{"id":151954,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b057be6f79f11e5be900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919b72c32b5d42b44535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:17:08 - 10:30:27","影片長度":"00:13:19","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":799,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:30:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:17:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時17分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請主計長？"],["主席：請主計長。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長好，快退休了，要讓你多講一點……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我很愉快的打了一條紅領帶來，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活，做一些自己想做的事情。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝委員的關心。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，你是北漂到臺北來工作的對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我是……"],["李委員彥秀：你是臺南人，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我18歲就在臺北工作了，我離家很久……"],["李委員彥秀：對，我知道你念臺南白河的竹門國小，國中、高中都在臺南，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對、對、對，我跟賴委員是……"],["李委員彥秀：你是大學之後才念政大財稅系，然後念研究所……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的、是的。"],["李委員彥秀：然後北漂留在臺北工作，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對、對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你很幸運也很努力，工作8年之後就在臺北市買了一間房子，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我看看我是什麼時候買的……"],["李委員彥秀：我看到你的報稅資料，你工作8年之後……"],["朱主計長澤民：我自己都忘記了，謝謝委員提醒。"],["李委員彥秀：你自己有一間房子，在民國72年買一間房子，你也很念舊，72年買的房到現在還在……"],["朱主計長澤民：對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：當時買一坪多少錢，你還記得嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：一坪大概十萬多塊，在大安路，現在舊房子有人說要跟我出八十幾萬，謝謝……"],["李委員彥秀：十萬塊，好，現在大概八十幾萬……"],["朱主計長澤民：委員要嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：當時買的時候，你年輕的時候……"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟賴委員、主席是同樣故鄉的，都是努力向上的人，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：對、對，當時你們那個年代，年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢，也有機會打造你的夢想、完成你的夢想買一間房子，當時買十萬塊，現在已經漲到八十幾萬……"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有夢想啦！我只是努力去兼課付貸款，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：也有付貸款？好，那我們現在年輕人努力工作8年，也付貸款，會不會有同樣的結果，我們等一下來看。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我們來看下一張簡報，主計長，我要跟你討論的其實並不是風花雪月，因為我大學念的也是經濟系，所以我對於數字其實有一定的想法跟敏感度。主計長，我們昨天公布了家庭財富分配的狀況，剛才你也回答了賴委員，有關於家庭財富分配的統計狀況，針對30年前跟30年後，我們看到這個數據，你有什麼感想？為什麼你會突然在這兩、三年想做這件事情？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我們有所得的調查、所得的分配，所得的分配是個流量，但是我們的存量一直缺乏，中研院朱敬一院士也鼓勵我做，我希望我在這8年之內把它當成一個使命來做，所以我必須……"],["李委員彥秀：那你看到這個數字的結果，你的感想、你的結論是什麼？"],["朱主計長澤民：我的意思是我們有努力的空間，可是相對於其他國家，我們是比較平均的，不過我必須跟委員報告，在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意，就像我剛才所講的，我三十多年前的房子是用一坪十萬塊買，四十幾坪是四百多萬，我現在住在裡面，它是值三千多萬，可是我房子越住越舊，所以我財富由四百多萬增加到三千多萬，事實上使用這個數字要特別注意，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：感謝主計長，其實我們要突顯的是幾個問題，看到這個數據，其實前面20%的家庭累積的財富平均是5,133萬，最底端20%只有77萬，財富的差距高達66.9倍，其實也突顯出家庭的貧富差距事實上是非常高的，我也關注到潘處長做這個普查也非常的辛苦……"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是潘處長昨天也講過，30年前不少南部的人北漂工作置產，如果留在南部的話，房地產發展區域不同，財富就會有不同的差距，他是不是拿你來當做model講這個結論？"],["朱主計長澤民：您的意思是什麼？"],["潘處長寧馨：跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：昨天分析這個數字的時候，他講到很多人北漂，所以過去有置產，我就直接想到主計長你的案例，所以他是用你來做案例嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！我的案例給他用也無所謂，因為我剛才講，我以前的房子400萬，現在是三千多萬，我還是住在裡面……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：如果這樣講的話，那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人、沒有在臺北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧了喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是這個意思啦！每個人都不一樣啊！我的同學、甚至是我的學生都比我有錢耶！而且都坐在下面……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，你從事公務人員，無論你在哪個階段，你這一輩子大多數的時間幾乎都是公務人員……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：其實公務人員做財稅也好、資源分配的合理性也好，包括召委今天排這個法案也好，去年費鴻泰召委也排過同樣的法案……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位共同的責任……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，委員講的對……"],["李委員彥秀：不是說我有機會選擇到臺北來……我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想、選擇他喜歡的工作、選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境，現在臺灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長，政府在說現在經濟很好，但是現在大多數還在工作的人，從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的、無感的，所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長，特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，委員的用心很好，所以我們才要有財富分配，而且每幾年要做一次，不必每年做，因為財富是一個存量，存量在短期間不會變化很大，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：所以主計長，讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，所以我昨天去……"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得是我們每一個人的責任，賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合作夢、悠然過日子的地方，但是以今天財富分配的狀況，年輕人還能說有臺灣夢嗎？