{"id":152295,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9fa9bc2102b9cf71ec1159274fd2d06af2e1d4ff16295ce236499d1b681a2ac79af8b311af07f0b65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:58:45 - 10:08:54","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-05-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關農業部及所屬主管預算凍結案等3案。（如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）\n二、審查本院委員陳冠廷等30人擬具「農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-08","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-11"},"duration":609,"end_time":"2024-05-08T10:08:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-08T09:58:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時58分）有請部長。"],["主席：請陳部長。"],["陳代理部長駿季：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：針對全台魚塭地目不一，政策反覆，扼殺養殖戶的生計，有幾個重點來做討論。第一個，土地遭受鹽化之後，農民如何因應？第二個，這麼複雜的地目，即使是農業用地，它有農牧用地，也有養殖用地，這樣地目交互混雜所謂廣益的農業用地之下，使用狀況不一，有什麼樣的問題產生？第三，漁民的生計該何去何從？農業部基於永續養殖環境跟糧食安全，所以對國內養殖漁業政策朝縮減陸地魚塭的規模，由4.2萬公頃減到3.5萬公頃，這個本席是支持的。","你們講得很好聽，說要積極輔導業者發展海上箱網養殖，並推廣友善養殖、結合室內養殖模式，以降低傳統水產養殖業高耗水土資源的衝擊。這個也是對的，但是你們的政策規劃有沒有看現況？地目如此不一的情況之下，你們怎麼做配套呢？過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到鹽鹼化了，在無法復養的情況之下，你現在縮減他的陸地養殖規模，沒有問題，養了一輩子的漁民要如何轉業？務農？這是你們給本席辦公室的說明，右邊顯示你們回復怎麼辦、後續的配套是什麼。你們說「已休廢養多年之海（鹹）水養殖魚塭於符合地目（農牧用地）之農業行為，可直接恢復農作使用，倘對於該土地之土壤性質及適合栽種之作物品項需要協助，可向農業試驗所或各地區農業改良場洽詢。」這個凸顯農業部的政策規劃失能，你要達到永續養殖、糧食安全，但是他的土地因為要配合你這個政策，不能再養殖了。這是他的財產，你限制他的財產不能再用於養殖，要轉為務農，那你的規劃是什麼？您是植物學者，既然學者要當公務人員，又多了部長這個政務官身分，你的思維可不能是學者，偏偏你的規劃思維就是，好啦！你要照政府的政策，我限制你的土地、你的財產，不好意思，你怎麼樣我沒有要處理，要不要給你一條生路，那不是我的事情，你自己去問政府相關單位，這個思維就是這樣。","有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地，這就是廣義的農業用地，還有許多養殖戶「因未將地目變更為養殖漁業用途（維持農牧地目）」，這句話是什麼意思呢？就是你們也承認很多養殖戶的地目叫做農牧用地。他有種種原因，並沒有把農牧用地變更為養殖用地，雖然都在廣義的農業用地之下。這樣的面積有多少？這也是你們的公開資料，等一下再說。如果是這樣的情況之下，我本來是養殖，沒有變更為養殖用地，你們這一道命令下去，是基於永續養殖、環境跟糧食安全，本席支持，但是你沒有顧及衝擊面，你們這個規定下去之後，既存魚塭的土地屬農牧用地的，過往三年沒有養殖事實就不能申請復養，如果再養殖就是非法使用。本席要講的是，如果這三年沒有養殖，但是過往十幾、二十年有養殖的事實，你是不採的。人家是因為種種原因，這三年就是沒有辦法養殖，然而過往十幾、二十年……我支持如果過往這三年、之前完全沒有養殖事實的，不好意思，你就得配合政策了，但是如果你是這三年沒有養殖，但是過往是有的，而且十幾、二十年，傳了第二代、第三代了，這樣你把它限制下去，他們就不能再養殖了。","你們的回文是什麼呢？我也請你們調出來，到底這樣的面積有多少？如果是少數，我們看怎麼做一些配套。你們農業部的回文說全臺漁電共生不利於相關農業耕種或漁牧，你們化作漁電共生區的有兩萬多公頃，這兩萬多公頃有三個分類，現在分類都按照你左邊這張回文，第一個分類叫做農牧用地，持續三年沒有在養事實的魚塭有922公頃，雖然它在兩萬多公頃漁電共生專區只占了4.4%，但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃。第二個，這兩萬多公頃當中，有1715.74公頃是提出申請的。第三個，還有一萬八千多公頃，也就是這裡的漁電共生當中，還有87%的用地還沒使用。