{"id":152044,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1bb929ab2b45e714b455ccb8302deb5eb55be169921a0a71708299f9cc5a62a845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:22:50 - 10:30:57","影片長度":"00:08:07","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":487,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:30:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:22:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":303,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時22分）有請吳主委跟鄒署長。"],["主席：請吳主委、鄒署長。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員，你好。"],["林委員沛祥：吳主委，你從35年前的基隆市政府工程局局長開始，因為我昨天才跟我家老爺子林水木市長聊過天，才知道您在基隆市政府任職過，吳主委一向是以專業跟實事求是的態度來處理公務，這一點讓本席非常敬重，聽說您因為身體的因素跟自己個人的因素而倦勤，本席認為這不只是公共工程委員會的一個損失，也是我們中華民國公務系統一個很大的損失。不過我必須也要請教吳主委，以您的專業跟經驗，想必對於您理想中的繼任者會有一定的標準跟期待，對於即將接任的陳金德主委，您會有什麼樣的期許跟建議，讓他在這個公共工程委員會主委這麼重要的職位上面能夠勝任呢？"],["吳主任委員澤成：就我個人來講，這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院各位委員非常多的支持跟指教，我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設，包括品質、包括進度、包括各方面的要求。未來當然我們也期待，我也相信無論誰來接棒，他應該都會繼續的推動下去。"],["林委員沛祥：好，不過老實講，媒體在去年9月23號有一個報導，當然標題是比較誇張，不過事實上在去年9月份的時候不只是屏東爆炸事件，還有很多的事故，導致在去年9月平均每5天就有一則死亡事故，臺灣重大的工安死亡率是新加坡的2倍、是日本的1.8倍，請問吳主委跟鄒署長如何解釋這樣的現象呢？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員的詢問。其實臺灣整體的職業災害是有逐漸降低，但確實是比較緩慢，參考日本跟新加坡，他們在東南亞地區算是排名第一、第二的國家，他們國家的制度跟投入相對是可以讓我們學習的。我覺得我們臺灣特別是營造業的部分，就是整體上管理的落實必須再加強，即使我們有規範、有法規、有監督檢查，但是施工單位的現場監督、管理，我想是重中之重，所以我們職安署會針對未來現場的管理系統有沒有落實做比較細緻的追蹤檢查跟要求，以上報告。"],["林委員沛祥：OK。同樣也是在去年，去年有一份報導指出，工商協會的秘書長也特地說，臺灣的勞動檢查員在2022年只有1,033位，全臺灣職業安全的檢查員也只有六百多不到七百位，那我們全臺灣的企業有多少？我們怎麼可能檢查得完呢？一個勞工發生職業災害，不是只有他本身受到一些傷害，其實會影響到整個家庭。我想請問，現在已經是2024年，請問現在勞動部是否有計畫來改善現況，而且在未來做出有效的稽查？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員，這個檢查員的數字是正確的，非常謝謝委員。我們認為我們的檢查作業是要分級風險檢查，比較高風險的、比較重點的事項我們做檢查，一般中小或者是比較微型，或是風險比較低的事業單位，其實它要做自主管理才是上策，要不然每個事業單位都靠政府來檢查，這個機制是不對的。包括日本跟新加坡，他們檢查員的比例也沒有特別高，所以我們職安署也在做檢討，我們做有效的監督檢查，但是現場安全衛生的監督人員或管制人員，那才是我們的關鍵重點，我們第一線的安全衛生管理人員是我們現在要求培訓或更好的落實，這是我們認為可以做改善以比較正面的方法來進行。"],["林委員沛祥：好。那我這邊也是想說，在公共工程裡面，基層的勞工其實往往是最弱勢的，甚至在日本、新加坡，甚至所有先進國家裡面，當這些職災發生了，通常都是最基層的勞工也是最低薪的勞工會受到犧牲，而本席對於公共工程勞工的保障是相當重視的，但是我們說真的，看到數據統計之後，我們是非常失望，請問主委有確實掌握職災中受傷的人數嗎？輕重傷的比例、受傷的原因呢？