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11:31:19","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":542,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:31:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:22:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（11時22分）謝謝主席。本席邀請工程會吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["林委員俊憲：吳主委，你有看到這個新聞嘛！就是關於國道3號田寮還有中寮隧道……"],["吳主任委員澤成：有看到。"],["林委員俊憲：這項工程應該2019年要完工，結果拖到2020年才完工，後來有人檢舉偷工減料，所以2021年檢調就去開挖，檢調去查以後，不知道為什麼，這個新聞當時也沒受到大家的注意，一直到前幾天，也就是到今年2024年4月26號媒體才報導出檢調去查驗的相關結果，發現嚴重的偷工減料。你現在才知道這個新聞嘛！"],["吳主任委員澤成：看到。"],["林委員俊憲：好，你有看到，你注意看喔！根據檢調所查的，第一個問題是岩栓，你是工程內行人，應該知道吧！就是在整體灌漿時要用來咬住山壁，但檢測26支岩栓裡只有16支合格，不合格率達62%；而在第二波的隨機選樣，也就是隨機抽樣，檢調去查時亂抽的，第二次抽出來有46.3%是不合格的。你現在知道這件事情吧！"],["吳主任委員澤成：我是看到這個報導才知道。"],["林委員俊憲：好。","檢調後來再去查，根據媒體的報導，雖然有這麼高的不合格率，但是在現場的抽驗，你知道現場都有監工及稽核小組等等，但抽驗結果欄寫的都是……台灣世曦是監造，他們在現場有派了一個監造主任，但在監造規範檢查結果欄裡面都是填寫「符合」，我不知道他在監造什麼東西啦！不是一、兩根不合格耶！不合格率在第一次抽驗時有62%，而且抽驗是兩波的，第二波仍有百分之四十幾的不合格率。同時，檢調也在台灣世曦的辦公室搜查岩栓的相關記載，發現填寫的工程檢驗日期竟然在灌漿日期之前。你知道嘛！要灌漿完成才能去驗，怎麼會還沒灌漿就驗好了？要作弊卻連日期都寫錯！工程會有沒有進一步去了解這件事情？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們已經請同仁進一步去了解。我第一個訝異的是，高公局跟台灣世曦兩個部門是國內比較嚴謹的部門，為什麼還會發生這樣的事？所以我們會詳細了解。"],["林委員俊憲：好，要了解為什麼這麼重大的工程，挖隧道和邊坡算重大工程了吧！工程總經費追加以後大概快要10億，像這樣的案子怎麼可能發生，我跟你一樣很訝異啊！大家要了解，不管是工程會或者是中央各機關，像這件是交通部的工程，而交通部跟工程會本身都有查核小組，也會有採購稽核小組，卻從頭到尾都沒有發現這樣的弊端，採購稽核小組一看也該知道，它買的材料根本就是不合格的嘛！但也不管，最後在整個施工的過程也都沒有人發現。","因為是重大工程，其實在施工過程當中，這些所謂的查核小組就要去看，所以交通部本身也有查核小組會去看，而查核小組列舉了32項缺失，有寫出來，但對於這32項缺失怎麼辦？查核小組的處理竟然是交給交通部備查！我認為這樣的規定必須要改。否則等於主管機關的查核小組查到缺點卻交回給主管機關自己備查，這是球員兼裁判啊！查核小組確實有查到，驗出32項缺失，然後這些缺失後續怎麼改善？有沒有人再去追查？沒有啊！交給交通部備查啦！我覺得工程會對於這樣的工程查核情形……","我們再來看看工程會自己本身的查核，其實工程會人力、物力有限，我看了你們每一年的查核能量，尤其是最近五年，從109年、2018年開始，你們每年大概都查核120件，是不是這樣？這是施工中的部分；稽查件數大概就是指驗收，你們每一年驗收查核大概都是四百三十幾件。但是對於重大工程分類的分類級距，我覺得工程會是不是應該再檢討一下？因為你們將5,000萬以上全部列為一類，量數太大，本席建議應該再評估，把2億元以上的重大工程採購案再特別區分出一個類別，或者彈性調整查核、稽查件數。否則你看，我特別清查了2億以上採購案每年的數量給主委參考，2億以上的重大工程最近幾年可以說是大量增加，增加了三十幾個百分點啊！2021年不到300件，2022年就420件了，去年達到430件。","另外，對於中寮隧道這項工程從頭到尾、施工中都沒有被查核小組抓到，我是覺得非常意外，對於一項公共工程，工程會的查核小組也沒有去看，不曉得是沒有抽到還是怎麼樣的原因，我不曉得。