{"id":152155,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1530180401adc99f0e12ebde737ab3c195c150fdf38e5cae660b2cef193fb396c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:36:09 - 10:49:30","影片長度":"00:13:21","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":801,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:49:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:36:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":321,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時36分）主席，請王部長。"],["主席：再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好！"],["張委員啓楷：部長早！立法院通過國民黨黨團提案的凍漲，以及我們台灣民眾黨黨團提案的緩漲，現在看起來，經濟部好像是「橫柴舉入灶」，也是要漲，是不是？這是不是藐視國會及新民意呢？能不能例如你來報告，像我們台灣民眾黨黨團的提案非常理性、務實、科學，就是你來報告，針對最近發生的弊案，例如力暘光電弊案，這個太嚴重了！檢察官都講，不法的利益所得91億2,600萬餘，而且現在被起訴了60幾個光電案，你來把它解釋說明清楚，對不對？","第二個、針對我們的能源政策、針對整個電價的結構，還有台電買電的錢，我們不是不讓你過，你來說服我們大家，這樣就過了，剛剛陳亭妃……"],["王部長美花：我想……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我提醒你一下，剛剛連你們民進黨的立委陳亭妃都說好好溝通。不要「橫柴舉入灶」，好不好……"],["王部長美花：溝通我們都非常樂意……"],["張委員啓楷：你來把它講清楚……"],["王部長美花：溝通我們都樂意……"],["張委員啓楷：就可以解凍。"],["王部長美花：委員要的這些資料，我們也都非常非常樂意提供，但是電價的部分，經過審議會，按照現在的法律來執行，我想這個還是讓台電……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你可以來解釋當初是怎麼樣解決這個問題，包括力暘光電弊案，這個是上個禮拜五剛剛起訴的，這都是新的案子，對不對？"],["王部長美花：就我們經濟部，我們都可以來說明……"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？我們……"],["王部長美花：我們沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：不要「橫柴舉入灶」，好不好？"],["王部長美花：沒有，我們都願意來說明。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛連民進黨立委都知道要溝通，不要老想這樣硬碰硬，這樣對不起人民，現在顯然人民還有很多疑問，對不對？立法院光是經濟委員會很多委員都有疑問，好不好？再想一下……"],["王部長美花：委員，沒有問題……"],["張委員啓楷：看能不能卸任前再來報告，好不好……"],["王部長美花：委員要的資料，我們都……"],["張委員啓楷：報告完之後，現在我們台灣民眾黨黨團的提案是緩漲，只要你說服我們大家，我們就會解凍，或者做某一部分的修正，好不好？我們很理性來面對這個問題。","再來，部長，我來問你一下，上禮拜我說你蓋牌，把大停電蓋牌，對不對？大停電不算停電，粉飾太平……"],["王部長美花：沒有，沒有蓋牌。"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對，你就說沒有蓋牌，所有大的媒體都說你們是蓋牌，可是我發現後來經濟部還發了一個新聞稿說，台電始終嚴格遵循國際標準進行供電可靠度的統計，部長，你們真的都是用國際標準進行嗎？"],["王部長美花：是啊！是。"],["張委員啓楷：大家所遵循最有名的國際標準就是IEEE，你們是遵循這個嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你等一下，我給你看，大家去網站上面看一下國際IEEE的標準是什麼、它的單位是什麼？是每一年、一戶、幾次，它的單位是不是每一年、每一戶、幾次，是不是？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員，國際的標準大概是兩項，一個是SAIDI，一個是SAIFI，全年每戶的停電時間跟每戶的停電次數。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！可是一般用的標準是這個嘛！你就把這個東西蓋牌啦！所以出現大停電全部都不算停電啊！來，讓部長回答，上次我問你，你說五一八大停電算一次，國際IEEE用的分母是那個，你現在要去做台新金的獨立董事，財務報表不能搞錯，它的單位是什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們台電都是按照國際的標準在呈現。"],["張委員啓楷：國際標準在上面，用最簡單的好不好？我們讓一般民眾評評理，部長，八一五有592萬戶停電，為什麼出來是0.553（次/戶.每年），臺灣的總戶數多少戶？809萬9,000戶，那個是分母，你現在把分母拿掉了，我問你最簡單的，八一五大停電是592萬戶停電，如果有一個停電是59萬戶，它出來的單位會變成什麼？會變成0.053，對不對？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：這兩個東西是不一樣的，我再給你看下一張，所以我要問你，我用的是IEEE國際的標準，我上禮拜跟你講的，蔡英文任內平均跳電次數加上大停電的次數是民國102年到105年的2.2倍，跳電時間是2.6倍，只要把大停電放回去，這個圖有錯嗎？你們怎麼發了一個聲明說你們才是國際標準，我這個不是呢？依照這個IEEE國際標準，就是啊！請問錯在哪裡？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：標準是一致的，委員講到停電的次數，當然，停了多少戶，只要超過一分鐘，台電都算，至於委員在講的停電影響的SAIDI、SAIFI，它會看的是停電的戶數跟停電的時間，所以台電在網站上……"],["張委員啓楷：我剛才講過了，592萬戶跟52萬戶跟5戶，算出來當然不一樣。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：沒有錯，所以委員你在我們網站上看到的，它就是這樣。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你現在去做獨立董事，你看的這個東西分母都如果都弄錯的話，這財務報表會出狀況。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員，你在我們網站上看到的就是國際上是這樣算，所以我們都有列出來。"],["張委員啓楷：國際上的單位就左邊這個，每一年、每一戶、每一次。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，我們在網站上也是這樣揭露。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！你們把八一五大停電變成一次，你的戶到哪裡去了？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：次數的統計它是一次，但是它對SAIDI、SAIFI的影響是不一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：大停電你把戶弄掉了，所以變成戶就沒有了嘛！