{"id":152360,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792de164e851680cfbbab4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac79c8b0e28f4b914155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:33:35 - 09:44:12","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":637,"end_time":"2024-05-09T09:44:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T09:33:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":185,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時33分）謝謝主席，我們先請吳秘書長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長早。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：在司法院解凍的報告當中有提及國民法官制度，對於現行絕對評議的秘密原則進行檢討，是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神？依國民法官法第八十五條第二項規定，案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人，得於裁判確定後聲請閱覽評議意見。但不得抄錄、攝影或影印。而在上會期我們審議決議寫到，實務上因為評議意見只有摘要和結論，所以沒有辦法得知結論的脈絡，若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決，恐會有失國人對司法的信任。","我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到，司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度，從過去所做的一般民眾對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到，民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮，人身安全和個資保護有其優先性。從調查結果也能夠看到，不論是否有實際參與國民法官的經驗，都對於隱私和安全有相當的重視。另外，從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查結果報告當中可以看到，在影響參與審判意願的因素當中，人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅，但是在實際參與審判之後，這項疑慮占比降低了許多。我想請教秘書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告？評議秘密的緩和可能有多大程度影響到民眾參審的意願？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為在一般的裁判案件審理，評議的內容是有相當的機制來保管，必要的時候如何調閱有一套很嚴謹的程序，因為這個涉及到參與評議的法官，甚至以後國民法官案件有關國民法官個人的隱私這一方面如何保護，這個跟如何公開或閱覽是相對性的問題，就這方面我們刑事廳也有一個相當的對策。"],["陳委員俊宇：沒關係，因為要保障我們國民法官自由表述，人身安全也是促進我們民眾參審的一個重要價值，但是也不能犧牲掉當事人的權益，應該讓當事人能夠探知評議的期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應，或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的判決結果。這次司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了其他國家採用的制度，當然也有經過變聲處理、開放當事人閱覽記載詳盡的筆錄等方式，但是在結論當中，看起來我們還是以保護國民法官為優先，要再進行整體的評估。我還是再請教秘書長，司法院目前還是暫時不打算做出相關的調整，以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民、法官和當事人的權益嗎？接下來我們評估的修正方向，是要看之前電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果，才能夠再做重新的調整嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為新制度的推行，尤其涉及到這種相對性的關係人、相對性的權利，所以這一部分在司法院是很審慎的評估，隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題，這個還是要很謹慎，因為這個有相對性的權利要保護。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以就是還要再審慎的檢討。"],["吳秘書長三龍：其實這方面要很審慎啦！"],["陳委員俊宇：好。接下來我想請教秘書長有關國民法官制度檢辯資源不對等的這個問題，我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮，因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪，通常會由頂尖的檢察官來辦理，但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下，可能就會有資源和實力上的落差。一樣從國民法官問卷調查結果報告的內容可以看到，參與審判的國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予檢辯雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多，但我們還是看得出來，對於檢察官的整體評價是高於辯護人的部分，這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況。許宗力院長也曾經表示過，司法院作為國民法官制度的推動機關，所需要因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的市場機制來解決，我還是請教秘書長，目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這些都要從人性面考量，所以在法扶律師那一部分，我們會儘量提高他酬金的天花板，在法院部分也有約聘辯護人，是有這方面的招聘，就儘量要讓辯護人方面的水準也能夠跟檢方、檢察官還是要能夠平衡起來。