{"id":152099,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152099","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db193ec7bc6d8035413455ccb8302deb5eb55be169921a0a717ab02743e9e591aec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:39:39 - 11:44:45","影片長度":"00:05:06","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":306,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:44:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:39:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":525,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時39分）主席，有請勞動部職安署署長鄒署長。"],["主席：請鄒署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：署長好。雖然今天報告主題是公共工程的重大職業災害，但公共工程是整個職安保護的一部分嘛！根據職安署的統計數字，我看到蔡英文總統上任前，2015年的重大職災死亡勞工人數是321人，營造業死亡人數是147人；2023年整體死亡人數下降到300人，但營造業增加到151人，平均每2.4天就有1位營造業的勞工死亡。相較於其他產業，營造業所發生的職災死亡事件更多。以111年來說，因為我從你們這邊得到的統計資料只到111年，有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業。總體來看，111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中，有一半是因為墜落而死亡，死亡率占營建業的比例始終居高不下，前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡。但是如果去稽查，署長，你知道發現違失的話最高可以罰多少錢嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，針對違反法令規定第四十三條第一項是罰3到30萬。"],["羅委員智強：3到30萬嘛！但根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一裁罰基準，通常要到第3次才會罰到30萬，對不對？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["羅委員智強：第1次通常是3到6萬，對不對？"],["鄒署長子廉：如果是重大事故就不會，而是直接跳到比較高額的處罰。"],["羅委員智強：我講的是通常啦！"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["羅委員智強：對喔？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["羅委員智強：這就是我有點疑惑的地方，難道一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬，或是罰到30萬？目前你們有沒有打算調整？事實上我們知道，勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠行政機關的強制力量，如果要督促業者做好相關安全工作，有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的督促機制。但以目前來看，3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，職安法修法訂定這3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行，已經10年了，所以我們勞動部也在作內部檢討；外界也認為3到30萬這個range應該再作進一步改善或增加，比如說3到90萬之類的，將額度拉高。但中小型與微型企業的承受程度可能有限，所以對於這個range，我們會作內部討論。我們也希望今年就職安法的修法有所進展，到時候再請委員多給我們一些協助跟指教。"],["羅委員智強：我還是希望你們署裡要做勞工的後盾，已經不合時宜的裁罰基準其實就要與時俱進，否則的話，勞工就失去這個後盾。","今年初，職安署辦了一場春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災檢查，還將今年定為營造業墜落打擊年。關於營建業，去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數中，墜落災害還是占整體營造業將近70%。我想請問你們今年的目標是什麼？目前稽查量有提升嗎？開罰數量又是多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們的目標是以前三年的數據降30%為目的。在全國職業災害中，墜落大概占5成左右，但營造業的墜落災害占到7成，所以我們將現場開口、護欄沒有做這些作為稽核的重點，並且在今年整體展開。另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報到我們的系統，部會也進行工程查核，詳細數字到3月，是不是容許我們後續再補這份資料給委員參考？"],["羅委員智強：好，麻煩後補過來。"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["羅委員智強：其實我要講的就是，我覺得政府真的就是勞工最重要的後盾，尤其你也看到營造業有職安問題，但實際上我發現這些仍然沒有下除，這一點就代表政府肩膀上的責任還是很重啦！所以我希望勞動部、職安署能夠勇於任事，該改的法規、該改的裁罰基準以及該加強的稽查，可能都務必要努力、全力。以上。"],["鄒署長子廉：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：羅智強委員發言完畢。","現在請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152099","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152099","tool":"pyannote","id":"152099-pyannote"},"job_id":"TbesEMpSuiNwz29K","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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00:01:25,997\n來說因為我看到你們的統計值我這邊得到的資料只有到111年有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業那總體來看111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中有一半是因為墜落而死亡那死亡在營建業比例始終居高不下那前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡那\n\n5\n00:01:27,017 --> 00:01:47,474\n但是如果去稽查,部長、署長你知道,發現違私的話,最高可以罰多少錢嗎?