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員，沒有弄掉，網站上你看得到，國際上的作法……"],["張委員啓楷：上次你解釋說有兩種，結果今天在爭這個，真相只有一個嘛！國際上用的是把戶放進去，你把戶拿走了，這是真相。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：是，沒錯……"],["張委員啓楷：我們來看下一張，現在還有一個大問題，你們一直在講國際，這是經濟部的新聞稿，對不對？沒錯吧？依照國際IEEE1366的標準，人為疏失、天災等之重大停電事故，統計上因為屬離群值，如計入將無法追蹤改善，所以你講一句話很重要，這是經濟部說的喔！國際上如韓國韓電、日本九州電力，都是把重大事故排除在外面，這是你寫的，對不對？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員，他們的作法有不同的方式，有些國際的電業會納進來……"],["張委員啓楷：你說日本九州電力跟你們是一樣的，你們用國際標準，我給你看，本席特別上了日本九州電力公司的網站，大家現在可以進去，大家現在就點進電腦去看，部長，你看右下角這個，你剛才說你們的重大事故、颱風、地震、大停電都不算，右下角這個是日本九州電力的圖，右下角這個圖上寫什麼？影響的包括颱風、地震，對不對？他們跟你一樣嗎？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：你給部長回答，部長，一樣嗎？"],["王部長美花：每一個……"],["張委員啓楷：你們經濟部發出來的新聞稿，你說你跟日本九州電力公司是一樣的，我現在給你看，日本九州電力公司跟你就是不一樣。"],["王部長美花：不是，它這個是另外的一個報告啦！在呈現總報告的時候，事實上我們去看台電的呈現方式跟很多國家，我另外用加註把它寫得很清楚，這個也是參考……"],["張委員啓楷：你那個是小小的，小到都蓋牌了。"],["王部長美花：沒有小小啦！這個都公開在網站上，很多國家甚至連加註都沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你看人家九州電力公司多麼誠實，颱風、地震等重大的事故有影響，你看日本九州怎麼寫？2022年他們停電的時間，每年、每戶115分鐘、0.15次，包括地震、颱風都有影響。我再給你看下一張，左邊是日本九州的，右邊是你們台電的，台電目前呈現的是這一張，你跟它有一樣嗎？你們把大停電蓋掉了嘛！所以你跟人家不一樣，結果你還在拉人家日本九州電力，日本九州電力公司會不會來抗議啊？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員，我們在網站上其實所有的數值都有公布啦！"],["張委員啓楷：有啦！你們弄一個小小、小小的。"],["蔡副總經理志孟：沒有，那個字體也沒有比較小啦！委員，都是一樣的字體啦！"],["張委員啓楷：這大家都可以公評，小非常多，而且你們新聞稿都在強調右邊這個，你們都是大停電不算停電以後的啊！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：其實各國電業用的方式都不一樣……"],["張委員啓楷：我們用比較理性務實的，我都給你看這個數據，我拿的都是你們台電的資料跟人家日本九州的，清清楚楚啊！這都是真的，對不對？真正的圖應該是這樣，左邊是你們台電自己做的，你如果真的要跟日本的九州電力一樣，你這兩個圖都要改成右邊這個啦！部長和副總經理看看，右邊這個是不是比較接近事實，是你講的國際IEEE的標準？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：報告委員，國際上其實有很多國家真的是先把離群值排掉，像美國就是另外放在別的地方，台電現在的統計是，我們把離群值排掉之後，才能夠看出它在其他的情況到底有沒有做改善，國際間也是採這樣的方法。"],["張委員啓楷：你要移花接木把大停電蓋掉……"],["蔡副總經理志孟：沒有移花接木，委員。"],["張委員啓楷：你也不能不把它解釋清楚，你還特別去講人家日本九州，人家日本九州是右邊這個圖，特別是大停電有颱風的、有地震的這個為主啊！他是小小去解釋，結果你不是，你剛好是人家大的，你變小；人家小的，你變大……"],["王部長美花：委員，重點是按照每一年停電的次數多少來看那應該怎麼改善，至於單一的、個別的事故的那個部分，確實是發生了，可是這個趨勢是要顯示，在電網韌性、在設備的更新上每年的努力有沒有進步……"],["張委員啓楷：部長現在這樣說，表示把大停電又蓋掉了……"],["王部長美花：也不是說蓋掉，因為那一個的人為操作……"],["張委員啓楷：4次大停電……"],["王部長美花：因為這個也是我們參考國際上……"],["張委員啓楷：它的分母是什麼？每一年、每一戶、幾次，好不好？我把這個圖送給台電啦！你們至少把右邊這個圖放上去，好不好？你們現在給民眾看的是左邊，多好多好，然後次數多少，時間都是變好的……"],["王部長美花：事實上就電力的韌性……"],["張委員啓楷：在圖片的右下角，你看這裡有一個高峰期，到109年又有一個高峰期，你就是把這4次的大停電放上去，學人家日本九州電力的，好不好？不要弄到日本九州都要來抗議……"],["主席：好，謝謝，再請行政部門……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我最後做個結論，所以經濟部的新聞稿我標記黃色的地方，國際上如韓國韓電、日本九州電力等，重大事故也沒有呈現在它網站上面。你要跟人家道歉，人家有呈現，對不對？我剛剛給他看，有沒有呈現？你說沒有，你們要不要跟人家道歉？這兩個問題，一個你們要跟日本九州道歉，一個你們要跟人民道歉……"],["王部長美花：我們再確認一下，因為我們看的是它年度的報告，剛才委員講的這個，我們再回去看一下它放的位置。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這不是內部啦！這是你們發布的新聞稿。"],["王部長美花：我是說他網站放的部分，因為我們都是看……"],["張委員啓楷：你們發這個新聞稿是又要否認我上禮拜講的……"],["王部長美花：我們再回去確認。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，我上禮拜講的東西是依據你們的數據，你都承認沒有錯嘛！對不對？第一個，我現在是講兩個很重要問題，你講人家日本九州等重大事故沒有呈現，我剛給你看，就是有啊！你要跟人家道歉……"],["主席：部長，我們今天在這邊答詢，主要就是……"],["張委員啓楷：把新聞稿改一下好不好？"],["主席：委員所提的，如果是有誤，你們就要趕快去更正，這個才是重點，好嗎？"],["王部長美花：是，我們再查一下。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在看到了還要查？"],["王部長美花：沒有，我們也要double check他怎麼呈現，我們會去看。"],["張委員啓楷：有嗎？重大事故沒有呈現嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們會去看一下，再跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：你們去看一下，有的話要改啦，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，我們再跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：不要日本來抗議，人民會覺得被你們騙了啦，好不好？