尤其是施工廠商後續處理是否也要追蹤，避免不肖廠商一再參加工程投標，這些數字請問鄒署長都有確實掌握嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，重大事故的部分，我們一個個案都不會讓它漏掉，失能的部分進入我們勞保的體系，會給予職災給付，職災給付之後，失能或部分傷害的工作者，他如何重建、回到工作職場，我們有預防跟重建中心的協助跟展開；針對輕微傷害的部分，是法律沒有強制通報的部分，當然就回到公司自主管理，自主做自己的這些安全系統的改善，我想是層層的機制來做展開，我們職安署或是勞動部針對重大案件部分的追蹤，包括一而再、再而三發生的事業單位，比如說去年中捷的案件，那個事業單位、那個建設公司，我們全國的盤查，這個我們不會鬆手，請委員能夠知悉，謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：我想請問一下，如果職安署知道狀況，請問您知道我們……當然這個數字大家都知道，就是在2022年（111年）的時候，我們職災死亡人數是320人，是五年來新高，但是同年的職災失能傷害人次高達1萬3,000人，其實這代表從107年到111年的統計，失能傷害頻率就是每百萬工時導致失能傷害次數已經從1.27升到1.49，嚴格講起來，如果以20%來算的話，我們這其實已經將近超過20%了，所以這是我們面臨職災嚴重的狀況，對吧！"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，我們職災的統計數字有死亡、失能跟傷病，失能的部分、傷害的部分我們會做列管，傷病的部分，在過去兩年COVID-19有放寬認定它是職業傷病給予給付的機制，所以那個數字也可以跟我們做一些背景資料的分析，我們職安署當然是針對重中之重──死亡跟失能的部分來做比較有效的target做監督檢查，促使產業不管是目的事業主管機關，或是他自己的雇主要做更好的防範措施，所以有關個案部分的列管，我們會比較細緻地做展開，也謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員沛祥：其實剛剛你講說都是雇主，我覺得的確雇主需要管制好一點啦！可是很多時候我們的法規、我們的規範、我們整個系統的工程設計，如果我們不在第一線去做把關，然後最後面出了事就直接說你們雇主要加油，本席覺得這句話聽下去讓人家覺得很心酸、很不能認同。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員，我澄清一下，政府的監督機制，我們不會說我們沒有責任，但是整體上的現場管理，事業單位它負有經營跟永續發展的責任，所以我們是合作關係，而不是我們把責任都推給事業單位或推給雇主，甚至很多勞工受傷，我們後面的資源協助、補助的系統，也是透過整個保險的機制來給予協助，不會就讓雇主完全承擔，跟委員做這樣的澄清。"],["林委員沛祥：我希望勞動部會把職安這件事情真的放在心上，因為如果我們被人家講說我們每1.5天就會有1個勞工死亡，這件事如果拿出來講的話，其實是非常駭人聽聞的事情，我們自詡為先進國家，但是我們這方面並沒有做得很好。最後，吳主委，希望您一切順利、身體健康。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝，非常感謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員發言完畢，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時31分）","繼續開會（10時44分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152044","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152044","tool":"pyannote","id":"152044-pyannote"},"job_id":"juleTXeChQkppsgg","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"據我個人來講這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院國會委員的支持跟指教非常多那麼我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設包括品質包括進度包括各方面的這個要求\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"據\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 71.473, \"end\": 71.893, \"score\": 0.903}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 71.893, \"end\": 73.054, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"幾\"}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 73.054, \"end\": 74.675, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"當\"}, {\"word\": \"然\", \"start\": 74.675, \"end\": 74.915, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"首\", \"start\": 