{"id":151961,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151961","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b7adfb1d3cb6d060d1853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119194999303e8e406dd25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:30:10 - 11:37:53","影片長度":"00:07:43","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":463,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:37:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:30:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時30分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任。"],["主席：請蔡局長、林主任。"],["蔡局長明彥：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩位好。我想我不會跟前面的委員一樣，一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談，但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施、軍事設施或要塞堡壘地帶之外，有很多是我們的基礎設施，但它的關鍵是隱而不察，希望你們要注意。","首先，上個月美國有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊設備的報導，因為美國港口橋式起重機，就是在吊貨櫃的，有八成是中國製，部分安裝了可疑通訊設備，結果美方透過港口及執法部門瞭解，來自中國的振華重工多次要求遠端存取位在美國的起重機以及其他海事基礎設施，請問局長，你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，事實上這個不只是委員現在所提到的今年3月份的報導，去年就發生過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就發生了？"],["蔡局長明彥：當時我們有請航港局做一個全面的徹查，已經全面徹查過了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們認為臺灣的港口起重機有沒有同樣的國安或資安疑慮？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，在我們通報航港局之後，航港局做了全面的徹查，徹查之後是沒有，因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國機具。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我請你再想想看，你所謂的相關主管機關，包括數發部、經濟部商檢局，對不對？我告訴你，這裡的潛在危機在哪裡？我們的固定支架的架空移動起重機，俗稱吊貨櫃的，來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的，過去幾年大幅增加，其中以中國的成長最多，有沒有看到？"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，這些都分布在臺灣的重要港埠啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：但我們剛剛講的重點是，美方發現比較有資安疑慮的那些起重機，是具有遠端遙控功能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我瞭解，但是你們是委請其他部門去查嘛！我這邊有資訊告訴我們是誰會知道，我再慢慢講……"],["蔡局長明彥：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：移動式起重機具，大都來自德國、日本跟中國，過去以德國為大宗，但這些國家逐年遞減，包括日本也在遞減，但中國卻大幅成長，你覺得為什麼？因為中國是世界工廠，他們大量的生產這些製造機具，包括工具母機等等，為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題？因為中國製的起重機具付錢就能取得第三方認證，我們都要求要認證，你請那些機關去幫你查驗，他們也是看認證，但是中國取得的第三方認證資料，通常美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國都不採納，那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到臺灣，他所出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎？有沒有去查過？這些認證，在剛才提到的這4個國家是不採納的，但在臺灣採不採納？是不是請局長去瞭解一下？"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來我再告訴你，這個中國製的起重機具的製造商，本身就是中國人大代表，進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國嗎？進口商當然知道，因為他就是跟中國進貨的，但是進到臺灣之後，購買的廠商、施工的單位知道嗎？軍方的設備或港埠設備開了標，他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎？你認為他知不知道？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，這個部分剛剛我們同仁有跟我講比較詳細的資訊，也就是在清查過程當中，一些相關廠商涉入的狀況，也都有進行一些瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我直接問你，過去我們曾經發生過遊覽巴士帶學生校外教學出了狀況，或者旅遊巴士出了狀況，交通部就要求通通要在車體上標示清楚，請問你，是否贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上，要合格的標明機具的產地？你贊不贊成？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們會看主管機關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你贊不贊成？