{"id":152194,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a681660dcdfdb0d414c84bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d4240f758f6481162cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:16:46 - 10:26:18","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":572,"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:26:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:16:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時16分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長好。次長，我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則，尤其是第四條，我想先請次長再簡單的表示一下，因為從剛剛到現在，其實每個委員都有不同的考慮面向，次長，基於地方自治和財源自籌的狀況，其實我們放寬一點，讓地方可以調整，今天主要修法的方向是這樣，財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意？"],["李次長慶華：因為這一次兩個委員提案修正的版本，其實只是把第四條的所謂地方稅的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：漲幅的部分嘛！"],["李次長慶華：講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅，但其實我們第四條原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅，所以這一次修法不涉及到實質的變動，其實還是跟我們原來的立法意旨相符，所以只是將文字明確化。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以不但影響不會太大，而且說實在的，對後面的稅基等等項目其實都沒有做到調整？"],["李次長慶華：都沒有做到調整。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這樣聽起來，其實財政部的立場也是支持的就對了？"],["李次長慶華：財政部是尊重今天委員會的意見，然後也看看委員會最後的審查結果是什麼，我們尊重。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，其實我們也是從地方來的，所以任何能夠幫地方找到更多財源，尤其是能夠立法更清楚，讓大家好做事，地方政府在做事的時候也有所本，這樣的修法方向我們都能夠支持。所以如果對於第四條的修法，財政部的立場是如此的話，我也想跟您請教一下第六條的部分，第六條第二項的最後有規定了一個備查，「備查」這二個字，次長，我想請問，依據地方制度法，備查的意義是怎麼樣？定義是如何？"],["李次長慶華：備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方自治條例……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我就說「備查」二個字。"],["李次長慶華：是，它就只是讓我們知悉啦！"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，如果依照地方制度法的話，其實備查就應該是知悉而已嘛！"],["李次長慶華：對，知悉。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想請問一下，現在中央有多少件地方稅相關的案件送上來以後，你們做成的決議是不予備查？有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：有，有不予備查的案件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有不予備查？"],["李次長慶華：有，有不予備查的案件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼可以有不予備查？不予備查的效力會是如何？"],["李次長慶華：基本上，第一個，因為地方稅法通則第三條還是有規定要開徵的特別稅課、臨時稅課或附加稅課，有下列事項是不得開徵的，譬如第一個是「轄區外之交易」，第二個是「流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品等」，第三個是「經營範圍跨越轄區之公用事業」……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，你不用唸條文給我聽，這沒有問題。"],["李次長慶華：對，這幾款規定的就是不能開徵的項目，如果有地方政府經地方自治條例通過要針對這些不得開徵的項目來開徵這些稅課的話，即使報到我們財政部來備查，因為我們的備查程序除了財政部之外，我們還要會同內政部、行政院……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯，自治監督機關指的就是內政部嘛！"],["李次長慶華：還有相關的監督機關，譬如說……"],["蘇委員巧慧：主計總處？"],["李次長慶華：像礦石稅會有經濟部，所以我們會有相關的機關一起來討論。如果它是違法課徵的行為，我們就不予備查。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長，說到這裡，你不覺得有點矛盾嗎？備查只是知悉，所以你用不予備查，不就等於是有審核的狀況了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：對，可是我們還要審核。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講，如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該、不能，法律規定你不能開徵這些項目，但是你偏偏又開徵了，難道我就眼睜睜地看著你繼續違法下去嗎？這好像也不太對啊！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這兩者都對，但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下，第六條是不是也應該如同你現在在修第四條，要讓它語意更清楚一點？"],["李次長慶華：是，原則上第六條因為它用「備查」這兩個字，其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相符。