{"id":152379,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152379","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792df2771650f5657ccfb4f9ff50c8f2c18736499d1b681a2ac7a3e401defcf2fd2e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:43:49 - 11:56:01","影片長度":"00:12:12","會議時間":"2024-05-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。）","date":"2024-05-09","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":21,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-21"},"duration":732,"end_time":"2024-05-09T11:56:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-09T11:43:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":747,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時43分）主席，有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。"],["主席：好，請四位列席官員上臺。"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：首先，我這邊先感謝鍾佳濱召委安排今天這一場專報，針對強制執行保單解約的問題，邀請各個主管單位來報告，因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題，事實上我們也接到非常多的陳情案件，真的已經造成很廣大的民怨，其實不只造成民怨啦！其實這些案件已經造成司法單位很大的負擔，我們之前還一直討論有關於法官的案件量過多，所以造成大家負荷過重，甚至有法官不幸墜樓。像這種情形，其實都跟制度設計有問題相關。非常感謝鍾佳濱委員今天安排這場專報，也因此，當鍾委員找我為臨時提案連署時，我馬上就同意。不過臨時提案也只是權宜之計，就是在法制、制度與政策修改之前，針對現在的亂象畫一條止血線而已。長遠來講，我覺得終究還是需要在制度面上拿出方法。我有幾個問題想要就教，也讓大家看看問題的嚴重度。","壽險保單是不是可以視為債務人的財產，進而變成法院強制執行標的？紛爭的緣起主要是在於110年度12月9日，最高法院民事大法庭108年臺抗大字第897號裁定提到，執行法院在必要時可以核發執行命令，終止債務人為要保人的人壽保險契約，命第三人保險公司償付解約金。在897號裁定出來之後，債權人向執行法院聲請強制執行時，聲請查詢債務人對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加，依法務部所給的數字來看，112年1月1日到113年3月總共查詢多少件？23萬件，對不對？其實這就是多出來的一個很大負擔！不只查詢，核發扣押命令的也有3萬4,680件，核發執行命令，終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約有8,712件。現在全國21家保險公司中，有兩家的總公司在士林地方法院的轄區，其他19家都在臺灣臺北地方法院轄區內，所以案件量確實大增。我想請問司法院秘書長，對於這件事，目前法院狀況如何？已經變成很沉重的負擔吧？請說。"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以臺北地院執行處在4月份趕快新增7個執行股，包括書記官7人，執達員7人，司法事務官5人。另外增加委外人力17人，也趕快擴增一些辦公室，增設事務機，這些我們都必須儘速應急，變成重災區了。"],["羅委員智強：我剛好可以跟秘書長講一件事，這跟我們之前關切的法官過勞，還有書記官、檢察官過勞一樣，都是相類似的問題。我想秘書長也知道我非常支持法官員額增加，因為案件量實在大增，所以法官員額應該要增加。但其實另外一個法官過勞的原因，並非純粹人手不足的問題，而是近來案件數量大增，比方這件事情就憑空多出非常大的案件源！如果能夠做一些簡化措施或制度上的調整，就可以有效減少很多案件。因此，不是純粹像剛剛秘書長講的人力增加就足以應對，更重要的是檢視這些案件源的增加是怎麼來的？有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理減少案件來源？比方我之前質詢過檢察官、檢警分工的問題，檢警分工如果做得好，一些重複的司法程序被節省下來時，就可以實質上減輕司法人員的負擔。不知道秘書長認不認同這點？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然認同。在效率、效能方面如何提升也很重要。"],["羅委員智強：另外，我就要回到……"],["周廳長玫芳：委員，我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法。剛剛委員問到程序簡化的問題，目前查詢的案件有23萬件，正如委員所說。如果這個查詢事件在事發之初，也就是債權人不向法院聲請，而是直接向壽險公會申請，那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟壽險公會之間流動，也可以減省很多程序。主要是因為金管會，我不知道這是金管會認為……"],["羅委員智強：請金管會回答一下，為什麼程序會這樣設計？"],["周廳長玫芳：債權人不能直接向壽險公會查詢這些事件，不能查詢要保人的保險資料，以至於債權人都跑到法院來聲請查詢。如果這部分可以直接像稅捐稽徵法第三十三條一樣，讓這些拿有執行名義的債權人直接向稅捐機關，而在這裡就是直接向壽險公會，或向金管會查詢資料，如此一來，中間這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來。"],["羅委員智強：我想聽一下金管會的意見，可以說明一下嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，我們現在建立的保險通報系統，原來是經過要保人同意，保險公司才會把投保資訊建置在壽險公會。當初請要保人同意的目的，是要做核保使用，非其他目的外業務。如果要透過這樣的方式來查詢的話，那麼第一個，債權人是無由使用這個系統，所以才會請法院依照法令規定來要求查詢。"],["羅委員智強：剛剛主席也在笑，因為兩邊聽起來都有道理，可是現在因此而增加的東西，就需要雙方協調出一個機制，這也是為什麼我剛剛會提到鍾佳濱召委提臨時提案的原因所在。雖然只是暫時、稍微緩和問題，不過就這件事來說，我覺得兩邊真的是要協調出作法來。一方面當然是對於法律程序更嚴謹的保障，但另一方面也涉及到今天就是多了23萬件的案件量！其實不只是這東西，不過今天還沒有時間討論到。對於一般民眾而言，特別是去保險的民眾，我們接到真的是……我剛剛為什麼講要限定金額？有些要保金額非常低微，可是你們現在要他自己去做這些事情，這對他們的騷擾與干擾其實是很大的，也破壞了保險制度設計的重點，這是我剛剛講的第一個點。","現在回到897號裁定的部分，執行法院認為的必要性在哪裡？什麼叫必要性？它說必要時，得核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約，請問必要性的原則是什麼？"],["周廳長玫芳：法院在審查時會回到強制執行法第一條跟第一百二十二條去審查，看似好像沒有一個具體標準，但是在實際的具體個案上，對於保險契約要不要終止，一般司法事務官就會去審查這個保險契約的性質是什麼、有沒有附約、債務人年紀多大、有沒有工作能力、可不可能再獲得營業收入還有他本身及其共同生活的家屬的基本需求是什麼？這些都會去做衡量，這就是……"],["羅委員智強：所以可以看到這整個裁量有多複雜！"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["羅委員智強：光是「必要性」三個字你就已經講那麼久了。今天我回到民眾身上來看，我曾受理過一些案件，比方其中一個個案，有一個民眾在二、三十年前為哥哥開的公司做擔保人，他哥哥因為經商失敗加上過世，所以債務就落到陳情人身上。最後即便他還了一些，但因為債務人的負擔過大，最後當事人被強制執行的保險保單，除了自己的以外，他在意的不是自己的，而是小孩子的保險！為未成年子女所買的保險也一樣被強制執行！像這種情形你覺得合必要性嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：其實在必要性的審酌上，我們還有其他配套措施，比如說在整個強制執行……"],["羅委員智強：所以我就問這件事情你覺得有合必要性嗎？你覺得呢？"],["周廳長玫芳：要看他全部的責任來……"],["羅委員智強：基本上我知道所謂的897號裁定，主要是為了避免債務人脫產，對不對？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是講到債務人脫產……像我剛剛講的是十萬元以下的金額或二十萬的金額，說真的，要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦，不是嗎？還有像這種所謂二、三十年前的保單，他當時就那麼遠見要脫產嗎？不會的。"],["周廳長玫芳：所以在衡量之下，通常會認為不需要解約，我想在我們實務上……"],["羅委員智強：可是我跟你講，你實際上就是做到往解約的方向走，他就被強制執行啦，所以因此，今天你一個法院的裁定，你今天說得不清不楚，執行下去就是幾十萬人受害耶！都被捲到這裡面去，真的，我真的拜託，今天不只是從法官減量啦，你今天從所謂民眾受到這麼多的困擾，因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能，對不對？而且有些保單都是二、三十年前做的，金額也不大，結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件，跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有悖的啦，因為實際上他不是為了脫產的目的，這種部分的話，真的不能再推來推去，拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝秘書長等，也謝謝羅委員，事實上也跟羅委員說明一下，今天我們有邀請到中華民國人壽保險商業同業公會的金副秘書長，他非常嫻熟，私下或許委員可以跟他請教為什麼執行法院依聲請人聲請，向他們查詢債務人的投保資料有那麼多件。謝謝，謝謝羅委員。","接下來有請王委員鴻薇，王委員鴻薇，王委員鴻薇不在。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。