{"id":151950,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bacdad71bd86841721853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119197fb243592e5149fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:07:06 - 11:13:18","影片長度":"00:06:12","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":372,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:13:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:07:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":452,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時7分）謝謝主席。請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：局長早。今天我們討論的議題所涵蓋的範圍其實非常大，而我們非常關心的就是，在國外一些暗網裡，公然出售包含我們一些國防外交的機敏資料，光今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題：一個是今年2月，傳出海軍、海巡及外交部的一些採購合約資料外洩，而且是由中華電信所外洩，包含海軍司令部租用的衛星轉換器、外交部對外的資訊合作案，還有中華電信幫海巡署安裝衛星通訊等等。因為已經有一段時間了，所以我想請問，當時曾說要調查，調查結果如何？"],["蔡局長明彥：委員提到兩個案子，一個是有沒有可能暗網上有涉及到公部門相關的文件外洩？二來，外洩的文件有沒有經過篡改？就這部分，相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查，這是第一點……"],["王委員鴻薇：這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們要尊重行政部門調查的結果，因為他們進行的是部內的……"],["王委員鴻薇：到目前為止，都沒有任何訊息嗎？過去很多的外洩事件，譬如內政部戶政資料外洩，每一次都說調查中、調查中，但其實連有沒有外洩都沒有去證實！如果沒有證實又要如何防堵？如果只是說已經遭篡改，這是認知作戰，用這個來轉移話題的話，那麼這些問題就會一而再、再而三的發生。"],["蔡局長明彥：同意，非常同意。個案部分，我們沒有涉入他們的行政調查，所以這部分我們尊重。但是……"],["王委員鴻薇：不用報到國安局嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：就國安的角度，我就要跟委員解釋了。就國安角度來講，我們會稍微釐清一下可能問題會發生在哪裡？比如說第一，部會之間的電子公文交換系統有沒有問題？第二，就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題，會不會有人為因素？如在處理檔案過程當中有複製？然後在複製過程當中，違反了相關的資安規定？這部分也要注意。所以就國安的角度而言，我們認為會有些漏洞。跟委員報告，我在上禮拜有跟陳建仁院長提到這件事，我禮拜三早上跟他講之後，他禮拜三下午馬上就召集會議處理國安局所反映的問題。所以這部分是有一些密切的聯繫與議處。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛才講的有兩種可能，尤其第二種可能非常嚴重！第一個是你們在交換的過程裡有沒有外洩？第二個是可能有人複製這些檔案、外洩、賣給國外的暗網。我們發生這麼多機敏資料外洩問題，但最後都不了了之。接下來我們就看到問題一而再、再而三的發生，這樣未來有可能防堵嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：跟委員說明，一個部分是要針對個案釐清，每一件公文到底有沒有被外洩或偽造的可能性？第二，我剛剛跟委員提醒的是，就國安局的角度來講，我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞，提供給行政部門做快速處理。"],["王委員鴻薇：我認為對外界要有一個交代，有或沒有？有沒有進行懲外？而不是每一次都說這是認知作戰，輕輕帶過。","另外，在國安問題裡最近特別談到的是電價問題，包含能源問題。尤其最近頻頻發生區域性大停電，這其實也是國安危機，對不對？像台中火力發電廠已經有十部燃煤機組，現在要再準備興建兩部燃氣機組，並規劃興建十三座天然氣儲存槽。請問局長，當我們最重要的能源基礎設施，如此高度集中在某一個發電廠，而天然氣儲槽也高度集中在某一個發電廠的話，合適嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：就能源安全的部署來講，確實應該要儘量多元化，有多元的來源管道，這會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高。對於委員提到天然氣儲槽等各方面的建置狀況，我們認為這個非常的重要，在提升能源安全與韌性的過程當中非常重要。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以不應該過度集中？也許地方市長所關心的是不要造成空污，可是拉高到國安層級來看，如果我們未來的發電有百分之八十是火力發電，那麼其實已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應，然後又過度集中於某一個發電廠，這點從國安來看其實是有問題的，對不對？