74.915, \"end\": 75.035, \"score\": 0.838}, {\"word\": \"先\", \"start\": 75.035, \"end\": 75.115, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 75.115, \"end\": 75.296, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"感\", \"start\": 75.296, \"end\": 75.676, \"score\": 0.943}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 75.676, \"end\": 75.816, \"score\": 0.962}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 75.816, \"end\": 75.936, \"score\": 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{\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 459.299, \"end\": 459.479, \"score\": 0.875}, {\"word\": \"澄\", \"start\": 459.479, \"end\": 459.68, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"清\", \"start\": 459.68, \"end\": 459.7, \"score\": 0.009}, {\"word\": \"林\", \"start\": 460.12, \"end\": 460.22, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"沛\", \"start\": 460.22, \"end\": 460.32, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"祥\", \"start\": 460.32, \"end\": 460.34, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,389 --> 00:00:28,115\n有請吳主委跟周署長吳主委從35年前的基隆市政府工程局局長開始因為我昨天才跟我家老爺子林水木市長聊過天才知道您在基隆市政府任職過吳主委一向是以專業跟實事求是的態度來處理公務\n\n2\n00:00:29,196 --> 00:00:49,718\n這點是讓本席非常敬重的那聽說您因為說身體的因素跟自己個人因素想要倦情那本席認為這個是不只是對公共工程委員會的一個損失也是對我們中華民國公務系統一個很大的損失不過當然啦我們必須也要請教吳主委就是說\n\n3\n00:00:50,859 --> 00:01:08,986\n以您的專業跟經驗想必對於您理想中的繼任者會有一定的標準跟期待那對於即將接任的陳金德成主委您會有什麼樣的期許跟建議讓他在這個公共工程委員會這麼重要的職位上面能夠升任呢?\n\n4\n00:01:11,473 --> 00:01:31,847\n據我個人來講這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院國會委員的支持跟指教非常多那麼我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設包括品質包括進度包括各方面的這個要求\n\n5\n00:01:32,668 --> 00:01:38,255\n那麼未來當然我們的期待我也相信應該會無論誰來接辦都會繼續的推動下去\n\n6\n00:01:41,431 --> 00:02:09,292\n好,不過老實講,針對媒體啦,媒體在我們去年9月23號,這當然標題是比較誇張,不過事實上也是說在去年9月份的時候不只是屏東爆炸事件,還有很多的事故,導致說在去年9月平均每5天就有一則的死亡事故,那台灣重大的公安死亡率是新加坡的2倍,日本的1.8倍,請問吳主委跟周處長如何解釋這樣的現象呢?\n\n7\n00:02:12,588 --> 00:02:31,435\n謝謝委員的詢問那台灣其實是整體的職業災害的降低是有逐漸降低但是確實是比較緩慢那參考日本跟新加坡是東南亞地區算是排名第一第二的國家他們國家的制度跟投入相對也是可以給我們做學習的\n\n8\n00:02:32,515 --> 00:02:53,150\n那我覺得我們台灣特別是營造業的部分就是整理上管理的落實必須要再加強即使我們有規範有法規有監督檢查但是現場施工單位的現場的監督管理我相信是重中之重所以我我們治安署會在未來現場的管理系統有沒有得到落實會做比較細緻的追蹤檢查跟要求以上報告\n\n9\n00:02:54,131 --> 00:03:14,985\n同樣也是在去年啦我去年有一份報導上面講說工商協會的秘書長有特地講說臺灣的勞動檢查員在2022年只有1033位所以說職業安全的檢查員也只有600多不到700位全臺灣那我們全臺灣的企業有多少我們怎麼可能檢查的完呢一個勞工發生職業災害\n\n10\n00:03:17,307 --> 00:03:28,141\n不只是只有他本身受到一些傷害其實會影響到整個家庭那我想請問現在已經是2024年請問現在勞動部是否有計畫來改善現況而且在未來做出有效的稽查\n\n11\n00:03:29,370 --> 00:03:56,670\n謝謝委員這個檢察員數字是正確的非常謝謝委員那我們認為我們的檢察社會是要分級風險檢查有比較高風險的比較重點的事項我們做檢查一般中小或者是比較微型或者是比較風險低的事業單位其他要做自主管理才是上策要不然每個事業單位都靠政府來檢查這個機制是不對的那包括日本跟新加坡檢察員的比例也沒有特別高所以我們檢察社會在做檢查我們做有效的監督檢查\n\n12\n00:03:57,310 --> 00:04:19,737\n但是現場的他的安全衛生的監督人員或管制人員那才是我們的關鍵的重點我們第一線的安全衛生管理人員是我們現在要求培訓或更好的落實這是我們認為是可以做改善的比較正面的方法來進行好那我這邊也是想說我們知道其實在這邊來講在公共工程裡面基層的勞工其實往往是最弱勢的\n\n13\n00:04:20,097 --> 00:04:41,349\n甚至說在日本、新加坡甚至所有的這個先進國家裡面所有當他們這些職災發生的通常都是最基層的勞工也是最低薪的勞工會被受到犧牲而本席對於公共工程勞工的保障是相當重視的但是我們說真的看到數據統計之後我們是非常失望請問主委有確實掌握職災中受傷的人數嗎?\n\n14\n00:04:42,350 --> 00:04:54,099\n那輕重傷的比例、受傷的原因呢?那尤其是說施工廠商後續處理是否也要追蹤,避免不肖廠商一再參加工程投標。這些數字請問我們州署長都有確實掌握嗎?\n\n15\n00:04:56,633 --> 00:04:56,733\n報告委員\n\n16\n00:05:14,793 --> 00:05:36,431\n法律沒有強制通報的部分當然就回到公司自主管理自主做自己的這些安全性要改善我想是層層的機制來做展開那我們暫屬或是勞動部針對重大案件的部分的追蹤還包括在發生的事業單位比如說我們講去年的中捷案件那個事業單位那個建設公司我們全國的盤查這個我們不會鬆手這樣請委員能夠能夠執行謝謝\n\n17\n00:05:38,533 --> 00:05:53,718\n那我想請問一下那如果職安署知道狀況請問您知道說我們當然這個數字大家都知道就是在2022年111年的時候我們職災死亡人數是320人是5年來新高但是同年的職災失能傷害人次到達13000人\n\n18\n00:05:55,399 --> 00:06:00,004\n那其實這代表說這個整個從107年到111年的統計失能傷害頻率也就是每百萬公尺導致失能傷害次數已經從1.27升到1.49\n\n19\n00:06:10,755 --> 00:06:10,955\n﹚林沛祥\n\n20\n00:06:31,431 --> 00:06:31,611\n謝謝委員提醒\n\n21\n00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,081\n這句話聽下去讓人覺得很心酸很不能認同\n\n22\n00:07:15,217 --> 00:07:39,700\n委員我要澄清一下政府的監督機制我們不會說我們沒有責任但是整體上的現場管理事業單位它負有經營跟永續發展的責任所以我們是合作的關係而不是我們把責任就推給事業單位或推給僱主那甚至很多勞工受傷我們的後面的資源協助補助系統也是通過整個保險的機制來給予協助不會完全讓僱主完全承擔而且跟委員做這樣的澄清\n\n23\n00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:40,340\n林沛祥\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n389\t28115\t有請吳主委跟周署長吳主委從35年前的基隆市政府工程局局長開始因為我昨天才跟我家老爺子林水木市長聊過天才知道您在基隆市政府任職過吳主委一向是以專業跟實事求是的態度來處理公務\n29196\t49718\t這點是讓本席非常敬重的那聽說您因為說身體的因素跟自己個人因素想要倦情那本席認為這個是不只是對公共工程委員會的一個損失也是對我們中華民國公務系統一個很大的損失不過當然啦我們必須也要請教吳主委就是說\n50859\t68986\t以您的專業跟經驗想必對於您理想中的繼任者會有一定的標準跟期待那對於即將接任的陳金德成主委您會有什麼樣的期許跟建議讓他在這個公共工程委員會這麼重要的職位上面能夠升任呢?\n71473\t91847\t據我個人來講這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院國會委員的支持跟指教非常多那麼我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設包括品質包括進度包括各方面的這個要求\n92668\t98255\t那麼未來當然我們的期待我也相信應該會無論誰來接辦都會繼續的推動下去\n101431\t129292\t好,不過老實講,針對媒體啦,媒體在我們去年9月23號,這當然標題是比較誇張,不過事實上也是說在去年9月份的時候不只是屏東爆炸事件,還有很多的事故,導致說在去年9月平均每5天就有一則的死亡事故,那台灣重大的公安死亡率是新加坡的2倍,日本的1.8倍,請問吳主委跟周處長如何解釋這樣的現象呢?