委員黃珊珊、傅崐萁、翁曉玲所提書面質詢均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-21","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","陳俊宇","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","黃國昌","吳思瑤","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林楚茵","羅智強","李坤城","吳宗憲","黃珊珊","傅崐萁","翁曉玲"],"page_start":65,"meetingDate":["2024-05-09"],"gazette_id":"1134301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第21次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請司法院、法務部及金融監督管理委員會率所屬相關單位列席就「強制執行保單解約償債\n未符比例原則紛爭頻傳亂象如何解」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理113年度中央政府總預\n算關於司法院及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案","agenda_id":"1134301_00002"}},"transcript":{"id":"152379","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152379","tool":"pyannote","id":"152379-pyannote"},"job_id":"tTHiXyOa5XhiY5AS","queued_at":"2024-05-31 09:38:12","status":"done","log":[{"time":"2024-05-31 09:39:36","msg":"downloading https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152379"},{"time":"2024-05-31 09:39:37","msg":"downloading https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d554e30850cf792df2771650f5657ccfb4f9ff50c8f2c1879a45d36a9744e1e81c6e12e9f11d954d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8"},{"time":"2024-05-31 09:39:57","msg":"converting mp4 to 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\"end\": 333.944, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 333.944, \"end\": 334.204, \"score\": 0.92}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"目\", \"start\": 334.204, \"end\": 334.445, \"score\": 0.915}, {\"word\": \"前\", \"start\": 334.445, \"end\": 334.685, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 334.685, \"end\": 334.825, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 334.825, \"end\": 334.905, \"score\": 0.738}, {\"word\": \"案\", \"start\": 334.905, \"end\": 335.085, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 335.085, \"end\": 335.265, \"score\": 0.888}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 335.265, \"end\": 335.405, \"score\": 0.857}, {\"word\": \"2\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"萬\"}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 335.405, \"end\": 335.485, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"正\", \"start\": 335.485, \"end\": 335.585, \"score\": 0.8}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 335.585, \"end\": 335.705, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 335.705, \"end\": 335.745, \"score\": 0.497}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"所\", \"start\": 335.745, \"end\": 335.765, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}]}, {\"start\": 353.852, \"end\": 369.598, \"text\": \"那如果這個查詢事件在事發之初也就是債權人不向法院申請直接向受選工會去申請那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟受選工會之間流動\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 353.852, \"end\": 354.012, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 354.012, \"end\": 354.212, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 354.212, \"end\": 354.632, \"score\": 0.905}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 354.632, \"end\": 355.092, \"score\": 0.956}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 355.092, \"end\": 355.313, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"件\", \"start\": 355.313, \"end\": 355.513, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 355.513, \"end\": 355.793, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"事\", \"start\": 355.793, \"end\": 356.273, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"發\"}, {\"word\": 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0.999}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 360.594, \"end\": 361.335, \"score\": 0.987}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 361.335, \"end\": 361.735, \"score\": 0.919}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 361.735, \"end\": 362.175, \"score\": 0.881}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 362.175, \"end\": 362.415, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"申\", \"start\": 362.415, \"end\": 363.295, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"請\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 363.295, \"end\": 363.976, \"score\": 0.941}, {\"word\": \"麼\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 363.976, \"end\": 364.496, \"score\": 0.961}, {\"word\": \"東\"}, {\"word\": \"西\", \"start\": 364.496, \"end\": 364.676, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 364.676, \"end\": 364.876, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"不\", \"start\": 364.876, \"end\": 366.096, \"score\": 0.984}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 366.096, \"end\": 367.037, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 367.037, \"end\": 367.237, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"院\", \"start\": 367.237, \"end\": 367.537, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 367.537, \"end\": 367.797, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 367.797, \"end\": 368.157, \"score\": 0.918}, {\"word\": \"選\"}, {\"word\": \"工\", \"start\": 368.157, \"end\": 368.497, \"score\": 0.886}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"之\", \"start\": 