我是問你嘛，對你有沒有幫助？"],["蔡局長明彥：這是政府部門大家的分工，要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你覺得呢？你個人認為這樣標示出來，有沒有幫助？"],["蔡局長明彥：這樣建議背後的考量可以理解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：包括要有中、英文字體標示出來，對不對？好，後續還有。中國製的起重機可不可以遠端監控跟操作，其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚，甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太瞭解，為什麼？因為很多機能沒有被開啟，但是它的後門可以遠端開啟，我進來的設備不需要這個功能，為什麼要跟你講這個事情呢？因為在我們的工廠裡面，有些機具當發生工安事件的時候要立刻停機，操作人被捲進去了，遠端馬上一個shut down就停了，遠端操控在機具安全上是有這個裝置能力的，很多大型機具為了工作安全，在勞動部勞檢、安檢的時候，他們都要求要具備這樣的能力，具備這樣能力的機具既然可以遠端中止，表示它可以有傳輸的設備，你同不同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，對於委員這樣的提醒，我想我們會把這樣的資訊讓業管單位更進一步的瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們不要說你們澈查過了，只要這些機具本身具有一定的工作安全危害性，通常就要加入一些防呆、中止的措施，防止造成傷害，這些都具備有遠端控制的功能，所以為了保障資訊安全，國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作你支持嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們再請行政院相關單位針對這個部分再做進一步的檢查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情，包括主席也知道，依據全民防衛動員準備法第十六條，在動員階段可以徵調民間的各種物資設施，你知道我們有哪些機具設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的？起重機要不要？板車要不要？怪手要不要？這些機具很多都不是臺灣生產的喔！所以在戰時徵用的中國製機具或設備，是否可能有國家安全的疑慮？舉例來講，對於反空降的作為，所有的單臂式高舉起重機，它在軍方徵用的時候，會在反空降的地點升起來，防止敵軍空降傘兵，有沒有？有這樣的作用嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們會把這些大型起重機迅速集中，作為立即反空降的一個作為，如果這些機具不舉呢？遠端控制不舉呢？發動不了呢？有沒有這個安全疑慮？你同不同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：同意，同意委員的推論，要注意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們要求兩件事情，請研議對國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作，以確保資訊安全的可行性，一個月內提出書面報告可以嗎？這應該是國土辦的事情，對不起，應該要問主任，這是國土辦的事情。"],["林主任傑：我們會召集各單位來瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那也請研議戰時徵用機具的設備規範，排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片，保障國家安全，可不可以？請你們瞭解現在的設備很多都有晶片，晶片都有傳輸能力，進一步去瞭解可以嗎？"],["林主任傑：是，我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝兩位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"151961","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151961","tool":"pyannote","id":"151961-pyannote"},"job_id":"S6Iglt82vQn4jgAH","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"score\": 0.832}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"主\", \"start\": 460.962, \"end\": 461.362, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 461.362, \"end\": 461.462, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 461.462, \"end\": 461.482, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,666 --> 00:00:12,964\n主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任請蔡局長、林主任好,眾委好\n\n2\n00:00:17,731 --> 00:00:43,579\n兩位好我想我不會跟前面的委員一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施之外或者軍事設施之外或要塞堡壘地帶之外有很多是我們的基礎設施但它的關鍵隱而不查希望你們要注意首先這是一個在上個月前有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊裝備是美國的\n\n3\n00:00:45,239 --> 00:01:07,707\n港口有橋式起重機在吊貨櫃的,八成是中國製的,他在部分的安裝了可疑的通訊設備。那結果呢,美方透過港口經濟法部門,瞭解來自中國的振華重工,多次的要求遠端存取他們位在美國的起重機,以及其他海式的基礎設施。請問,局長你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎?\n\n4\n00:01:08,618 --> 00:01:23,394\n有,事實上這個不只是在委員現在所提到報導是今年3月份,去年就發生了然後當時已經請港港局做一個全面的徹查,已經全面徹查過所以你們認為台灣的港口集中機有沒有同樣的可能的疑慮,國安會這樣的疑慮?