本席就針對第一個項目，農牧用地之前有養殖事實，只不過這三年沒有這個事實，我針對這樣的魚塭跟您請益。","這是一個實例，下面這一張圖周邊都是完整的魚塭區，他可以依法做漁電共生，這是你們的規定，但是中間夾雜這一塊廢棄的魚塭，他偏偏近三年沒有養殖的事實，那也沒關係，你說不能養殖那就要務農，可是偏偏又是土壤鹽鹼化嚴重。部長是植物專家，你覺得他可以種什麼？依你的政策要種什麼？有經濟價值的，那種什麼是有經濟價值的？你要告訴人家一條路，不能叫人家自己去問農改場。最後，漁民的生計要何去何從？一般農業區的農牧用地要申請合法的魚塭，必須要有既存的養殖，而且過去有三年復養的事實，如果不得復養，養殖戶就必須改為務農，但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地鹽化，所以你就叫人民的土地閒置在那邊。就算漁民要改為其他的物種，我是養石斑魚的，我要改為虱目魚，我的設備、技術、人才培訓、市場開發，光是養魚改為不同的物種就要花多大的力氣？你直接一句話，說你們漁民不能這樣，要配合政府，不能養、不能種植，直接務農，也沒告訴人家要怎麼做。","再來，這種廢棄魚塭還有什麼問題？我就以本席的選區為例，這個新聞是在今年3月，一個魚塭廢棄已久，它不是廢棄已久就沒水哦！有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此，長年有水，雖然叫廢棄的魚塭。因為水溫太高，旁邊本來沒有水母，結果生態改變，所以水母暴增。你們對於廢棄魚塭有相關的配套嗎？沒有！全臺十縣市的漁電共生區當中地目不一，農業部怎麼可以用一刀切，採取剛性作業的原則，毫無配套？","聽好，部長，您是即將連任的部長，您要符合人民對於行動創新AI內閣的期待，您的配套就要針對這個政策執行之後帶來的衝擊，你要以人民的角度規劃配套，不要沒有解決問題又製造問題，就像現在對於廢棄魚塭的相關政策。部長，請回答。"],["陳代理部長駿季：簡單的跟委員說明，委員剛才提到一些我們的回復，我也覺得有不恰當的地方，這是第一點。第二點，我們先不處理光電後續的……"],["林委員岱樺：不需要？針對廢棄魚塭就好了？"],["陳代理部長駿季：沒有，針對廢棄魚塭，我也覺得以你剛才的案例來講，其實應該輔導他恢復到養殖漁業，而不是變成農牧用地，就算它是農牧用地也應該……"],["林委員岱樺：部長，你這句話就夠了，我覺得你已經做了改變，下面漁業署相關的我們再來討論。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-11","speakers":["邱議瑩","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","鄭正鈐","賴瑞隆","林岱樺","鄭天財Sra 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\"end\": 270.6, \"text\": \"本席要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的事實你是不採的\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"本\", \"start\": 266.658, \"end\": 266.858, \"score\": 0.79}, {\"word\": \"席\", \"start\": 266.858, \"end\": 266.998, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"要\", \"start\": 266.998, \"end\": 267.378, \"score\": 0.777}, {\"word\": \"講\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 267.378, \"end\": 267.959, \"score\": 0.979}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 267.959, \"end\": 268.239, \"score\": 0.895}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 268.239, \"end\": 268.259, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 268.259, \"end\": 268.659, \"score\": 0.891}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"三\", \"start\": 268.659, \"end\": 268.939, \"score\": 0.839}, {\"word\": \"年\", \"start\": 268.939, \"end\": 268.959, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"沒\", \"start\": 268.959, \"end\": 269.359, \"score\": 0.827}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 269.359, \"end\": 269.38, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"養\"}, {\"word\": \"殖\", \"start\": 269.38, \"end\": 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{\"word\": \"也\", \"start\": 585.595, \"end\": 585.615, \"score\": 0.001}, {\"word\": \"覺\"}, {\"word\": \"得\", \"start\": 585.615, \"end\": 585.635, \"score\": 0.002}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 589.497, \"end\": 589.517, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"。