局長，你會留任，我也希望你們能把這個意見同樣向上反映。它不僅僅是能源的政策而已，還牽涉到國安，要分散風險，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：同意吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們尊重委員這樣的觀察，我們也會來反映，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"151950","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151950","tool":"pyannote","id":"151950-pyannote"},"job_id":"8rxPSEXec0T5fxLO","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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124.145, \"text\": \"我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 102.333, \"end\": 102.433, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 102.433, \"end\": 102.533, \"score\": 0.603}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 102.533, \"end\": 102.613, \"score\": 0.544}, {\"word\": \"尊\", \"start\": 102.613, \"end\": 102.793, \"score\": 0.869}, {\"word\": \"重\", \"start\": 102.793, \"end\": 102.993, \"score\": 0.882}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 102.993, \"end\": 103.134, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"政\", \"start\": 103.134, \"end\": 103.294, \"score\": 0.99}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 103.294, \"end\": 103.574, \"score\": 0.706}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 103.574, \"end\": 104.034, \"score\": 0.828}, {\"word\": \"調\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 104.034, \"end\": 104.214, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 104.214, \"end\": 104.574, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 230.699, \"end\": 230.819, \"score\": 0.621}, {\"word\": \"門\"}, {\"word\": \"做\", \"start\": 230.819, \"end\": 231.019, \"score\": 0.858}, {\"word\": \"快\", \"start\": 231.019, \"end\": 231.239, \"score\": 0.737}, {\"word\": \"速\", \"start\": 231.239, \"end\": 232.079, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 232.079, \"end\": 232.279, \"score\": 0.822}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 232.279, \"end\": 232.519, \"score\": 0.877}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 232.519, \"end\": 232.54, \"score\": 0.995}, {\"word\": \"認\"}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 232.54, \"end\": 233.66, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"應\"}, {\"word\": \"該\"}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 233.66, \"end\": 234.6, \"score\": 0.953}, {\"word\": \"對\"}, {\"word\": \"外\", \"start\": 234.6, \"end\": 234.84, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"界\", \"start\": 234.84, \"end\": 