\n\n5\n00:01:24,595 --> 00:01:41,344\n對,在我們通報航港局之後,航港局做了全面的徹查,徹查完之後是沒有,因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國的基礎。這個我請你再想想看,因為你所謂的相關主管包括速發部,對不對,包括經濟部、商業局,來我們告訴你,這裡的錢在維新哪裡?\n\n6\n00:01:43,985 --> 00:02:11,076\n固定之下的架空移動起重機俗稱的吊貨櫃的來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的在過去幾年大幅的增加其中以中國的成長最多有沒有看到有有這些都分布在台灣的重要港部啊但我們剛剛在講的重點是美方他發現比較有資安疑慮的是那些起重機他具有遠端遙控我了解但是你本身你們有人你們是委請其他部門嘛\n\n7\n00:02:11,876 --> 00:02:39,969\n我這邊有資訊有告訴我們是誰會知道我再慢慢講移動式的起重機這些我們看到來自德國日本跟中國過去德國為大宗但是這些國家逐年在遞減包括日本在遞減中國呢卻大幅的成長你覺得為什麼因為中國是世界工廠啊他們大量的生產這些製造機具包括工具母機啊但是為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題來因為往下看\n\n8\n00:02:40,834 --> 00:03:06,568\n因為中國製的起重機具他用的是付錢就能取得的認證我們都要求他認證你請那些機關去幫你看他也是看認證他取得的第三方認證資料通常在美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國他都不採納那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到我們台灣他的出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎有沒有去查過\n\n9\n00:03:08,682 --> 00:03:36,129\n這些認證在這四個國家是不採納的但是在台灣才不採納是不是請局長去了解一下好再接下來我再告訴你這個中國的制的起重機具的製造商本身就是中國人大的代表啊進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國的進口商當然知道嘛他就跟他進嘛但是進到台灣來之後購買的廠商施工的單位知道嗎\n\n10\n00:03:38,014 --> 00:03:48,565\n軍方的設備或港部的設備他開了標他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎?你認為他知不知道?\n\n11\n00:03:53,512 --> 00:04:17,009\n這個部分我們剛剛同學在跟我講比較詳細的資訊也就是說在清查過程當中一些相關廠商的涉入的狀況也都有進行一些了解那我今天請問你我們過去曾經發生過學校的遊覽巴士在學生區校外教學的出了狀況或者說旅遊巴士交通不要求通通要標示在車體上要標示我請問你\n\n12\n00:04:18,010 --> 00:04:24,907\n你自我贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上要合格上標明基礎的產地你贊不贊成\n\n13\n00:04:25,765 --> 00:04:49,753\n你站不站只要是問你嘛,對有沒有幫助這是政府部門大家的分工,要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼那你覺得呢,你個人認為這樣標示出來有沒有幫助這樣的建議的背後的考量可以理解包括要中英文的字體標示出來對不對,好,後續還有中國市的行政區可不可以遠端的監控跟操作,其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚\n\n14\n00:04:50,473 --> 00:05:13,506\n甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太了解為什麼因為很多的機能啊他沒有被開啟但是他的後門可以遠端開啟啊我進來的設備不需要這個功能為什麼跟你講這個事情呢因為在我們的工廠裡面啊有些機具當發生公安事件的時候要立刻停機操作人被捲進去了遠端馬上一個shutdown就停了\n\n15\n00:05:36,119 --> 00:05:48,508\n所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆\n\n16\n00:05:49,989 --> 00:06:10,727\n那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情主席也知道全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施\n\n17\n00:06:16,112 --> 00:06:21,360\n你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要?\n\n18\n00:06:24,366 --> 00:06:46,868\n外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有\n\n19\n00:06:47,549 --> 00:07:15,109\n有這樣的作用嗎?對不對?我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢?遠端控制不舉呢?發動不了呢?有沒有這個安全疑慮?同不同意?同意啊,同意委員的推論好,所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行性一個月提出文明報告,可以嗎?\n\n20\n00:07:16,326 --> 00:07:41,482\n這是應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴硬的暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n666\t12964\t主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任請蔡局長、林主任好,眾委好\n17731\t43579\t兩位好我想我不會跟前面的委員一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施之外或者軍事設施之外或要塞堡壘地帶之外有很多是我們的基礎設施但它的關鍵隱而不查希望你們要注意首先這是一個在上個月前有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊裝備是美國的\n45239\t67707\t港口有橋式起重機在吊貨櫃的,八成是中國製的,他在部分的安裝了可疑的通訊設備。