\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:00,329 --> 00:00:11,026\n請林岱樺委員發言有請部長來請陳部長\n\n2\n00:00:19,659 --> 00:00:39,085\n地木不依政策防護二三養殖戶的生計有幾個重點來做討論第一個土地遭受研化之後農民如何因應第二個在我們這麼複雜的一個即使是農業用地他有農牧用地也有這個養殖用地\n\n3\n00:00:39,585 --> 00:00:40,726\n主席主席主席\n\n4\n00:01:03,860 --> 00:01:12,589\n一萬公頃減到三點五萬公頃（這個本席是支持的所以你們講得很好聽叫做積極輔導業者發展海上鄉網養殖並推廣友善養殖結合室內養殖模式以降低傳統水產養殖高耗水土資源的衝擊這個也是對的\n\n5\n00:01:26,403 --> 00:01:41,453\n好但是呢你們政策規劃有沒有看現況這個地目如此混一的情況之下你們怎麼去做配套呢過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到嚴簡化了在無法復養的情況之下好你現在縮減他的陸地養殖的規模沒有問題他養了一輩子的漁民你要如何轉業\n\n6\n00:01:53,968 --> 00:01:54,328\n農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n\n7\n00:02:15,487 --> 00:02:24,372\n或者呢這個土地的土壤性質或是核災中的作物需要協助的話呢那農民呢你自己主動的去找農業這個試驗所或各地的農業改良廠洽詢這個意思呢就是凸顯農業部的政策規劃的失能了你叫你要達到你那這個永續養殖糧食安全但是他的土地因為受你要配合你這個政策我不能再養殖了\n\n8\n00:02:45,342 --> 00:02:46,164\n農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n\n9\n00:02:58,287 --> 00:03:17,220\n這個民事職務學者啊你既然這個學者要來當公務人員又墮了部長這個政務官那你的思維可不能就是學者了好偏偏了你的規劃的思維呢就是好啦我給你限制你的土地齁啊你來教我政府的齁啊我給你限制你的土地你的財產喔抱歉你怎麼我沒要處理啊我要給你一條生路嗎那不是我的事你給你去問政府相關單位這個思維就是這樣\n\n10\n00:03:27,927 --> 00:03:33,212\n好那這個呢有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地這就是廣義的農業用地既然還有許多養殖戶因為未將地牧變更為養殖漁業用途維持農牧用地這句話什麼意思呢就是說好你們也承認很多養殖戶他的地牧叫做農牧用地\n\n11\n00:03:49,927 --> 00:03:57,819\n但是他就是有種種的原因他並沒有把榮木用地變更為養殖用地雖然都在所謂的廣義的農業用地之下這樣的的面積有多少等一下我再跟這也是你們的公開資料好等一下再說\n\n12\n00:04:05,811 --> 00:04:06,771\n主席主席主席\n\n13\n00:04:26,658 --> 00:04:30,600\n本席要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的事實你是不採的\n\n14\n00:04:45,996 --> 00:05:12,706\n所以看人家是因為種種的原因有這三年就是沒有辦法養殖過往十幾二十年所以我是支持如果過往這三年之前完全沒有養殖適時的那不好意思你就得配合政策了但是如果說你是養這三年沒有養殖但是過往是有的而且十幾二十年傳了第二代第三代了這樣子你把它限制下去好你們就不能再養殖了\n\n15\n00:05:13,226 --> 00:05:37,493\n好那你們的回文是什麼呢好你們說針對這樣的我也請你們說啊掉出來到底真的面積有多少啊如果是少少數那也就好我們看怎麼來來做一些配套啊你們農業部的回文啊全台餘電公升我就針對這個養這個所謂的無法啊不利於這個相關農業耕種或榆木的這些你們化作餘電共生區的有兩萬多公頃\n\n16\n00:05:40,534 --> 00:05:51,979\n這兩萬公頃有三個分類我現在分類都按照你左邊這張文的回文第一個分類呢叫做農牧用地持續三年沒有再養的適時的餘溫922公頃雖然他佔了你這兩萬的餘電供升的專居佔了4.4%但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃第二個呢這個這兩萬多公頃當中呢其中\n\n17\n00:06:06,565 --> 