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["李次長慶華：因為我們是有實質審查的效果。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯啊！"],["李次長慶華：雖然我們審查的是適法性，但是事實上還是有實質審查的效果。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，所以現在這個地方也應該做一些……至少在字義上面的調整、文字上面的調整。我剛剛就說了嘛！基於地方自治、財源自籌，我們應該可以放寬，可是國家有國家的制度要遵守，每個部會也都有大家應該要盡的責任，要審查的部分要能夠清楚。好，如果中央、地方大家都有權責，又希望把事情弄清楚才好做事的話，那就是像今天一樣，第四條可以這樣修正的話，那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條的文字是不是也要把它修正，讓大家更清楚、更好做事嘛！"],["李次長慶華：是，但今天提案只有提修正第四條。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那當然。"],["李次長慶華：如果委員們後續有要調整第六條，有相關的修正意見……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得財政部自己也可以討論啊！因為如果從這個第六條……今天你從第四條的文字，到現在我提出來第六條的文字，甚至我們再進一步而言，如果今天你要採取的是實質審核了，我覺得這是一種方向。那麼配套的部分，我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去，其實只有幾條？一共才10條而已耶！而且第十條還是「本通則自公布日施行」，其實是非常單純，就只有9條。應該是非常簡單，不是單純而是簡單，只有9條而已。","在這樣的狀況下，其實就應該要搭配您剛剛說的，在第三條這麼大的空間裡面，你要搭配實質審核、實質審查，才會比較有道理嘛！好，如果你要繼續維持備查的狀況，那就只是「知悉」囉！如果是知悉的話，是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面，要就它的項目，甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定，地方才知道哪一些是可以做，哪一些是不可以做，做了以後會有什麼效果啊！","所以我覺得，老實說，這個地方稅法通則是民國91年定的，今天都已經是幾年了？其實今天修第四條應該只是一個起點，我覺得整部其實都可以來討論應該要怎麼讓它更完善一點。比如說後面是實質審查，中央有這樣的資格，還是中央就是備查，但前面把它訂得完整一點，讓地方覺得我還是照自己的來做，但我知道規範有更清楚一點，我覺得這是可以討論的方向，這是第一件事情。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果再細究下去，我認為還應該討論什麼呢？你看看像第三條，您剛剛要解釋的，第三條裡面，它的第一項第二款有說「流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品等」，次長，這個部分大概指的是什麼項目啊？"],["李次長慶華：譬如說水泥，或者是水資源……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有水資源嘛！"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我今天就問你，剛剛我們在講的這個第四條，其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等，你說這些都可以。好，像淡水河流域在我新北市，凡事經過這裡的，因為我要整治這個流域，所以我也來課徵一個特別的地方稅，這樣可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，有某個縣市政府曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源，也就是水資源來課稅，這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反「不得課徵」的項目，所以我們就不准它課徵。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，不得課徵嘛！對不對？因為這樣就變成，此路是我開，所以留下買路錢，這當然是不行。可是反過來，如果大家是為了維護環境，可以課徵特別的稅，那我要整治我的水環境……好，我不要就新北市特別來講好了，我把整個流域經過的縣市都聯合起來可以嗎？我把幾個縣市但凡有淡水河經過的，統統聯合起來一起做，這樣可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：這個基本上還是……如果依照現行法律的規定應該還是不行的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以啊！你就會讓人家產生有大小心的感覺，我同樣是維護環境，為什麼我新北市就不行？對不對？"],["李次長慶華：不是新北市不行，而是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是整個有這樣狀況的都不行，只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛！"],["李次長慶華：其實主要是因為那個天然資源是流通的，它可能會流通到全省各地方縣市，所以如果基本上針對這個流通全國的天然資源來課稅的話，這會影響到整個其他……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這樣我就會繼續挑戰你，那礦石為什麼就不是屬於……"],["李次長慶華：目前我們對於礦……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！採礦的行為為什麼就不是？"],["李次長慶華：目前是花蓮跟宜蘭，那是針對他們轄區內礦區的開採行為來課稅。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長，我覺得是這樣子啦！這個問題可以辯論很久，也可以各舉很多的例子，因為我的時間到了，所以我也不占用其他委員的時間，但我真心地認為，這樣一部民國91年制定，只有10條的通則，實在是很有全部翻修的空間。