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，從我們這個書面報告看起來，還是大多朝向就是誠如秘書長剛剛所說的，提高我們律師的薪酬，也能夠提高辯護的量能，我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的方向，我還是請教秘書長，是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓檢辯雙方的資源更加平衡？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部分我們司行廳其實都有相當的對策。"],["高廳長玉舜：委員好。謝謝委員垂詢這個問題，有關法扶國法案件酬金的部分，在今年，因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們擬具草案之後送我們司法院核定之後再施行，目前的進度是這樣，先跟委員報告，就是有關國法案件的酬金，有關基數的部分，我們已經調高成一個基數為2,000元。另外有關複數辯護律師的部分，之前是以國法案件的一審可以做複數律師的指派，現在我們把它放寬到如果是案情繁雜的國法案件，我們可以從偵查，甚至上訴審也可以做複數辯護律師，因為搭配酬金計付辦法的調整，其實我們就法扶的部分，我們也請法扶成立一個……目前有做一個國法案件的任務編組，把他們的專職律師納入這個小組裡面。另外預計以後可能要成立刑事辯護中心來承接部分的國法案件，也順便提高國法案件辯護的質與量，以上報告，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告？"],["高廳長玉舜：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外我想請教我們秘書長，除了我們促進民眾對於國民法官的參與之外，我們也期待辯護人能夠持續地參審，司法院有沒有調查過曾經參審國民法官案件的辯護人，他再參與的意願為何？或他不想去參與的原因是什麼？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這一部刑事廳裡面……"],["陳副廳長信旗：報告委員，這部分我們都有進行相關的問卷調查，可能要再看詳細的資料，其實對於辯護人……"],["陳委員俊宇：好，那沒關係，還是會後再給我一份書面報告，簡單的書面報告。"],["陳副廳長信旗：好，了解。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為我們國民法官這一年多來，有越來越多的案例可以做整體的檢討，目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告，可以說做得相當地完整也非常地精美，還有很多項目可以參考討論，我也希望我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日出爐，也能夠繼續來精進、推動，使我們國民法官法的制度可以更完善，讓它符合我們當初設立的目標跟期待，也能夠讓民眾再度提高對於司法的信任，這部分秘書長應該持續去加強把關。"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，以上。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長、謝謝委員。接下來請謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra 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{\"word\": \"影\", \"start\": 224.664, \"end\": 224.684, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"響\"}, {\"word\": \"到\", \"start\": 224.684, \"end\": 224.724, \"score\": 0.5}, {\"word\": \"後\", \"start\": 224.724, \"end\": 224.824, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"續\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 224.824, \"end\": 224.864, \"score\": 0.501}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"判\", \"start\": 224.864, \"end\": 224.964, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"結\"}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 224.964, \"end\": 224.984, \"score\": 0.0}]}, {\"start\": 227.95, \"end\": 251.083, \"text\": \"那這一次我們司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了這個其他國家的採用制度當然也有經過變身處理、開放當事人、閱覽、記載、詳盡的這個筆錄等方式但是在結論當中看起來我們還是保護國民法官為優先要再進行整體的這個評估那我還是再請教我們這個\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 227.95, \"end\": 228.13, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 228.13, \"end\": 228.35, \"score\": 0.908}, {\"word\": \"次\", \"start\": 228.35, \"end\": 228.49, \"score\": 0.98}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 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\"把\", \"start\": 630.933, \"end\": 631.033, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 631.033, \"end\": 631.053, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 631.053, \"end\": 631.073, \"score\": 