{"id":151939,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151939","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bc28f5db25b0aaeb51853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119196d8280b3e7255b855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:23:32 - 10:35:51","影片長度":"00:12:19","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":739,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:35:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:23:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時23分）謝謝，麻煩蔡局長。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝，蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長早。我們今天這個題目其實訂得還滿精準的，三個名詞──關鍵基礎設施（CI）；第二個，新型態威脅；第三個，因應。這3個題目精準，但是很大，我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["王委員定宇：美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令，要求國土安全部、網路安全跟基礎設施安全局（CISA）針對公部門與關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統，這是指民間，在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP、定義跟處理方式。我現在要請教局長，在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定。韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護……"],["王委員定宇：我們是一個正面表列的方式嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，都有。"],["王委員定宇：因為時代進步非常快，比方說NVIDIA的AI晶片大概在5年前，那個圖像晶片其實並沒有像現在那麼受重視，可是過了三、五年突然間就進入到了另外一個level，或者是low orbit低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見，現在因為馬斯克等等，所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次，把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們定期都會有開相關的政策會報……"],["王委員定宇：定期是多久一次？"],["蔡局長明彥：每一年都有召開。"],["王委員定宇：一年一次間隔會不會太長？"],["蔡局長明彥：但每一次開會的過程當中，我們也會針對比較新的發展……"],["王委員定宇：我們現在有專責單位去蒐集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分行政院的國土辦這邊是……"],["王委員定宇：由國土辦負責嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：那國土辦現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，目前有24位人力，但是國土辦主要是做統合……"],["王委員定宇：你其實還要指揮其他單位。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：剛才講一年討論一次、renew，什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，政策會報是一年一次，但是適時的時候會召開，也有相關的業務會報，由政委來主持。"],["王委員定宇：你們上次召開是什麼時候？"],["林主任傑：上次是在今年的1月多。"],["王委員定宇：是1月多召開？"],["林主任傑：對，副院長有指示要……"],["王委員定宇：這個1月多有沒有增設CI設施？"],["林主任傑：目前沒有，但是剛剛委員所提的，在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵科技技術裡面，在相關的其它法令有一些規範，因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施，基礎設施裡面通常講的是油、水、電……"],["王委員定宇：我是建議林傑主任。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：第一個，我們現在520新的部會首長會上來，會有一些新的想法。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們常常太分散，尤其講到資安啦！講到灰色地帶啦！或者叫Hybrid Warfare啦！它會分散在很多單位，我們在軍方會看到，國安局會看到，你們那裡也會看到，所以有時候會鬆散掉。但是這個東西不能掛一漏萬的，所以我現在就是請問，既然公私領域都有，美國有公布標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式，2021年5月跟7月。後來他們就編了錢開始去做這些設施，我印象中是拜登總統，把半導體（semiconductor）列為關鍵基礎設施，還弄了一個很大一筆金額的法案。我們臺灣現在的關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎？"],["林主任傑：有。"],["王委員定宇：民營的有哪些可以舉例出來？"],["林主任傑：有一些通訊的，或者是廣播的。"],["王委員定宇：通訊？"],["林主任傑：對，或者是廣播。"],["王委員定宇：是基地台嗎？"],["林主任傑：還有一些是醫療設施。"],["王委員定宇：你的通訊是指光纖網絡、基地台、交換機還是指什麼？"],["林主任傑：抱歉委員，因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明，但是就是在通訊方面……"],["王委員定宇：OK，涉及機敏的可以不在這邊說，我尊重。比方說台積電，很清楚，媒體有報導，它算嘛！"],["林主任傑：台積電是民間的業者，是單純提供一些服務，所以它並不是提供給大眾的、公共的、我們所定義的基礎服務。"],["王委員定宇：但它是重要的設施。"],["林主任傑：還有還有關鍵的科技技術。"],["王委員定宇：它算是戰略設施。"],["林主任傑：戰略的設施。"],["王委員定宇：公眾場合的電子布告板算不算？"],["林主任傑：這就是看它營運的單位，通常是算的。"],["王委員定宇：因為我在大會問過唐鳳，大概是在裴洛西來的那一年，我們整個一萬多家CVS（便利商店）的布告板，啪！就被變掉了。這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候，它突然之間給你丟一個假訊息，會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷，或者錯誤的訊息導致混亂。臺灣處處都有便利商店，所以當那裡出現深層造假或者相關的假錯訊息其實是很危險的。你們有把它納入嘛，所以就這個題目，本席要問的最後一題就是，你們有公布相關的導引（guide line）以及執行導引的規範，包含獎勵或罰則或者怎麼樣？我告訴你民間該這麼做，因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施（CI）、你必須要達到這個、達到那個規範，規範你做不到的，我怎麼輔導你，你該做卻不做的，我該怎麼去要求你，我們有沒有這個事情？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，這個有。因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全領域的運用、資通設備一些的運用，所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者，都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關，所以它有相關的義務跟事項。"],["王委員定宇：我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求、怎麼落實要求、要求哪些單位，該用機密就機密，可以公布就公布，讓本席或者本委員會看到。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊！你怎麼要求啊！你懂我的意思嗎？主任你先請回。","回到局長，520快到了，在520前夕，包含各國情報單位都顯示說，中國對臺灣有相當多的作法，我認為叫圖謀不軌啦！就是不正當的作法、滋擾的作法、破壞的作法、污辱性的作法，我們國安局有沒有掌握這樣的情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我想在大選之後，我們看到中共對臺政策的樣態，主要還是和戰的兩手，透過釋放各種利多的訊息，或是透過各種灰色地帶的脅迫來凸顯它在臺海議題上的主動權。"],["王委員定宇：你們掌握它的情資，到目前為止最嚴重的，它會怎麼做？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們要注意到的是，他們現在比較大的重點是放在例行性的聯合戰備警巡，它的規模會擴大，跟過去來比較，有沒有一些新的動作……"],["王委員定宇：它的聯合戰備警巡其實之前開始執行。