臺灣資源分配狀況的不合理性，我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代，打拼6年、8年就可以買房子，恐怕是很困難的，這個是我今天看到你們最近做出來的研究數據報告的結論。"],["朱主計長澤民：我同意委員的觀點，所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料，讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：但是主計長，對於未來決策的參考，剛才賴委員有講，我覺得30年做一次是真的有一點久……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們不會……"],["李委員彥秀：10年應該合理的做一次啦！然後剛才你回答賴士葆委員說他們可能投資錯誤，其實主計長，你有機會退休之後到各個家庭、平常家庭去看看，不要說理財分配，他們是根本沒有錢去做理財啦！我要直接告訴你這件事。"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告，因為我剛才漏了一項，有很多人落入到最低的百分之一，是因為他是資產減掉負債，就是他資產高負債也高，而他負債高就是代表他要去銀行借錢，他沒有資產，人家也不會借給他，所以他就是財務槓桿操作過度，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的作法是完全不一樣，沒錢的人只能借錢去過生活，沒有所謂拿來做財務槓桿的空間，我要提醒你。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題，雖然時間剩下的有限，但是我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說，現在受僱人員分配比較少的原因，最主要是因為雇主或自營業的人占了百分之十五，這是經濟部的報告，沒有計入營業盈餘，所以受僱人員的報酬比有受影響。國發會的報告也是如此。但是主計處的報告就比較完整，它說雇主也好、未領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值，我們很難區分它到底是來自於勞動或資本。所以主計長，你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告，還是你覺得你的報告比較完整？"],["朱主計長澤民：它的內容講得並沒有錯，我們只是說因為這個很難區分，所以在國際間的慣例都均……"],["李委員彥秀：但是主計長，我覺得這個是一份報告各自解讀，同樣的報告，無論是今天的召委排了，過去國民黨的召委費鴻泰也排了，可見對於受僱人員的薪資、經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工，朝野黨派的委員都覺得這件事情是非常嚴重也值得重視的，所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會，在這件事情上，這不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說，這個是數字，沒有計算很完整，然後你們就拍拍屁股什麼都不做。去年同樣的專案報告排了一次，今年又排一次，但是如果在這個位置上，你們有能力可以做決策、可以做更好的社會資源分配或者是企業轉型，而你們卻沒有做任何事情的話，我覺得臺灣的勞工或受僱人員永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利。","所以我在這邊，我只叫主計長出來，我覺得你的報告回答比較完整，但是我認為比較遺憾的是，如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞，說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把其他的雇主成員納入所謂的報酬的話，那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在受僱人員分配過低的問題，這是一個主要的原因，更何況過去十年來，受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年降低，你不要拿過去其他的比例說，過去臺灣自僱的員工也好，受僱的員工也好，皆長期有這樣子的狀態，這個結構長期都是如此，但是在GDP占比上，受僱人員卻是過去十年來的新低。主計長，你同意我的說法吧？我們跟自己比就知道了嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：我們勞工的比例，現在是因為少子化，勞工比例是慢慢往下的趨勢的話，這個比例將來仍然可能會是這種現象，因為就業人數變少了，謝謝。他不是失業，而是說……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比是兩件事情。"],["朱主計長澤民：對啦。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們要強調的是受僱人員，就是我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟紅利。"],["朱主計長澤民：剛才委員很關心的，我們要利用各種重分配的政策，讓弱勢的人能夠得到更多的……"],["李委員彥秀：但是從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告來看，如果你們還在搪塞，還在找幾個理由來美化這些數字、來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話，我覺得受僱人員永遠就是在最低的底端，我們永遠沒有機會把這群人拉高，跟南韓來比，過去南韓的經濟成長率還沒有臺灣好，但是他們受僱人員GDP占比比臺灣好太多了，我想這個數字，央行剛好打你們的臉。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：你好好看一看。"],["朱主計長澤民：央行不會打臉我啦，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：打臉國發會跟經濟部，請大家好好看一下。"],["主席：好，謝謝彥秀委員。","接著請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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\"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"布\", \"start\": 146.711, \"end\": 146.911, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"了\", \"start\": 146.911, \"end\": 148.651, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"整\", \"start\": 148.651, \"end\": 149.112, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 149.112, \"end\": 149.332, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 149.332, \"end\": 149.732, \"score\": 0.948}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"富\", \"start\": 149.732, \"end\": 149.892, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 149.892, \"end\": 150.072, \"score\": 0.925}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 150.072, \"end\": 150.252, \"score\": 0.842}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 150.252, \"end\": 151.412, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"剛\"}, {\"word\": \"才\", \"start\": 151.412, \"end\": 151.552, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"你\", \"start\": 151.552, \"end\": 151.652, \"score\": 0.812}, {\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 151.652, \"end\": 151.772, \"score\": 0.805}, {\"word\": \"回\", \"start\": 