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白，這是我強烈的建議，我們也會來思考，如何提出自己的版本，謝謝次長。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請李彥秀李委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"id":"152194","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152194","tool":"pyannote","id":"152194-pyannote"},"job_id":"p9uxJkThQx9ZTWBy","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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\"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"己\", \"start\": 570.012, \"end\": 570.112, \"score\": 0.974}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 570.112, \"end\": 570.252, \"score\": 0.986}, {\"word\": \"版\", \"start\": 570.252, \"end\": 570.472, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 570.472, \"end\": 570.872, \"score\": 0.93}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"市\", \"start\": 570.872, \"end\": 570.892, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"長\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,103 --> 00:00:00,263\n秦理次長\n\n2\n00:00:15,223 --> 00:00:40,903\n市長我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則尤其是在講到第四條那我想先請市長再簡單的表示一下因為從剛剛到現在其實每個委員都有不同的考慮的面向市長基於地方自治和財源自籌這樣的狀況其實我們放寬一點讓地方可以調整今天主要修法的方向是這樣那財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意啊\n\n3\n00:00:41,713 --> 00:01:06,417\n因為這次兩個委員提案修正的版本他其實只是把第四條的所謂的地方稅的這個講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅但是其實我們第四條本來他就原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅所以這次修法其實他不涉及到整個這個實質的變動他其實還是跟我們原來立法的意旨相符的\n\n4\n00:01:07,017 --> 00:01:09,099\n財政部尊重各個委員會今天的意見,然後也看看委員會最後的審查結果是什麼?\n\n5\n00:01:27,176 --> 00:01:29,158\n第4條財政部的立場是如此的話那我也想跟您請教一下我們第6條的部分\n\n6\n00:01:50,696 --> 00:02:12,602\n第6條的部分其實在第二項的最後他其實有講了一個備查備查兩個字那次長我想請問依據地方制度法備查它的意義是怎麼樣定義是如何備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方制度法律我就說備查兩個字他只是就是讓我們知悉對\n\n7\n00:02:14,002 --> 00:02:15,144\n您們的作成的決議是不予被查\n\n8\n00:02:29,907 --> 00:02:52,778\n有不予被查的案件為什麼可以有不予被查?那不予被查的效力會是如何?基本上第一個因為我們地方稅法通則第三條它還是有規定說你要開徵的特別稅客或者臨時稅客或附加稅客有下列事項是不得開徵的\n\n9\n00:02:53,978 --> 00:03:03,283\n對,比如第一項你是轄區外的交易第二個流通至轄區外的天然資源或跨產品等等或者是它經營的範圍跨越了轄區的對,就這幾條這幾項是不能開徵的項目那如果說有地方它如果它已經地方自治條例通過\n\n10\n00:03:40,193 --> 00:03:52,643\n市長,你不覺得說到這裡有點矛盾嗎?被查只是知悉所以你用不予被查不就是等於是有審核的狀況了嗎?可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講的話如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該不能法律規定你不能開徵這些項目但是你偏偏又開徵了那難道我就眼睜睜的看著你繼續這樣違法下去嗎?這好像也不太對啊\n\n11\n00:04:06,614 --> 00:04:32,855\n所以這兩者都對但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下那第6條是不是我們也應該如同你現在在修第4條一樣讓它可以語意更清楚一點是原則上第6條當然因為它的用被查這兩個字其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相對因為我們是有實質審查的效果沒有錯啊雖然我們審查的是適當性而是法性但是還是有實質審查的效果是\n\n12\n00:04:34,116 --> 00:05:02,536\n所以今天這個地方就是也應該做一些至少字義上面的調整文字上面的調整我剛剛就說了嘛基於地方自治財源自籌我們應該可以放寬可是國家有國家的制度應該遵守每個部會也都有應該大家應該要盡的責任要審查的部分要能夠清楚好那如果中央地方大家都有權責又希望把事情弄清楚的話好做事那就是像今天一樣啦那你第四條這樣可以修正的話那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條\n\n13\n00:05:27,620 --> 00:05:44,359\n今天你要採取的是實質審核了好那我覺得這是一種方向那麼配套著我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去其實只有幾條一共才10條而已欸而且第10條還是本通則自公佈日實施其實是非常單純就只有9條非常簡單不是單純是簡單只有9條而已那\n\n14\n00:05:49,764 --> 00:06:17,822\n這樣的狀況下其實就應該要搭配上您剛剛說的第三條這樣的這麼大的空間裡面你要搭配實質審核實質審查才會比較有道理嘛好如果你要繼續維持著這個被查的狀況那就只是知悉囉那如果是知悉的話那是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面它就它的項目甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定地方才知道哪一些是可以做哪一些是不可以做做了以後會有什麼效果啊\n\n15\n00:06:18,462 --> 00:06:37,157\n所以我覺得啦,老實說這個地方稅法通則是民國91年訂的今天都已經是幾年了我們是不是應該就這整部其實今天修第四條應該是一個起點我覺得其實整部都可以來討論應該要怎麼樣可以讓它更完善一點是比如說後面是實質審查中央有這樣的資格\n\n16\n00:06:40,760 --> 00:07:03,486\n還是是中央就是備查但前面把它定的完整一點讓地方覺得我還是照自己做但我知道規範更清楚一點我覺得這是可以討論的方向啦這是第一件事情好那如果再細究下去我認為還應該討論什麼呢你看看像第三條您剛剛要解釋的第三條裡面吶它的第一項第二款裡面有說流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品這個部分\n\n17\n00:07:06,782 --> 00:07:33,404\n市長,這個大概指的是什麼項目啊?就是譬如說水泥啊,或者是水資源啊。水資源嗎?好,那我今天就問你了,剛剛我們在講的這個第四條啊,其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等,你說這些都可以。好,那如果是我新北市呢,我就淡水河流域,凡是經過這裡的,那我都要來,因為我要整治這個流域,所以我也來課這一個特別的地方稅,這樣可不可以?\n\n18\n00:07:33,864 --> 00:07:50,896\n報告委員,我們曾經有某個縣市政府,他們曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源,就是水資源來克稅。這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反這個不得克徵的項目。好,不得克徵嘛,對不對?因為這樣就變成是此路是我開。\n\n19\n00:07:51,596 --> 00:07:51,776\n所以啊﹖\n\n20\n00:08:20,137 --> 00:08:37,905\n你就會讓人家產生覺得有大小新的感覺啊我同樣是維護環境啊為什麼我新北市就不行對不對不是新北市不行是整個這樣有這樣的狀況的都不行只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛其實不是主要是因為剛好那個天然資源它是流通的\n\n21\n00:09:03,993 --> 00:09:30,892\n市長我覺得是這樣子啦這個問題可以辯論很久也可以各舉很多的例子因為我的時間到了所以我也不占用其他委員時間但我真心的認為這樣一部民國91年制定的只有10條的通則實在是很有全部翻修的空間了這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白這是我強烈的建議我們也會來思考這個如何提出自己的版本謝謝市長\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n103\t263\t秦理次長\n15223\t40903\t市長我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則尤其是在講到第四條那我想先請市長再簡單的表示一下因為從剛剛到現在其實每個委員都有不同的考慮的面向市長基於地方自治和財源自籌這樣的狀況其實我們放寬一點讓地方可以調整今天主要修法的方向是這樣那財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意啊\n41713\t66417\t因為這次兩個委員提案修正的版本他其實只是把第四條的所謂的地方稅的這個講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅但是其實我們第四條本來他就原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅所以這次修法其實他不涉及到整個這個實質的變動他其實還是跟我們原來立法的意旨相符的\n67017\t69099\t財政部尊重各個委員會今天的意見,然後也看看委員會最後的審查結果是什麼?\n87176\t89158\t第4條財政部的立場是如此的話那我也想跟您請教一下我們第6條的部分\n110696\t132602\t第6條的部分其實在第二項的最後他其實有講了一個備查備查兩個字那次長我想請問依據地方制度法備查它的意義是怎麼樣定義是如何備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方制度法律我就說備查兩個字他只是就是讓我們知悉對\n134002\t135144\t您們的作成的決議是不予被查\n149907\t172778\t有不予被查的案件為什麼可以有不予被查?那不予被查的效力會是如何?基本上第一個因為我們地方稅法通則第三條它還是有規定說你要開徵的特別稅客或者臨時稅客或附加稅客有下列事項是不得開徵的\n173978\t183283\t對,比如第一項你是轄區外的交易第二個流通至轄區外的天然資源或跨產品等等或者是它經營的範圍跨越了轄區的對,就這幾條這幾項是不能開徵的項目那如果說有地方它如果它已經地方自治條例通過\n192568\t219172\t⋯⋯⋯⋯\n220193\t232643\t市長,你不覺得說到這裡有點矛盾嗎?被查只是知悉所以你用不予被查不就是等於是有審核的狀況了嗎?可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講的話如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該不能法律規定你不能開徵這些項目但是你偏偏又開徵了那難道我就眼睜睜的看著你繼續這樣違法下去嗎?