{"id":151944,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151944","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bfcd20a36677e3c0a1853afabeb86d4497f5010e630711919c1b34ac842e2f80c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:49:08 - 11:00:56","影片長度":"00:11:48","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":708,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:00:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:49:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":391,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（10時49分）請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任。"],["主席：請蔡局長、林主任。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員早。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，剛剛前面幾位委員都有問到馬祖海纜的問題，我就直接切入到這部分的重點。2023年2月的時候，互為備援的兩條馬祖海纜在很短的時間內遭到中國漁船的破壞，導致馬祖對外的通訊都中斷，所以有剛才那個畫面，所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面嗷嗷待哺，希望能用到網路。對不起，我換一個麥克風，這樣可以嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：可以，聽得到。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，你覺得這是意外事件還是非意外事件？"],["蔡局長明彥：這個案例我們一直有在觀察，過去幾年臺馬海纜大概已經斷線二十幾次，非常不尋常，但是我們進行各種的判斷時，不能依照我們自己主觀的想法來判斷……"],["洪委員申翰：局長，這個……"],["蔡局長明彥：我簡單說明一下，因為海纜的斷裂，一般判斷有中國的漁船在周邊水域作業，這是第一個部分；第二個，我們會分析它的作業航跡，它的作業航跡是正常的漁船作業航跡還是刻意要去破壞海纜的航跡，這都要做必要的比對。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們看到華府智庫認為此事並不是巧合，甚至是採取灰色地帶的侵略手段來切斷對臺的網絡，局長同意嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：不能排除這樣的可能性。"],["洪委員申翰：不能排除這樣的可能性？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，特別在假如兩岸比較緊張的過程當中，用這種切斷臺灣對外海纜的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作，可能性是存在的。"],["洪委員申翰：局長，我們看到馬祖海纜有幾個特殊的地方，第一個是相對於國際的海纜，在巴士海峽它的深度其實是兩千到五千，馬祖海纜大概只有30公尺到100公尺；它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線；人為變因，確實我們現在看到，這是讓我們最憂心的地方，中國民用船隻在這個灰色地帶進犯，包括查扣抽砂船，從2019年95艘開始，到2020年、2021年都超過300艘，看起來數字是非常非常高的。這段時間，當然我知道一直以來，行政部門會說，我們有兩個法，一個是電信管理法，一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們相關的海纜措施。去年我也對陳建仁院長提出質詢，所以後來電信管理法有修了，原本舊的只寫到登陸站，只有國際登陸站能夠被認定；我們把它變成新的法，變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線，其實都有修訂，這是我們做的事情，我認為就電信法的部分，確實有補上了一些。","但我們接下來看的事情是關於CI的部分，這是我們CI的定義，裡面其實寫得很清楚，「因人為破壞或自然災害受損，進而影響政府或社會功能運作……及造成環境改變或其他足使國家安全或利益遭受損害之虞者」，所以局長覺得馬祖海纜算不算CI？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，當然是重要的CI設施之一。"],["洪委員申翰：是嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為就海纜來講，我們現在的國際海纜大概有14條，國內、外離島的海纜加起來有10條，這涉及到我們對外的聯通……"],["洪委員申翰：那數位部怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛同仁跟我提醒，數位部主要是以國際海纜為主要的關切重點。"],["洪委員申翰：就我理解，數位部並不贊成把馬祖海纜放入CI裡面。局長怎麼看？"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛剛已經提過了，就國家安全的角度來講，我們認為國際的海纜跟國內相關、外離島的海纜都非常重要。"],["洪委員申翰：那數位部這樣的認定，請問國安局或國土辦，國土辦對數位部這樣子認定的方法、限縮的方法，你們的態度是什麼？"],["林主任傑：委員好。當然數位部是相關數位海纜的主責單位，我們會尊重它，但是我要跟委員報告，委員剛剛提到修法的部分，修法的部分有把上岸的海纜……"],["洪委員申翰：國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎？"],["林主任傑：我們尊重它。"],["洪委員申翰：按照剛剛蔡局長的講法，剛剛他是覺得馬祖海纜當然應該列入到CI裡面喔！"],["林主任傑：是，我跟委員報告，我說尊重，但是因為現在實體上已經把它納進去了……"],["洪委員申翰：「實體上」是什麼意思？"],["林主任傑：就是剛剛您提到那個修法的部分，已經把進到海纜站的纜線也納入防護範圍。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但沒有列入到CI裡面。"],["林主任傑：是，確實它沒有單獨列上去，但是……"],["洪委員申翰：列入CI裡面的話，我們必須要防護它的各種義務，其實是比剛剛講的更多！林主任，這個應該不用我們多說嘛？"],["林主任傑：是，所以跟委員報告，像我們以海纜站的演習為例，它的範圍就會涵蓋到國內的海纜，所以相對應的要求，或我們剛剛提的報告……"],["洪委員申翰：林主任，我們都知道，我現在調了相關的演習紀錄，上一次演習是在2021年，而且是桌上的演習。請問我們在CI的演習是桌上演習嗎？"],["林主任傑：它可以透過桌推、兵推跟實兵，但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他們做些瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：上一次的演習是2021年，我們光看2022年、2023年就發生了這麼多馬祖海纜受到侵害的事件，請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海纜做演習嗎？照理來說，如果被列入CI的話應該每年都要演習、每年都要巡檢，甚至國土辦可以有事前納管、事後巡檢的權責，但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CI？"],["林主任傑：我跟委員報告，我們今年的巡檢標的有包含，其實您剛剛提到的那個機房，我們會去巡檢，而就……"],["洪委員申翰：我現在講的是馬祖海纜啊！"],["林主任傑：是，因為它的上岸點、一個點在那個地方。"],["洪委員申翰：是，但那只是上岸點！"],["林主任傑：是，至於相關的一些防護作為，我們也有多做一些掌握，所以剛剛跟委員談到……"],["洪委員申翰：主任，我到目前為止還聽不出，明明蔡局長也覺得它應該列入CI，你覺得它不該列入CI嗎？用你的專業判斷。"],["林主任傑：我們會再跟它做討論。"],["洪委員申翰：用你的專業判斷，你覺得馬祖海纜該不該列入CI？用你的專業判斷。"],["林主任傑：我們會再跟他們做一個討論跟確認。"],["洪委員申翰：不管是局長或者主任，我必須說我非常非常疑惑，我當然也找過數位部來討論過幾次，但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海纜列入CI。當然他現在說我們用微波等等的，但我們都很清楚知道，其實微波沒有辦法完全替代實質的海纜、光纖海纜的功能，尤其它的頻寬是非常非常不足的。甚至當如果有特定的、外在威脅的時候，我們都知道可能是軍用、政府用為先，對不對？即便是微波，我們現在查到的數據，微波的部分，我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps，可是我們的海纜其實是有100Tb！微波的頻寬，如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖、包圍而出現混亂的時候，除了政府用跟軍用夠以外，民用也夠嗎？我們確定嗎？林主任或者局長，這件事情我們確定嗎？10Gbps確定夠嗎？會不會民用是不夠的？