\n132588\t151435\t謝謝委員的詢問那台灣其實是整體的職業災害的降低是有逐漸降低但是確實是比較緩慢那參考日本跟新加坡是東南亞地區算是排名第一第二的國家他們國家的制度跟投入相對也是可以給我們做學習的\n152515\t173150\t那我覺得我們台灣特別是營造業的部分就是整理上管理的落實必須要再加強即使我們有規範有法規有監督檢查但是現場施工單位的現場的監督管理我相信是重中之重所以我我們治安署會在未來現場的管理系統有沒有得到落實會做比較細緻的追蹤檢查跟要求以上報告\n174131\t194985\t同樣也是在去年啦我去年有一份報導上面講說工商協會的秘書長有特地講說臺灣的勞動檢查員在2022年只有1033位所以說職業安全的檢查員也只有600多不到700位全臺灣那我們全臺灣的企業有多少我們怎麼可能檢查的完呢一個勞工發生職業災害\n197307\t208141\t不只是只有他本身受到一些傷害其實會影響到整個家庭那我想請問現在已經是2024年請問現在勞動部是否有計畫來改善現況而且在未來做出有效的稽查\n209370\t236670\t謝謝委員 這個檢察員數字是正確的 非常謝謝委員那我們認為我們的檢察社會是要分級風險檢查有比較高風險的比較重點的事項我們做檢查一般中小或者是比較微型或者是比較風險低的事業單位其他要做自主管理才是上策要不然每個事業單位都靠政府來檢查這個機制是不對的那包括日本跟新加坡檢察員的比例也沒有特別高所以我們檢察社會在做檢查我們做有效的監督檢查\n237310\t259737\t但是現場的他的安全衛生的監督人員或管制人員那才是我們的關鍵的重點我們第一線的安全衛生管理人員是我們現在要求培訓或更好的落實這是我們認為是可以做改善的比較正面的方法來進行好那我這邊也是想說我們知道其實在這邊來講在公共工程裡面基層的勞工其實往往是最弱勢的\n260097\t281349\t甚至說在日本、新加坡甚至所有的這個先進國家裡面所有當他們這些職災發生的通常都是最基層的勞工也是最低薪的勞工會被受到犧牲而本席對於公共工程勞工的保障是相當重視的但是我們說真的看到數據統計之後我們是非常失望請問主委有確實掌握職災中受傷的人數嗎?\n282350\t294099\t那輕重傷的比例、受傷的原因呢?那尤其是說施工廠商後續處理是否也要追蹤,避免不肖廠商一再參加工程投標。這些數字請問我們州署長都有確實掌握嗎?\n296633\t296733\t報告委員\n314793\t336431\t法律沒有強制通報的部分當然就回到公司自主管理自主做自己的這些安全性要改善我想是層層的機制來做展開那我們暫屬或是勞動部針對重大案件的部分的追蹤還包括在發生的事業單位比如說我們講去年的中捷案件那個事業單位那個建設公司我們全國的盤查這個我們不會鬆手這樣請委員能夠能夠執行謝謝\n338533\t353718\t那我想請問一下那如果職安署知道狀況請問您知道說我們當然這個數字大家都知道就是在2022年111年的時候我們職災死亡人數是320人是5年來新高但是同年的職災失能傷害人次到達13000人\n355399\t360004\t那其實這代表說這個整個從107年到111年的統計失能傷害頻率也就是每百萬公尺導致失能傷害次數已經從1.27升到1.49\n370755\t370955\t﹚林沛祥\n391431\t391611\t謝謝委員提醒\n415640\t417081\t這句話聽下去讓人覺得很心酸很不能認同\n435217\t459700\t委員 我要澄清一下政府的監督機制我們不會說我們沒有責任但是整體上的現場管理事業單位它負有經營跟永續發展的責任所以我們是合作的關係而不是我們把責任就推給事業單位或推給僱主那甚至很多勞工受傷我們的後面的資源協助補助系統也是通過整個保險的機制來給予協助不會完全讓僱主完全承擔而且跟委員做這樣的澄清\n460120\t460340\t林沛祥\n","txt":"有請吳主委跟周署長吳主委從35年前的基隆市政府工程局局長開始因為我昨天才跟我家老爺子林水木市長聊過天才知道您在基隆市政府任職過吳主委一向是以專業跟實事求是的態度來處理公務\n這點是讓本席非常敬重的那聽說您因為說身體的因素跟自己個人因素想要倦情那本席認為這個是不只是對公共工程委員會的一個損失也是對我們中華民國公務系統一個很大的損失不過當然啦我們必須也要請教吳主委就是說\n以您的專業跟經驗想必對於您理想中的繼任者會有一定的標準跟期待那對於即將接任的陳金德成主委您會有什麼樣的期許跟建議讓他在這個公共工程委員會這麼重要的職位上面能夠升任呢?\n據我個人來講這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院國會委員的支持跟指教非常多那麼我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設包括品質包括進度包括各方面的這個要求\n那麼未來當然我們的期待我也相信應該會無論誰來接辦都會繼續的推動下去\n好,不過老實講,針對媒體啦,媒體在我們去年9月23號,這當然標題是比較誇張,不過事實上也是說在去年9月份的時候不只是屏東爆炸事件,還有很多的事故,導致說在去年9月平均每5天就有一則的死亡事故,那台灣重大的公安死亡率是新加坡的2倍,日本的1.8倍,請問吳主委跟周處長如何解釋這樣的現象呢?