這好像也不太對啊\n246614\t272855\t所以這兩者都對但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下那第6條是不是我們也應該如同你現在在修第4條一樣讓它可以語意更清楚一點是原則上第6條當然因為它的用被查這兩個字其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相對因為我們是有實質審查的效果沒有錯啊雖然我們審查的是適當性而是法性但是還是有實質審查的效果是\n274116\t302536\t所以今天這個地方就是也應該做一些至少字義上面的調整文字上面的調整我剛剛就說了嘛基於地方自治財源自籌我們應該可以放寬可是國家有國家的制度應該遵守每個部會也都有應該大家應該要盡的責任要審查的部分要能夠清楚好那如果中央地方大家都有權責又希望把事情弄清楚的話好做事那就是像今天一樣啦那你第四條這樣可以修正的話那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條\n303677\t327500\t⋯⋯⋯\n327620\t344359\t今天你要採取的是實質審核了好 那我覺得這是一種方向那麼配套著我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去其實只有幾條一共才10條而已欸而且第10條還是本通則自公佈日實施其實是非常單純就只有9條非常簡單不是單純是簡單只有9條而已那\n349764\t377822\t這樣的狀況下其實就應該要搭配上您剛剛說的第三條這樣的這麼大的空間裡面你要搭配實質審核實質審查才會比較有道理嘛好 如果你要繼續維持著這個被查的狀況那就只是知悉囉那如果是知悉的話那是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面它就它的項目甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定地方才知道哪一些是可以做哪一些是不可以做做了以後會有什麼效果啊\n378462\t397157\t所以我覺得啦,老實說這個地方稅法通則是民國91年訂的今天都已經是幾年了我們是不是應該就這整部其實今天修第四條應該是一個起點我覺得其實整部都可以來討論應該要怎麼樣可以讓它更完善一點是比如說後面是實質審查中央有這樣的資格\n400760\t423486\t還是是中央就是備查但前面把它定的完整一點讓地方覺得我還是照自己做但我知道規範更清楚一點我覺得這是可以討論的方向啦這是第一件事情好那如果再細究下去我認為還應該討論什麼呢你看看像第三條您剛剛要解釋的第三條裡面吶它的第一項第二款裡面有說流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品這個部分\n426782\t453404\t市長,這個大概指的是什麼項目啊?就是譬如說水泥啊,或者是水資源啊。水資源嗎?好,那我今天就問你了,剛剛我們在講的這個第四條啊,其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等,你說這些都可以。好,那如果是我新北市呢,我就淡水河流域,凡是經過這裡的,那我都要來,因為我要整治這個流域,所以我也來課這一個特別的地方稅,這樣可不可以?\n453864\t470896\t報告委員,我們曾經有某個縣市政府,他們曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源,就是水資源來克稅。這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反這個不得克徵的項目。好,不得克徵嘛,對不對?因為這樣就變成是此路是我開。\n471596\t471776\t所以啊﹖\n500137\t517905\t你就會讓人家產生覺得有大小新的感覺啊我同樣是維護環境啊為什麼我新北市就不行對不對不是新北市不行是整個這樣有這樣的狀況的都不行只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛其實不是主要是因為剛好那個天然資源它是流通的\n519206\t543933\t⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n543993\t570892\t市長我覺得是這樣子啦這個問題可以辯論很久也可以各舉很多的例子因為我的時間到了所以我也不占用其他委員時間但我真心的認為這樣一部民國91年制定的只有10條的通則實在是很有全部翻修的空間了這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白這是我強烈的建議我們也會來思考這個如何提出自己的版本謝謝市長\n","txt":"秦理次長\n市長我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則尤其是在講到第四條那我想先請市長再簡單的表示一下因為從剛剛到現在其實每個委員都有不同的考慮的面向市長基於地方自治和財源自籌這樣的狀況其實我們放寬一點讓地方可以調整今天主要修法的方向是這樣那財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意啊\n因為這次兩個委員提案修正的版本他其實只是把第四條的所謂的地方稅的這個講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅但是其實我們第四條本來他就原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅所以這次修法其實他不涉及到整個這個實質的變動他其實還是跟我們原來立法的意旨相符的\n財政部尊重各個委員會今天的意見,然後也看看委員會最後的審查結果是什麼?\n第4條財政部的立場是如此的話那我也想跟您請教一下我們第6條的部分\n第6條的部分其實在第二項的最後他其實有講了一個備查備查兩個字那次長我想請問依據地方制度法備查它的意義是怎麼樣定義是如何備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方制度法律我就說備查兩個字他只是就是讓我們知悉對\n您們的作成的決議是不予被查\n有不予被查的案件為什麼可以有不予被查?那不予被查的效力會是如何?基本上第一個因為我們地方稅法通則第三條它還是有規定說你要開徵的特別稅客或者臨時稅客或附加稅客有下列事項是不得開徵的\n對,比如第一項你是轄區外的交易第二個流通至轄區外的天然資源或跨產品等等或者是它經營的範圍跨越了轄區的對,就這幾條這幾項是不能開徵的項目那如果說有地方它如果它已經地方自治條例通過\n⋯⋯⋯⋯\n市長,你不覺得說到這裡有點矛盾嗎?被查只是知悉所以你用不予被查不就是等於是有審核的狀況了嗎?可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講的話如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該不能法律規定你不能開徵這些項目但是你偏偏又開徵了那難道我就眼睜睜的看著你繼續這樣違法下去嗎?