{"id":152291,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152291","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71471b08dd036f04276811336f4541176936499d1b681a2ac76035e15dacbeac855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:49:21 - 10:02:46","影片長度":"00:13:25","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來-故宮定位與部會級博物館公共責任總檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-11"},"duration":805,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:02:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:49:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時49分）謝謝主席，有請故宮蕭宗煌院長。"],["主席：有請蕭院長。"],["蕭院長宗煌：葛委員早。"],["葛委員如鈞：早安。我想還是很感謝院長願意擔當，剛剛有很多委員都已經問了，您也表達期望留任，我先給您鼓勵。現在有很多讓大家誤解，覺得故宮螺絲掉滿地，有庫房管理的問題、有點交是在翠玉白菜旁邊的問題，接下來我們還有故宮百年院慶的挑戰，可能還會面臨到行政院有意要降為三級機關，希望大家到時候一起來努力，我想文物、故宮都是對我們人類、對臺灣的文化都非常重要的。我想也要非常感謝召委週一安排前往故宮考察，在簡報的時候，故宮這邊有提出兩個院務非常大的挑戰，一個是人力的問題，一個是庫房典藏人力的不足，其實都是人力，這兩個問題其實最終都會關乎到館藏文物的本身，在場所有的委員都非常重視，剛剛大家都問過了，我在這裡要再問一次，請問院長為什麼不積極的向行政院爭取擴編法定員額？"],["蕭院長宗煌：這個部分我們還在努力，因為總員額法當然是有限制……"],["葛委員如鈞：總員額法有限制，我們來看一下……"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為以故宮現在來講，我們每年都刪減人力……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們已經替院長跟行政院人事總處問過了，人事總處表示這個法定預算員351人，實際員額只有303人，還有48個缺額，為什麼說我們人力不足？為什麼有員額法的限制？而且他們根本不會去管你們怎麼樣的流用，故宮的人力到底在哪裡？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，48個人就是因為依照行政慣例，內閣改組人事凍結，沒有補。另外一部分，它要申請分發任用。另外所謂的員額，有預算員額跟實際員額，如果預算員額，主計處沒有給錢，雖然我們有那個員額，基本上我們等於是一個空殼子，那個是沒有辦法領薪水。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，人事總處就是表示還有員額。接下來就是管理的問題，我們一起來努力，好不好？"],["蕭院長宗煌：是，這個部分，我們會進行人事的總檢討。"],["葛委員如鈞：再來是庫房人力的問題，我們故宮的資料，包含技工在內，一共50人，要典管70萬件的文物，平均一個人要典管1萬4,000件文物，以全年上班250天來講，我們算過了，每個人每天不吃、不喝、不休息，中午還不能吃便當，每10分鐘，一天要check56件文物是否安然無恙，庫房管理人員是不是就打開看一下，確認還在，看一眼就關上，是這樣子嗎？請確認一下，現在典藏文物確認狀態到底是怎麼樣，時間根本不夠、人力根本不足嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：依照博物館法，故宮博物院20年都要做一個全院的總盤點，所有的文物都要檢點過，例行性的話是每一季是由院長……"],["葛委員如鈞：現在50個人的盤點……"],["蕭院長宗煌：由院長、單位主管會進行抽點，抽點基本上是檢視文物，一般的盤點，基本上是屬於秘書室財產的數量，數量和文物盤點不一樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長，我們之後還要更多的交流，我們已經幫你算過了，告訴一下院長盤點的時間，上一次從民國97年一路盤點到101年，總共花費了超過1,000天，三年七個月才把70萬件文物盤點完，現在民國113年，距離上次盤點12年，我們接下來很快就要面對20年盤點大限，我們可能還要再花三、四年的時間來盤點嗎？我們在考察的時候，看到你們有引入新的方法，以前的方法真的沒辦法，我們現在引入新的方法，以RFID的方式來管理，老實說，我們等於在iPhone的時代又引入了Nokia 3310，我們不能沾沾自喜。我們來看一下國外的例子，華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點，我們臺灣也有國立臺灣歷史博物館的案例，導入智慧科技輔助人力管理，用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏文物，取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作，而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕、有沒有問題，大幅的縮短人力，我想請教一下院長，能不能再一次的確認？我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI，不只保存文化，也要來做訓練館藏盤點的技術？能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議，一個月內將評估報告以書面提供給本席？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我依照委員意見來辦理。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，我想我們一起努力。另外，文物修護人力不足的問題，我們看過了，編制內的文物修護人力只有12人，12人！在座的大家都沒有聽錯，以70萬件的管藏來計算，等於每個修護人力要處理五萬八千多件的文物修護，文物修護還有很多的部分，包括預防性保存、修護、科學方法分析等等，我們已經算過了，以目前的修護量能，事實上要花930年才能把館藏文物修護一遍。我們特別跟教育部調了資料，近三年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人，我們再看一次這個員額，能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力，可不可以？"],["蕭院長宗煌：博物館的文物保存、維護，它有一個邏輯，並不是每年給它翻出來看一次，因為基本上，譬如限展文物，我們就是要讓它睡三年、三年都要保持在一個非常穩定的階段，所以……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起！院長，我時間有限，我打斷你。負面的理由，我們都理解，但是問題我們要解決，不是只是把困難說出來，不然這些文物還是持續在老化、我們修護人力還是持續的不足，我想這不是我們負責任的態度。我們繼續再來關注一下，剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題，結果我們來看，故宮修護的計畫裡頭，在新故宮計畫裡面，南院要用46億來興建國寶館，這個國寶館還要一邊修護，一邊給大家看，我想確認一下，那天參訪的時候，院長也說國寶館只編列興建建物的預算，裡面可能還沒有硬體，甚至可能還沒有修護的額外人力，我想確認一下，裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡？是不是還沒有著落？確認一下，院長能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為新故宮計畫基本上是一個營建經費……"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有編列？現在有沒有國寶館的硬體、軟體、人力的預算，有還是沒有？"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本的設備……"],["葛委員如鈞：116年要開了，115年要完工。"],["蕭院長宗煌：基本的設備是沒有問題，但是專業的修護設備不能在這個時候買，這個時候買，等到我們蓋好之後，它已經又過了幾年了。"],["葛委員如鈞：那人力呢？人力的訓練、人力的培育呢？"],["蕭院長宗煌：人力的部分……"],["葛委員如鈞：多兩位，是不是？這是比「YA」，是說一定夠？還是多兩位，還是多20位？"],["蕭院長宗煌：多兩位。人力的部分，我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作，讓他們在學校之後第二階段的延伸、實務訓練，幫故宮也幫忙這些研究所畢業的學生有……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝院長，我時間有限。