{"id":152416,"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152416","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/d7e25ee5d31e17343abc352e91e219ffa2603b6fafef9a002d94006c6d412c4d4159dd19c61a0ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:55:07 - 10:04:27","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-05-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-13","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-19"},"duration":560,"end_time":"2024-05-13T10:04:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-13T09:55:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":245,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時55分）謝謝主席，麻煩請外交部田次長及國安局徐副局長。"],["主席：請二位。"],["田次長中光：馬委員早。"],["馬委員文君：次長早。次長，這一段時間以來，對於外交的事務，其實大家都非常關注，尤其是在520即將到來之前，可能在整個國際局勢以及我們周邊臺海局勢，大家都非常的關注，但我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨，首先想要請教田次長，「恁爸」一般的意義是什麼？就你的理解。"],["田次長中光：這是非常接地氣的一個語言，我的認為是這樣子，在民間常常用這句話，民間用這句話，我的理解是這樣子，我可能錯，因為我的臺語不怎麼「輾轉」。"],["馬委員文君：對，這個很接地氣……"],["田次長中光：我沒有用過。"],["馬委員文君：我也沒有用過啦，我第一次講耶！"],["田次長中光：講得很好。"],["馬委員文君：這個用語是接地氣沒有錯，可是在用法上會用在哪裡？就是我很高高在上、我很高傲、我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣？這個是什麼樣的？就你的理解。"],["田次長中光：語言的……"],["馬委員文君：正確的理解，因為你是外交出身，請就正確的理解。"],["田次長中光：我必須說明，我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講，但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷，以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上，現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子，我可能有錯誤，請原諒，不過……"],["馬委員文君：謝謝，你難怪可以在外交部，而且今天可以代表前來參加。可是外交部就這個部分，我要再一次提醒，今天如果是我們一般人可以用這樣的用詞，但外交人員的遣詞用句一般來說都是非常精準的，那個已經不是稱兄道弟，今天如果是在國際的場合上，你的運用其實是要比一般人還更精準的，今天如果是用在國內或者是對於國人，甚至是對於國會的議員，那麼在外交的訓練上可能有需要去做非常大的檢討，今天不是外交部長在這裡，不然可能要詢問的是他。你說稱兄道弟，那是你說的，你說你的臺語不好，但你還可以幫他詮釋得那麼好，也是不簡單啦。不過我們現在要講的是，今天如果我們外交會失敗，就是因為這樣，過去在外交上的遣詞用句或者在任何場合的發言，都應該要拿捏分寸，他應該在什麼時候要做什麼樣的事情、說什麼樣的話，這是非常重要的，今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家，今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人，你在外交的條件上面或者你的身分上面，尤其是一個部長，對於這個應該更重視，未來會更高升，他的面向會更廣，這個部分我認為是有非常嚴重的瑕疵，在這裡我要提醒一下。","今天我接下來要問的，剛剛也有委關切到現在的立陶宛，剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法，可是在第一階段的選舉中，現任總統瑙塞達已經贏了第一輪，接下來他很可能還是會繼續當選立陶宛的總統，如果他在新任期內有可能改變我們代表處的名稱，也就是從臺灣改成臺北，我們會怎麼樣因應或是會有什麼樣的作法？或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待？"],["田次長中光：跟委員先做一個報告，當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府的磋商……"],["馬委員文君：沒有關係，現在我們說未來，因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣，我們現在是說，還是同一個人嘛，可是他的作法已經改變了，那是因為什麼樣的變化呢？是我們做得不夠、我們給得不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化？中共施加的壓力當然也是會有，或者是威脅利誘等等各方面，我們不知道，可是就這個方面，我們應該要怎麼面對？