151.772, \"end\": 151.932, \"score\": 0.878}, {\"word\": \"答\", \"start\": 151.932, \"end\": 152.812, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"賴\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 152.812, \"end\": 154.433, \"score\": 0.907}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 154.433, \"end\": 154.593, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"庭\", \"start\": 154.593, \"end\": 154.953, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"財\"}, {\"word\": \"富\", \"start\": 154.953, \"end\": 155.153, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 155.153, \"end\": 155.333, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"配\", \"start\": 155.333, \"end\": 155.533, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 155.533, \"end\": 155.673, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"計\"}, {\"word\": \"狀\"}, {\"word\": \"況\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"0\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 155.673, \"end\": 155.893, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 155.893, \"end\": 156.013, 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\"end\": 772.347, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"郭\", \"start\": 772.347, \"end\": 772.507, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"國\"}, {\"word\": \"文\", \"start\": 772.507, \"end\": 772.587, \"score\": 0.744}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 772.587, \"end\": 772.607, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"質\"}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:02,254 --> 00:00:08,643\n主計長好快退休了我要讓你多講一點所以萬人愉快打了一條紅領帶來謝謝好\n\n2\n00:00:11,547 --> 00:00:25,190\n我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活做一些自己想做的事情主計長你是北漂到台北來對不對你是北漂到台北來工作的對不對我58歲就在台北工作了我知道你在台南白河的竹門國小、國中\n\n3\n00:00:36,153 --> 00:00:57,054\n國中、高中都在台南嘛,對不對?那你是大學之後才念政大,才睡戲,然後念研究所,然後就漂流在台北工作,對不對?所以你很幸運,也很努力工作8年之後,在台北市就買了一間房子嘛,對不對?\n\n4\n00:00:58,135 --> 00:01:14,312\n沒有,我看看我是什麼時候買的我看到你的報稅的資料我自己都忘記了,謝謝委員提醒你自己有一個房子,72年沒一個房子你也很念舊,72年買的房子到現在還在\n\n5\n00:01:16,995 --> 00:01:39,107\n當時買一瓶多少錢你還記得嗎一瓶大概十萬多塊在大安路現在舊房子都他們有人說要跟我出十萬塊所以要跟我出八十幾萬謝謝現在大概八十幾萬了當時買的時候你年輕的時候我跟賴委員主席是同樣的故鄉的都是努力向上的人謝謝\n\n6\n00:01:41,028 --> 00:01:53,336\n當時你們那個年代年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢然後也有機會打造你的夢想完成你的夢想買一間房我沒有夢想我只是努力去兼課賺付貸款謝謝\n\n7\n00:02:10,887 --> 00:02:36,093\n我們來看下一張主計長我要跟你討論其實並不是風花雪月因為我對於數字因為我大學念的也是經濟系所以對於數字其實我有一定的想法跟敏感度所以主計長我們昨天公布了整個家庭財富分配的狀況剛才你也回答賴委員家庭財富分配的統計狀況30年前跟30年後\n\n8\n00:02:39,634 --> 00:02:53,522\n我們看到這個數據你有什麼感想為什麼突然在這兩三年你會想做這件事情因為我們有所得的調查有所得的分配所得的分配是一個流量但是我們的存量一直缺乏這個那我們跟像我跟\n\n9\n00:02:56,403 --> 00:02:57,564\n那你看到這個數字的結果你的感想你的結論\n\n10\n00:03:11,912 --> 00:03:38,232\n我的意思是說我們有努力的空間可是我們相對其他國家我們是比較平均的不過我必須跟委員報告在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意就像我剛才所講的我30多年前的房子是用一坪10萬塊買那個40幾坪是400多萬我現在住在裡面它都是值3000多萬可是我房子愈租愈舊所以我財富有400多萬\n\n11\n00:03:39,213 --> 00:03:40,294\n財富的差距高達66.9倍\n\n12\n00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:32,659\n這個66.9倍其實也凸顯出家庭的這個貧富差距其實上是非常高的那我也關注到我們的潘處長其實做這個普查其實也非常的辛苦但是潘處長昨天也講過說30年前不少南部的人北漂工作自產如果留在南部的話房地產啊發展區域不同財富就會有不同的差距他是不是拿你來當作model來講這個結論\n\n13\n00:04:34,728 --> 00:04:34,928\n主席長\n\n14\n00:05:02,702 --> 00:05:29,927\n那如果這樣講的話那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人沒有在台北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧囉不是這個意思啦個人的不一樣啊我的同學裡面甚至我學生裡面他們都比我有錢啊主計長我要講的是你從事公務人員吼無論你在哪個階段你這一輩子幾乎大多數的時間都是公務人員其實公務人員\n\n15\n00:05:31,807 --> 00:05:52,162\n做財稅也好資源分配的合理性也好包括昭緯今天排這個法案也好其實去年費鴻泰昭緯也排過同樣的法案就是說我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位大家共同的責任不是說我有機會我選擇到台北來\n\n16\n00:05:55,484 --> 00:06:13,293\n那我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想選擇他喜歡的工作選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境我們現在台灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長政府在說現在經濟很好但是大多數的\n\n17\n00:06:14,473 --> 00:06:39,469\n現在還在工作從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的是無感的所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高委員的用心很好所以我們才要有財富分配而且每幾年要做一次不必每年做因為財富是一個存量存量在短期間不會變化很大謝謝\n\n18\n00:06:40,620 --> 00:07:00,631\n所以主計長這個讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢我覺得是我們每一個人的責任賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合做夢、悠然過日子的地方但是以今天財富分配的狀況\n\n19\n00:07:01,952 --> 00:07:11,697\n年輕人還能說有台灣夢嗎?