{"id":152378,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152378","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792dc28e508c0815e420b4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7ba4ee290179ce0185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:31:10 - 11:43:43","影片長度":"00:12:33","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":753,"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:43:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T11:31:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時31分）謝謝召委，請法務部及金管會。"],["主席：法務部黃署長、金管會施局長。"],["吳委員宗憲：今天的提案我非常支持啦！"],["主席：謝謝。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以有參與連署，但是我等一下問的問題可能就比較離題，比較不好意思，但是我非常支持召委的這個提案。","謝謝兩位，我先請教金管會，因為這段時間詐欺案件一直暴增，除了一些福國利民的法案之外，我們也要去思考、把一些對社會傷害比較大的事情想想看要怎麼去處理，當然所有的處理其實司法本來應該是最末端，行政是前端就要處理，結果我們現在有一點顛倒了，我們把所有社會上面發生的事情就丟給檢警調去處理，其實這個邏輯上是錯的，應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好，才會減少後階段司法的負荷，並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情發生。","我上個月有去參加高檢署的打詐研討會，其實研討會裡面這些問題大概都是老生常談了，我們都知道現在詐欺集團有一個最重要的東西，他對於這個金流一定要有辦法，他一定要拿到你的錢才有詐騙的意義，所以他非常需要一些工具，這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶、電子支付帳戶、個人幣商、第三方支付帳戶或者是電信門號。","但是這段時間，我們從現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來，這幾年人頭帳戶的起訴率大概只有三成，其實這個原因有非常多，不能都怪司法，第一個，刑事訴訟制採嚴格的證據主義；再來，其實有很多帳戶持有人自己是被害人，所以對於這個起訴率高跟低，我不在這上面下一個價值的判斷。","但我這邊要提的一個點就是，當我們想到的是第一層的帳戶，那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶？我覺得這是目前一個很大的漏洞，被害人把錢匯過去的那個就是第一層的帳戶，但是被害人錢匯過去之後，這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層。關於第二層跟第三層帳戶，我請問一下金管會，你們有在管理、有在監控這個部分嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：報告委員，這個部分因為是我們銀行局在主政的業務，所以我對這個比較不熟悉，可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那這樣好了，我也不為難，我提一個東西，今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶，也就是被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶，但是事實上，幕後首腦要拿到這些錢會透過第一層轉到第二層、再轉到第三層，轉了好幾層之後才會進到背後操控者的手中。這一段時間我發現一個狀況，就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管，這個東西其實應該是金管會要去管的，這個不是由檢察機關或什麼，他們已經沒有那麼多人力了，所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決？對於第二層帳戶跟第三層帳戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作，讓被害人可以拿回錢，因為所有被害人來找我，他心中只想一件事情，就是他的錢拿不拿得回來，至於被告被判刑與否，他說他一點都不在意，他只希望把錢拿回來，救他這個家庭，結果我們把真正該做的事情、我們放錯重點了，你放在第一層帳戶，那些很多還是被害人，起訴率又很低，結果真正錢被傳過去，放在第二層、第三層，你又不及時圈存，金管會在這邊完全不動作，你反而讓這些犯罪行為人都能夠享受到這些犯罪所得，這是不應該的！而且政府在這一關上面非常的失職，我是第一線的檢察官出身的，我知道第二層、第三層沒有人管，這會害慘這個國家的人民！","所以麻煩金管會要注意，而且這個東西一定要由金管會出面，銀行局那邊要求各個銀行一定要落實去看第二層、第三層的帳戶，因為有非常多第二層、第三層的帳戶已經在非常多的案件中出現過了，但還是持續可以使用，這真的不應該！而且你在判決裡面看到很多帳戶都重複出現，結果卻沒有人管，好不好？"],["施局長瓊華：好。"],["吳委員宗憲：如果你看不懂，我跟你講，你看一下剛剛那張圖，它的金流很簡單，被害人錢匯到第一層，第一層再轉到第二層，第二層再到第三層，最後轉到一些虛擬幣或幣商轉給……因為它去中心化，到最後才轉給真正幕後那個人，你根本追不到，結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面一個、一個不見了。"],["施局長瓊華：是，報告委員，是不是我轉給銀行局再跟委員報告？"],["吳委員宗憲：好，非常重要！看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回復，好不好？"],["施局長瓊華：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你再看，警示帳戶從110年到112年一直在增加，等於每天有75個新的警示帳戶，這個很恐怖啦！等於你管理完全失能了，就是因為管理失能，所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張、這麼好騙錢！導致現在社會上的民怨中，電信詐欺就是首要的。","當然我們知道現在你們有要求銀行要做好KYC，但是做KYC沒有太大的用處，他在開戶的時候就是一個正常的老百姓，可是事後怎麼去使用、怎麼提供給犯罪集團，這個你追不到，所以你去做KYC沒有錯，可是你要知道不是只做KYC，只做KYC沒有辦法杜絕越來越多的人頭帳戶，其實我知道管理人頭帳戶也不是沒有效果，我知道大家都很努力，所以人頭帳戶從我以前當檢察官初期一本3,000塊，到現在一本要二、三十萬，這是政府打詐的成果沒有錯，但是我覺得還是要積極做，因為現在每年新出來的人頭帳戶還是一大堆，而且數量一直在往上增加。","我給你看一個判決的附表，它就講得很清楚，有第二層跟第三層帳戶，結果政府沒有去處理，這很不應該，好不好？麻煩你們要注意這個點。","接下來我們請法務部。我現在要跟你們談AI智慧輔助系統。當初我們提這個AI輔助系統，其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作，我們用AI來去取代。