{"id":152018,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db14d033d8333bd8456d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717aa242417b77be3175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"09:45:31 - 09:56:36","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":665,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:56:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:45:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（9時45分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。兩個禮拜前，社環委員會有到彰化去考察，去看兒科也去偏鄉看地區醫院，我想請教部長，今天我們針對全民健康保險法修正草案要做一個討論，當然委員會在下個禮拜會辦公聽會，廣聽地方的意見。因為修法攸關所有的醫療界，還有全民的權益，所以我們希望能夠廣聽地方的意見以及所有學者專家的意見，我想請教部長，因為我們一直認為我們的點值如果低於一元的話，也就是每一點低於一元的時候，如果是由政府的公務預算來補足一元的話，我可以請教部長的意見嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上在剛剛口頭報告的時候，我已經提到過了，因為如果一點一元、補到這樣程度的話，我們大概一年公務預算就要用掉一千一百多億，這只是用現在的量去估計而已。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我們現在並沒有一個好的方法去控制量的成長，除了在醫院的部分，健保署有跟各醫院去做協商，可能採取一些攤扣的方法來處理，其他並沒有，因為我們現在核刪的比例已經降低了，加上放大回推也沒有了。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教目前我們的目標如果是一點一元的話，剛剛部長有特別提到也許量會衝高……"],["薛部長瑞元：一定會。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果我們可以從量，就是說怎麼樣保值，讓我們的點值能夠維持在一元，量不要衝高，我覺得這可能可以去防止一些不必要的醫療浪費，我個人是這麼覺得啦，我不知道部長你怎麼看？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是必須要由大家來做討論的，因為如果這個預算是有限的，那就是量跟價的問題，我們現在要把價從平均零點九幾調到一元，也就是價上升，價上升的話，勢必量就必須要緊縮，量要緊縮的話，就是一些方法嘛！包括放大回推、核刪，另外就是斷頭等等，這個醫界要能夠接受，要不然的話，這會變成一個沒有止境的膨脹。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是這樣會變成，剛剛所說的量如果沒辦法控制的話，可能會變成我做越多、被砍得越多。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，量沒有辦法控制的話，就表示不能砍，或者砍了就不能增加，這個量就會暴增嘛！"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：在健保裡面，過去是因為在總額預算制度之下，量的部分我們儘量不要限制過大，讓醫療機構可以比較好做事一點，但是這樣子就會造成點值下降，這是不得已的，在總額預算制度之下是這個樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，有時候我們會碰到一些問題，也許患者早上在這個醫院，下午可能又跑到另外一個醫院；早上可能做了一些檢查，下午到另外一家醫院可能又做了一些檢查。當然我們現在有把X光或是其他檢查的部分丟到雲端，也許下一家醫院看得到，但有時候還是會有重複做檢查的狀況。我的意思是說，如果我們的點值可以保障一點一元的話，那就可以針對不必要的浪費或不必要的重複檢查更加嚴格的去管控，我覺得也許可以達到我們現在想要的點值是一點一元。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話，目前健保的資訊系統裡面大概都可以看得到，包括過去的一些檢查或者是過去所開的藥，所以重複的機會不大啦！除非這個醫師真的很懶，他都沒有去check病患在別家醫院最近或者同一天已經做過的部分。就這部分來講的話，當然健保可能會對於這種情形去做核刪，藉以減少這種重複檢查、重複開藥的情形，這是現在就已經有的機制。從這一個機制來看的話，也許它有達到它的目的，但是不可能變成一個新的、能夠再增加對於預算的控管。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我碰到好幾個案例，就是有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所去拿藥，他的藥不一定會吃啦，這也算是形成一種浪費……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是另外一種……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我會覺得如果我們是要去保障點值一點一元的話，那我們可以從其他的地方著墨，一方面可能也讓民眾知道如果你去醫院看病的話，所有的檢查及所有的藥都是很珍貴的資源，就是要珍惜啦！