說我們資源分配的狀況不合理性我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代86年、80年就可以買房子我覺得恐怕是很困難的這個是我今天看到最近你們做的這個數據報告、研究報告出來我的結論\n\n20\n00:07:25,205 --> 00:07:53,361\n我同意委員的觀點所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考但是主計長未來這個決策參考剛才賴委員有講我覺得30年做一次是真的有點久我們不會展明應該合理的做一次啦然後剛才你回答這個賴氏寶委員說這個他們可能投資錯誤其實主計長你有機會退休之後到各個家庭平常家庭去看看\n\n21\n00:07:54,341 --> 00:08:19,382\n不要說理財分配他們可能連理財根本沒有錢去做理財啦我要直接告訴你這件事情我跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才錄了一下有很多人繞入到最低的百分之五因為他是資產減掉負債他資產高也負債也高他負債高就是代表說你要去銀行借錢你沒有資產人家也不會借給你所以他就是什麼財務槓桿操作過度謝謝\n\n22\n00:08:23,171 --> 00:08:31,896\n主席長財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的做法是完全不一樣財務槓桿沒錢人只能借錢去過生活沒有所謂來做財務槓桿的空間我要提醒你主席長我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題雖然時間剩下的有限但是\n\n23\n00:08:46,544 --> 00:09:00,774\n我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說我們現在受僱人員的分配比較少的原因最主要是因為僱主或自營業的人呢占了15%這是經濟部的報告沒有納入沒有記錄這個營業盈餘所以我們受僱人員的報酬比有受影響國發會的報告也是如此但是主計處的報告就比較完整他說\n\n24\n00:09:16,284 --> 00:09:44,526\n因為我們的僱主也好為領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值我們很難去區分他到底是來自於勞動或資本所以主計長你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告還是你覺得你的報告比較完整他的那個內容講的並沒有錯那我們只是說因為這個事是什麼很難區分所以在國際線的慣例都均\n\n25\n00:09:44,926 --> 00:10:02,639\n但是主計長我覺得齁這個是一份報告各自解讀啦同樣的報告無論是今天的召委排了過去國民黨的召委費洪泰也排了可見我們對於受僱人員的薪資經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工\n\n26\n00:10:03,820 --> 00:10:27,014\n朝野黨派的委員都對於這件事情是覺得非常嚴重也覺得值得重視的所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會在這件事情上就不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說這個是數字沒有計算很完整那你們拍拍屁股什麼都不做去年類似同樣專案報告排了一次今年又排一次\n\n27\n00:10:27,754 --> 00:10:55,618\n但是如果在這個位置上你們有能力可以做決策可以做更好的支援分配或我們的企業轉型我們沒有做任何事情的話那我覺得臺灣的勞工也好受僱人員的這個永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利所以我在這邊我只叫主計長出來我覺得你的報告回答\n\n28\n00:10:57,610 --> 00:11:22,345\n我認為比較遺憾的是如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把所謂的家裡的其他成員其他的僱主成員納入所謂的報酬的話那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在我們受僱人員分配過低的\n\n29\n00:11:23,246 --> 00:11:48,947\n一個主要的原因更何況過去10年來我們受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年逐年降低你不要跟我拿過去其他的比例說我們過去長期我們臺灣的這個自僱的員工也好受僱的員工也好長期有這樣子的狀態那個結構長期都是如此但是我們在GDP占比受僱人員卻是過去10年來的新低\n\n30\n00:11:50,168 --> 00:12:12,645\n主計長你同意我的說法我們跟自己比就知道了嘛我們勞工的那個比例現在是因為少子化勞工比例是往慢慢的往下的趨勢的話這個比例將來仍然可能會有這種現象因為他就業人數變少了謝謝他不是事業主計長\n\n31\n00:12:14,987 --> 00:12:36,270\n人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比這是兩件事情勞工少但是我們要強調的是受僱人員就是說我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟同理所以剛才委員說很關心的我們要利用各種重分配的政策讓他能夠弱勢的人能夠得到更多的\n\n32\n00:12:36,630 --> 00:12:45,200\n但是如果從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告還在搪塞找幾個理由來美化這些數字來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話那我覺得受僱人員永遠就是\n\n33\n00:12:51,787 --> 00:12:52,607\n好謝謝彥秀委員接著請郭國文委員質詢\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n2254\t8643\t主計長好快退休了我要讓你多講一點所以萬人愉快打了一條紅領帶來謝謝好\n11547\t25190\t我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活做一些自己想做的事情主計長你是北漂到台北來對不對你是北漂到台北來工作的對不對我58歲就在台北工作了我知道你在台南白河的竹門國小、國中\n36153\t57054\t國中、高中都在台南嘛,對不對?那你是大學之後才念政大,才睡戲,然後念研究所,然後就漂流在台北工作,對不對?所以你很幸運,也很努力工作8年之後,在台北市就買了一間房子嘛,對不對?\n58135\t74312\t沒有,我看看我是什麼時候買的我看到你的報稅的資料我自己都忘記了,謝謝委員提醒你自己有一個房子,72年沒一個房子你也很念舊,72年買的房子到現在還在\n76995\t99107\t當時買一瓶多少錢你還記得嗎一瓶大概十萬多塊在大安路現在舊房子都他們有人說要跟我出十萬塊所以要跟我出八十幾萬謝謝現在大概八十幾萬了當時買的時候你年輕的時候我跟賴委員主席是同樣的故鄉的都是努力向上的人謝謝\n101028\t113336\t當時你們那個年代年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢然後也有機會打造你的夢想完成你的夢想買一間房我沒有夢想我只是努力去兼課賺付貸款謝謝\n130887\t156093\t我們來看下一張主計長我要跟你討論其實並不是風花雪月因為我對於數字因為我大學念的也是經濟系所以對於數字其實我有一定的想法跟敏感度所以主計長我們昨天公布了整個家庭財富分配的狀況剛才你也回答賴委員家庭財富分配的統計狀況30年前跟30年後\n159634\t173522\t我們看到這個數據你有什麼感想為什麼突然在這兩三年你會想做這件事情因為我們有所得的調查有所得的分配所得的分配是一個流量但是我們的存量一直缺乏這個那我們跟像我跟\n176403\t177564\t那你看到這個數字的結果你的感想你的結論\n191912\t218232\t我的意思是說我們有努力的空間可是我們相對其他國家我們是比較平均的不過我必須跟委員報告在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意就像我剛才所講的我30多年前的房子是用一坪10萬塊買那個40幾坪是400多萬我現在住在裡面它都是值3000多萬可是我房子愈租愈舊所以我財富有400多萬\n219213\t220294\t財富的差距高達66.9倍\n245970\t272659\t這個66.9倍其實也凸顯出家庭的這個貧富差距其實上是非常高的那我也關注到我們的潘處長其實做這個普查其實也非常的辛苦但是潘處長昨天也講過說30年前不少南部的人北漂工作自產如果留在南部的話房地產啊發展區域不同財富就會有不同的差距他是不是拿你來當作model來講這個結論\n274728\t274928\t主席長\n302702\t329927\t那如果這樣講的話那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人沒有在台北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧囉不是這個意思啦個人的不一樣啊我的同學裡面甚至我學生裡面他們都比我有錢啊主計長我要講的是你從事公務人員吼無論你在哪個階段你這一輩子幾乎大多數的時間都是公務人員其實公務人員\n331807\t352162\t做財稅也好資源分配的合理性也好包括昭緯今天排這個法案也好其實去年費鴻泰昭緯也排過同樣的法案就是說我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位大家共同的責任不是說我有機會我選擇到台北來\n355484\t373293\t那我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想選擇他喜歡的工作選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境我們現在台灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長政府在說現在經濟很好但是大多數的\n374473\t399469\t現在還在工作從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的是無感的所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高委員的用心很好所以我們才要有財富分配而且每幾年要做一次不必每年做因為財富是一個存量存量在短期間不會變化很大謝謝\n400620\t420631\t所以主計長這個讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢我覺得是我們每一個人的責任賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合做夢、悠然過日子的地方但是以今天財富分配的狀況\n421952\t431697\t年輕人還能說有台灣夢嗎?