235.02, \"score\": 0.94}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 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00:00:46,325\n光是今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題一個是在今年的二月期間傳出我們的海軍海巡外交部的一些採購合約的資料外泄\n\n4\n00:00:50,669 --> 00:01:12,129\n那個時候這個是由中華電信,就是說中華電信的資料他外洩,因為這些資料包含什麼海軍司令部租用的一些衛星轉換器還有外交部的一些資訊合作案,對外資訊合作案,還有中華電信幫海巡署去安裝衛星通訊等等\n\n5\n00:01:12,930 --> 00:01:41,249\n那因為這個時間已經有一段時間了我想請問一下這個說當時說要去調查調查的結果如何因為委員提到的有兩個案子那一個部分是有沒有可能案往上有涉及到公部門相關的文件的外洩是不是有洩那二來是洩的文件有沒有經過篡改那這部分相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查這大概第一點這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況\n\n6\n00:01:42,333 --> 00:02:04,145\n我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵\n\n7\n00:02:04,645 --> 00:02:04,845\n不要糟蹋國安局嗎?\n\n8\n00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:51,886\n對就國安的角度我正要跟委員解釋就國安的角度來講我們會去稍微釐清一下有可能有可能的問題會發生在哪裡第一個比如說會不會部會之間的電子公文的交換系統有沒有問題那第二個就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題會不會有人為因為在處理檔案過程當中有複製然後複製過程當中有違反相關的資安規定這部分也要注意所以就國安的角度我們認為會有一些漏洞也跟委員報告\n\n9\n00:02:52,486 --> 00:02:57,047\n剛才講就是兩種可能我覺得第二種可能就非常嚴重囉第一個是說你們在交換的過程裡面有沒有外泄第二個是變成可能有人去複製這些檔案去外泄去賣給國外的暗網\n\n10\n00:03:19,051 --> 00:03:19,451\n未來有可能防堵嗎?\n\n11\n00:03:32,772 --> 00:03:55,921\n對,這是我跟委員說明的一個部分是針對個案要來釐清每一個公文裡面到底有沒有被外泄或偽造的可能性第二個我剛剛跟委員提醒的是我們就國安局的角度來講我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞然後來提供給行政部門做快速的處理我認為我們應該要對外界要有一個交代\n\n12\n00:03:56,681 --> 00:04:22,819\n有或沒有然後有沒有進行懲處而不是每一次都用這個是任職作戰然後就輕輕待過另外一個就是說其實我們在國安的問題裡面最近我們特別談到我們的電價問題包含我們的能源的問題那麼最近其實頻頻發生區域性的大停電其實這也是國安危機\n\n13\n00:04:24,461 --> 00:04:38,412\n另外,我想請教一下,最近台中火力八電廠現在已經有10部燃煤機組,現在要再準備興建2部燃氣機組,而且要規劃有13座天然氣儲存槽\n\n14\n00:04:44,136 --> 00:05:01,433\n我想請問局長如果當我們的發電這個最重要的能源基礎設施如此高度的集中在某一個發電廠然後我們的天然氣的除潮也高度的集中在某一個發電廠請問這個合適嗎\n\n15\n00:05:04,756 --> 00:05:26,642\n對我想就能源安全的部署來講確實應該要盡量的多元化多元的來源的管道會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高那對於委員在螢幕上有提到包括天然氣除潮各方面的建制的狀況我們認為這非常的重要在提升能源安全跟韌性的過程當中所以不應該過度集中\n\n16\n00:05:27,182 --> 00:05:47,118\n因為也許地方市長他所關心的是不要造成空污可是從拉高到一個國安的層級如果我們未來的發電用非發電80%火力發電其實這都已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應然後又過度集中在某一個發電廠這個從國安問題其實是有問題的對不對\n\n17\n00:05:51,562 --> 00:06:08,609\n那局長你會留任我也希望你們能把這個意見同樣的向上反映他不僅僅只是能源的問題政策而已他還牽涉到國安他要分散風險對不對同意吧對我們尊重委員這樣的觀察我們以後來反映謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n89\t290\t請蔡局長\n14016\t29951\t今天我們所討論議題其實涵蓋範圍非常大但是我們非常關心的就是在一些國外的暗網裡面有一些我們包含我們國防外交的一些機敏資料在國外的暗網裡面公然出售\n30692\t46325\t光是今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題一個是在今年的二月期間傳出我們的海軍海巡外交部的一些採購合約的資料外泄\n50669\t72129\t那個時候這個是由中華電信,就是說中華電信的資料他外洩,因為這些資料包含什麼海軍司令部租用的一些衛星轉換器還有外交部的一些資訊合作案,對外資訊合作案,還有中華電信幫海巡署去安裝衛星通訊等等\n72930\t101249\t那因為這個時間已經有一段時間了我想請問一下這個說當時說要去調查調查的結果如何因為委員提到的有兩個案子那一個部分是有沒有可能案往上有涉及到公部門相關的文件的外洩是不是有洩那二來是洩的文件有沒有經過篡改那這部分相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查這大概第一點這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況\n102333\t124145\t我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵\n124645\t124845\t不要糟蹋國安局嗎?