那結果呢,美方透過港口經濟法部門,瞭解來自中國的振華重工,多次的要求遠端存取他們位在美國的起重機,以及其他海式的基礎設施。請問,局長你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎?\n68618\t83394\t有,事實上這個不只是在委員現在所提到報導是今年3月份,去年就發生了然後當時已經請港港局做一個全面的徹查,已經全面徹查過所以你們認為台灣的港口集中機有沒有同樣的可能的疑慮,國安會這樣的疑慮?\n84595\t101344\t對,在我們通報航港局之後,航港局做了全面的徹查,徹查完之後是沒有,因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國的基礎。這個我請你再想想看,因為你所謂的相關主管包括速發部,對不對,包括經濟部、商業局,來我們告訴你,這裡的錢在維新哪裡?\n103985\t131076\t固定之下的架空移動起重機俗稱的吊貨櫃的來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的在過去幾年大幅的增加其中以中國的成長最多有沒有看到有有這些都分布在台灣的重要港部啊但我們剛剛在講的重點是美方他發現比較有資安疑慮的是那些起重機他具有遠端遙控我了解但是你本身你們有人你們是委請其他部門嘛\n131876\t159969\t我這邊有資訊有告訴我們是誰會知道我再慢慢講移動式的起重機這些我們看到來自德國日本跟中國過去德國為大宗但是這些國家逐年在遞減包括日本在遞減中國呢卻大幅的成長你覺得為什麼因為中國是世界工廠啊他們大量的生產這些製造機具包括工具母機啊但是為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題來因為往下看\n160834\t186568\t因為中國製的起重機具他用的是付錢就能取得的認證我們都要求他認證你請那些機關去幫你看他也是看認證他取得的第三方認證資料通常在美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國他都不採納那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到我們台灣他的出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎有沒有去查過\n188682\t216129\t這些認證在這四個國家是不採納的但是在台灣才不採納是不是請局長去了解一下好再接下來我再告訴你這個中國的制的起重機具的製造商本身就是中國人大的代表啊進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國的進口商當然知道嘛他就跟他進嘛但是進到台灣來之後購買的廠商施工的單位知道嗎\n218014\t228565\t軍方的設備或港部的設備他開了標他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎?你認為他知不知道?\n233512\t257009\t這個部分我們剛剛同學在跟我講比較詳細的資訊也就是說在清查過程當中一些相關廠商的涉入的狀況也都有進行一些了解那我今天請問你我們過去曾經發生過學校的遊覽巴士在學生區校外教學的出了狀況或者說旅遊巴士交通不要求通通要標示在車體上要標示我請問你\n258010\t264907\t你自我贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上要合格上標明基礎的產地你贊不贊成\n265765\t289753\t你站不站只要是問你嘛,對有沒有幫助這是政府部門大家的分工,要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼那你覺得呢,你個人認為這樣標示出來有沒有幫助這樣的建議的背後的考量可以理解包括要中英文的字體標示出來對不對,好,後續還有中國市的行政區可不可以遠端的監控跟操作,其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚\n290473\t313506\t甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太了解為什麼因為很多的機能啊他沒有被開啟但是他的後門可以遠端開啟啊我進來的設備不需要這個功能為什麼跟你講這個事情呢因為在我們的工廠裡面啊有些機具當發生公安事件的時候要立刻停機操作人被捲進去了遠端馬上一個shut down就停了\n314206\t331596\t對﹖\n336119\t348508\t所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆\n349989\t370727\t那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情主席也知道全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施\n376112\t381360\t你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要?\n384366\t406868\t外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有\n407549\t435109\t有這樣的作用嗎?對不對?我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢?遠端控制不舉呢?發動不了呢?有沒有這個安全疑慮?同不同意?同意啊,同意委員的推論好,所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行性一個月提出文明報告,可以嗎?\n436326\t461482\t這是應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴硬的暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝\n","txt":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任請蔡局長、林主任好,眾委好\n兩位好我想我不會跟前面的委員一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施之外或者軍事設施之外或要塞堡壘地帶之外有很多是我們的基礎設施但它的關鍵隱而不查希望你們要注意首先這是一個在上個月前有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊裝備是美國的\n港口有橋式起重機在吊貨櫃的,八成是中國製的,他在部分的安裝了可疑的通訊設備。