368.497, \"end\": 369.578, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"流\", \"start\": 369.578, \"end\": 369.598, \"score\": 0.754}, {\"word\": \"動\"}]}, {\"start\": 370.538, \"end\": 371.559, \"text\": \"那我想說如果這個部分可以直接像稅捐激增法33條一樣\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 370.538, \"end\": 370.558, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 370.558, \"end\": 370.778, \"score\": 0.909}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 370.778, \"end\": 370.798, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"如\", \"start\": 370.798, \"end\": 370.878, \"score\": 0.75}, {\"word\": \"果\", \"start\": 370.878, \"end\": 370.898, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"部\", \"start\": 370.898, \"end\": 370.918, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"分\", \"start\": 370.918, \"end\": 370.978, \"score\": 0.66}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 370.978, \"end\": 371.078, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 371.078, \"end\": 371.118, \"score\": 0.997}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 371.118, \"end\": 371.138, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 371.138, \"end\": 371.158, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"像\", \"start\": 371.158, \"end\": 371.178, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"捐\", \"start\": 371.178, \"end\": 371.298, \"score\": 0.833}, {\"word\": \"激\", \"start\": 371.298, \"end\": 371.318, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"增\", \"start\": 371.318, \"end\": 371.378, \"score\": 0.666}, {\"word\": \"法\", \"start\": 371.378, \"end\": 371.538, \"score\": 0.872}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"3\"}, {\"word\": \"條\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 371.538, \"end\": 371.559, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"樣\"}]}, {\"start\": 399.593, \"end\": 414.726, \"text\": \"讓這些哪有執行民意的債權人直接向稅捐機關那在這裡就是直接向受險公會或者是向金管會去查詢資料那中間的這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"讓\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 399.593, \"end\": 399.853, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"哪\", \"start\": 399.853, \"end\": 400.113, \"score\": 0.983}, {\"word\": \"有\", \"start\": 400.113, \"end\": 400.474, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"執\"}, {\"word\": \"行\", \"start\": 400.474, \"end\": 400.654, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"民\", \"start\": 400.654, \"end\": 400.854, \"score\": 0.927}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 400.854, \"end\": 401.014, \"score\": 0.867}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 401.014, \"end\": 401.535, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"債\"}, {\"word\": \"權\"}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 401.535, \"end\": 401.835, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 401.835, \"end\": 402.135, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 402.135, \"end\": 402.415, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 402.415, \"end\": 402.836, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"稅\"}, {\"word\": \"捐\", \"start\": 402.836, \"end\": 403.717, \"score\": 0.938}, {\"word\": \"機\"}, {\"word\": \"關\"}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 403.717, \"end\": 403.897, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 403.897, \"end\": 404.477, \"score\": 0.911}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"裡\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 404.477, \"end\": 404.637, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 404.637, \"end\": 404.817, \"score\": 0.994}, {\"word\": \"直\", \"start\": 404.817, \"end\": 405.018, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"接\", \"start\": 405.018, \"end\": 405.258, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 405.258, \"end\": 405.578, \"score\": 0.977}, {\"word\": \"受\", \"start\": 405.578, \"end\": 405.959, \"score\": 0.926}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"公\", \"start\": 405.959, \"end\": 406.479, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"或\", \"start\": 406.479, \"end\": 406.659, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"者\", \"start\": 406.659, \"end\": 406.819, \"score\": 0.954}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 406.819, \"end\": 406.979, \"score\": 0.996}, {\"word\": \"向\", \"start\": 406.979, \"end\": 407.22, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 407.22, \"end\": 407.42, \"score\": 0.921}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 407.42, \"end\": 407.82, \"score\": 0.95}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"去\", \"start\": 407.82, \"end\": 408.04, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"查\", \"start\": 408.04, \"end\": 408.701, \"score\": 0.939}, {\"word\": \"詢\"}, {\"word\": \"資\"}, {\"word\": \"料\", \"start\": 408.701, \"end\": 409.201, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 409.201, \"end\": 409.402, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"中\", \"start\": 