再來就是針對不必要的浪費，可能我們就先去基層的診所看，如果沒辦法的話，再到醫學中心去，那就是分級醫療的部分。如果可以這樣子的話，是不是可以確保未來的點值是一點一元？"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的、我們要努力的方向，也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美，但是必須要持續地去推動。不過我沒有辦法說只要做了這個，就可以確保一點一元，這我沒有辦法說。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我再請教部長，因為我們現在看到很多醫院靠的其實是業外收入，而不是醫療本身的收入盈餘，它是靠業外收入，可能靠美食街、靠停車場，其實我覺得這個都不正常，醫院應該就是針對民眾醫療的部分。我們也看到有的醫院是靠自費，可能就是自費的項目比較多，然後造成醫院的盈餘。雖然目前都有健保，但我看到有的民眾去開刀，醫師可能會跟他說健保的不好，自費的醫材可能會比較好，或者是健保的藥不好，可能會有一些副作用，自費的可能會比較好，類似這樣的狀況。當然醫院或者醫療器材隨著時間可能會有更好的藥或者是更先進的醫療方式，那當然都是我們樂見的，如果有健保的話，當然醫院有的是靠業外收入，有的是靠醫療本身的收入盈餘，這個好像也不是很正常。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這裡面可能有一個地方是有誤會的，業外收入當然就是停車場、美食街，那個是業外收入沒有錯，但是有關醫療本業部分的話，剛剛委員提到自費，事實上，在醫院的財報裡面，它有一個健保收入，在收入當中除了業外收入之外，就是醫務收入，醫務收入分為健保及非健保，非健保不等於是自費，因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫，或者是說像COVID疫情期間的時候，醫療費用是有公務預算補助的，它都會列入到非健保的收入，這個部分其實也不小，所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然，我們林林總總看到醫界的困境，其實很多醫界一直在反映點值過低，所以我們也希望透過今天的詢答，下禮拜一也會有一個公聽會，來廣聽各界的意見。"],["薛部長瑞元：我相信健保是需要改革的，目前的總額預算制度也存在了一些缺點，但是要怎麼樣改，可能不是只有單修這一個條文就能夠處理的。單修這一個條文，沒有其他的配套的話，可能會造成風險控管會更加厲害，搞不好健保3年之後就倒了，這樣是我們需要的嗎？","健保是臺灣非常珍貴的資產，讓民眾的安全，不管是主觀的安全感或者事實上在經濟上面不會因病而貧，這樣的社會安全支柱，我們覺得大家應該要珍惜，不要看到它哪一個地方不好，然後就大力地想要把它沖垮，我知道醫界也有人講說「健保不倒，臺灣不會好」，那個都是錯誤的。所以我想藉這個時間跟委員報告，也讓社會大眾能夠理解，這是一個非常需要去珍惜的資產。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我們希望下禮拜的公聽會可以廣聽各界的意見，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：接下來請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"id":"152018","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152018","tool":"pyannote","id":"152018-pyannote"},"job_id":"L9iP7oib4Pt5qkk0","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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00:00:19,061\n議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條\n\n3\n00:00:35,267 --> 00:00:35,887\nlapt��﹖\n\n4\n00:01:21,314 --> 00:01:40,204\n我基本上這在剛剛恐龍報告的時候也已經提到過了,那因為如果說1.1元的話補到這樣的程度的話,我們大概一年就是公務預算就要用掉1100多億,那這只是用現在的量去估計而已,但是\n\n5\n00:01:40,964 --> 00:01:41,424\nbicylson\n\n6\n00:03:10,754 --> 00:03:31,508\nessee方法嘛。放大回推啦、核三啦、另外就是斷頭啦等等這些。這個依據要能夠接受。要不然的話這個是變成是一個沒有指定的膨脹。可是這樣會變成說有的就是剛量如果沒辦法控制的話可能會變成我做越多然後被砍的越多。\n\n7\n00:03:32,208 --> 00:03:32,648\nneteso\n\n8\n00:03:49,497 --> 00:04:03,863\nbicyn量的部分的話我們盡量不要說限制過大,讓醫療機構可以比較好做事一點,但是這樣子就會造成電子下降。