，這個我們……"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在就要問，再1分鐘，他們現在來，不管你說可能福建的量體不是那麼大，甚至他們來馬祖，那只是一點點意思、意思而已，但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放，其實還沒有走到互相開放的那個程度，對不對？所以相對來講，你可以不用透過我們旅行團要過去這樣子的強度去做回應。剛剛有委員問，我覺得也不是沒有道理，你選福建，會不會一省對臺灣，我們又被矮化？我覺得陸委會、我們的官方可以提條件。我們也可以提條件，就是我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員的意見我們都會納入考量。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果你覺得只開放福建不夠，以至於我沒辦法換，那開放多少才夠？3個省、5個省，作為階段性的配套，可不可以討論、可不可以思考？你們會不會去提這個事？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員的意見我們都會納入考量，我就是跟委員報告，今天是星期三，幾天的時間，我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重，兩岸的事情我們是很慎重，所以我們正在研議當中……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天透過這個詢答，我們就做幾個提醒。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們會儘快。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一個，這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：希望陸委會可以把握這個機會。","第二個，我贊成就是民進黨政府也提相應的條件，他只要能夠談，即便國民黨、民進黨意識形態有很大落差，但是如果可以談，因為基於臺灣觀光業的發展，這個把它變成民生的問題，你可以大膽地提出你的條件……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後試著來做交流，我想我們不會反對這一件事情。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員的意見我們會納入考量。"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個就是時間要明確，如果它的門檻已經比過去低很多，我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間，讓觀光業者可以有所預期，也有所準備，好不好？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這三個目標，希望陸委會可以聽得進去。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，也謝謝副署長還有副主委。","繼續請王美惠委員質詢。在黃建賓委員質詢之後，我們休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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00:00:53,260\n好謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變\n\n3\n00:00:55,478 --> 00:01:13,138\n目前有更惡化還是我是問觀光署長就與交通部的部分是沒有改變與交通部的部分是沒有改變那請問觀光署這出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項還是需要政府管制的事項\n\n4\n00:01:17,148 --> 00:01:36,895\n報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西答詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委\n\n5\n00:01:37,635 --> 00:01:54,396\n這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨\n\n6\n00:01:55,257 --> 00:02:24,258\n副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?\n\n7\n00:02:25,986 --> 00:02:39,603\n呃是是好那現在齁我們現在討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對理論上從自由市場的角度\n\n8\n00:02:41,371 --> 00:02:44,413\n對於每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限\n\n9\n00:02:56,878 --> 00:03:16,736\n我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在觀光管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意\n\n10\n00:03:17,256 --> 00:03:40,419\n即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你對回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們的官方的角度來看這個的這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦是那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情\n\n11\n00:03:41,739 --> 00:04:06,037\n我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備\n\n12\n00:04:07,298 --> 00:04:33,726\n好那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛好現在就是說好像\n\n13\n00:04:34,566 --> 00:04:35,987\n這涉及到很多部會的選擇大家都在跨部會的研究當中\n\n14\n00:04:53,598 --> 00:05:14,020\n副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程\n\n15\n00:05:14,781 --> 00:05:40,396\n然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的基礎簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對\n\n16\n00:05:40,836 --> 00:06:04,329\n因為他現在是等於是他片面開放,所以我講這個可以實現的,但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現,還有很多的還有後面的事情,還有很多要我們回應,這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分,但是他也提了要求,如果這個海峽可以復航,我可以再放一些人進來,對不對\n\n17\n00:06:05,109 --> 00:06:05,249\n我的意思是說\n\n18\n00:06:31,494 --> 00:06:54,976\n福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告就一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點意思而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放嘛對不對\n\n19\n00:06:55,797 --> 00:07:12,755\n所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦\n\n20\n00:07:13,456 --> 00:07:29,970\n我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都要納入考量是如果你覺得說欸只開放福建不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考\n\n21\n00:07:31,678 --> 00:07:36,203\n今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在研議當中我覺得今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒\n\n22\n00:07:48,899 --> 00:08:08,778\n第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個我贊成就民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是如果可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情\n\n23\n00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:21,296\n那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果他的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝署長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n5522\t21068\t好 這個謝謝主席齁 這個陸委會副主委有請有請這個李副主委 謝謝交通部也一起好不好 交通部好 我們有請周副署長\n27886\t53260\t好 謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變\n55478\t73138\t目前有更惡化還是我是問觀光署長就與交通部的部分是沒有改變與交通部的部分是沒有改變那請問觀光署這出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項還是需要政府管制的事項\n77148\t96895\t報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西答詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委\n97635\t114396\t這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨\n115257\t144258\t副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到 對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛 對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?