但是針對這項工程，工程會應該去看，為什麼？因為它已經不斷展延工期，預算又追加了三十幾個百分點。在工程會查核小組的查核要點裡面，所謂的異常狀態大概就有這幾點，也就是契約不斷變更，像中寮隧道這一案就是契約不斷變更喔！預算從七億多追加到9.8億啊！追加了三十幾個百分點；然後，完工日期從2018年、2019年延到2020年，這是標準符合查核小組認定的異常狀態啊！你們也沒去看。照理講，你們已經特別列出第三優先查核，因為查核小組的作業辦法二十幾年來都沒有修改，從2002年以來就沒有修改，一直到2023年、去年你們才趕快修改，增加所謂第三優先查核，也就是我所提的，不只整個完工，針對施工過程的重大異常也可以列入稽查，列入所謂的優先查核。隧道工程很重要吧！邊坡安全處理很重要吧！這樣的工程查核竟然漏掉了，今天是被揭發出來，檢調才查到，交通部的查核小組也沒看到啊，工程會的查核小組根本連看也沒有，你們沒有把這項工程列為應該查核的事項嘛！也就是說，對於這起重大而且已經出現異常的施工狀態，竟然也沒有去查，而且是個重大工程喔！幾乎快要10億啊！","最離譜的是這項偷工減料的工程竟然還得到工安獎，勞動部人員在這裡嗎？這種工程也得獎，岩栓偷工減料，導致工人施工簡直是在玩命！這樣也能獲頒工安獎？拜託一下！會撤銷吧？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們會再研究看看，因為這是工程安全評鑑，與品質部分有不同的評估方式。"],["林委員俊憲：但品質就有問題啊！工人在一個很危險的狀態下施工，還可以得工安獎？你要回去研究。"],["鄒署長子廉：是，我們回去研究、檢討，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：好。謝謝主委。","署長，你自己想想你在回答什麼東西。","主席，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝委員。"],["主席：林俊憲委員發言完畢。","請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152086","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152086","tool":"pyannote","id":"152086-pyannote"},"job_id":"bp3cOXNbfy49FdxI","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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00:00:41,901\n結果後來有人檢舉他偷工檢料是2021年檢調就去開發那檢調去查以後這個新聞不知道當時有沒有受到大家的注意一直到前幾天就到我們今年2024年4月26號媒體才報導出檢調去查驗的相關結果這個發現有嚴重的偷工檢料\n\n3\n00:00:50,130 --> 00:01:12,215\n你現在才知道這個新聞嗎?你注意看,檢調查的,第一個,它的那個鹽酸,工程內行的你知道吧?就是它整體一罐酒的部分,要咬住那個山壁,鹽酸裡面只有16支合格,合格率達62%啦。\n\n4\n00:01:13,915 --> 00:01:25,680\n在第二波的隨機選樣,這是隨機抽樣,剪掉去找是亂抽的,抽出來第二次有46.3%是不合格的,你現在知道這個事情嗎?我只看到這個報導才知道。好,再來。\n\n5\n00:01:32,028 --> 00:01:58,067\n後來再去查根據媒體的報導這這麼高的不合格率但是在現場的抽驗你知道我們現場都有監控也有計謀小組等等他那個抽驗結果欄寫的都是臺灣世襲臺灣世襲是監照他現場派一個監照主任監照的規範裡面都是填寫符合\n\n6\n00:02:00,049 --> 00:02:28,417\n所以我不知道他在建造什麼東西他不是一兩根不合格不合格率第一次抽菸有62%兩坡的第二坡有40幾%不合格率同時檢調也在台灣市區的辦公室裡面搜查這個研酸的相關記錄記載發現他這個工程這個工程的檢驗日期竟然是填寫在灌漿日期之前\n\n7\n00:02:29,895 --> 00:02:33,020\n你要知道嘛,你要貫穿下去之後,你不才能去驗,啊不貫穿就去驗好了,你要作弊連日期都寫錯,請問工程會員有沒有進一步去了解這個事情?