我們看一下這些年110年的總預算，這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了，111年花了一千一百多萬，後面112年花了900萬，也就是說我們其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置，我想請問你現在效果如何？"],["黃署長玉垣：委員，因為我是行政執行署署長，這方面應該是檢察……"],["吳委員宗憲：你也是檢察官出身的啊！"],["黃署長玉垣：對，但我只能講說如果以我行政執行署角度的話，AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點，以行政執行署來講，在對這種打詐前端的設備，檢察官也感謝立法院的支持跟預算跟行政院的撥用，我行政執行署可以做的是，詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候，在偵查中檢察官要變賣，不管是泰達幣或者是其他的動產，我們行政執行署在第一時間就會予以變賣，符合剛才委員所講的，被害人最關心的就是他的錢到底能不能要回來，我們行政執行署是扮演這個角色，所以在AI這邊，行政執行署也有加強，不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我帶回去，由我們的權責單位來跟委員做報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我知道，因為您以前在檢方也是我很尊敬的長官。"],["黃署長玉垣：不敢。"],["吳委員宗憲：您也很能瞭解在審理案件的時候，其實被害人在乎的是錢拿不拿得回來，如果我們運作的模式是讓他拿不回錢，我只是抓到被告，其實這個對國人沒有意義啊！他的錢還是拿不回來，所以他不會在乎這個點，我覺得我們要打對這個點。","我再跟您說明一下，有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部說一下。我在幾場公聽會上，學者跟專家都抱怨目前這個AI輔助系統的效果非常不彰，我再回去問了一下基層的檢察官，他們給我的講法是這樣，簡單的案件檢察官不想用，困難的案件以現階段AI的狀況根本用不了，像酒駕好了，如果他套用自己習慣的例稿，他十分鐘可以寫完一篇書類，結果他用AI生成出來的例稿，他還要花時間去看到底對不對，內容還亂七八糟，這就是所有基層檢察官跟我說的，難的話，你給它肅貪案件、金融案件，但是它根本辦不了，所以我們花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值到底在哪裡？用AI去發展未來，我覺得是對的，但是現階段是不是實用，可能要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點。","我們回過頭去看。我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告，而且我希望一個禮拜內提出來，因為馬上就520了，我們希望的數據是符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少、實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度，因為我認為錢要花在刀口上，這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算。","最後，我希望法務部要注意一下資源的分配，與其在那邊趕流行去搞AI的書類輔助系統，你不如去思考檢警調資料的交換電子化以及電子卷證制度，我以前在新北市府法制局時，我都要求無紙化，開會全部都是用電子檔案，警察能不能夠把他的移送報告電子檔直接給檢察官、給書記官，讓他可以直接引用以簡化書記官的作業，如果現場有在實務第一線的檢察官聽到，他可能會非常感動，終於有人想到這件事了，好不好？再麻煩法務部想一下。"],["黃署長玉垣：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有提升遠端視訊設備，減緩警察解送人犯還有檢察官在地檢署等移送人犯這件事，你也知道有時候屏東還要送到臺北，警察人力太辛苦了！好，在這邊就麻煩您能夠向法務部反映這件事，然後一個禮拜給我報告，謝謝。"],["黃署長玉垣：謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委、謝謝署長。接下來請羅委員智強質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","羅智強","李坤城","吳宗憲","黃珊珊","傅崐萁","翁曉玲"],"page_start":65,"meetingDate":["2024-05-09"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債\n未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案","agenda_id":"1134301_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152378","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152378","tool":"pyannote","id":"152378-pyannote"},"job_id":"K5McIT4r1SBeKxA3","queued_at":"2024-05-31 09:40:36","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 09:40:36","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152378"},{"time":"2024-05-31 09:40:37","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792dc28e508c0815e420b4f9ff50c8f2c1879a45d36a9744e1e8eb83c750fe5c49865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-31 09:40:58","msg":"converting mp4 to 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\"嗎\"}]}, {\"start\": 184.008, \"end\": 201.511, \"text\": \"報告委員,這個部分因為是我們銀行級在主政的業務,所以我可能對這個比較不熟悉,可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。好,那這樣好了,我也不為難,我提一個東西。\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 184.008, \"end\": 184.208, \"score\": 0.898}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 184.208, \"end\": 184.809, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \",\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 184.809, \"end\": 184.969, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 184.969, \"end\": 185.15, \"score\": 0.991}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 185.15, \"end\": 185.53, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 185.53, \"end\": 185.75, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 185.75, \"end\": 186.231, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"銀\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 186.231, \"end\": 186.692, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"級\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 186.692, \"end\": 186.892, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": 