我希望院長是不是可以當場表示我們會有修正計畫，這個人力講出來都是不合理的啦！我們有沒有修正的計畫，還是我們乾脆要停工，想清楚國寶館到底有沒有足夠的規劃，再進行復工？"],["蕭院長宗煌：委員，我們會做一個人力的總盤點，然後在修護的人力儘量想辦法……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們再來問一下院長，整建之後，北院將增加多少展示空間？大家都想看文物啊！27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點。"],["蕭院長宗煌：故宮北院整修之後，會有……"],["葛委員如鈞：49億元啊！我們會提供多少新的展示空間？"],["蕭院長宗煌：北院會增加2,000平方米的空間。"],["葛委員如鈞：2,000平方米是不是？2,000平方米，我們再來評估一下夠不夠。現在文件的展示率，事實上只有0.1%，各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%，我們已經算過了，如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講，要1,000年才能全部展出一輪，真的是可能有一些藏品，我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到，千年等一回，這樣的比例，不管是跟臺灣的，還是跟全世界的比較起來，真的都是倒數全球。我想這不是我們想要看到的，因為大家到故宮就是要看展品，2,000坪的增加到底夠不夠？我們增加更多的可能是咖啡廳、玻璃亭，這真的是我們民眾要的嗎？我想請教一下，到底這個增建計畫的資料，你們是公布在哪裡啊？我們現在看到的這個資料，我們是怎麼樣？我們看到有什麼空間模擬動畫、有什麼視覺的圖，在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱？"],["蕭院長宗煌：因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段，還沒有定案，沒有定案的……"],["葛委員如鈞：民眾都不用知道嗎？民眾非常關心啊！"],["蕭院長宗煌：沒有定案的東西po出來，容易照成誤導……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們竟然還要自己去買雜誌喔！雜誌的第49頁有一個QR code，QR code查進去有這些東西，這是怎麼樣？是報導獨家嗎？還是要促銷這個雜誌？我相信都不是啊！能不能請院長今天質詢以後，三天內將整建計畫的相關資訊放上官網，並且建立專區，讓各界可以早一點來提供建議？可不可以這樣做？"],["蕭院長宗煌：容我詢問我們副座，因為他管工程……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們整建，民眾有權知道、有權關心吧？還是要去買雜誌才能知道，還要掃碼？"],["黃副院長永泰：我們可以整理之後提供。"],["葛委員如鈞：上網好不好？上到故宮官網。我們今天還是非常友善的提醒院長，最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放，各界對於成果褒貶不一，提出很多的質詢，事實上，各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回復，甚至是做一些未來穿越時空的確認，其實可以用VR跟AR來高解析度的重現巴黎聖母院的細節，其實民眾就有機會可以用一支手機或者一個虛擬實境的頭盔先預覽我們要花49億整修的北院的計畫，國寶館也可以讓大家體驗一下，請院長利用VR、AR虛擬實境的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌，我覺得國寶館都可以考慮，能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議，並將研議結果於一個月內以書面提供給本席，可以嗎？"],["蕭院長宗煌：我跟委員報告一下，我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段……"],["葛委員如鈞：還沒確定啦！所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃亭嘛，對不對？"],["蕭院長宗煌：對，因為不可能讓建築師把他們通通弄出來，因為它有一個審議程序，審議程序通過以後，同意這樣的……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以一個月還不夠？"],["蕭院長宗煌：一年，因為他要做細部設計，你不能叫建築師在三個月裡把圖畫出來……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，再給我30秒。我們設計完，到時候大家民眾都不滿意，覺得這空間不夠，是不是就改變不了了？"],["蕭院長宗煌：跟委員報告一下，設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議，審議完了之後還要進到都發局建築設計……"],["葛委員如鈞：那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家？讓大家可以用怎麼樣的方式來預覽？減少爭議嘛！"],["蕭院長宗煌：起碼一年，因為我不能用一個虛擬的說未來博物館蓋起來是這個樣子，因為這是跟建築師的一個合約關係……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想各國都在用更多的方法來拉近跟民眾的距離，來確保這些東西符合大家的期待……"],["蕭院長宗煌：不能以一個虛擬的博物館來作為真正博物館……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝院長，召委再給我20秒。這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動，從文物保存跟修復的觀點來看，有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的，人類扮演更加重要的角色，未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作，相輔相成，我們一起來努力，讓資源運用效率最大化，也要讓人力做合理、妥善的安排，讓故宮進入一個更好的狀態，好嗎？謝謝。"],["蕭院長宗煌：謝謝委員，委員是這方面的專家，我們會再跟委員請教。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員、謝謝院長。接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-11","speakers":["林宜瑾","萬美玲","柯志恩","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","吳春城","葉元之","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","范雲","林楚茵","陳冠廷"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-08"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國立故宮博物院院長蕭宗煌列席就「回首百年放眼未來─ 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0.035}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 797.205, \"end\": 797.325, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"葛\", \"start\": 797.325, \"end\": 797.345, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 797.345, \"end\": 797.365, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"鈞\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,466 --> 00:00:12,750\n謝謝主席有請故宮蕭宗煌院長有請蕭院長\n\n2\n00:00:18,665 --> 00:00:29,167\n各位很早好謝謝早安我想還是很感謝院長願意擔當剛剛有很多委員都已經問了您也表達您期望留任我先給您鼓勵現在有很多這種讓大家誤解覺得故宮螺絲吊滿地有庫房管理的問題有點焦在翠玉白菜旁邊的問題接下來我們還有故宮百年願慶的挑戰可能還會面臨到行政院有議可能要來降為三級機關\n\n3\n00:00:47,651 --> 00:01:09,286\n希望大家到時候一起來努力我想文物故宮都是對我們人類對台灣的文化都非常重要的那我想這個也要非常感謝昭偉週一安排前往故宮考察那在檢報的時候故宮這邊有提出兩個願務的非常大的挑戰一個是人力的問題一個是庫藏典房人力的不足其實都是人力\n\n4\n00:01:10,927 --> 00:01:24,158\n這兩個問題其實最終都會關乎到館藏文物的本身在場所有的委員都非常的重視在這裡剛剛大家都問過了我要再問一次請問院長為什麼不積極的向行政院爭取擴編法定原額\n\n5\n00:01:26,735 --> 00:01:47,800\n這個部分我們還努力因為總原額法當然是有限制總原額法有限制嗎我們來看一下我們有跟行政院的這個人事總處我們替院長已經問過了人事總處表示這個原額法定預算約351人實際原額只有303人還有48個缺額為什麼說我們人力不足\n\n6\n00:01:53,261 --> 00:02:15,753\n為什麼有原額法的限制而且他們根本不會去管你們怎麼樣的流用啊故宮的人力到底在哪裡跟委員報告一下48個人的話就是因為依照那個行政慣例就那個改組的話人是凍結沒有補另外一部分的話就是說他要申請分化證用那\n\n7\n00:02:16,593 --> 00:02:37,303\n另外的話就是說所謂的緣額的話有預算緣額跟實際緣額如果預算緣額主計處沒有給錢的話我們有那個緣額的話基本上來講的話我們等於是一個空殼子沒關係人事總處就是表示還有緣額接下來就是管理的問題我們一起來努力好不好我想再來是庫房人力的問題我們故宮的資料\n\n8\n00:02:39,284 --> 00:02:58,655\n包含技工在內一共50人要點館70萬件的文物平均一個人要點館14000件文物以全年上班250天來講我們算過了每個人每天不吃不喝不休息每10分鐘中午還不能吃便當每10分鐘一天要來check56件文物是否安然無恙\n\n9\n00:02:59,375 --> 00:03:09,920\n庫房管理員是不是就打開看一下還在一眼就關上是這樣子嗎請確認一下現在這個典藏文物確認的狀態到底是怎麼樣時間根本不夠人力根本不足\n\n10\n00:03:10,643 --> 00:03:34,338\n依照博物館法的話故宮博物院20年的話要做一個前院的總盤點所以所有的文物都要檢點過那例行性的話是每一季有像50個人的盤點院長然後那個單位主管的話會進行抽點抽點的話基本上來講的話是檢視文物那一般的盤點的話基本上來講的話是屬於秘書室的那個財產的數量謝謝謝謝院長\n\n11\n00:03:37,620 --> 00:03:43,464\n我們之後還要更多的交流我們已經幫你算過了告訴一下院長我們現在的這個盤點時間上一次從民國97年一路盤點到101年總共花費了超過1000天3年7個月才把70萬件文物盤點完現在民國113年距離上次盤點12年我們接下來很快就要面對20年盤點大限我們可能還要再花3、4年的時間來盤點嗎\n\n12\n00:04:06,497 --> 00:04:32,847\n我們在考察的時候看到就是說我們有引入新的方法以前的方法那這個沒辦法我們現在引入新的方法RFID的方式來管理老實說我們等於在iPhone的時代又引入了Nokia3310我們不能沾沾自喜我們來看一下國外的例子華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點\n\n13\n00:04:34,207 --> 00:04:56,185\n我們台灣也有國立台灣歷史博物館的案例導入智慧科技輔助人力管理用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏物取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕有沒有問題大幅的縮短人力我想請教一下院長能不能\n\n14\n00:04:57,006 --> 00:05:11,552\n再一次的確認我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI不只保存文化也要來做訓練管藏盤頂的技術能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議一個院內將評估報告以書面提供給本席\n\n15\n00:05:13,701 --> 00:05:39,931\n我依照委員意見來辦理好謝謝我想我們一起努力另外一個文物修復人力不足的問題我們看過了編制內的文物修復人力只有12人12人在座的大家都沒有聽錯70萬件的館藏來計算等於每個修復人力要處理58000多件的文物修復文物修復還有很多的部分啦預防性保存啦修復啦科學方法分析啦等等我們已經算過了\n\n16\n00:05:40,971 --> 00:06:02,357\n事實上要花930年以目前的修復量能才能把館藏文物修復一遍我們特別跟教育部調了資料近3年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人我們再看一次這個緣額能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力可不可以\n\n17\n00:06:03,717 --> 00:06:16,444\n博物館的文物保存維護它有一個邏輯並不是每年給它翻出來看一次因為基本上來講的話比如說現展文物的話我們就是要讓它睡三年三年保持在一個穩定的一個階段\n\n18\n00:06:18,365 --> 00:06:37,094\n我直接有些我打斷你齁負面的理由我們都理解但是問題我們要解決不是只是把困難說出來那不然這些文物還是持續的在老化這些我們修復能力還是持續的不足我想這不是我們負責任的態度齁我想我們繼續再來關注一下齁\n\n19\n00:06:38,695 --> 00:06:40,356\n剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題結果我們來看這個故宮修復的計畫裡頭我們在新故宮的計畫裡面南院用46億要來興建國保館那這個國保館還要一邊修復一邊給大家看\n\n20\n00:06:57,071 --> 00:07:13,168\n那我想確認一下那天參訪的時候院長也說國寶萬子編列新建建物的預算裡面可能還沒有硬體甚至可能還沒有修復的額外人力我想確認一下裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡是不是還沒有著落啊確認一下院長\n\n21\n00:07:14,349 --> 00:07:29,197\n能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題因為新故宮計畫基本上來講的話是一個營建經費有沒有編列現在有沒有國保館的硬體軟體人力的預算有還是沒有基本上116年要開了115年要完工\n\n22\n00:07:31,798 --> 00:07:32,398\n人力的培育呢?\n\n23\n00:07:32,398 --> 00:07:32,678\n多兩位是不是?\n\n24\n00:07:53,251 --> 00:08:05,881\n人力的部分的話我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作讓他們在學校之後的一個第二階段的一個延伸實務訓練然後幫故宮然後也幫忙這些\n\n25\n00:08:09,763 --> 00:08:11,484\n好我們再來問一下院長整建之後北院將增加多少展示空間\n\n26\n00:08:36,243 --> 00:09:02,468\n我們大家都想看文物阿27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點阿故宮北院整修之後49億元阿我們會提供多少新的展示空間北院的話會增加2000平方米的空間2000平方米是不是2000平方米我們再來評估一下夠不夠我們現在的文件的展示率事實上只有0.1%各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%\n\n27\n00:09:04,088 --> 00:09:21,089\n我們已經算過了如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講要一千年才能全部展出一輪真的是有可能有些藏品我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到千年等一回這樣的比例在很多的不管是台灣的還是全世界的比起來\n\n28\n00:09:21,610 --> 00:09:37,399\n真的都是倒數全球我想這不是我們想要看到的因為大家到故宮就是要看展品兩千坪的增加到底夠不夠我們增加了更多的可能是咖啡廳玻璃亭這真的是我們民眾要的嗎我想請教一下到底這個增建計畫的資料你們是公布在哪裡我們現在看到這個資料\n\n29\n00:09:47,364 --> 00:09:55,826\n我們是怎麼樣在看到這個有什麼空間模擬動畫啦有什麼視覺的圖啊在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱啊\n\n30\n00:09:56,448 --> 00:10:25,697\n因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段還沒有定案民眾都不用知道嗎?民眾非常關心啊我們竟然還要去自己買雜誌喔雜誌的第49頁有一個QRcodeQRcode查進去有這些東西這怎麼樣?是報導獨家嗎?還是要促銷這個雜誌?我相信都不是啊能不能請院長今天質詢以後三天內將整件進化的相關資訊放上官網並且建立專區讓各界可以早一點來提供建議啊可不可以這樣做?\n\n31\n00:10:26,775 --> 00:10:28,841\n可以嗎?