會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生了混亂？會不會有這些問題？"],["林主任傑：我跟委員報告，目前就以往的使用情形來看，是可以到足額覆蓋，但是我想……"],["洪委員申翰：軍用跟民用是優先的，那民用夠嗎？"],["林主任傑：就是整體的計算，但我們還是要持續地備援再備援。另外剛剛提到就臺馬海纜的部分是不是要納進去CI這一塊，我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認，從……"],["洪委員申翰：我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情，但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由，為什麼馬祖海纜可以不列入CI？如果你們知道也請告訴我，我們可以理性討論。但到目前為止，我得不到一個合理的回答，明明已經是會這麼常被破壞，而且大家都知道它的風險，也都知道它會帶來的混亂，我們在CI的定義上面也都感覺得到它就是符合，但對不起，我們這個主管機關不認就是不認！也因為它的不認，所以我們相關的管理、巡檢，包括演練密度都不如真正列入CI的。為什麼？"],["林主任傑：我溝通瞭解的結果，一定會跟委員報告。"],["洪委員申翰：局長跟國土辦，我希望第一個，我們應該要盡力，尤其像馬祖海纜這樣子的，我認為它就是關鍵基礎設施、就是CI了，它明明帶來的風險就是很大。這個通訊的設施，我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CI裡面，大的範疇裡面是有的，但今天因為數位部有它的偏執，我不知道為什麼，但它就是不願意，我覺得這讓我們在相關防護的密度上都受到很大影響。這是事實證明的，我拿出數據了，上一次的演練是2021年。而且還是桌上的推演，我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作，有跟地方政府合作嗎？甚至我們都還要求這些相關演練要及時向民眾發出告警！這種桌上的演練方式可以符合演練上的規範嗎？恐怕還差很大一段距離！蔡局長，你剛剛在幾分鐘前回答我時，一度也以為馬祖海纜有列入CI，對不對？你剛剛的回答也這樣說。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重委員的關切，接下來在行政院政策會報裡，由國安局來提供類似意見，以轉達委員的關切。"],["洪委員申翰：所以最後，我們要求國土辦跟國安局應該針對馬祖海纜問題提出是否該列入CI的解析報告，不要只是拿微波來講，微波的功能就是比不上海纜，就是比不上！包括其演練、相關管理、巡檢密度，就是需要國土辦列管，而不是由數位部用自己的方式來處理這個問題，這個我沒有辦法接受！我在這邊還是要再一次表達這個意見，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：我們來反映，謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時6分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會。接下來請王鴻薇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"151944","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151944",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363.317, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 363.317, \"end\": 363.337, \"score\": 0.995}]}, {\"start\": 364.694, \"end\": 386.777, \"text\": \"請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入CIA的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CIA?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 364.694, \"end\": 364.854, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 364.854, \"end\": 365.835, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 365.835, \"end\": 366.016, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 366.016, \"end\": 366.136, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 366.136, \"end\": 367.157, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"針\"}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"馬\"}, {\"word\": \"祖\", \"start\": 367.157, \"end\": 367.257, \"score\": 0.804}, {\"word\": \"海\", \"start\": 367.257, \"end\": 367.677, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"蘭\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 367.677, 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\"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 677.972, \"end\": 678.212, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"反\", \"start\": 678.212, \"end\": 678.432, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"映\", \"start\": 678.432, \"end\": 678.452, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:03,828 --> 00:00:26,356\n請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任請蔡局長林主任好文英早局長這個剛剛前面有幾位委員其實都有問到了這個馬祖的海嵐的問題我就直接的切入到這個部分的重點\n\n2\n00:00:29,396 --> 00:00:52,950\n這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那熬熬待補希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到\n\n3\n00:00:54,212 --> 00:01:12,788\n那這樣覺得是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概台馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了。那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的\n\n4\n00:01:14,309 --> 00:01:33,706\n市長,這個……必須要判斷的,我簡單說明一下,因為它的海嵐的斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業,這是第一個部分。第二個,它的作業的航機我們會分析,它的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機,還是它刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機,這也都要做分析。\n\n5\n00:01:34,446 --> 00:02:01,923\n我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面\n\n6\n00:02:03,304 --> 00:02:28,379\n這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘\n\n7\n00:02:33,154 --> 00:02:35,092\n看起來數字是非常非常高的\n\n8\n00:02:35,765 --> 00:03:03,774\n那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情\n\n9\n00:03:04,494 --> 00:03:26,434\n但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個這樣這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者\n\n10\n00:03:27,731 --> 00:03:45,222\n所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CI當然當然是重要的一個CI設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯通那數位部怎麼看\n\n11\n00:03:48,063 --> 00:04:04,471\n蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面\n\n12\n00:04:09,693 --> 00:04:25,678\n對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣的認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限縮的方法,你們的態度是什麼?