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\"我們今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶也就是說被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶但是事實上幕後的首腦他要拿到這些錢他會透過這個從第一層再轉到第二層轉到第三層轉了好幾層之後才會進到那個背後的這個操控者他們的手中那這段時間呢我發現一個狀況就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 202.597, \"end\": 202.917, \"score\": 0.937}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"今\", \"start\": 202.917, \"end\": 203.117, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"天\", \"start\": 203.117, \"end\": 203.358, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 203.358, \"end\": 203.658, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"司\", \"start\": 203.658, \"end\": 203.898, \"score\": 0.975}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 203.898, \"end\": 204.118, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 204.118, \"end\": 204.318, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"面\", \"start\": 204.318, \"end\": 204.638, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"大\", \"start\": 204.638, \"end\": 204.859, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"家\", \"start\": 204.859, \"end\": 205.319, \"score\": 0.951}, {\"word\": \"處\"}, {\"word\": \"理\", \"start\": 205.319, \"end\": 205.439, \"score\": 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\"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 751.262, \"end\": 751.422, \"score\": 0.906}, {\"word\": \"好\", \"start\": 751.422, \"end\": 751.442, \"score\": 0.238}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:08,547 --> 00:00:10,429\n法務部黃署長、金管會司局長\n\n2\n00:00:37,933 --> 00:00:46,058\n主要是這樣啦,就是因為這段時間啊,詐欺案件一直暴增嘛,那除了一些福國利民的法案之外,我們也要去思考\n\n3\n00:00:46,918 --> 00:00:47,278\n主席主席主席\n\n4\n00:01:08,853 --> 00:01:29,060\n應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好他才會減少後階段司法的負荷並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情的發生那我想說我上個月有去參加高檢署的那個打詐的研討會那研討會裡面其實\n\n5\n00:01:31,901 --> 00:01:55,969\n這些問題大概都是老生常談了啦我們都知道現在詐欺集團他有一個最重要的東西他這個金流一定要有辦法他一定要拿到你的錢他才有這個詐騙的意義所以呢他非常的需要一些工具那這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶啦電子支付帳戶個人幣商或第三方支付的帳戶或者是那個電信的門號那\n\n6\n00:01:58,331 --> 00:02:14,353\n但是這段時間我們從這個數據我現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來其實這幾年起訴人頭賬戶的起訴率大概只有三成其實這個原因有非常多這個不能說都怪司法\n\n7\n00:02:14,773 --> 00:02:33,188\n因為當然第一個刑事訴訟制裁嚴格的證據主義再來就是其實有很多賬戶持有人他自己是被害人所以這個起訴率高跟低我不在這個上面去下一個價值的判斷但是呢我這邊要提的一個點就是當我們想到的是第一\n\n8\n00:02:35,302 --> 00:03:01,980\n第一層的帳戶那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶我覺得這個是目前一個很大的一個漏洞第一層的帳戶就是被害人把錢匯過去的那個是第一層的帳戶但是呢被害人他錢匯過去之後這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層那這個第二層跟第三層帳戶我請問一下金管會你們有在管理這個有在監控這個部分嗎\n\n9\n00:03:04,008 --> 00:03:21,511\n報告委員,這個部分因為是我們銀行級在主政的業務,所以我可能對這個比較不熟悉,可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。好,那這樣好了,我也不為難,我提一個東西。\n\n10\n00:03:22,597 --> 00:03:51,136\n我們今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶也就是說被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶但是事實上幕後的首腦他要拿到這些錢他會透過這個從第一層再轉到第二層轉到第三層轉了好幾層之後才會進到那個背後的這個操控者他們的手中那這段時間呢我發現一個狀況就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管\n\n11\n00:03:52,943 --> 00:04:15,329\n這個東西其實應該是金管會要去管的這個不是那個檢查機關或什麼他們已經沒有那麼多人力了所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決第二層賬戶跟第三層賬戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作讓被害人可以拿回錢因為我跟你說所有的被害人來找我\n\n12\n00:04:15,669 --> 00:04:37,859\n他心中只想一件事情我錢拿不拿得回來至於被告被判刑與否他說我一點都不在意我只希望錢拿回來救我這個家庭結果我們把真正該做的事情我們放錯重點了你放在第一層賬戶那些很多還是被害人起訴率又很低結果真正錢傳過去錢放在第二層第三層\n\n13\n00:05:10,341 --> 00:05:24,454\n這2層3層這個帳戶因為有非常多2層3層的帳戶他已經在非常多案件中出現過了可是還是持續可以用這真的不應該而且你在判決裡面看到有很多帳戶都重複出現結果沒有人管好不好\n\n14\n00:05:25,975 --> 00:05:48,414\n所以我如果你看不懂我跟你講你看一下剛剛那張圖他的金流很簡單被害人錢匯到一層一層再轉到二層二層再到三層最後轉到一些虛擬幣或幣商轉給因為他去那個中心化到最後轉給真正幕後的那個人你根本追不到結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面就一個一個不見了\n\n15\n00:05:56,081 --> 00:06:09,892\n請看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回覆好不好那你再看喔我們看警示帳戶從110年到112年其實我們警示帳戶一直在增加等於是每天有75個新的警示帳戶\n\n16\n00:06:12,294 --> 00:06:27,289\n這是很恐怖的啊等於是你管理完全失能了就是因為管理失能所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張這麼好騙錢那導致現在社會上面民怨就是詐欺電信詐欺就是首要的\n\n17\n00:06:53,490 --> 00:06:53,970\n好那我們再往下看\n\n18\n00:07:23,268 --> 00:07:23,969\n主席\n\n19\n00:07:38,708 --> 00:07:56,498\n接下來我們請法務部我現在跟你們談的一個東西是AI的智慧輔助系統當初我們提這個AI的輔助系統其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作我們用AI來去取代那我們看一下這些年\n\n20\n00:07:57,358 --> 00:08:20,146\n一百一十年的總預算這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了一百一十一年花了一千一百萬一千一百多那後面一一二年九百也就是說我們這些年其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置那我想請問你一下那現在效果呢\n\n21\n00:08:22,054 --> 00:08:43,733\n是委員因為我是行政執行署署長那這方面應該是檢察你也是檢察官出身的對只能講說如果以我行政執行署的角度的話AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點那以行政執行署來講在對這種打詐的話這種前端的設備這是檢察官也感謝那個立法院的支持這預算跟行政院的撥用\n\n22\n00:08:44,093 --> 00:09:13,842\n但我行政執行署可以用的是在詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候在偵查中檢察官要變賣不管是泰拉幣啦或者是其他的動產的話我們行政執行署在第一個時間就會予以變賣符合剛才委員所講的被害人所最關心的就是外籍到底能不能要回來所以我們行政執行署扮演這個角色所以我們在AI這邊的話行政執行署也有加強不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我那個帶回去那由我們的\n\n23\n00:09:14,042 --> 00:09:20,745\n我只是抓到被告其實這個對國人沒有意義阿他的錢還是拿不回來所以他不會在乎這個點我覺得我們要打對這個點\n\n24\n00:09:43,374 --> 00:10:05,635\n那我再跟您說明一下就是這幾個有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部那個說一下就是目前啦這個AI我這個AI輔助系統我在幾場公聽會上面學者跟專家都抱怨效果非常的不彰那我再回去問了一下那個基層的檢察官他們跟我的講法是這樣\n\n25\n00:10:07,857 --> 00:10:15,922\n你看下一頁喔簡單的案件檢察官不想用困難的案件現階段的AI的狀況根本用不了\n\n26\n00:10:17,302 --> 00:10:45,825\n你像酒駕好了如果我套用自己習慣的例稿我10分鐘可以寫完一篇書類結果我用AI生成出來的例稿我還要花時間去看到底對不對內容還亂七八糟這就是所有基層強官跟我說的那難得呢你給他出差案件金融案件他根本辦不了所以我們到底花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值在哪裡所以用AI去發展未來我覺得是對的但是現階段\n\n27\n00:10:48,200 --> 00:11:04,858\n現階段是不是實用,可能不理,你要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點,那我們回過頭去看最後一分鐘,回過頭去看上一頁我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告,而且我希望一個禮拜內提出啦,因為馬上就520了\n\n28\n00:11:07,401 --> 00:11:33,539\n我們希望的數據是要符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少我希望這個數據實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度因為我認為錢要花在刀口上這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算最後我希望法務部你們要注意一下資源的分配其實與其在那邊\n\n29\n00:11:36,081 --> 00:11:36,561\n新北市府法治局\n\n30\n00:11:51,086 --> 00:12:16,500\n開會全部都是用電子檔案警察能不能夠把他的移送報告什麼電子檔就能夠直接給檢察官給書記官讓他可以直接引用來簡化書記官的作業我想這個實務如果現場實務第一線的檢察官一聽他可能非常感動終於有人想到這件事了好不好再麻煩法務部能夠想一下還有提升遠端視訊設備啦就減緩這個警察解送人犯\n\n31\n00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:31,442\n還有檢察官在地監署等移送人犯這件事你也知道有時候屏東還要送到台北警察人力太辛苦了好那在這邊就麻煩能夠向法務部反映這件事然後一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n8547\t10429\t法務部黃署長、金管會司局長\n37933\t46058\t主要是這樣啦,就是因為這段時間啊,詐欺案件一直暴增嘛,那除了一些福國利民的法案之外,我們也要去思考\n46918\t47278\t主席主席主席\n68853\t89060\t應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好他才會減少後階段司法的負荷並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情的發生那我想說我上個月有去參加高檢署的那個打詐的研討會那研討會裡面其實\n91901\t115969\t這些問題大概都是老生常談了啦我們都知道現在詐欺集團他有一個最重要的東西他這個金流一定要有辦法他一定要拿到你的錢他才有這個詐騙的意義所以呢他非常的需要一些工具那這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶啦電子支付帳戶個人幣商或第三方支付的帳戶或者是那個電信的門號那\n118331\t134353\t但是這段時間我們從這個數據我現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來其實這幾年起訴人頭賬戶的起訴率大概只有三成其實這個原因有非常多這個不能說都怪司法\n134773\t153188\t因為當然第一個刑事訴訟制裁嚴格的證據主義再來就是其實有很多賬戶持有人他自己是被害人所以這個起訴率高跟低我不在這個上面去下一個價值的判斷但是呢我這邊要提的一個點就是當我們想到的是第一\n155302\t181980\t第一層的帳戶那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶我覺得這個是目前一個很大的一個漏洞第一層的帳戶就是被害人把錢匯過去的那個是第一層的帳戶但是呢被害人他錢匯過去之後這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層那這個第二層跟第三層帳戶我請問一下金管會你們有在管理這個有在監控這個部分嗎\n184008\t201511\t報告委員,這個部分因為是我們銀行級在主政的業務,所以我可能對這個比較不熟悉,可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。好,那這樣好了,我也不為難,我提一個東西。