這是不得已在總預算制度之下是這個樣子。\n\n9\n00:05:43,819 --> 00:05:50,081\nbicyn其實我碰到好幾個就是說有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所那他拿藥他的藥不一定會吃啦齁\n\n10\n00:06:48,808 --> 00:07:06,638\n這些剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的,我們要努力的方向,也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美,當然必須要持續的去推動,但是我沒有辦法說只要做了這一個的話,那就可以確保一點一點,這我沒有辦法說。\n\n11\n00:07:07,498 --> 00:07:31,063\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具«全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。我再請教部長,因為我們現在看到很多醫院,其實它靠的是業外的收入,它不是醫療本身的這個收入盈餘,它是靠業外收入,可能靠美食街,靠停車場,那其實我都覺得說這個都不正常,醫院它應該就是這個民眾的這個醫療的部分,那我們也看到有的醫院是靠自費,\n\n12\n00:07:31,963 --> 00:07:32,223\nbicyn沈沈\n\n13\n00:08:05,938 --> 00:08:08,499\nbedingt這裡面可能會有一個地方是有誤會的。\n\n14\n00:08:34,063 --> 00:09:01,326\n閱外收入當然就是停車場、美食街那個是沒有錯是閱外收入但是醫療本業的部分的話剛剛委員提到說自費事實上在醫院的財報裡面它有一個健保收入收入裡面閱外收入之外的話就是醫務收入醫務收入分健保跟非健保非健保不等於是自費因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫\n\n15\n00:09:02,307 --> 00:09:23,367\nbicyn或是說像那個COVID中間疫情期間的時候我們這個醫療費用是有公務預算補助的它都會列入到這個非健保的收入這個部分的話其實也不小所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入\n\n16\n00:09:23,527 --> 00:09:26,450\n我相信就是說健保是需要改革的。目前的總額預算制度也存在了一些缺點。\n\n17\n00:09:50,069 --> 00:10:12,588\nbicyn但是要怎麼樣改,可能不是只有單修這個條文就能夠處理的。單修這個條文沒有其他的配套的話,可能會造成那個風險的控管會更加厲害。搞不好健保三年之後就倒了。這樣是我們需要的嗎?健保是台灣一個非常珍貴的一個資產。\n\n18\n00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:30,421\n讓這個民眾的安全,不管是主觀的安全感或事實上的在經濟上面不會因病而病。這樣子的一個社會安全的自治,我們覺得說應該大家要珍惜。\n\n19\n00:10:31,181 --> 00:10:34,402\nesseetocherishthisasset.\n\n20\n00:10:56,206 --> 00:10:59,295\n好,那我們希望說下禮拜的公聽會可以廣聽各界的這個意見。好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n4590\t5393\t謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,請薛部長\n12318\t19061\t議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條\n35267\t35887\tlapt��﹖\n61357\t80794\t​​​​​​​​​​​​\n81314\t100204\t我基本上這在剛剛恐龍報告的時候也已經提到過了,那因為如果說1.1元的話補到這樣的程度的話,我們大概一年就是公務預算就要用掉1100多億,那這只是用現在的量去估計而已,但是\n100964\t101424\tbicylson\n116954\t137978\t​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\n137978\t167978\t​​​​​​\n167978\t190674\t​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\n190754\t211508\tessee 方法嘛。放大回推啦、核三啦、另外就是斷頭啦等等這些。這個依據要能夠接受。要不然的話這個是變成是一個沒有指定的膨脹。可是這樣會變成說有的就是剛量如果沒辦法控制的話可能會變成我做越多然後被砍的越多。\n212208\t212648\tneteso\n229497\t243863\tbicyn 量的部分的話我們盡量不要說限制過大,讓醫療機構可以比較好做事一點,但是這樣子就會造成電子下降。這是不得已在總預算制度之下是這個樣子。