因為他管工程\n\n32\n00:10:34,704 --> 00:11:02,572\n我們整件民眾有權知道吧有權關心吧還是要去買雜誌才能知道還要掃碼我們可以整理之後提供上網好不好上到故宮官網我想我們今天還是非常友善提醒院長最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放各界對於成果褒貶不一提出很多的質詢那事實上各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回覆\n\n33\n00:11:03,192 --> 00:11:03,292\n主席\n\n34\n00:11:22,503 --> 00:11:25,285\n請院長將利用VR、AR虛擬實踐的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌。我覺得國保館都可以考慮,能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議,並將研議結果於一個月內。\n\n35\n00:11:39,375 --> 00:12:01,161\n已經夠了以書面提供的本席可以嗎跟委員報告一下就是說我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段還沒確定啦所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃體嘛對不對不可能讓建築師說把他完整的通通弄出來因為這個他有一個審議程序審議程序通過以後同意這樣的試驗所以一個月還不夠一個月還不夠\n\n36\n00:12:03,888 --> 00:12:28,741\n一年因為他要做細部設計你不能叫建築師說三個月以內把圖畫出然後一個月設對不起再給我30秒那我們設計完到之後我們都大家民眾都不滿意覺得這空間不夠跟委員報告一下設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議審議完了之後還要進到那個杜花吉建築設計那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家\n\n37\n00:12:29,481 --> 00:12:30,923\n我提一下這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動\n\n38\n00:12:55,784 --> 00:13:17,365\n從文物保存跟秀物的觀點來看有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的人類扮演更加重要的角色未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作相輔相成我們一起來努力讓資源運用效率最大化也要讓人力做合理妥善的安排讓故宮來進入一個更好的狀態好嗎謝謝委員是這方面專家我們會再跟委員請教好謝謝葛如鈞\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10466\t12750\t謝謝主席有請故宮蕭宗煌院長有請蕭院長\n18665\t29167\t各位很早好謝謝早安我想還是很感謝院長願意擔當剛剛有很多委員都已經問了您也表達您期望留任我先給您鼓勵現在有很多這種讓大家誤解覺得故宮螺絲吊滿地有庫房管理的問題有點焦在翠玉白菜旁邊的問題接下來我們還有故宮百年願慶的挑戰可能還會面臨到行政院有議可能要來降為三級機關\n47651\t69286\t希望大家到時候一起來努力我想文物故宮都是對我們人類對台灣的文化都非常重要的那我想這個也要非常感謝昭偉週一安排前往故宮考察那在檢報的時候故宮這邊有提出兩個願務的非常大的挑戰一個是人力的問題一個是庫藏典房人力的不足其實都是人力\n70927\t84158\t這兩個問題其實最終都會關乎到館藏文物的本身在場所有的委員都非常的重視在這裡剛剛大家都問過了我要再問一次請問院長為什麼不積極的向行政院爭取擴編法定原額\n86735\t107800\t這個部分我們還努力因為總原額法當然是有限制總原額法有限制嗎我們來看一下我們有跟行政院的這個人事總處我們替院長已經問過了人事總處表示這個原額法定預算約351人實際原額只有303人還有48個缺額為什麼說我們人力不足\n113261\t135753\t為什麼有原額法的限制而且他們根本不會去管你們怎麼樣的流用啊故宮的人力到底在哪裡跟委員報告一下48個人的話就是因為依照那個行政慣例就那個改組的話人是凍結沒有補另外一部分的話就是說他要申請分化證用那\n136593\t157303\t另外的話就是說所謂的緣額的話有預算緣額跟實際緣額如果預算緣額主計處沒有給錢的話我們有那個緣額的話基本上來講的話我們等於是一個空殼子沒關係人事總處就是表示還有緣額接下來就是管理的問題我們一起來努力好不好我想再來是庫房人力的問題我們故宮的資料\n159284\t178655\t包含技工在內一共50人要點館70萬件的文物平均一個人要點館14000件文物以全年上班250天來講我們算過了每個人每天不吃不喝不休息每10分鐘中午還不能吃便當每10分鐘一天要來check56件文物是否安然無恙\n179375\t189920\t庫房管理員是不是就打開看一下還在一眼就關上是這樣子嗎請確認一下現在這個典藏文物確認的狀態到底是怎麼樣時間根本不夠人力根本不足\n190643\t214338\t依照博物館法的話故宮博物院20年的話要做一個前院的總盤點所以所有的文物都要檢點過那例行性的話是每一季有像50個人的盤點院長然後那個單位主管的話會進行抽點抽點的話基本上來講的話是檢視文物那一般的盤點的話基本上來講的話是屬於秘書室的那個財產的數量謝謝謝謝院長\n217620\t223464\t我們之後還要更多的交流我們已經幫你算過了告訴一下院長我們現在的這個盤點時間上一次從民國97年一路盤點到101年總共花費了超過1000天3年7個月才把70萬件文物盤點完現在民國113年距離上次盤點12年我們接下來很快就要面對20年盤點大限我們可能還要再花3、4年的時間來盤點嗎\n246497\t272847\t我們在考察的時候看到就是說我們有引入新的方法以前的方法那這個沒辦法我們現在引入新的方法RFID的方式來管理老實說我們等於在iPhone的時代又引入了Nokia 3310我們不能沾沾自喜我們來看一下國外的例子華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點\n274207\t296185\t我們台灣也有國立台灣歷史博物館的案例導入智慧科技輔助人力管理用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏物取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕有沒有問題大幅的縮短人力我想請教一下院長能不能\n297006\t311552\t再一次的確認我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI不只保存文化也要來做訓練管藏盤頂的技術能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議一個院內將評估報告以書面提供給本席\n313701\t339931\t我依照委員意見來辦理好 謝謝我想我們一起努力另外一個文物修復人力不足的問題我們看過了編制內的文物修復人力只有12人12人在座的大家都沒有聽錯70萬件的館藏來計算等於每個修復人力要處理58000多件的文物修復文物修復還有很多的部分啦預防性保存啦修復啦科學方法分析啦等等我們已經算過了\n340971\t362357\t事實上要花930年以目前的修復量能才能把館藏文物修復一遍我們特別跟教育部調了資料近3年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人我們再看一次這個緣額能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力可不可以\n363717\t376444\t博物館的文物保存維護它有一個邏輯並不是每年給它翻出來看一次因為基本上來講的話比如說現展文物的話我們就是要讓它睡三年三年保持在一個穩定的一個階段\n378365\t397094\t我直接有些我打斷你齁負面的理由我們都理解但是問題我們要解決不是只是把困難說出來那不然這些文物還是持續的在老化這些我們修復能力還是持續的不足我想這不是我們負責任的態度齁我想我們繼續再來關注一下齁\n398695\t400356\t剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題結果我們來看這個故宮修復的計畫裡頭我們在新故宮的計畫裡面南院用46億要來興建國保館那這個國保館還要一邊修復一邊給大家看\n417071\t433168\t那我想確認一下那天參訪的時候院長也說國寶萬子編列新建建物的預算裡面可能還沒有硬體甚至可能還沒有修復的額外人力我想確認一下裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡是不是還沒有著落啊確認一下院長\n434349\t449197\t能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題因為新故宮計畫基本上來講的話是一個營建經費有沒有編列現在有沒有國保館的硬體軟體人力的預算有還是沒有基本上116年要開了115年要完工\n451798\t452398\t人力的培育呢?\n452398\t452678\t多兩位是不是?