我的問題是說，我們應該怎麼樣去看待、怎麼樣去面對，或者我們有什麼樣的應處作法？"],["田次長中光：在12號的時候，瑙塞達接受媒體的訪問，媒體已經問他這個問題，他的回答……"],["馬委員文君：沒關係啦，我是說他如果再當選了，他如果這麼做，不要去推測他的一個說法或態度是什麼，我說的是他很可能繼續當選，那我們會怎麼做？"],["田次長中光：他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題，那我們的立場是非常堅定的。"],["馬委員文君：他如果還是一樣堅持呢？"],["田次長中光：其實我不應該回答，這種假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答，但是……"],["馬委員文君：你不是不想回答或你不用回答，對於立陶宛，我們花了多少的國家預算，用了人民的納稅錢，然後跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係，對此還做了大內宣，然後你現在說這個是假設性的問題，今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的、曾經花的錢，你做過的努力，現在有可能會有變化，對此你應該要怎麼樣因應跟應對，這個怎麼會是你不應該回答？"],["田次長中光：委員，我剛才已經報告過，如果他提出來，那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談。"],["馬委員文君：如果不行呢？如果不行呢？就像丹麥一樣啊，丹麥讓我們對於國籍名稱完全沒有選項，除了香港、澳門，還有一個就是中國，我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個，你們到現在沒有一個答案！當然丹麥方面可以做這樣的一個處置，畢竟我們跟它沒有邦交，我們也沒有太大的話語權。但是立陶宛不太一樣，我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國，因為那時候我們的邦交國認為我們厚此薄彼，對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多，所以也憤而跟我們斷交，這是理由之一。第二個，我們那時候提供了很多的優惠，不管是生技，不管是半導體還是太陽能的技術，我們提供了很多很多的資源，甚至買了它的紅酒，做了很多很多的付出，我們換到了一個臺灣的代表處，可是現在如果沒有了，在這麼短的時間，而且還是同一個總統的情況之下，你必須對國人有一個交代，不要再拿中共當理由。他在第一次讓我們用臺灣代表處這個名稱的時候中共也在啊，也存在啊，他的壓力也存在啊，他的威脅也存在啊，那時候可以，未來如果不行，你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由或者應處的作為，不要邦交國一直丟了也沒關係，然後對於新的，我們花了很多的資源、用了很多的心力，然後他變更了也沒關係，我們不是跟他建交喔，他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已，後來英文還改成Taiwanese，這個到底是什麼樣的一個作法，要給國人一個交代。"],["田次長中光：是的。"],["馬委員文君：這是我們在外交上你們自己的作為，我們大家一直在支持，雖然你丟了那麼多的邦交國，為什麼大家沒有太多的責難？是因為外交大家是一致的，是對外的，可是當你對外、對其他的國家可以付出很多，可以用很多微軟的聲音，微軟就是比較柔和的態度，可是對於國內態度之強硬，然後不管是告啦、罵啦，連「恁爸」都出來了，像這樣的作法，我覺得這不是一個外交部或者相關外交人員應該做的事。你對外要爭取我們自己的國格，當我們被欺負或者我們付出被當「盤子」的時候，你們不敢講話，可是當我們在質疑的時候，我們是為所有的國人質疑，你們卻高高在上，卻可以大聲的去斥責，這是非常可笑的，所以我今天在這裡特別提出來。","來不及詢問我們國安單位了，相關的如果有必要，我們禮拜四國安單位再排一次好了，謝謝。"],["田次長中光：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。下一位請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":384,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-19","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","徐巧芯","黃仁","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","王定宇","陳培瑜","林憶君","賴士葆","邱志偉","洪申翰","王鴻薇"],"page_start":329,"meetingDate":["2024-05-13"],"gazette_id":"1134401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134401_00013"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第19次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局、外交部報告「大陸領導人習近平訪歐後國際關係變化對我國安之影響」，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1134401_00008"}},"transcript":{"id":"152416","pyannote":{"name":"ronny","tool":"pyannote","data":{"url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152416","tool":"pyannote","id":"152416-pyannote"},"job_id":"ml3meI1Chimuutd9","queued_at":"2024-05-31 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00:00:42,675\n馬委員早次長早次長我想要先請教一下因為這幾天可能這一段時間以來對於外交的事務上面其實大家也都非常關注尤其在520即將到來之前那可能在整個國際局勢還有我們周邊台海局勢大家也都非常的關注那我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨\n\n3\n00:00:43,775 --> 00:00:48,596\n我想要請教田次長您背一般的意義是什麼?