好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請呂玉玲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 756.705, \"end\": 756.886, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"九\", \"start\": 756.886, \"end\": 757.086, \"score\": 0.902}, {\"word\": \"州\", \"start\": 757.086, \"end\": 757.106, \"score\": 0.016}, {\"word\": \"閱\"}, {\"word\": \"讀\"}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 758.027, \"end\": 758.047, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"長\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 775.657, \"end\": 775.677, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:01,530 --> 00:00:02,791\n接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。\n\n2\n00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:37,183\n法定人數不足\n\n3\n00:00:38,547 --> 00:01:05,448\n立法院通過國民黨的董長跟我們臺灣民眾黨的環長,現在看起來,經濟部那間也是發財夾子手,也是要長是不是?這是藐視國會跟新民意呢?能不能,例如說你來報告啊,像我們臺灣民眾黨的提案,非常理性、務實、科學啊。就是說你來報告完之後,針對最近發生的弊案,例如說立洋,\n\n4\n00:01:06,927 --> 00:01:25,660\n這個閉案、光電閉案這太嚴重了欸。檢察官都講不法利益所的九十一年兩千六百億欸。那現在被起訴了六十幾個光電的這案子啊。你來把它解釋、說明清楚對不對。第二,針對我們能源政策啊。針對整個電價的結果啊。還有台電買電的這個錢。欸我們不是說不讓你過欸。你來說服我們大家。\n\n5\n00:01:26,687 --> 00:01:30,949\n這樣就夠了,剛才陳廷輝都說好好溝通啊,不要發財走就知道,好不好?你現在起來吧,你發現大家都很喜歡你,你來把他講清楚。溝通我們都樂意,本要的這些的資料我們也都非常非常樂意提供。\n\n6\n00:01:46,277 --> 00:01:52,242\n但是電價的部分那經過審議會那按照現在的法律來執行我想這個還是讓台電...\n\n7\n00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:19,392\n這個光電幣案這是定例拜國都要起手的啊,這都是新的案子啊。就我們經濟部,我們都可以來說明,我們沒有問題。好不好,我們會繼續要,不要發財走十十啦。沒有,我們都願意來說明。剛剛連民進黨立委都知道說要溝通,要不要這樣,老蔣這樣硬碰硬。這樣對不起人民啊,現在顯然人民還有很多疑問,對不對。立法院光是經濟委員會很多委員都有疑問啊,好不好。\n\n8\n00:02:20,373 --> 00:02:25,739\n議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。\n\n9\n00:02:40,219 --> 00:03:03,542\n大停電不算停電,粉飾太平嘛,你就說沒有蓋牌。媒體,所有大的媒體都說你們是蓋牌的。可是你們後來我發現,你們經濟部還發了一個《台電始終嚴格遵循國際標準進行供電的可靠度統計》。寶定,你教經濟部,你們真的都是用了國際標準進行嗎?\n\n10\n00:03:09,048 --> 00:03:32,845\n國際的這個標準同步名的,大家遵循的就是國際IEEE嘛,對不對?你敢遵循這個?你等一下來,我給你看,來來來,你看一下。國際的IEEE,大家在網站上面可以看到,它的標準是什麼?它的單位是什麼?每一年一戶幾間,對不對?它的單位是不是每一年每一戶幾次?\n\n11\n00:03:35,069 --> 00:04:01,947\n是不是?國際的標準它大概是兩項啦,一個是SETI一個是SAFE啦。可是最一般用的標準是這個嘛,你現在把這個東西蓋牌啦,所以你出現大停電全部都不算停電啊。博定,來來來,給博定回答,博定你說一下,在平安問你啊,你說518大停電省一蓋,啊,國際要用的分母是那個耶,你現在要去做,\n\n12\n00:04:03,203 --> 00:04:05,404\n為什麼815592萬戶為什麼出來是0.553次的戶根每年?那台灣的總戶數多少?\n\n13\n00:04:29,346 --> 00:04:47,757\n告白控別0.9嘛。809萬點9千戶。那個是分母啊。你現在把分母拿掉了。我問你最簡單的。518大停電是590萬戶。如果有一個停電是59萬戶。它出來的單位會變成什麼?會變成0.053嘛對不對?是不是這樣?這兩個東西是不一樣的。來來我再給你看下一張。所以我要問你。我如果用的是國際的標準。\n\n14\n00:04:59,115 --> 00:05:16,583\n我上禮拜跟你講的,蔡英文任內平均跳電次數加上大停電是民國102年到105年2.2倍,跳電時間是2.6倍。這個圖只要把大停電放回去,這個圖有錯嗎?你們怎麼發了一個聲明說你們才是國際標準,我這個不是呢?\n\n15\n00:05:17,540 --> 00:05:38,647\n按照這個國際標準,一一就是啊。請問湊在哪裡?標準是一致啦。標準是一致的。委員講到的停電的次數,當然停了多少戶只要超過一分鐘,台電都算。那委員在講的停電的影響的satisafing,他會看的是停電的戶數跟停電的時間。所以台電在網站上...\n\n16\n00:05:44,509 --> 00:05:50,793\n五十二萬戶跟五戶當年審查,當年都不一樣啊!不然你現在在我們的網路上看到的,他就是這樣子講!八位委員,你在我們網路上看到就是國際上這樣算的啊!所以我們都有列出來啊!\n\n17\n00:06:02,989 --> 00:06:30,616\n國際上這個是剛剛給你跳回到前面一張,它的單位就是左邊這個啊,每一年每一戶每一次啊。是,我們在網上上也是這樣揭露啊。對啊,啊你們把大庭店,把815變成一次,你的戶到哪裡去了?次數的統計它是一次,但是它對Satisafi的影響是不一樣。所以你把戶弄掉了嘛,大庭店弄掉了,所以就變成戶就沒有了嘛。沒有,包圍沒有弄掉,網上上你看得到,它國際上的做法。有兩種,結果今天你要再多多,真相只有一個嘛。\n\n18\n00:06:32,086 --> 00:06:36,753\n國際上用的是保護放進去,你保護拿走的都是真相,來看下一張,來來來,現在還有一個大問題,你們這個,你們現在拉著,一直在講國際,來來,再來再來,來。\n\n19\n00:06:44,960 --> 00:07:12,906\n你們一直講,這經濟部的新聞稿對不對?是不是?這新聞稿對不對?沒錯吧?依照國際IEE1366的標準,人為的疏忽跟天災等重大的大停電事故,統計上因為離開這個群組,所以紀錄沒辦法去改善。所以你講一句話很重要,這你經濟部說的喔。國際、人民,包括韓國的韓電、日本的九州電力,都是把重大事故排除在外面。這是你嚇的對不對?\n\n20\n00:07:14,858 --> 00:07:43,183\n拜訪委員他們的做法有不同的方式啦。有些國際的電業他們會納進來。你說日本九州電力跟你們是一樣的,你們用國際標準。哇你看本席特別上了日本九州電力公司的網站。大家現在可以站起來。大家現在剪進電腦上去看。我給你們看右下角這個。你剛才說你們的重大事故,紅胎跌宕,大庭店都沒剩。\n\n21\n00:07:44,212 --> 00:08:11,542\n右下角這個是日本九州電力的,右下角這個土地名下上面,影響的包括什麼?紅胎、地震,對不對?他們跟你一樣嗎?保安委員,等一下,你有保定一樣嗎?你的新聞稿,你的經濟發展新聞稿,你說我跟日本九州電力公司是一樣的,我現在給你看,日本九州電力公司跟你就是不一樣!\n\n22\n00:08:12,622 --> 00:08:31,932\n不是,它這個是另外的一個報告啦齁那在呈現總的報告的時候事實上我們去看臺電的呈現方式跟這個很多國家就是我另外用家住把它寫得很清楚那這個也是參考小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小\n\n23\n00:08:44,566 --> 00:09:04,842\n他們停電的時間每年每戶多少時間?115分鐘幾次?0.15包括電力颱風都有影響啊來來來我再給你看下一張可是你看左邊是人家日本的九州的這邊這張是你們台電的啦你們台電目前呈現的是這一張\n\n24\n00:09:05,987 --> 00:09:31,139\n你跟他有一樣嗎?