409.402, \"end\": 409.982, \"score\": 0.947}, {\"word\": \"間\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 409.982, \"end\": 410.342, \"score\": 0.944}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"些\", \"start\": 410.342, \"end\": 410.643, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"浪\", \"start\": 410.643, \"end\": 411.263, \"score\": 0.967}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 411.263, \"end\": 411.884, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"程\", \"start\": 411.884, \"end\": 412.244, \"score\": 0.985}, {\"word\": \"序\", \"start\": 412.244, \"end\": 412.584, \"score\": 0.978}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 412.584, \"end\": 413.926, \"score\": 0.97}, {\"word\": \"勞\"}, {\"word\": \"費\"}, {\"word\": \"就\", \"start\": 413.926, \"end\": 414.086, \"score\": 0.999}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 414.086, \"end\": 414.206, \"score\": 1.0}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 414.206, \"end\": 414.506, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"減\"}, {\"word\": \"省\", \"start\": 414.506, \"end\": 414.706, \"score\": 0.9}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 414.706, \"end\": 414.726, \"score\": 0.924}, {\"word\": \"來\"}]}, {\"start\": 415.592, \"end\": 440.299, \"text\": \"那我想聽聽一下金管會的意見可以說明一下跟委員報告因為我們現在建立的保險通報系統原來是經過這個藥保人同意那保險公司才把他的投保的這個資訊建置在這個壽檢工會那他的目的當初我們請這個藥保人同意的目的是要做核保使用\", \"words\": [{\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 415.592, \"end\": 415.732, \"score\": 0.746}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 415.732, \"end\": 415.832, \"score\": 0.619}, {\"word\": \"想\", \"start\": 415.832, \"end\": 416.252, \"score\": 0.77}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"聽\"}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 416.252, \"end\": 416.332, \"score\": 0.883}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 416.332, \"end\": 416.512, \"score\": 0.916}, {\"word\": \"金\", \"start\": 416.512, \"end\": 416.672, \"score\": 0.847}, {\"word\": \"管\", \"start\": 416.672, \"end\": 417.673, \"score\": 0.901}, {\"word\": \"會\"}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 417.673, \"end\": 417.793, \"score\": 0.492}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 417.793, \"end\": 418.253, \"score\": 0.845}, {\"word\": \"見\"}, {\"word\": \"可\", \"start\": 418.253, \"end\": 418.793, \"score\": 0.917}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 418.793, \"end\": 418.953, \"score\": 0.815}, {\"word\": \"說\"}, {\"word\": \"明\", \"start\": 418.953, \"end\": 419.033, \"score\": 0.786}, {\"word\": \"一\", \"start\": 419.033, \"end\": 419.093, \"score\": 0.407}, {\"word\": \"下\", \"start\": 419.093, \"end\": 419.353, \"score\": 0.942}, {\"word\": \"跟\", \"start\": 419.353, \"end\": 419.753, \"score\": 0.88}, {\"word\": \"委\", \"start\": 419.753, \"end\": 419.973, \"score\": 0.896}, {\"word\": \"員\"}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"告\", \"start\": 419.973, \"end\": 420.433, \"score\": 0.945}, {\"word\": \"因\", \"start\": 420.433, \"end\": 421.194, \"score\": 0.933}, {\"word\": \"為\"}, {\"word\": \"我\", \"start\": 421.194, \"end\": 421.654, \"score\": 0.807}, {\"word\": \"們\"}, {\"word\": \"現\"}, {\"word\": \"在\", \"start\": 421.654, \"end\": 421.854, \"score\": 0.998}, {\"word\": \"建\", \"start\": 421.854, \"end\": 422.054, \"score\": 0.955}, {\"word\": \"立\", \"start\": 422.054, \"end\": 422.214, \"score\": 0.931}, {\"word\": \"的\", \"start\": 422.214, \"end\": 422.374, \"score\": 0.981}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 422.374, \"end\": 422.754, \"score\": 0.874}, {\"word\": \"險\"}, {\"word\": \"通\", \"start\": 422.754, \"end\": 423.154, \"score\": 0.848}, {\"word\": \"報\"}, {\"word\": \"系\", \"start\": 423.154, \"end\": 423.614, \"score\": 0.899}, {\"word\": \"統\"}, {\"word\": \"原\", \"start\": 423.614, \"end\": 424.134, \"score\": 0.914}, {\"word\": \"來\"}, {\"word\": \"是\", \"start\": 424.134, \"end\": 426.755, \"score\": 0.923}, {\"word\": \"經\"}, {\"word\": \"過\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"藥\"}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 426.755, \"end\": 426.915, \"score\": 0.894}, {\"word\": \"人\", \"start\": 426.915, \"end\": 427.215, \"score\": 0.884}, {\"word\": \"同\", \"start\": 427.215, \"end\": 427.555, \"score\": 0.83}, {\"word\": \"意\", \"start\": 427.555, \"end\": 428.396, \"score\": 0.876}, {\"word\": \"那\", \"start\": 428.396, \"end\": 428.656, \"score\": 0.87}, {\"word\": \"保\", \"start\": 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{\"word\": \"決\"}, {\"word\": \"這\"}, {\"word\": \"個\"}, {\"word\": \"問\"}, {\"word\": \"題\"}, {\"word\": \"以\", \"start\": 729.112, \"end\": 729.132, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"上\", \"start\": 729.132, \"end\": 729.152, \"score\": 0.0}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}, {\"word\": \"謝\"}], \"language\": \"zh\"}","srt":"1\n00:00:10,733 --> 00:00:19,177\n主席,有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。