就你的理解這是非常接地氣的一個語言,我的認為是這樣子在民間常常用這句話民間用這句話,我的理解是這樣子我可能錯,因為台語沒什麼認證我沒有用過我也沒有用過,我第一次講\n\n4\n00:01:16,187 --> 00:01:31,804\n這個一般它是接地氣沒有錯可是它的用法上面它會用在哪裡就是我很高高在上我很高傲我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣還是我這個是什麼樣的就你的理解\n\n5\n00:01:35,199 --> 00:01:55,085\n我必須說我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子我可能有錯誤請原諒\n\n6\n00:01:58,066 --> 00:02:12,635\n謝謝你難怪可以在外交部而且今天可以代表前來參加可是外交部就這個部分因為我要再一次提醒今天如果是我們一般人你可以這樣的用詞\n\n7\n00:02:14,116 --> 00:02:27,158\n尤其是外交人員你們的潛質用具其實一般來說都是非常精準的那個已經不是稱兄道弟你今天不管是在國際的場合上面\n\n8\n00:02:28,439 --> 00:02:28,519\n馬文君\n\n9\n00:02:47,847 --> 00:03:00,518\n有需要去做非常大的檢討。今天不是外交部長在這裡,不然其實可能要詢問的是他。你說稱雙到底,那是你說的,你說你的台語不好,你還可以把它替他詮釋到這麼好,也是不簡單。不過,我們現在要講的是,今天如果我們外交會失敗,就是因為這樣。\n\n10\n00:03:10,509 --> 00:03:28,254\n你今天過去外交的潛質用具或者任何的場合他都應該要拿捏分寸他應該什麼時候應該要做什麼樣的事情說什麼樣的話這是非常重要的今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人\n\n11\n00:03:29,474 --> 00:03:53,711\n你在外交的一個條件上面或者你的身份上面尤其是一個部長其實這個應該更重視因為未來會更高深他的面向會更廣這個部分我認為這個是有非常嚴重的瑕疵在這裡我要提醒一下所以今天我們接下來要問的我想要請教剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的立陶宛剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法\n\n12\n00:03:59,602 --> 00:04:02,664\n可是現在第一階段現任的總統,叫什麼?納賽達納賽達其實他已經贏過第一輪了那接下來他很可能還是會繼續蕩選立陶宛的總統那如果在他的新的任期有可能改變就是把我們的代表處從台灣變成台北那我們會怎麼樣因應或會有什麼樣的做法或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待\n\n13\n00:04:30,503 --> 00:04:47,292\n跟委員先做一個報告當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府沒有關係現在我們說未來因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣我們現在是說還是同一個人可是他的做法已經改變了\n\n14\n00:04:47,912 --> 00:05:03,356\n那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化它跟中共當然它的壓力也是會有或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法\n\n15\n00:05:11,043 --> 00:05:12,444\n他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢?\n\n16\n00:05:39,590 --> 00:05:46,475\n其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對\n\n17\n00:06:08,752 --> 00:06:10,354\n委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門\n\n18\n00:06:27,049 --> 00:06:31,371\n還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為\n\n19\n00:06:53,513 --> 00:07:21,922\n我們厚恥薄筆對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處\n\n20\n00:07:22,802 --> 00:07:38,643\n可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊\n\n21\n00:07:39,364 --> 