你們把大庭店蓋掉了嘛,所以你跟人家不一樣,結果你還是拉人家說日本九州電力,欸,日本九州電力公司會不會來抗議啊?委員,巴委員,我們在網上上其實所有的數字都有公布啦。欸,有啦,你們弄一個小小小小,然後你們就用右邊這一張。那個字體也沒有比較小啦,委員,都是一樣的字體啦。這大家都可以公平,小的非常多,而且你們新聞稿都在強調右邊這個啊。\n\n25\n00:09:32,780 --> 00:09:56,985\n你們都是大停電、不算停電以後的啊。來啦來啦,我們用比較理性、務實的。我都給你看這個數據對不對。我拿的都是你們台電的資料跟人家日本九州的清清楚楚啊。這都是真的嘛,對不對。來,看後一張。真正的圖應該這樣啦。對面是你們台電自己做的。你如果真的要跟日本的九州電力一樣,你這兩個圖都要改成右邊這個啦。\n\n26\n00:09:58,544 --> 00:09:59,685\n五、中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。\n\n27\n00:10:21,664 --> 00:10:31,852\n議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發\n\n28\n00:10:47,265 --> 00:10:59,956\nadequate個別的事故的那個部分確實是發生了可是你這個趨勢是要告訴說每年的努力在電網韌性在設備的更新上有沒有進步也不是說蓋掉因為他那個的人為操作因為這個也是我們參考國際上我把這個圖送給台電啦\n\n29\n00:11:12,230 --> 00:11:32,222\n你們至少把右邊這個圖放上去好不好?你們現在都要給民眾看的那左邊多好多好,然後次數多少,時間都是變好的。那事實上就電力的韌性。他這邊有個高峰起來對不對?到了109年又有高峰起來,你就是把這四次的大停電把它放上去,學人家。\n\n30\n00:11:33,183 --> 00:12:00,243\n日本九州電力好不好不要弄到日本九州都要來看那再請行政部門我最後做個結論好來我們看後面這個好所以你的新聞稿經濟部新聞局黃色這地方國際上如韓國韓電日本九州電力等都重大事故也沒有呈現在他網站上面你要跟人家道歉人家有呈現對不對有沒有我剛給他看看有沒有呈現你說沒有\n\n31\n00:12:02,725 --> 00:12:21,305\n你們要不要跟人家道歉啊?這兩個問題耶!我們再確認一下,因為我們看的是他年度的報告,那這一個剛才委員講,我們再回去看一下他放的位置。我聽說這不是內部啦,這是你們...沒有沒有,我是說他網站放的部分。\n\n32\n00:12:22,026 --> 00:12:37,106\n你們發這個新聞稿是要否認我上禮拜講的我今天第一個我跟你講我上禮拜的東西依據你們的數據所以完全你都承認嘛沒有錯嘛對不對第一個我現在是講兩個很重要的問題你講人家日本九州\n\n33\n00:12:38,027 --> 00:12:38,047\n閱讀委員會長\n\n34\n00:12:55,657 --> 00:12:55,677\n好謝謝謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n1530\t2791\t接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。\n36680\t37183\t法定人數不足\n38547\t65448\t立法院通過國民黨的董長跟我們臺灣民眾黨的環長,現在看起來,經濟部那間也是發財夾子手,也是要長是不是?這是藐視國會跟新民意呢?能不能,例如說你來報告啊,像我們臺灣民眾黨的提案,非常理性、務實、科學啊。就是說你來報告完之後,針對最近發生的弊案,例如說立洋,\n66927\t85660\t這個閉案、光電閉案這太嚴重了欸。檢察官都講不法利益所的九十一年兩千六百億欸。那現在被起訴了六十幾個光電的這案子啊。你來把它解釋、說明清楚對不對。第二,針對我們能源政策啊。針對整個電價的結果啊。還有台電買電的這個錢。欸我們不是說不讓你過欸。你來說服我們大家。\n86687\t90949\t這樣就夠了,剛才陳廷輝都說好好溝通啊,不要發財走就知道,好不好?你現在起來吧,你發現大家都很喜歡你,你來把他講清楚。溝通我們都樂意,本要的這些的資料我們也都非常非常樂意提供。\n106277\t112242\t但是電價的部分那經過審議會那按照現在的法律來執行我想這個還是讓台電...\n117840\t139392\t這個光電幣案這是定例拜國都要起手的啊,這都是新的案子啊。就我們經濟部,我們都可以來說明,我們沒有問題。好不好,我們會繼續要,不要發財走十十啦。沒有,我們都願意來說明。剛剛連民進黨立委都知道說要溝通,要不要這樣,老蔣這樣硬碰硬。這樣對不起人民啊,現在顯然人民還有很多疑問,對不對。立法院光是經濟委員會很多委員都有疑問啊,好不好。\n140373\t145739\t議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。\n160219\t183542\t大停電不算停電,粉飾太平嘛,你就說沒有蓋牌。媒體,所有大的媒體都說你們是蓋牌的。可是你們後來我發現,你們經濟部還發了一個《台電始終嚴格遵循國際標準進行供電的可靠度統計》。寶定,你教經濟部,你們真的都是用了國際標準進行嗎?\n189048\t212845\t國際的這個標準同步名的,大家遵循的就是國際IEEE嘛,對不對?你敢遵循這個?你等一下來,我給你看,來來來,你看一下。國際的IEEE,大家在網站上面可以看到,它的標準是什麼?它的單位是什麼?每一年一戶幾間,對不對?它的單位是不是每一年每一戶幾次?\n215069\t241947\t是不是?國際的標準它大概是兩項啦,一個是SETI一個是SAFE啦。可是最一般用的標準是這個嘛,你現在把這個東西蓋牌啦,所以你出現大停電全部都不算停電啊。博定,來來來,給博定回答,博定你說一下,在平安問你啊,你說518大停電省一蓋,啊,國際要用的分母是那個耶,你現在要去做,\n243203\t245404\t為什麼815592萬戶為什麼出來是0.553次的戶根每年?那台灣的總戶數多少?\n269346\t287757\t告白控別0.9嘛。809萬點9千戶。那個是分母啊。你現在把分母拿掉了。我問你最簡單的。518大停電是590萬戶。如果有一個停電是59萬戶。它出來的單位會變成什麼?會變成0.053嘛對不對?是不是這樣?這兩個東西是不一樣的。來來我再給你看下一張。所以我要問你。我如果用的是國際的標準。\n299115\t316583\t我上禮拜跟你講的,蔡英文任內平均跳電次數加上大停電是民國102年到105年2.2倍,跳電時間是2.6倍。這個圖只要把大停電放回去,這個圖有錯嗎?你們怎麼發了一個聲明說你們才是國際標準,我這個不是呢?\n317540\t338647\t按照這個國際標準,一一就是啊。請問湊在哪裡?標準是一致啦。標準是一致的。委員講到的停電的次數,當然停了多少戶只要超過一分鐘,台電都算。那委員在講的停電的影響的satisafing,他會看的是停電的戶數跟停電的時間。所以台電在網站上...\n344509\t350793\t五十二萬戶跟五戶當年審查,當年都不一樣啊!不然你現在在我們的網路上看到的,他就是這樣子講!八位委員,你在我們網路上看到就是國際上這樣算的啊!所以我們都有列出來啊!\n362989\t390616\t國際上這個是剛剛給你跳回到前面一張,它的單位就是左邊這個啊,每一年每一戶每一次啊。是,我們在網上上也是這樣揭露啊。對啊,啊你們把大庭店,把815變成一次,你的戶到哪裡去了?次數的統計它是一次,但是它對Satisafi的影響是不一樣。所以你把戶弄掉了嘛,大庭店弄掉了,所以就變成戶就沒有了嘛。沒有,包圍沒有弄掉,網上上你看得到,它國際上的做法。有兩種,結果今天你要再多多,真相只有一個嘛。\n392086\t396753\t國際上用的是保護放進去,你保護拿走的都是真相,來看下一張,來來來,現在還有一個大問題,你們這個,你們現在拉著,一直在講國際,來來,再來再來,來。\n404960\t432906\t你們一直講,這經濟部的新聞稿對不對?