\n473251\t485881\t人力的部分的話我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作讓他們在學校之後的一個第二階段的一個延伸實務訓練然後幫故宮然後也幫忙這些\n489763\t491484\t好 我們再來問一下院長整建之後北院將增加多少展示空間\n516243\t542468\t我們大家都想看文物阿27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點阿故宮北院整修之後49億元阿我們會提供多少新的展示空間北院的話會增加2000平方米的空間2000平方米是不是2000平方米我們再來評估一下夠不夠我們現在的文件的展示率事實上只有0.1%各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%\n544088\t561089\t我們已經算過了如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講要一千年才能全部展出一輪真的是有可能有些藏品我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到千年等一回這樣的比例在很多的不管是台灣的還是全世界的比起來\n561610\t577399\t真的都是倒數全球我想這不是我們想要看到的因為大家到故宮就是要看展品兩千坪的增加到底夠不夠我們增加了更多的可能是咖啡廳玻璃亭這真的是我們民眾要的嗎我想請教一下到底這個增建計畫的資料你們是公布在哪裡我們現在看到這個資料\n587364\t595826\t我們是怎麼樣在看到這個有什麼空間模擬動畫啦有什麼視覺的圖啊在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱啊\n596448\t625697\t因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段還沒有定案民眾都不用知道嗎?民眾非常關心啊我們竟然還要去自己買雜誌喔雜誌的第49頁有一個QR codeQR code查進去有這些東西這怎麼樣?是報導獨家嗎?還是要促銷這個雜誌?我相信都不是啊能不能請院長今天質詢以後三天內將整件進化的相關資訊放上官網並且建立專區讓各界可以早一點來提供建議啊可不可以這樣做?\n626775\t628841\t可以嗎?因為他管工程\n634704\t662572\t我們整件民眾有權知道吧有權關心吧還是要去買雜誌才能知道還要掃碼我們可以整理之後提供上網好不好上到故宮官網我想我們今天還是非常友善提醒院長最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放各界對於成果褒貶不一提出很多的質詢那事實上各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回覆\n663192\t663292\t主席\n682503\t685285\t請院長將利用VR、AR虛擬實踐的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌。我覺得國保館都可以考慮,能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議,並將研議結果於一個月內。\n699375\t721161\t已經夠了以書面提供的本席可以嗎跟委員報告一下就是說我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段還沒確定啦所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃體嘛對不對不可能讓建築師說把他完整的通通弄出來因為這個他有一個審議程序審議程序通過以後同意這樣的試驗所以一個月還不夠一個月還不夠\n723888\t748741\t一年因為他要做細部設計你不能叫建築師說三個月以內把圖畫出然後一個月設 對不起再給我30秒那我們設計完到之後我們都大家民眾都不滿意覺得這空間不夠跟委員報告一下設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議審議完了之後還要進到那個杜花吉建築設計那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家\n749481\t750923\t我提一下這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動\n775784\t797365\t從文物保存跟秀物的觀點來看有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的人類扮演更加重要的角色未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作相輔相成我們一起來努力讓資源運用效率最大化也要讓人力做合理妥善的安排讓故宮來進入一個更好的狀態好嗎 謝謝委員是這方面專家我們會再跟委員請教好 謝謝葛如鈞\n","txt":"謝謝主席有請故宮蕭宗煌院長有請蕭院長\n各位很早好謝謝早安我想還是很感謝院長願意擔當剛剛有很多委員都已經問了您也表達您期望留任我先給您鼓勵現在有很多這種讓大家誤解覺得故宮螺絲吊滿地有庫房管理的問題有點焦在翠玉白菜旁邊的問題接下來我們還有故宮百年願慶的挑戰可能還會面臨到行政院有議可能要來降為三級機關\n希望大家到時候一起來努力我想文物故宮都是對我們人類對台灣的文化都非常重要的那我想這個也要非常感謝昭偉週一安排前往故宮考察那在檢報的時候故宮這邊有提出兩個願務的非常大的挑戰一個是人力的問題一個是庫藏典房人力的不足其實都是人力\n這兩個問題其實最終都會關乎到館藏文物的本身在場所有的委員都非常的重視在這裡剛剛大家都問過了我要再問一次請問院長為什麼不積極的向行政院爭取擴編法定原額\n這個部分我們還努力因為總原額法當然是有限制總原額法有限制嗎我們來看一下我們有跟行政院的這個人事總處我們替院長已經問過了人事總處表示這個原額法定預算約351人實際原額只有303人還有48個缺額為什麼說我們人力不足\n為什麼有原額法的限制而且他們根本不會去管你們怎麼樣的流用啊故宮的人力到底在哪裡跟委員報告一下48個人的話就是因為依照那個行政慣例就那個改組的話人是凍結沒有補另外一部分的話就是說他要申請分化證用那\n另外的話就是說所謂的緣額的話有預算緣額跟實際緣額如果預算緣額主計處沒有給錢的話我們有那個緣額的話基本上來講的話我們等於是一個空殼子沒關係人事總處就是表示還有緣額接下來就是管理的問題我們一起來努力好不好我想再來是庫房人力的問題我們故宮的資料\n包含技工在內一共50人要點館70萬件的文物平均一個人要點館14000件文物以全年上班250天來講我們算過了每個人每天不吃不喝不休息每10分鐘中午還不能吃便當每10分鐘一天要來check56件文物是否安然無恙\n庫房管理員是不是就打開看一下還在一眼就關上是這樣子嗎請確認一下現在這個典藏文物確認的狀態到底是怎麼樣時間根本不夠人力根本不足\n依照博物館法的話故宮博物院20年的話要做一個前院的總盤點所以所有的文物都要檢點過那例行性的話是每一季有像50個人的盤點院長然後那個單位主管的話會進行抽點抽點的話基本上來講的話是檢視文物那一般的盤點的話基本上來講的話是屬於秘書室的那個財產的數量謝謝謝謝院長\n我們之後還要更多的交流我們已經幫你算過了告訴一下院長我們現在的這個盤點時間上一次從民國97年一路盤點到101年總共花費了超過1000天3年7個月才把70萬件文物盤點完現在民國113年距離上次盤點12年我們接下來很快就要面對20年盤點大限我們可能還要再花3、4年的時間來盤點嗎\n我們在考察的時候看到就是說我們有引入新的方法以前的方法那這個沒辦法我們現在引入新的方法RFID的方式來管理老實說我們等於在iPhone的時代又引入了Nokia 3310我們不能沾沾自喜我們來看一下國外的例子華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點\n我們台灣也有國立台灣歷史博物館的案例導入智慧科技輔助人力管理用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏物取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕有沒有問題大幅的縮短人力我想請教一下院長能不能\n再一次的確認我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI不只保存文化也要來做訓練管藏盤頂的技術能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議一個院內將評估報告以書面提供給本席\n我依照委員意見來辦理好 謝謝我想我們一起努力另外一個文物修復人力不足的問題我們看過了編制內的文物修復人力只有12人12人在座的大家都沒有聽錯70萬件的館藏來計算等於每個修復人力要處理58000多件的文物修復文物修復還有很多的部分啦預防性保存啦修復啦科學方法分析啦等等我們已經算過了\n事實上要花930年以目前的修復量能才能把館藏文物修復一遍我們特別跟教育部調了資料近3年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人我們再看一次這個緣額能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力可不可以\n博物館的文物保存維護它有一個邏輯並不是每年給它翻出來看一次因為基本上來講的話比如說現展文物的話我們就是要讓它睡三年三年保持在一個穩定的一個階段\n我直接有些我打斷你齁負面的理由我們都理解但是問題我們要解決不是只是把困難說出來那不然這些文物還是持續的在老化這些我們修復能力還是持續的不足我想這不是我們負責任的態度齁我想我們繼續再來關注一下齁\n剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題結果我們來看這個故宮修復的計畫裡頭我們在新故宮的計畫裡面南院用46億要來興建國保館那這個國保館還要一邊修復一邊給大家看\n那我想確認一下那天參訪的時候院長也說國寶萬子編列新建建物的預算裡面可能還沒有硬體甚至可能還沒有修復的額外人力我想確認一下裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡是不是還沒有著落啊確認一下院長\n能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題因為新故宮計畫基本上來講的話是一個營建經費有沒有編列現在有沒有國保館的硬體軟體人力的預算有還是沒有基本上116年要開了115年要完工\n人力的培育呢?