\n244923\t265196\t​​​​​​​​​​​​\n265196\t286220\t​​​​​​​​​​\n286220\t301954\t​​​​​​​​\n302227\t321647\t​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\n321647\t343319\t​​​​​​​​​​\n343819\t350081\tbicyn 其實我碰到好幾個就是說有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所那他拿藥他的藥不一定會吃啦齁\n364684\t384531\t​​​​​​​​​​​​\n384531\t408046\t​​​​​​​​\n408808\t426638\t這些剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的,我們要努力的方向,也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美,當然必須要持續的去推動,但是我沒有辦法說只要做了這一個的話,那就可以確保一點一點,這我沒有辦法說。\n427498\t451063\t一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。我再請教部長,因為我們現在看到很多醫院,其實它靠的是業外的收入,它不是醫療本身的這個收入盈餘,它是靠業外收入,可能靠美食街,靠停車場,那其實我都覺得說這個都不正常,醫院它應該就是這個民眾的這個醫療的部分,那我們也看到有的醫院是靠自費,\n451963\t452223\tbicyn 沈 沈\n467193\t485538\t\n485938\t488499\tbedingt 這裡面可能會有一個地方是有誤會的。\n514063\t541326\t閱外收入當然就是停車場、美食街那個是沒有錯是閱外收入但是醫療本業的部分的話剛剛委員提到說自費事實上在醫院的財報裡面它有一個健保收入收入裡面閱外收入之外的話就是醫務收入醫務收入分健保跟非健保非健保不等於是自費因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫\n542307\t563367\tbicyn 或是說像那個COVID中間疫情期間的時候我們這個醫療費用是有公務預算補助的它都會列入到這個非健保的收入這個部分的話其實也不小所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入\n563527\t566450\t我相信就是說健保是需要改革的。目前的總額預算制度也存在了一些缺點。\n590069\t612588\tbicyn 但是要怎麼樣改,可能不是只有單修這個條文就能夠處理的。單修這個條文沒有其他的配套的話,可能會造成那個風險的控管會更加厲害。搞不好健保三年之後就倒了。這樣是我們需要的嗎?健保是台灣一個非常珍貴的一個資產。\n615450\t630421\t讓這個民眾的安全,不管是主觀的安全感或事實上的在經濟上面不會因病而病。這樣子的一個社會安全的自治,我們覺得說應該大家要珍惜。\n631181\t634402\tessee to cherish this asset.\n656206\t659295\t好,那我們希望說下禮拜的公聽會可以廣聽各界的這個意見。好,謝謝。\n","txt":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,請薛部長\n議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條\nlapt��﹖\n​​​​​​​​​​​​\n我基本上這在剛剛恐龍報告的時候也已經提到過了,那因為如果說1.1元的話補到這樣的程度的話,我們大概一年就是公務預算就要用掉1100多億,那這只是用現在的量去估計而已,但是\nbicylson\n​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\n​​​​​​\n​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\nessee 方法嘛。放大回推啦、核三啦、另外就是斷頭啦等等這些。這個依據要能夠接受。要不然的話這個是變成是一個沒有指定的膨脹。可是這樣會變成說有的就是剛量如果沒辦法控制的話可能會變成我做越多然後被砍的越多。\nneteso\nbicyn 量的部分的話我們盡量不要說限制過大,讓醫療機構可以比較好做事一點,但是這樣子就會造成電子下降。這是不得已在總預算制度之下是這個樣子。\n​​​​​​​​​​​​\n​​​​​​​​​​\n​​​​​​​​\n​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​\n​​​​​​​​​​\nbicyn 其實我碰到好幾個就是說有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所那他拿藥他的藥不一定會吃啦齁\n​​​​​​​​​​​​\n​​​​​​​​\n這些剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的,我們要努力的方向,也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美,當然必須要持續的去推動,但是我沒有辦法說只要做了這一個的話,那就可以確保一點一點,這我沒有辦法說。\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。