是不是?這新聞稿對不對?沒錯吧?依照國際IEE1366的標準,人為的疏忽跟天災等重大的大停電事故,統計上因為離開這個群組,所以紀錄沒辦法去改善。所以你講一句話很重要,這你經濟部說的喔。國際、人民,包括韓國的韓電、日本的九州電力,都是把重大事故排除在外面。這是你嚇的對不對?\n434858\t463183\t拜訪委員他們的做法有不同的方式啦。有些國際的電業他們會納進來。你說日本九州電力跟你們是一樣的,你們用國際標準。哇你看本席特別上了日本九州電力公司的網站。大家現在可以站起來。大家現在剪進電腦上去看。我給你們看右下角這個。你剛才說你們的重大事故,紅胎跌宕,大庭店都沒剩。\n464212\t491542\t右下角這個是日本九州電力的,右下角這個土地名下上面,影響的包括什麼?紅胎、地震,對不對?他們跟你一樣嗎?保安委員,等一下,你有保定一樣嗎?你的新聞稿,你的經濟發展新聞稿,你說我跟日本九州電力公司是一樣的,我現在給你看,日本九州電力公司跟你就是不一樣!\n492622\t511932\t不是,它這個是另外的一個報告啦齁那在呈現總的報告的時候事實上我們去看臺電的呈現方式跟這個很多國家就是我另外用家住把它寫得很清楚那這個也是參考小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小\n524566\t544842\t他們停電的時間每年每戶多少時間?115分鐘幾次?0.15包括電力颱風都有影響啊來來來我再給你看下一張可是你看左邊是人家日本的九州的這邊這張是你們台電的啦你們台電目前呈現的是這一張\n545987\t571139\t你跟他有一樣嗎?你們把大庭店蓋掉了嘛,所以你跟人家不一樣,結果你還是拉人家說日本九州電力,欸,日本九州電力公司會不會來抗議啊?委員,巴委員,我們在網上上其實所有的數字都有公布啦。欸,有啦,你們弄一個小小小小,然後你們就用右邊這一張。那個字體也沒有比較小啦,委員,都是一樣的字體啦。這大家都可以公平,小的非常多,而且你們新聞稿都在強調右邊這個啊。\n572780\t596985\t你們都是大停電、不算停電以後的啊。來啦來啦,我們用比較理性、務實的。我都給你看這個數據對不對。我拿的都是你們台電的資料跟人家日本九州的清清楚楚啊。這都是真的嘛,對不對。來,看後一張。真正的圖應該這樣啦。對面是你們台電自己做的。你如果真的要跟日本的九州電力一樣,你這兩個圖都要改成右邊這個啦。\n598544\t599685\t五、中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。\n621664\t631852\t議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發\n647265\t659956\tadequate個別的事故的那個部分確實是發生了可是你這個趨勢是要告訴說每年的努力在電網韌性在設備的更新上有沒有進步也不是說蓋掉因為他那個的人為操作因為這個也是我們參考國際上我把這個圖送給台電啦\n672230\t692222\t你們至少把右邊這個圖放上去好不好?你們現在都要給民眾看的那左邊多好多好,然後次數多少,時間都是變好的。那事實上就電力的韌性。他這邊有個高峰起來對不對?到了109年又有高峰起來,你就是把這四次的大停電把它放上去,學人家。\n693183\t720243\t日本九州電力好不好不要弄到日本九州都要來看那再請行政部門我最後做個結論好來我們看後面這個好所以你的新聞稿經濟部新聞局黃色這地方國際上如韓國韓電日本九州電力等都重大事故也沒有呈現在他網站上面你要跟人家道歉人家有呈現對不對有沒有我剛給他看看有沒有呈現你說沒有\n722725\t741305\t你們要不要跟人家道歉啊?這兩個問題耶!我們再確認一下,因為我們看的是他年度的報告,那這一個剛才委員講,我們再回去看一下他放的位置。我聽說這不是內部啦,這是你們...沒有沒有,我是說他網站放的部分。\n742026\t757106\t你們發這個新聞稿是要否認我上禮拜講的我今天第一個我跟你講我上禮拜的東西依據你們的數據所以完全你都承認嘛沒有錯嘛對不對第一個我現在是講兩個很重要的問題你講人家日本九州\n758027\t758047\t閱讀委員會長\n775657\t775677\t好 謝謝 謝謝\n","txt":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。\n法定人數不足\n立法院通過國民黨的董長跟我們臺灣民眾黨的環長,現在看起來,經濟部那間也是發財夾子手,也是要長是不是?這是藐視國會跟新民意呢?能不能,例如說你來報告啊,像我們臺灣民眾黨的提案,非常理性、務實、科學啊。就是說你來報告完之後,針對最近發生的弊案,例如說立洋,\n這個閉案、光電閉案這太嚴重了欸。檢察官都講不法利益所的九十一年兩千六百億欸。那現在被起訴了六十幾個光電的這案子啊。你來把它解釋、說明清楚對不對。第二,針對我們能源政策啊。針對整個電價的結果啊。還有台電買電的這個錢。欸我們不是說不讓你過欸。你來說服我們大家。\n這樣就夠了,剛才陳廷輝都說好好溝通啊,不要發財走就知道,好不好?你現在起來吧,你發現大家都很喜歡你,你來把他講清楚。溝通我們都樂意,本要的這些的資料我們也都非常非常樂意提供。\n但是電價的部分那經過審議會那按照現在的法律來執行我想這個還是讓台電...\n這個光電幣案這是定例拜國都要起手的啊,這都是新的案子啊。就我們經濟部,我們都可以來說明,我們沒有問題。好不好,我們會繼續要,不要發財走十十啦。沒有,我們都願意來說明。剛剛連民進黨立委都知道說要溝通,要不要這樣,老蔣這樣硬碰硬。這樣對不起人民啊,現在顯然人民還有很多疑問,對不對。立法院光是經濟委員會很多委員都有疑問啊,好不好。\n議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。\n大停電不算停電,粉飾太平嘛,你就說沒有蓋牌。媒體,所有大的媒體都說你們是蓋牌的。可是你們後來我發現,你們經濟部還發了一個《台電始終嚴格遵循國際標準進行供電的可靠度統計》。寶定,你教經濟部,你們真的都是用了國際標準進行嗎?\n國際的這個標準同步名的,大家遵循的就是國際IEEE嘛,對不對?你敢遵循這個?你等一下來,我給你看,來來來,你看一下。國際的IEEE,大家在網站上面可以看到,它的標準是什麼?它的單位是什麼?每一年一戶幾間,對不對?它的單位是不是每一年每一戶幾次?\n是不是?國際的標準它大概是兩項啦,一個是SETI一個是SAFE啦。可是最一般用的標準是這個嘛,你現在把這個東西蓋牌啦,所以你出現大停電全部都不算停電啊。博定,來來來,給博定回答,博定你說一下,在平安問你啊,你說518大停電省一蓋,啊,國際要用的分母是那個耶,你現在要去做,\n為什麼815592萬戶為什麼出來是0.553次的戶根每年?那台灣的總戶數多少?\n告白控別0.9嘛。809萬點9千戶。那個是分母啊。你現在把分母拿掉了。我問你最簡單的。518大停電是590萬戶。如果有一個停電是59萬戶。它出來的單位會變成什麼?會變成0.053嘛對不對?是不是這樣?這兩個東西是不一樣的。來來我再給你看下一張。所以我要問你。我如果用的是國際的標準。\n我上禮拜跟你講的,蔡英文任內平均跳電次數加上大停電是民國102年到105年2.2倍,跳電時間是2.6倍。這個圖只要把大停電放回去,這個圖有錯嗎?你們怎麼發了一個聲明說你們才是國際標準,我這個不是呢?\n按照這個國際標準,一一就是啊。請問湊在哪裡?標準是一致啦。標準是一致的。委員講到的停電的次數,當然停了多少戶只要超過一分鐘,台電都算。那委員在講的停電的影響的satisafing,他會看的是停電的戶數跟停電的時間。所以台電在網站上...\n五十二萬戶跟五戶當年審查,當年都不一樣啊!不然你現在在我們的網路上看到的,他就是這樣子講!八位委員,你在我們網路上看到就是國際上這樣算的啊!所以我們都有列出來啊!\n國際上這個是剛剛給你跳回到前面一張,它的單位就是左邊這個啊,每一年每一戶每一次啊。是,我們在網上上也是這樣揭露啊。對啊,啊你們把大庭店,把815變成一次,你的戶到哪裡去了?次數的統計它是一次,但是它對Satisafi的影響是不一樣。所以你把戶弄掉了嘛,大庭店弄掉了,所以就變成戶就沒有了嘛。沒有,包圍沒有弄掉,網上上你看得到,它國際上的做法。有兩種,結果今天你要再多多,真相只有一個嘛。\n國際上用的是保護放進去,你保護拿走的都是真相,來看下一張,來來來,現在還有一個大問題,你們這個,你們現在拉著,一直在講國際,來來,再來再來,來。