報告委員,我們現在是違反這個法令規定是,只要把6條第一項是3到30萬。3到30萬嘛。那就是說根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一裁罰基準,通常要到第三次才會罰到30萬嘛,對不對?是。\n\n6\n00:01:50,584 --> 00:01:52,485\n一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬或是法到30萬那目前\n\n7\n00:02:12,856 --> 00:02:41,776\n你們怎麼有沒有打算去調整的因為事實上我們知道就是說基本上勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠我們的行政機關的這個強制力量那如果你要督促這個業者能夠去做好所謂的一些相關的安全工作的話有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的一個督促的一個機制但你看目前來看這個3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎\n\n8\n00:02:43,175 --> 00:03:11,835\n跟委員報告這治安法修法這個訂的3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行已經進了10年所以我們勞動部也在做內部檢討因為外界也認為說我們3到30萬這個Range應該在做進步的改善或者增加比如說3到90萬之類的讓這個額度拉高但是對中小型微型的企業它本身程度可能也有限所以那個Range部分我們在內部討論那我們今年也有希望在做那個治安法修法的那個的進展\n\n9\n00:03:13,196 --> 00:03:28,726\n那到時候再請委員再跟我們多協助跟指教我覺得這個還是要希望你們就處理要做勞工的後盾那已經不合時宜的一個裁罰的一個基準其實就要與時俱進否則的話勞工就失去這個後盾\n\n10\n00:03:29,566 --> 00:03:56,247\n今年初職安署辦了一場所謂的春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災要今年定為營造業墜落打擊年那針對營建業部分的話那麼去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數還是墜落災害佔整體營造業將近70%那我想請問你今年的目標是什麼那目前稽查量有提升嗎開發數量有多少\n\n11\n00:03:58,571 --> 00:04:17,444\n報告委員,我們的目標是用前三年的數據再做30%,使用降30%為目的。全國職業災害墜落大概是5成左右,但是營造業的墜落災害是佔到7成。所以我們認為針對現場的開口,護欄沒有做,但是當作我們集合的重點,所以我們今年就整理做展開。\n\n12\n00:04:18,064 --> 00:04:36,897\n另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報我們系統裡面還有報告部會裡面的工程查也做進行那這個詳細數字因為現在加入3月我們是不是容許我們在後期補給這個資料給委員參考麻煩後補過來其實整個我要講就是說因為真的我覺得政府就是我們勞工最重要的後盾\n\n13\n00:04:37,697 --> 00:04:37,717\n謝謝委員\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1015\t4550\t主席有請勞動部職安署署長周署長\n12423\t32483\t委員好 署長好雖然今天報告主題是公共工程的重大職業災害但公共工程是整個職安保護的一部分根據職安署的統計數字我看到蔡英文總統上任前2015年的重大職災死亡勞工人數是321人營造業死亡是147人\n36627\t55805\t那2023年整體死亡人數是下降到300人但營造業增加到151人平均每2.4天就有一位營造業的勞工死亡那相較於其他的產業營造業所發生的職災死亡事件更多那以111年\n58927\t85997\t來說因為我看到你們的統計值我這邊得到的資料只有到111年有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業那總體來看111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中有一半是因為墜落而死亡那死亡在營建業比例始終居高不下那前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡那\n87017\t107474\t但是如果去稽查,部長、署長你知道,發現違私的話,最高可以罰多少錢嗎?報告委員,我們現在是違反這個法令規定是,只要把6條第一項是3到30萬。3到30萬嘛。那就是說根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一裁罰基準,通常要到第三次才會罰到30萬嘛,對不對?是。\n110584\t112485\t一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬或是法到30萬那目前\n132856\t161776\t你們怎麼有沒有打算去調整的因為事實上我們知道就是說基本上勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠我們的行政機關的這個強制力量那如果你要督促這個業者能夠去做好所謂的一些相關的安全工作的話有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的一個督促的一個機制但你看目前來看這個3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎\n163175\t191835\t跟委員報告這治安法修法這個訂的3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行已經進了10年所以我們勞動部也在做內部檢討因為外界也認為說我們3到30萬這個Range應該在做進步的改善或者增加比如說3到90萬之類的讓這個額度拉高但是對中小型微型的企業它本身程度可能也有限所以那個Range部分我們在內部討論那我們今年也有希望在做那個治安法修法的那個的進展\n193196\t208726\t那到時候再請委員再跟我們多協助跟指教我覺得這個還是要希望你們就處理要做勞工的後盾那已經不合時宜的一個裁罰的一個基準其實就要與時俱進否則的話勞工就失去這個後盾\n209566\t236247\t今年初職安署辦了一場所謂的春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災要今年定為營造業墜落打擊年那針對營建業部分的話那麼去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數還是墜落災害佔整體營造業將近70%那我想請問你今年的目標是什麼那目前稽查量有提升嗎開發數量有多少\n238571\t257444\t報告委員,我們的目標是用前三年的數據再做30%,使用降30%為目的。