我再請教部長,因為我們現在看到很多醫院,其實它靠的是業外的收入,它不是醫療本身的這個收入盈餘,它是靠業外收入,可能靠美食街,靠停車場,那其實我都覺得說這個都不正常,醫院它應該就是這個民眾的這個醫療的部分,那我們也看到有的醫院是靠自費,\nbicyn 沈 沈\n\nbedingt 這裡面可能會有一個地方是有誤會的。\n閱外收入當然就是停車場、美食街那個是沒有錯是閱外收入但是醫療本業的部分的話剛剛委員提到說自費事實上在醫院的財報裡面它有一個健保收入收入裡面閱外收入之外的話就是醫務收入醫務收入分健保跟非健保非健保不等於是自費因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫\nbicyn 或是說像那個COVID中間疫情期間的時候我們這個醫療費用是有公務預算補助的它都會列入到這個非健保的收入這個部分的話其實也不小所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入\n我相信就是說健保是需要改革的。目前的總額預算制度也存在了一些缺點。\nbicyn 但是要怎麼樣改,可能不是只有單修這個條文就能夠處理的。單修這個條文沒有其他的配套的話,可能會造成那個風險的控管會更加厲害。搞不好健保三年之後就倒了。這樣是我們需要的嗎?健保是台灣一個非常珍貴的一個資產。\n讓這個民眾的安全,不管是主觀的安全感或事實上的在經濟上面不會因病而病。這樣子的一個社會安全的自治,我們覺得說應該大家要珍惜。\nessee to cherish this asset.\n好,那我們希望說下禮拜的公聽會可以廣聽各界的這個意見。好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:04.590 --> 00:05.393\n謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,請薛部長\n\n00:12.318 --> 00:19.061\n議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第六十二條條\n\n00:35.267 --> 00:35.887\nlapt��﹖\n\n01:21.314 --> 01:40.204\n我基本上這在剛剛恐龍報告的時候也已經提到過了,那因為如果說1.1元的話補到這樣的程度的話,我們大概一年就是公務預算就要用掉1100多億,那這只是用現在的量去估計而已,但是\n\n01:40.964 --> 01:41.424\nbicylson\n\n03:10.754 --> 03:31.508\nessee方法嘛。放大回推啦、核三啦、另外就是斷頭啦等等這些。這個依據要能夠接受。要不然的話這個是變成是一個沒有指定的膨脹。可是這樣會變成說有的就是剛量如果沒辦法控制的話可能會變成我做越多然後被砍的越多。\n\n03:32.208 --> 03:32.648\nneteso\n\n03:49.497 --> 04:03.863\nbicyn量的部分的話我們盡量不要說限制過大,讓醫療機構可以比較好做事一點,但是這樣子就會造成電子下降。這是不得已在總預算制度之下是這個樣子。\n\n05:43.819 --> 05:50.081\nbicyn其實我碰到好幾個就是說有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所那他拿藥他的藥不一定會吃啦齁\n\n06:48.808 --> 07:06.638\n這些剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的,我們要努力的方向,也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美,當然必須要持續的去推動,但是我沒有辦法說只要做了這一個的話,那就可以確保一點一點,這我沒有辦法說。\n\n07:07.498 --> 07:31.063\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具«全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。我再請教部長,因為我們現在看到很多醫院,其實它靠的是業外的收入,它不是醫療本身的這個收入盈餘,它是靠業外收入,可能靠美食街,靠停車場,那其實我都覺得說這個都不正常,醫院它應該就是這個民眾的這個醫療的部分,那我們也看到有的醫院是靠自費,\n\n07:31.963 --> 07:32.223\nbicyn沈沈\n\n08:05.938 --> 08:08.499\nbedingt這裡面可能會有一個地方是有誤會的。\n\n08:34.063 --> 09:01.326\n閱外收入當然就是停車場、美食街那個是沒有錯是閱外收入但是醫療本業的部分的話剛剛委員提到說自費事實上在醫院的財報裡面它有一個健保收入收入裡面閱外收入之外的話就是醫務收入醫務收入分健保跟非健保非健保不等於是自費因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫\n\n09:02.307 --> 09:23.367\nbicyn或是說像那個COVID中間疫情期間的時候我們這個醫療費用是有公務預算補助的它都會列入到這個非健保的收入這個部分的話其實也不小所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入\n\n09:23.527 --> 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