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：它如果要有新脅迫的話，可能會在距離或者編隊或者樣態來做調整，你們目前有掌握什麼訊息？"],["蔡局長明彥：包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行，這已經有3次了；另外，在聯合戰備警巡的期間，他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們相關的空中武力、滯空的時間；另外也開始動用其他的機艦，包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦，在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作，這都是今年以來新的樣態。"],["王委員定宇：所以你們有掌握以外，我們現在因應的方式是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態，當然國防部這邊有它的相關應處的既有機制，特別也要注意的除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外，灰色地帶的操作，包括在今年的2月，金門的翻船事件之後，他們開始派出一些公務船，有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動，這也是我們特別在注意的重點。"],["王委員定宇：因為布林肯專程跑了中國，中國也不鋪紅地毯，然後氣氛其實談得滿僵的，但布林肯去就把該說的話講，他講了四大類的話，其中有一類就是不要在520前在臺海搞事，所以顯示美國的情報單位有注意到這個事情，從俄烏戰爭到以色列那邊的事情，其實美國的情報系統，我們還要滿佩服的，它講會打就一定會打。"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分一定要跟委員補充說明一下，美國現在對中國的政策主要是在做管理，管理雙方的紛爭，然後在管理……"],["王委員定宇：它其實是crisis management。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，然後也在管理中國的行為，它在管理中國的行為，所以我們在看他們的互動過程當中，可以把它稱為紅線外交，一直在畫紅線，告訴中國可能在哪個階段、哪個時間點不能做哪些事，把紅線畫出來……"],["王委員定宇：現在越畫越細啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，讓中國不要誤判，我覺得這樣的戰略訊號傳遞給北京是非常重要的，對於穩定我們臺海安全的情勢。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權臨海上的糾紛事項？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於各種可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除，要繼續注意，我剛剛在進來會議室之前，媒體朋友也在問這一點，除了520之前，也要注意到520之後，6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季，到時候也要注意到他們會不會用各種的藉口，透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓，這也是我們另外觀察的重點。"],["王委員定宇：怎麼樣提升我們自己的準備，強化跟國際的合作，以及事前訊息的戳破，這個都是應處的方式。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我也跟委員說明一下，這個部分我們跟國際友盟在國際相關情資的交流非常非常地緊密，不管是在人員情報或科技情報的部分，主要的目的就是要對中共的戰略意圖做精準的判斷，以及軍事動態會不會威脅到臺海情勢。"],["王委員定宇：現在五眼聯盟plus one是日本，然後五眼聯盟相關的訊息分享，我們臺灣情資單位其實是有共享的吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們跟國際友盟的合作非常地全面，當然我不方便針對特定的國家來說明現在合作的狀況。"],["王委員定宇：我最後1分鐘請教你另外一個問題，就國安局瞭解，臺企聯算是純民間組織還是中共的附隨組織？這個陸委會有定義喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：確實有注意到委員提到這個部分的觀察，也就是可能在兩岸交流過程當中，中共除了釋放一些它的政策訊息或是要不要修改國內的國安法制以外，他們也透過相關的……"],["王委員定宇：為什麼這定義很重要，你知道嗎？我這1分鐘講完，你們做適當的回應就好。臺企聯是受國臺辦業務指導跟監督管理，甚至於國臺辦的相關人都會明列他的什麼職務、什麼職務、榮譽的職務，在陸委會有沒有把臺企聯定義為中共黨政軍相關的附隨組織，這是第一件事要釐清。第二個，如果它是，它向臺灣的國會議員要求去放鬆、修改、修掉國安相關法律，這裡面有沒有法律層次的問題，我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的。交流、對話我們都不反對，臺灣也愛和平，但是和平不是把國家主權、祖產賣掉的和平，和平對侵略者來講是一個假象，對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相，所以對話OK，平等互惠OK，不講話其實也OK，但是如果在法律的層次，界定的定義就很清楚，它是不是中共黨政軍的附隨組織、有沒有接受它的授命或指導或要求去從事相關行為危及我們國家安全，它大概有幾個層次，如果它交流是要求你回家要拜拜、孝順父母，OK，不危及國家安全，沒問題。所以這幾個要件，國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚，免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫，結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話，那負負不會得正的，好不好？局長，供你參考，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。待會洪申翰委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘。","現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"151939","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151939","tool":"pyannote","id":"151939-pyannote"},"job_id":"uHeJtz3iBbq3t4hN","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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{\"word\": \"帶\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 733.823, \"end\": 733.843, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"話\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 733.843, \"end\": 733.863, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 735.625, \"end\": 735.766, \"score\": 0.86}, {\"word\": \"副\", \"start\": 735.766, \"end\": 735.906, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 735.906, \"end\": 736.107, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 736.107, \"end\": 736.429, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"勝\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 736.429, \"end\": 736.61, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 736.61, \"end\": 736.69, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 736.69, \"end\": 736.71, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 736.71, \"end\": 736.851, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"局\", \"start\": 736.851, \"end\": 736.931, \"score\": 0.749}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"恭\", \"start\": 736.931, \"end\": 736.951, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"喜\", \"start\": 736.951, \"end\": 736.991, \"score\": 0.501}, {\"word\": \"參\"}, {\"word\": \"考\", \"start\": 736.991, \"end\": 737.011, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,329 --> 00:00:24,240\n好謝謝麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長好謝謝主席王委員早局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大\n\n2\n00:00:25,287 --> 00:00:42,346\n那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與\n\n3\n00:00:47,232 --> 00:00:55,741\n關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式\n\n4\n00:00:56,843 --> 00:01:21,440\n那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快\n\n5\n00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:48,375\n比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個LowOrbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個相關的表定期是多久一次\n\n6\n00:01:49,016 --> 00:01:54,043\n每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長\n\n7\n00:01:55,484 --> 00:02:20,912\n對,但每一次在開會的過程當中,我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分,行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力,但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次,renew什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施\n\n8\n00:02:23,124 --> 00:02:37,297\n幫委員,那個政策匯報是一年一次,但是適時的時候會召開,而有相關的業務匯報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候?