\n\n8\n00:02:43,398 --> 00:02:57,930\n我們馬上我們已經請同仁進一步去了解這個我第一個壓抑的是這個高工局跟4C兩個部門是我們國內比較嚴謹的一個部門那為什麼還會發生這樣所以我們會詳細的了解一下\n\n9\n00:03:05,442 --> 00:03:23,967\n我們來瞭解為什麼這麼重大的工程挖隧道、空間、包括邊坡這個算重大工程了吧這工程總經費追加以後大概快要10億那其中我們希望說像這樣的案子怎麼可能會發生我跟你一樣很訝異\n\n10\n00:03:26,394 --> 00:03:48,981\n大家要了解喔,不管是工程會,或者是中央各機關啊,像這個是交通部的工程啊,交通部跟工程會本身都有查核小組,也會有採購機核小組嘛,是不是這樣?都從頭到尾沒有發現這樣的弊端啊。採購機核小組你一看就知道啊,他買的那個材料根本就不合格的嘛。\n\n11\n00:03:50,104 --> 00:04:13,296\n也不管啦你最後在整個施工的過程都沒有人發現嘛那因為是重大工程啦所以其實他在施工的過程當中啊這些所謂的查核小組就要去看施工中的查核小組就要去看所以交通部自己本身就用查核小組他要去看查核小組啊他列舉了32項缺失啊有寫出來了那這32項缺失怎麼辦\n\n12\n00:04:18,493 --> 00:04:41,264\n他竟然處理救市啊,交給交通部備查。我認為這樣的規定啊,必須要改啦。你等於主管機關的查核小組,查到了缺點,那交回給主管機關自己備查。你求員兼裁判啊,像他現在鹹鹹的,鹹得30天後缺失啊。\n\n13\n00:04:43,321 --> 00:04:50,346\n然後這些缺失後續怎麼改善?有沒有人再去追查?沒有啊,他就交給交通部備查啦。所以我們工程會對於這樣的一種工程的潮流情形,我覺得\n\n14\n00:05:02,844 --> 00:05:16,832\n我們再來看看那工程會呢自己本身的查核呢其實工程會啊你的任務率有限啊我看你每一年的查核能量尤其最近5年啊例如從109年開始啦2018年你每一年大概都查核120件\n\n15\n00:05:20,222 --> 00:05:39,818\n是不是這樣?就所謂施工中啦。那積查件數大概就驗收啦。驗收你每一年,驗收那個查法大概都430幾件啦。但是啊,我們的重大工程分類,我就覺得你這個分類急劇啊,工程會是不是應該再檢討一下?因為你5000萬以上全部列為一類,那那個量數太大了。\n\n16\n00:05:40,819 --> 00:05:52,020\n本席建議應該要再評估把兩億元以上的重大工程採購案再把它特別區分成一個類別﹖或者是你要彈性調整查核、稽查的件數﹖\n\n17\n00:05:54,076 --> 00:05:54,256\n林俊憲議員\n\n18\n00:06:19,207 --> 00:06:30,035\n這個中寮隧道這個工程從頭到尾在施工中都沒有被查爾小組抓到我是覺得非常意外第一個公共工程工程會的查爾小組也沒有去看\n\n19\n00:06:31,718 --> 00:06:31,838\n林俊憲\n\n20\n00:06:51,280 --> 00:07:06,633\n就契約不斷變更,像中寮隧道這個,他這個就契約不斷變更,他預算從7億多追加到9.8億,追加了30幾%然後完工日期從2018年、2019年、2020年,這標準的符合我們查二小組的異常狀態,你們也沒有去看了\n\n21\n00:07:15,612 --> 00:07:42,374\n照理講你特別列出一個第三優先查核因為我們查核小組的行事辦法21年都20幾年都沒有修改從2002年都沒有修改一直到2023年去年你再趕快把它修改你把它增加這個所謂第三優先就是我提的它整個完工啦整個施工過程有重大的異常你也可以把它列為稽查列為所謂優先查核隧道工程很重要吧\n\n22\n00:07:43,433 --> 00:07:43,653\n主席\n\n23\n00:08:01,721 --> 00:08:28,495\n也就是說這是個重大但是已經出現異常的施工狀態竟然也沒有去查而且是個重大工程幾乎快要失憶啊那同時最離譜的是這個偷工減料的工程竟然還得到公安獎勞動部你知道嗎勞動部啊這個也得獎啊那個研酸偷工減料啦工人在施工啦減得在玩命欸這樣還能得到公安獎你要不要拜託這個會撤銷吧\n\n24\n00:08:33,564 --> 00:08:58,177\n發言委員,我們回去再研究看看,因為這是工程的安全,那品質不同的評估的方式啊這品質的有問題啊,工人在一個很危險的狀態下施工,一個人得公安獎啊,你要回去研究?是,我們要回去再檢討,謝謝委員好,謝謝主委啊,然後你再回答,再想想再回答什麼東西好,來主席,謝謝啦,抱歉\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n569\t24187\t謝主席,本席邀請我們工程會的吳主委。請吳主委。喂,你好。