\n多兩位是不是?\n人力的部分的話我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作讓他們在學校之後的一個第二階段的一個延伸實務訓練然後幫故宮然後也幫忙這些\n好 我們再來問一下院長整建之後北院將增加多少展示空間\n我們大家都想看文物阿27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點阿故宮北院整修之後49億元阿我們會提供多少新的展示空間北院的話會增加2000平方米的空間2000平方米是不是2000平方米我們再來評估一下夠不夠我們現在的文件的展示率事實上只有0.1%各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%\n我們已經算過了如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講要一千年才能全部展出一輪真的是有可能有些藏品我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到千年等一回這樣的比例在很多的不管是台灣的還是全世界的比起來\n真的都是倒數全球我想這不是我們想要看到的因為大家到故宮就是要看展品兩千坪的增加到底夠不夠我們增加了更多的可能是咖啡廳玻璃亭這真的是我們民眾要的嗎我想請教一下到底這個增建計畫的資料你們是公布在哪裡我們現在看到這個資料\n我們是怎麼樣在看到這個有什麼空間模擬動畫啦有什麼視覺的圖啊在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱啊\n因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段還沒有定案民眾都不用知道嗎?民眾非常關心啊我們竟然還要去自己買雜誌喔雜誌的第49頁有一個QR codeQR code查進去有這些東西這怎麼樣?是報導獨家嗎?還是要促銷這個雜誌?我相信都不是啊能不能請院長今天質詢以後三天內將整件進化的相關資訊放上官網並且建立專區讓各界可以早一點來提供建議啊可不可以這樣做?\n可以嗎?因為他管工程\n我們整件民眾有權知道吧有權關心吧還是要去買雜誌才能知道還要掃碼我們可以整理之後提供上網好不好上到故宮官網我想我們今天還是非常友善提醒院長最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放各界對於成果褒貶不一提出很多的質詢那事實上各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回覆\n主席\n請院長將利用VR、AR虛擬實踐的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌。我覺得國保館都可以考慮,能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議,並將研議結果於一個月內。\n已經夠了以書面提供的本席可以嗎跟委員報告一下就是說我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段還沒確定啦所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃體嘛對不對不可能讓建築師說把他完整的通通弄出來因為這個他有一個審議程序審議程序通過以後同意這樣的試驗所以一個月還不夠一個月還不夠\n一年因為他要做細部設計你不能叫建築師說三個月以內把圖畫出然後一個月設 對不起再給我30秒那我們設計完到之後我們都大家民眾都不滿意覺得這空間不夠跟委員報告一下設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議審議完了之後還要進到那個杜花吉建築設計那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家\n我提一下這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動\n從文物保存跟秀物的觀點來看有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的人類扮演更加重要的角色未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作相輔相成我們一起來努力讓資源運用效率最大化也要讓人力做合理妥善的安排讓故宮來進入一個更好的狀態好嗎 謝謝委員是這方面專家我們會再跟委員請教好 謝謝葛如鈞\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.466 --> 00:12.750\n謝謝主席有請故宮蕭宗煌院長有請蕭院長\n\n00:18.665 --> 00:29.167\n各位很早好謝謝早安我想還是很感謝院長願意擔當剛剛有很多委員都已經問了您也表達您期望留任我先給您鼓勵現在有很多這種讓大家誤解覺得故宮螺絲吊滿地有庫房管理的問題有點焦在翠玉白菜旁邊的問題接下來我們還有故宮百年願慶的挑戰可能還會面臨到行政院有議可能要來降為三級機關\n\n00:47.651 --> 01:09.286\n希望大家到時候一起來努力我想文物故宮都是對我們人類對台灣的文化都非常重要的那我想這個也要非常感謝昭偉週一安排前往故宮考察那在檢報的時候故宮這邊有提出兩個願務的非常大的挑戰一個是人力的問題一個是庫藏典房人力的不足其實都是人力\n\n01:10.927 --> 01:24.158\n這兩個問題其實最終都會關乎到館藏文物的本身在場所有的委員都非常的重視在這裡剛剛大家都問過了我要再問一次請問院長為什麼不積極的向行政院爭取擴編法定原額\n\n01:26.735 --> 01:47.800\n這個部分我們還努力因為總原額法當然是有限制總原額法有限制嗎我們來看一下我們有跟行政院的這個人事總處我們替院長已經問過了人事總處表示這個原額法定預算約351人實際原額只有303人還有48個缺額為什麼說我們人力不足\n\n01:53.261 --> 02:15.753\n為什麼有原額法的限制而且他們根本不會去管你們怎麼樣的流用啊故宮的人力到底在哪裡跟委員報告一下48個人的話就是因為依照那個行政慣例就那個改組的話人是凍結沒有補另外一部分的話就是說他要申請分化證用那\n\n02:16.593 --> 02:37.303\n另外的話就是說所謂的緣額的話有預算緣額跟實際緣額如果預算緣額主計處沒有給錢的話我們有那個緣額的話基本上來講的話我們等於是一個空殼子沒關係人事總處就是表示還有緣額接下來就是管理的問題我們一起來努力好不好我想再來是庫房人力的問題我們故宮的資料\n\n02:39.284 --> 02:58.655\n包含技工在內一共50人要點館70萬件的文物平均一個人要點館14000件文物以全年上班250天來講我們算過了每個人每天不吃不喝不休息每10分鐘中午還不能吃便當每10分鐘一天要來check56件文物是否安然無恙\n\n02:59.375 --> 03:09.920\n庫房管理員是不是就打開看一下還在一眼就關上是這樣子嗎請確認一下現在這個典藏文物確認的狀態到底是怎麼樣時間根本不夠人力根本不足\n\n03:10.643 --> 03:34.338\n依照博物館法的話故宮博物院20年的話要做一個前院的總盤點所以所有的文物都要檢點過那例行性的話是每一季有像50個人的盤點院長然後那個單位主管的話會進行抽點抽點的話基本上來講的話是檢視文物那一般的盤點的話基本上來講的話是屬於秘書室的那個財產的數量謝謝謝謝院長\n\n03:37.620 --> 03:43.464\n我們之後還要更多的交流我們已經幫你算過了告訴一下院長我們現在的這個盤點時間上一次從民國97年一路盤點到101年總共花費了超過1000天3年7個月才把70萬件文物盤點完現在民國113年距離上次盤點12年我們接下來很快就要面對20年盤點大限我們可能還要再花3、4年的時間來盤點嗎\n\n04:06.497 --> 04:32.847\n我們在考察的時候看到就是說我們有引入新的方法以前的方法那這個沒辦法我們現在引入新的方法RFID的方式來管理老實說我們等於在iPhone的時代又引入了Nokia3310我們不能沾沾自喜我們來看一下國外的例子華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點\n\n04:34.207 --> 04:56.185\n我們台灣也有國立台灣歷史博物館的案例導入智慧科技輔助人力管理用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏物取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕有沒有問題大幅的縮短人力我想請教一下院長能不能\n\n04:57.006 --> 05:11.552\n再一次的確認我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI不只保存文化也要來做訓練管藏盤頂的技術能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議一個院內將評估報告以書面提供給本席\n\n05:13.701 --> 05:39.931\n我依照委員意見來辦理好謝謝我想我們一起努力另外一個文物修復人力不足的問題我們看過了編制內的文物修復人力只有12人12人在座的大家都沒有聽錯70萬件的館藏來計算等於每個修復人力要處理58000多件的文物修復文物修復還有很多的部分啦預防性保存啦修復啦科學方法分析啦等等我們已經算過了\n\n05:40.971 --> 06:02.357\n事實上要花930年以目前的修復量能才能把館藏文物修復一遍我們特別跟教育部調了資料近3年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人我們再看一次這個緣額能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力可不可以\n\n06:03.717 --> 06:16.444\n博物館的文物保存維護它有一個邏輯並不是每年給它翻出來看一次因為基本上來講的話比如說現展文物的話我們就是要讓它睡三年三年保持在一個穩定的一個階段\n\n06:18.365 --> 06:37.094\n我直接有些我打斷你齁負面的理由我們都理解但是問題我們要解決不是只是把困難說出來那不然這些文物還是持續的在老化這些我們修復能力還是持續的不足我想這不是我們負責任的態度齁我想我們繼續再來關注一下齁\n\n06:38.695 --> 06:40.356\n剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題結果我們來看這個故宮修復的計畫裡頭我們在新故宮的計畫裡面南院用46億要來興建國保館那這個國保館還要一邊修復一邊給大家看\n\n06:57.071 --> 07:13.168\n那我想確認一下那天參訪的時候院長也說國寶萬子編列新建建物的預算裡面可能還沒有硬體甚至可能還沒有修復的額外人力我想確認一下裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡是不是還沒有著落啊確認一下院長\n\n07:14.349 --> 07:29.197\n能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題因為新故宮計畫基本上來講的話是一個營建經費有沒有編列現在有沒有國保館的硬體軟體人力的預算有還是沒有基本上116年要開了115年要完工\n\n07:31.798 --> 07:32.398\n人力的培育呢?\n\n07:32.398 --> 07:32.678\n多兩位是不是?\n\n07:53.251 --> 08:05.881\n人力的部分的話我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作讓他們在學校之後的一個第二階段的一個延伸實務訓練然後幫故宮然後也幫忙這些\n\n08:09.763 --> 08:11.484\n好我們再來問一下院長整建之後北院將增加多少展示空間\n\n08:36.243 --> 09:02.468\n我們大家都想看文物阿27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點阿故宮北院整修之後49億元阿我們會提供多少新的展示空間北院的話會增加2000平方米的空間2000平方米是不是2000平方米我們再來評估一下夠不夠我們現在的文件的展示率事實上只有0.1%各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%\n\n09:04.088 --> 09:21.089\n我們已經算過了如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講要一千年才能全部展出一輪真的是有可能有些藏品我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到千年等一回這樣的比例在很多的不管是台灣的還是全世界的比起來\n\n09:21.610 --> 09:37.399\n真的都是倒數全球我想這不是我們想要看到的因為大家到故宮就是要看展品兩千坪的增加到底夠不夠我們增加了更多的可能是咖啡廳玻璃亭這真的是我們民眾要的嗎我想請教一下到底這個增建計畫的資料你們是公布在哪裡我們現在看到這個資料\n\n09:47.364 --> 09:55.826\n我們是怎麼樣在看到這個有什麼空間模擬動畫啦有什麼視覺的圖啊在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱啊\n\n09:56.448 --> 10:25.697\n因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段還沒有定案民眾都不用知道嗎?民眾非常關心啊我們竟然還要去自己買雜誌喔雜誌的第49頁有一個QRcodeQRcode查進去有這些東西這怎麼樣?是報導獨家嗎?還是要促銷這個雜誌?我相信都不是啊能不能請院長今天質詢以後三天內將整件進化的相關資訊放上官網並且建立專區讓各界可以早一點來提供建議啊可不可以這樣做?\n\n10:26.775 --> 10:28.841\n可以嗎?因為他管工程\n\n10:34.704 --> 11:02.572\n我們整件民眾有權知道吧有權關心吧還是要去買雜誌才能知道還要掃碼我們可以整理之後提供上網好不好上到故宮官網我想我們今天還是非常友善提醒院長最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放各界對於成果褒貶不一提出很多的質詢那事實上各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回覆\n\n11:03.192 --> 11:03.292\n主席\n\n11:22.503 --> 11:25.285\n請院長將利用VR、AR虛擬實踐的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌。我覺得國保館都可以考慮,能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議,並將研議結果於一個月內。\n\n11:39.375 --> 12:01.161\n已經夠了以書面提供的本席可以嗎跟委員報告一下就是說我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段還沒確定啦所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃體嘛對不對不可能讓建築師說把他完整的通通弄出來因為這個他有一個審議程序審議程序通過以後同意這樣的試驗所以一個月還不夠一個月還不夠\n\n12:03.888 --> 12:28.741\n一年因為他要做細部設計你不能叫建築師說三個月以內把圖畫出然後一個月設對不起再給我30秒那我們設計完到之後我們都大家民眾都不滿意覺得這空間不夠跟委員報告一下設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議審議完了之後還要進到那個杜花吉建築設計那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家\n\n12:29.481 --> 12:30.923\n我提一下這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動\n\n12:55.784 --> 13:17.365\n從文物保存跟秀物的觀點來看有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的人類扮演更加重要的角色未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作相輔相成我們一起來努力讓資源運用效率最大化也要讓人力做合理妥善的安排讓故宮來進入一個更好的狀態好嗎謝謝委員是這方面專家我們會再跟委員請教好謝謝葛如鈞\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.466,"end":12.75,"text":"謝謝主席有請故宮蕭宗煌院長有請蕭院長"},{"start":18.665,"end":29.167,"text":"各位很早好謝謝早安我想還是很感謝院長願意擔當剛剛有很多委員都已經問了您也表達您期望留任我先給您鼓勵現在有很多這種讓大家誤解覺得故宮螺絲吊滿地有庫房管理的問題有點焦在翠玉白菜旁邊的問題接下來我們還有故宮百年願慶的挑戰可能還會面臨到行政院有議可能要來降為三級機關"},{"start":47.651,"end":69.286,"text":"希望大家到時候一起來努力我想文物故宮都是對我們人類對台灣的文化都非常重要的那我想這個也要非常感謝昭偉週一安排前往故宮考察那在檢報的時候故宮這邊有提出兩個願務的非常大的挑戰一個是人力的問題一個是庫藏典房人力的不足其實都是人力"},{"start":70.927,"end":84.158,"text":"這兩個問題其實最終都會關乎到館藏文物的本身在場所有的委員都非常的重視在這裡剛剛大家都問過了我要再問一次請問院長為什麼不積極的向行政院爭取擴編法定原額"},{"start":86.735,"end":107.8,"text":"這個部分我們還努力因為總原額法當然是有限制總原額法有限制嗎我們來看一下我們有跟行政院的這個人事總處我們替院長已經問過了人事總處表示這個原額法定預算約351人實際原額只有303人還有48個缺額為什麼說我們人力不足"},{"start":113.261,"end":135.753,"text":"為什麼有原額法的限制而