00:07:52,129\n也存在啊,他的壓力也存在啊,他的威脅也存在啊,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不要邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese\n\n22\n00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:20,673\n這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的\n\n23\n00:08:20,953 --> 00:08:30,939\n可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外\n\n","tsv":"start\tend\ttext\n450\t5906\t謝謝主席,麻煩請外交部田次長還有我們國安局徐副局長請兩位\n14505\t42675\t馬委員早次長早次長我想要先請教一下因為這幾天可能這一段時間以來對於外交的事務上面其實大家也都非常關注尤其在520即將到來之前那可能在整個國際局勢還有我們周邊台海局勢大家也都非常的關注那我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨\n43775\t48596\t我想要請教田次長您背一般的意義是什麼?就你的理解這是非常接地氣的一個語言,我的認為是這樣子在民間常常用這句話民間用這句話,我的理解是這樣子我可能錯,因為台語沒什麼認證我沒有用過我也沒有用過,我第一次講\n76187\t91804\t這個一般它是接地氣沒有錯可是它的用法上面它會用在哪裡就是我很高高在上我很高傲我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣還是我這個是什麼樣的就你的理解\n95199\t115085\t我必須說我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子我可能有錯誤請原諒\n118066\t132635\t謝謝你難怪可以在外交部而且今天可以代表前來參加可是外交部就這個部分因為我要再一次提醒今天如果是我們一般人你可以這樣的用詞\n134116\t147158\t尤其是外交人員你們的潛質用具其實一般來說都是非常精準的那個已經不是稱兄道弟你今天不管是在國際的場合上面\n148439\t148519\t馬文君\n167847\t180518\t有需要去做非常大的檢討。今天不是外交部長在這裡,不然其實可能要詢問的是他。你說稱雙到底,那是你說的,你說你的台語不好,你還可以把它替他詮釋到這麼好,也是不簡單。不過,我們現在要講的是,今天如果我們外交會失敗,就是因為這樣。\n190509\t208254\t你今天過去外交的潛質用具或者任何的場合他都應該要拿捏分寸他應該什麼時候應該要做什麼樣的事情說什麼樣的話這是非常重要的今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人\n209474\t233711\t你在外交的一個條件上面或者你的身份上面尤其是一個部長其實這個應該更重視因為未來會更高深他的面向會更廣這個部分我認為這個是有非常嚴重的瑕疵在這裡我要提醒一下所以今天我們接下來要問的我想要請教剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的立陶宛剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法\n239602\t242664\t可是現在第一階段現任的總統,叫什麼?納賽達納賽達其實他已經贏過第一輪了那接下來他很可能還是會繼續蕩選立陶宛的總統那如果在他的新的任期有可能改變就是把我們的代表處從台灣變成台北那我們會怎麼樣因應或會有什麼樣的做法或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待\n270503\t287292\t跟委員先做一個報告當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府沒有關係現在我們說未來因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣我們現在是說還是同一個人可是他的做法已經改變了\n287912\t303356\t那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化它跟中共當然它的壓力也是會有或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法\n311043\t312444\t他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢?\n339590\t346475\t其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對\n368752\t370354\t委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門\n387049\t391371\t還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為\n413513\t441922\t我們厚恥薄筆對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處\n442802\t458643\t可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊\n459364\t472129\t也存在啊,他的壓力也存在啊,他的威脅也存在啊,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不要邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese\n484640\t500673\t這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的\n500953\t510939\t可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外\n529991\t559923\t謝謝\n","txt":"謝謝主席,麻煩請外交部田次長還有我們國安局徐副局長請兩位\n馬委員早次長早次長我想要先請教一下因為這幾天可能這一段時間以來對於外交的事務上面其實大家也都非常關注尤其在520即將到來之前那可能在整個國際局勢還有我們周邊台海局勢大家也都非常的關注那我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨\n我想要請教田次長您背一般的意義是什麼?