\n你們一直講,這經濟部的新聞稿對不對?是不是?這新聞稿對不對?沒錯吧?依照國際IEE1366的標準,人為的疏忽跟天災等重大的大停電事故,統計上因為離開這個群組,所以紀錄沒辦法去改善。所以你講一句話很重要,這你經濟部說的喔。國際、人民,包括韓國的韓電、日本的九州電力,都是把重大事故排除在外面。這是你嚇的對不對?\n拜訪委員他們的做法有不同的方式啦。有些國際的電業他們會納進來。你說日本九州電力跟你們是一樣的,你們用國際標準。哇你看本席特別上了日本九州電力公司的網站。大家現在可以站起來。大家現在剪進電腦上去看。我給你們看右下角這個。你剛才說你們的重大事故,紅胎跌宕,大庭店都沒剩。\n右下角這個是日本九州電力的,右下角這個土地名下上面,影響的包括什麼?紅胎、地震,對不對?他們跟你一樣嗎?保安委員,等一下,你有保定一樣嗎?你的新聞稿,你的經濟發展新聞稿,你說我跟日本九州電力公司是一樣的,我現在給你看,日本九州電力公司跟你就是不一樣!\n不是,它這個是另外的一個報告啦齁那在呈現總的報告的時候事實上我們去看臺電的呈現方式跟這個很多國家就是我另外用家住把它寫得很清楚那這個也是參考小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小\n他們停電的時間每年每戶多少時間?115分鐘幾次?0.15包括電力颱風都有影響啊來來來我再給你看下一張可是你看左邊是人家日本的九州的這邊這張是你們台電的啦你們台電目前呈現的是這一張\n你跟他有一樣嗎?你們把大庭店蓋掉了嘛,所以你跟人家不一樣,結果你還是拉人家說日本九州電力,欸,日本九州電力公司會不會來抗議啊?委員,巴委員,我們在網上上其實所有的數字都有公布啦。欸,有啦,你們弄一個小小小小,然後你們就用右邊這一張。那個字體也沒有比較小啦,委員,都是一樣的字體啦。這大家都可以公平,小的非常多,而且你們新聞稿都在強調右邊這個啊。\n你們都是大停電、不算停電以後的啊。來啦來啦,我們用比較理性、務實的。我都給你看這個數據對不對。我拿的都是你們台電的資料跟人家日本九州的清清楚楚啊。這都是真的嘛,對不對。來,看後一張。真正的圖應該這樣啦。對面是你們台電自己做的。你如果真的要跟日本的九州電力一樣,你這兩個圖都要改成右邊這個啦。\n五、中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。\n議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發\nadequate個別的事故的那個部分確實是發生了可是你這個趨勢是要告訴說每年的努力在電網韌性在設備的更新上有沒有進步也不是說蓋掉因為他那個的人為操作因為這個也是我們參考國際上我把這個圖送給台電啦\n你們至少把右邊這個圖放上去好不好?你們現在都要給民眾看的那左邊多好多好,然後次數多少,時間都是變好的。那事實上就電力的韌性。他這邊有個高峰起來對不對?到了109年又有高峰起來,你就是把這四次的大停電把它放上去,學人家。\n日本九州電力好不好不要弄到日本九州都要來看那再請行政部門我最後做個結論好來我們看後面這個好所以你的新聞稿經濟部新聞局黃色這地方國際上如韓國韓電日本九州電力等都重大事故也沒有呈現在他網站上面你要跟人家道歉人家有呈現對不對有沒有我剛給他看看有沒有呈現你說沒有\n你們要不要跟人家道歉啊?這兩個問題耶!我們再確認一下,因為我們看的是他年度的報告,那這一個剛才委員講,我們再回去看一下他放的位置。我聽說這不是內部啦,這是你們...沒有沒有,我是說他網站放的部分。\n你們發這個新聞稿是要否認我上禮拜講的我今天第一個我跟你講我上禮拜的東西依據你們的數據所以完全你都承認嘛沒有錯嘛對不對第一個我現在是講兩個很重要的問題你講人家日本九州\n閱讀委員會長\n好 謝謝 謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:01.530 --> 00:02.791\n接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。\n\n00:36.680 --> 00:37.183\n法定人數不足\n\n00:38.547 --> 01:05.448\n立法院通過國民黨的董長跟我們臺灣民眾黨的環長,現在看起來,經濟部那間也是發財夾子手,也是要長是不是?這是藐視國會跟新民意呢?能不能,例如說你來報告啊,像我們臺灣民眾黨的提案,非常理性、務實、科學啊。就是說你來報告完之後,針對最近發生的弊案,例如說立洋,\n\n01:06.927 --> 01:25.660\n這個閉案、光電閉案這太嚴重了欸。檢察官都講不法利益所的九十一年兩千六百億欸。那現在被起訴了六十幾個光電的這案子啊。你來把它解釋、說明清楚對不對。第二,針對我們能源政策啊。針對整個電價的結果啊。還有台電買電的這個錢。欸我們不是說不讓你過欸。你來說服我們大家。\n\n01:26.687 --> 01:30.949\n這樣就夠了,剛才陳廷輝都說好好溝通啊,不要發財走就知道,好不好?你現在起來吧,你發現大家都很喜歡你,你來把他講清楚。溝通我們都樂意,本要的這些的資料我們也都非常非常樂意提供。\n\n01:46.277 --> 01:52.242\n但是電價的部分那經過審議會那按照現在的法律來執行我想這個還是讓台電...\n\n01:57.840 --> 02:19.392\n這個光電幣案這是定例拜國都要起手的啊,這都是新的案子啊。就我們經濟部,我們都可以來說明,我們沒有問題。好不好,我們會繼續要,不要發財走十十啦。沒有,我們都願意來說明。剛剛連民進黨立委都知道說要溝通,要不要這樣,老蔣這樣硬碰硬。這樣對不起人民啊,現在顯然人民還有很多疑問,對不對。立法院光是經濟委員會很多委員都有疑問啊,好不好。\n\n02:20.373 --> 02:25.739\n議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。\n\n02:40.219 --> 03:03.542\n大停電不算停電,粉飾太平嘛,你就說沒有蓋牌。媒體,所有大的媒體都說你們是蓋牌的。可是你們後來我發現,你們經濟部還發了一個《台電始終嚴格遵循國際標準進行供電的可靠度統計》。寶定,你教經濟部,你們真的都是用了國際標準進行嗎?\n\n03:09.048 --> 03:32.845\n國際的這個標準同步名的,大家遵循的就是國際IEEE嘛,對不對?你敢遵循這個?你等一下來,我給你看,來來來,你看一下。國際的IEEE,大家在網站上面可以看到,它的標準是什麼?它的單位是什麼?每一年一戶幾間,對不對?它的單位是不是每一年每一戶幾次?\n\n03:35.069 --> 04:01.947\n是不是?國際的標準它大概是兩項啦,一個是SETI一個是SAFE啦。可是最一般用的標準是這個嘛,你現在把這個東西蓋牌啦,所以你出現大停電全部都不算停電啊。博定,來來來,給博定回答,博定你說一下,在平安問你啊,你說518大停電省一蓋,啊,國際要用的分母是那個耶,你現在要去做,\n\n04:03.203 --> 04:05.404\n為什麼815592萬戶為什麼出來是0.553次的戶根每年?那台灣的總戶數多少?\n\n04:29.346 --> 04:47.757\n告白控別0.9嘛。809萬點9千戶。那個是分母啊。你現在把分母拿掉了。我問你最簡單的。518大停電是590萬戶。如果有一個停電是59萬戶。它出來的單位會變成什麼?會變成0.053嘛對不對?是不是這樣?這兩個東西是不一樣的。來來我再給你看下一張。所以我要問你。我如果用的是國際的標準。\n\n04:59.115 --> 05:16.583\n我上禮拜跟你講的,蔡英文任內平均跳電次數加上大停電是民國102年到105年2.2倍,跳電時間是2.6倍。這個圖只要把大停電放回去,這個圖有錯嗎?你們怎麼發了一個聲明說你們才是國際標準,我這個不是呢?\n\n05:17.540 --> 05:38.647\n按照這個國際標準,一一就是啊。請問湊在哪裡?標準是一致啦。標準是一致的。委員講到的停電的次數,當然停了多少戶只要超過一分鐘,台電都算。那委員在講的停電的影響的satisafing,他會看的是停電的戶數跟停電的時間。所以台電在網站上...\n\n05:44.509 --> 05:50.793\n五十二萬戶跟五戶當年審查,當年都不一樣啊!不然你現在在我們的網路上看到的,他就是這樣子講!