0.0}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:18,476 --> 00:00:42,348\n好謝謝主席那我們先請吳秘書長請吳秘書長好秘書長早委員好在司法院我們解凍的這個報告當中我們有提及到國民法官制度那對於現行絕對評議的這個秘密原則進行檢討是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神\n\n2\n00:00:44,989 --> 00:01:10,078\n那依國民法官法第85條第二項的規定案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人得於裁判確定後申請閱覽評議意見但不得抄錄、攝影或影印而在這個上會期我們審議決議寫道實務上因為這個評議意見只有摘入摘要和結論所以沒有辦法得知結論的這個脈絡\n\n3\n00:01:12,399 --> 00:01:33,158\n若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決,恐會有失國人對司法院的信任。我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度從過去所做的一般民眾\n\n4\n00:01:34,412 --> 00:01:59,660\n對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮人身安全和各自保護有其優先性那從調查結果也能夠看到不論是否有實際的參與國民法官經驗都對於隱私和安全有相當的這個重視另外從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查\n\n5\n00:02:01,182 --> 00:02:27,008\n這個結果報告當中我們可以看到在影響參與審判意願的因素當中人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅但是在這個實際的參與審判之後這項疑慮占比降低了許多那我想請教秘書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告那頻密的緩和是否可能多大的這個程度影響到民眾參審的這個意願\n\n6\n00:02:30,407 --> 00:02:40,857\n因為在這個裁判在一般的這個裁判或案件審理那麼平易的\n\n7\n00:02:42,227 --> 00:02:42,387\n國民法官案件\n\n8\n00:03:01,564 --> 00:03:18,796\n他個人的隱私啊齁那這一方面如何保護齁這個是相對性的啦齁跟如何公開齁或越南這個是相對性的問題那這一方面齁我們刑事廳也有相當的一個也齁就這一方面有一個相當的對策\n\n9\n00:03:31,824 --> 00:03:44,984\n但是也不能犧牲掉我們當事人的這個權益應該讓當事人能夠探知評議的這個期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的這個判決結果\n\n10\n00:03:47,950 --> 00:04:11,083\n那這一次我們司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了這個其他國家的採用制度當然也有經過變身處理、開放當事人、閱覽、記載、詳盡的這個筆錄等方式但是在結論當中看起來我們還是保護國民法官為優先要再進行整體的這個評估那我還是再請教我們這個\n\n11\n00:04:13,705 --> 00:04:28,026\n秘書長對於司法院目前我們還是暫時不打算做出相關的這個調整以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民法官和當事人的權益嗎那接下來我們評估的修正方向是要\n\n12\n00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:49,359\n看我們這個之前的這個電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果才能夠再做重新的調整嗎?因為因為這個新進度的推行那尤其涉及到這種相對性的這個關係的那麼相對性的一個權利所以這一部分在\n\n13\n00:04:50,620 --> 00:05:06,944\n在司法院是很審慎的來會評估然後是隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題這個還是要很謹慎啦還是要很謹慎因為這個是相對性的有相對性的權利要保護啊\n\n14\n00:05:08,533 --> 00:05:22,721\n所以就是還要在...這個要很審慎啦,其實這方面要很審慎好,那接下來我想請教秘書長我們這個有關國民法官的制度我們在減變資源不對等的這個問題\n\n15\n00:05:23,982 --> 00:05:44,060\n我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮那因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪通常會有這個頂尖的這個檢察官來辦理但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下可能就會有資源和實力上的一個落差\n\n16\n00:05:44,580 --> 00:06:02,810\n那一樣從國民法官這個問卷調查結果報告的內容我們可以看到參與審判的這個國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予簡便雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多但我們還是看得出來對於檢察官的這個整體評價是高於\n\n17\n00:06:05,532 --> 00:06:21,182\n的這個部分這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況那我們許中立院長也曾經表示過了我們司法院作為國民法官制度的一個推動機關所需要這個\n\n18\n00:06:22,813 --> 00:06:33,411\n因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的這個市場機制來解決那我還是請教秘書長就是目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題\n\n19\n00:06:35,202 --> 00:06:58,676\n因為這些都要從人性面考量所以在這個法服歷史那一部分我們會盡量來提高它酬金的天花板在法院部分也有約聘辯護人這方面的一個招聘就盡量要讓辯護人方面的這個\n\n20\n00:06:59,697 --> 00:07:06,200\n從我們這個書面報告看起來我們還是大多朝向就是像剛剛秘書長陳如寧所說的提高我們律師的薪酬那也能夠提高辯護的量能\n\n21\n00:07:20,946 --> 00:07:42,247\n我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的一個方向那我還是請教秘書長是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓減變雙方的資源更加平衡這一部分我們書信廳這一方面我們其實都有相當的一個對策\n\n22\n00:07:44,067 --> 00:08:08,783\n委員好謝謝委員垂詢這個問題有關法服這個國法案件酬金的部分在今年因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們來擬據草案之後來送我們司法院核定之後再施行那目前的進度是這樣先跟委員報告就是有關這個國法案件的酬金有關基數的部分我們已經調高成一個基數為2000元那另外有關這個\n\n23\n00:08:28,334 --> 00:08:28,354\n好．