\n144200\t171886\t對就國安的角度我正要跟委員解釋就國安的角度來講我們會去稍微釐清一下有可能有可能的問題會發生在哪裡第一個比如說會不會部會之間的電子公文的交換系統有沒有問題那第二個就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題會不會有人為因為在處理檔案過程當中有複製然後複製過程當中有違反相關的資安規定這部分也要注意所以就國安的角度我們認為會有一些漏洞也跟委員報告\n172486\t177047\t剛才講就是兩種可能我覺得第二種可能就非常嚴重囉第一個是說你們在交換的過程裡面有沒有外泄第二個是變成可能有人去複製這些檔案去外泄去賣給國外的暗網\n199051\t199451\t未來有可能防堵嗎?\n212772\t235921\t對,這是我跟委員說明的一個部分是針對個案要來釐清每一個公文裡面到底有沒有被外泄或偽造的可能性第二個我剛剛跟委員提醒的是我們就國安局的角度來講我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞然後來提供給行政部門做快速的處理我認為我們應該要對外界要有一個交代\n236681\t262819\t有或沒有然後有沒有進行懲處而不是每一次都用這個是任職作戰然後就輕輕待過另外一個就是說其實我們在國安的問題裡面最近我們特別談到我們的電價問題包含我們的能源的問題那麼最近其實頻頻發生區域性的大停電其實這也是國安危機\n264461\t278412\t另外,我想請教一下,最近台中火力八電廠現在已經有10部燃煤機組,現在要再準備興建2部燃氣機組,而且要規劃有13座天然氣儲存槽\n284136\t301433\t我想請問局長如果當我們的發電這個最重要的能源基礎設施如此高度的集中在某一個發電廠然後我們的天然氣的除潮也高度的集中在某一個發電廠請問這個合適嗎\n304756\t326642\t對我想就能源安全的部署來講確實應該要盡量的多元化多元的來源的管道會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高那對於委員在螢幕上有提到包括天然氣除潮各方面的建制的狀況我們認為這非常的重要在提升能源安全跟韌性的過程當中所以不應該過度集中\n327182\t347118\t因為也許地方市長他所關心的是不要造成空污可是從拉高到一個國安的層級如果我們未來的發電用非發電80%火力發電其實這都已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應然後又過度集中在某一個發電廠這個從國安問題其實是有問題的對不對\n351562\t368609\t那局長你會留任我也希望你們能把這個意見同樣的向上反映他不僅僅只是能源的問題政策而已他還牽涉到國安他要分散風險對不對同意吧對我們尊重委員這樣的觀察我們以後來反映謝謝委員\n","txt":"請蔡局長\n今天我們所討論議題其實涵蓋範圍非常大但是我們非常關心的就是在一些國外的暗網裡面有一些我們包含我們國防外交的一些機敏資料在國外的暗網裡面公然出售\n光是今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題一個是在今年的二月期間傳出我們的海軍海巡外交部的一些採購合約的資料外泄\n那個時候這個是由中華電信,就是說中華電信的資料他外洩,因為這些資料包含什麼海軍司令部租用的一些衛星轉換器還有外交部的一些資訊合作案,對外資訊合作案,還有中華電信幫海巡署去安裝衛星通訊等等\n那因為這個時間已經有一段時間了我想請問一下這個說當時說要去調查調查的結果如何因為委員提到的有兩個案子那一個部分是有沒有可能案往上有涉及到公部門相關的文件的外洩是不是有洩那二來是洩的文件有沒有經過篡改那這部分相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查這大概第一點這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況\n我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵\n不要糟蹋國安局嗎?\n對就國安的角度我正要跟委員解釋就國安的角度來講我們會去稍微釐清一下有可能有可能的問題會發生在哪裡第一個比如說會不會部會之間的電子公文的交換系統有沒有問題那第二個就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題會不會有人為因為在處理檔案過程當中有複製然後複製過程當中有違反相關的資安規定這部分也要注意所以就國安的角度我們認為會有一些漏洞也跟委員報告\n剛才講就是兩種可能我覺得第二種可能就非常嚴重囉第一個是說你們在交換的過程裡面有沒有外泄第二個是變成可能有人去複製這些檔案去外泄去賣給國外的暗網\n未來有可能防堵嗎?