\n202597\t231136\t我們今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶也就是說被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶但是事實上幕後的首腦他要拿到這些錢他會透過這個從第一層再轉到第二層轉到第三層轉了好幾層之後才會進到那個背後的這個操控者他們的手中那這段時間呢我發現一個狀況就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管\n232943\t255329\t這個東西其實應該是金管會要去管的這個不是那個檢查機關或什麼他們已經沒有那麼多人力了所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決第二層賬戶跟第三層賬戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作讓被害人可以拿回錢因為我跟你說所有的被害人來找我\n255669\t277859\t他心中只想一件事情我錢拿不拿得回來至於被告被判刑與否他說我一點都不在意我只希望錢拿回來救我這個家庭結果我們把真正該做的事情我們放錯重點了你放在第一層賬戶那些很多還是被害人起訴率又很低結果真正錢傳過去錢放在第二層第三層\n278319\t308319\t﹗\n310341\t324454\t這2層3層這個帳戶因為有非常多2層3層的帳戶他已經在非常多案件中出現過了可是還是持續可以用這真的不應該而且你在判決裡面看到有很多帳戶都重複出現結果沒有人管好不好\n325975\t348414\t所以我如果你看不懂我跟你講你看一下剛剛那張圖他的金流很簡單被害人錢匯到一層一層再轉到二層二層再到三層最後轉到一些虛擬幣或幣商轉給因為他去那個中心化到最後轉給真正幕後的那個人你根本追不到結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面就一個一個不見了\n356081\t369892\t請看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回覆好不好那你再看喔我們看警示帳戶從110年到112年其實我們警示帳戶一直在增加等於是每天有75個新的警示帳戶\n372294\t387289\t這是很恐怖的啊 等於是你管理完全失能了 就是因為管理失能所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張這麼好騙錢 那導致現在社會上面民怨就是詐欺電信詐欺就是首要的\n388490\t413490\t議員議員議員議員議員\n413490\t413970\t好 那我們再往下看\n443268\t443969\t主席\n458708\t476498\t接下來我們請法務部我現在跟你們談的一個東西是AI的智慧輔助系統當初我們提這個AI的輔助系統其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作我們用AI來去取代那我們看一下這些年\n477358\t500146\t一百一十年的總預算這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了一百一十一年花了一千一百萬一千一百多那後面一一二年九百也就是說我們這些年其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置那我想請問你一下那現在效果呢\n502054\t523733\t是委員因為我是行政執行署署長那這方面應該是檢察你也是檢察官出身的對只能講說如果以我行政執行署的角度的話AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點那以行政執行署來講在對這種打詐的話這種前端的設備這是檢察官也感謝那個立法院的支持這預算跟行政院的撥用\n524093\t553842\t但我行政執行署可以用的是在詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候在偵查中檢察官要變賣不管是泰拉幣啦或者是其他的動產的話我們行政執行署在第一個時間就會予以變賣符合剛才委員所講的被害人所最關心的就是外籍到底能不能要回來所以我們行政執行署扮演這個角色所以我們在AI這邊的話行政執行署也有加強不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我那個帶回去那由我們的\n554042\t560745\t我只是抓到被告其實這個對國人沒有意義阿他的錢還是拿不回來所以他不會在乎這個點我覺得我們要打對這個點\n583374\t605635\t那我再跟您說明一下就是這幾個有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部那個說一下就是目前啦這個AI我這個AI輔助系統我在幾場公聽會上面學者跟專家都抱怨效果非常的不彰那我再回去問了一下那個基層的檢察官他們跟我的講法是這樣\n607857\t615922\t你看下一頁喔簡單的案件檢察官不想用困難的案件現階段的AI的狀況根本用不了\n617302\t645825\t你像酒駕好了如果我套用自己習慣的例稿我10分鐘可以寫完一篇書類結果我用AI生成出來的例稿我還要花時間去看到底對不對內容還亂七八糟這就是所有基層強官跟我說的那難得呢你給他出差案件金融案件他根本辦不了所以我們到底花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值在哪裡所以用AI去發展未來我覺得是對的但是現階段\n648200\t664858\t現階段是不是實用,可能不理,你要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點,那我們回過頭去看最後一分鐘,回過頭去看上一頁我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告,而且我希望一個禮拜內提出啦,因為馬上就520了\n667401\t693539\t我們希望的數據是要符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少我希望這個數據實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度因為我認為錢要花在刀口上這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算最後我希望法務部你們要注意一下資源的分配其實與其在那邊\n696081\t696561\t新北市府法治局\n711086\t736500\t開會全部都是用電子檔案警察能不能夠把他的移送報告什麼電子檔就能夠直接給檢察官給書記官讓他可以直接引用來簡化書記官的作業我想這個實務如果現場實務第一線的檢察官一聽他可能非常感動終於有人想到這件事了好不好再麻煩法務部能夠想一下還有提升遠端視訊設備啦就減緩這個警察解送人犯\n737000\t751442\t還有檢察官在地監署等移送人犯這件事你也知道有時候屏東還要送到台北警察人力太辛苦了好那在這邊就麻煩能夠向法務部反映這件事然後一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝\n","txt":"法務部黃署長、金管會司局長\n主要是這樣啦,就是因為這段時間啊,詐欺案件一直暴增嘛,那除了一些福國利民的法案之外,我們也要去思考\n主席主席主席\n應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好他才會減少後階段司法的負荷並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情的發生那我想說我上個月有去參加高檢署的那個打詐的研討會那研討會裡面其實\n這些問題大概都是老生常談了啦我們都知道現在詐欺集團他有一個最重要的東西他這個金流一定要有辦法他一定要拿到你的錢他才有這個詐騙的意義所以呢他非常的需要一些工具那這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶啦電子支付帳戶個人幣商或第三方支付的帳戶或者是那個電信的門號那\n但是這段時間我們從這個數據我現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來其實這幾年起訴人頭賬戶的起訴率大概只有三成其實這個原因有非常多這個不能說都怪司法\n因為當然第一個刑事訴訟制裁嚴格的證據主義再來就是其實有很多賬戶持有人他自己是被害人所以這個起訴率高跟低我不在這個上面去下一個價值的判斷但是呢我這邊要提的一個點就是當我們想到的是第一\n第一層的帳戶那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶我覺得這個是目前一個很大的一個漏洞第一層的帳戶就是被害人把錢匯過去的那個是第一層的帳戶但是呢被害人他錢匯過去之後這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層那這個第二層跟第三層帳戶我請問一下金管會你們有在管理這個有在監控這個部分嗎\n報告委員,這個部分因為是我們銀行級在主政的業務,所以我可能對這個比較不熟悉,可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。