這好像也不太對啊\n所以這兩者都對但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下那第6條是不是我們也應該如同你現在在修第4條一樣讓它可以語意更清楚一點是原則上第6條當然因為它的用被查這兩個字其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相對因為我們是有實質審查的效果沒有錯啊雖然我們審查的是適當性而是法性但是還是有實質審查的效果是\n所以今天這個地方就是也應該做一些至少字義上面的調整文字上面的調整我剛剛就說了嘛基於地方自治財源自籌我們應該可以放寬可是國家有國家的制度應該遵守每個部會也都有應該大家應該要盡的責任要審查的部分要能夠清楚好那如果中央地方大家都有權責又希望把事情弄清楚的話好做事那就是像今天一樣啦那你第四條這樣可以修正的話那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條\n⋯⋯⋯\n今天你要採取的是實質審核了好 那我覺得這是一種方向那麼配套著我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去其實只有幾條一共才10條而已欸而且第10條還是本通則自公佈日實施其實是非常單純就只有9條非常簡單不是單純是簡單只有9條而已那\n這樣的狀況下其實就應該要搭配上您剛剛說的第三條這樣的這麼大的空間裡面你要搭配實質審核實質審查才會比較有道理嘛好 如果你要繼續維持著這個被查的狀況那就只是知悉囉那如果是知悉的話那是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面它就它的項目甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定地方才知道哪一些是可以做哪一些是不可以做做了以後會有什麼效果啊\n所以我覺得啦,老實說這個地方稅法通則是民國91年訂的今天都已經是幾年了我們是不是應該就這整部其實今天修第四條應該是一個起點我覺得其實整部都可以來討論應該要怎麼樣可以讓它更完善一點是比如說後面是實質審查中央有這樣的資格\n還是是中央就是備查但前面把它定的完整一點讓地方覺得我還是照自己做但我知道規範更清楚一點我覺得這是可以討論的方向啦這是第一件事情好那如果再細究下去我認為還應該討論什麼呢你看看像第三條您剛剛要解釋的第三條裡面吶它的第一項第二款裡面有說流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品這個部分\n市長,這個大概指的是什麼項目啊?就是譬如說水泥啊,或者是水資源啊。水資源嗎?好,那我今天就問你了,剛剛我們在講的這個第四條啊,其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等,你說這些都可以。好,那如果是我新北市呢,我就淡水河流域,凡是經過這裡的,那我都要來,因為我要整治這個流域,所以我也來課這一個特別的地方稅,這樣可不可以?\n報告委員,我們曾經有某個縣市政府,他們曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源,就是水資源來克稅。這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反這個不得克徵的項目。好,不得克徵嘛,對不對?因為這樣就變成是此路是我開。\n所以啊﹖\n你就會讓人家產生覺得有大小新的感覺啊我同樣是維護環境啊為什麼我新北市就不行對不對不是新北市不行是整個這樣有這樣的狀況的都不行只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛其實不是主要是因為剛好那個天然資源它是流通的\n⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯\n市長我覺得是這樣子啦這個問題可以辯論很久也可以各舉很多的例子因為我的時間到了所以我也不占用其他委員時間但我真心的認為這樣一部民國91年制定的只有10條的通則實在是很有全部翻修的空間了這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白這是我強烈的建議我們也會來思考這個如何提出自己的版本謝謝市長\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.103 --> 00:00.263\n秦理次長\n\n00:15.223 --> 00:40.903\n市長我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則尤其是在講到第四條那我想先請市長再簡單的表示一下因為從剛剛到現在其實每個委員都有不同的考慮的面向市長基於地方自治和財源自籌這樣的狀況其實我們放寬一點讓地方可以調整今天主要修法的方向是這樣那財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意啊\n\n00:41.713 --> 01:06.417\n因為這次兩個委員提案修正的版本他其實只是把第四條的所謂的地方稅的這個講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅但是其實我們第四條本來他就原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅所以這次修法其實他不涉及到整個這個實質的變動他其實還是跟我們原來立法的意旨相符的\n\n01:07.017 --> 01:09.099\n財政部尊重各個委員會今天的意見,然後也看看委員會最後的審查結果是什麼?\n\n01:27.176 --> 01:29.158\n第4條財政部的立場是如此的話那我也想跟您請教一下我們第6條的部分\n\n01:50.696 --> 02:12.602\n第6條的部分其實在第二項的最後他其實有講了一個備查備查兩個字那次長我想請問依據地方制度法備查它的意義是怎麼樣定義是如何備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方制度法律我就說備查兩個字他只是就是讓我們知悉對\n\n02:14.002 --> 02:15.144\n您們的作成的決議是不予被查\n\n02:29.907 --> 02:52.778\n有不予被查的案件為什麼可以有不予被查?那不予被查的效力會是如何?基本上第一個因為我們地方稅法通則第三條它還是有規定說你要開徵的特別稅客或者臨時稅客或附加稅客有下列事項是不得開徵的\n\n02:53.978 --> 03:03.283\n對,比如第一項你是轄區外的交易第二個流通至轄區外的天然資源或跨產品等等或者是它經營的範圍跨越了轄區的對,就這幾條這幾項是不能開徵的項目那如果說有地方它如果它已經地方自治條例通過\n\n03:40.193 --> 03:52.643\n市長,你不覺得說到這裡有點矛盾嗎?被查只是知悉所以你用不予被查不就是等於是有審核的狀況了嗎?可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講的話如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該不能法律規定你不能開徵這些項目但是你偏偏又開徵了那難道我就眼睜睜的看著你繼續這樣違法下去嗎?