\n\n24\n00:08:54,400 --> 00:09:12,537\n那也順便提高這個國法案件辯護的質與量以上報告謝謝是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告是好那另外我想請教我們秘書長就是除了我們促進民眾對國民法官的這個參與之外我們也期待辯護人能夠這個持續的參審\n\n25\n00:09:15,461 --> 00:09:31,431\n那司法院有沒有調查過曾經這個參加過參審的這個國民法官案件的辯護人他在參與的意願為何那或是他不想去參與的原因是什麼那這一部分聽裡面\n\n26\n00:09:34,421 --> 00:09:59,390\n報告委員這部分我們都有進行相關的這個問卷調查那這部分可能要再看詳細的資料其實對於編護人那沒關係那還是會後再給我一份這個書面報告簡單的書面報告那因為我們國民法官這一年多來有越來越多的案例可以做這個整體的檢討目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告\n\n27\n00:10:00,489 --> 00:10:19,057\n可以說做得相當的完整也非常的精美那還有很多項目可以參考和討論我也希望說我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日的出爐也能夠繼續來精進推動我們這個國民法官法的制度可以更完善\n\n28\n00:10:19,838 --> 00:10:31,073\n讓他符合我們當初設立的一個目標跟期待也能夠讓民眾再度對我們司法的一個信任的提高我請這部分我們請我們秘書長應該持續去加強把關以上\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n18476\t42348\t好謝謝主席那我們先請吳秘書長請吳秘書長好秘書長早委員好在司法院我們解凍的這個報告當中我們有提及到國民法官制度那對於現行絕對評議的這個秘密原則進行檢討是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神\n44989\t70078\t那依國民法官法第85條第二項的規定案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人得於裁判確定後申請閱覽評議意見但不得抄錄、攝影或影印而在這個上會期我們審議決議寫道實務上因為這個評議意見只有摘入摘要和結論所以沒有辦法得知結論的這個脈絡\n72399\t93158\t若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決,恐會有失國人對司法院的信任。我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度從過去所做的一般民眾\n94412\t119660\t對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮人身安全和各自保護有其優先性那從調查結果也能夠看到不論是否有實際的參與國民法官經驗都對於隱私和安全有相當的這個重視另外從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查\n121182\t147008\t這個結果報告當中我們可以看到在影響參與審判意願的因素當中人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅但是在這個實際的參與審判之後這項疑慮占比降低了許多那我想請教秘書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告那頻密的緩和是否可能多大的這個程度影響到民眾參審的這個意願\n150407\t160857\t因為在這個裁判在一般的這個裁判或案件審理那麼平易的\n162227\t162387\t國民法官案件\n181564\t198796\t他個人的隱私啊齁那這一方面如何保護齁這個是相對性的啦齁跟如何公開齁或越南這個是相對性的問題那這一方面齁我們刑事廳也有相當的一個也齁就這一方面有一個相當的對策\n211824\t224984\t但是也不能犧牲掉我們當事人的這個權益應該讓當事人能夠探知評議的這個期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的這個判決結果\n227950\t251083\t那這一次我們司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了這個其他國家的採用制度當然也有經過變身處理、開放當事人、閱覽、記載、詳盡的這個筆錄等方式但是在結論當中看起來我們還是保護國民法官為優先要再進行整體的這個評估那我還是再請教我們這個\n253705\t268026\t秘書長對於司法院目前我們還是暫時不打算做出相關的這個調整以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民法官和當事人的權益嗎那接下來我們評估的修正方向是要\n268959\t289359\t看我們這個之前的這個電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果才能夠再做重新的調整嗎?因為因為這個新進度的推行那尤其涉及到這種相對性的這個關係的那麼相對性的一個權利所以這一部分在\n290620\t306944\t在司法院是很審慎的來會評估然後是隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題這個還是要很謹慎啦還是要很謹慎因為這個是相對性的有相對性的權利要保護啊\n308533\t322721\t所以就是還要在...