好,那這樣好了,我也不為難,我提一個東西。\n我們今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶也就是說被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶但是事實上幕後的首腦他要拿到這些錢他會透過這個從第一層再轉到第二層轉到第三層轉了好幾層之後才會進到那個背後的這個操控者他們的手中那這段時間呢我發現一個狀況就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管\n這個東西其實應該是金管會要去管的這個不是那個檢查機關或什麼他們已經沒有那麼多人力了所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決第二層賬戶跟第三層賬戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作讓被害人可以拿回錢因為我跟你說所有的被害人來找我\n他心中只想一件事情我錢拿不拿得回來至於被告被判刑與否他說我一點都不在意我只希望錢拿回來救我這個家庭結果我們把真正該做的事情我們放錯重點了你放在第一層賬戶那些很多還是被害人起訴率又很低結果真正錢傳過去錢放在第二層第三層\n﹗\n這2層3層這個帳戶因為有非常多2層3層的帳戶他已經在非常多案件中出現過了可是還是持續可以用這真的不應該而且你在判決裡面看到有很多帳戶都重複出現結果沒有人管好不好\n所以我如果你看不懂我跟你講你看一下剛剛那張圖他的金流很簡單被害人錢匯到一層一層再轉到二層二層再到三層最後轉到一些虛擬幣或幣商轉給因為他去那個中心化到最後轉給真正幕後的那個人你根本追不到結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面就一個一個不見了\n請看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回覆好不好那你再看喔我們看警示帳戶從110年到112年其實我們警示帳戶一直在增加等於是每天有75個新的警示帳戶\n這是很恐怖的啊 等於是你管理完全失能了 就是因為管理失能所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張這麼好騙錢 那導致現在社會上面民怨就是詐欺電信詐欺就是首要的\n議員議員議員議員議員\n好 那我們再往下看\n主席\n接下來我們請法務部我現在跟你們談的一個東西是AI的智慧輔助系統當初我們提這個AI的輔助系統其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作我們用AI來去取代那我們看一下這些年\n一百一十年的總預算這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了一百一十一年花了一千一百萬一千一百多那後面一一二年九百也就是說我們這些年其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置那我想請問你一下那現在效果呢\n是委員因為我是行政執行署署長那這方面應該是檢察你也是檢察官出身的對只能講說如果以我行政執行署的角度的話AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點那以行政執行署來講在對這種打詐的話這種前端的設備這是檢察官也感謝那個立法院的支持這預算跟行政院的撥用\n但我行政執行署可以用的是在詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候在偵查中檢察官要變賣不管是泰拉幣啦或者是其他的動產的話我們行政執行署在第一個時間就會予以變賣符合剛才委員所講的被害人所最關心的就是外籍到底能不能要回來所以我們行政執行署扮演這個角色所以我們在AI這邊的話行政執行署也有加強不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我那個帶回去那由我們的\n我只是抓到被告其實這個對國人沒有意義阿他的錢還是拿不回來所以他不會在乎這個點我覺得我們要打對這個點\n那我再跟您說明一下就是這幾個有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部那個說一下就是目前啦這個AI我這個AI輔助系統我在幾場公聽會上面學者跟專家都抱怨效果非常的不彰那我再回去問了一下那個基層的檢察官他們跟我的講法是這樣\n你看下一頁喔簡單的案件檢察官不想用困難的案件現階段的AI的狀況根本用不了\n你像酒駕好了如果我套用自己習慣的例稿我10分鐘可以寫完一篇書類結果我用AI生成出來的例稿我還要花時間去看到底對不對內容還亂七八糟這就是所有基層強官跟我說的那難得呢你給他出差案件金融案件他根本辦不了所以我們到底花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值在哪裡所以用AI去發展未來我覺得是對的但是現階段\n現階段是不是實用,可能不理,你要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點,那我們回過頭去看最後一分鐘,回過頭去看上一頁我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告,而且我希望一個禮拜內提出啦,因為馬上就520了\n我們希望的數據是要符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少我希望這個數據實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度因為我認為錢要花在刀口上這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算最後我希望法務部你們要注意一下資源的分配其實與其在那邊\n新北市府法治局\n開會全部都是用電子檔案警察能不能夠把他的移送報告什麼電子檔就能夠直接給檢察官給書記官讓他可以直接引用來簡化書記官的作業我想這個實務如果現場實務第一線的檢察官一聽他可能非常感動終於有人想到這件事了好不好再麻煩法務部能夠想一下還有提升遠端視訊設備啦就減緩這個警察解送人犯\n還有檢察官在地監署等移送人犯這件事你也知道有時候屏東還要送到台北警察人力太辛苦了好那在這邊就麻煩能夠向法務部反映這件事然後一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:08.547 --> 00:10.429\n法務部黃署長、金管會司局長\n\n00:37.933 --> 00:46.058\n主要是這樣啦,就是因為這段時間啊,詐欺案件一直暴增嘛,那除了一些福國利民的法案之外,我們也要去思考\n\n00:46.918 --> 00:47.278\n主席主席主席\n\n01:08.853 --> 01:29.060\n應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好他才會減少後階段司法的負荷並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情的發生那我想說我上個月有去參加高檢署的那個打詐的研討會那研討會裡面其實\n\n01:31.901 --> 01:55.969\n這些問題大概都是老生常談了啦我們都知道現在詐欺集團他有一個最重要的東西他這個金流一定要有辦法他一定要拿到你的錢他才有這個詐騙的意義所以呢他非常的需要一些工具那這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶啦電子支付帳戶個人幣商或第三方支付的帳戶或者是那個電信的門號那\n\n01:58.331 --> 02:14.353\n但是這段時間我們從這個數據我現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來其實這幾年起訴人頭賬戶的起訴率大概只有三成其實這個原因有非常多這個不能說都怪司法\n\n02:14.773 --> 02:33.188\n因為當然第一個刑事訴訟制裁嚴格的證據主義再來就是其實有很多賬戶持有人他自己是被害人所以這個起訴率高跟低我不在這個上面去下一個價值的判斷但是呢我這邊要提的一個點就是當我們想到的是第一\n\n02:35.302 --> 03:01.980\n第一層的帳戶那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶我覺得這個是目前一個很大的一個漏洞第一層的帳戶就是被害人把錢匯過去的那個是第一層的帳戶但是呢被害人他錢匯過去之後這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層那這個第二層跟第三層帳戶我請問一下金管會你們有在管理這個有在監控這個部分嗎\n\n03:04.008 --> 03:21.511\n報告委員,這個部分因為是我們銀行級在主政的業務,所以我可能對這個比較不熟悉,可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。