\n145986\t159603\t呃是是好那現在齁我們現在討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對理論上從自由市場的角度\n161371\t164413\t對於每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限\n176878\t196736\t我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在觀光管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意\n197256\t220419\t即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你對回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們的官方的角度來看這個的這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦是那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情\n221739\t246037\t我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備\n247298\t273726\t好 那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛 對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛好 現在就是說好像\n274566\t275987\t這涉及到很多部會的選擇 大家都在跨部會的研究當中\n293598\t314020\t副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來 對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程\n314781\t340396\t然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的基礎簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對\n340836\t364329\t因為他現在是等於是他片面開放,所以我講這個可以實現的,但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現,還有很多的還有後面的事情,還有很多要我們回應,這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分,但是他也提了要求,如果這個海峽可以復航,我可以再放一些人進來,對不對\n365109\t365249\t我的意思是說\n391494\t414976\t福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告就一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點意思而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放嘛對不對\n415797\t432755\t所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦\n433456\t449970\t我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都要納入考量是如果你覺得說欸只開放福建不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考\n451678\t456203\t今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在研議當中我覺得今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒\n468899\t488778\t第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個我贊成就民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是如果可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情\n490319\t501296\t那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果他的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝署長\n","txt":"好 這個謝謝主席齁 這個陸委會副主委有請有請這個李副主委 謝謝交通部也一起好不好 交通部好 我們有請周副署長\n好 謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變\n目前有更惡化還是我是問觀光署長就與交通部的部分是沒有改變與交通部的部分是沒有改變那請問觀光署這出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項還是需要政府管制的事項\n報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西答詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委\n這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨\n副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到 對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛 對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?\n呃是是好那現在齁我們現在討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對理論上從自由市場的角度\n對於每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限\n我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在觀光管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意\n即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你對回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們的官方的角度來看這個的這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦是那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情\n我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備\n好 那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛 對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛好 現在就是說好像\n這涉及到很多部會的選擇 大家都在跨部會的研究當中\n副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來 對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程\n然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的基礎簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對\n因為他現在是等於是他片面開放,所以我講這個可以實現的,但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現,還有很多的還有後面的事情,還有很多要我們回應,這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分,但是他也提了要求,如果這個海峽可以復航,我可以再放一些人進來,對不對\n我的意思是說\n福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告就一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點意思而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放嘛對不對\n所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦\n我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都要納入考量是如果你覺得說欸只開放福建不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考\n今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在研議當中我覺得今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒\n第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個我贊成就民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是如果可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情\n那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果他的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝署長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:05.522 --> 00:21.068\n好這個謝謝主席齁這個陸委會副主委有請有請這個李副主委謝謝交通部也一起好不好交通部好我們有請周副署長\n\n00:27.886 --> 00:53.260\n好謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變\n\n00:55.478 --> 01:13.138\n目前有更惡化還是我是問觀光署長就與交通部的部分是沒有改變與交通部的部分是沒有改變那請問觀光署這出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項還是需要政府管制的事項\n\n01:17.148 --> 01:36.895\n報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西答詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委\n\n01:37.635 --> 01:54.396\n這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨\n\n01:55.257 --> 02:24.258\n副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?