說我們資源分配的狀況不合理性我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代86年、80年就可以買房子我覺得恐怕是很困難的這個是我今天看到最近你們做的這個數據報告、研究報告出來我的結論\n445205\t473361\t我同意委員的觀點所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考但是主計長未來這個決策參考剛才賴委員有講我覺得30年做一次是真的有點久我們不會展明應該合理的做一次啦然後剛才你回答這個賴氏寶委員說這個他們可能投資錯誤其實主計長你有機會退休之後到各個家庭平常家庭去看看\n474341\t499382\t不要說理財分配他們可能連理財根本沒有錢去做理財啦我要直接告訴你這件事情我跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才錄了一下有很多人繞入到最低的百分之五因為他是資產減掉負債他資產高也負債也高他負債高就是代表說你要去銀行借錢你沒有資產人家也不會借給你所以他就是什麼財務槓桿操作過度謝謝\n503171\t511896\t主席長財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的做法是完全不一樣財務槓桿沒錢人只能借錢去過生活沒有所謂來做財務槓桿的空間我要提醒你主席長我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題雖然時間剩下的有限但是\n526544\t540774\t我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說我們現在受僱人員的分配比較少的原因最主要是因為僱主或自營業的人呢占了15%這是經濟部的報告沒有納入沒有記錄這個營業盈餘所以我們受僱人員的報酬比有受影響國發會的報告也是如此但是主計處的報告就比較完整他說\n556284\t584526\t因為我們的僱主也好為領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值我們很難去區分他到底是來自於勞動或資本所以主計長你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告還是你覺得你的報告比較完整他的那個內容講的並沒有錯那我們只是說因為這個事是什麼很難區分所以在國際線的慣例都均\n584926\t602639\t但是主計長我覺得齁這個是一份報告各自解讀啦同樣的報告無論是今天的召委排了過去國民黨的召委費洪泰也排了可見我們對於受僱人員的薪資經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工\n603820\t627014\t朝野黨派的委員都對於這件事情是覺得非常嚴重也覺得值得重視的所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會在這件事情上就不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說這個是數字沒有計算很完整那你們拍拍屁股什麼都不做去年類似同樣專案報告排了一次今年又排一次\n627754\t655618\t但是如果在這個位置上你們有能力可以做決策可以做更好的支援分配或我們的企業轉型我們沒有做任何事情的話那我覺得臺灣的勞工也好受僱人員的這個永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利所以我在這邊我只叫主計長出來我覺得你的報告回答\n657610\t682345\t我認為比較遺憾的是如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把所謂的家裡的其他成員其他的僱主成員納入所謂的報酬的話那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在我們受僱人員分配過低的\n683246\t708947\t一個主要的原因更何況過去10年來我們受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年逐年降低你不要跟我拿過去其他的比例說我們過去長期我們臺灣的這個自僱的員工也好受僱的員工也好長期有這樣子的狀態那個結構長期都是如此但是我們在GDP占比受僱人員卻是過去10年來的新低\n710168\t732645\t主計長你同意我的說法我們跟自己比就知道了嘛我們勞工的那個比例現在是因為少子化勞工比例是往慢慢的往下的趨勢的話這個比例將來仍然可能會有這種現象因為他就業人數變少了謝謝他不是事業主計長\n734987\t756270\t人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比這是兩件事情勞工少但是我們要強調的是受僱人員就是說我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟同理所以剛才委員說很關心的我們要利用各種重分配的政策讓他能夠弱勢的人能夠得到更多的\n756630\t765200\t但是如果從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告還在搪塞找幾個理由來美化這些數字來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話那我覺得受僱人員永遠就是\n771787\t772607\t好 謝謝彥秀委員接著請郭國文委員質詢\n","txt":"主計長好快退休了我要讓你多講一點所以萬人愉快打了一條紅領帶來謝謝好\n我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活做一些自己想做的事情主計長你是北漂到台北來對不對你是北漂到台北來工作的對不對我58歲就在台北工作了我知道你在台南白河的竹門國小、國中\n國中、高中都在台南嘛,對不對?那你是大學之後才念政大,才睡戲,然後念研究所,然後就漂流在台北工作,對不對?所以你很幸運,也很努力工作8年之後,在台北市就買了一間房子嘛,對不對?\n沒有,我看看我是什麼時候買的我看到你的報稅的資料我自己都忘記了,謝謝委員提醒你自己有一個房子,72年沒一個房子你也很念舊,72年買的房子到現在還在\n當時買一瓶多少錢你還記得嗎一瓶大概十萬多塊在大安路現在舊房子都他們有人說要跟我出十萬塊所以要跟我出八十幾萬謝謝現在大概八十幾萬了當時買的時候你年輕的時候我跟賴委員主席是同樣的故鄉的都是努力向上的人謝謝\n當時你們那個年代年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢然後也有機會打造你的夢想完成你的夢想買一間房我沒有夢想我只是努力去兼課賺付貸款謝謝\n我們來看下一張主計長我要跟你討論其實並不是風花雪月因為我對於數字因為我大學念的也是經濟系所以對於數字其實我有一定的想法跟敏感度所以主計長我們昨天公布了整個家庭財富分配的狀況剛才你也回答賴委員家庭財富分配的統計狀況30年前跟30年後\n我們看到這個數據你有什麼感想為什麼突然在這兩三年你會想做這件事情因為我們有所得的調查有所得的分配所得的分配是一個流量但是我們的存量一直缺乏這個那我們跟像我跟\n那你看到這個數字的結果你的感想你的結論\n我的意思是說我們有努力的空間可是我們相對其他國家我們是比較平均的不過我必須跟委員報告在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意就像我剛才所講的我30多年前的房子是用一坪10萬塊買那個40幾坪是400多萬我現在住在裡面它都是值3000多萬可是我房子愈租愈舊所以我財富有400多萬\n財富的差距高達66.9倍\n這個66.9倍其實也凸顯出家庭的這個貧富差距其實上是非常高的那我也關注到我們的潘處長其實做這個普查其實也非常的辛苦但是潘處長昨天也講過說30年前不少南部的人北漂工作自產如果留在南部的話房地產啊發展區域不同財富就會有不同的差距他是不是拿你來當作model來講這個結論\n主席長\n那如果這樣講的話那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人沒有在台北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧囉不是這個意思啦個人的不一樣啊我的同學裡面甚至我學生裡面他們都比我有錢啊主計長我要講的是你從事公務人員吼無論你在哪個階段你這一輩子幾乎大多數的時間都是公務人員其實公務人員\n做財稅也好資源分配的合理性也好包括昭緯今天排這個法案也好其實去年費鴻泰昭緯也排過同樣的法案就是說我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位大家共同的責任不是說我有機會我選擇到台北來\n那我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想選擇他喜歡的工作選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境我們現在台灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長政府在說現在經濟很好但是大多數的\n現在還在工作從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的是無感的所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高委員的用心很好所以我們才要有財富分配而且每幾年要做一次不必每年做因為財富是一個存量存量在短期間不會變化很大謝謝\n所以主計長這個讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢我覺得是我們每一個人的責任賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合做夢、悠然過日子的地方但是以今天財富分配的狀況\n年輕人還能說有台灣夢嗎?