上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開?對,副院長有指示,有指示要進行這個一月多有沒有增設?\n\n9\n00:02:39,779 --> 00:02:58,731\n目前沒有但是剛剛委員所提的在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來\n\n10\n00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:14,816\n會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啦講到灰色地帶啦或者叫HybridWarfare啦它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉\n\n11\n00:03:17,340 --> 00:03:43,021\n這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案\n\n12\n00:03:44,002 --> 00:04:02,217\n我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台灣那還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指\n\n13\n00:04:03,318 --> 00:04:17,549\n光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的射擊機密你可不可以在這邊說我尊重\n\n14\n00:04:18,700 --> 00:04:43,917\n比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務啦所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務啦但他是重要的設施還有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的\n\n15\n00:04:44,517 --> 00:04:57,072\n因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個報告板啪就變變掉了\n\n16\n00:04:58,308 --> 00:05:21,376\n這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關的假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是\n\n17\n00:05:22,136 --> 00:05:37,949\n那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範\n\n18\n00:05:39,830 --> 00:06:04,525\n那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求\n\n19\n00:06:05,365 --> 00:06:19,718\n怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公布就公布讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任先請回回到局長\n\n20\n00:06:21,179 --> 00:06:35,155\n520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法\n\n21\n00:06:35,776 --> 00:06:37,497\n你們掌握他的情緒到目前為止\n\n22\n00:06:59,861 --> 00:07:00,842\n最嚴重的他會怎麼做?\n\n23\n00:07:25,008 --> 00:07:48,698\n包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態\n\n24\n00:07:49,318 --> 00:08:14,595\n你沒有掌握以外,我們現在因應的方式是什麼?對,我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有它的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的,除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作,包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船,有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別要注意的一點布林肯專程跑了中國,中國也不撲黃地毯\n\n25\n00:08:16,696 --> 00:08:18,977\n美國對中國政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理\n\n26\n00:08:43,291 --> 00:08:45,152\n有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項\n\n27\n00:09:13,277 --> 00:09:36,562\n那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓\n\n28\n00:09:37,142 --> 00:09:37,883\n現在五眼聯盟是日本\n\n29\n00:10:04,820 --> 00:10:09,102\n我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織\n\n30\n00:10:28,210 --> 00:10:28,390\n台企聯\n\n31\n00:10:52,441 --> 00:11:11,744\n他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是\n\n32\n00:11:12,705 --> 00:11:24,522\n他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對\n\n33\n00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:48,002\n台灣人也很愛和平,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平。和平對侵略者來講是一個假象,對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相。所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK,但是如果在法律的程式,那個界定的定義就很清楚。\n\n34\n00:11:48,763 --> 00:12:13,863\n他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那\n\n35\n00:12:15,625 --> 00:12:17,011\n副副不會得勝的好不好局長恭喜參考謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n329\t24240\t好 謝謝 麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長好 謝謝主席 王委員早局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大\n25287\t42346\t那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與\n47232\t55741\t關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式\n56843\t81440\t那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快\n82000\t108375\t比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個Low Orbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個相關的表定期是多久一次\n109016\t114043\t每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長\n115484\t140912\t對,但每一次在開會的過程當中,我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分,行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力,但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次,renew什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施\n143124\t157297\t幫委員,那個政策匯報是一年一次,但是適時的時候會召開,而有相關的業務匯報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候?