吳主委,你有看到這個新聞嗎?就是我們國道3號的田寮還有中寮隧道。有看到。這個工程應該是2019年要完工,結果它拖到2020年才完工嘛。\n25353\t41901\t結果後來有人檢舉他偷工檢料是2021年檢調就去開發那檢調去查以後這個新聞不知道當時有沒有受到大家的注意一直到前幾天就到我們今年2024年4月26號媒體才報導出檢調去查驗的相關結果這個發現有嚴重的偷工檢料\n50130\t72215\t你現在才知道這個新聞嗎?你注意看,檢調查的,第一個,它的那個鹽酸,工程內行的你知道吧?就是它整體一罐酒的部分,要咬住那個山壁,鹽酸裡面只有16支合格,合格率達62%啦。\n73915\t85680\t在第二波的隨機選樣,這是隨機抽樣,剪掉去找是亂抽的,抽出來第二次有46.3%是不合格的,你現在知道這個事情嗎?我只看到這個報導才知道。好,再來。\n92028\t118067\t後來再去查根據媒體的報導這這麼高的不合格率但是在現場的抽驗你知道我們現場都有監控也有計謀小組等等他那個抽驗結果欄寫的都是臺灣世襲臺灣世襲是監照他現場派一個監照主任監照的規範裡面都是填寫符合\n120049\t148417\t所以我不知道他在建造什麼東西他不是一兩根不合格不合格率第一次抽菸有62%兩坡的第二坡有40幾%不合格率同時檢調也在台灣市區的辦公室裡面搜查這個研酸的相關記錄記載發現他這個工程這個工程的檢驗日期竟然是填寫在灌漿日期之前\n149895\t153020\t你要知道嘛,你要貫穿下去之後,你不才能去驗,啊不貫穿就去驗好了,你要作弊連日期都寫錯,請問工程會員有沒有進一步去了解這個事情?\n163398\t177930\t我們馬上我們已經請同仁進一步去了解這個我第一個壓抑的是這個高工局跟4C兩個部門是我們國內比較嚴謹的一個部門那為什麼還會發生這樣所以我們會詳細的了解一下\n185442\t203967\t我們來瞭解為什麼這麼重大的工程挖隧道、空間、包括邊坡這個算重大工程了吧這工程總經費追加以後大概快要10億那其中我們希望說像這樣的案子怎麼可能會發生我跟你一樣很訝異\n206394\t228981\t大家要了解喔,不管是工程會,或者是中央各機關啊,像這個是交通部的工程啊,交通部跟工程會本身都有查核小組,也會有採購機核小組嘛,是不是這樣?都從頭到尾沒有發現這樣的弊端啊。採購機核小組你一看就知道啊,他買的那個材料根本就不合格的嘛。\n230104\t253296\t也不管啦你最後在整個施工的過程都沒有人發現嘛那因為是重大工程啦所以其實他在施工的過程當中啊這些所謂的查核小組就要去看施工中的查核小組就要去看所以交通部自己本身就用查核小組他要去看查核小組啊他列舉了32項缺失啊有寫出來了那這32項缺失怎麼辦\n258493\t281264\t他竟然處理救市啊,交給交通部備查。我認為這樣的規定啊,必須要改啦。你等於主管機關的查核小組,查到了缺點,那交回給主管機關自己備查。你求員兼裁判啊,像他現在鹹鹹的,鹹得30天後缺失啊。\n283321\t290346\t然後這些缺失後續怎麼改善?有沒有人再去追查?沒有啊,他就交給交通部備查啦。所以我們工程會對於這樣的一種工程的潮流情形,我覺得\n302844\t316832\t我們再來看看那工程會呢自己本身的查核呢其實工程會啊你的任務率有限啊我看你每一年的查核能量尤其最近5年啊例如從109年開始啦2018年你每一年大概都查核120件\n320222\t339818\t是不是這樣?就所謂施工中啦。那積查件數大概就驗收啦。驗收你每一年,驗收那個查法大概都430幾件啦。但是啊,我們的重大工程分類,我就覺得你這個分類急劇啊,工程會是不是應該再檢討一下?因為你5000萬以上全部列為一類,那那個量數太大了。\n340819\t352020\t本席建議應該要再評估把兩億元以上的重大工程採購案再把它特別區分成一個類別﹖或者是你要彈性調整查核、稽查的件數﹖\n354076\t354256\t林俊憲議員\n379207\t390035\t這個中寮隧道這個工程從頭到尾在施工中都沒有被查爾小組抓到我是覺得非常意外第一個公共工程工程會的查爾小組也沒有去看\n391718\t391838\t林俊憲\n411280\t426633\t就契約不斷變更,像中寮隧道這個,他這個就契約不斷變更,他預算從7億多追加到9.8億,追加了30幾%然後完工日期從2018年、2019年、2020年,這標準的符合我們查二小組的異常狀態,你們也沒有去看了\n435612\t462374\t照理講你特別列出一個第三優先查核因為我們查核小組的行事辦法21年都20幾年都沒有修改從2002年都沒有修改一直到2023年去年你再趕快把它修改你把它增加這個所謂第三優先就是我提的它整個完工啦整個施工過程有重大的異常你也可以把它列為稽查列為所謂優先查核隧道工程很重要吧\n463433\t463653\t主席\n481721\t508495\t也就是說這是個重大但是已經出現異常的施工狀態竟然也沒有去查而且是個重大工程幾乎快要失憶啊那同時最離譜的是這個偷工減料的工程竟然還得到公安獎勞動部你知道嗎勞動部啊這個也得獎啊那個研酸偷工減料啦工人在施工啦減得在玩命欸這樣還能得到公安獎你要不要拜託這個會撤銷吧\n513564\t538177\t發言委員,我們回去再研究看看,因為這是工程的安全,那品質不同的評估的方式啊這品質的有問題啊,工人在一個很危險的狀態下施工,一個人得公安獎啊,你要回去研究?