說我們資源分配的狀況不合理性我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代86年、80年就可以買房子我覺得恐怕是很困難的這個是我今天看到最近你們做的這個數據報告、研究報告出來我的結論\n我同意委員的觀點所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考但是主計長未來這個決策參考剛才賴委員有講我覺得30年做一次是真的有點久我們不會展明應該合理的做一次啦然後剛才你回答這個賴氏寶委員說這個他們可能投資錯誤其實主計長你有機會退休之後到各個家庭平常家庭去看看\n不要說理財分配他們可能連理財根本沒有錢去做理財啦我要直接告訴你這件事情我跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才錄了一下有很多人繞入到最低的百分之五因為他是資產減掉負債他資產高也負債也高他負債高就是代表說你要去銀行借錢你沒有資產人家也不會借給你所以他就是什麼財務槓桿操作過度謝謝\n主席長財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的做法是完全不一樣財務槓桿沒錢人只能借錢去過生活沒有所謂來做財務槓桿的空間我要提醒你主席長我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題雖然時間剩下的有限但是\n我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說我們現在受僱人員的分配比較少的原因最主要是因為僱主或自營業的人呢占了15%這是經濟部的報告沒有納入沒有記錄這個營業盈餘所以我們受僱人員的報酬比有受影響國發會的報告也是如此但是主計處的報告就比較完整他說\n因為我們的僱主也好為領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值我們很難去區分他到底是來自於勞動或資本所以主計長你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告還是你覺得你的報告比較完整他的那個內容講的並沒有錯那我們只是說因為這個事是什麼很難區分所以在國際線的慣例都均\n但是主計長我覺得齁這個是一份報告各自解讀啦同樣的報告無論是今天的召委排了過去國民黨的召委費洪泰也排了可見我們對於受僱人員的薪資經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工\n朝野黨派的委員都對於這件事情是覺得非常嚴重也覺得值得重視的所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會在這件事情上就不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說這個是數字沒有計算很完整那你們拍拍屁股什麼都不做去年類似同樣專案報告排了一次今年又排一次\n但是如果在這個位置上你們有能力可以做決策可以做更好的支援分配或我們的企業轉型我們沒有做任何事情的話那我覺得臺灣的勞工也好受僱人員的這個永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利所以我在這邊我只叫主計長出來我覺得你的報告回答\n我認為比較遺憾的是如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把所謂的家裡的其他成員其他的僱主成員納入所謂的報酬的話那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在我們受僱人員分配過低的\n一個主要的原因更何況過去10年來我們受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年逐年降低你不要跟我拿過去其他的比例說我們過去長期我們臺灣的這個自僱的員工也好受僱的員工也好長期有這樣子的狀態那個結構長期都是如此但是我們在GDP占比受僱人員卻是過去10年來的新低\n主計長你同意我的說法我們跟自己比就知道了嘛我們勞工的那個比例現在是因為少子化勞工比例是往慢慢的往下的趨勢的話這個比例將來仍然可能會有這種現象因為他就業人數變少了謝謝他不是事業主計長\n人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比這是兩件事情勞工少但是我們要強調的是受僱人員就是說我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟同理所以剛才委員說很關心的我們要利用各種重分配的政策讓他能夠弱勢的人能夠得到更多的\n但是如果從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告還在搪塞找幾個理由來美化這些數字來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話那我覺得受僱人員永遠就是\n好 謝謝彥秀委員接著請郭國文委員質詢\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:02.254 --> 00:08.643\n主計長好快退休了我要讓你多講一點所以萬人愉快打了一條紅領帶來謝謝好\n\n00:11.547 --> 00:25.190\n我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活做一些自己想做的事情主計長你是北漂到台北來對不對你是北漂到台北來工作的對不對我58歲就在台北工作了我知道你在台南白河的竹門國小、國中\n\n00:36.153 --> 00:57.054\n國中、高中都在台南嘛,對不對?那你是大學之後才念政大,才睡戲,然後念研究所,然後就漂流在台北工作,對不對?所以你很幸運,也很努力工作8年之後,在台北市就買了一間房子嘛,對不對?\n\n00:58.135 --> 01:14.312\n沒有,我看看我是什麼時候買的我看到你的報稅的資料我自己都忘記了,謝謝委員提醒你自己有一個房子,72年沒一個房子你也很念舊,72年買的房子到現在還在\n\n01:16.995 --> 01:39.107\n當時買一瓶多少錢你還記得嗎一瓶大概十萬多塊在大安路現在舊房子都他們有人說要跟我出十萬塊所以要跟我出八十幾萬謝謝現在大概八十幾萬了當時買的時候你年輕的時候我跟賴委員主席是同樣的故鄉的都是努力向上的人謝謝\n\n01:41.028 --> 01:53.336\n當時你們那個年代年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢然後也有機會打造你的夢想完成你的夢想買一間房我沒有夢想我只是努力去兼課賺付貸款謝謝\n\n02:10.887 --> 02:36.093\n我們來看下一張主計長我要跟你討論其實並不是風花雪月因為我對於數字因為我大學念的也是經濟系所以對於數字其實我有一定的想法跟敏感度所以主計長我們昨天公布了整個家庭財富分配的狀況剛才你也回答賴委員家庭財富分配的統計狀況30年前跟30年後\n\n02:39.634 --> 02:53.522\n我們看到這個數據你有什麼感想為什麼突然在這兩三年你會想做這件事情因為我們有所得的調查有所得的分配所得的分配是一個流量但是我們的存量一直缺乏這個那我們跟像我跟\n\n02:56.403 --> 02:57.564\n那你看到這個數字的結果你的感想你的結論\n\n03:11.912 --> 03:38.232\n我的意思是說我們有努力的空間可是我們相對其他國家我們是比較平均的不過我必須跟委員報告在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意就像我剛才所講的我30多年前的房子是用一坪10萬塊買那個40幾坪是400多萬我現在住在裡面它都是值3000多萬可是我房子愈租愈舊所以我財富有400多萬\n\n03:39.213 --> 03:40.294\n財富的差距高達66.9倍\n\n04:05.970 --> 04:32.659\n這個66.9倍其實也凸顯出家庭的這個貧富差距其實上是非常高的那我也關注到我們的潘處長其實做這個普查其實也非常的辛苦但是潘處長昨天也講過說30年前不少南部的人北漂工作自產如果留在南部的話房地產啊發展區域不同財富就會有不同的差距他是不是拿你來當作model來講這個結論\n\n04:34.728 --> 04:34.928\n主席長\n\n05:02.702 --> 05:29.927\n那如果這樣講的話那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人沒有在台北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧囉不是這個意思啦個人的不一樣啊我的同學裡面甚至我學生裡面他們都比我有錢啊主計長我要講的是你從事公務人員吼無論你在哪個階段你這一輩子幾乎大多數的時間都是公務人員其實公務人員\n\n05:31.807 --> 