這個要很審慎啦,其實這方面要很審慎好,那接下來我想請教秘書長我們這個有關國民法官的制度我們在減變資源不對等的這個問題\n323982\t344060\t我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮那因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪通常會有這個頂尖的這個檢察官來辦理但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下可能就會有資源和實力上的一個落差\n344580\t362810\t那一樣從國民法官這個問卷調查結果報告的內容我們可以看到參與審判的這個國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予簡便雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多但我們還是看得出來對於檢察官的這個整體評價是高於\n365532\t381182\t的這個部分這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況那我們許中立院長也曾經表示過了我們司法院作為國民法官制度的一個推動機關所需要這個\n382813\t393411\t因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的這個市場機制來解決那我還是請教秘書長就是目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題\n395202\t418676\t因為這些都要從人性面考量所以在這個法服歷史那一部分我們會盡量來提高它酬金的天花板在法院部分也有約聘辯護人這方面的一個招聘就盡量要讓辯護人方面的這個\n419697\t426200\t從我們這個書面報告看起來我們還是大多朝向就是像剛剛秘書長陳如寧所說的提高我們律師的薪酬那也能夠提高辯護的量能\n440946\t462247\t我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的一個方向那我還是請教秘書長是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓減變雙方的資源更加平衡這一部分我們書信廳這一方面我們其實都有相當的一個對策\n464067\t488783\t委員好謝謝委員垂詢這個問題有關法服這個國法案件酬金的部分在今年因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們來擬據草案之後來送我們司法院核定之後再施行那目前的進度是這樣先跟委員報告就是有關這個國法案件的酬金有關基數的部分我們已經調高成一個基數為2000元那另外有關這個\n493166\t508234\t﹗\n508334\t508354\t好．\n534400\t552537\t那也順便提高這個國法案件辯護的質與量以上報告謝謝是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告是好那另外我想請教我們秘書長就是除了我們促進民眾對國民法官的這個參與之外我們也期待辯護人能夠這個持續的參審\n555461\t571431\t那司法院有沒有調查過曾經這個參加過參審的這個國民法官案件的辯護人他在參與的意願為何那或是他不想去參與的原因是什麼那這一部分聽裡面\n574421\t599390\t報告委員這部分我們都有進行相關的這個問卷調查那這部分可能要再看詳細的資料其實對於編護人那沒關係那還是會後再給我一份這個書面報告簡單的書面報告那因為我們國民法官這一年多來有越來越多的案例可以做這個整體的檢討目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告\n600489\t619057\t可以說做得相當的完整也非常的精美那還有很多項目可以參考和討論我也希望說我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日的出爐也能夠繼續來精進推動我們這個國民法官法的制度可以更完善\n619838\t631073\t讓他符合我們當初設立的一個目標跟期待也能夠讓民眾再度對我們司法的一個信任的提高我請這部分我們請我們秘書長應該持續去加強把關以上\n","txt":"好謝謝主席那我們先請吳秘書長請吳秘書長好秘書長早委員好在司法院我們解凍的這個報告當中我們有提及到國民法官制度那對於現行絕對評議的這個秘密原則進行檢討是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神\n那依國民法官法第85條第二項的規定案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人得於裁判確定後申請閱覽評議意見但不得抄錄、攝影或影印而在這個上會期我們審議決議寫道實務上因為這個評議意見只有摘入摘要和結論所以沒有辦法得知結論的這個脈絡\n若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決,恐會有失國人對司法院的信任。我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度從過去所做的一般民眾\n對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮人身安全和各自保護有其優先性那從調查結果也能夠看到不論是否有實際的參與國民法官經驗都對於隱私和安全有相當的這個重視另外從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查\n這個結果報告當中我們可以看到在影響參與審判意願的因素當中人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅但是在這個實際的參與審判之後這項疑慮占比降低了許多那我想請教秘書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告那頻密的緩和是否可能多大的這個程度影響到民眾參審的這個意願\n因為在這個裁判在一般的這個裁判或案件審理那麼平易的\n國民法官案件\n他個人的隱私啊齁那這一方面如何保護齁這個是相對性的啦齁跟如何公開齁或越南這個是相對性的問題那這一方面齁我們刑事廳也有相當的一個也齁就這一方面有一個相當的對策\n但是也不能犧牲掉我們當事人的這個權益應該讓當事人能夠探知評議的這個期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的這個判決結果\n那這一次我們司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了這個其他國家的採用制度當然也有經過變身處理、開放當事人、閱覽、記載、詳盡的這個筆錄等方式但是在結論當中看起來我們還是保護國民法官為優先要再進行整體的這個評估那我還是再請教我們這個\n秘書長對於司法院目前我們還是暫時不打算做出相關的這個調整以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民法官和當事人的權益嗎那接下來我們評估的修正方向是要\n看我們這個之前的這個電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果才能夠再做重新的調整嗎?