是,我們要回去再檢討,謝謝委員好,謝謝主委啊,然後你再回答,再想想再回答什麼東西好,來主席,謝謝啦,抱歉\n","txt":"謝主席,本席邀請我們工程會的吳主委。請吳主委。喂,你好。吳主委,你有看到這個新聞嗎?就是我們國道3號的田寮還有中寮隧道。有看到。這個工程應該是2019年要完工,結果它拖到2020年才完工嘛。\n結果後來有人檢舉他偷工檢料是2021年檢調就去開發那檢調去查以後這個新聞不知道當時有沒有受到大家的注意一直到前幾天就到我們今年2024年4月26號媒體才報導出檢調去查驗的相關結果這個發現有嚴重的偷工檢料\n你現在才知道這個新聞嗎?你注意看,檢調查的,第一個,它的那個鹽酸,工程內行的你知道吧?就是它整體一罐酒的部分,要咬住那個山壁,鹽酸裡面只有16支合格,合格率達62%啦。\n在第二波的隨機選樣,這是隨機抽樣,剪掉去找是亂抽的,抽出來第二次有46.3%是不合格的,你現在知道這個事情嗎?我只看到這個報導才知道。好,再來。\n後來再去查根據媒體的報導這這麼高的不合格率但是在現場的抽驗你知道我們現場都有監控也有計謀小組等等他那個抽驗結果欄寫的都是臺灣世襲臺灣世襲是監照他現場派一個監照主任監照的規範裡面都是填寫符合\n所以我不知道他在建造什麼東西他不是一兩根不合格不合格率第一次抽菸有62%兩坡的第二坡有40幾%不合格率同時檢調也在台灣市區的辦公室裡面搜查這個研酸的相關記錄記載發現他這個工程這個工程的檢驗日期竟然是填寫在灌漿日期之前\n你要知道嘛,你要貫穿下去之後,你不才能去驗,啊不貫穿就去驗好了,你要作弊連日期都寫錯,請問工程會員有沒有進一步去了解這個事情?\n我們馬上我們已經請同仁進一步去了解這個我第一個壓抑的是這個高工局跟4C兩個部門是我們國內比較嚴謹的一個部門那為什麼還會發生這樣所以我們會詳細的了解一下\n我們來瞭解為什麼這麼重大的工程挖隧道、空間、包括邊坡這個算重大工程了吧這工程總經費追加以後大概快要10億那其中我們希望說像這樣的案子怎麼可能會發生我跟你一樣很訝異\n大家要了解喔,不管是工程會,或者是中央各機關啊,像這個是交通部的工程啊,交通部跟工程會本身都有查核小組,也會有採購機核小組嘛,是不是這樣?都從頭到尾沒有發現這樣的弊端啊。採購機核小組你一看就知道啊,他買的那個材料根本就不合格的嘛。\n也不管啦你最後在整個施工的過程都沒有人發現嘛那因為是重大工程啦所以其實他在施工的過程當中啊這些所謂的查核小組就要去看施工中的查核小組就要去看所以交通部自己本身就用查核小組他要去看查核小組啊他列舉了32項缺失啊有寫出來了那這32項缺失怎麼辦\n他竟然處理救市啊,交給交通部備查。我認為這樣的規定啊,必須要改啦。你等於主管機關的查核小組,查到了缺點,那交回給主管機關自己備查。你求員兼裁判啊,像他現在鹹鹹的,鹹得30天後缺失啊。\n然後這些缺失後續怎麼改善?有沒有人再去追查?沒有啊,他就交給交通部備查啦。所以我們工程會對於這樣的一種工程的潮流情形,我覺得\n我們再來看看那工程會呢自己本身的查核呢其實工程會啊你的任務率有限啊我看你每一年的查核能量尤其最近5年啊例如從109年開始啦2018年你每一年大概都查核120件\n是不是這樣?就所謂施工中啦。那積查件數大概就驗收啦。驗收你每一年,驗收那個查法大概都430幾件啦。但是啊,我們的重大工程分類,我就覺得你這個分類急劇啊,工程會是不是應該再檢討一下?因為你5000萬以上全部列為一類,那那個量數太大了。\n本席建議應該要再評估把兩億元以上的重大工程採購案再把它特別區分成一個類別﹖或者是你要彈性調整查核、稽查的件數﹖\n林俊憲議員\n這個中寮隧道這個工程從頭到尾在施工中都沒有被查爾小組抓到我是覺得非常意外第一個公共工程工程會的查爾小組也沒有去看\n林俊憲\n就契約不斷變更,像中寮隧道這個,他這個就契約不斷變更,他預算從7億多追加到9.8億,追加了30幾%然後完工日期從2018年、2019年、2020年,這標準的符合我們查二小組的異常狀態,你們也沒有去看了\n照理講你特別列出一個第三優先查核因為我們查核小組的行事辦法21年都20幾年都沒有修改從2002年都沒有修改一直到2023年去年你再趕快把它修改你把它增加這個所謂第三優先就是我提的它整個完工啦整個施工過程有重大的異常你也可以把它列為稽查列為所謂優先查核隧道工程很重要吧\n主席\n也就是說這是個重大但是已經出現異常的施工狀態竟然也沒有去查而且是個重大工程幾乎快要失憶啊那同時最離譜的是這個偷工減料的工程竟然還得到公安獎勞動部你知道嗎勞動部啊這個也得獎啊那個研酸偷工減料啦工人在施工啦減得在玩命欸這樣還能得到公安獎你要不要拜託這個會撤銷吧\n發言委員,我們回去再研究看看,因為這是工程的安全,那品質不同的評估的方式啊這品質的有問題啊,工人在一個很危險的狀態下施工,一個人得公安獎啊,你要回去研究?