05:52.162\n做財稅也好資源分配的合理性也好包括昭緯今天排這個法案也好其實去年費鴻泰昭緯也排過同樣的法案就是說我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位大家共同的責任不是說我有機會我選擇到台北來\n\n05:55.484 --> 06:13.293\n那我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想選擇他喜歡的工作選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境我們現在台灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長政府在說現在經濟很好但是大多數的\n\n06:14.473 --> 06:39.469\n現在還在工作從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的是無感的所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高委員的用心很好所以我們才要有財富分配而且每幾年要做一次不必每年做因為財富是一個存量存量在短期間不會變化很大謝謝\n\n06:40.620 --> 07:00.631\n所以主計長這個讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢我覺得是我們每一個人的責任賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合做夢、悠然過日子的地方但是以今天財富分配的狀況\n\n07:01.952 --> 07:11.697\n年輕人還能說有台灣夢嗎?說我們資源分配的狀況不合理性我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代86年、80年就可以買房子我覺得恐怕是很困難的這個是我今天看到最近你們做的這個數據報告、研究報告出來我的結論\n\n07:25.205 --> 07:53.361\n我同意委員的觀點所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考但是主計長未來這個決策參考剛才賴委員有講我覺得30年做一次是真的有點久我們不會展明應該合理的做一次啦然後剛才你回答這個賴氏寶委員說這個他們可能投資錯誤其實主計長你有機會退休之後到各個家庭平常家庭去看看\n\n07:54.341 --> 08:19.382\n不要說理財分配他們可能連理財根本沒有錢去做理財啦我要直接告訴你這件事情我跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才錄了一下有很多人繞入到最低的百分之五因為他是資產減掉負債他資產高也負債也高他負債高就是代表說你要去銀行借錢你沒有資產人家也不會借給你所以他就是什麼財務槓桿操作過度謝謝\n\n08:23.171 --> 08:31.896\n主席長財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的做法是完全不一樣財務槓桿沒錢人只能借錢去過生活沒有所謂來做財務槓桿的空間我要提醒你主席長我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題雖然時間剩下的有限但是\n\n08:46.544 --> 09:00.774\n我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說我們現在受僱人員的分配比較少的原因最主要是因為僱主或自營業的人呢占了15%這是經濟部的報告沒有納入沒有記錄這個營業盈餘所以我們受僱人員的報酬比有受影響國發會的報告也是如此但是主計處的報告就比較完整他說\n\n09:16.284 --> 09:44.526\n因為我們的僱主也好為領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值我們很難去區分他到底是來自於勞動或資本所以主計長你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告還是你覺得你的報告比較完整他的那個內容講的並沒有錯那我們只是說因為這個事是什麼很難區分所以在國際線的慣例都均\n\n09:44.926 --> 10:02.639\n但是主計長我覺得齁這個是一份報告各自解讀啦同樣的報告無論是今天的召委排了過去國民黨的召委費洪泰也排了可見我們對於受僱人員的薪資經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工\n\n10:03.820 --> 10:27.014\n朝野黨派的委員都對於這件事情是覺得非常嚴重也覺得值得重視的所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會在這件事情上就不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說這個是數字沒有計算很完整那你們拍拍屁股什麼都不做去年類似同樣專案報告排了一次今年又排一次\n\n10:27.754 --> 10:55.618\n但是如果在這個位置上你們有能力可以做決策可以做更好的支援分配或我們的企業轉型我們沒有做任何事情的話那我覺得臺灣的勞工也好受僱人員的這個永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利所以我在這邊我只叫主計長出來我覺得你的報告回答\n\n10:57.610 --> 11:22.345\n我認為比較遺憾的是如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把所謂的家裡的其他成員其他的僱主成員納入所謂的報酬的話那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在我們受僱人員分配過低的\n\n11:23.246 --> 11:48.947\n一個主要的原因更何況過去10年來我們受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年逐年降低你不要跟我拿過去其他的比例說我們過去長期我們臺灣的這個自僱的員工也好受僱的員工也好長期有這樣子的狀態那個結構長期都是如此但是我們在GDP占比受僱人員卻是過去10年來的新低\n\n11:50.168 --> 12:12.645\n主計長你同意我的說法我們跟自己比就知道了嘛我們勞工的那個比例現在是因為少子化勞工比例是往慢慢的往下的趨勢的話這個比例將來仍然可能會有這種現象因為他就業人數變少了謝謝他不是事業主計長\n\n12:14.987 --> 12:36.270\n人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比這是兩件事情勞工少但是我們要強調的是受僱人員就是說我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟同理所以剛才委員說很關心的我們要利用各種重分配的政策讓他能夠弱勢的人能夠得到更多的\n\n12:36.630 --> 12:45.200\n但是如果從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告還在搪塞找幾個理由來美化這些數字來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話那我覺得受僱人員永遠就是\n\n12:51.787 --> 12:52.607\n好謝謝彥秀委員接著請郭國文委員質詢\n\n","segments":[{"start":2.254,"end":8.643,"text":"主計長好快退休了我要讓你多講一點所以萬人愉快打了一條紅領帶來謝謝好"},{"start":11.547,"end":25.19,"text":"我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活做一些自己想做的事情主計長你是北漂到台北來對不對你是北漂到台北來工作的對不對我58歲就在台北工作了我知道你在台南白河的竹門國小、國中"},{"start":36.153,"end":57.054,"text":"國中、高中都在台南嘛,對不對?那你是大學之後才念政大,才睡戲,然後念研究所,然後就漂流在台北工作,對不對?所以你很幸運,也很努力工作8年之後,在台北市就買了一間房子嘛,對不對?"},{"start":58.135,"end":74.312,"text":"沒有,我看看我是什麼時候買的我看到你的報稅的資料我自己都忘記了,謝謝委員提醒你自己有一個房子,72年沒一個房子你也很念舊,72年買的房子到現在還在"},{"start":76.995,"end":99.107,"text":"當時買一瓶多少錢你還記得嗎一瓶大概十萬多塊在大安路現在舊房子都他們有人說要跟我出十萬塊所以要跟我出八十幾萬謝謝現在大概八十幾萬了當時買的時候你年輕的時候我跟賴委員主席是同樣的故鄉的都是努力向上的人謝謝"},{"start":101.028,"end":113.336,"text":"當時你們那個年代年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢然後也有機會打造你的夢想完成你的夢想買一間房我沒有夢想我只是努力去兼課賺付貸款謝謝"},{"start":130.887,"end":156.093,"text":"我們來看下一張主計長我要跟你討論其實並不是風花雪月因為我對於數字因為我大學念的也是經濟系所以對於數字其實我有一定的想法跟敏感度所以主計長我們昨天公布了整個家庭財富分配的狀況剛才你也回答賴委員家庭財富分配的統計狀況30年前跟30年後"},{"start":159.634,"end":173.522,"text":"我們看到這個數據你有什麼感想為什麼突然在這兩三年你會想做這件事情因為我們有所得的調查有所得的分配所得的分配是一個流量但是我們的存量一直缺乏這個那我們跟像我跟"},{"start":176.403