全國職業災害墜落大概是5成左右,但是營造業的墜落災害是佔到7成。所以我們認為針對現場的開口,護欄沒有做,但是當作我們集合的重點,所以我們今年就整理做展開。\n258064\t276897\t另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報我們系統裡面還有報告部會裡面的工程查也做進行那這個詳細數字因為現在加入3月我們是不是容許我們在後期補給這個資料給委員參考麻煩後補過來其實整個我要講就是說因為真的我覺得政府就是我們勞工最重要的後盾\n277697\t277717\t謝謝委員\n","txt":"主席有請勞動部職安署署長周署長\n委員好 署長好雖然今天報告主題是公共工程的重大職業災害但公共工程是整個職安保護的一部分根據職安署的統計數字我看到蔡英文總統上任前2015年的重大職災死亡勞工人數是321人營造業死亡是147人\n那2023年整體死亡人數是下降到300人但營造業增加到151人平均每2.4天就有一位營造業的勞工死亡那相較於其他的產業營造業所發生的職災死亡事件更多那以111年\n來說因為我看到你們的統計值我這邊得到的資料只有到111年有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業那總體來看111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中有一半是因為墜落而死亡那死亡在營建業比例始終居高不下那前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡那\n但是如果去稽查,部長、署長你知道,發現違私的話,最高可以罰多少錢嗎?報告委員,我們現在是違反這個法令規定是,只要把6條第一項是3到30萬。3到30萬嘛。那就是說根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一裁罰基準,通常要到第三次才會罰到30萬嘛,對不對?是。\n一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬或是法到30萬那目前\n你們怎麼有沒有打算去調整的因為事實上我們知道就是說基本上勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠我們的行政機關的這個強制力量那如果你要督促這個業者能夠去做好所謂的一些相關的安全工作的話有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的一個督促的一個機制但你看目前來看這個3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎\n跟委員報告這治安法修法這個訂的3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行已經進了10年所以我們勞動部也在做內部檢討因為外界也認為說我們3到30萬這個Range應該在做進步的改善或者增加比如說3到90萬之類的讓這個額度拉高但是對中小型微型的企業它本身程度可能也有限所以那個Range部分我們在內部討論那我們今年也有希望在做那個治安法修法的那個的進展\n那到時候再請委員再跟我們多協助跟指教我覺得這個還是要希望你們就處理要做勞工的後盾那已經不合時宜的一個裁罰的一個基準其實就要與時俱進否則的話勞工就失去這個後盾\n今年初職安署辦了一場所謂的春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災要今年定為營造業墜落打擊年那針對營建業部分的話那麼去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數還是墜落災害佔整體營造業將近70%那我想請問你今年的目標是什麼那目前稽查量有提升嗎開發數量有多少\n報告委員,我們的目標是用前三年的數據再做30%,使用降30%為目的。全國職業災害墜落大概是5成左右,但是營造業的墜落災害是佔到7成。所以我們認為針對現場的開口,護欄沒有做,但是當作我們集合的重點,所以我們今年就整理做展開。\n另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報我們系統裡面還有報告部會裡面的工程查也做進行那這個詳細數字因為現在加入3月我們是不是容許我們在後期補給這個資料給委員參考麻煩後補過來其實整個我要講就是說因為真的我覺得政府就是我們勞工最重要的後盾\n謝謝委員\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.015 --> 00:04.550\n主席有請勞動部職安署署長周署長\n\n00:12.423 --> 00:32.483\n委員好署長好雖然今天報告主題是公共工程的重大職業災害但公共工程是整個職安保護的一部分根據職安署的統計數字我看到蔡英文總統上任前2015年的重大職災死亡勞工人數是321人營造業死亡是147人\n\n00:36.627 --> 00:55.805\n那2023年整體死亡人數是下降到300人但營造業增加到151人平均每2.4天就有一位營造業的勞工死亡那相較於其他的產業營造業所發生的職災死亡事件更多那以111年\n\n00:58.927 --> 01:25.997\n來說因為我看到你們的統計值我這邊得到的資料只有到111年有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業那總體來看111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中有一半是因為墜落而死亡那死亡在營建業比例始終居高不下那前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡那\n\n01:27.017 --> 01:47.474\n但是如果去稽查,部長、署長你知道,發現違私的話,最高可以罰多少錢嗎?報告委員,我們現在是違反這個法令規定是,只要把6條第一項是3到30萬。3到30萬嘛。那就是說根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一裁罰基準,通常要到第三次才會罰到30萬嘛,對不對?是。