是,我們要回去再檢討,謝謝委員好,謝謝主委啊,然後你再回答,再想想再回答什麼東西好,來主席,謝謝啦,抱歉\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.569 --> 00:24.187\n謝主席,本席邀請我們工程會的吳主委。請吳主委。喂,你好。吳主委,你有看到這個新聞嗎?就是我們國道3號的田寮還有中寮隧道。有看到。這個工程應該是2019年要完工,結果它拖到2020年才完工嘛。\n\n00:25.353 --> 00:41.901\n結果後來有人檢舉他偷工檢料是2021年檢調就去開發那檢調去查以後這個新聞不知道當時有沒有受到大家的注意一直到前幾天就到我們今年2024年4月26號媒體才報導出檢調去查驗的相關結果這個發現有嚴重的偷工檢料\n\n00:50.130 --> 01:12.215\n你現在才知道這個新聞嗎?你注意看,檢調查的,第一個,它的那個鹽酸,工程內行的你知道吧?就是它整體一罐酒的部分,要咬住那個山壁,鹽酸裡面只有16支合格,合格率達62%啦。\n\n01:13.915 --> 01:25.680\n在第二波的隨機選樣,這是隨機抽樣,剪掉去找是亂抽的,抽出來第二次有46.3%是不合格的,你現在知道這個事情嗎?我只看到這個報導才知道。好,再來。\n\n01:32.028 --> 01:58.067\n後來再去查根據媒體的報導這這麼高的不合格率但是在現場的抽驗你知道我們現場都有監控也有計謀小組等等他那個抽驗結果欄寫的都是臺灣世襲臺灣世襲是監照他現場派一個監照主任監照的規範裡面都是填寫符合\n\n02:00.049 --> 02:28.417\n所以我不知道他在建造什麼東西他不是一兩根不合格不合格率第一次抽菸有62%兩坡的第二坡有40幾%不合格率同時檢調也在台灣市區的辦公室裡面搜查這個研酸的相關記錄記載發現他這個工程這個工程的檢驗日期竟然是填寫在灌漿日期之前\n\n02:29.895 --> 02:33.020\n你要知道嘛,你要貫穿下去之後,你不才能去驗,啊不貫穿就去驗好了,你要作弊連日期都寫錯,請問工程會員有沒有進一步去了解這個事情?\n\n02:43.398 --> 02:57.930\n我們馬上我們已經請同仁進一步去了解這個我第一個壓抑的是這個高工局跟4C兩個部門是我們國內比較嚴謹的一個部門那為什麼還會發生這樣所以我們會詳細的了解一下\n\n03:05.442 --> 03:23.967\n我們來瞭解為什麼這麼重大的工程挖隧道、空間、包括邊坡這個算重大工程了吧這工程總經費追加以後大概快要10億那其中我們希望說像這樣的案子怎麼可能會發生我跟你一樣很訝異\n\n03:26.394 --> 03:48.981\n大家要了解喔,不管是工程會,或者是中央各機關啊,像這個是交通部的工程啊,交通部跟工程會本身都有查核小組,也會有採購機核小組嘛,是不是這樣?都從頭到尾沒有發現這樣的弊端啊。採購機核小組你一看就知道啊,他買的那個材料根本就不合格的嘛。\n\n03:50.104 --> 04:13.296\n也不管啦你最後在整個施工的過程都沒有人發現嘛那因為是重大工程啦所以其實他在施工的過程當中啊這些所謂的查核小組就要去看施工中的查核小組就要去看所以交通部自己本身就用查核小組他要去看查核小組啊他列舉了32項缺失啊有寫出來了那這32項缺失怎麼辦\n\n04:18.493 --> 04:41.264\n他竟然處理救市啊,交給交通部備查。我認為這樣的規定啊,必須要改啦。你等於主管機關的查核小組,查到了缺點,那交回給主管機關自己備查。你求員兼裁判啊,像他現在鹹鹹的,鹹得30天後缺失啊。\n\n04:43.321 --> 04:50.346\n然後這些缺失後續怎麼改善?有沒有人再去追查?沒有啊,他就交給交通部備查啦。所以我們工程會對於這樣的一種工程的潮流情形,我覺得\n\n05:02.844 --> 05:16.832\n我們再來看看那工程會呢自己本身的查核呢其實工程會啊你的任務率有限啊我看你每一年的查核能量尤其最近5年啊例如從109年開始啦2018年你每一年大概都查核120件\n\n05:20.222 --> 05:39.818\n是不是這樣?