因為因為這個新進度的推行那尤其涉及到這種相對性的這個關係的那麼相對性的一個權利所以這一部分在\n在司法院是很審慎的來會評估然後是隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題這個還是要很謹慎啦還是要很謹慎因為這個是相對性的有相對性的權利要保護啊\n所以就是還要在...這個要很審慎啦,其實這方面要很審慎好,那接下來我想請教秘書長我們這個有關國民法官的制度我們在減變資源不對等的這個問題\n我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮那因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪通常會有這個頂尖的這個檢察官來辦理但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下可能就會有資源和實力上的一個落差\n那一樣從國民法官這個問卷調查結果報告的內容我們可以看到參與審判的這個國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予簡便雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多但我們還是看得出來對於檢察官的這個整體評價是高於\n的這個部分這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況那我們許中立院長也曾經表示過了我們司法院作為國民法官制度的一個推動機關所需要這個\n因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的這個市場機制來解決那我還是請教秘書長就是目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題\n因為這些都要從人性面考量所以在這個法服歷史那一部分我們會盡量來提高它酬金的天花板在法院部分也有約聘辯護人這方面的一個招聘就盡量要讓辯護人方面的這個\n從我們這個書面報告看起來我們還是大多朝向就是像剛剛秘書長陳如寧所說的提高我們律師的薪酬那也能夠提高辯護的量能\n我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的一個方向那我還是請教秘書長是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓減變雙方的資源更加平衡這一部分我們書信廳這一方面我們其實都有相當的一個對策\n委員好謝謝委員垂詢這個問題有關法服這個國法案件酬金的部分在今年因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們來擬據草案之後來送我們司法院核定之後再施行那目前的進度是這樣先跟委員報告就是有關這個國法案件的酬金有關基數的部分我們已經調高成一個基數為2000元那另外有關這個\n﹗\n好．\n那也順便提高這個國法案件辯護的質與量以上報告謝謝是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告是好那另外我想請教我們秘書長就是除了我們促進民眾對國民法官的這個參與之外我們也期待辯護人能夠這個持續的參審\n那司法院有沒有調查過曾經這個參加過參審的這個國民法官案件的辯護人他在參與的意願為何那或是他不想去參與的原因是什麼那這一部分聽裡面\n報告委員這部分我們都有進行相關的這個問卷調查那這部分可能要再看詳細的資料其實對於編護人那沒關係那還是會後再給我一份這個書面報告簡單的書面報告那因為我們國民法官這一年多來有越來越多的案例可以做這個整體的檢討目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告\n可以說做得相當的完整也非常的精美那還有很多項目可以參考和討論我也希望說我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日的出爐也能夠繼續來精進推動我們這個國民法官法的制度可以更完善\n讓他符合我們當初設立的一個目標跟期待也能夠讓民眾再度對我們司法的一個信任的提高我請這部分我們請我們秘書長應該持續去加強把關以上\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:18.476 --> 00:42.348\n好謝謝主席那我們先請吳秘書長請吳秘書長好秘書長早委員好在司法院我們解凍的這個報告當中我們有提及到國民法官制度那對於現行絕對評議的這個秘密原則進行檢討是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神\n\n00:44.989 --> 01:10.078\n那依國民法官法第85條第二項的規定案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人得於裁判確定後申請閱覽評議意見但不得抄錄、攝影或影印而在這個上會期我們審議決議寫道實務上因為這個評議意見只有摘入摘要和結論所以沒有辦法得知結論的這個脈絡\n\n01:12.399 --> 01:33.158\n若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決,恐會有失國人對司法院的信任。我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度從過去所做的一般民眾\n\n01:34.412 --> 01:59.660\n對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮人身安全和各自保護有其優先性那從調查結果也能夠看到不論是否有實際的參與國民法官經驗都對於隱私和安全有相當的這個重視另外從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查\n\n02:01.182 --> 02:27.008\n這個結果報告當中我們可以看到在影響參與審判意願的因素當中人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅但是在這個實際的參與審判之後這項疑慮占比降低了許多那我想請教秘書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告那頻密的緩和是否可能多大的這個程度影響到民眾參審的這個意願\n\n02:30.407 --> 02:40.857\n因為在這個裁判在一般的這個裁判或案件審理那麼平易的\n\n02:42.227 --> 02:42.387\n國民法官案件\n\n03:01.564 --> 03:18.796\n他個人的隱私啊齁那這一方面如何保護齁這個是相對性的啦齁跟如何公開齁或越南這個是相對性的問題那這一方面齁我們刑事廳也有相當的一個也齁就這一方面有一個相當的對策\n\n03:31.824 --> 