00:06:21,394\n有1715.70公頃是提出申請的第三個還有18000多公頃也就是這裡的漁電共生當中還有87%的用地是還沒使用的好那本席就針對針對\n\n18\n00:06:25,156 --> 00:06:34,801\n針對這個第一個項目所謂人木用地持續養養了三年但是之前是有的喔是有養殖事實只不過這三年沒有的事實喔這樣的餘溫來做跟您做請益好那這個是一個實例也就是我這麼旁邊下面這張圖我旁邊周邊都是完整的餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定\n\n19\n00:06:49,407 --> 00:07:02,740\n但是那中間夾雜了這一塊廢棄的餘溫但是他偏偏這三年就沒有近三年沒有養殖的事實可是呢那也沒關係你就說不能養殖的嘛那就要務農啊那可是他偏偏他又是這個土壤鹽鹼化嚴重啦所以您這個植物專家部長你覺得他可以種什麼\n\n20\n00:07:10,595 --> 00:07:11,055\n農產品市場交易法\n\n21\n00:07:27,282 --> 00:07:47,062\n最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊\n\n22\n00:07:48,524 --> 00:07:52,185\n所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養不能種植直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做\n\n23\n00:08:17,233 --> 00:08:20,036\n好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此\n\n24\n00:08:38,614 --> 00:08:38,895\n李慧琼議員\n\n25\n00:08:53,946 --> 00:08:58,589\n沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長\n\n26\n00:09:09,777 --> 00:09:10,178\n部長請回答\n\n27\n00:09:34,268 --> 00:09:45,635\n簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫就好針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說\n\n28\n00:09:49,497 --> 00:09:49,517\n好,謝謝。\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n329\t11026\t請林岱樺委員發言有請部長來請陳部長\n19659\t39085\t地木不依政策防護二三養殖戶的生計有幾個重點來做討論第一個土地遭受研化之後農民如何因應第二個在我們這麼複雜的一個即使是農業用地他有農牧用地也有這個養殖用地\n39585\t40726\t主席主席主席\n63860\t72589\t一萬公頃減到三點五萬公頃（這個本席是支持的所以你們講得很好聽叫做積極輔導業者發展海上鄉網養殖並推廣友善養殖結合室內養殖模式以降低傳統水產養殖高耗水土資源的衝擊這個也是對的\n86403\t101453\t好但是呢你們政策規劃有沒有看現況這個地目如此混一的情況之下你們怎麼去做配套呢過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到嚴簡化了在無法復養的情況之下好你現在縮減他的陸地養殖的規模沒有問題他養了一輩子的漁民你要如何轉業\n113968\t114328\t農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n135487\t144372\t或者呢這個土地的土壤性質或是核災中的作物需要協助的話呢那農民呢你自己主動的去找農業這個試驗所或各地的農業改良廠洽詢這個意思呢就是凸顯農業部的政策規劃的失能了你叫你要達到你那這個永續養殖糧食安全但是他的土地因為受你要配合你這個政策我不能再養殖了\n165342\t166164\t農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n178287\t197220\t這個民事職務學者啊你既然這個學者要來當公務人員又墮了部長這個政務官那你的思維可不能就是學者了好偏偏了你的規劃的思維呢就是好啦我給你限制你的土地齁啊你來教我政府的齁啊我給你限制你的土地你的財產喔抱歉你怎麼我沒要處理啊我要給你一條生路嗎那不是我的事你給你去問政府相關單位這個思維就是這樣\n207927\t213212\t好那這個呢有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地這就是廣義的農業用地既然還有許多養殖戶因為未將地牧變更為養殖漁業用途維持農牧用地這句話什麼意思呢就是說好你們也承認很多養殖戶他的地牧叫做農牧用地\n229927\t237819\t但是他就是有種種的原因他並沒有把榮木用地變更為養殖用地雖然都在所謂的廣義的農業用地之下這樣的的面積有多少等一下我再跟這也是你們的公開資料好等一下再說\n245811\t246771\t主席主席主席\n266658\t270600\t本席要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的事實你是不採的\n285996\t312706\t所以看人家是因為種種的原因有這三年就是沒有辦法養殖過往十幾二十年所以我是支持