就所謂施工中啦。那積查件數大概就驗收啦。驗收你每一年,驗收那個查法大概都430幾件啦。但是啊,我們的重大工程分類,我就覺得你這個分類急劇啊,工程會是不是應該再檢討一下?因為你5000萬以上全部列為一類,那那個量數太大了。\n\n05:40.819 --> 05:52.020\n本席建議應該要再評估把兩億元以上的重大工程採購案再把它特別區分成一個類別﹖或者是你要彈性調整查核、稽查的件數﹖\n\n05:54.076 --> 05:54.256\n林俊憲議員\n\n06:19.207 --> 06:30.035\n這個中寮隧道這個工程從頭到尾在施工中都沒有被查爾小組抓到我是覺得非常意外第一個公共工程工程會的查爾小組也沒有去看\n\n06:31.718 --> 06:31.838\n林俊憲\n\n06:51.280 --> 07:06.633\n就契約不斷變更,像中寮隧道這個,他這個就契約不斷變更,他預算從7億多追加到9.8億,追加了30幾%然後完工日期從2018年、2019年、2020年,這標準的符合我們查二小組的異常狀態,你們也沒有去看了\n\n07:15.612 --> 07:42.374\n照理講你特別列出一個第三優先查核因為我們查核小組的行事辦法21年都20幾年都沒有修改從2002年都沒有修改一直到2023年去年你再趕快把它修改你把它增加這個所謂第三優先就是我提的它整個完工啦整個施工過程有重大的異常你也可以把它列為稽查列為所謂優先查核隧道工程很重要吧\n\n07:43.433 --> 07:43.653\n主席\n\n08:01.721 --> 08:28.495\n也就是說這是個重大但是已經出現異常的施工狀態竟然也沒有去查而且是個重大工程幾乎快要失憶啊那同時最離譜的是這個偷工減料的工程竟然還得到公安獎勞動部你知道嗎勞動部啊這個也得獎啊那個研酸偷工減料啦工人在施工啦減得在玩命欸這樣還能得到公安獎你要不要拜託這個會撤銷吧\n\n08:33.564 --> 08:58.177\n發言委員,我們回去再研究看看,因為這是工程的安全,那品質不同的評估的方式啊這品質的有問題啊,工人在一個很危險的狀態下施工,一個人得公安獎啊,你要回去研究?是,我們要回去再檢討,謝謝委員好,謝謝主委啊,然後你再回答,再想想再回答什麼東西好,來主席,謝謝啦,抱歉\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.569,"end":24.187,"text":"謝主席,本席邀請我們工程會的吳主委。請吳主委。喂,你好。吳主委,你有看到這個新聞嗎?就是我們國道3號的田寮還有中寮隧道。有看到。這個工程應該是2019年要完工,結果它拖到2020年才完工嘛。"},{"start":25.353,"end":41.901,"text":"結果後來有人檢舉他偷工檢料是2021年檢調就去開發那檢調去查以後這個新聞不知道當時有沒有受到大家的注意一直到前幾天就到我們今年2024年4月26號媒體才報導出檢調去查驗的相關結果這個發現有嚴重的偷工檢料"},{"start":50.13,"end":72.215,"text":"你現在才知道這個新聞嗎?你注意看,檢調查的,第一個,它的那個鹽酸,工程內行的你知道吧?就是它整體一罐酒的部分,要咬住那個山壁,鹽酸裡面只有16支合格,合格率達62%啦。"},{"start":73.915,"end":85.68,"text":"在第二波的隨機選樣,這是隨機抽樣,剪掉去找是亂抽的,抽出來第二次有46.3%是不合格的,你現在知道這個事情嗎?我只看到這個報導才知道。好,再來。"},{"start":92.028,"end":118.067,"text":"後來再去查根據媒體的報導這這麼高的不合格率但是在現場的抽驗你知道我們現場都有監控也有計謀小組等等他那個抽驗結果欄寫的都是臺灣世襲臺灣世襲是監照他現場派一個監照主任監照的規範裡面都是填寫符合"},{"start":120.049,"end":148.417,"text":"所以我不知道他在建造什麼東西他不是一兩根不合格不合格率第一次抽菸有62%兩坡的第二坡有40幾%不合格率同時檢調也在台灣市區的辦公室裡面搜查這個研酸的相關記錄記載發現他這個工程這個工程的檢驗日期竟然是填寫在灌漿日期之前"},{"start":149.895,"end":153.02,"text":"你要知道嘛,你要貫穿下去之後,你不才能去驗,啊不貫穿就去驗好了,你要作弊連日期都寫錯,請問工程會員有沒有進一步去了解這個事情?"