\n對,這是我跟委員說明的一個部分是針對個案要來釐清每一個公文裡面到底有沒有被外泄或偽造的可能性第二個我剛剛跟委員提醒的是我們就國安局的角度來講我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞然後來提供給行政部門做快速的處理我認為我們應該要對外界要有一個交代\n有或沒有然後有沒有進行懲處而不是每一次都用這個是任職作戰然後就輕輕待過另外一個就是說其實我們在國安的問題裡面最近我們特別談到我們的電價問題包含我們的能源的問題那麼最近其實頻頻發生區域性的大停電其實這也是國安危機\n另外,我想請教一下,最近台中火力八電廠現在已經有10部燃煤機組,現在要再準備興建2部燃氣機組,而且要規劃有13座天然氣儲存槽\n我想請問局長如果當我們的發電這個最重要的能源基礎設施如此高度的集中在某一個發電廠然後我們的天然氣的除潮也高度的集中在某一個發電廠請問這個合適嗎\n對我想就能源安全的部署來講確實應該要盡量的多元化多元的來源的管道會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高那對於委員在螢幕上有提到包括天然氣除潮各方面的建制的狀況我們認為這非常的重要在提升能源安全跟韌性的過程當中所以不應該過度集中\n因為也許地方市長他所關心的是不要造成空污可是從拉高到一個國安的層級如果我們未來的發電用非發電80%火力發電其實這都已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應然後又過度集中在某一個發電廠這個從國安問題其實是有問題的對不對\n那局長你會留任我也希望你們能把這個意見同樣的向上反映他不僅僅只是能源的問題政策而已他還牽涉到國安他要分散風險對不對同意吧對我們尊重委員這樣的觀察我們以後來反映謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.089 --> 00:00.290\n請蔡局長\n\n00:14.016 --> 00:29.951\n今天我們所討論議題其實涵蓋範圍非常大但是我們非常關心的就是在一些國外的暗網裡面有一些我們包含我們國防外交的一些機敏資料在國外的暗網裡面公然出售\n\n00:30.692 --> 00:46.325\n光是今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題一個是在今年的二月期間傳出我們的海軍海巡外交部的一些採購合約的資料外泄\n\n00:50.669 --> 01:12.129\n那個時候這個是由中華電信,就是說中華電信的資料他外洩,因為這些資料包含什麼海軍司令部租用的一些衛星轉換器還有外交部的一些資訊合作案,對外資訊合作案,還有中華電信幫海巡署去安裝衛星通訊等等\n\n01:12.930 --> 01:41.249\n那因為這個時間已經有一段時間了我想請問一下這個說當時說要去調查調查的結果如何因為委員提到的有兩個案子那一個部分是有沒有可能案往上有涉及到公部門相關的文件的外洩是不是有洩那二來是洩的文件有沒有經過篡改那這部分相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查這大概第一點這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況\n\n01:42.333 --> 02:04.145\n我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵\n\n02:04.645 --> 02:04.845\n不要糟蹋國安局嗎?\n\n02:24.200 --> 02:51.886\n對就國安的角度我正要跟委員解釋就國安的角度來講我們會去稍微釐清一下有可能有可能的問題會發生在哪裡第一個比如說會不會部會之間的電子公文的交換系統有沒有問題那第二個就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題會不會有人為因為在處理檔案過程當中有複製然後複製過程當中有違反相關的資安規定這部分也要注意所以就國安的角度我們認為會有一些漏洞也跟委員報告\n\n02:52.486 --> 02:57.047\n剛才講就是兩種可能我覺得第二種可能就非常嚴重囉第一個是說你們在交換的過程裡面有沒有外泄第二個是變成可能有人去複製這些檔案去外泄去賣給國外的暗網\n\n03:19.051 --> 03:19.451\n未來有可能防堵嗎?\n\n03:32.772 --> 03:55.921\n對,這是我跟委員說明的一個部分是針對個案要來釐清每一個公文裡面到底有沒有被外泄或偽造的可能性第二個我剛剛跟委員提醒的是我們就國安局的角度來講我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞然後來提供給行政部門做快速的處理我認為我們應該要對外界要有一個交代\n\n03:56.681 --> 04:22.819\n有或沒有然後有沒有進行懲處而不是每一次都用這個是任職作戰然後就輕輕待過另外一個就是說其實我們在國安的問題裡面最近我們特別談到我們的電價問題包含我們的能源的問題那麼最近其實頻頻發生區域性的大停電其實這也是國安危機\n\n04:24.461 --> 04:38.412\n另外,我想請教一下,最近台中火力八電廠現在已經有10部燃煤機組,現在要再準備興建2部燃氣機組,而且要規劃有13座天然氣儲存槽\n\n04:44.136 --> 05:01.433\n我想請問局長如果當我們的發電這個最重要的能源基礎設施如此高度的集中在某一個發電廠然後我們的天然氣的除潮也高度的集中在某一個發電廠請問這個合適嗎\n\n05:04.756 --> 05:26.642\n對我想就能源安全的部署來講確實應該要盡量的多元化多元的來源的管道會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高那對於委員在螢幕上有提到包括天然氣除潮各方面的建制的狀況我們認為這非常的重要在提升能源安全跟韌性的過程當中所以不應該過度集中\n\n05:27.182 --> 