就你的理解這是非常接地氣的一個語言,我的認為是這樣子在民間常常用這句話民間用這句話,我的理解是這樣子我可能錯,因為台語沒什麼認證我沒有用過我也沒有用過,我第一次講\n這個一般它是接地氣沒有錯可是它的用法上面它會用在哪裡就是我很高高在上我很高傲我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣還是我這個是什麼樣的就你的理解\n我必須說我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子我可能有錯誤請原諒\n謝謝你難怪可以在外交部而且今天可以代表前來參加可是外交部就這個部分因為我要再一次提醒今天如果是我們一般人你可以這樣的用詞\n尤其是外交人員你們的潛質用具其實一般來說都是非常精準的那個已經不是稱兄道弟你今天不管是在國際的場合上面\n馬文君\n有需要去做非常大的檢討。今天不是外交部長在這裡,不然其實可能要詢問的是他。你說稱雙到底,那是你說的,你說你的台語不好,你還可以把它替他詮釋到這麼好,也是不簡單。不過,我們現在要講的是,今天如果我們外交會失敗,就是因為這樣。\n你今天過去外交的潛質用具或者任何的場合他都應該要拿捏分寸他應該什麼時候應該要做什麼樣的事情說什麼樣的話這是非常重要的今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人\n你在外交的一個條件上面或者你的身份上面尤其是一個部長其實這個應該更重視因為未來會更高深他的面向會更廣這個部分我認為這個是有非常嚴重的瑕疵在這裡我要提醒一下所以今天我們接下來要問的我想要請教剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的立陶宛剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法\n可是現在第一階段現任的總統,叫什麼?納賽達納賽達其實他已經贏過第一輪了那接下來他很可能還是會繼續蕩選立陶宛的總統那如果在他的新的任期有可能改變就是把我們的代表處從台灣變成台北那我們會怎麼樣因應或會有什麼樣的做法或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待\n跟委員先做一個報告當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府沒有關係現在我們說未來因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣我們現在是說還是同一個人可是他的做法已經改變了\n那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化它跟中共當然它的壓力也是會有或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法\n他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢?\n其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對\n委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門\n還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為\n我們厚恥薄筆對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處\n可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊\n也存在啊,他的壓力也存在啊,他的威脅也存在啊,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不要邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese\n這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的\n可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外\n謝謝\n","vtt":"WEBVTT\n\n00:00.450 --> 00:05.906\n謝謝主席,麻煩請外交部田次長還有我們國安局徐副局長請兩位\n\n00:14.505 --> 00:42.675\n馬委員早次長早次長我想要先請教一下因為這幾天可能這一段時間以來對於外交的事務上面其實大家也都非常關注尤其在520即將到來之前那可能在整個國際局勢還有我們周邊台海局勢大家也都非常的關注那我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨\n\n00:43.775 --> 00:48.596\n我想要請教田次長您背一般的意義是什麼?