那結果呢,美方透過港口經濟法部門,瞭解來自中國的振華重工,多次的要求遠端存取他們位在美國的起重機,以及其他海式的基礎設施。請問,局長你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎?\n有,事實上這個不只是在委員現在所提到報導是今年3月份,去年就發生了然後當時已經請港港局做一個全面的徹查,已經全面徹查過所以你們認為台灣的港口集中機有沒有同樣的可能的疑慮,國安會這樣的疑慮?\n對,在我們通報航港局之後,航港局做了全面的徹查,徹查完之後是沒有,因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國的基礎。這個我請你再想想看,因為你所謂的相關主管包括速發部,對不對,包括經濟部、商業局,來我們告訴你,這裡的錢在維新哪裡?\n固定之下的架空移動起重機俗稱的吊貨櫃的來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的在過去幾年大幅的增加其中以中國的成長最多有沒有看到有有這些都分布在台灣的重要港部啊但我們剛剛在講的重點是美方他發現比較有資安疑慮的是那些起重機他具有遠端遙控我了解但是你本身你們有人你們是委請其他部門嘛\n我這邊有資訊有告訴我們是誰會知道我再慢慢講移動式的起重機這些我們看到來自德國日本跟中國過去德國為大宗但是這些國家逐年在遞減包括日本在遞減中國呢卻大幅的成長你覺得為什麼因為中國是世界工廠啊他們大量的生產這些製造機具包括工具母機啊但是為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題來因為往下看\n因為中國製的起重機具他用的是付錢就能取得的認證我們都要求他認證你請那些機關去幫你看他也是看認證他取得的第三方認證資料通常在美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國他都不採納那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到我們台灣他的出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎有沒有去查過\n這些認證在這四個國家是不採納的但是在台灣才不採納是不是請局長去了解一下好再接下來我再告訴你這個中國的制的起重機具的製造商本身就是中國人大的代表啊進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國的進口商當然知道嘛他就跟他進嘛但是進到台灣來之後購買的廠商施工的單位知道嗎\n軍方的設備或港部的設備他開了標他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎?你認為他知不知道?\n這個部分我們剛剛同學在跟我講比較詳細的資訊也就是說在清查過程當中一些相關廠商的涉入的狀況也都有進行一些了解那我今天請問你我們過去曾經發生過學校的遊覽巴士在學生區校外教學的出了狀況或者說旅遊巴士交通不要求通通要標示在車體上要標示我請問你\n你自我贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上要合格上標明基礎的產地你贊不贊成\n你站不站只要是問你嘛,對有沒有幫助這是政府部門大家的分工,要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼那你覺得呢,你個人認為這樣標示出來有沒有幫助這樣的建議的背後的考量可以理解包括要中英文的字體標示出來對不對,好,後續還有中國市的行政區可不可以遠端的監控跟操作,其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚\n甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太了解為什麼因為很多的機能啊他沒有被開啟但是他的後門可以遠端開啟啊我進來的設備不需要這個功能為什麼跟你講這個事情呢因為在我們的工廠裡面啊有些機具當發生公安事件的時候要立刻停機操作人被捲進去了遠端馬上一個shut down就停了\n對﹖\n所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆\n那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情主席也知道全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施\n你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要?\n外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有\n有這樣的作用嗎?對不對?我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢?遠端控制不舉呢?發動不了呢?有沒有這個安全疑慮?同不同意?同意啊,同意委員的推論好,所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行性一個月提出文明報告,可以嗎?\n這是應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴硬的暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.666 --> 00:12.964\n主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任請蔡局長、林主任好,眾委好\n\n00:17.731 --> 00:43.579\n兩位好我想我不會跟前面的委員一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施之外或者軍事設施之外或要塞堡壘地帶之外有很多是我們的基礎設施但它的關鍵隱而不查希望你們要注意首先這是一個在上個月前有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊裝備是美國的\n\n00:45.239 --> 01:07.707\n港口有橋式起重機在吊貨櫃的,八成是中國製的,他在部分的安裝了可疑的通訊設備。那結果呢,美方透過港口經濟法部門,瞭解來自中國的振華重工,多次的要求遠端存取他們位在美國的起重機,以及其他海式的基礎設施。請問,局長你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎?\n\n01:08.618 --> 01:23.394\n有,事實上這個不只是在委員現在所提到報導是今年3月份,去年就發生了然後當時已經請港港局做一個全面的徹查,已經全面徹查過所以你們認為台灣的港口集中機有沒有同樣的可能的疑慮,國安會這樣的疑慮?