如果過往這三年之前完全沒有養殖適時的那不好意思你就得配合政策了但是如果說你是養這三年沒有養殖但是過往是有的而且十幾二十年傳了第二代第三代了這樣子你把它限制下去好你們就不能再養殖了\n313226\t337493\t好那你們的回文是什麼呢好你們說針對這樣的我也請你們說啊掉出來到底真的面積有多少啊如果是少少數那也就好我們看怎麼來來做一些配套啊你們農業部的回文啊全台餘電公升我就針對這個養這個所謂的無法啊不利於這個相關農業耕種或榆木的這些你們化作餘電共生區的有兩萬多公頃\n340534\t351979\t這兩萬公頃有三個分類我現在分類都按照你左邊這張文的回文第一個分類呢叫做農牧用地持續三年沒有再養的適時的餘溫922公頃雖然他佔了你這兩萬的餘電供升的專居佔了4.4%但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃第二個呢這個這兩萬多公頃當中呢其中\n366565\t381394\t有1715.70公頃是提出申請的第三個還有18000多公頃也就是這裡的漁電共生當中還有87%的用地是還沒使用的好那本席就針對針對\n385156\t394801\t針對這個第一個項目所謂人木用地持續養養了三年但是之前是有的喔是有養殖事實只不過這三年沒有的事實喔這樣的餘溫來做跟您做請益好那這個是一個實例也就是我這麼旁邊下面這張圖我旁邊周邊都是完整的餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定\n409407\t422740\t但是那中間夾雜了這一塊廢棄的餘溫但是他偏偏這三年就沒有近三年沒有養殖的事實可是呢那也沒關係你就說不能養殖的嘛那就要務農啊那可是他偏偏他又是這個土壤鹽鹼化嚴重啦所以您這個植物專家部長你覺得他可以種什麼\n430595\t431055\t農產品市場交易法\n447282\t467062\t最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊\n468524\t472185\t所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養不能種植直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做\n497233\t500036\t好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此\n518614\t518895\t李慧琼議員\n533946\t538589\t沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長\n549777\t550178\t部長請回答\n574268\t585635\t簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫就好針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說\n589497\t589517\t好,謝謝。\n","txt":"請林岱樺委員發言有請部長來請陳部長\n地木不依政策防護二三養殖戶的生計有幾個重點來做討論第一個土地遭受研化之後農民如何因應第二個在我們這麼複雜的一個即使是農業用地他有農牧用地也有這個養殖用地\n主席主席主席\n一萬公頃減到三點五萬公頃（這個本席是支持的所以你們講得很好聽叫做積極輔導業者發展海上鄉網養殖並推廣友善養殖結合室內養殖模式以降低傳統水產養殖高耗水土資源的衝擊這個也是對的\n好但是呢你們政策規劃有沒有看現況這個地目如此混一的情況之下你們怎麼去做配套呢過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到嚴簡化了在無法復養的情況之下好你現在縮減他的陸地養殖的規模沒有問題他養了一輩子的漁民你要如何轉業\n農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n或者呢這個土地的土壤性質或是核災中的作物需要協助的話呢那農民呢你自己主動的去找農業這個試驗所或各地的農業改良廠洽詢這個意思呢就是凸顯農業部的政策規劃的失能了你叫你要達到你那這個永續養殖糧食安全但是他的土地因為受你要配合你這個政策我不能再養殖了\n農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n這個民事職務學者啊你既然這個學者要來當公務人員又墮了部長這個政務官那你的思維可不能就是學者了好偏偏了你的規劃的思維呢就是好啦我給你限制你的土地齁啊你來教我政府的齁啊我給你限制你的土地你的財產喔抱歉你怎麼我沒要處理啊我要給你一條生路嗎那不是我的事你給你去問政府相關單位這個思維就是這樣\n好那這個呢有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地這就是廣義的農業用地既然還有許多養殖戶因為未將地牧變更為養殖漁業用途維持農牧用地這句話什麼意思呢就是說好你們也承認很多養殖戶他的地牧叫做農牧用地\n但是他就是有種種的原因他並沒有把榮木用地變更為養殖用地雖然都在所謂的廣義的農業用地之下這樣的的面積有多少等一下我再跟這也是你們的公開資料好等一下再說\n主席主席主席\n本席要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的事實你是不採的\n所以看人家是因為種種的原因有這三年就是沒有辦法養殖過往十幾二十年所以我是支持如果過往這三年之前完全沒有養殖適時的那不好意思你就得配合政策了但是如果說你是養這三年沒有養殖但