03:44.984\n但是也不能犧牲掉我們當事人的這個權益應該讓當事人能夠探知評議的這個期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的這個判決結果\n\n03:47.950 --> 04:11.083\n那這一次我們司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了這個其他國家的採用制度當然也有經過變身處理、開放當事人、閱覽、記載、詳盡的這個筆錄等方式但是在結論當中看起來我們還是保護國民法官為優先要再進行整體的這個評估那我還是再請教我們這個\n\n04:13.705 --> 04:28.026\n秘書長對於司法院目前我們還是暫時不打算做出相關的這個調整以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民法官和當事人的權益嗎那接下來我們評估的修正方向是要\n\n04:28.959 --> 04:49.359\n看我們這個之前的這個電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果才能夠再做重新的調整嗎?因為因為這個新進度的推行那尤其涉及到這種相對性的這個關係的那麼相對性的一個權利所以這一部分在\n\n04:50.620 --> 05:06.944\n在司法院是很審慎的來會評估然後是隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題這個還是要很謹慎啦還是要很謹慎因為這個是相對性的有相對性的權利要保護啊\n\n05:08.533 --> 05:22.721\n所以就是還要在...這個要很審慎啦,其實這方面要很審慎好,那接下來我想請教秘書長我們這個有關國民法官的制度我們在減變資源不對等的這個問題\n\n05:23.982 --> 05:44.060\n我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮那因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪通常會有這個頂尖的這個檢察官來辦理但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下可能就會有資源和實力上的一個落差\n\n05:44.580 --> 06:02.810\n那一樣從國民法官這個問卷調查結果報告的內容我們可以看到參與審判的這個國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予簡便雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多但我們還是看得出來對於檢察官的這個整體評價是高於\n\n06:05.532 --> 06:21.182\n的這個部分這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況那我們許中立院長也曾經表示過了我們司法院作為國民法官制度的一個推動機關所需要這個\n\n06:22.813 --> 06:33.411\n因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的這個市場機制來解決那我還是請教秘書長就是目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題\n\n06:35.202 --> 06:58.676\n因為這些都要從人性面考量所以在這個法服歷史那一部分我們會盡量來提高它酬金的天花板在法院部分也有約聘辯護人這方面的一個招聘就盡量要讓辯護人方面的這個\n\n06:59.697 --> 07:06.200\n從我們這個書面報告看起來我們還是大多朝向就是像剛剛秘書長陳如寧所說的提高我們律師的薪酬那也能夠提高辯護的量能\n\n07:20.946 --> 07:42.247\n我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的一個方向那我還是請教秘書長是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓減變雙方的資源更加平衡這一部分我們書信廳這一方面我們其實都有相當的一個對策\n\n07:44.067 --> 08:08.783\n委員好謝謝委員垂詢這個問題有關法服這個國法案件酬金的部分在今年因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們來擬據草案之後來送我們司法院核定之後再施行那目前的進度是這樣先跟委員報告就是有關這個國法案件的酬金有關基數的部分我們已經調高成一個基數為2000元那另外有關這個\n\n08:28.334 --> 08:28.354\n好．\n\n08:54.400 --> 09:12.537\n那也順便提高這個國法案件辯護的質與量以上報告謝謝是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告是好那另外我想請教我們秘書長就是除了我們促進民眾對國民法官的這個參與之外我們也期待辯護人能夠這個持續的參審\n\n09:15.461 --> 09:31.431\n那司法院有沒有調查過曾經這個參加過參審的這個國民法官案件的辯護人他在參與的意願為何那或是他不想去參與的原因是什麼那這一部分聽裡面\n\n09:34.421 --> 09:59.390\n報告委員這部分我們都有進行相關的這個問卷調查那這部分可能要再看詳細的資料其實對於編護人那沒關係那還是會後再給我一份這個書面報告簡單的書面報告那因為我們國民法官這一年多來有越來越多的案例可以做這個整體的檢討目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告\n\n10:00.489 --> 10:19.057\n可以說做得相當的完整也非常的精美那還有很多項目可以參考和討論我也希望說我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日的出爐也能夠繼續來精進推動我們這個國民法官法的制度可以更完善\n\n10:19.838 --> 10:31.073\n讓他符合我們當初設立的一個目標跟期待也能夠讓民眾再度對我們司法的一個信任的提高我請這部分我們請我們秘書長應該持續去加強把關以上\n\n","segments":[{"start":18.476,"end":42.348,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們先請吳秘書長請吳秘書長好秘書長早委員好在司法院我們解凍的這個報告當中我們有提及到國民法官制度那對於現行絕對評議的這個秘密原則進行檢討是否能夠落實國民法官法賦予當事人對於評議意見閱覽權的這種精神"},{"start":44.989,"end":70.078,"text":"那依國民法官法第85條第二項的規定案件之當事人、辯護人或輔佐人得於裁判確定後申請閱覽評議意見但不得抄錄、攝影或影印而在這個上會期我們審議決議寫道實務上因為這個評議意見只有摘入摘要和結論所以沒有辦法得知結論的這個脈絡"},{"start":72.399,"end":93.158,"text":"若評議的過程有歧視性的偏見而影響到判決,恐會有失國人對司法院的信任。