八位委員,你在我們網路上看到就是國際上這樣算的啊!所以我們都有列出來啊!\n\n06:02.989 --> 06:30.616\n國際上這個是剛剛給你跳回到前面一張,它的單位就是左邊這個啊,每一年每一戶每一次啊。是,我們在網上上也是這樣揭露啊。對啊,啊你們把大庭店,把815變成一次,你的戶到哪裡去了?次數的統計它是一次,但是它對Satisafi的影響是不一樣。所以你把戶弄掉了嘛,大庭店弄掉了,所以就變成戶就沒有了嘛。沒有,包圍沒有弄掉,網上上你看得到,它國際上的做法。有兩種,結果今天你要再多多,真相只有一個嘛。\n\n06:32.086 --> 06:36.753\n國際上用的是保護放進去,你保護拿走的都是真相,來看下一張,來來來,現在還有一個大問題,你們這個,你們現在拉著,一直在講國際,來來,再來再來,來。\n\n06:44.960 --> 07:12.906\n你們一直講,這經濟部的新聞稿對不對?是不是?這新聞稿對不對?沒錯吧?依照國際IEE1366的標準,人為的疏忽跟天災等重大的大停電事故,統計上因為離開這個群組,所以紀錄沒辦法去改善。所以你講一句話很重要,這你經濟部說的喔。國際、人民,包括韓國的韓電、日本的九州電力,都是把重大事故排除在外面。這是你嚇的對不對?\n\n07:14.858 --> 07:43.183\n拜訪委員他們的做法有不同的方式啦。有些國際的電業他們會納進來。你說日本九州電力跟你們是一樣的,你們用國際標準。哇你看本席特別上了日本九州電力公司的網站。大家現在可以站起來。大家現在剪進電腦上去看。我給你們看右下角這個。你剛才說你們的重大事故,紅胎跌宕,大庭店都沒剩。\n\n07:44.212 --> 08:11.542\n右下角這個是日本九州電力的,右下角這個土地名下上面,影響的包括什麼?紅胎、地震,對不對?他們跟你一樣嗎?保安委員,等一下,你有保定一樣嗎?你的新聞稿,你的經濟發展新聞稿,你說我跟日本九州電力公司是一樣的,我現在給你看,日本九州電力公司跟你就是不一樣!\n\n08:12.622 --> 08:31.932\n不是,它這個是另外的一個報告啦齁那在呈現總的報告的時候事實上我們去看臺電的呈現方式跟這個很多國家就是我另外用家住把它寫得很清楚那這個也是參考小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小\n\n08:44.566 --> 09:04.842\n他們停電的時間每年每戶多少時間?115分鐘幾次?0.15包括電力颱風都有影響啊來來來我再給你看下一張可是你看左邊是人家日本的九州的這邊這張是你們台電的啦你們台電目前呈現的是這一張\n\n09:05.987 --> 09:31.139\n你跟他有一樣嗎?你們把大庭店蓋掉了嘛,所以你跟人家不一樣,結果你還是拉人家說日本九州電力,欸,日本九州電力公司會不會來抗議啊?委員,巴委員,我們在網上上其實所有的數字都有公布啦。欸,有啦,你們弄一個小小小小,然後你們就用右邊這一張。那個字體也沒有比較小啦,委員,都是一樣的字體啦。這大家都可以公平,小的非常多,而且你們新聞稿都在強調右邊這個啊。\n\n09:32.780 --> 09:56.985\n你們都是大停電、不算停電以後的啊。來啦來啦,我們用比較理性、務實的。我都給你看這個數據對不對。我拿的都是你們台電的資料跟人家日本九州的清清楚楚啊。這都是真的嘛,對不對。來,看後一張。真正的圖應該這樣啦。對面是你們台電自己做的。你如果真的要跟日本的九州電力一樣,你這兩個圖都要改成右邊這個啦。\n\n09:58.544 --> 09:59.685\n五、中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。\n\n10:21.664 --> 10:31.852\n議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發\n\n10:47.265 --> 10:59.956\nadequate個別的事故的那個部分確實是發生了可是你這個趨勢是要告訴說每年的努力在電網韌性在設備的更新上有沒有進步也不是說蓋掉因為他那個的人為操作因為這個也是我們參考國際上我把這個圖送給台電啦\n\n11:12.230 --> 11:32.222\n你們至少把右邊這個圖放上去好不好?你們現在都要給民眾看的那左邊多好多好,然後次數多少,時間都是變好的。那事實上就電力的韌性。他這邊有個高峰起來對不對?到了109年又有高峰起來,你就是把這四次的大停電把它放上去,學人家。\n\n11:33.183 --> 12:00.243\n日本九州電力好不好不要弄到日本九州都要來看那再請行政部門我最後做個結論好來我們看後面這個好所以你的新聞稿經濟部新聞局黃色這地方國際上如韓國韓電日本九州電力等都重大事故也沒有呈現在他網站上面你要跟人家道歉人家有呈現對不對有沒有我剛給他看看有沒有呈現你說沒有\n\n12:02.725 --> 12:21.305\n你們要不要跟人家道歉啊?這兩個問題耶!我們再確認一下,因為我們看的是他年度的報告,那這一個剛才委員講,我們再回去看一下他放的位置。我聽說這不是內部啦,這是你們...沒有沒有,我是說他網站放的部分。\n\n12:22.026 --> 12:37.106\n你們發這個新聞稿是要否認我上禮拜講的我今天第一個我跟你講我上禮拜的東西依據你們的數據所以完全你都承認嘛沒有錯嘛對不對第一個我現在是講兩個很重要的問題你講人家日本九州\n\n12:38.027 --> 12:38.047\n閱讀委員會長\n\n12:55.657 --> 12:55.677\n好謝謝謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":1.53,"end":2.791,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。"},{"start":36.68,"end":37.183,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":38.547,"end":65.448,"text":"立法院通過國民黨的董長跟我們臺灣民眾黨的環長,現在看起來,經濟部那間也是發財夾子手,也是要長是不是?這是藐視國會跟新民意呢?能不能,例如說你來報告啊,像我們臺灣民眾黨的提案,非常理性、務實、科學啊。就是說你來報告完之後,針對最近發生的弊案,例如說立洋,"},{"start":66.927,"end":85.66,"text":"這個閉案、光電閉案這太嚴重了欸。檢察官都講不法利益所的九十一年兩千六百億欸。那現在被起訴了六十幾個光電的這案子啊。你來把它解釋、說明清楚對不對。第二,針對我們能源政策啊。針對整個電價的結果啊。還有台電買電的這個錢。欸我們不是說不讓你過欸。你來說服我們大家。"},{"start":86.687,"end":90.949,"text":"這樣就夠了,剛才陳廷輝都說好好溝通啊,不要發財走就知道,好不好?你現在起來吧,你發現大家都很喜歡你,你來把他講清楚。溝通我們都樂意,本要的這些的資料我們也都非常非常樂意提供。"},{"start":106.277,"end":112.242,"text":"但是電價的部分那經過審議會那按照現在的法律來執行我想這個還是讓台電..."},{"start":117.84,"end":139.392,"text":"這個光電幣案這是定例拜國都要起手的啊,這都是新的案子啊。就我們經濟部,我們都可以來說明,我們沒有問題。好不好,我們會繼續要,不要發財走十十啦。沒有,我們都願意來說明。剛剛連民進黨立委都知道說要溝通,要不要這樣,老蔣這樣硬碰硬。這樣對不起人民啊,現在顯然人民還有很多疑問,對不對。立法院光是經濟委員會很多委員都有疑問啊,好不好。"},{"start":140.373,"end":145.739,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":160.219,"end":183.542,"text":"大停電不算停電,粉飾太平嘛,你就說沒有蓋牌。媒體,所有大的媒體都說你們是蓋牌的。可是你們後來我發現,你們經濟部還發了一個《台電始終嚴格遵循國際標準進行供電的可靠度統計》。寶定,你教經濟部,你們真的都是用了國際標準進行嗎?"},{"start":189.048,"end":212.845,"text":"國際的這個標準同步名的,大家遵循的就是國際IEEE嘛,對不對?