好,那這樣好了,我也不為難,我提一個東西。\n\n03:22.597 --> 03:51.136\n我們今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶也就是說被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶但是事實上幕後的首腦他要拿到這些錢他會透過這個從第一層再轉到第二層轉到第三層轉了好幾層之後才會進到那個背後的這個操控者他們的手中那這段時間呢我發現一個狀況就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管\n\n03:52.943 --> 04:15.329\n這個東西其實應該是金管會要去管的這個不是那個檢查機關或什麼他們已經沒有那麼多人力了所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決第二層賬戶跟第三層賬戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作讓被害人可以拿回錢因為我跟你說所有的被害人來找我\n\n04:15.669 --> 04:37.859\n他心中只想一件事情我錢拿不拿得回來至於被告被判刑與否他說我一點都不在意我只希望錢拿回來救我這個家庭結果我們把真正該做的事情我們放錯重點了你放在第一層賬戶那些很多還是被害人起訴率又很低結果真正錢傳過去錢放在第二層第三層\n\n05:10.341 --> 05:24.454\n這2層3層這個帳戶因為有非常多2層3層的帳戶他已經在非常多案件中出現過了可是還是持續可以用這真的不應該而且你在判決裡面看到有很多帳戶都重複出現結果沒有人管好不好\n\n05:25.975 --> 05:48.414\n所以我如果你看不懂我跟你講你看一下剛剛那張圖他的金流很簡單被害人錢匯到一層一層再轉到二層二層再到三層最後轉到一些虛擬幣或幣商轉給因為他去那個中心化到最後轉給真正幕後的那個人你根本追不到結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面就一個一個不見了\n\n05:56.081 --> 06:09.892\n請看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回覆好不好那你再看喔我們看警示帳戶從110年到112年其實我們警示帳戶一直在增加等於是每天有75個新的警示帳戶\n\n06:12.294 --> 06:27.289\n這是很恐怖的啊等於是你管理完全失能了就是因為管理失能所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張這麼好騙錢那導致現在社會上面民怨就是詐欺電信詐欺就是首要的\n\n06:53.490 --> 06:53.970\n好那我們再往下看\n\n07:23.268 --> 07:23.969\n主席\n\n07:38.708 --> 07:56.498\n接下來我們請法務部我現在跟你們談的一個東西是AI的智慧輔助系統當初我們提這個AI的輔助系統其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作我們用AI來去取代那我們看一下這些年\n\n07:57.358 --> 08:20.146\n一百一十年的總預算這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了一百一十一年花了一千一百萬一千一百多那後面一一二年九百也就是說我們這些年其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置那我想請問你一下那現在效果呢\n\n08:22.054 --> 08:43.733\n是委員因為我是行政執行署署長那這方面應該是檢察你也是檢察官出身的對只能講說如果以我行政執行署的角度的話AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點那以行政執行署來講在對這種打詐的話這種前端的設備這是檢察官也感謝那個立法院的支持這預算跟行政院的撥用\n\n08:44.093 --> 09:13.842\n但我行政執行署可以用的是在詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候在偵查中檢察官要變賣不管是泰拉幣啦或者是其他的動產的話我們行政執行署在第一個時間就會予以變賣符合剛才委員所講的被害人所最關心的就是外籍到底能不能要回來所以我們行政執行署扮演這個角色所以我們在AI這邊的話行政執行署也有加強不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我那個帶回去那由我們的\n\n09:14.042 --> 09:20.745\n我只是抓到被告其實這個對國人沒有意義阿他的錢還是拿不回來所以他不會在乎這個點我覺得我們要打對這個點\n\n09:43.374 --> 10:05.635\n那我再跟您說明一下就是這幾個有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部那個說一下就是目前啦這個AI我這個AI輔助系統我在幾場公聽會上面學者跟專家都抱怨效果非常的不彰那我再回去問了一下那個基層的檢察官他們跟我的講法是這樣\n\n10:07.857 --> 10:15.922\n你看下一頁喔簡單的案件檢察官不想用困難的案件現階段的AI的狀況根本用不了\n\n10:17.302 --> 10:45.825\n你像酒駕好了如果我套用自己習慣的例稿我10分鐘可以寫完一篇書類結果我用AI生成出來的例稿我還要花時間去看到底對不對內容還亂七八糟這就是所有基層強官跟我說的那難得呢你給他出差案件金融案件他根本辦不了所以我們到底花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值在哪裡所以用AI去發展未來我覺得是對的但是現階段\n\n10:48.200 --> 11:04.858\n現階段是不是實用,可能不理,你要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點,那我們回過頭去看最後一分鐘,回過頭去看上一頁我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告,而且我希望一個禮拜內提出啦,因為馬上就520了\n\n11:07.401 --> 11:33.539\n我們希望的數據是要符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少我希望這個數據實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度因為我認為錢要花在刀口上這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算最後我希望法務部你們要注意一下資源的分配其實與其在那邊\n\n11:36.081 --> 11:36.561\n新北市府法治局\n\n11:51.086 --> 12:16.500\n開會全部都是用電子檔案警察能不能夠把他的移送報告什麼電子檔就能夠直接給檢察官給書記官讓他可以直接引用來簡化書記官的作業我想這個實務如果現場實務第一線的檢察官一聽他可能非常感動終於有人想到這件事了好不好再麻煩法務部能夠想一下還有提升遠端視訊設備啦就減緩這個警察解送人犯\n\n12:17.000 --> 