\n\n13\n00:04:28,592 --> 00:04:48,622\n委員好當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告就是委員其實在這剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法\n\n14\n00:04:50,983 --> 00:05:09,009\n剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍\n\n15\n00:05:09,969 --> 00:05:10,409\n林主任,我們都知道\n\n16\n00:05:36,368 --> 00:06:03,337\n我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟實兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件\n\n17\n00:06:04,694 --> 00:06:26,777\n請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入CIA的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CIA?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含\n\n18\n00:06:28,118 --> 00:06:39,653\n其實您剛提到的那個機房,我們會去做巡檢。那就,那個馬,我現在講的是馬祖海蘭啊。是,它因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方。是,但是那只是上岸點啊。是。\n\n19\n00:06:40,472 --> 00:06:57,726\n阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入C.I你覺得他不該列入C.I嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入C.I用你的專業判斷再跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個\n\n20\n00:07:08,271 --> 00:07:18,478\n不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CIA\n\n21\n00:07:20,270 --> 00:07:45,776\n但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個\n\n22\n00:07:49,258 --> 00:08:00,171\n他大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T\n\n23\n00:08:06,325 --> 00:08:33,100\n我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂\n\n24\n00:08:34,432 --> 00:09:02,595\n會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就臺馬海蘭的部分是不是要納進去西埃這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情\n\n25\n00:09:03,135 --> 00:09:23,158\n但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞\n\n26\n00:09:24,531 --> 00:09:25,471\n委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員出報告\n\n27\n00:09:53,459 --> 00:10:07,192\n這個局長跟國防我希望第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他命運帶來的風險就是很大的\n\n28\n00:10:08,377 --> 00:10:29,791\n這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CIA裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年\n\n29\n00:10:32,728 --> 00:10:48,727\n是2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警阿\n\n30\n00:10:50,063 --> 00:11:15,831\n我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎?恐怕都差很大一段距離蔡局長你之前你剛剛在幾分鐘前回答我你一度也以為馬祖海蘭有列入CI對不對?你剛才的回答也這樣說我們尊重委員的關切那接下來在行政院的政策匯報裡面我們國安局來提供類似的意見來轉達委員的關切所以最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個\n\n31\n00:11:17,972 --> 00:11:18,452\n我們來反映謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n3828\t26356\t請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任請蔡局長林主任好 文英早局長 這個剛剛前面有幾位委員其實都有問到了這個馬祖的海嵐的問題我就直接的切入到這個部分的重點\n29396\t52950\t這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那熬熬待補希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到\n54212\t72788\t那這樣覺得是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概台馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了。那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的\n74309\t93706\t市長,這個……必須要判斷的,我簡單說明一下,因為它的海嵐的斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業,這是第一個部分。第二個,它的作業的航機我們會分析,它的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機,還是它刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機,這也都要做分析。\n94446\t121923\t我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡 局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面\n123304\t148379\t這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘\n153154\t155092\t看起來數字是非常非常高的\n155765\t183774\t那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情\n184494\t206434\t但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個這樣這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者\n207731\t225222\t所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CI當然當然是重要的一個CI設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯通那數位部怎麼看\n228063\t244471\t蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面\n249693\t265678\t對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣的認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限縮的方法,你們的態度是什麼?