上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開?對,副院長有指示,有指示要進行這個一月多有沒有增設?\n159779\t178731\t目前沒有但是剛剛委員所提的在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來\n180100\t194816\t會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啦講到灰色地帶啦或者叫Hybrid Warfare啦它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉\n197340\t223021\t這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案\n224002\t242217\t我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台灣那還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指\n243318\t257549\t光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的射擊機密你可不可以在這邊說我尊重\n258700\t283917\t比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務啦所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務啦但他是重要的設施還有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的\n284517\t297072\t因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個報告板啪就變變掉了\n298308\t321376\t這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關的假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是\n322136\t337949\t那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範\n339830\t364525\t那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求\n365365\t379718\t怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公布就公布讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任先請回回到局長\n381179\t395155\t520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法\n395776\t397497\t你們掌握他的情緒到目前為止\n419861\t420842\t最嚴重的他會怎麼做?\n445008\t468698\t包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態\n469318\t494595\t你沒有掌握以外,我們現在因應的方式是什麼?對,我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有它的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的,除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作,包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船,有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別要注意的一點布林肯專程跑了中國,中國也不撲黃地毯\n496696\t498977\t美國對中國政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理\n523291\t525152\t有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項\n553277\t576562\t那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓\n577142\t577883\t現在五眼聯盟是日本\n604820\t609102\t我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織\n628210\t628390\t台企聯\n652441\t671744\t他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是\n672705\t684522\t他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對\n685919\t708002\t台灣人也很愛和平,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平。和平對侵略者來講是一個假象,對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相。所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK,但是如果在法律的程式,那個界定的定義就很清楚。\n708763\t733863\t他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那\n735625\t737011\t副副不會得勝的好不好 局長恭喜參考 謝謝\n","txt":"好 謝謝 麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長好 謝謝主席 王委員早局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大\n那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與\n關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式\n那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快\n比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個Low Orbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個相關的表定期是多久一次\n每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長\n對,但每一次在開會的過程當中,我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分,行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力,但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次,renew什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施\n幫委員,那個政策匯報是一年一次,但是適時的時候會召開,而有相關的業務匯報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候?上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開?對,副院長有指示,有指示要進行這個一月多有沒有增設?\n目前沒有但是剛剛委員所提的在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來\n會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啦講到灰色地帶啦或者叫Hybrid Warfare啦它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉\n這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案\n我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台灣那還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指\n光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的射擊機密你可不可以在這邊說我尊重\n比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務啦所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務啦但他是重要的設施還有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的\n因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個報告板啪就變變掉了\n這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關的假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是\n那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範\n那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求\n怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公布就公布讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任先請回回到局長\n520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法\n你們掌握他的情緒到目前為止\n最嚴重的他會怎麼做?