這好像也不太對啊\n\n04:06.614 --> 04:32.855\n所以這兩者都對但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下那第6條是不是我們也應該如同你現在在修第4條一樣讓它可以語意更清楚一點是原則上第6條當然因為它的用被查這兩個字其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相對因為我們是有實質審查的效果沒有錯啊雖然我們審查的是適當性而是法性但是還是有實質審查的效果是\n\n04:34.116 --> 05:02.536\n所以今天這個地方就是也應該做一些至少字義上面的調整文字上面的調整我剛剛就說了嘛基於地方自治財源自籌我們應該可以放寬可是國家有國家的制度應該遵守每個部會也都有應該大家應該要盡的責任要審查的部分要能夠清楚好那如果中央地方大家都有權責又希望把事情弄清楚的話好做事那就是像今天一樣啦那你第四條這樣可以修正的話那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條\n\n05:27.620 --> 05:44.359\n今天你要採取的是實質審核了好那我覺得這是一種方向那麼配套著我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去其實只有幾條一共才10條而已欸而且第10條還是本通則自公佈日實施其實是非常單純就只有9條非常簡單不是單純是簡單只有9條而已那\n\n05:49.764 --> 06:17.822\n這樣的狀況下其實就應該要搭配上您剛剛說的第三條這樣的這麼大的空間裡面你要搭配實質審核實質審查才會比較有道理嘛好如果你要繼續維持著這個被查的狀況那就只是知悉囉那如果是知悉的話那是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面它就它的項目甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定地方才知道哪一些是可以做哪一些是不可以做做了以後會有什麼效果啊\n\n06:18.462 --> 06:37.157\n所以我覺得啦,老實說這個地方稅法通則是民國91年訂的今天都已經是幾年了我們是不是應該就這整部其實今天修第四條應該是一個起點我覺得其實整部都可以來討論應該要怎麼樣可以讓它更完善一點是比如說後面是實質審查中央有這樣的資格\n\n06:40.760 --> 07:03.486\n還是是中央就是備查但前面把它定的完整一點讓地方覺得我還是照自己做但我知道規範更清楚一點我覺得這是可以討論的方向啦這是第一件事情好那如果再細究下去我認為還應該討論什麼呢你看看像第三條您剛剛要解釋的第三條裡面吶它的第一項第二款裡面有說流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品這個部分\n\n07:06.782 --> 07:33.404\n市長,這個大概指的是什麼項目啊?就是譬如說水泥啊,或者是水資源啊。水資源嗎?好,那我今天就問你了,剛剛我們在講的這個第四條啊,其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等,你說這些都可以。好,那如果是我新北市呢,我就淡水河流域,凡是經過這裡的,那我都要來,因為我要整治這個流域,所以我也來課這一個特別的地方稅,這樣可不可以?\n\n07:33.864 --> 07:50.896\n報告委員,我們曾經有某個縣市政府,他們曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源,就是水資源來克稅。這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反這個不得克徵的項目。好,不得克徵嘛,對不對?因為這樣就變成是此路是我開。\n\n07:51.596 --> 07:51.776\n所以啊﹖\n\n08:20.137 --> 08:37.905\n你就會讓人家產生覺得有大小新的感覺啊我同樣是維護環境啊為什麼我新北市就不行對不對不是新北市不行是整個這樣有這樣的狀況的都不行只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛其實不是主要是因為剛好那個天然資源它是流通的\n\n09:03.993 --> 09:30.892\n市長我覺得是這樣子啦這個問題可以辯論很久也可以各舉很多的例子因為我的時間到了所以我也不占用其他委員時間但我真心的認為這樣一部民國91年制定的只有10條的通則實在是很有全部翻修的空間了這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白這是我強烈的建議我們也會來思考這個如何提出自己的版本謝謝市長\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.103,"end":0.263,"text":"秦理次長"},{"start":15.223,"end":40.903,"text":"市長我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則尤其是在講到第四條那我想先請市長再簡單的表示一下因為從剛剛到現在其實每個委員都有不同的考慮的面向市長基於地方自治和財源自籌這樣的狀況其實我們放寬一點讓地方可以調整今天主要修法的方向是這樣那財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意啊"},{"start":41.713,"end":66.417,"text":"因為這次兩個委員提案修正的版本他其實只是把第四條的所謂的地方稅的這個講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅但是其實我們第四條本來他就原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅所以這次修法其實他不涉及到整個這個實質的變動他其實還是跟我們原來立法的意旨相符的"},{"start":67.017,"end":69.099,"text":"財政部尊重各個委員會今天的意見,然後也看看委員會最後的審查結果是什麼?"},{"start":87.176,"end":89.158,"text":"第4條財政部的立場是如此的話那我也想跟您請教一下我們第6條的部分"},{"start":110.696,"end":132.602,"text":"第6條的部分其實在第二項的最後他其實有講了一個備查備查兩個字那次長我想請問依據地方制度法備查它的意義是怎麼樣定義是如何備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方制度法律我就說備查兩個字他只是就是讓我們知悉對"},{"start":134.002,"end":135.144,"text":"您們的作成的決議是不予被查"},{"start":149.907,"end":172.778,"text":"有不予被查的案件為什麼可以有不予被查?