且他們根本不會去管你們怎麼樣的流用啊故宮的人力到底在哪裡跟委員報告一下48個人的話就是因為依照那個行政慣例就那個改組的話人是凍結沒有補另外一部分的話就是說他要申請分化證用那"},{"start":136.593,"end":157.303,"text":"另外的話就是說所謂的緣額的話有預算緣額跟實際緣額如果預算緣額主計處沒有給錢的話我們有那個緣額的話基本上來講的話我們等於是一個空殼子沒關係人事總處就是表示還有緣額接下來就是管理的問題我們一起來努力好不好我想再來是庫房人力的問題我們故宮的資料"},{"start":159.284,"end":178.655,"text":"包含技工在內一共50人要點館70萬件的文物平均一個人要點館14000件文物以全年上班250天來講我們算過了每個人每天不吃不喝不休息每10分鐘中午還不能吃便當每10分鐘一天要來check56件文物是否安然無恙"},{"start":179.375,"end":189.92,"text":"庫房管理員是不是就打開看一下還在一眼就關上是這樣子嗎請確認一下現在這個典藏文物確認的狀態到底是怎麼樣時間根本不夠人力根本不足"},{"start":190.643,"end":214.338,"text":"依照博物館法的話故宮博物院20年的話要做一個前院的總盤點所以所有的文物都要檢點過那例行性的話是每一季有像50個人的盤點院長然後那個單位主管的話會進行抽點抽點的話基本上來講的話是檢視文物那一般的盤點的話基本上來講的話是屬於秘書室的那個財產的數量謝謝謝謝院長"},{"start":217.62,"end":223.464,"text":"我們之後還要更多的交流我們已經幫你算過了告訴一下院長我們現在的這個盤點時間上一次從民國97年一路盤點到101年總共花費了超過1000天3年7個月才把70萬件文物盤點完現在民國113年距離上次盤點12年我們接下來很快就要面對20年盤點大限我們可能還要再花3、4年的時間來盤點嗎"},{"start":246.497,"end":272.847,"text":"我們在考察的時候看到就是說我們有引入新的方法以前的方法那這個沒辦法我們現在引入新的方法RFID的方式來管理老實說我們等於在iPhone的時代又引入了Nokia 3310我們不能沾沾自喜我們來看一下國外的例子華盛頓的史密森國家自然史博物館就已經在用AI來幫助進行盤點"},{"start":274.207,"end":296.185,"text":"我們台灣也有國立台灣歷史博物館的案例導入智慧科技輔助人力管理用AI影像辨識的系統來辨別館藏物取代RFID的無線射頻標籤的運作而且用AI還可以直接就辨識有沒有裂痕有沒有問題大幅的縮短人力我想請教一下院長能不能"},{"start":297.006,"end":311.552,"text":"再一次的確認我們可不可以開放高解析度的圖片來訓練AI不只保存文化也要來做訓練管藏盤頂的技術能不能請院長將此提議帶回去研議一個院內將評估報告以書面提供給本席"},{"start":313.701,"end":339.931,"text":"我依照委員意見來辦理好 謝謝我想我們一起努力另外一個文物修復人力不足的問題我們看過了編制內的文物修復人力只有12人12人在座的大家都沒有聽錯70萬件的館藏來計算等於每個修復人力要處理58000多件的文物修復文物修復還有很多的部分啦預防性保存啦修復啦科學方法分析啦等等我們已經算過了"},{"start":340.971,"end":362.357,"text":"事實上要花930年以目前的修復量能才能把館藏文物修復一遍我們特別跟教育部調了資料近3年國內文資相關保存的畢業生有130人我們再看一次這個緣額能不能用這些缺額來積極擴編文物修復的人力可不可以"},{"start":363.717,"end":376.444,"text":"博物館的文物保存維護它有一個邏輯並不是每年給它翻出來看一次因為基本上來講的話比如說現展文物的話我們就是要讓它睡三年三年保持在一個穩定的一個階段"},{"start":378.365,"end":397.094,"text":"我直接有些我打斷你齁負面的理由我們都理解但是問題我們要解決不是只是把困難說出來那不然這些文物還是持續的在老化這些我們修復能力還是持續的不足我想這不是我們負責任的態度齁我想我們繼續再來關注一下齁"},{"start":398.695,"end":400.356,"text":"剛剛我們提到還有很多預算的問題結果我們來看這個故宮修復的計畫裡頭我們在新故宮的計畫裡面南院用46億要來興建國保館那這個國保館還要一邊修復一邊給大家看"},{"start":417.071,"end":433.168,"text":"那我想確認一下那天參訪的時候院長也說國寶萬子編列新建建物的預算裡面可能還沒有硬體甚至可能還沒有修復的額外人力我想確認一下裡面軟硬體的預算在哪裡是不是還沒有著落啊確認一下院長"},{"start":434.349,"end":449.197,"text":"能不能幫助我們理解一下這個問題因為新故宮計畫基本上來講的話是一個營建經費有沒有編列現在有沒有國保館的硬體軟體人力的預算有還是沒有基本上116年要開了115年要完工"},{"start":451.798,"end":452.398,"text":"人力的培育呢?"},{"start":452.398,"end":452.678,"text":"多兩位是不是?"},{"start":473.251,"end":485.881,"text":"人力的部分的話我們會跟國內的古物修護研究所進行建教合作讓他們在學校之後的一個第二階段的一個延伸實務訓練然後幫故宮然後也幫忙這些"},{"start":489.763,"end":491.484,"text":"好 我們再來問一下院長整建之後北院將增加多少展示空間"},{"start":516.243,"end":542.468,"text":"我們大家都想看文物阿27%的民眾表示文物才是故宮的重點阿故宮北院整修之後49億元阿我們會提供多少新的展示空間北院的話會增加2000平方米的空間2000平方米是不是2000平方米我們再來評估一下夠不夠我們現在的文件的展示率事實上只有0.1%各類展品的平均展示率只有2.9%"},{"start":544.088,"end":561.089,"text":"我們已經算過了如果以圖書文獻類的藏品來講要一千年才能全部展出一輪真的是有可能有些藏品我們一輩子甚至多個輩子都看不到千年等一回這樣的比例在很多的不管是台灣的還是全世界的比起來"},{"start":561.61,"end":577.399,"text":"真的都是倒數全球我想這不是我們想要看到的因為大家到故宮就是要看展品兩千坪的增加到底夠不夠我們增加了更多的可能是咖啡廳玻璃亭這真的是我們民眾要的嗎我想請教一下到底這個增建計畫的資料你們是公布在哪裡我們現在看到這個資料"},{"start":587.364,"end":595.826,"text":"我們是怎麼樣在看到這個有什麼空間模擬動畫啦有什麼視覺的圖啊在官網上有沒有公開給民眾瞭解跟查閱啊"},{"start":596.448,"end":625.697,"text":"因為這個建築是在規劃設計的階段還沒有定案民眾都不用知道嗎?民眾非常關心啊我們竟然還要去自己買雜誌喔雜誌的第49頁有一個QR codeQR code查進去有這些東西這怎麼樣?是報導獨家嗎?還是要促銷這個雜誌?我相信都不是啊能不能請院長今天質詢以後三天內將整件進化的相關資訊放上官網並且建立專區讓各界可以早一點來提供建議啊可不可以這樣做?"},{"start":626.775,"end":628.841,"text":"可以嗎?因為他管工程"},{"start":634.704,"end":662.572,"text":"我們整件民眾有權知道吧有權關心吧還是要去買雜誌才能知道還要掃碼我們可以整理之後提供上網好不好上到故宮官網我想我們今天還是非常友善提醒院長最近歷史博物館閉館整修6年以後對外開放各界對於成果褒貶不一提出很多的質詢那事實上各國都已經用科技在試著去做空間的體驗或者回覆"},{"start":663.192,"end":663.292,"text":"主席"},{"start":682.503,"end":685.285,"text":"請院長將利用VR、AR虛擬實踐的技術來實際體驗故宮北院整建後的樣貌。我覺得國保館都可以考慮,能不能請院長將以上意見帶回研議,並將研議結果於一個月內。"},{"start":699.375,"end":721.161,"text":"已經夠了以書面提供的本席可以嗎跟委員報告一下就是說我們委託營建的設計現在是在一個設計構想的階段還沒確定啦所以我們還可以評估要不要有玻璃體嘛對不對不可能讓建築師說把他完整的通通弄出來因為這個他有一個審議程序審議程序通過以後同意這樣的試驗所以一個月還不夠一個月還不夠"},{"start":723.888,"end":748.741,"text":"一年因為他要做細部設計你不能叫建築師說三個月以內把圖畫出然後一個月設 對不起再給我30秒那我們設計完到之後我們都大家民眾都不滿意覺得這空間不夠跟委員報告一下設計完之後還要送臺北市文資局審議審議完了之後還要進到那個杜花吉建築設計那什麼時候會公開這些資料給大家"},{"start":749.481,"end":750.923,"text":"我提一下這一次參觀故宮的體驗我其實相當感動"},{"start":775.784,"end":797.365,"text":"從文物保存跟秀物的觀點來看有非常多是AI和機器人目前無法達成的人類扮演更加重要的角色未來期望院方可以讓人類和AI各自負責擅長的工作相輔相成我們一起來努力讓資源運用效率最大化也要讓人力做合理妥善的安排讓故宮來進入一個更好的狀態好嗎 謝謝委員是這方面專家我們會再跟委員請教好 謝謝葛如鈞"}]}}}}