我們從司法院這次提供的書面報告可以看到司法院對於評議秘密應該還有比較保守的態度從過去所做的一般民眾"},{"start":94.412,"end":119.66,"text":"對於國民法官制度的認知調查也可以看到民眾對於擔任國民法官的疑慮人身安全和各自保護有其優先性那從調查結果也能夠看到不論是否有實際的參與國民法官經驗都對於隱私和安全有相當的這個重視另外從上個月所公布的國民法官問卷調查"},{"start":121.182,"end":147.008,"text":"這個結果報告當中我們可以看到在影響參與審判意願的因素當中人身安全和個人隱私的疑慮還是名列前茅但是在這個實際的參與審判之後這項疑慮占比降低了許多那我想請教秘書長怎麼來解讀這個調查報告那頻密的緩和是否可能多大的這個程度影響到民眾參審的這個意願"},{"start":150.407,"end":160.857,"text":"因為在這個裁判在一般的這個裁判或案件審理那麼平易的"},{"start":162.227,"end":162.387,"text":"國民法官案件"},{"start":181.564,"end":198.796,"text":"他個人的隱私啊齁那這一方面如何保護齁這個是相對性的啦齁跟如何公開齁或越南這個是相對性的問題那這一方面齁我們刑事廳也有相當的一個也齁就這一方面有一個相當的對策"},{"start":211.824,"end":224.984,"text":"但是也不能犧牲掉我們當事人的這個權益應該讓當事人能夠探知評議的這個期間有沒有被引導的這種權威效應或是歧視性的言論影響到後續的這個判決結果"},{"start":227.95,"end":251.083,"text":"那這一次我們司法院的書面報告裡面也確實研究了這個其他國家的採用制度當然也有經過變身處理、開放當事人、閱覽、記載、詳盡的這個筆錄等方式但是在結論當中看起來我們還是保護國民法官為優先要再進行整體的這個評估那我還是再請教我們這個"},{"start":253.705,"end":268.026,"text":"秘書長對於司法院目前我們還是暫時不打算做出相關的這個調整以去識別化的方式來兼顧國民法官和當事人的權益嗎那接下來我們評估的修正方向是要"},{"start":268.959,"end":289.359,"text":"看我們這個之前的這個電話訪談還有問卷調查的結果才能夠再做重新的調整嗎?因為因為這個新進度的推行那尤其涉及到這種相對性的這個關係的那麼相對性的一個權利所以這一部分在"},{"start":290.62,"end":306.944,"text":"在司法院是很審慎的來會評估然後是隨時滾動性的去面對這種問題這個還是要很謹慎啦還是要很謹慎因為這個是相對性的有相對性的權利要保護啊"},{"start":308.533,"end":322.721,"text":"所以就是還要在...這個要很審慎啦,其實這方面要很審慎好,那接下來我想請教秘書長我們這個有關國民法官的制度我們在減變資源不對等的這個問題"},{"start":323.982,"end":344.06,"text":"我想這個問題也是我們國民法官實施這一年多來很多人提出的疑慮那因為國民法官所審理的案件多半都是重罪通常會有這個頂尖的這個檢察官來辦理但在律師參與的誘因相對不足的情況之下可能就會有資源和實力上的一個落差"},{"start":344.58,"end":362.81,"text":"那一樣從國民法官這個問卷調查結果報告的內容我們可以看到參與審判的這個國民法官對於法庭上活動的感受給予簡便雙方的評價基本上都是正面居多但我們還是看得出來對於檢察官的這個整體評價是高於"},{"start":365.532,"end":381.182,"text":"的這個部分這項調查或許也呼應到現在國民法官制度的現實情況那我們許中立院長也曾經表示過了我們司法院作為國民法官制度的一個推動機關所需要這個"},{"start":382.813,"end":393.411,"text":"因應的作為不能消極指望藉由律師的這個市場機制來解決那我還是請教秘書長就是目前我們司法院如何來積極回應這個問題"},{"start":395.202,"end":418.676,"text":"因為這些都要從人性面考量所以在這個法服歷史那一部分我們會盡量來提高它酬金的天花板在法院部分也有約聘辯護人這方面的一個招聘就盡量要讓辯護人方面的這個"},{"start":419.697,"end":426.2,"text":"從我們這個書面報告看起來我們還是大多朝向就是像剛剛秘書長陳如寧所說的提高我們律師的薪酬那也能夠提高辯護的量能"},{"start":440.946,"end":462.247,"text":"我們也認同對於提高薪酬是一個很直觀也必須要做的一個方向那我還是請教秘書長是不是還有其他的措施能夠讓減變雙方的資源更加平衡這一部分我們書信廳這一方面我們其實都有相當的一個對策"},{"start":464.067,"end":488.783,"text":"委員好謝謝委員垂詢這個問題有關法服這個國法案件酬金的部分在今年因為通常這種酬金的調整都是由基金會他們來擬據草案之後來送我們司法院核定之後再施行那目前的進度是這樣先跟委員報告就是有關這個國法案件的酬金有關基數的部分我們已經調高成一個基數為2000元那另外有關這個"},{"start":493.166,"end":508.234,"text":"﹗"},{"start":508.334,"end":508.354,"text":"好．"},{"start":534.4,"end":552.537,"text":"那也順便提高這個國法案件辯護的質與量以上報告謝謝是不是剛剛所說的部分可以會後給我一份簡單的書面報告是好那另外我想請教我們秘書長就是除了我們促進民眾對國民法官的這個參與之外我們也期待辯護人能夠這個持續的參審"},{"start":555.461,"end":571.431,"text":"那司法院有沒有調查過曾經這個參加過參審的這個國民法官案件的辯護人他在參與的意願為何那或是他不想去參與的原因是什麼那這一部分聽裡面"},{"start":574.421,"end":599.39,"text":"報告委員這部分我們都有進行相關的這個問卷調查那這部分可能要再看詳細的資料其實對於編護人那沒關係那還是會後再給我一份這個書面報告簡單的書面報告那因為我們國民法官這一年多來有越來越多的案例可以做這個整體的檢討目前看到這一份我們所做的國民法官問卷調查結果報告"},{"start":600.489,"end":619.057,"text":"可以說做得相當的完整也非常的精美那還有很多項目可以參考和討論我也希望說我們司法院的成效評估報告能夠早日的出爐也能夠繼續來精進推動我們這個國民法官法的制度可以更完善"},{"start":619.838,"end":631.073,"text":"讓他符合我們當初設立的一個目標跟期待也能夠讓民眾再度對我們司法的一個信任的提高我請這部分我們請我們秘書長應該持續去加強把關以上"}]}}}}