就你的理解這是非常接地氣的一個語言,我的認為是這樣子在民間常常用這句話民間用這句話,我的理解是這樣子我可能錯,因為台語沒什麼認證我沒有用過我也沒有用過,我第一次講\n\n01:16.187 --> 01:31.804\n這個一般它是接地氣沒有錯可是它的用法上面它會用在哪裡就是我很高高在上我很高傲我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣還是我這個是什麼樣的就你的理解\n\n01:35.199 --> 01:55.085\n我必須說我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子我可能有錯誤請原諒\n\n01:58.066 --> 02:12.635\n謝謝你難怪可以在外交部而且今天可以代表前來參加可是外交部就這個部分因為我要再一次提醒今天如果是我們一般人你可以這樣的用詞\n\n02:14.116 --> 02:27.158\n尤其是外交人員你們的潛質用具其實一般來說都是非常精準的那個已經不是稱兄道弟你今天不管是在國際的場合上面\n\n02:28.439 --> 02:28.519\n馬文君\n\n02:47.847 --> 03:00.518\n有需要去做非常大的檢討。今天不是外交部長在這裡,不然其實可能要詢問的是他。你說稱雙到底,那是你說的,你說你的台語不好,你還可以把它替他詮釋到這麼好,也是不簡單。不過,我們現在要講的是,今天如果我們外交會失敗,就是因為這樣。\n\n03:10.509 --> 03:28.254\n你今天過去外交的潛質用具或者任何的場合他都應該要拿捏分寸他應該什麼時候應該要做什麼樣的事情說什麼樣的話這是非常重要的今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人\n\n03:29.474 --> 03:53.711\n你在外交的一個條件上面或者你的身份上面尤其是一個部長其實這個應該更重視因為未來會更高深他的面向會更廣這個部分我認為這個是有非常嚴重的瑕疵在這裡我要提醒一下所以今天我們接下來要問的我想要請教剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的立陶宛剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法\n\n03:59.602 --> 04:02.664\n可是現在第一階段現任的總統,叫什麼?納賽達納賽達其實他已經贏過第一輪了那接下來他很可能還是會繼續蕩選立陶宛的總統那如果在他的新的任期有可能改變就是把我們的代表處從台灣變成台北那我們會怎麼樣因應或會有什麼樣的做法或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待\n\n04:30.503 --> 04:47.292\n跟委員先做一個報告當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府沒有關係現在我們說未來因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣我們現在是說還是同一個人可是他的做法已經改變了\n\n04:47.912 --> 05:03.356\n那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化它跟中共當然它的壓力也是會有或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法\n\n05:11.043 --> 05:12.444\n他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢?\n\n05:39.590 --> 05:46.475\n其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對\n\n06:08.752 --> 06:10.354\n委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門\n\n06:27.049 --> 06:31.371\n還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為\n\n06:53.513 --> 07:21.922\n我們厚恥薄筆對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處\n\n07:22.802 --> 07:38.643\n可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊\n\n07:39.364 --> 07:52.129\n也存在啊,他的壓力也存在啊,他的威脅也存在啊,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不要邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese\n\n08:04.640 --> 08:20.673\n這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的\n\n08:20.953 --> 08:30.939\n可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外\n\n","segments":[{"start":0.45,"end":5.906,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩請外交部田次長還有我們國安局徐副局長請兩位"},{"start":14.505,"end":42.675,"text":"馬委員早次長早次長我想要先請教一下因為這幾天可能這一段時間以來對於外交的事務上面其實大家也都非常關注尤其在520即將到來之前那可能在整個國際局勢還有我們周邊台海局勢大家也都非常的關注那我想先請教我們自己國內近期發生的一些風風雨雨"},{"start":43.775,"end":48.596,"text":"我想要請教田次長您背一般的意義是什麼?