是過往是有的而且十幾二十年傳了第二代第三代了這樣子你把它限制下去好你們就不能再養殖了\n好那你們的回文是什麼呢好你們說針對這樣的我也請你們說啊掉出來到底真的面積有多少啊如果是少少數那也就好我們看怎麼來來做一些配套啊你們農業部的回文啊全台餘電公升我就針對這個養這個所謂的無法啊不利於這個相關農業耕種或榆木的這些你們化作餘電共生區的有兩萬多公頃\n這兩萬公頃有三個分類我現在分類都按照你左邊這張文的回文第一個分類呢叫做農牧用地持續三年沒有再養的適時的餘溫922公頃雖然他佔了你這兩萬的餘電供升的專居佔了4.4%但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃第二個呢這個這兩萬多公頃當中呢其中\n有1715.70公頃是提出申請的第三個還有18000多公頃也就是這裡的漁電共生當中還有87%的用地是還沒使用的好那本席就針對針對\n針對這個第一個項目所謂人木用地持續養養了三年但是之前是有的喔是有養殖事實只不過這三年沒有的事實喔這樣的餘溫來做跟您做請益好那這個是一個實例也就是我這麼旁邊下面這張圖我旁邊周邊都是完整的餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定\n但是那中間夾雜了這一塊廢棄的餘溫但是他偏偏這三年就沒有近三年沒有養殖的事實可是呢那也沒關係你就說不能養殖的嘛那就要務農啊那可是他偏偏他又是這個土壤鹽鹼化嚴重啦所以您這個植物專家部長你覺得他可以種什麼\n農產品市場交易法\n最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊\n所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養不能種植直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做\n好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此\n李慧琼議員\n沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長\n部長請回答\n簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫就好針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說\n好,謝謝。\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.329 --> 00:11.026\n請林岱樺委員發言有請部長來請陳部長\n\n00:19.659 --> 00:39.085\n地木不依政策防護二三養殖戶的生計有幾個重點來做討論第一個土地遭受研化之後農民如何因應第二個在我們這麼複雜的一個即使是農業用地他有農牧用地也有這個養殖用地\n\n00:39.585 --> 00:40.726\n主席主席主席\n\n01:03.860 --> 01:12.589\n一萬公頃減到三點五萬公頃（這個本席是支持的所以你們講得很好聽叫做積極輔導業者發展海上鄉網養殖並推廣友善養殖結合室內養殖模式以降低傳統水產養殖高耗水土資源的衝擊這個也是對的\n\n01:26.403 --> 01:41.453\n好但是呢你們政策規劃有沒有看現況這個地目如此混一的情況之下你們怎麼去做配套呢過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到嚴簡化了在無法復養的情況之下好你現在縮減他的陸地養殖的規模沒有問題他養了一輩子的漁民你要如何轉業\n\n01:53.968 --> 01:54.328\n農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n\n02:15.487 --> 02:24.372\n或者呢這個土地的土壤性質或是核災中的作物需要協助的話呢那農民呢你自己主動的去找農業這個試驗所或各地的農業改良廠洽詢這個意思呢就是凸顯農業部的政策規劃的失能了你叫你要達到你那這個永續養殖糧食安全但是他的土地因為受你要配合你這個政策我不能再養殖了\n\n02:45.342 --> 02:46.164\n農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告\n\n02:58.287 --> 03:17.220\n這個民事職務學者啊你既然這個學者要來當公務人員又墮了部長這個政務官那你的思維可不能就是學者了好偏偏了你的規劃的思維呢就是好啦我給你限制你的土地齁啊你來教我政府的齁啊我給你限制你的土地你的財產喔抱歉你怎麼我沒要處理啊我要給你一條生路嗎那不是我的事你給你去問政府相關單位這個思維就是這樣\n\n03:27.927 --> 03:33.212\n好那這個呢有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地這就是廣義的農業用地既然還有許多養殖戶因為未將地牧變更為養殖漁業用途維持農牧用地這句話什麼意思呢就是說好你們也承認很多養殖戶他的地牧叫做農牧用地\n\n03:49.927 --> 03:57.819\n但是他就是有種種的原因他並沒有把榮木用地變更為養殖用地雖然都在所謂的廣義的農業用地之下這樣的的面積有多少等一下我再跟這也是你們的公開資料好等一下再說\n\n04:05.811 --> 04:06.771\n主席主席主席\n\n04:26.658 --> 