},{"start":163.398,"end":177.93,"text":"我們馬上我們已經請同仁進一步去了解這個我第一個壓抑的是這個高工局跟4C兩個部門是我們國內比較嚴謹的一個部門那為什麼還會發生這樣所以我們會詳細的了解一下"},{"start":185.442,"end":203.967,"text":"我們來瞭解為什麼這麼重大的工程挖隧道、空間、包括邊坡這個算重大工程了吧這工程總經費追加以後大概快要10億那其中我們希望說像這樣的案子怎麼可能會發生我跟你一樣很訝異"},{"start":206.394,"end":228.981,"text":"大家要了解喔,不管是工程會,或者是中央各機關啊,像這個是交通部的工程啊,交通部跟工程會本身都有查核小組,也會有採購機核小組嘛,是不是這樣?都從頭到尾沒有發現這樣的弊端啊。採購機核小組你一看就知道啊,他買的那個材料根本就不合格的嘛。"},{"start":230.104,"end":253.296,"text":"也不管啦你最後在整個施工的過程都沒有人發現嘛那因為是重大工程啦所以其實他在施工的過程當中啊這些所謂的查核小組就要去看施工中的查核小組就要去看所以交通部自己本身就用查核小組他要去看查核小組啊他列舉了32項缺失啊有寫出來了那這32項缺失怎麼辦"},{"start":258.493,"end":281.264,"text":"他竟然處理救市啊,交給交通部備查。我認為這樣的規定啊,必須要改啦。你等於主管機關的查核小組,查到了缺點,那交回給主管機關自己備查。你求員兼裁判啊,像他現在鹹鹹的,鹹得30天後缺失啊。"},{"start":283.321,"end":290.346,"text":"然後這些缺失後續怎麼改善?有沒有人再去追查?沒有啊,他就交給交通部備查啦。所以我們工程會對於這樣的一種工程的潮流情形,我覺得"},{"start":302.844,"end":316.832,"text":"我們再來看看那工程會呢自己本身的查核呢其實工程會啊你的任務率有限啊我看你每一年的查核能量尤其最近5年啊例如從109年開始啦2018年你每一年大概都查核120件"},{"start":320.222,"end":339.818,"text":"是不是這樣?就所謂施工中啦。那積查件數大概就驗收啦。驗收你每一年,驗收那個查法大概都430幾件啦。但是啊,我們的重大工程分類,我就覺得你這個分類急劇啊,工程會是不是應該再檢討一下?因為你5000萬以上全部列為一類,那那個量數太大了。"},{"start":340.819,"end":352.02,"text":"本席建議應該要再評估把兩億元以上的重大工程採購案再把它特別區分成一個類別﹖或者是你要彈性調整查核、稽查的件數﹖"},{"start":354.076,"end":354.256,"text":"林俊憲議員"},{"start":379.207,"end":390.035,"text":"這個中寮隧道這個工程從頭到尾在施工中都沒有被查爾小組抓到我是覺得非常意外第一個公共工程工程會的查爾小組也沒有去看"},{"start":391.718,"end":391.838,"text":"林俊憲"},{"start":411.28,"end":426.633,"text":"就契約不斷變更,像中寮隧道這個,他這個就契約不斷變更,他預算從7億多追加到9.8億,追加了30幾%然後完工日期從2018年、2019年、2020年,這標準的符合我們查二小組的異常狀態,你們也沒有去看了"},{"start":435.612,"end":462.374,"text":"照理講你特別列出一個第三優先查核因為我們查核小組的行事辦法21年都20幾年都沒有修改從2002年都沒有修改一直到2023年去年你再趕快把它修改你把它增加這個所謂第三優先就是我提的它整個完工啦整個施工過程有重大的異常你也可以把它列為稽查列為所謂優先查核隧道工程很重要吧"},{"start":463.433,"end":463.653,"text":"主席"},{"start":481.721,"end":508.495,"text":"也就是說這是個重大但是已經出現異常的施工狀態竟然也沒有去查而且是個重大工程幾乎快要失憶啊那同時最離譜的是這個偷工減料的工程竟然還得到公安獎勞動部你知道嗎勞動部啊這個也得獎啊那個研酸偷工減料啦工人在施工啦減得在玩命欸這樣還能得到公安獎你要不要拜託這個會撤銷吧"},{"start":513.564,"end":538.177,"text":"發言委員,我們回去再研究看看,因為這是工程的安全,那品質不同的評估的方式啊這品質的有問題啊,工人在一個很危險的狀態下施工,一個人得公安獎啊,你要回去研究?是,我們要回去再檢討,謝謝委員好,謝謝主委啊,然後你再回答,再想想再回答什麼東西好,來主席,謝謝啦,抱歉"}]}}}}