,"end":177.564,"text":"那你看到這個數字的結果你的感想你的結論"},{"start":191.912,"end":218.232,"text":"我的意思是說我們有努力的空間可是我們相對其他國家我們是比較平均的不過我必須跟委員報告在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意就像我剛才所講的我30多年前的房子是用一坪10萬塊買那個40幾坪是400多萬我現在住在裡面它都是值3000多萬可是我房子愈租愈舊所以我財富有400多萬"},{"start":219.213,"end":220.294,"text":"財富的差距高達66.9倍"},{"start":245.97,"end":272.659,"text":"這個66.9倍其實也凸顯出家庭的這個貧富差距其實上是非常高的那我也關注到我們的潘處長其實做這個普查其實也非常的辛苦但是潘處長昨天也講過說30年前不少南部的人北漂工作自產如果留在南部的話房地產啊發展區域不同財富就會有不同的差距他是不是拿你來當作model來講這個結論"},{"start":274.728,"end":274.928,"text":"主席長"},{"start":302.702,"end":329.927,"text":"那如果這樣講的話那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人沒有在台北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧囉不是這個意思啦個人的不一樣啊我的同學裡面甚至我學生裡面他們都比我有錢啊主計長我要講的是你從事公務人員吼無論你在哪個階段你這一輩子幾乎大多數的時間都是公務人員其實公務人員"},{"start":331.807,"end":352.162,"text":"做財稅也好資源分配的合理性也好包括昭緯今天排這個法案也好其實去年費鴻泰昭緯也排過同樣的法案就是說我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位大家共同的責任不是說我有機會我選擇到台北來"},{"start":355.484,"end":373.293,"text":"那我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想選擇他喜歡的工作選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境我們現在台灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長政府在說現在經濟很好但是大多數的"},{"start":374.473,"end":399.469,"text":"現在還在工作從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的是無感的所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高委員的用心很好所以我們才要有財富分配而且每幾年要做一次不必每年做因為財富是一個存量存量在短期間不會變化很大謝謝"},{"start":400.62,"end":420.631,"text":"所以主計長這個讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢我覺得是我們每一個人的責任賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合做夢、悠然過日子的地方但是以今天財富分配的狀況"},{"start":421.952,"end":431.697,"text":"年輕人還能說有台灣夢嗎?說我們資源分配的狀況不合理性我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代86年、80年就可以買房子我覺得恐怕是很困難的這個是我今天看到最近你們做的這個數據報告、研究報告出來我的結論"},{"start":445.205,"end":473.361,"text":"我同意委員的觀點所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考但是主計長未來這個決策參考剛才賴委員有講我覺得30年做一次是真的有點久我們不會展明應該合理的做一次啦然後剛才你回答這個賴氏寶委員說這個他們可能投資錯誤其實主計長你有機會退休之後到各個家庭平常家庭去看看"},{"start":474.341,"end":499.382,"text":"不要說理財分配他們可能連理財根本沒有錢去做理財啦我要直接告訴你這件事情我跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才錄了一下有很多人繞入到最低的百分之五因為他是資產減掉負債他資產高也負債也高他負債高就是代表說你要去銀行借錢你沒有資產人家也不會借給你所以他就是什麼財務槓桿操作過度謝謝"},{"start":503.171,"end":511.896,"text":"主席長財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的做法是完全不一樣財務槓桿沒錢人只能借錢去過生活沒有所謂來做財務槓桿的空間我要提醒你主席長我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題雖然時間剩下的有限但是"},{"start":526.544,"end":540.774,"text":"我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說我們現在受僱人員的分配比較少的原因最主要是因為僱主或自營業的人呢占了15%這是經濟部的報告沒有納入沒有記錄這個營業盈餘所以我們受僱人員的報酬比有受影響國發會的報告也是如此但是主計處的報告就比較完整他說"},{"start":556.284,"end":584.526,"text":"因為我們的僱主也好為領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值我們很難去區分他到底是來自於勞動或資本所以主計長你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告還是你覺得你的報告比較完整他的那個內容講的並沒有錯那我們只是說因為這個事是什麼很難區分所以在國際線的慣例都均"},{"start":584.926,"end":602.639,"text":"但是主計長我覺得齁這個是一份報告各自解讀啦同樣的報告無論是今天的召委排了過去國民黨的召委費洪泰也排了可見我們對於受僱人員的薪資經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工"},{"start":603.82,"end":627.014,"text":"朝野黨派的委員都對於這件事情是覺得非常嚴重也覺得值得重視的所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會在這件事情上就不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說這個是數字沒有計算很完整那你們拍拍屁股什麼都不做去年類似同樣專案報告排了一次今年又排一次"},{"start":627.754,"end":655.618,"text":"但是如果在這個位置上你們有能力可以做決策可以做更好的支援分配或我們的企業轉型我們沒有做任何事情的話那我覺得臺灣的勞工也好受僱人員的這個永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利所以我在這邊我只叫主計長出來我覺得你的報告回答"},{"start":657.61,"end":682.345,"text":"我認為比較遺憾的是如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把所謂的家裡的其他成員其他的僱主成員納入所謂的報酬的話那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在我們受僱人員分配過低的"},{"start":683.246,"end":708.947,"text":"一個主要的原因更何況過去10年來我們受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年逐年降低你不要跟我拿過去其他的比例說我們過去長期我們臺灣的這個自僱的員工也好受僱的員工也好長期有這樣子的狀態那個結構長期都是如此但是我們在GDP占比受僱人員卻是過去10年來的新低"},{"start":710.168,"end":732.645,"text":"主計長你同意我的說法我們跟自己比就知道了嘛我們勞工的那個比例現在是因為少子化勞工比例是往慢慢的往下的趨勢的話這個比例將來仍然可能會有這種現象因為他就業人數變少了謝謝他不是事業主計長"},{"start":734.987,"end":756.27,"text":"人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比這是兩件事情勞工少但是我們要強調的是受僱人員就是說我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟同理所以剛才委員說很關心的我們要利用各種重分配的政策讓他能夠弱勢的人能夠得到更多的"},{"start":756.63,"end":765.2,"text":"但是如果從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告還在搪塞找幾個理由來美化這些數字來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話那我覺得受僱人員永遠就是"},{"start":771.787,"end":772.607,"text":"好 謝謝彥秀委員接著請郭國文委員質詢"}]}}}}