請四位列席官員上台。委員長\n\n2\n00:00:23,627 --> 00:00:30,817\n首先我這邊先感謝我們宗嘉秉委員召委安排今天這一場專報那針對強制執行保單解約的一個問題那邀請各個主管單位來報告\n\n3\n00:00:38,547 --> 00:00:55,745\n因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題事實上我們也接到非常多的一些陳情案件那已經是真的是造成很廣大的民怨其實不只造成民怨啦其實他的案件已經造成司法單位的很大的負擔我們在之前我們還在一直在討論有關於\n\n4\n00:00:57,166 --> 00:01:20,233\n司法院、法官案件量過多所以造成今天負荷過重甚至有法官不幸墜樓像這種情形其實都跟我們在有些制度的設計上可能都有一些問題所以非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員今天安排這場專報但是我們今天這個臨時提案\n\n5\n00:01:22,093 --> 00:01:46,067\n中委員找我做這個臨時提案連述的話我也是馬上就同意不過這臨時提案其實也只是做權宜之計是在我們的法制跟制度跟政策修改之前那針對現在的亂象基本上等於是畫一個直寫的線而已但終究長遠來講的話我覺得還是需要在制度面上要拿出一個方法\n\n6\n00:01:46,767 --> 00:02:06,163\n所以那有幾個問題想要就教一下就是也讓大家看看這個問題的嚴重度我們知道授權保單它是不是可以視為債務人的財產而變成法院強制執行的標的那主要是這個紛爭的緣起就是110年度12月9號最高法院民事大法庭這108年\n\n7\n00:02:08,204 --> 00:02:23,705\n就是颱抗大制第897號裁定中．他認為執行法院在必要時可以合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人的人壽保險契約．命第三人保險公司償付解約金\n\n8\n00:02:24,546 --> 00:02:41,915\n那這個897才定之後實際上債權人向執行法院申請強制執行的時候那麼這個申請查詢債務對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加我看法務部也有給數字嘛就是司法院給數字112年1月1號到113月就是總共查詢了多少件\n\n9\n00:02:48,678 --> 00:03:09,318\n二十三萬件嘛對不對那其實這就是一個很大很大的一個我們講多出來的很大的負擔那不只是說查詢以外合法扣押命令也有三萬四千六百八十件那合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約有八千七百一十二件\n\n10\n00:03:09,958 --> 00:03:36,864\n那現在就是全國有21家保險公司兩家的總公司是在士林地方法院的轄區其他19家都是在這個臺灣臺北地方法院轄區內所以因此案件量確實是大增我想問一下我們的司法院秘書長現在對於這個事情目前法院的狀況是如何啊已經變成很沉重的負擔了吧\n\n11\n00:03:39,684 --> 00:04:02,313\n所以我們在臺北地院執行處那邊就在4月份就趕快新增7個執行局包括這個書記官7個人、指導員7個人還有司法事務官5個人另外增加委員會人力17人那一些辦公室趕快擴增還有事務機趕快增設這些我們都趕快要應急變成重災區\n\n12\n00:04:07,876 --> 00:04:26,656\n其實我跟那個秘書長剛好講一件事這個其實跟我們之前關切的就是法官過勞那個還有書記官是檢察官過勞都有相同的類似問題因為雖然說我是非常那個秘書長你知道我都非常支持今天法官的員額因為案件量實在大增法官員額應該要增加\n\n13\n00:04:29,099 --> 00:04:45,898\n但是其實另外一個法官過牢的原因也不純粹是就是人手不足的問題而是近來很多的一些案件整個數量大增跟就像比方說今天這件事情就憑空就突然就多出了\n\n14\n00:04:46,358 --> 00:05:00,796\n的非常大的案件員那如果說今天能夠做一些簡化的一些做措施的話或是做一些那個制度上的調整的話你就可以有效的減少很多的案件所以不是純粹剛剛夏秘書長講說我們能力增加而已來應對\n\n15\n00:05:01,997 --> 00:05:28,665\n更重要的是要去檢視這些案件人員的增加他是怎麼來的那有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理的來減少這個案件的來源或是做什麼分別比方說之前我有在質詢的時候講到就是檢察官檢警分工的問題那檢警如果分工做得好的話有些很重複的一些司法程序被節省下來的時候那就可以讓我們司法人員實質上的負擔就減輕嘛這一點我不知道秘書長認不認同\n\n16\n00:05:30,543 --> 00:05:35,765\n委員我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法剛剛委員有問到程序簡化的問題我們目前查詢的案件有23萬件正如委員所說\n\n17\n00:05:53,852 --> 00:06:09,598\n那如果這個查詢事件在事發之初也就是債權人不向法院申請直接向受選工會去申請那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟受選工會之間流動\n\n18\n00:06:10,538 --> 00:06:11,559\n那我想說如果這個部分可以直接像稅捐激增法33條一樣\n\n19\n00:06:39,593 --> 00:06:54,726\n讓這些哪有執行民意的債權人直接向稅捐機關那在這裡就是直接向受險公會或者是向金管會去查詢資料那中間的這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來\n\n20\n00:06:55,592 --> 00:07:20,299\n那我想聽聽一下金管會的意見可以說明一下跟委員報告因為我們現在建立的保險通報系統原來是經過這個藥保人同意那保險公司才把他的投保的這個資訊建置在這個壽檢工會那他的目的當初我們請這個藥保人同意的目的是要做核保使用\n\n21\n00:07:37,506 --> 00:07:51,526\n他們才會請那個法院依照這個法令的規定來要求查詢其實我剛剛看主席也笑了兩邊聽起來都有道理可是問題是現在你現在增加的東西就是雙方要協調出一個機制\n\n22\n00:07:53,448 --> 00:08:16,585\n這是為什麼剛剛講說我們中央兵召委講了一個臨時提案其實只是暫時稍微去緩和問題你光這件事情我覺得兩邊就真的是要協調出一個做法一方面當然是對於屬於法律程序的更嚴謹的保障但另外一方面也有涉及到說今天就是多了23萬件的案件量其實不只是這個東西啦因為我今天都還沒有時間討論到\n\n23\n00:08:17,426 --> 00:08:34,106\n我們對於所謂的那個一般的民眾今天這個就是去保險的民眾我們介紹真的是像我們剛剛為什麼講說要限定一個金額那有些那種要保金額那非常低微但是可是你們繼續做這些事情其實對他們騷擾跟所謂的那個\n\n24\n00:08:34,787 --> 00:08:37,769\n當時法務部認為法院認為的必要性是在哪裡?什麼叫必要性?他說必要時可以核發命令終止\n\n25\n00:09:00,546 --> 00:09:19,838\n然後債務為要保人的人受保險契約那這必要性的原則是什麼所以呢法院在審查的時候就會回到強制執行法第一條跟122條去審查當然看似好像是沒有一個具體標準但在實際的我們具體個案其實所謂\n\n26\n00:09:24,442 --> 00:09:41,014\n一般的司法事務官就會去審查這保險契約的性質是什麼有沒有覆約那麼要債務人的比如說他的年紀多大有沒有工作能力可不可能再獲得營業收入還有就是他的\n\n27\n00:09:41,795 --> 00:10:08,223\n本身還有共同生活的這些家屬他的基本需求是什麼那會去做一個衡量這就是我覺得你就看到這整個財產有多複雜你光一個必要性三個字已經講那麼久了但是我今天回到民眾的身上來看我就受理一些案件啊比方其中一個個案民眾是他是在二三十幾年前為哥哥所開的公司做擔保人\n\n28\n00:10:08,643 --> 00:10:09,463\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算\n\n29\n00:10:24,712 --> 00:10:25,193\n這件事情你覺得有何必要性嗎?\n\n30\n00:10:45,147 --> 00:11:01,998\n因為要看他全部的責任我這樣講啦基本上我知道啦基本上你這個所謂的這個897其實主要是避免說一些債務人脫產嘛對不對可是你去講債務人脫產有時候那個金額剛剛我們講10萬元以上10萬元以下那種金額20萬金額說真的要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦\n\n31\n00:11:15,204 --> 00:11:32,488\n所以這樣在衡量之下通常會認為不需要解約那我想在我們實務的可是我跟你講你實際上就是做到往解約方向走他就被強制執行啊所以因此今天你一個法院的一個裁定你今天說的不清不楚\n\n32\n00:11:33,608 --> 00:11:56,725\n執行下去就是幾十萬人受害都被捲到這裡面去真的我真的拜託今天不只是今天從法官減量啦你今天從所謂的民眾今天受到這麼多的困擾因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能對不對而有些保單都是二三十年前做的金額也不大結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件\n\n33\n00:11:57,779 --> 00:12:09,152\n那你也跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有備的啦因為實際上他不是為了脫產目的那這種部分的話真的不能再推來推去拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題以上謝謝\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n10733\t19177\t主席,有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。請四位列席官員上台。委員長\n23627\t30817\t首先我這邊先感謝我們宗嘉秉委員召委安排今天這一場專報那針對強制執行保單解約的一個問題那邀請各個主管單位來報告\n38547\t55745\t因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題事實上我們也接到非常多的一些陳情案件那已經是真的是造成很廣大的民怨其實不只造成民怨啦其實他的案件已經造成司法單位的很大的負擔我們在之前我們還在一直在討論有關於\n57166\t80233\t司法院、法官案件量過多所以造成今天負荷過重甚至有法官不幸墜樓像這種情形其實都跟我們在有些制度的設計上可能都有一些問題所以非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員今天安排這場專報但是我們今天這個臨時提案\n82093\t106067\t中委員找我做這個臨時提案連述的話我也是馬上就同意不過這臨時提案其實也只是做權宜之計是在我們的法制跟制度跟政策修改之前那針對現在的亂象基本上等於是畫一個直寫的線而已但終究長遠來講的話我覺得還是需要在制度面上要拿出一個方法\n106767\t126163\t所以那有幾個問題想要就教一下就是也讓大家看看這個問題的嚴重度我們知道授權保單它是不是可以視為債務人的財產而變成法院強制執行的標的那主要是這個紛爭的緣起就是110年度12月9號最高法院民事大法庭這108年\n128204\t143705\t就是颱抗大制第897號裁定中．