\n\n01:24.595 --> 01:41.344\n對,在我們通報航港局之後,航港局做了全面的徹查,徹查完之後是沒有,因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國的基礎。這個我請你再想想看,因為你所謂的相關主管包括速發部,對不對,包括經濟部、商業局,來我們告訴你,這裡的錢在維新哪裡?\n\n01:43.985 --> 02:11.076\n固定之下的架空移動起重機俗稱的吊貨櫃的來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的在過去幾年大幅的增加其中以中國的成長最多有沒有看到有有這些都分布在台灣的重要港部啊但我們剛剛在講的重點是美方他發現比較有資安疑慮的是那些起重機他具有遠端遙控我了解但是你本身你們有人你們是委請其他部門嘛\n\n02:11.876 --> 02:39.969\n我這邊有資訊有告訴我們是誰會知道我再慢慢講移動式的起重機這些我們看到來自德國日本跟中國過去德國為大宗但是這些國家逐年在遞減包括日本在遞減中國呢卻大幅的成長你覺得為什麼因為中國是世界工廠啊他們大量的生產這些製造機具包括工具母機啊但是為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題來因為往下看\n\n02:40.834 --> 03:06.568\n因為中國製的起重機具他用的是付錢就能取得的認證我們都要求他認證你請那些機關去幫你看他也是看認證他取得的第三方認證資料通常在美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國他都不採納那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到我們台灣他的出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎有沒有去查過\n\n03:08.682 --> 03:36.129\n這些認證在這四個國家是不採納的但是在台灣才不採納是不是請局長去了解一下好再接下來我再告訴你這個中國的制的起重機具的製造商本身就是中國人大的代表啊進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國的進口商當然知道嘛他就跟他進嘛但是進到台灣來之後購買的廠商施工的單位知道嗎\n\n03:38.014 --> 03:48.565\n軍方的設備或港部的設備他開了標他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎?你認為他知不知道?\n\n03:53.512 --> 04:17.009\n這個部分我們剛剛同學在跟我講比較詳細的資訊也就是說在清查過程當中一些相關廠商的涉入的狀況也都有進行一些了解那我今天請問你我們過去曾經發生過學校的遊覽巴士在學生區校外教學的出了狀況或者說旅遊巴士交通不要求通通要標示在車體上要標示我請問你\n\n04:18.010 --> 04:24.907\n你自我贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上要合格上標明基礎的產地你贊不贊成\n\n04:25.765 --> 04:49.753\n你站不站只要是問你嘛,對有沒有幫助這是政府部門大家的分工,要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼那你覺得呢,你個人認為這樣標示出來有沒有幫助這樣的建議的背後的考量可以理解包括要中英文的字體標示出來對不對,好,後續還有中國市的行政區可不可以遠端的監控跟操作,其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚\n\n04:50.473 --> 05:13.506\n甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太了解為什麼因為很多的機能啊他沒有被開啟但是他的後門可以遠端開啟啊我進來的設備不需要這個功能為什麼跟你講這個事情呢因為在我們的工廠裡面啊有些機具當發生公安事件的時候要立刻停機操作人被捲進去了遠端馬上一個shutdown就停了\n\n05:36.119 --> 05:48.508\n所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆\n\n05:49.989 --> 06:10.727\n那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情主席也知道全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施\n\n06:16.112 --> 06:21.360\n你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要?\n\n06:24.366 --> 06:46.868\n外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有\n\n06:47.549 --> 07:15.109\n有這樣的作用嗎?對不對?我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢?遠端控制不舉呢?發動不了呢?有沒有這個安全疑慮?同不同意?同意啊,同意委員的推論好,所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行性一個月提出文明報告,可以嗎?\n\n07:16.326 --> 07:41.482\n這是應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴硬的暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.666,"end":12.964,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任請蔡局長、林主任好,眾委好"},{"start":17.731,"end":43.579,"text":"兩位好我想我不會跟前面的委員一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施之外或者軍事設施之外或要塞堡壘地帶之外有很多是我們的基礎設施但它的關鍵隱而不查希望你們要注意首先這是一個在上個月前有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊裝備是美國的"},{"start":45.239,"end":67.707,"text":"港口有橋式起重機在吊貨櫃的,八成是中國製的,他在部分的安裝了可疑的通訊設備。那結果呢,美方透過港口經濟法部門,瞭解來自中國的振華重工,多次的要求遠端存取他們位在美國的起重機,以及其他海式的基礎設施。請問,局長你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎?"