\n\n02:25.986 --> 02:39.603\n呃是是好那現在齁我們現在討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對理論上從自由市場的角度\n\n02:41.371 --> 02:44.413\n對於每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限\n\n02:56.878 --> 03:16.736\n我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在觀光管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意\n\n03:17.256 --> 03:40.419\n即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你對回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們的官方的角度來看這個的這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦是那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情\n\n03:41.739 --> 04:06.037\n我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備\n\n04:07.298 --> 04:33.726\n好那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛好現在就是說好像\n\n04:34.566 --> 04:35.987\n這涉及到很多部會的選擇大家都在跨部會的研究當中\n\n04:53.598 --> 05:14.020\n副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程\n\n05:14.781 --> 05:40.396\n然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的基礎簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對\n\n05:40.836 --> 06:04.329\n因為他現在是等於是他片面開放,所以我講這個可以實現的,但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現,還有很多的還有後面的事情,還有很多要我們回應,這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分,但是他也提了要求,如果這個海峽可以復航,我可以再放一些人進來,對不對\n\n06:05.109 --> 06:05.249\n我的意思是說\n\n06:31.494 --> 06:54.976\n福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告就一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點意思而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放嘛對不對\n\n06:55.797 --> 07:12.755\n所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦\n\n07:13.456 --> 07:29.970\n我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都要納入考量是如果你覺得說欸只開放福建不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考\n\n07:31.678 --> 07:36.203\n今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在研議當中我覺得今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒\n\n07:48.899 --> 08:08.778\n第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個我贊成就民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是如果可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情\n\n08:10.319 --> 08:21.296\n那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果他的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝署長\n\n","segments":[{"start":5.522,"end":21.068,"text":"好 這個謝謝主席齁 這個陸委會副主委有請有請這個李副主委 謝謝交通部也一起好不好 交通部好 我們有請周副署長"},{"start":27.886,"end":53.26,"text":"好 謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變"},{"start":55.478,"end":73.138,"text":"目前有更惡化還是我是問觀光署長就與交通部的部分是沒有改變與交通部的部分是沒有改變那請問觀光署這出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項還是需要政府管制的事項"},{"start":77.148,"end":96.895,"text":"報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西答詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委"},{"start":97.635,"end":114.396,"text":"這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨"},{"start":115.257,"end":144.258,"text":"副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到 對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛 對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":145.986,"end":159.603,"text":"呃是是好那現在齁我們現在討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對理論上從自由市場的角度"},{"start":161.371,"end":164.413,"text":"對於每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限"},{"start":176.878,"end":196.736,"text":"我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在觀光管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意"},{"start":197.256,"end":220.419,"text":"即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你對回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們的官方的角度來看這個的這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦是那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情"},{"start":221.739,"end":246.037,"text":"我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備"},{"start":247.298,"end":273.726,"text":"好 那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛 對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛好 現在就是說好像"},{"start":274.566,"end":275.987,"text":"這涉及到很多部會的選擇 大家都在跨部會的研究當中"},{"start":293.598,"end":314.02,"text":"副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來 對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程"},{"start":314.781,"end":340.396,"text":"然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的基礎簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對"},{"start":340.836,"end":364.329,"text":"因為他現在是等於是他片面開放,所以我講這個可以實現的,但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現,還有很多的還有後面的事情,還有很多要我們回應,這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分,但是他也提了要求,如果這個海峽可以復航,我可以再放一些人進來,對不對"},{"start":365.109,"end":365.249,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":391.494,"end":414.976,"text":"福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告就一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點意思而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放嘛對不對"},{"start":415.797,"end":432.755,"text":"所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦"},{"start":433.456,"end":449.97,"text":"我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都要納入考量是如果你覺得說欸只開放福建不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考"},{"start":451.678,"end":456.203,"text":"今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在研議當中我覺得今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒"},{"start":468.899,"end":488.778,"text":"第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個我贊成就民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是如果可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情"},{"start":490.319,"end":501.296,"text":"那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果他的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝署長"}]}}}}