他認為執行法院在必要時可以合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人的人壽保險契約．命第三人保險公司償付解約金\n144546\t161915\t那這個897才定之後實際上債權人向執行法院申請強制執行的時候那麼這個申請查詢債務對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加我看法務部也有給數字嘛就是司法院給數字112年1月1號到113月就是總共查詢了多少件\n168678\t189318\t二十三萬件嘛對不對那其實這就是一個很大很大的一個我們講多出來的很大的負擔那不只是說查詢以外合法扣押命令也有三萬四千六百八十件那合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約有八千七百一十二件\n189958\t216864\t那現在就是全國有21家保險公司兩家的總公司是在士林地方法院的轄區其他19家都是在這個臺灣臺北地方法院轄區內所以因此案件量確實是大增我想問一下我們的司法院秘書長現在對於這個事情目前法院的狀況是如何啊已經變成很沉重的負擔了吧\n219684\t242313\t所以我們在臺北地院執行處那邊就在4月份就趕快新增7個執行局包括這個書記官7個人、指導員7個人還有司法事務官5個人另外增加委員會人力17人那一些辦公室趕快擴增還有事務機趕快增設這些我們都趕快要應急變成重災區\n247876\t266656\t其實我跟那個秘書長剛好講一件事這個其實跟我們之前關切的就是法官過勞那個還有書記官是檢察官過勞都有相同的類似問題因為雖然說我是非常那個秘書長你知道我都非常支持今天法官的員額因為案件量實在大增法官員額應該要增加\n269099\t285898\t但是其實另外一個法官過牢的原因也不純粹是就是人手不足的問題而是近來很多的一些案件整個數量大增跟就像比方說今天這件事情就憑空就突然就多出了\n286358\t300796\t的非常大的案件員那如果說今天能夠做一些簡化的一些做措施的話或是做一些那個制度上的調整的話你就可以有效的減少很多的案件所以不是純粹剛剛夏秘書長講說我們能力增加而已來應對\n301997\t328665\t更重要的是要去檢視這些案件人員的增加他是怎麼來的那有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理的來減少這個案件的來源或是做什麼分別比方說之前我有在質詢的時候講到就是檢察官檢警分工的問題那檢警如果分工做得好的話有些很重複的一些司法程序被節省下來的時候那就可以讓我們司法人員實質上的負擔就減輕嘛這一點我不知道秘書長認不認同\n330543\t335765\t委員我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法剛剛委員有問到程序簡化的問題我們目前查詢的案件有23萬件正如委員所說\n353852\t369598\t那如果這個查詢事件在事發之初也就是債權人不向法院申請直接向受選工會去申請那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟受選工會之間流動\n370538\t371559\t那我想說如果這個部分可以直接像稅捐激增法33條一樣\n399593\t414726\t讓這些哪有執行民意的債權人直接向稅捐機關那在這裡就是直接向受險公會或者是向金管會去查詢資料那中間的這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來\n415592\t440299\t那我想聽聽一下金管會的意見可以說明一下跟委員報告因為我們現在建立的保險通報系統原來是經過這個藥保人同意那保險公司才把他的投保的這個資訊建置在這個壽檢工會那他的目的當初我們請這個藥保人同意的目的是要做核保使用\n440879\t457159\t議員議員\n457506\t471526\t他們才會請那個法院依照這個法令的規定來要求查詢其實我剛剛看主席也笑了兩邊聽起來都有道理可是問題是現在你現在增加的東西就是雙方要協調出一個機制\n473448\t496585\t這是為什麼剛剛講說我們中央兵召委講了一個臨時提案其實只是暫時稍微去緩和問題你光這件事情我覺得兩邊就真的是要協調出一個做法一方面當然是對於屬於法律程序的更嚴謹的保障但另外一方面也有涉及到說今天就是多了23萬件的案件量其實不只是這個東西啦因為我今天都還沒有時間討論到\n497426\t514106\t我們對於所謂的那個一般的民眾今天這個就是去保險的民眾我們介紹真的是像我們剛剛為什麼講說要限定一個金額那有些那種要保金額那非常低微但是可是你們繼續做這些事情其實對他們騷擾跟所謂的那個\n514787\t517769\t當時法務部認為法院認為的必要性是在哪裡?什麼叫必要性?他說必要時可以核發命令終止\n540546\t559838\t然後債務為要保人的人受保險契約那這必要性的原則是什麼所以呢法院在審查的時候就會回到強制執行法第一條跟122條去審查當然看似好像是沒有一個具體標準但在實際的我們具體個案其實所謂\n564442\t581014\t一般的司法事務官就會去審查這保險契約的性質是什麼有沒有覆約那麼要債務人的比如說他的年紀多大有沒有工作能力可不可能再獲得營業收入還有就是他的\n581795\t608223\t本身還有共同生活的這些家屬他的基本需求是什麼那會去做一個衡量這就是我覺得你就看到這整個財產有多複雜你光一個必要性三個字已經講那麼久了但是我今天回到民眾的身上來看我就受理一些案件啊比方其中一個個案民眾是他是在二三十幾年前為哥哥所開的公司做擔保人\n608643\t609463\t二、處理113年度中央政府總預算\n624712\t625193\t這件事情你覺得有何必要性嗎?\n645147\t661998\t因為要看他全部的責任我這樣講啦基本上我知道啦基本上你這個所謂的這個897其實主要是避免說一些債務人脫產嘛對不對可是你去講債務人脫產有時候那個金額剛剛我們講10萬元以上10萬元以下那種金額20萬金額說真的要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦\n675204\t692488\t所以這樣在衡量之下通常會認為不需要解約那我想在我們實務的可是我跟你講你實際上就是做到往解約方向走他就被強制執行啊所以因此今天你一個法院的一個裁定你今天說的不清不楚\n693608\t716725\t執行下去就是幾十萬人受害都被捲到這裡面去真的我真的拜託今天不只是今天從法官減量啦你今天從所謂的民眾今天受到這麼多的困擾因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能對不對而有些保單都是二三十年前做的金額也不大結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件\n717779\t729152\t那你也跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有備的啦因為實際上他不是為了脫產目的那這種部分的話真的不能再推來推去拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題以上謝謝\n","txt":"主席,有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。請四位列席官員上台。委員長\n首先我這邊先感謝我們宗嘉秉委員召委安排今天這一場專報那針對強制執行保單解約的一個問題那邀請各個主管單位來報告\n因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題事實上我們也接到非常多的一些陳情案件那已經是真的是造成很廣大的民怨其實不只造成民怨啦其實他的案件已經造成司法單位的很大的負擔我們在之前我們還在一直在討論有關於\n司法院、法官案件量過多所以造成今天負荷過重甚至有法官不幸墜樓像這種情形其實都跟我們在有些制度的設計上可能都有一些問題所以非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員今天安排這場專報但是我們今天這個臨時提案\n中委員找我做這個臨時提案連述的話我也是馬上就同意不過這臨時提案其實也只是做權宜之計是在我們的法制跟制度跟政策修改之前那針對現在的亂象基本上等於是畫一個直寫的線而已但終究長遠來講的話我覺得還是需要在制度面上要拿出一個方法\n所以那有幾個問題想要就教一下就是也讓大家看看這個問題的嚴重度我們知道授權保單它是不是可以視為債務人的財產而變成法院強制執行的標的那主要是這個紛爭的緣起就是110年度12月9號最高法院民事大法庭這108年\n就是颱抗大制第897號裁定中．他認為執行法院在必要時可以合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人的人壽保險契約．命第三人保險公司償付解約金\n那這個897才定之後實際上債權人向執行法院申請強制執行的時候那麼這個申請查詢債務對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加我看法務部也有給數字嘛就是司法院給數字112年1月1號到113月就是總共查詢了多少件\n二十三萬件嘛對不對那其實這就是一個很大很大的一個我們講多出來的很大的負擔那不只是說查詢以外合法扣押命令也有三萬四千六百八十件那合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約有八千七百一十二件\n那現在就是全國有21家保險公司兩家的總公司是在士林地方法院的轄區其他19家都是在這個臺灣臺北地方法院轄區內所以因此案件量確實是大增我想問一下我們的司法院秘書長現在對於這個事情目前法院的狀況是如何啊已經變成很沉重的負擔了吧\n所以我們在臺北地院執行處那邊就在4月份就趕快新增7個執行局包括這個書記官7個人、指導員7個人還有司法事務官5個人另外增加委員會人力17人那一些辦公室趕快擴增還有事務機趕快增設這些我們都趕快要應急變成重災區\n其實我跟那個秘書長剛好講一件事這個其實跟我們之前關切的就是法官過勞那個還有書記官是檢察官過勞都有相同的類似問題因為雖然說我是非常那個秘書長你知道我都非常支持今天法官的員額因為案件量實在大增法官員額應該要增加\n但是其實另外一個法官過牢的原因也不純粹是就是人手不足的問題而是近來很多的一些案件整個數量大增跟就像比方說今天這件事情就憑空就突然就多出了\n的非常大的案件員那如果說今天能夠做一些簡化的一些做措施的話或是做一些那個制度上的調整的話你就可以有效的減少很多的案件所以不是純粹剛剛夏秘書長講說我們能力增加而已來應對\n更重要的是要去檢視這些案件人員的增加他是怎麼來的那有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理的來減少這個案件的來源或是做什麼分別比方說之前我有在質詢的時候講到就是檢察官檢警分工的問題那檢警如果分工做得好的話有些很重複的一些司法程序被節省下來的時候那就可以讓我們司法人員實質上的負擔就減輕嘛這一點我不知道秘書長認不認同\n委員我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法剛剛委員有問到程序簡化的問題我們目前查詢的案件有23萬件正如委員所說\n那如果這個查詢事件在事發之初也就是債權人不向法院申請直接向受選工會去申請那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟受選工會之間流動\n那我想說如果這個部分可以直接像稅捐激增法33條一樣\n讓這些哪有執行民意的債權人直接向稅捐機關那在這裡就是直接向受險公會或者是向金管會去查詢資料那中間的這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來\n那我想聽聽一下金管會的意見可以說明一下跟委員報告因為我們現在建立的保險通報系統原來是經過這個藥保人同意那保險公司才把他的投保的這個資訊建置在這個壽檢工會那他的目的當初我們請這個藥保人同意的目的是要做核保使用\n議員議員\n他們才會請那個法院依照這個法令的規定來要求查詢其實我剛剛看主席也笑了兩邊聽起來都有道理可是問題是現在你現在增加的東西就是雙方要協調出一個機制\n這是為什麼剛剛講說我們中央兵召委講了一個臨時提案其實只是暫時稍微去緩和問題你光這件事情我覺得兩邊就真的是要協調出一個做法一方面當然是對於屬於法律程序的更嚴謹的保障但另外一方面也有涉及到說今天就是多了23萬件的案件量其實不只是這個東西啦因為我今天都還沒有時間討論到\n我們對於所謂的那個一般的民眾今天這個就是去保險的民眾我們介紹真的是像我們剛剛為什麼講說要限定一個金額那有些那種要保金額那非常低微但是可是你們繼續做這些事情其實對他們騷擾跟所謂的那個\n當時法務部認為法院認為的必要性是在哪裡?