\n包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態\n你沒有掌握以外,我們現在因應的方式是什麼?對,我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有它的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的,除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作,包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船,有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別要注意的一點布林肯專程跑了中國,中國也不撲黃地毯\n美國對中國政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理\n有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項\n那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓\n現在五眼聯盟是日本\n我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織\n台企聯\n他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是\n他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對\n台灣人也很愛和平,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平。和平對侵略者來講是一個假象,對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相。所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK,但是如果在法律的程式,那個界定的定義就很清楚。\n他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那\n副副不會得勝的好不好 局長恭喜參考 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.329 --> 00:24.240\n好謝謝麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長好謝謝主席王委員早局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大\n\n00:25.287 --> 00:42.346\n那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與\n\n00:47.232 --> 00:55.741\n關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式\n\n00:56.843 --> 01:21.440\n那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快\n\n01:22.000 --> 01:48.375\n比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個LowOrbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個相關的表定期是多久一次\n\n01:49.016 --> 01:54.043\n每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長\n\n01:55.484 --> 02:20.912\n對,但每一次在開會的過程當中,我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分,行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力,但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次,renew什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施\n\n02:23.124 --> 02:37.297\n幫委員,那個政策匯報是一年一次,但是適時的時候會召開,而有相關的業務匯報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候?上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開?對,副院長有指示,有指示要進行這個一月多有沒有增設?\n\n02:39.779 --> 02:58.731\n目前沒有但是剛剛委員所提的在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來\n\n03:00.100 --> 03:14.816\n會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啦講到灰色地帶啦或者叫HybridWarfare啦它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉\n\n03:17.340 --> 03:43.021\n這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案\n\n03:44.002 --> 04:02.217\n我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台灣那還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指\n\n04:03.318 --> 04:17.549\n光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的射擊機密你可不可以在這邊說我尊重\n\n04:18.700 --> 04:43.917\n比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務啦所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務啦但他是重要的設施還有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的\n\n04:44.517 --> 04:57.072\n因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個報告板啪就變變掉了\n\n04:58.308 --> 05:21.376\n這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關的假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是\n\n05:22.136 --> 05:37.949\n那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範\n\n05:39.830 --> 06:04.525\n那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求\n\n06:05.365 --> 06:19.718\n怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公布就公布讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任先請回回到局長\n\n06:21.179 --> 06:35.155\n520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法\n\n06:35.776 --> 06:37.497\n你們掌握他的情緒到目前為止\n\n06:59.861 --> 07:00.842\n最嚴重的他會怎麼做?\n\n07:25.008 --> 07:48.698\n包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態\n\n07:49.318 --> 08:14.595\n你沒有掌握以外,我們現在因應的方式是什麼?對,我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有它的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的,除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作,包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船,有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別要注意的一點布林肯專程跑了中國,中國也不撲黃地毯\n\n08:16.696 --> 08:18.977\n美國對中國政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理\n\n08:43.291 --> 08:45.152\n有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項\n\n09:13.277 --> 09:36.562\n那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓\n\n09:37.142 --> 09:37.883\n現在五眼聯盟是日本\n\n10:04.820 --> 10:09.102\n我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織\n\n10:28.210 --> 10:28.390\n台企聯\n\n10:52.441 --> 11:11.744\n他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是\n\n11:12.705 --> 11:24.522\n他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對\n\n11:25.919 --> 11:48.002\n台灣人也很愛和平,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平。