\n謝謝委員的詢問那台灣其實是整體的職業災害的降低是有逐漸降低但是確實是比較緩慢那參考日本跟新加坡是東南亞地區算是排名第一第二的國家他們國家的制度跟投入相對也是可以給我們做學習的\n那我覺得我們台灣特別是營造業的部分就是整理上管理的落實必須要再加強即使我們有規範有法規有監督檢查但是現場施工單位的現場的監督管理我相信是重中之重所以我我們治安署會在未來現場的管理系統有沒有得到落實會做比較細緻的追蹤檢查跟要求以上報告\n同樣也是在去年啦我去年有一份報導上面講說工商協會的秘書長有特地講說臺灣的勞動檢查員在2022年只有1033位所以說職業安全的檢查員也只有600多不到700位全臺灣那我們全臺灣的企業有多少我們怎麼可能檢查的完呢一個勞工發生職業災害\n不只是只有他本身受到一些傷害其實會影響到整個家庭那我想請問現在已經是2024年請問現在勞動部是否有計畫來改善現況而且在未來做出有效的稽查\n謝謝委員 這個檢察員數字是正確的 非常謝謝委員那我們認為我們的檢察社會是要分級風險檢查有比較高風險的比較重點的事項我們做檢查一般中小或者是比較微型或者是比較風險低的事業單位其他要做自主管理才是上策要不然每個事業單位都靠政府來檢查這個機制是不對的那包括日本跟新加坡檢察員的比例也沒有特別高所以我們檢察社會在做檢查我們做有效的監督檢查\n但是現場的他的安全衛生的監督人員或管制人員那才是我們的關鍵的重點我們第一線的安全衛生管理人員是我們現在要求培訓或更好的落實這是我們認為是可以做改善的比較正面的方法來進行好那我這邊也是想說我們知道其實在這邊來講在公共工程裡面基層的勞工其實往往是最弱勢的\n甚至說在日本、新加坡甚至所有的這個先進國家裡面所有當他們這些職災發生的通常都是最基層的勞工也是最低薪的勞工會被受到犧牲而本席對於公共工程勞工的保障是相當重視的但是我們說真的看到數據統計之後我們是非常失望請問主委有確實掌握職災中受傷的人數嗎?\n那輕重傷的比例、受傷的原因呢?那尤其是說施工廠商後續處理是否也要追蹤,避免不肖廠商一再參加工程投標。這些數字請問我們州署長都有確實掌握嗎?\n報告委員\n法律沒有強制通報的部分當然就回到公司自主管理自主做自己的這些安全性要改善我想是層層的機制來做展開那我們暫屬或是勞動部針對重大案件的部分的追蹤還包括在發生的事業單位比如說我們講去年的中捷案件那個事業單位那個建設公司我們全國的盤查這個我們不會鬆手這樣請委員能夠能夠執行謝謝\n那我想請問一下那如果職安署知道狀況請問您知道說我們當然這個數字大家都知道就是在2022年111年的時候我們職災死亡人數是320人是5年來新高但是同年的職災失能傷害人次到達13000人\n那其實這代表說這個整個從107年到111年的統計失能傷害頻率也就是每百萬公尺導致失能傷害次數已經從1.27升到1.49\n﹚林沛祥\n謝謝委員提醒\n這句話聽下去讓人覺得很心酸很不能認同\n委員 我要澄清一下政府的監督機制我們不會說我們沒有責任但是整體上的現場管理事業單位它負有經營跟永續發展的責任所以我們是合作的關係而不是我們把責任就推給事業單位或推給僱主那甚至很多勞工受傷我們的後面的資源協助補助系統也是通過整個保險的機制來給予協助不會完全讓僱主完全承擔而且跟委員做這樣的澄清\n林沛祥\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.389 --> 00:28.115\n有請吳主委跟周署長吳主委從35年前的基隆市政府工程局局長開始因為我昨天才跟我家老爺子林水木市長聊過天才知道您在基隆市政府任職過吳主委一向是以專業跟實事求是的態度來處理公務\n\n00:29.196 --> 00:49.718\n這點是讓本席非常敬重的那聽說您因為說身體的因素跟自己個人因素想要倦情那本席認為這個是不只是對公共工程委員會的一個損失也是對我們中華民國公務系統一個很大的損失不過當然啦我們必須也要請教吳主委就是說\n\n00:50.859 --> 01:08.986\n以您的專業跟經驗想必對於您理想中的繼任者會有一定的標準跟期待那對於即將接任的陳金德成主委您會有什麼樣的期許跟建議讓他在這個公共工程委員會這麼重要的職位上面能夠升任呢?\n\n01:11.473 --> 01:31.847\n據我個人來講這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院國會委員的支持跟指教非常多那麼我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設包括品質包括進度包括各方面的這個要求\n\n01:32.668 --> 01:38.255\n那麼未來當然我們的期待我也相信應該會無論誰來接辦都會繼續的推動下去\n\n01:41.431 --> 02:09.292\n好,不過老實講,針對媒體啦,媒體在我們去年9月23號,這當然標題是比較誇張,不過事實上也是說在去年9月份的時候不只是屏東爆炸事件,還有很多的事故,導致說在去年9月平均每5天就有一則的死亡事故,那台灣重大的公安死亡率是新加坡的2倍,日本的1.8倍,請問吳主委跟周處長如何解釋這樣的現象呢?