什麼叫必要性?他說必要時可以核發命令終止\n然後債務為要保人的人受保險契約那這必要性的原則是什麼所以呢法院在審查的時候就會回到強制執行法第一條跟122條去審查當然看似好像是沒有一個具體標準但在實際的我們具體個案其實所謂\n一般的司法事務官就會去審查這保險契約的性質是什麼有沒有覆約那麼要債務人的比如說他的年紀多大有沒有工作能力可不可能再獲得營業收入還有就是他的\n本身還有共同生活的這些家屬他的基本需求是什麼那會去做一個衡量這就是我覺得你就看到這整個財產有多複雜你光一個必要性三個字已經講那麼久了但是我今天回到民眾的身上來看我就受理一些案件啊比方其中一個個案民眾是他是在二三十幾年前為哥哥所開的公司做擔保人\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算\n這件事情你覺得有何必要性嗎?\n因為要看他全部的責任我這樣講啦基本上我知道啦基本上你這個所謂的這個897其實主要是避免說一些債務人脫產嘛對不對可是你去講債務人脫產有時候那個金額剛剛我們講10萬元以上10萬元以下那種金額20萬金額說真的要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦\n所以這樣在衡量之下通常會認為不需要解約那我想在我們實務的可是我跟你講你實際上就是做到往解約方向走他就被強制執行啊所以因此今天你一個法院的一個裁定你今天說的不清不楚\n執行下去就是幾十萬人受害都被捲到這裡面去真的我真的拜託今天不只是今天從法官減量啦你今天從所謂的民眾今天受到這麼多的困擾因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能對不對而有些保單都是二三十年前做的金額也不大結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件\n那你也跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有備的啦因為實際上他不是為了脫產目的那這種部分的話真的不能再推來推去拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題以上謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:10.733 --> 00:19.177\n主席,有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。請四位列席官員上台。委員長\n\n00:23.627 --> 00:30.817\n首先我這邊先感謝我們宗嘉秉委員召委安排今天這一場專報那針對強制執行保單解約的一個問題那邀請各個主管單位來報告\n\n00:38.547 --> 00:55.745\n因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題事實上我們也接到非常多的一些陳情案件那已經是真的是造成很廣大的民怨其實不只造成民怨啦其實他的案件已經造成司法單位的很大的負擔我們在之前我們還在一直在討論有關於\n\n00:57.166 --> 01:20.233\n司法院、法官案件量過多所以造成今天負荷過重甚至有法官不幸墜樓像這種情形其實都跟我們在有些制度的設計上可能都有一些問題所以非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員今天安排這場專報但是我們今天這個臨時提案\n\n01:22.093 --> 01:46.067\n中委員找我做這個臨時提案連述的話我也是馬上就同意不過這臨時提案其實也只是做權宜之計是在我們的法制跟制度跟政策修改之前那針對現在的亂象基本上等於是畫一個直寫的線而已但終究長遠來講的話我覺得還是需要在制度面上要拿出一個方法\n\n01:46.767 --> 02:06.163\n所以那有幾個問題想要就教一下就是也讓大家看看這個問題的嚴重度我們知道授權保單它是不是可以視為債務人的財產而變成法院強制執行的標的那主要是這個紛爭的緣起就是110年度12月9號最高法院民事大法庭這108年\n\n02:08.204 --> 02:23.705\n就是颱抗大制第897號裁定中．他認為執行法院在必要時可以合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人的人壽保險契約．命第三人保險公司償付解約金\n\n02:24.546 --> 02:41.915\n那這個897才定之後實際上債權人向執行法院申請強制執行的時候那麼這個申請查詢債務對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加我看法務部也有給數字嘛就是司法院給數字112年1月1號到113月就是總共查詢了多少件\n\n02:48.678 --> 03:09.318\n二十三萬件嘛對不對那其實這就是一個很大很大的一個我們講多出來的很大的負擔那不只是說查詢以外合法扣押命令也有三萬四千六百八十件那合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約有八千七百一十二件\n\n03:09.958 --> 03:36.864\n那現在就是全國有21家保險公司兩家的總公司是在士林地方法院的轄區其他19家都是在這個臺灣臺北地方法院轄區內所以因此案件量確實是大增我想問一下我們的司法院秘書長現在對於這個事情目前法院的狀況是如何啊已經變成很沉重的負擔了吧\n\n03:39.684 --> 04:02.313\n所以我們在臺北地院執行處那邊就在4月份就趕快新增7個執行局包括這個書記官7個人、指導員7個人還有司法事務官5個人另外增加委員會人力17人那一些辦公室趕快擴增還有事務機趕快增設這些我們都趕快要應急變成重災區\n\n04:07.876 --> 04:26.656\n其實我跟那個秘書長剛好講一件事這個其實跟我們之前關切的就是法官過勞那個還有書記官是檢察官過勞都有相同的類似問題因為雖然說我是非常那個秘書長你知道我都非常支持今天法官的員額因為案件量實在大增法官員額應該要增加\n\n04:29.099 --> 04:45.898\n但是其實另外一個法官過牢的原因也不純粹是就是人手不足的問題而是近來很多的一些案件整個數量大增跟就像比方說今天這件事情就憑空就突然就多出了\n\n04:46.358 --> 05:00.796\n的非常大的案件員那如果說今天能夠做一些簡化的一些做措施的話或是做一些那個制度上的調整的話你就可以有效的減少很多的案件所以不是純粹剛剛夏秘書長講說我們能力增加而已來應對\n\n05:01.997 --> 05:28.665\n更重要的是要去檢視這些案件人員的增加他是怎麼來的那有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理的來減少這個案件的來源或是做什麼分別比方說之前我有在質詢的時候講到就是檢察官檢警分工的問題那檢警如果分工做得好的話有些很重複的一些司法程序被節省下來的時候那就可以讓我們司法人員實質上的負擔就減輕嘛這一點我不知道秘書長認不認同\n\n05:30.543 --> 05:35.765\n委員我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法剛剛委員有問到程序簡化的問題我們目前查詢的案件有23萬件正如委員所說\n\n05:53.852 --> 06:09.598\n那如果這個查詢事件在事發之初也就是債權人不向法院申請直接向受選工會去申請那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟受選工會之間流動\n\n06:10.538 --> 06:11.559\n那我想說如果這個部分可以直接像稅捐激增法33條一樣\n\n06:39.593 --> 06:54.726\n讓這些哪有執行民意的債權人直接向稅捐機關那在這裡就是直接向受險公會或者是向金管會去查詢資料那中間的這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來\n\n06:55.592 --> 07:20.299\n那我想聽聽一下金管會的意見可以說明一下跟委員報告因為我們現在建立的保險通報系統原來是經過這個藥保人同意那保險公司才把他的投保的這個資訊建置在這個壽檢工會那他的目的當初我們請這個藥保人同意的目的是要做核保使用\n\n07:37.506 --> 07:51.526\n他們才會請那個法院依照這個法令的規定來要求查詢其實我剛剛看主席也笑了兩邊聽起來都有道理可是問題是現在你現在增加的東西就是雙方要協調出一個機制\n\n07:53.448 --> 08:16.585\n這是為什麼剛剛講說我們中央兵召委講了一個臨時提案其實只是暫時稍微去緩和問題你光這件事情我覺得兩邊就真的是要協調出一個做法一方面當然是對於屬於法律程序的更嚴謹的保障但另外一方面也有涉及到說今天就是多了23萬件的案件量其實不只是這個東西啦因為我今天都還沒有時間討論到\n\n08:17.426 --> 08:34.106\n我們對於所謂的那個一般的民眾今天這個就是去保險的民眾我們介紹真的是像我們剛剛為什麼講說要限定一個金額那有些那種要保金額那非常低微但是可是你們繼續做這些事情其實對他們騷擾跟所謂的那個\n\n08:34.787 --> 08:37.769\n當時法務部認為法院認為的必要性是在哪裡?什麼叫必要性?他說必要時可以核發命令終止\n\n09:00.546 --> 09:19.838\n然後債務為要保人的人受保險契約那這必要性的原則是什麼所以呢法院在審查的時候就會回到強制執行法第一條跟122條去審查當然看似好像是沒有一個具體標準但在實際的我們具體個案其實所謂\n\n09:24.442 --> 09:41.014\n一般的司法事務官就會去審查這保險契約的性質是什麼有沒有覆約那麼要債務人的比如說他的年紀多大有沒有工作能力可不可能再獲得營業收入還有就是他的\n\n09:41.795 --> 10:08.223\n本身還有共同生活的這些家屬他的基本需求是什麼那會去做一個衡量這就是我覺得你就看到這整個財產有多複雜你光一個必要性三個字已經講那麼久了但是我今天回到民眾的身上來看我就受理一些案件啊比方其中一個個案民眾是他是在二三十幾年前為哥哥所開的公司做擔保人\n\n10:08.643 --> 10:09.463\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算\n\n10:24.712 --> 10:25.193\n這件事情你覺得有何必要性嗎?