\n268592\t288622\t委員好當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告就是委員其實在這剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法\n290983\t309009\t剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是 我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍\n309969\t310409\t林主任,我們都知道\n336368\t363337\t我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟實兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件\n364694\t386777\t請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入CIA的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CIA?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含\n388118\t399653\t其實您剛提到的那個機房,我們會去做巡檢。那就,那個馬,我現在講的是馬祖海蘭啊。是,它因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方。是,但是那只是上岸點啊。是。\n400472\t417726\t阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入C.I你覺得他不該列入C.I嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入C.I用你的專業判斷再跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個\n428271\t438478\t不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CIA\n440270\t465776\t但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個\n469258\t480171\t他大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T\n486325\t513100\t我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂\n514432\t542595\t會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就臺馬海蘭的部分是不是要納進去西埃這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情\n543135\t563158\t但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞\n564531\t565471\t委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員出報告\n593459\t607192\t這個局長跟國防我希望第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他命運帶來的風險就是很大的\n608377\t629791\t這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CIA裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年\n632728\t648727\t是2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警阿\n650063\t675831\t我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎?恐怕都差很大一段距離蔡局長你之前你剛剛在幾分鐘前回答我你一度也以為馬祖海蘭有列入CI對不對?你剛才的回答也這樣說我們尊重委員的關切那接下來在行政院的政策匯報裡面我們國安局來提供類似的意見來轉達委員的關切所以最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個\n677972\t678452\t我們來反映 謝謝\n","txt":"請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任請蔡局長林主任好 文英早局長 這個剛剛前面有幾位委員其實都有問到了這個馬祖的海嵐的問題我就直接的切入到這個部分的重點\n這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那熬熬待補希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到\n那這樣覺得是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概台馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了。那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的\n市長,這個……必須要判斷的,我簡單說明一下,因為它的海嵐的斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業,這是第一個部分。第二個,它的作業的航機我們會分析,它的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機,還是它刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機,這也都要做分析。\n我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡 局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面\n這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘\n看起來數字是非常非常高的\n那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情\n但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個這樣這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者\n所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CI當然當然是重要的一個CI設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯通那數位部怎麼看\n蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面\n對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣的認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限縮的方法,你們的態度是什麼?\n委員好當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告就是委員其實在這剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法\n剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是 我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍\n林主任,我們都知道\n我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟實兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件\n請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入CIA的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CIA?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含\n其實您剛提到的那個機房,我們會去做巡檢。那就,那個馬,我現在講的是馬祖海蘭啊。是,它因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方。是,但是那只是上岸點啊。是。\n阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入C.I你覺得他不該列入C.I嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入C.I用你的專業判斷再跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個\n不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CIA\n但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個\n他大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T\n我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂\n會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就臺馬海蘭的部分是不是要納進去西埃這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情\n但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞\n委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員出報告\n這個局長跟國防我希望第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他命運帶來的風險就是很大的\n這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CIA裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年\n是2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警阿\n我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎?恐怕都差很大一段距離蔡局長你之前你剛剛在幾分鐘前回答我你一度也以為馬祖海蘭有列入CI對不對?你剛才的回答也這樣說我們尊重委員的關切那接下來在行政院的政策匯報裡面我們國安局來提供類似的意見來轉達委員的關切所以最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個\n我們來反映 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:03.828 --> 00:26.356\n請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任請蔡局長林主任好文英早局長這個剛剛前面有幾位委員其實都有問到了這個馬祖的海嵐的問題我就直接的切入到這個部分的重點\n\n00:29.396 --> 00:52.950\n這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那熬熬待補希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到\n\n00:54.212 --> 01:12.788\n那這樣覺得是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概台馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了。那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的\n\n01:14.309 --> 01:33.706\n市長,這個……必須要判斷的,我簡單說明一下,因為它的海嵐的斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業,這是第一個部分。第二個,它的作業的航機我們會分析,它的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機,還是它刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機,這也都要做分析。\n\n01:34.446 --> 02:01.923\n我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面\n\n02:03.304 --> 02:28.379\n這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘\n\n02:33.154 --> 02:35.092\n看起來數字是非常非常高的\n\n02:35.765 --> 03:03.774\n那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情\n\n03:04.494 --> 03:26.434\n但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個這樣這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者\n\n03:27.731 --> 03:45.222\n所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CI當然當然是重要的一個CI設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯通那數位部怎麼看\n\n03:48.063 --> 04:04.471\n蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面\n\n04:09.693 --> 04:25.678\n對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣的認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限縮的方法,你們的態度是什麼?\n\n04:28.592 --> 04:48.622\n委員好當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告就是委員其實在這剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法\n\n04:50.983 --> 05:09.009\n剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍\n\n05:09.969 --> 05:10.409\n林主任,我們都知道\n\n05:36.368 --> 06:03.337\n我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟實兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件\n\n06:04.694 --> 06:26.777\n請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入CIA的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CIA?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含\n\n06:28.118 --> 06:39.653\n其實您剛提到的那個機房,我們會去做巡檢。那就,那個馬,我現在講的是馬祖海蘭啊。是,它因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方。是,但是那只是上岸點啊。是。\n\n06:40.472 --> 06:57.726\n阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入C.I你覺得他不該列入C.I嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入C.I用你的專業判斷再跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個\n\n07:08.271 --> 07:18.478\n不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CIA\n\n07:20.270 --> 07:45.776\n但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個\n\n07:49.258 --> 08:00.171\n他大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T\n\n08:06.325 --> 08:33.100\n我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂\n\n08:34.432 --> 09:02.595\n會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就臺馬海蘭的部分是不是要納進去西埃這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情\n\n09:03.135 --> 09:23.158\n但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞\n\n09:24.531 --> 09:25.471\n委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員出報告\n\n09:53.459 --> 10:07.192\n這個局長跟國防我希望第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他命運帶來的風險就是很大的\n\n10:08.377 --> 10:29.791\n這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CIA裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年\n\n10:32.728 --> 10:48.727\n是2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警阿\n\n10:50.063 --> 11:15.831\n我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎?恐怕都差很大一段距離蔡局長你之前你剛剛在幾分鐘前回答我你一度也以為馬祖海蘭有列入CI對不對?