\n\n02:12.588 --> 02:31.435\n謝謝委員的詢問那台灣其實是整體的職業災害的降低是有逐漸降低但是確實是比較緩慢那參考日本跟新加坡是東南亞地區算是排名第一第二的國家他們國家的制度跟投入相對也是可以給我們做學習的\n\n02:32.515 --> 02:53.150\n那我覺得我們台灣特別是營造業的部分就是整理上管理的落實必須要再加強即使我們有規範有法規有監督檢查但是現場施工單位的現場的監督管理我相信是重中之重所以我我們治安署會在未來現場的管理系統有沒有得到落實會做比較細緻的追蹤檢查跟要求以上報告\n\n02:54.131 --> 03:14.985\n同樣也是在去年啦我去年有一份報導上面講說工商協會的秘書長有特地講說臺灣的勞動檢查員在2022年只有1033位所以說職業安全的檢查員也只有600多不到700位全臺灣那我們全臺灣的企業有多少我們怎麼可能檢查的完呢一個勞工發生職業災害\n\n03:17.307 --> 03:28.141\n不只是只有他本身受到一些傷害其實會影響到整個家庭那我想請問現在已經是2024年請問現在勞動部是否有計畫來改善現況而且在未來做出有效的稽查\n\n03:29.370 --> 03:56.670\n謝謝委員這個檢察員數字是正確的非常謝謝委員那我們認為我們的檢察社會是要分級風險檢查有比較高風險的比較重點的事項我們做檢查一般中小或者是比較微型或者是比較風險低的事業單位其他要做自主管理才是上策要不然每個事業單位都靠政府來檢查這個機制是不對的那包括日本跟新加坡檢察員的比例也沒有特別高所以我們檢察社會在做檢查我們做有效的監督檢查\n\n03:57.310 --> 04:19.737\n但是現場的他的安全衛生的監督人員或管制人員那才是我們的關鍵的重點我們第一線的安全衛生管理人員是我們現在要求培訓或更好的落實這是我們認為是可以做改善的比較正面的方法來進行好那我這邊也是想說我們知道其實在這邊來講在公共工程裡面基層的勞工其實往往是最弱勢的\n\n04:20.097 --> 04:41.349\n甚至說在日本、新加坡甚至所有的這個先進國家裡面所有當他們這些職災發生的通常都是最基層的勞工也是最低薪的勞工會被受到犧牲而本席對於公共工程勞工的保障是相當重視的但是我們說真的看到數據統計之後我們是非常失望請問主委有確實掌握職災中受傷的人數嗎?\n\n04:42.350 --> 04:54.099\n那輕重傷的比例、受傷的原因呢?那尤其是說施工廠商後續處理是否也要追蹤,避免不肖廠商一再參加工程投標。這些數字請問我們州署長都有確實掌握嗎?\n\n04:56.633 --> 04:56.733\n報告委員\n\n05:14.793 --> 05:36.431\n法律沒有強制通報的部分當然就回到公司自主管理自主做自己的這些安全性要改善我想是層層的機制來做展開那我們暫屬或是勞動部針對重大案件的部分的追蹤還包括在發生的事業單位比如說我們講去年的中捷案件那個事業單位那個建設公司我們全國的盤查這個我們不會鬆手這樣請委員能夠能夠執行謝謝\n\n05:38.533 --> 05:53.718\n那我想請問一下那如果職安署知道狀況請問您知道說我們當然這個數字大家都知道就是在2022年111年的時候我們職災死亡人數是320人是5年來新高但是同年的職災失能傷害人次到達13000人\n\n05:55.399 --> 06:00.004\n那其實這代表說這個整個從107年到111年的統計失能傷害頻率也就是每百萬公尺導致失能傷害次數已經從1.27升到1.49\n\n06:10.755 --> 06:10.955\n﹚林沛祥\n\n06:31.431 --> 06:31.611\n謝謝委員提醒\n\n06:55.640 --> 06:57.081\n這句話聽下去讓人覺得很心酸很不能認同\n\n07:15.217 --> 07:39.700\n委員我要澄清一下政府的監督機制我們不會說我們沒有責任但是整體上的現場管理事業單位它負有經營跟永續發展的責任所以我們是合作的關係而不是我們把責任就推給事業單位或推給僱主那甚至很多勞工受傷我們的後面的資源協助補助系統也是通過整個保險的機制來給予協助不會完全讓僱主完全承擔而且跟委員做這樣的澄清\n\n07:40.120 --> 07:40.340\n林沛祥\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.389,"end":28.115,"text":"有請吳主委跟周署長吳主委從35年前的基隆市政府工程局局長開始因為我昨天才跟我家老爺子林水木市長聊過天才知道您在基隆市政府任職過吳主委一向是以專業跟實事求是的態度來處理公務"},{"start":29.196,"end":49.718,"text":"這點是讓本席非常敬重的那聽說您因為說身體的因素跟自己個人因素想要倦情那本席認為這個是不只是對公共工程委員會的一個損失也是對我們中華民國公務系統一個很大的損失不過當然啦我們必須也要請教吳主委就是說"},{"start":50.859,"end":68.986,"text":"以您的專業跟經驗想必對於您理想中的繼任者會有一定的標準跟期待那對於即將接任的陳金德成主委您會有什麼樣的期許跟建議讓他在這個公共工程委員會這麼重要的職位上面能夠升任呢?"},{"start":71.473,"end":91.847,"text":"據我個人來講這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院國會委員的支持跟指教非常多那麼我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設包括品質包括進度包括各方面的這個要求"},{"start":92.668,"end":98.255,"text":"那麼未來當然我們的期待我也相信應該會無論誰來接辦都會繼續的推動下去"},{"start":101.431,"end":129.292,"text":"好,不過老實講,針對媒體啦,媒體在我們去年9月23號,這當然標題是比較誇張,不過事實上也是說在去年9月份的時候不只是屏東爆炸事件,還有很多的事故,導致說在去年9月平均每5天就有一則的死亡事故,那台灣重大的公安死亡率是新加坡的2倍,日本的1.8倍,請問吳主委跟周處長如何解釋這樣的現象呢?"