05:47.118\n因為也許地方市長他所關心的是不要造成空污可是從拉高到一個國安的層級如果我們未來的發電用非發電80%火力發電其實這都已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應然後又過度集中在某一個發電廠這個從國安問題其實是有問題的對不對\n\n05:51.562 --> 06:08.609\n那局長你會留任我也希望你們能把這個意見同樣的向上反映他不僅僅只是能源的問題政策而已他還牽涉到國安他要分散風險對不對同意吧對我們尊重委員這樣的觀察我們以後來反映謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.29,"text":"請蔡局長"},{"start":14.016,"end":29.951,"text":"今天我們所討論議題其實涵蓋範圍非常大但是我們非常關心的就是在一些國外的暗網裡面有一些我們包含我們國防外交的一些機敏資料在國外的暗網裡面公然出售"},{"start":30.692,"end":46.325,"text":"光是今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題一個是在今年的二月期間傳出我們的海軍海巡外交部的一些採購合約的資料外泄"},{"start":50.669,"end":72.129,"text":"那個時候這個是由中華電信,就是說中華電信的資料他外洩,因為這些資料包含什麼海軍司令部租用的一些衛星轉換器還有外交部的一些資訊合作案,對外資訊合作案,還有中華電信幫海巡署去安裝衛星通訊等等"},{"start":72.93,"end":101.249,"text":"那因為這個時間已經有一段時間了我想請問一下這個說當時說要去調查調查的結果如何因為委員提到的有兩個案子那一個部分是有沒有可能案往上有涉及到公部門相關的文件的外洩是不是有洩那二來是洩的文件有沒有經過篡改那這部分相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查這大概第一點這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況"},{"start":102.333,"end":124.145,"text":"我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵"},{"start":124.645,"end":124.845,"text":"不要糟蹋國安局嗎?"},{"start":144.2,"end":171.886,"text":"對就國安的角度我正要跟委員解釋就國安的角度來講我們會去稍微釐清一下有可能有可能的問題會發生在哪裡第一個比如說會不會部會之間的電子公文的交換系統有沒有問題那第二個就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題會不會有人為因為在處理檔案過程當中有複製然後複製過程當中有違反相關的資安規定這部分也要注意所以就國安的角度我們認為會有一些漏洞也跟委員報告"},{"start":172.486,"end":177.047,"text":"剛才講就是兩種可能我覺得第二種可能就非常嚴重囉第一個是說你們在交換的過程裡面有沒有外泄第二個是變成可能有人去複製這些檔案去外泄去賣給國外的暗網"},{"start":199.051,"end":199.451,"text":"未來有可能防堵嗎?"},{"start":212.772,"end":235.921,"text":"對,這是我跟委員說明的一個部分是針對個案要來釐清每一個公文裡面到底有沒有被外泄或偽造的可能性第二個我剛剛跟委員提醒的是我們就國安局的角度來講我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞然後來提供給行政部門做快速的處理我認為我們應該要對外界要有一個交代"},{"start":236.681,"end":262.819,"text":"有或沒有然後有沒有進行懲處而不是每一次都用這個是任職作戰然後就輕輕待過另外一個就是說其實我們在國安的問題裡面最近我們特別談到我們的電價問題包含我們的能源的問題那麼最近其實頻頻發生區域性的大停電其實這也是國安危機"},{"start":264.461,"end":278.412,"text":"另外,我想請教一下,最近台中火力八電廠現在已經有10部燃煤機組,現在要再準備興建2部燃氣機組,而且要規劃有13座天然氣儲存槽"},{"start":284.136,"end":301.433,"text":"我想請問局長如果當我們的發電這個最重要的能源基礎設施如此高度的集中在某一個發電廠然後我們的天然氣的除潮也高度的集中在某一個發電廠請問這個合適嗎"},{"start":304.756,"end":326.642,"text":"對我想就能源安全的部署來講確實應該要盡量的多元化多元的來源的管道會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高那對於委員在螢幕上有提到包括天然氣除潮各方面的建制的狀況我們認為這非常的重要在提升能源安全跟韌性的過程當中所以不應該過度集中"},{"start":327.182,"end":347.118,"text":"因為也許地方市長他所關心的是不要造成空污可是從拉高到一個國安的層級如果我們未來的發電用非發電80%火力發電其實這都已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應然後又過度集中在某一個發電廠這個從國安問題其實是有問題的對不對"},{"start":351.562,"end":368.609,"text":"那局長你會留任我也希望你們能把這個意見同樣的向上反映他不僅僅只是能源的問題政策而已他還牽涉到國安他要分散風險對不對同意吧對我們尊重委員這樣的觀察我們以後來反映謝謝委員"}]}}}}