你剛才的回答也這樣說我們尊重委員的關切那接下來在行政院的政策匯報裡面我們國安局來提供類似的意見來轉達委員的關切所以最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個\n\n11:17.972 --> 11:18.452\n我們來反映謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":3.828,"end":26.356,"text":"請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任請蔡局長林主任好 文英早局長 這個剛剛前面有幾位委員其實都有問到了這個馬祖的海嵐的問題我就直接的切入到這個部分的重點"},{"start":29.396,"end":52.95,"text":"這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那熬熬待補希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到"},{"start":54.212,"end":72.788,"text":"那這樣覺得是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概台馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了。那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的"},{"start":74.309,"end":93.706,"text":"市長,這個……必須要判斷的,我簡單說明一下,因為它的海嵐的斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業,這是第一個部分。第二個,它的作業的航機我們會分析,它的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機,還是它刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機,這也都要做分析。"},{"start":94.446,"end":121.923,"text":"我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡 局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面"},{"start":123.304,"end":148.379,"text":"這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘"},{"start":153.154,"end":155.092,"text":"看起來數字是非常非常高的"},{"start":155.765,"end":183.774,"text":"那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情"},{"start":184.494,"end":206.434,"text":"但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個這樣這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者"},{"start":207.731,"end":225.222,"text":"所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CI當然當然是重要的一個CI設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯通那數位部怎麼看"},{"start":228.063,"end":244.471,"text":"蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面"},{"start":249.693,"end":265.678,"text":"對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣的認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限縮的方法,你們的態度是什麼?"},{"start":268.592,"end":288.622,"text":"委員好當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告就是委員其實在這剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法"},{"start":290.983,"end":309.009,"text":"剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是 我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍"},{"start":309.969,"end":310.409,"text":"林主任,我們都知道"},{"start":336.368,"end":363.337,"text":"我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟實兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件"},{"start":364.694,"end":386.777,"text":"請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入CIA的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CIA?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含"},{"start":388.118,"end":399.653,"text":"其實您剛提到的那個機房,我們會去做巡檢。那就,那個馬,我現在講的是馬祖海蘭啊。是,它因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方。是,但是那只是上岸點啊。是。"},{"start":400.472,"end":417.726,"text":"阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入C.I你覺得他不該列入C.I嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入C.I用你的專業判斷再跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個"},{"start":428.271,"end":438.478,"text":"不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CIA"},{"start":440.27,"end":465.776,"text":"但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個"},{"start":469.258,"end":480.171,"text":"他大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T"},{"start":486.325,"end":513.1,"text":"我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂"},{"start":514.432,"end":542.595,"text":"會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就臺馬海蘭的部分是不是要納進去西埃這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情"},{"start":543.135,"end":563.158,"text":"但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞"},{"start":564.531,"end":565.471,"text":"委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員出報告"},{"start":593.459,"end":607.192,"text":"這個局長跟國防我希望第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他命運帶來的風險就是很大的"},{"start":608.377,"end":629.791,"text":"這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CIA裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年"},{"start":632.728,"end":648.727,"text":"是2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警阿"},{"start":650.063,"end":675.831,"text":"我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎?恐怕都差很大一段距離蔡局長你之前你剛剛在幾分鐘前回答我你一度也以為馬祖海蘭有列入CI對不對?你剛才的回答也這樣說我們尊重委員的關切那接下來在行政院的政策匯報裡面我們國安局來提供類似的意見來轉達委員的關切所以最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個"},{"start":677.972,"end":678.452,"text":"我們來反映 謝謝"}]}}}}