\n\n01:50.584 --> 01:52.485\n一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬或是法到30萬那目前\n\n02:12.856 --> 02:41.776\n你們怎麼有沒有打算去調整的因為事實上我們知道就是說基本上勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠我們的行政機關的這個強制力量那如果你要督促這個業者能夠去做好所謂的一些相關的安全工作的話有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的一個督促的一個機制但你看目前來看這個3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎\n\n02:43.175 --> 03:11.835\n跟委員報告這治安法修法這個訂的3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行已經進了10年所以我們勞動部也在做內部檢討因為外界也認為說我們3到30萬這個Range應該在做進步的改善或者增加比如說3到90萬之類的讓這個額度拉高但是對中小型微型的企業它本身程度可能也有限所以那個Range部分我們在內部討論那我們今年也有希望在做那個治安法修法的那個的進展\n\n03:13.196 --> 03:28.726\n那到時候再請委員再跟我們多協助跟指教我覺得這個還是要希望你們就處理要做勞工的後盾那已經不合時宜的一個裁罰的一個基準其實就要與時俱進否則的話勞工就失去這個後盾\n\n03:29.566 --> 03:56.247\n今年初職安署辦了一場所謂的春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災要今年定為營造業墜落打擊年那針對營建業部分的話那麼去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數還是墜落災害佔整體營造業將近70%那我想請問你今年的目標是什麼那目前稽查量有提升嗎開發數量有多少\n\n03:58.571 --> 04:17.444\n報告委員,我們的目標是用前三年的數據再做30%,使用降30%為目的。全國職業災害墜落大概是5成左右,但是營造業的墜落災害是佔到7成。所以我們認為針對現場的開口,護欄沒有做,但是當作我們集合的重點,所以我們今年就整理做展開。\n\n04:18.064 --> 04:36.897\n另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報我們系統裡面還有報告部會裡面的工程查也做進行那這個詳細數字因為現在加入3月我們是不是容許我們在後期補給這個資料給委員參考麻煩後補過來其實整個我要講就是說因為真的我覺得政府就是我們勞工最重要的後盾\n\n04:37.697 --> 04:37.717\n謝謝委員\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.015,"end":4.55,"text":"主席有請勞動部職安署署長周署長"},{"start":12.423,"end":32.483,"text":"委員好 署長好雖然今天報告主題是公共工程的重大職業災害但公共工程是整個職安保護的一部分根據職安署的統計數字我看到蔡英文總統上任前2015年的重大職災死亡勞工人數是321人營造業死亡是147人"},{"start":36.627,"end":55.805,"text":"那2023年整體死亡人數是下降到300人但營造業增加到151人平均每2.4天就有一位營造業的勞工死亡那相較於其他的產業營造業所發生的職災死亡事件更多那以111年"},{"start":58.927,"end":85.997,"text":"來說因為我看到你們的統計值我這邊得到的資料只有到111年有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業那總體來看111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中有一半是因為墜落而死亡那死亡在營建業比例始終居高不下那前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡那"},{"start":87.017,"end":107.474,"text":"但是如果去稽查,部長、署長你知道,發現違私的話,最高可以罰多少錢嗎?報告委員,我們現在是違反這個法令規定是,只要把6條第一項是3到30萬。3到30萬嘛。那就是說根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一裁罰基準,通常要到第三次才會罰到30萬嘛,對不對?是。"},{"start":110.584,"end":112.485,"text":"一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬或是法到30萬那目前"},{"start":132.856,"end":161.776,"text":"你們怎麼有沒有打算去調整的因為事實上我們知道就是說基本上勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠我們的行政機關的這個強制力量那如果你要督促這個業者能夠去做好所謂的一些相關的安全工作的話有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的一個督促的一個機制但你看目前來看這個3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎"},{"start":163.175,"end":191.835,"text":"跟委員報告這治安法修法這個訂的3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行已經進了10年所以我們勞動部也在做內部檢討因為外界也認為說我們3到30萬這個Range應該在做進步的改善或者增加比如說3到90萬之類的讓這個額度拉高但是對中小型微型的企業它本身程度可能也有限所以那個Range部分我們在內部討論那我們今年也有希望在做那個治安法修法的那個的進展"},{"start":193.196,"end":208.726,"text":"那到時候再請委員再跟我們多協助跟指教我覺得這個還是要希望你們就處理要做勞工的後盾那已經不合時宜的一個裁罰的一個基準其實就要與時俱進否則的話勞工就失去這個後盾"},{"start":209.566,"end":236.247,"text":"今年初職安署辦了一場所謂的春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災要今年定為營造業墜落打擊年那針對營建業部分的話那麼去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數還是墜落災害佔整體營造業將近70%那我想請問你今年的目標是什麼那目前稽查量有提升嗎開發數量有多少"},{"start":238.571,"end":257.444,"text":"報告委員,我們的目標是用前三年的數據再做30%,使用降30%為目的。全國職業災害墜落大概是5成左右,但是營造業的墜落災害是佔到7成。所以我們認為針對現場的開口,護欄沒有做,但是當作我們集合的重點,所以我們今年就整理做展開。"},{"start":258.064,"end":276.897,"text":"另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報我們系統裡面還有報告部會裡面的工程查也做進行那這個詳細數字因為現在加入3月我們是不是容許我們在後期補給這個資料給委員參考麻煩後補過來其實整個我要講就是說因為真的我覺得政府就是我們勞工最重要的後盾"},{"start":277.697,"end":277.717,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}}}}