和平對侵略者來講是一個假象,對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相。所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK,但是如果在法律的程式,那個界定的定義就很清楚。\n\n11:48.763 --> 12:13.863\n他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那\n\n12:15.625 --> 12:17.011\n副副不會得勝的好不好局長恭喜參考謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.329,"end":24.24,"text":"好 謝謝 麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長好 謝謝主席 王委員早局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大"},{"start":25.287,"end":42.346,"text":"那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與"},{"start":47.232,"end":55.741,"text":"關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式"},{"start":56.843,"end":81.44,"text":"那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快"},{"start":82,"end":108.375,"text":"比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個Low Orbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個相關的表定期是多久一次"},{"start":109.016,"end":114.043,"text":"每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長"},{"start":115.484,"end":140.912,"text":"對,但每一次在開會的過程當中,我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分,行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力,但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次,renew什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":143.124,"end":157.297,"text":"幫委員,那個政策匯報是一年一次,但是適時的時候會召開,而有相關的業務匯報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候?上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開?對,副院長有指示,有指示要進行這個一月多有沒有增設?"},{"start":159.779,"end":178.731,"text":"目前沒有但是剛剛委員所提的在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來"},{"start":180.1,"end":194.816,"text":"會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啦講到灰色地帶啦或者叫Hybrid Warfare啦它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉"},{"start":197.34,"end":223.021,"text":"這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案"},{"start":224.002,"end":242.217,"text":"我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台灣那還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指"},{"start":243.318,"end":257.549,"text":"光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的射擊機密你可不可以在這邊說我尊重"},{"start":258.7,"end":283.917,"text":"比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務啦所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務啦但他是重要的設施還有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的"},{"start":284.517,"end":297.072,"text":"因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個報告板啪就變變掉了"},{"start":298.308,"end":321.376,"text":"這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關的假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是"},{"start":322.136,"end":337.949,"text":"那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範"},{"start":339.83,"end":364.525,"text":"那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求"},{"start":365.365,"end":379.718,"text":"怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公布就公布讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任先請回回到局長"},{"start":381.179,"end":395.155,"text":"520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法"},{"start":395.776,"end":397.497,"text":"你們掌握他的情緒到目前為止"},{"start":419.861,"end":420.842,"text":"最嚴重的他會怎麼做?"},{"start":445.008,"end":468.698,"text":"包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態"},{"start":469.318,"end":494.595,"text":"你沒有掌握以外,我們現在因應的方式是什麼?對,我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有它的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的,除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作,包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船,有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別要注意的一點布林肯專程跑了中國,中國也不撲黃地毯"},{"start":496.696,"end":498.977,"text":"美國對中國政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理"},{"start":523.291,"end":525.152,"text":"有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項"},{"start":553.277,"end":576.562,"text":"那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓"},{"start":577.142,"end":577.883,"text":"現在五眼聯盟是日本"},{"start":604.82,"end":609.102,"text":"我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織"},{"start":628.21,"end":628.39,"text":"台企聯"},{"start":652.441,"end":671.744,"text":"他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是"},{"start":672.705,"end":684.522,"text":"他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對"},{"start":685.919,"end":708.002,"text":"台灣人也很愛和平,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平。和平對侵略者來講是一個假象,對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相。所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK,但是如果在法律的程式,那個界定的定義就很清楚。"},{"start":708.763,"end":733.863,"text":"他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那"},{"start":735.625,"end":737.011,"text":"副副不會得勝的好不好 局長恭喜參考 謝謝"}]}}}}