},{"start":132.588,"end":151.435,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問那台灣其實是整體的職業災害的降低是有逐漸降低但是確實是比較緩慢那參考日本跟新加坡是東南亞地區算是排名第一第二的國家他們國家的制度跟投入相對也是可以給我們做學習的"},{"start":152.515,"end":173.15,"text":"那我覺得我們台灣特別是營造業的部分就是整理上管理的落實必須要再加強即使我們有規範有法規有監督檢查但是現場施工單位的現場的監督管理我相信是重中之重所以我我們治安署會在未來現場的管理系統有沒有得到落實會做比較細緻的追蹤檢查跟要求以上報告"},{"start":174.131,"end":194.985,"text":"同樣也是在去年啦我去年有一份報導上面講說工商協會的秘書長有特地講說臺灣的勞動檢查員在2022年只有1033位所以說職業安全的檢查員也只有600多不到700位全臺灣那我們全臺灣的企業有多少我們怎麼可能檢查的完呢一個勞工發生職業災害"},{"start":197.307,"end":208.141,"text":"不只是只有他本身受到一些傷害其實會影響到整個家庭那我想請問現在已經是2024年請問現在勞動部是否有計畫來改善現況而且在未來做出有效的稽查"},{"start":209.37,"end":236.67,"text":"謝謝委員 這個檢察員數字是正確的 非常謝謝委員那我們認為我們的檢察社會是要分級風險檢查有比較高風險的比較重點的事項我們做檢查一般中小或者是比較微型或者是比較風險低的事業單位其他要做自主管理才是上策要不然每個事業單位都靠政府來檢查這個機制是不對的那包括日本跟新加坡檢察員的比例也沒有特別高所以我們檢察社會在做檢查我們做有效的監督檢查"},{"start":237.31,"end":259.737,"text":"但是現場的他的安全衛生的監督人員或管制人員那才是我們的關鍵的重點我們第一線的安全衛生管理人員是我們現在要求培訓或更好的落實這是我們認為是可以做改善的比較正面的方法來進行好那我這邊也是想說我們知道其實在這邊來講在公共工程裡面基層的勞工其實往往是最弱勢的"},{"start":260.097,"end":281.349,"text":"甚至說在日本、新加坡甚至所有的這個先進國家裡面所有當他們這些職災發生的通常都是最基層的勞工也是最低薪的勞工會被受到犧牲而本席對於公共工程勞工的保障是相當重視的但是我們說真的看到數據統計之後我們是非常失望請問主委有確實掌握職災中受傷的人數嗎?"},{"start":282.35,"end":294.099,"text":"那輕重傷的比例、受傷的原因呢?那尤其是說施工廠商後續處理是否也要追蹤,避免不肖廠商一再參加工程投標。這些數字請問我們州署長都有確實掌握嗎?"},{"start":296.633,"end":296.733,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":314.793,"end":336.431,"text":"法律沒有強制通報的部分當然就回到公司自主管理自主做自己的這些安全性要改善我想是層層的機制來做展開那我們暫屬或是勞動部針對重大案件的部分的追蹤還包括在發生的事業單位比如說我們講去年的中捷案件那個事業單位那個建設公司我們全國的盤查這個我們不會鬆手這樣請委員能夠能夠執行謝謝"},{"start":338.533,"end":353.718,"text":"那我想請問一下那如果職安署知道狀況請問您知道說我們當然這個數字大家都知道就是在2022年111年的時候我們職災死亡人數是320人是5年來新高但是同年的職災失能傷害人次到達13000人"},{"start":355.399,"end":360.004,"text":"那其實這代表說這個整個從107年到111年的統計失能傷害頻率也就是每百萬公尺導致失能傷害次數已經從1.27升到1.49"},{"start":370.755,"end":370.955,"text":"﹚林沛祥"},{"start":391.431,"end":391.611,"text":"謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":415.64,"end":417.081,"text":"這句話聽下去讓人覺得很心酸很不能認同"},{"start":435.217,"end":459.7,"text":"委員 我要澄清一下政府的監督機制我們不會說我們沒有責任但是整體上的現場管理事業單位它負有經營跟永續發展的責任所以我們是合作的關係而不是我們把責任就推給事業單位或推給僱主那甚至很多勞工受傷我們的後面的資源協助補助系統也是通過整個保險的機制來給予協助不會完全讓僱主完全承擔而且跟委員做這樣的澄清"},{"start":460.12,"end":460.34,"text":"林沛祥"}]}}}}