就你的理解這是非常接地氣的一個語言,我的認為是這樣子在民間常常用這句話民間用這句話,我的理解是這樣子我可能錯,因為台語沒什麼認證我沒有用過我也沒有用過,我第一次講"},{"start":76.187,"end":91.804,"text":"這個一般它是接地氣沒有錯可是它的用法上面它會用在哪裡就是我很高高在上我很高傲我的地位比較高還是怎麼樣還是我這個是什麼樣的就你的理解"},{"start":95.199,"end":115.085,"text":"我必須說我對語言的研究實在是不夠在這裡講但是語言是根據時代不同在變遷以前我們聽起來覺得這可能是高高在上現在聽起來可能是我們兄弟的意思或者這樣子我可能有錯誤請原諒"},{"start":118.066,"end":132.635,"text":"謝謝你難怪可以在外交部而且今天可以代表前來參加可是外交部就這個部分因為我要再一次提醒今天如果是我們一般人你可以這樣的用詞"},{"start":134.116,"end":147.158,"text":"尤其是外交人員你們的潛質用具其實一般來說都是非常精準的那個已經不是稱兄道弟你今天不管是在國際的場合上面"},{"start":148.439,"end":148.519,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":167.847,"end":180.518,"text":"有需要去做非常大的檢討。今天不是外交部長在這裡,不然其實可能要詢問的是他。你說稱雙到底,那是你說的,你說你的台語不好,你還可以把它替他詮釋到這麼好,也是不簡單。不過,我們現在要講的是,今天如果我們外交會失敗,就是因為這樣。"},{"start":190.509,"end":208.254,"text":"你今天過去外交的潛質用具或者任何的場合他都應該要拿捏分寸他應該什麼時候應該要做什麼樣的事情說什麼樣的話這是非常重要的今天不管你喜不喜歡這個國家今天不管你喜不喜歡這個人"},{"start":209.474,"end":233.711,"text":"你在外交的一個條件上面或者你的身份上面尤其是一個部長其實這個應該更重視因為未來會更高深他的面向會更廣這個部分我認為這個是有非常嚴重的瑕疵在這裡我要提醒一下所以今天我們接下來要問的我想要請教剛剛也有委員關切到我們現在的立陶宛剛剛您說那是他在選舉過程的說法"},{"start":239.602,"end":242.664,"text":"可是現在第一階段現任的總統,叫什麼?納賽達納賽達其實他已經贏過第一輪了那接下來他很可能還是會繼續蕩選立陶宛的總統那如果在他的新的任期有可能改變就是把我們的代表處從台灣變成台北那我們會怎麼樣因應或會有什麼樣的做法或者我們應該要怎麼樣看待"},{"start":270.503,"end":287.292,"text":"跟委員先做一個報告當時這個名稱的成立是經過兩國政府沒有關係現在我們說未來因為那時候在我們國內也做了很多的大內宣我們現在是說還是同一個人可是他的做法已經改變了"},{"start":287.912,"end":303.356,"text":"那是有什麼樣的變化或我們做的不夠我們給的不夠多還是有什麼樣的變化它跟中共當然它的壓力也是會有或者它的威脅力又有各方面我們不知道可是就這個方面我們應該要怎麼面對我說的我的問題是說我們應該怎麼樣去看待怎麼樣去面對或者我們有什麼樣的應處的做法"},{"start":311.043,"end":312.444,"text":"他必須跟我們兩國的政府再來談這個問題那我們的立場是非常堅定的那他如果還是一樣堅持呢?"},{"start":339.59,"end":346.475,"text":"其實我不應該回答這樣這假設性的問題其實我真的不想回答你不是不想回答或你不用回答這個是你立陶宛我們花了多少的國家的預算你用了人民的納稅錢然後你跟大家說我們跟他建立非常好的關係然後你做了大內宣以後你說現在是假設性的問題今天我們在國會問的就是你過去曾經做的曾經花的錢你做過的努力你應該要怎麼樣去因應跟應對"},{"start":368.752,"end":370.354,"text":"委員我剛才已經報告過如果他提出來那麼我們兩國政府還會再就這個問題來談如果不行呢就像丹麥一樣丹麥把我們的國籍的名稱我們完全沒有選項除了香港還有澳門"},{"start":387.049,"end":391.371,"text":"還有一個就是中國我們中華民國的國民到底應該要選哪一個你們到現在沒有一個答案當然這是丹麥他們方面可以做這樣的一個處置可是我們跟他雖然沒有邦交我們也沒有太大的話語權立陶宛不太一樣我們為了立陶宛甚至可能失去了一個邦交國那時候因為我們的邦交國認為"},{"start":413.513,"end":441.922,"text":"我們厚恥薄筆對於非邦交國給的利益或者給的好處更多所以也憤而跟我們斷交這是理由之一第二個我們那時候提供了很多的優惠不管是生技不管是我們的半導體還是我們的太陽能的這樣的一個技術我們提供了很多很多的資源甚至買了他的紅酒做了很多很多的付出我們換了一個台灣的代表處"},{"start":442.802,"end":458.643,"text":"可是現在如果他沒有了在這麼短的時間而且還同一個總統的情況之下你必須對我們國人有一個交代不要再拿中共當理由他在第一次跟我們用台灣代表處的時候中共也在啊"},{"start":459.364,"end":472.129,"text":"也存在啊,他的壓力也存在啊,他的威脅也存在啊,那時候可以,未來如果不行,你們必須要給國人一個充分的理由,或者應處的作為,不要邦交國一直丟了也沒關係,然後新的我們一直花了很多的資源,用了很多的心力,然後他又變更了也沒關係,我們不是跟他建交喔,他只是用了一個代表處的名稱而已,後來英文還改成Taiwanese"},{"start":484.64,"end":500.673,"text":"這個到底是什麼樣的一個做法要給國人一個交代這是我們的外交上面你們自己的作為我們大家一直在支持雖然你丟了那麼多邦交國為什麼大家沒有太多的責難是因為外交大家是一致的是對外的"},{"start":500.953,"end":510.939,"text":"可是當你對外對其他的國家你可以付出很多可以用很多微軟的聲音微軟就是比較柔和的態度可是對於國內態度之強硬然後不管是告啦罵啦拎杯啦都出來了像這樣子的做法我覺得這個不是一個外交的外交部或者相關的外交人員應該做的事你對外"},{"start":529.991,"end":559.923,"text":"謝謝"}]}}}}