你敢遵循這個?你等一下來,我給你看,來來來,你看一下。國際的IEEE,大家在網站上面可以看到,它的標準是什麼?它的單位是什麼?每一年一戶幾間,對不對?它的單位是不是每一年每一戶幾次?"},{"start":215.069,"end":241.947,"text":"是不是?國際的標準它大概是兩項啦,一個是SETI一個是SAFE啦。可是最一般用的標準是這個嘛,你現在把這個東西蓋牌啦,所以你出現大停電全部都不算停電啊。博定,來來來,給博定回答,博定你說一下,在平安問你啊,你說518大停電省一蓋,啊,國際要用的分母是那個耶,你現在要去做,"},{"start":243.203,"end":245.404,"text":"為什麼815592萬戶為什麼出來是0.553次的戶根每年?那台灣的總戶數多少?"},{"start":269.346,"end":287.757,"text":"告白控別0.9嘛。809萬點9千戶。那個是分母啊。你現在把分母拿掉了。我問你最簡單的。518大停電是590萬戶。如果有一個停電是59萬戶。它出來的單位會變成什麼?會變成0.053嘛對不對?是不是這樣?這兩個東西是不一樣的。來來我再給你看下一張。所以我要問你。我如果用的是國際的標準。"},{"start":299.115,"end":316.583,"text":"我上禮拜跟你講的,蔡英文任內平均跳電次數加上大停電是民國102年到105年2.2倍,跳電時間是2.6倍。這個圖只要把大停電放回去,這個圖有錯嗎?你們怎麼發了一個聲明說你們才是國際標準,我這個不是呢?"},{"start":317.54,"end":338.647,"text":"按照這個國際標準,一一就是啊。請問湊在哪裡?標準是一致啦。標準是一致的。委員講到的停電的次數,當然停了多少戶只要超過一分鐘,台電都算。那委員在講的停電的影響的satisafing,他會看的是停電的戶數跟停電的時間。所以台電在網站上..."},{"start":344.509,"end":350.793,"text":"五十二萬戶跟五戶當年審查,當年都不一樣啊!不然你現在在我們的網路上看到的,他就是這樣子講!八位委員,你在我們網路上看到就是國際上這樣算的啊!所以我們都有列出來啊!"},{"start":362.989,"end":390.616,"text":"國際上這個是剛剛給你跳回到前面一張,它的單位就是左邊這個啊,每一年每一戶每一次啊。是,我們在網上上也是這樣揭露啊。對啊,啊你們把大庭店,把815變成一次,你的戶到哪裡去了?次數的統計它是一次,但是它對Satisafi的影響是不一樣。所以你把戶弄掉了嘛,大庭店弄掉了,所以就變成戶就沒有了嘛。沒有,包圍沒有弄掉,網上上你看得到,它國際上的做法。有兩種,結果今天你要再多多,真相只有一個嘛。"},{"start":392.086,"end":396.753,"text":"國際上用的是保護放進去,你保護拿走的都是真相,來看下一張,來來來,現在還有一個大問題,你們這個,你們現在拉著,一直在講國際,來來,再來再來,來。"},{"start":404.96,"end":432.906,"text":"你們一直講,這經濟部的新聞稿對不對?是不是?這新聞稿對不對?沒錯吧?依照國際IEE1366的標準,人為的疏忽跟天災等重大的大停電事故,統計上因為離開這個群組,所以紀錄沒辦法去改善。所以你講一句話很重要,這你經濟部說的喔。國際、人民,包括韓國的韓電、日本的九州電力,都是把重大事故排除在外面。這是你嚇的對不對?"},{"start":434.858,"end":463.183,"text":"拜訪委員他們的做法有不同的方式啦。有些國際的電業他們會納進來。你說日本九州電力跟你們是一樣的,你們用國際標準。哇你看本席特別上了日本九州電力公司的網站。大家現在可以站起來。大家現在剪進電腦上去看。我給你們看右下角這個。你剛才說你們的重大事故,紅胎跌宕,大庭店都沒剩。"},{"start":464.212,"end":491.542,"text":"右下角這個是日本九州電力的,右下角這個土地名下上面,影響的包括什麼?紅胎、地震,對不對?他們跟你一樣嗎?保安委員,等一下,你有保定一樣嗎?你的新聞稿,你的經濟發展新聞稿,你說我跟日本九州電力公司是一樣的,我現在給你看,日本九州電力公司跟你就是不一樣!"},{"start":492.622,"end":511.932,"text":"不是,它這個是另外的一個報告啦齁那在呈現總的報告的時候事實上我們去看臺電的呈現方式跟這個很多國家就是我另外用家住把它寫得很清楚那這個也是參考小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小小"},{"start":524.566,"end":544.842,"text":"他們停電的時間每年每戶多少時間?115分鐘幾次?0.15包括電力颱風都有影響啊來來來我再給你看下一張可是你看左邊是人家日本的九州的這邊這張是你們台電的啦你們台電目前呈現的是這一張"},{"start":545.987,"end":571.139,"text":"你跟他有一樣嗎?你們把大庭店蓋掉了嘛,所以你跟人家不一樣,結果你還是拉人家說日本九州電力,欸,日本九州電力公司會不會來抗議啊?委員,巴委員,我們在網上上其實所有的數字都有公布啦。欸,有啦,你們弄一個小小小小,然後你們就用右邊這一張。那個字體也沒有比較小啦,委員,都是一樣的字體啦。這大家都可以公平,小的非常多,而且你們新聞稿都在強調右邊這個啊。"},{"start":572.78,"end":596.985,"text":"你們都是大停電、不算停電以後的啊。來啦來啦,我們用比較理性、務實的。我都給你看這個數據對不對。我拿的都是你們台電的資料跟人家日本九州的清清楚楚啊。這都是真的嘛,對不對。來,看後一張。真正的圖應該這樣啦。對面是你們台電自己做的。你如果真的要跟日本的九州電力一樣,你這兩個圖都要改成右邊這個啦。"},{"start":598.544,"end":599.685,"text":"五、中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":621.664,"end":631.852,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發"},{"start":647.265,"end":659.956,"text":"adequate個別的事故的那個部分確實是發生了可是你這個趨勢是要告訴說每年的努力在電網韌性在設備的更新上有沒有進步也不是說蓋掉因為他那個的人為操作因為這個也是我們參考國際上我把這個圖送給台電啦"},{"start":672.23,"end":692.222,"text":"你們至少把右邊這個圖放上去好不好?你們現在都要給民眾看的那左邊多好多好,然後次數多少,時間都是變好的。那事實上就電力的韌性。他這邊有個高峰起來對不對?到了109年又有高峰起來,你就是把這四次的大停電把它放上去,學人家。"},{"start":693.183,"end":720.243,"text":"日本九州電力好不好不要弄到日本九州都要來看那再請行政部門我最後做個結論好來我們看後面這個好所以你的新聞稿經濟部新聞局黃色這地方國際上如韓國韓電日本九州電力等都重大事故也沒有呈現在他網站上面你要跟人家道歉人家有呈現對不對有沒有我剛給他看看有沒有呈現你說沒有"},{"start":722.725,"end":741.305,"text":"你們要不要跟人家道歉啊?這兩個問題耶!我們再確認一下,因為我們看的是他年度的報告,那這一個剛才委員講,我們再回去看一下他放的位置。我聽說這不是內部啦,這是你們...沒有沒有,我是說他網站放的部分。"},{"start":742.026,"end":757.106,"text":"你們發這個新聞稿是要否認我上禮拜講的我今天第一個我跟你講我上禮拜的東西依據你們的數據所以完全你都承認嘛沒有錯嘛對不對第一個我現在是講兩個很重要的問題你講人家日本九州"},{"start":758.027,"end":758.047,"text":"閱讀委員會長"},{"start":775.657,"end":775.677,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}}}}