04:30.600\n本席要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的事實你是不採的\n\n04:45.996 --> 05:12.706\n所以看人家是因為種種的原因有這三年就是沒有辦法養殖過往十幾二十年所以我是支持如果過往這三年之前完全沒有養殖適時的那不好意思你就得配合政策了但是如果說你是養這三年沒有養殖但是過往是有的而且十幾二十年傳了第二代第三代了這樣子你把它限制下去好你們就不能再養殖了\n\n05:13.226 --> 05:37.493\n好那你們的回文是什麼呢好你們說針對這樣的我也請你們說啊掉出來到底真的面積有多少啊如果是少少數那也就好我們看怎麼來來做一些配套啊你們農業部的回文啊全台餘電公升我就針對這個養這個所謂的無法啊不利於這個相關農業耕種或榆木的這些你們化作餘電共生區的有兩萬多公頃\n\n05:40.534 --> 05:51.979\n這兩萬公頃有三個分類我現在分類都按照你左邊這張文的回文第一個分類呢叫做農牧用地持續三年沒有再養的適時的餘溫922公頃雖然他佔了你這兩萬的餘電供升的專居佔了4.4%但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃第二個呢這個這兩萬多公頃當中呢其中\n\n06:06.565 --> 06:21.394\n有1715.70公頃是提出申請的第三個還有18000多公頃也就是這裡的漁電共生當中還有87%的用地是還沒使用的好那本席就針對針對\n\n06:25.156 --> 06:34.801\n針對這個第一個項目所謂人木用地持續養養了三年但是之前是有的喔是有養殖事實只不過這三年沒有的事實喔這樣的餘溫來做跟您做請益好那這個是一個實例也就是我這麼旁邊下面這張圖我旁邊周邊都是完整的餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定\n\n06:49.407 --> 07:02.740\n但是那中間夾雜了這一塊廢棄的餘溫但是他偏偏這三年就沒有近三年沒有養殖的事實可是呢那也沒關係你就說不能養殖的嘛那就要務農啊那可是他偏偏他又是這個土壤鹽鹼化嚴重啦所以您這個植物專家部長你覺得他可以種什麼\n\n07:10.595 --> 07:11.055\n農產品市場交易法\n\n07:27.282 --> 07:47.062\n最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊\n\n07:48.524 --> 07:52.185\n所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養不能種植直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做\n\n08:17.233 --> 08:20.036\n好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此\n\n08:38.614 --> 08:38.895\n李慧琼議員\n\n08:53.946 --> 08:58.589\n沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長\n\n09:09.777 --> 09:10.178\n部長請回答\n\n09:34.268 --> 09:45.635\n簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫就好針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說\n\n09:49.497 --> 09:49.517\n好,謝謝。\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.329,"end":11.026,"text":"請林岱樺委員發言有請部長來請陳部長"},{"start":19.659,"end":39.085,"text":"地木不依政策防護二三養殖戶的生計有幾個重點來做討論第一個土地遭受研化之後農民如何因應第二個在我們這麼複雜的一個即使是農業用地他有農牧用地也有這個養殖用地"},{"start":39.585,"end":40.726,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":63.86,"end":72.589,"text":"一萬公頃減到三點五萬公頃（這個本席是支持的所以你們講得很好聽叫做積極輔導業者發展海上鄉網養殖並推廣友善養殖結合室內養殖模式以降低傳統水產養殖高耗水土資源的衝擊這個也是對的"},{"start":86.403,"end":101.453,"text":"好但是呢你們政策規劃有沒有看現況這個地目如此混一的情況之下你們怎麼去做配套呢過去長期引進海水養殖的土地已經遭到嚴簡化了在無法復養的情況之下好你現在縮減他的陸地養殖的規模沒有問題他養了一輩子的漁民你要如何轉業"},{"start":113.968,"end":114.328,"text":"農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告"},{"start":135.487,"end":144.372,"text":"或者呢這個土地的土壤性質或是核災中的作物需要協助的話呢那農民呢你自己主動的去找農業這個試驗所或各地的農業改良廠洽詢這個意思呢就是凸顯農業部的政策規劃的失能了你叫你要達到你那這個永續養殖糧食安全但是他的土地因為受你要配合你這個政策我不能再養殖了"},{"start":165.342,"