那不予被查的效力會是如何?基本上第一個因為我們地方稅法通則第三條它還是有規定說你要開徵的特別稅客或者臨時稅客或附加稅客有下列事項是不得開徵的"},{"start":173.978,"end":183.283,"text":"對,比如第一項你是轄區外的交易第二個流通至轄區外的天然資源或跨產品等等或者是它經營的範圍跨越了轄區的對,就這幾條這幾項是不能開徵的項目那如果說有地方它如果它已經地方自治條例通過"},{"start":192.568,"end":219.172,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":220.193,"end":232.643,"text":"市長,你不覺得說到這裡有點矛盾嗎?被查只是知悉所以你用不予被查不就是等於是有審核的狀況了嗎?可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講的話如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該不能法律規定你不能開徵這些項目但是你偏偏又開徵了那難道我就眼睜睜的看著你繼續這樣違法下去嗎?這好像也不太對啊"},{"start":246.614,"end":272.855,"text":"所以這兩者都對但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下那第6條是不是我們也應該如同你現在在修第4條一樣讓它可以語意更清楚一點是原則上第6條當然因為它的用被查這兩個字其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相對因為我們是有實質審查的效果沒有錯啊雖然我們審查的是適當性而是法性但是還是有實質審查的效果是"},{"start":274.116,"end":302.536,"text":"所以今天這個地方就是也應該做一些至少字義上面的調整文字上面的調整我剛剛就說了嘛基於地方自治財源自籌我們應該可以放寬可是國家有國家的制度應該遵守每個部會也都有應該大家應該要盡的責任要審查的部分要能夠清楚好那如果中央地方大家都有權責又希望把事情弄清楚的話好做事那就是像今天一樣啦那你第四條這樣可以修正的話那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條"},{"start":303.677,"end":327.5,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":327.62,"end":344.359,"text":"今天你要採取的是實質審核了好 那我覺得這是一種方向那麼配套著我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去其實只有幾條一共才10條而已欸而且第10條還是本通則自公佈日實施其實是非常單純就只有9條非常簡單不是單純是簡單只有9條而已那"},{"start":349.764,"end":377.822,"text":"這樣的狀況下其實就應該要搭配上您剛剛說的第三條這樣的這麼大的空間裡面你要搭配實質審核實質審查才會比較有道理嘛好 如果你要繼續維持著這個被查的狀況那就只是知悉囉那如果是知悉的話那是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面它就它的項目甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定地方才知道哪一些是可以做哪一些是不可以做做了以後會有什麼效果啊"},{"start":378.462,"end":397.157,"text":"所以我覺得啦,老實說這個地方稅法通則是民國91年訂的今天都已經是幾年了我們是不是應該就這整部其實今天修第四條應該是一個起點我覺得其實整部都可以來討論應該要怎麼樣可以讓它更完善一點是比如說後面是實質審查中央有這樣的資格"},{"start":400.76,"end":423.486,"text":"還是是中央就是備查但前面把它定的完整一點讓地方覺得我還是照自己做但我知道規範更清楚一點我覺得這是可以討論的方向啦這是第一件事情好那如果再細究下去我認為還應該討論什麼呢你看看像第三條您剛剛要解釋的第三條裡面吶它的第一項第二款裡面有說流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品這個部分"},{"start":426.782,"end":453.404,"text":"市長,這個大概指的是什麼項目啊?就是譬如說水泥啊,或者是水資源啊。水資源嗎?好,那我今天就問你了,剛剛我們在講的這個第四條啊,其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等,你說這些都可以。好,那如果是我新北市呢,我就淡水河流域,凡是經過這裡的,那我都要來,因為我要整治這個流域,所以我也來課這一個特別的地方稅,這樣可不可以?"},{"start":453.864,"end":470.896,"text":"報告委員,我們曾經有某個縣市政府,他們曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源,就是水資源來克稅。這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反這個不得克徵的項目。好,不得克徵嘛,對不對?因為這樣就變成是此路是我開。"},{"start":471.596,"end":471.776,"text":"所以啊﹖"},{"start":500.137,"end":517.905,"text":"你就會讓人家產生覺得有大小新的感覺啊我同樣是維護環境啊為什麼我新北市就不行對不對不是新北市不行是整個這樣有這樣的狀況的都不行只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛其實不是主要是因為剛好那個天然資源它是流通的"},{"start":519.206,"end":543.933,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":543.993,"end":570.892,"text":"市長我覺得是這樣子啦這個問題可以辯論很久也可以各舉很多的例子因為我的時間到了所以我也不占用其他委員時間但我真心的認為這樣一部民國91年制定的只有10條的通則實在是很有全部翻修的空間了這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白這是我強烈的建議我們也會來思考這個如何提出自己的版本謝謝市長"}]}}}}