\n\n10:45.147 --> 11:01.998\n因為要看他全部的責任我這樣講啦基本上我知道啦基本上你這個所謂的這個897其實主要是避免說一些債務人脫產嘛對不對可是你去講債務人脫產有時候那個金額剛剛我們講10萬元以上10萬元以下那種金額20萬金額說真的要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦\n\n11:15.204 --> 11:32.488\n所以這樣在衡量之下通常會認為不需要解約那我想在我們實務的可是我跟你講你實際上就是做到往解約方向走他就被強制執行啊所以因此今天你一個法院的一個裁定你今天說的不清不楚\n\n11:33.608 --> 11:56.725\n執行下去就是幾十萬人受害都被捲到這裡面去真的我真的拜託今天不只是今天從法官減量啦你今天從所謂的民眾今天受到這麼多的困擾因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能對不對而有些保單都是二三十年前做的金額也不大結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件\n\n11:57.779 --> 12:09.152\n那你也跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有備的啦因為實際上他不是為了脫產目的那這種部分的話真的不能再推來推去拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題以上謝謝\n\n","segments":[{"start":10.733,"end":19.177,"text":"主席,有請司法院、法務部、金管會、財政部。請四位列席官員上台。委員長"},{"start":23.627,"end":30.817,"text":"首先我這邊先感謝我們宗嘉秉委員召委安排今天這一場專報那針對強制執行保單解約的一個問題那邀請各個主管單位來報告"},{"start":38.547,"end":55.745,"text":"因為我們辦公室也在關切這個問題事實上我們也接到非常多的一些陳情案件那已經是真的是造成很廣大的民怨其實不只造成民怨啦其實他的案件已經造成司法單位的很大的負擔我們在之前我們還在一直在討論有關於"},{"start":57.166,"end":80.233,"text":"司法院、法官案件量過多所以造成今天負荷過重甚至有法官不幸墜樓像這種情形其實都跟我們在有些制度的設計上可能都有一些問題所以非常感謝鍾嘉賓委員今天安排這場專報但是我們今天這個臨時提案"},{"start":82.093,"end":106.067,"text":"中委員找我做這個臨時提案連述的話我也是馬上就同意不過這臨時提案其實也只是做權宜之計是在我們的法制跟制度跟政策修改之前那針對現在的亂象基本上等於是畫一個直寫的線而已但終究長遠來講的話我覺得還是需要在制度面上要拿出一個方法"},{"start":106.767,"end":126.163,"text":"所以那有幾個問題想要就教一下就是也讓大家看看這個問題的嚴重度我們知道授權保單它是不是可以視為債務人的財產而變成法院強制執行的標的那主要是這個紛爭的緣起就是110年度12月9號最高法院民事大法庭這108年"},{"start":128.204,"end":143.705,"text":"就是颱抗大制第897號裁定中．他認為執行法院在必要時可以合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人的人壽保險契約．命第三人保險公司償付解約金"},{"start":144.546,"end":161.915,"text":"那這個897才定之後實際上債權人向執行法院申請強制執行的時候那麼這個申請查詢債務對保險公司的人壽保險契約債權者大幅增加我看法務部也有給數字嘛就是司法院給數字112年1月1號到113月就是總共查詢了多少件"},{"start":168.678,"end":189.318,"text":"二十三萬件嘛對不對那其實這就是一個很大很大的一個我們講多出來的很大的負擔那不只是說查詢以外合法扣押命令也有三萬四千六百八十件那合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約有八千七百一十二件"},{"start":189.958,"end":216.864,"text":"那現在就是全國有21家保險公司兩家的總公司是在士林地方法院的轄區其他19家都是在這個臺灣臺北地方法院轄區內所以因此案件量確實是大增我想問一下我們的司法院秘書長現在對於這個事情目前法院的狀況是如何啊已經變成很沉重的負擔了吧"},{"start":219.684,"end":242.313,"text":"所以我們在臺北地院執行處那邊就在4月份就趕快新增7個執行局包括這個書記官7個人、指導員7個人還有司法事務官5個人另外增加委員會人力17人那一些辦公室趕快擴增還有事務機趕快增設這些我們都趕快要應急變成重災區"},{"start":247.876,"end":266.656,"text":"其實我跟那個秘書長剛好講一件事這個其實跟我們之前關切的就是法官過勞那個還有書記官是檢察官過勞都有相同的類似問題因為雖然說我是非常那個秘書長你知道我都非常支持今天法官的員額因為案件量實在大增法官員額應該要增加"},{"start":269.099,"end":285.898,"text":"但是其實另外一個法官過牢的原因也不純粹是就是人手不足的問題而是近來很多的一些案件整個數量大增跟就像比方說今天這件事情就憑空就突然就多出了"},{"start":286.358,"end":300.796,"text":"的非常大的案件員那如果說今天能夠做一些簡化的一些做措施的話或是做一些那個制度上的調整的話你就可以有效的減少很多的案件所以不是純粹剛剛夏秘書長講說我們能力增加而已來應對"},{"start":301.997,"end":328.665,"text":"更重要的是要去檢視這些案件人員的增加他是怎麼來的那有沒有辦法透過什麼方式去合理的來減少這個案件的來源或是做什麼分別比方說之前我有在質詢的時候講到就是檢察官檢警分工的問題那檢警如果分工做得好的話有些很重複的一些司法程序被節省下來的時候那就可以讓我們司法人員實質上的負擔就減輕嘛這一點我不知道秘書長認不認同"},{"start":330.543,"end":335.765,"text":"委員我想藉這個機會跟委員表達一個想法剛剛委員有問到程序簡化的問題我們目前查詢的案件有23萬件正如委員所說"},{"start":353.852,"end":369.598,"text":"那如果這個查詢事件在事發之初也就是債權人不向法院申請直接向受選工會去申請那麼這些東西就不會在法院跟受選工會之間流動"},{"start":370.538,"end":371.559,"text":"那我想說如果這個部分可以直接像稅捐激增法33條一樣"},{"start":399.593,"end":414.726,"text":"讓這些哪有執行民意的債權人直接向稅捐機關那在這裡就是直接向受險公會或者是向金管會去查詢資料那中間的這些浪費的程序跟勞費就可以減省下來"},{"start":415.592,"end":440.299,"text":"那我想聽聽一下金管會的意見可以說明一下跟委員報告因為我們現在建立的保險通報系統原來是經過這個藥保人同意那保險公司才把他的投保的這個資訊建置在這個壽檢工會那他的目的當初我們請這個藥保人同意的目的是要做核保使用"},{"start":440.879,"end":457.159,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":457.506,"end":471.526,"text":"他們才會請那個法院依照這個法令的規定來要求查詢其實我剛剛看主席也笑了兩邊聽起來都有道理可是問題是現在你現在增加的東西就是雙方要協調出一個機制"},{"start":473.448,"end":496.585,"text":"這是為什麼剛剛講說我們中央兵召委講了一個臨時提案其實只是暫時稍微去緩和問題你光這件事情我覺得兩邊就真的是要協調出一個做法一方面當然是對於屬於法律程序的更嚴謹的保障但另外一方面也有涉及到說今天就是多了23萬件的案件量其實不只是這個東西啦因為我今天都還沒有時間討論到"},{"start":497.426,"end":514.106,"text":"我們對於所謂的那個一般的民眾今天這個就是去保險的民眾我們介紹真的是像我們剛剛為什麼講說要限定一個金額那有些那種要保金額那非常低微但是可是你們繼續做這些事情其實對他們騷擾跟所謂的那個"},{"start":514.787,"end":517.769,"text":"當時法務部認為法院認為的必要性是在哪裡?什麼叫必要性?他說必要時可以核發命令終止"},{"start":540.546,"end":559.838,"text":"然後債務為要保人的人受保險契約那這必要性的原則是什麼所以呢法院在審查的時候就會回到強制執行法第一條跟122條去審查當然看似好像是沒有一個具體標準但在實際的我們具體個案其實所謂"},{"start":564.442,"end":581.014,"text":"一般的司法事務官就會去審查這保險契約的性質是什麼有沒有覆約那麼要債務人的比如說他的年紀多大有沒有工作能力可不可能再獲得營業收入還有就是他的"},{"start":581.795,"end":608.223,"text":"本身還有共同生活的這些家屬他的基本需求是什麼那會去做一個衡量這就是我覺得你就看到這整個財產有多複雜你光一個必要性三個字已經講那麼久了但是我今天回到民眾的身上來看我就受理一些案件啊比方其中一個個案民眾是他是在二三十幾年前為哥哥所開的公司做擔保人"},{"start":608.643,"end":609.463,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":624.712,"end":625.193,"text":"這件事情你覺得有何必要性嗎?"},{"start":645.147,"end":661.998,"text":"因為要看他全部的責任我這樣講啦基本上我知道啦基本上你這個所謂的這個897其實主要是避免說一些債務人脫產嘛對不對可是你去講債務人脫產有時候那個金額剛剛我們講10萬元以上10萬元以下那種金額20萬金額說真的要脫產不是脫這個金額的啦"},{"start":675.204,"end":692.488,"text":"所以這樣在衡量之下通常會認為不需要解約那我想在我們實務的可是我跟你講你實際上就是做到往解約方向走他就被強制執行啊所以因此今天你一個法院的一個裁定你今天說的不清不楚"},{"start":693.608,"end":716.725,"text":"執行下去就是幾十萬人受害都被捲到這裡面去真的我真的拜託今天不只是今天從法官減量啦你今天從所謂的民眾今天受到這麼多的困擾因為保險它有社會安定的一個功能對不對而有些保單都是二三十年前做的金額也不大結果到最後是因為後來的一個不可預期的債務事件"},{"start":717.779,"end":729.152,"text":"那你也跟你本來想要防止脫產這件事情是有備的啦因為實際上他不是為了脫產目的那這種部分的話真的不能再推來推去拜託研擬出一個方式來解決這個問題以上謝謝"}]}}}}