end":166.164,"text":"農產品市場交易法第三十五條條文宣告"},{"start":178.287,"end":197.22,"text":"這個民事職務學者啊你既然這個學者要來當公務人員又墮了部長這個政務官那你的思維可不能就是學者了好偏偏了你的規劃的思維呢就是好啦我給你限制你的土地齁啊你來教我政府的齁啊我給你限制你的土地你的財產喔抱歉你怎麼我沒要處理啊我要給你一條生路嗎那不是我的事你給你去問政府相關單位這個思維就是這樣"},{"start":207.927,"end":213.212,"text":"好那這個呢有關農牧跟養殖漁牧混地這就是廣義的農業用地既然還有許多養殖戶因為未將地牧變更為養殖漁業用途維持農牧用地這句話什麼意思呢就是說好你們也承認很多養殖戶他的地牧叫做農牧用地"},{"start":229.927,"end":237.819,"text":"但是他就是有種種的原因他並沒有把榮木用地變更為養殖用地雖然都在所謂的廣義的農業用地之下這樣的的面積有多少等一下我再跟這也是你們的公開資料好等一下再說"},{"start":245.811,"end":246.771,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":266.658,"end":270.6,"text":"本席要講的是如果這三年沒有養殖你過往有十幾二十年有養殖的事實你是不採的"},{"start":285.996,"end":312.706,"text":"所以看人家是因為種種的原因有這三年就是沒有辦法養殖過往十幾二十年所以我是支持如果過往這三年之前完全沒有養殖適時的那不好意思你就得配合政策了但是如果說你是養這三年沒有養殖但是過往是有的而且十幾二十年傳了第二代第三代了這樣子你把它限制下去好你們就不能再養殖了"},{"start":313.226,"end":337.493,"text":"好那你們的回文是什麼呢好你們說針對這樣的我也請你們說啊掉出來到底真的面積有多少啊如果是少少數那也就好我們看怎麼來來做一些配套啊你們農業部的回文啊全台餘電公升我就針對這個養這個所謂的無法啊不利於這個相關農業耕種或榆木的這些你們化作餘電共生區的有兩萬多公頃"},{"start":340.534,"end":351.979,"text":"這兩萬公頃有三個分類我現在分類都按照你左邊這張文的回文第一個分類呢叫做農牧用地持續三年沒有再養的適時的餘溫922公頃雖然他佔了你這兩萬的餘電供升的專居佔了4.4%但是不要忘了這4.4%也有922公頃第二個呢這個這兩萬多公頃當中呢其中"},{"start":366.565,"end":381.394,"text":"有1715.70公頃是提出申請的第三個還有18000多公頃也就是這裡的漁電共生當中還有87%的用地是還沒使用的好那本席就針對針對"},{"start":385.156,"end":394.801,"text":"針對這個第一個項目所謂人木用地持續養養了三年但是之前是有的喔是有養殖事實只不過這三年沒有的事實喔這樣的餘溫來做跟您做請益好那這個是一個實例也就是我這麼旁邊下面這張圖我旁邊周邊都是完整的餘溫區他也就可以依法來做餘電共生這是你們的規定"},{"start":409.407,"end":422.74,"text":"但是那中間夾雜了這一塊廢棄的餘溫但是他偏偏這三年就沒有近三年沒有養殖的事實可是呢那也沒關係你就說不能養殖的嘛那就要務農啊那可是他偏偏他又是這個土壤鹽鹼化嚴重啦所以您這個植物專家部長你覺得他可以種什麼"},{"start":430.595,"end":431.055,"text":"農產品市場交易法"},{"start":447.282,"end":467.062,"text":"最後我的漁民生計要何去何從你一般的農業區的農牧用地都要申請合法的餘溫必須要有既存的養殖而且要過去有三年的復養如果呢不得復養養殖戶就必須改為務農但是我要務農的時候又遇到土地演化了所以你就叫人民的土地就閒置在那邊"},{"start":468.524,"end":472.185,"text":"所以就算我漁民要改為其他的物種我是養石斑魚的我要改為虱目魚我的設備我的技術的人才的培訓我的市場的開發光是養魚我改為不同的物種我就花多大的力氣你直接一句話說你們漁民不能要配合政府然後不能養不能種植直接誤農也沒告訴人家你要怎麼做"},{"start":497.233,"end":500.036,"text":"好那再來就算這種廢棄的餘溫還有什麼問題我就以本本席的選區這個在這個新聞在今年3月一個廢棄的一個餘溫廢棄於久之後他不是廢棄於久他就沒水了他有家庭廢水甚至其他養殖廢水聚集在此"},{"start":518.614,"end":518.895,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":533.946,"end":538.589,"text":"沒有好所以呢這個全台10縣市的漁電共生區等等當中地幕不一農業部怎麼可以用一刀切剛性作業的原則毫無配套聽好部長您是即將連任的部長"},{"start":549.777,"end":550.178,"text":"部長請回答"},{"start":574.268,"end":585.635,"text":"簡單的跟委員說明就是委員剛才所提到的一些我們的回覆我也覺得有不恰當的地方第一點第二點就是說我們先不處理光電的後續的不需要針對廢棄餘溫就好針對廢棄餘溫我也覺得說"},{"start":589.497,"end":589.517,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}}}}