},{"start":68.618,"end":83.394,"text":"有,事實上這個不只是在委員現在所提到報導是今年3月份,去年就發生了然後當時已經請港港局做一個全面的徹查,已經全面徹查過所以你們認為台灣的港口集中機有沒有同樣的可能的疑慮,國安會這樣的疑慮?"},{"start":84.595,"end":101.344,"text":"對,在我們通報航港局之後,航港局做了全面的徹查,徹查完之後是沒有,因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國的基礎。這個我請你再想想看,因為你所謂的相關主管包括速發部,對不對,包括經濟部、商業局,來我們告訴你,這裡的錢在維新哪裡?"},{"start":103.985,"end":131.076,"text":"固定之下的架空移動起重機俗稱的吊貨櫃的來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的在過去幾年大幅的增加其中以中國的成長最多有沒有看到有有這些都分布在台灣的重要港部啊但我們剛剛在講的重點是美方他發現比較有資安疑慮的是那些起重機他具有遠端遙控我了解但是你本身你們有人你們是委請其他部門嘛"},{"start":131.876,"end":159.969,"text":"我這邊有資訊有告訴我們是誰會知道我再慢慢講移動式的起重機這些我們看到來自德國日本跟中國過去德國為大宗但是這些國家逐年在遞減包括日本在遞減中國呢卻大幅的成長你覺得為什麼因為中國是世界工廠啊他們大量的生產這些製造機具包括工具母機啊但是為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題來因為往下看"},{"start":160.834,"end":186.568,"text":"因為中國製的起重機具他用的是付錢就能取得的認證我們都要求他認證你請那些機關去幫你看他也是看認證他取得的第三方認證資料通常在美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國他都不採納那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到我們台灣他的出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎有沒有去查過"},{"start":188.682,"end":216.129,"text":"這些認證在這四個國家是不採納的但是在台灣才不採納是不是請局長去了解一下好再接下來我再告訴你這個中國的制的起重機具的製造商本身就是中國人大的代表啊進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國的進口商當然知道嘛他就跟他進嘛但是進到台灣來之後購買的廠商施工的單位知道嗎"},{"start":218.014,"end":228.565,"text":"軍方的設備或港部的設備他開了標他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎?你認為他知不知道?"},{"start":233.512,"end":257.009,"text":"這個部分我們剛剛同學在跟我講比較詳細的資訊也就是說在清查過程當中一些相關廠商的涉入的狀況也都有進行一些了解那我今天請問你我們過去曾經發生過學校的遊覽巴士在學生區校外教學的出了狀況或者說旅遊巴士交通不要求通通要標示在車體上要標示我請問你"},{"start":258.01,"end":264.907,"text":"你自我贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上要合格上標明基礎的產地你贊不贊成"},{"start":265.765,"end":289.753,"text":"你站不站只要是問你嘛,對有沒有幫助這是政府部門大家的分工,要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼那你覺得呢,你個人認為這樣標示出來有沒有幫助這樣的建議的背後的考量可以理解包括要中英文的字體標示出來對不對,好,後續還有中國市的行政區可不可以遠端的監控跟操作,其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚"},{"start":290.473,"end":313.506,"text":"甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太了解為什麼因為很多的機能啊他沒有被開啟但是他的後門可以遠端開啟啊我進來的設備不需要這個功能為什麼跟你講這個事情呢因為在我們的工廠裡面啊有些機具當發生公安事件的時候要立刻停機操作人被捲進去了遠端馬上一個shut down就停了"},{"start":314.206,"end":331.596,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":336.119,"end":348.508,"text":"所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆"},{"start":349.989,"end":370.727,"text":"那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情主席也知道全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施"},{"start":376.112,"end":381.36,"text":"你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要?"},{"start":384.366,"end":406.868,"text":"外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有"},{"start":407.549,"end":435.109,"text":"有這樣的作用嗎?對不對?我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢?遠端控制不舉呢?發動不了呢?有沒有這個安全疑慮?同不同意?同意啊,同意委員的推論好,所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行性一個月提出文明報告,可以嗎?"},{"start":436.326,"end":461.482,"text":"這是應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴硬的暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝"}]}}}}