12:31.442\n還有檢察官在地監署等移送人犯這件事你也知道有時候屏東還要送到台北警察人力太辛苦了好那在這邊就麻煩能夠向法務部反映這件事然後一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":8.547,"end":10.429,"text":"法務部黃署長、金管會司局長"},{"start":37.933,"end":46.058,"text":"主要是這樣啦,就是因為這段時間啊,詐欺案件一直暴增嘛,那除了一些福國利民的法案之外,我們也要去思考"},{"start":46.918,"end":47.278,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":68.853,"end":89.06,"text":"應該是第一個前階段行政單位要把該管控的東西管控好他才會減少後階段司法的負荷並沒有人會把司法放在最前端去防堵這些事情的發生那我想說我上個月有去參加高檢署的那個打詐的研討會那研討會裡面其實"},{"start":91.901,"end":115.969,"text":"這些問題大概都是老生常談了啦我們都知道現在詐欺集團他有一個最重要的東西他這個金流一定要有辦法他一定要拿到你的錢他才有這個詐騙的意義所以呢他非常的需要一些工具那這些工具不外乎就是人頭帳戶啦電子支付帳戶個人幣商或第三方支付的帳戶或者是那個電信的門號那"},{"start":118.331,"end":134.353,"text":"但是這段時間我們從這個數據我現在PowerPoint上面的數據看得出來其實這幾年起訴人頭賬戶的起訴率大概只有三成其實這個原因有非常多這個不能說都怪司法"},{"start":134.773,"end":153.188,"text":"因為當然第一個刑事訴訟制裁嚴格的證據主義再來就是其實有很多賬戶持有人他自己是被害人所以這個起訴率高跟低我不在這個上面去下一個價值的判斷但是呢我這邊要提的一個點就是當我們想到的是第一"},{"start":155.302,"end":181.98,"text":"第一層的帳戶那我們有沒有想到第二層跟第三層的帳戶我覺得這個是目前一個很大的一個漏洞第一層的帳戶就是被害人把錢匯過去的那個是第一層的帳戶但是呢被害人他錢匯過去之後這個帳戶會在很快的時間內馬上轉到第二層或第三層那這個第二層跟第三層帳戶我請問一下金管會你們有在管理這個有在監控這個部分嗎"},{"start":184.008,"end":201.511,"text":"報告委員,這個部分因為是我們銀行級在主政的業務,所以我可能對這個比較不熟悉,可能要再把委員的意見轉給他們。好,那這樣好了,我也不為難,我提一個東西。"},{"start":202.597,"end":231.136,"text":"我們今天在司法上面大家處理的都是第一層的帳戶也就是說被害人把錢匯進去的那個帳戶但是事實上幕後的首腦他要拿到這些錢他會透過這個從第一層再轉到第二層轉到第三層轉了好幾層之後才會進到那個背後的這個操控者他們的手中那這段時間呢我發現一個狀況就是第二層跟第三層帳戶沒有人去管"},{"start":232.943,"end":255.329,"text":"這個東西其實應該是金管會要去管的這個不是那個檢查機關或什麼他們已經沒有那麼多人力了所以你們是不是應該要回過頭去跟檢方要資料或跟法院去看判決第二層賬戶跟第三層賬戶你們是不是要及時比如說做圈存的動作讓被害人可以拿回錢因為我跟你說所有的被害人來找我"},{"start":255.669,"end":277.859,"text":"他心中只想一件事情我錢拿不拿得回來至於被告被判刑與否他說我一點都不在意我只希望錢拿回來救我這個家庭結果我們把真正該做的事情我們放錯重點了你放在第一層賬戶那些很多還是被害人起訴率又很低結果真正錢傳過去錢放在第二層第三層"},{"start":278.319,"end":308.319,"text":"﹗"},{"start":310.341,"end":324.454,"text":"這2層3層這個帳戶因為有非常多2層3層的帳戶他已經在非常多案件中出現過了可是還是持續可以用這真的不應該而且你在判決裡面看到有很多帳戶都重複出現結果沒有人管好不好"},{"start":325.975,"end":348.414,"text":"所以我如果你看不懂我跟你講你看一下剛剛那張圖他的金流很簡單被害人錢匯到一層一層再轉到二層二層再到三層最後轉到一些虛擬幣或幣商轉給因為他去那個中心化到最後轉給真正幕後的那個人你根本追不到結果我們人民的錢就在這裡面就一個一個不見了"},{"start":356.081,"end":369.892,"text":"請看一個禮拜內能不能先給我一個初步的回覆好不好那你再看喔我們看警示帳戶從110年到112年其實我們警示帳戶一直在增加等於是每天有75個新的警示帳戶"},{"start":372.294,"end":387.289,"text":"這是很恐怖的啊 等於是你管理完全失能了 就是因為管理失能所以今天的犯罪集團才會這麼囂張這麼好騙錢 那導致現在社會上面民怨就是詐欺電信詐欺就是首要的"},{"start":388.49,"end":413.49,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":413.49,"end":413.97,"text":"好 那我們再往下看"},{"start":443.268,"end":443.969,"text":"主席"},{"start":458.708,"end":476.498,"text":"接下來我們請法務部我現在跟你們談的一個東西是AI的智慧輔助系統當初我們提這個AI的輔助系統其實我們是希望把一些重複性跟機械性比較高的工作我們用AI來去取代那我們看一下這些年"},{"start":477.358,"end":500.146,"text":"一百一十年的總預算這預算案裡面我們可以看到已經花了不少錢了一百一十一年花了一千一百萬一千一百多那後面一一二年九百也就是說我們這些年其實花費非常多的錢在AI系統的建置那我想請問你一下那現在效果呢"},{"start":502.054,"end":523.733,"text":"是委員因為我是行政執行署署長那這方面應該是檢察你也是檢察官出身的對只能講說如果以我行政執行署的角度的話AI的確是我們法務部的一個重點那以行政執行署來講在對這種打詐的話這種前端的設備這是檢察官也感謝那個立法院的支持這預算跟行政院的撥用"},{"start":524.093,"end":553.842,"text":"但我行政執行署可以用的是在詐騙集團只要被查扣的時候在偵查中檢察官要變賣不管是泰拉幣啦或者是其他的動產的話我們行政執行署在第一個時間就會予以變賣符合剛才委員所講的被害人所最關心的就是外籍到底能不能要回來所以我們行政執行署扮演這個角色所以我們在AI這邊的話行政執行署也有加強不過剛才委員提到的這部分是不是容我那個帶回去那由我們的"},{"start":554.042,"end":560.745,"text":"我只是抓到被告其實這個對國人沒有意義阿他的錢還是拿不回來所以他不會在乎這個點我覺得我們要打對這個點"},{"start":583.374,"end":605.635,"text":"那我再跟您說明一下就是這幾個有幾個東西再麻煩您回去跟法務部那個說一下就是目前啦這個AI我這個AI輔助系統我在幾場公聽會上面學者跟專家都抱怨效果非常的不彰那我再回去問了一下那個基層的檢察官他們跟我的講法是這樣"},{"start":607.857,"end":615.922,"text":"你看下一頁喔簡單的案件檢察官不想用困難的案件現階段的AI的狀況根本用不了"},{"start":617.302,"end":645.825,"text":"你像酒駕好了如果我套用自己習慣的例稿我10分鐘可以寫完一篇書類結果我用AI生成出來的例稿我還要花時間去看到底對不對內容還亂七八糟這就是所有基層強官跟我說的那難得呢你給他出差案件金融案件他根本辦不了所以我們到底花那麼多錢建置這個東西的價值在哪裡所以用AI去發展未來我覺得是對的但是現階段"},{"start":648.2,"end":664.858,"text":"現階段是不是實用,可能不理,你要麻煩你請部裡面搞清楚這個點,那我們回過頭去看最後一分鐘,回過頭去看上一頁我希望部裡面能夠提出一個報告,而且我希望一個禮拜內提出啦,因為馬上就520了"},{"start":667.401,"end":693.539,"text":"我們希望的數據是要符合預設案件類型的案件數到底有多少我希望這個數據實際採用的案件數有多少還有成效的滿意度因為我認為錢要花在刀口上這些都是人民繳的稅金所做出來的預算最後我希望法務部你們要注意一下資源的分配其實與其在那邊"},{"start":696.081,"end":696.561,"text":"新北市府法治局"},{"start":711.086,"end":736.5,"text":"開會全部都是用電子檔案警察能不能夠把他的移送報告什麼電子檔就能夠直接給檢察官給書記官讓他可以直接引用來簡化書記官的作業我想這個實務如果現場實務第一線的檢察官一聽他可能非常感動終於有人想到這件事了好不好再麻煩法務部能夠想一下還有提升遠端視訊設備啦就減緩這個警察解送人犯"},{"start":737,"end":751.442,"text":"還有檢察官在地監署等移送人犯這件事你也知道有時候屏東還要送到台北警察人力太辛苦了好那在這邊就麻煩能夠向法務部反映這件事然後一個禮拜給我報告好謝謝"}]}}}}